# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  Our eggs have arrived AGAIN!

## zmzfam

Dear people,

As from this thread, Overseas Eggs Order?, these are the people who had received their eggs/frys on 20th May 2004.

*Au* 
_Nothobranchius kafuensis_ 'Nanzhila River' ZMTW 99 [in peat] 

*Pohsan* 
_Paraphyosemion mirabile moense_ 'Bakebe' HAH 98 (MOE) [in peat] 
_Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae_ 'Tinto' CI-03[in breather bag]

*Jianyang* aka Stormhawk 
_Simpsonicthys zonatus_ (ZNT) [in peat]

*Gan(turaco)* 
_Paraphyosemion mirabile moense_ 'Nguti' HAH 98(MOE) [in peat]

*Kwek Leong* 
_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nange Eboko' (ELB) [in breather bag]

*Ronnie Lee* 
_Aphyosemion dargei_ 'Mbam' (DAR) [in breather bag]
_Chromaphyosemion poliaki_ 'Ekona' CI-01 (PLK) [in peat]
_Chromaphyosemion splendopluere_ 'Bamukong Ombe River Sys.' 1999 (SPP) [in peat]
_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nnen' (ELB) [in breather bag]
_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Ndouzem' (ELB) [in breather bag]

*RongSheng* 
_Aphyosemion christyi_ 'Lobaye' (CHR) [in peat]

*Zulkifli* 
_Aphyosemion coeleste_ 'GBG 93-2' (COL) [in breather bag]
_Aphyosemion gabunense marginatum_ 'Bifoun' (MRG) [in breather bag]
_Callopanchax occidentale_ 'Mangata' GM 97/3 (OCC) [in peat]
_Rivulus agilae_ 'Mont de Mahury' (AGI) [in breather bag]


David included some extra eggs for the participants of the 1st mass order and the eggs are:

_Aphyosemion australe_ BWSG 97 / 24 'Port Gentil' [*Zulkifli*][in peat]
_Aphyosemion sp.aff. primigenium_ GBN 88-10 [*Rashid*] [in breather bag]

_Rivulus derhami_ 'Tingo Maria' [*Kwek Leong*] [in breather bag]
_Rivulus xiphidius_ 'Crique Boulanger' [*Eric Yeo*] [in breather bag]

_Paraphyosemion gardneri_ 'Lafia' [*Rongsheng / Lily*] [in breather bag]

Please do update the progress of the eggs/frys in this thread, whether you are successful in raising them up or something happened to them. In this way, we will all know what happened and try to learn something along the way.
If you managed to breed them, all the better and we will know what are the species that is available in SG. In future, if there is anymore mass order, we will know what species not to bring in.


**Updated on 29 May 2004 based on this thread http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=577

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## turaco

Here's a question possibly someone can answer: According to David's site, the *Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Nguti*' incubation period is 5-8 weeks in peat with temp range 68-74F(Err.. what's that in degree C? Return all these school-days knowledge to my teacher already  :Opps: ). With Singapore HOT weather(Especially this May  :Neutral:  30-33C? ), how long, as a rough estimation, should I incubation the eggs? 

As for the other 5 free swimming fry of the same species, I'm so glad to see them this big, which means they can start off with bbs without problem :wink: . Would like to thank Zul for his great job that we are able to get our beloved fish that fast. Look forward to exchange in months time guys!

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## PohSan

Hi Gan,
According to this calculator : http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm

68-74F is equals to 20 to 23.33 degree C. Me too has a problem estimating the inculation period. So I keep it in my office which has 24 hour air-con at 25 degree C. 

Next, my update on my order:
1) Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Bakebe' (MOE) [in peat] 
Still under incubation. 

2) Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae 'Tinto' [in breather bag] 
7 fry so far.


Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## RonWill

Gan,
_Paraphyosemion_ / _Fundulopanchax_ eggs can be incubated either in water or peat. Water incubation is usually faster and to take an example, I collected 2 mops from Fp. GAR N'sukka on May 7th and today, Jian Yang scooped out about 15 fry (he lost count after that  :Rolling Eyes:  ) The period in this case was 2 weeks.

IME, when I was maintaining N'sukka and Baissa, I observed that Baissa incubation is slightly longer, probably by 1~1½ week.

With our weather, I'd be tempted to dunk the peat in 6 weeks. Personally, I'll just water incubate *now* (as I did with my other eggs in peat), in case I miss the hatching window. When were these 'Nguti' eggs collected?

Although I've not done a fry-count, I concur with Gan that it's very encouraging to see large healthy fry that don't need infusoria, microworms or paramecium.

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## RonWill

Hi all, here's my mini update on the eggs. Fry count as on May 22nd.

_Aphyosemion dargei_ 'Mbam' (DAR) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 9 fry*

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nnen' (ELB) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 17 fry****

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Ndouzem' (ELB) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 19 fry****

_Aphyosemion poliaki_ 'Ekona' (PLK) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*1 fry*

_Chromaphyosemion splendopluere_ 'Bamukong Ombe' (SPP) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry*

*RongSheng* 
_Aphyosemion christyi_ 'Lobaye' (CHR) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 12. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry*

*Replacement egg* _Paraphyosemion gardneri_ 'Lafia' *[Rongsheng / Lily]* *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 10 fry*

*Won Bid* _Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nange Eboko' (ELB) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry*

*Won Bid* _Chrom splendopluere_ 'Tiko' (SPP) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 12~15th. Peat dunked 040520
*7 fry*

***There was a shortfall of 'Bamukong Ombe' eggs but extra was packed into the ELBs to make up the difference. Since David didn't specify which ELB 'Nange Eboko' bag was mine, Kwek Leong, if you see more than a dozen eggs/fry, consider that a bonus for you.

I'll be updating as time allows but meanwhile, I couldn't help noticing fry count between breather and peat bag...

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## timebomb

> Since David didn't specify which ELB 'Nange Eboko' bag was mine, Kwek Leong, if you see more than a dozen eggs/fry, consider that a bonus for you.


Ronnie, there were only a dozen eggs in my bag of ELB 'Nange Eboko'. 

Last fry count as of the morning of 23rd May 04 - 

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nange Eboko' (ELB) - 8 living fry, 1 dead fry and 1 unhatched egg. 2 eggs disappeared? 

_Rivulus derhami_ 'Tingo Maria' - 2 very fat fry (they are huge and have been gorging on baby brine shrimps) and 10 unhatched eggs. The eggs are huge too and look like tadpole eggs. Here's a pic:



Loh K L

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## RonWill

oh well... I suppose one should be happy with a possible 9 out of 12 'Nange Eboko'. Isn't too bad and on the brighter side, if I get zilch, we can always swap :wink: 

When I first saw the 'Tingo Maria' eggs, I felt these looked larger than AUS eggs. Let's hope these grows faster than my Riv XIP!

Wonder how the rest are doing.

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## stormhawk

The ZNT eggs are not due yet I think. Can't see very well through the dark eggshell. These guys are unusually coloured. The eggs look like black marbles and that explains why I can't count them. Some are really coated with peat particles. I could see developing embryos when I used the candling method with my torchlight. According to an incubation guide that I took from a German site, the eggs aren't due for another week or so. Possible earliest date to dunk 'em would be somewhere in early June.. June 7 I think. Will update if any fry decide to appear.

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## timebomb

Jianyang,

I don't know if you are aware of this but incubation period guides from breeders living in other countries can be quite deceiving. Temperature is a big factor and over here, eggs hatch a lot earlier than those in colder countries. I would suggest you play safe and err on the early side. Wet the eggs earlier than what you guessed is the right time.

Loh K L

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## stormhawk

KL, the guide states that the ZNT eggs develop fully within 7 weeks at 27degC incubation temperature. Using that as a rough guide, the eggs aren't due for another week or so. The peat that they were in was pretty dry so to speak. That may affect the development of the embryos. Since the ambient temperature in my room is roughly around 28.6degC or so, I take that they will be due somewhat earlier. I will be wetting the peat again in 2 days time on Tuesday. Let's see what I'll be getting then. :wink:

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## RonWill

Ok folks, here's a quickie. Fry count as of midnite May 23rd.

_Aphyosemion dargei_ 'Mbam' (DAR) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 9 fry NO CHANGE*

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nnen' (ELB) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 17 fry NO CHANGE* ***

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Ndouzem' (ELB) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 19 fry NO CHANGE* ***

_Aphyosemion poliaki_ 'Ekona' (PLK) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*1 fry*
*040523 + 1 fry = 2 fry*

_Chromaphyosemion splendopluere_ 'Bamukong Ombe' (SPP) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry*
*040523 = 2 fry*

*RongSheng* 
_Aphyosemion christyi_ 'Lobaye' (CHR) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 12. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry*
*040523 = 8 fry*

*Replacement egg* _Paraphyosemion gardneri_ 'Lafia' *[Rongsheng / Lily]* *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 10 fry NO CHANGE*

*Won Bid* _Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nange Eboko' (ELB) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry NO CHANGE * 

*Won Bid* _Chrom splendopluere_ 'Tiko' (SPP) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 12~15th. Peat dunked 040520
*7 fry*
*040523 + 3 fry = 10 fry*

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## zmzfam

Hi people,

here's an update as of 23 May 2004 night:

_Aphyosemion coeleste_ 'GBG 93-2' (COL) [in breather bag]
No date info
*2 living frys, 3 dead frys, some eggs*

_Aphyosemion marginatum_ 'Bifoum' (MRG) [in breather bag]
No date info
*19 frys*

_Callopanchax occidentale_ 'Mangata' (OCC) [in peat]
still under incubation

_Rivulus agilae_ 'Mont de Mahury' (AGI) [in breather bag]
No date info
*21 frys*

*Replacement* _Aphyosemion australe_ BWSG 97 / 24 'Port Gentil' [in peat]
Collection May 16 - *still in peat*

[*Rashid*]
*Replacement* _Aphyosemion primigenium_ GBN 88-10 [in breather bag]
No date info
*5 frys, 8 eggs*

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## stormhawk

*Update on the ZNT:*

Counted 15 eyed-up eggs.. no more no less. Guess the other 15 went MIA during incubation.  :Sad:  Anyway, back to the update.

OK so I got pretty itchy and wetted the eggs last night around 2am or so.  :Rolling Eyes:  Learnt from a friend that zonatus require cooler temperatures to hatch so I figured why not do it at night since they're pretty much eyed-up already. Used cold water from the fridge plus some oxygen tabs. Sloshed the peat around a little bit and left it at a corner for the whole morning. Got pretty antsy but hey, I have to risk it anyway.  :Confused:  

Found 2 hatchlings this morning - 8.20am. They're still not free-swimming yet. Can still see their yolk sac. They're HUGE for Simp. fry and darn blackish too. Will take a pic soon. Oh boy am I happy...  :Very Happy:   :Laughing: 

_Simpsonichthys zonatus_ *(ZNT)* *[in peat]*
Collected: 12 April 04 Wetted: 25 May 04
*2 fry*

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## PohSan

Hi,
This is my mini update on the eggs:

1) Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Bakebe' (MOE) [in peat] 
Still under incubation. (13 eggs)

2) Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae 'Tinto' [in breather bag] 

1 dead fry 
1 fungus egg. 
7 living fry so far.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## stormhawk

Pohsan, when are the Bakebe eggs due? You should try checking the eggs. I didn't expect the ZNT to be due till next week or so. Read KL's post so I got itchy and wetted the eggs a week before they're supposedly due.

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## CM Media

*Eric Yeo*
Rivulus xiphidius 'Crique Boulanger' [in breather bag] 
1 Fry todate and 5 eggs under incubation


*Au* 
Notho. kafuensis 'Nanzhila River' ZMTW 99 [in peat] 
Still under incubation.

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## PohSan

Hi Jianyang,




> Pohsan, when are the Bakebe eggs due?


It was collected on 10th of May and indicated 6 to 8 weeks incubation period. Since I keep the egg in the office, I planned to wet them on 21st June 2004. 

Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## stormhawk

Pohsan, that's quite awhile. Oh well, gives you time to do other things. :wink: 

I must have made a mistake counting the eggs. Found alot more hatchling fry this time round!.  :Very Happy:   :Laughing:  :wink: Anyway here's the latest update.

*Update on the ZNT:*

_Simpsonichthys zonatus_ *(ZNT)* *[in peat]*
30 Eggs
Collected: 12 April 04 Wetted: 25 May 04
*8.20am - 2 fry*
*11.38am - +18 fry = 20 fry!*

Made a mistake. Only 20 fry so far, not 21. Must be eyes playing tricks.  :Opps:  Fry housed in 2 containers with 10 fry each. I'm not sure if they're ready to take BBS. In any case, I found 2 eyed-up eggs. Leaving them in the hatching tray for the time being. If they don't hatch by this evening then I'll rebag the peat for another wetting.

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## RonWill

Poh San, if you plan to wet the 'Bakebe' after the full 8 weeks, I suggest you check on them by the 6th week.

If 80% of the eggs are eyed-up, with well developed iris, it should be 'safe' to dunk.

Do remember that our warm weather shortens the incubation period esp since the past few weeks have been terribly hot!!, I'd hate to think you missed the 'hatching window'.

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## PohSan

Hi Ronnie,



> Poh San, if you plan to wet the 'Bakebe' after the full 8 weeks, I suggest you check on them by the 6th week.


I planned to wet it on 21st June, which is the 6th weeks after collection. I think it is quite safe since I keep it in my office where there are 24 hours air conditioning. 

Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## RonWill

For those who're following the outcome of the egg orders, here's my update, *indicated in blue*. Fry count as of morning May 26th.

_Aphyosemion dargei_ 'Mbam' (DAR) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 9 fry NO CHANGE*

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nnen' (ELB) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 17 fry NO CHANGE* ***

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Ndouzem' (ELB) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 19 fry NO CHANGE* ***

_Aphyosemion poliaki_ 'Ekona' (PLK) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*1 fry
040523 + 1 fry = 2 fry*
*040526 + 3 fry = 5 fry*

_Chromaphyosemion splendopluere_ 'Bamukong Ombe' (SPP) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry
040523 = 2 fry*

*RongSheng* 
_Aphyosemion christyi_ 'Lobaye' (CHR) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 12. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry
040523 = 8 fry*
*040526 + 1 fry = 9 fry*

*Replacement egg* _Paraphyosemion gardneri_ 'Lafia' *[Rongsheng / Lily]* *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 10 fry NO CHANGE*

*Won Bid* _Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nange Eboko' (ELB) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*040526 = 1 fry * 

*Won Bid* _Chrom splendopluere_ 'Tiko' (SPP) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 12~15th. Peat dunked 040520
*7 fry
040523 + 3 fry = 10 fry*
*040526 + 1 fry = 11 fry*

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## stormhawk

*Update on the ZNT:*

_Simpsonichthys zonatus_ *(ZNT)* *[in peat]*
30 Eggs
Collected: 12 April 04

*250504 - 23 fry*
270504 - 19 fry (1 casualty in fry container, 3 dead fry in hatching tray of which one was a stillbirth.. eggcase still attached..  :Crying: )

Fry doing very well at this moment. Just gorged themselves on BBS. Very fat and greedy fellas.  :Twisted Evil:

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## RonWill

Hi all,
Here's another fry count as of morning June 1st. *Updates in blue*.

_Aphyosemion dargei_ 'Mbam' (DAR) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 9 fry NO CHANGE*

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nnen' (ELB) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 17 fry NO CHANGE* 

_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Ndouzem' (ELB) *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 19 fry NO CHANGE* 

_Aphyosemion poliaki_ 'Ekona' (PLK) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*1 fry
040523 + 1 fry = 2 fry
040526 + 3 fry = 5 fry*
*040601 + 1 fry = 6 fry*

_Chromaphyosemion splendopluere_ 'Bamukong Ombe' (SPP) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry
040523 = 2 fry NO CHANGE*

*RongSheng* 
_Aphyosemion christyi_ 'Lobaye' (CHR) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 12. Peat dunked 040520
*0 fry
040523 = 8 fry
040526 + 1 fry = 9 fry NO CHANGE*

*Replacement egg* _Paraphyosemion gardneri_ 'Lafia' *[Rongsheng / Lily]* *[in breather bag]*
*No date info = 10 fry NO CHANGE*

*Won Bid* _Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nange Eboko' (ELB) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
*040526 + 1 fry = 1 fry*
*040601 + 1 belly slider = 2 fry * 


*Won Bid* _Chrom splendopluere_ 'Tiko' (SPP) *[in peat]*
Coll: May 12~15th. Peat dunked 040520
*7 fry
040523 + 3 fry = 10 fry
040526 + 1 fry = 11 fry*
*040601 + 3 'curly wurly' + 1 still birth fry = 14 fry*

David et al, what are the possible causes that prevents a hatchling from 'straightening up'? My incubation/hatching sequence is standardized and any insight is most appreciated.

*'Curly wurly' fry (Chrom splendopluere 'Tiko')*

Dead fry at right of pic  :Crying:

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## turaco

> *Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Nguti*' incubation period is 5-8 weeks in peat with temp range 68-74F...


Wet the peat in 3rd week(1st June). 6 fry hatched within 15-30mins :wink: . Together with those in breather bag, I have 9 fry.

Pohsan, you might consider wetting your 'Bakebe' early. I kept mine in air-con office too. Can't really tell if they have eyed up as the eggs are quite dark in colour.

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## PohSan

Hi Gan,
Thanks for the advice. I will be oversea from tomorrow to Sunday. I will wet them by the end of this week. 

Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## stormhawk

Here's an early pic of the Simp. zonatus fry. Ash grey in colour.

They changed colour from an ash grey base to a slightly clear colouration. Feeding well on a diet of daphnias and BBS.

Current fry count : 17 fry out of 23 that hatched.

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## zmzfam

Update:

_Aphyosemion coeleste_ 'GBG 93-2' (COL) [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - *2 living frys, 3 dead frys, some eggs*
25 May 2004 - *2 dead frys, 3 eggs fungus, 3 eggs left*
28 May 2004 - *No survivors, rest of eggs fungus*  :Crying:  

_Aphyosemion marginatum_ 'Bifoum' (MRG) [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - *19 frys*

_Callopanchax occidentale_ 'Mangata' (OCC) [in peat]
still under incubation

_Rivulus agilae_ 'Mont de Mahury' (AGI) [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - *21 frys*

*Replacement* _Aphyosemion australe_ BWSG 97 / 24 'Port Gentil' [in peat]
Collection May 16 - *still in peat*
26 May 2004 - *wetted peat*
27 May 2004 - *3 frys, deformed and dead a few hours later*
29 Jun 2004 - *5 eggs fungus*
02 June 2004 - *1 fry*


[*Rashid*]
*Replacement* _Aphyosemion primigenium_ GBN 88-10 [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - *5 frys, 8 eggs*
01 Jun 2004 - *5 frys, rest of eggs fungus*

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## stormhawk

Zul,

I may have an explanation for the loss of the coeleste fries. Was looking through the West African killie site and I read from the coeleste page that this species was found at an altitude of 400m above sea level. That's pretty high and the temperatures recorded during the dry season was roughly between 17 degC and 21 degC. It must have been our tropical climate that caused the deaths of the fry. Our temperatures here can fluctuate anywhere between a cool 24degC to 32degC when its really scorching. My 3ft tank has been registering a temp. of 26.8degC during cold nights and at least 29degC on warm nights.

From the breeding notes section,

_Not a prolific spawner. Best kept in cooler water (19-21degC)._

_Incubation in water takes 2-3 weeks but experiments with semi-dry storing have also shown limited success (probably no more than 3 weeks)._

Take pride that you had at least several fry to start with, Ron had a zero hatch the last time round with his COE. Maybe you need to start making a de Bruyn filter. :wink:

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## killifishdavid

David et al, what are the possible causes that prevents a hatchling from 'straightening up'? My incubation/hatching sequence is standardized and any insight is most appreciated. 


It sounds like there has been damage to the fishes central nervous system. I do not know why or how this could happen. I will share several 
conditions and practices that are normal here for me in my hatchery that seem to be apart from yours.

My hatchery runs a temperature of 19 to 23 degrees most all of the time.
Light levels are quite low through out the hatchery except in our near the planted tanks. Eggs of all species of killifish are either stored in or on top of moist peat, and left there until they are ready to hatch. I have rarely had good success in dunking peat with eggs of non annual or semi annual before they are ready to hatch. Sometimes I will wait until I see the first eggs hatch on top of the peat or look soft and squishy before wetting. Here in my cool hatchery most non annuals will wait for 3 weeks and up to 4 before I find I must wet them. Hatching on eggs that are fully developed is commenced all most immediatly to with in a few hours. I also do not dunk the peat with the eggs, but rather lift the eggs with tweezers from the peat and place them in hatching water. My hatching water is the tea or rinsings from boiled peatmoss and leaves from AuSL.
The water is very dark amber in color, as those of you who recieved the eggs in breather bags could see for your self.

I hope this may be of some help, but it appears to me from the results that sending eyed up eggs in my peat tea water is by far the best method for sending to you in Singapore. Eggs I send to Japan all most all ways are on top of peat in the petri dishes, with very good results. Shipping to China the dish method has similar results as yours in SG. To Europe and South America and Canada the dish method also seems to work well.

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## RonWill

> I have rarely had good success in dunking peat with eggs of non annual or semi annual before they are ready to hatch.


David, my observation of peat incubated eggs contradict yours and most, if not all, my peat-incubated eggs did poorly, regardless whether they were _australes_, _gardneri_ or even SJOs.

I usually water-incubate eggs together with the mops and the eggs from you are dunked with the peat, only because I don't spot eggs very well (excepting the fungused ones).

Your peat/ketapang shipping water has an approx pH of 4.5~5 (according to my Merck pH indicator strips) and the eggs, together with aged tap water, makes up the hatching water which is changed every 3 days or so, with more aged water. By the time hatchlings appear, the water they're hatched into is the same as the grow-out containers.




> I hope this may be of some help, but it appears to me from the results that sending eyed up eggs in my peat tea water is by far the best method for sending to you in Singapore.


I have no idea why this is so but we may be stating the obvious, if you can recall my repeated requests for all non-annuals eggs to be shipped in breathers, regardless whether it's mine or for fellow forum members.

For the latest order, there's no change with the 2 _elberti_ 'Nange Eboko' hatchlings (a distant cry from the 3 other ELB species shipped in breathers).

To refresh your memory and following up on the 1st attempt with breathers on 2 dozen Ap. BIT 'Ijebu Ode' developing eggs sent a while back. The result was 24 surviving fry. 12 were Lily's and she received them at about 1cm size. Unfortunately, she lost them in a water change.

My own dozen resulted in 4 trios, are about 2.5cm now and coloring up very nicely. Personally, I hated peat-packed eggs and frankly, David, I wouldn't want my orders sent any other way.

I was hoping to have more favorable numbers to show for the updates but it looks like there's nothing more to add.

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## PohSan

Dear all,
This is my update of the egg. I wet the 'Bakebe' egg on 8th June 2004 and 2 fry has hatched so far. 

1) Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Bakebe' (MOE) [13 eggs in peat] 
12 June 2004 - 2 fry

2) Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae 'Tinto' [in breather bag] 
1 dead fry 
1 fungus egg. 
8 living fry 
Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## zmzfam

Hi folks,

an update for the _Aphyosemion marginatum_ 'Bifoum':

_Aphyosemion marginatum_ 'Bifoum' (MRG) [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - *19 frys*
11 Jun 2004 - 11 frys - counted in the presence of Ronnie
21 Jun 2004 - 1 fry - in the presence of Ronnie also
22 Jun 2004 - existing fry dead

I passed the fry to Ronnie on the 11 June as I was going on a 1 week holiday. On collecting the frys, both of us (Ronnie and myself) were shocked to see only 1 fry left in the container. I'm not expressing my frustration about getting back only 1 fry and neither am I doubting Ron's capability in handling frys - if not I won't be getting back my original 21 Riv. agilae frys.

The problem is that the last existing fry had a bent spine. Unfortunately, I did not take any photos before the fry passed away. Anyway, I showed Ron the fry before bringing it back.

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## RonWill

> I'm not expressing my frustration about getting back only 1 fry and neither am I doubting Ron's capability in handling frys - if not I won't be getting back my original 21 Riv. agilae frys.
> 
> The problem is that the last existing fry had a bent spine. Unfortunately, I did not take any photos before the fry passed away. Anyway, I showed Ron the fry before bringing it back.


Zul, if you go look at the pics I uploaded to the *FryCount Gallery*, you'd understand why I'm not in a mood to count my fry. None of the 'curly wurly' fry that I *mention earlier* survived, plus, there were many others with spinal abnormalty.

Of the 11 ELB Nnen fry above; 8 are 'kinky'***, 1 is 'curly' and 2 is stunted  :Crying:   :Crying:  

 *ELB Ndouzem casualty*
Deformed fry won't survive long and even their 'kinkiness' are obvious when dead.

I couldn't, for the life of me, understand what happened since I go through the same routine with the other fry I'm currently outgrowing. Perhaps those more experienced than I can shed some light on what I'm doing wrong, please.

As the written word have a strange way of being misinterpreted these days, I'll let the pictures speak for themselves and leave the readers to arrive at their own conclusion.

I have little regrets in life but do feel sorry for Rong Sheng because his first attempt didn't go too well and this time, *all* his _Aphyosemion christyi_ 'Lobaye' were 'kinky' and none survive past 2 weeks. My eyes aren't as good and the fry were small, else I would have reported back sooner.

Although a glut for punishment, I still cringe at the thought of *zero* survivors for _Chrom splendopluere_ 'Tiko' and _A. dargei_ 'Mbam'.

<sigh...> Looks like I won't have many species to breed in the coming months  :Crying:  

*** 'Kinky' as in kinked spines (and nothing to do in bed!)

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## timebomb

Ronnie,

I checked my fish manual on kinked spines and it says there that's it probably due to either crossbreeding or environmental factors like metal toxins in the water and fluctuating temperatures. No mention is made of inbreeding. I think we can rule out crossbreeding and metal toxins but I'm not sure of fluctuating temperatures. It's pretty warm for us compared to where KillifishDavid lives but the temperature here does not fluctuate much. Heck, it's hot the whole year round. 

Thank goodness the fish I got from the last mass egg-buying exercise do not exhibit the same kinked bodies. I'll take some pictures and post them soon.

Loh K L

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## turaco

I have killies in office & home. Temperature in office is around 24C while home can be easily 28-30C. Over a period of a year, those in office(fry & adult) always last longer & give less problem compare to those at home. I'm afraid those curly fry are the result of our warm weather lately.

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## RonWill

Gan, I'm afraid I can't agree entirely with you on that. Of the 20 _A. striatum_ eggs you gave me, there're now 16 fry. 2 eggs went bad, 1 still-birth and 1 fry... urm... squirted out of the turkey baster and landed somewhere (and I couldn't find the sucker!) As of this morning, I still have 16 fry.  :Rolling Eyes:  

The water incubation period/hatching of these _striatum_ coincide with the new egg's arrival and all were incubated on the glass lid above my middle tank.

Round containers were used for growout and IIRC, did nothing out of the norm. I can understand if some fry are fragile/sensitive but not when it's almost across the board.

I really need time to think this one over. Anyone else would like to hazard a guess?

BTW if you want to add the 'degree-symbol' to the temp, eg 24C, press/hold the 'alt key' and type 0186 (zero one eight six) and release the 'alt key'. You'll end up with 24ºC! :wink:

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## hobbit6003

Hi Ron and all,

In my opinion, such developmental anomaly nearly right from the onset of birth, can only be due to a genetic predisposition. 

Whilst metal toxins can cause such a spinal deformities (both scoliosis and kyphosis), you'd probably find that some other concurrent batches of frys would have contained them, and not just to a certain batch/batches. 

Of course, if the frys are born alright and slowly develop spinal deformities, there're other considerations, such as nutrient deficiencies or disease (eg. fish TB).

As for fluctuation to water temp causing this, I've yet come across any literature mentioning such an occurence, nor can I think of how this can cause deformities to days old frys.

Kwek Leong, did the manual of yours mention if the fluctuation is a seasonal or a diurnal (day and night) fluctuation?

As for a genetic cause, such an inheritance of the so-called 'bad' genes, is usually due to excessive in-breeding, resulting in the expression of defective genes within a grossly diminished gene pool.

Cheers,

Kenny

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## timebomb

> Kwek Leong, did the manual of yours mention if the fluctuation is a seasonal or a diurnal (day and night) fluctuation?


Kenny,

I'm reproducing the text on "Development Problems and Hereditary Diseases" from my book, "The manual of fish health". It says:

_Caused by: Crossbreeding of certain strains of fish can give rise to fish with an abnormal appearance. Various types of environmental factors, including pollution with metals and pesticides, unsuitable temperatures and low oxygen levels, can also influence the development of eggs and young fish. Some tumours may be inherited from parent fish and certain deformities can be nutritional in origin.

Obvious symtoms: Symptoms vary tremendously, from abnormalities in coloration and unusual fins to missing eyes, deformed jaws and loss of swimbladder (producing so called "belly sliders"). Siamese twins is another manifestation of this sort of problem.

Occurence of the disease: These symptoms may occur when fishkeepers are crossing certain strains of fish, or when the eggs or fry are kept in unfavourable water conditions. Fluctuating temperatures can cause spine deformities in fish fry, for example, Siamese twins is a common abnormality of livebearing fish, one of the twins usually being very much smaller than the other. Adding chemicals to the water containing eggs or fry may alter their development, as may the presence of heavy metal toxins, such as copper or other pollutants._ 

Loh K L

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## RonWill

> ... still cringe at the thought of *zero* survivors for _Chrom splendopluere_ 'Tiko' and _A. dargei_ 'Mbam'.


Some corrections here... I *do* have survivors of the SPP 'Tiko', 8 fry as counted this afternoon. The stack was in the rear of the lowest rack and usually "what's out of sight, is out of mind"  :Opps:  



*'The Stacks'*


Many apologies.

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## hobbit6003

> *Fluctuating temperatures can cause spine deformities in fish fry*, 
> Loh K L


Hi Kwek Leong,

THanks for the info! Whose the author of the book?

Cheers,

Kenny

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## timebomb

Kenny,

The authors are Dr Chris Andrews, Adrian Exell and Dr Neville Carrington. I read the introduction and their credentials are impeccable. 

Loh K L

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## whuntley

> Hi Ron and all,
> 
> In my opinion, such developmental anomaly nearly right from the onset of birth, can only be due to a genetic predisposition.


My opinion tends to differ, Kenny. While there may be some tendency for one strain or collection to react more dramatically to external toxins or injury, deformities like those shown are usually induced by some external insult or hybridization (outcrossing, not inbreeding).




> Whilst metal toxins can cause such a spinal deformities (both scoliosis and kyphosis), you'd probably find that some other concurrent batches of frys would have contained them, and not just to a certain batch/batches. 
> 
> Of course, if the frys are born alright and slowly develop spinal deformities, there're other considerations, such as nutrient deficiencies or disease (eg. fish TB).
> 
> As for fluctuation to water temp causing this, I've yet come across any literature mentioning such an occurence, nor can I think of how this can cause deformities to days old frys.
> 
> Kwek Leong, did the manual of yours mention if the fluctuation is a seasonal or a diurnal (day and night) fluctuation?


Untergasser also says that keeping fish at the wrong temperature _or_ sudden fluctuations can cause injury like this.




> As for a genetic cause, such an inheritance of the so-called 'bad' genes, is usually due to excessive in-breeding, resulting in the expression of defective genes within a grossly diminished gene pool.


In killifish this is almost never a cause, IMHO. 95% of killifish are in such restricted locations and numbers that they are already highly inbred and defective genes have long since weeded themselves out. Inbreeding gets a bad name for mostly cultural reasons, but it is outcrossing (hybridization) that can induce the worst deformities, like parrot fish.

Inbreeding can certainly increase the expression frequency of a recessive defect, but that is a rarity in killifish. Such defects may arise spontaneously by mutation, but the effect is rarely a bent spine. Usually it is a color or pattern variation, or a reproductive failure of some kind, IME.

Inbreeding is a most useful tool for eliminating hybrid genes and for setting a desirable color or pattern. I sort of hate to see blanket condemnation of it among those making choices of brood stock. It is another useful tool for the breeder, when properly understood.

In our wild-type killies, I like to see maintenance of as broad a gene pool as is practical, so we keep them with what they started with as much as possible. Most went through a genetic bottleneck when collected and introduced. It behooves us to keep as much of what is left as we can.

We also have many "aquarium strains" so there are lots of species to tinker with, for those who have an uncontrolled desire to "improve" them.

Some select for albinism, and some go for a purer color or bigger fins. That doesn't happen very well, without deliberate inbreeding and line breeding. Those never _cause_ defects, and only very rarely cause an unexpected recessive to appear. Knowing it is present is the first step to eliminating it.

HTH

Wright

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## ruyle

Wright,
I would like to ask what has better insulation qualities from temperature
fluctuations: breather bags of water, or little petri dishes of moist peat?

Not knowing for sure, I would vote for the breather bags of water. I've
gotten eggs packed in 35mm film canisters with water that have yielded
100% hatch rate (Aplocheilus SRP/03, BTW, do you want some of these
when they sex out?) and will be checking for any spinal anomalies.

Always great to hear from you,

Bill
farang9

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## whuntley

> Wright,
> I would like to ask what has better insulation qualities from temperature
> fluctuations: breather bags of water, or little petri dishes of moist peat?
> 
> Not knowing for sure, I would vote for the breather bags of water. I've
> gotten eggs packed in 35mm film canisters with water that have yielded
> 100% hatch rate (Aplocheilus SRP/03, BTW, do you want some of these
> when they sex out?) and will be checking for any spinal anomalies.


Hi Bill,

It isn't insulation as much as it is thermal inertia due to mass. A bag of water always wins over a petrie dish of peat, in that situation, as it just takes more calories to change the temp of a lot of water, compared to damp peat. [Costs more to ship, tho.]

Don't need any Aplos, right now, but thanks.

Your question reminded me of my Scotch and Water diet theory.

A shot of Scotch whiskey has about 75 calories.

One colorie is the heat required to raise the temperature of one gram (1 cc) of water by one degree C.

Put the Scotch in a 200 cc glass of water with melting ice. That puts it at 0C.

When you get rid of that cold water, your body must have given up enough calories to heat it to about 37C. 200 X 37 is 7400 calories your body loses to heating the water. Subtract the original 75 calories, and the system means you drop 7325 calories for every time you drink a tall Scotch and Water!  :Very Happy:  *

Cheers,

Wright
_____________
* If you believe this, I can get you some great shares in the Brooklyn Bridge. :wink:

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## Ptarmigan



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## hobbit6003

Hi Wright,

Thanks for your input! :-)

Yeah, as I was discussing with some of the avid local killie breeders here, I've also questioned whether a diminished genetic pool would be applicable to the killies, since they've existed for generations in restricted locale. I guess you've just answered my query on this. And yes, it makes sense.

I'd do also agree with you that not all in-breeding is bad. THe problem is when one do not recognise that there's a problem and continue to breed a fish along that line, and got the genes 'fixed'.


Cheers,

Kenny

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## PohSan

An update of the my Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Bakebe' and Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae 'Tinto'. 

So far I have 8 'Tinto' fry and 4 'Bakebe' fry. And they are keep in those round takeaway container with a handful of java moss. 

Today, when I did a water change from the fry container. I took a close look at the fry and was quite shock to discover that 6 out of the 8 'Tinto' fry actually having different degree of bent / deformed spine problem. The condition is pretty much the same as Ronnie's ELB Nnen fry. One of the most serious case even has deformed spine / body shape when observed from the side view.  :Sad:  

Besides that, 2 out of 4 'Bekebe' fry is having the same problem as well.  :Sad:  

I took some pictures to show the deformed fry but I left the camera cable in my office. I will post up the photos on Monday. 

It is quite sad to see this kind of deformed fish, especially when numerous time and effort has been spent.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## whuntley

Looking back over this topic, there are just too many cases of bent spines in babies in too many species. 

That suggests to me an infectious agent, such as intestinal parasites.

When afflicted babies die, either freeze or preserve in alcohol or formaldehyde and get them to a local University biology dept. where you can try to get someone to do a necropsy and see if they have hexamita, columnaris, or some less common affliction that is interfering with nutrition. Exact diagnosis is vital, as treatments differ widely for flagellates or nematodes or ???

Our desert springs to the south of here have an invasion of a tapeworm that causes such problems in small fish. They probably spread from spring to spring via birds. Flubendazol works on them.

This parasite thing is just a wild guess, but too many babies have been hit, so a direct attack would seem to be worth the trouble. Find _exactly_ what is causing it. Recruit a smart young biology grad student, if you can. Otherwise find a veterinarian the local fish farmers trust.

Meanwhile, be sure you are feeding enough variety. Avoid any dry foods left open for long in your climate, as they can quickly lose, via humidity, all useful vitamins and even develop fungus aflatoxins that can poison the babies.

You can gut load bbs after they have molted a couple of times (become longer than they are wide) with various emulsified supplements. Baby vitamins can be soaked into Grindal feed. Microworm cultures can be spiked with liquid baby vitamins. Feed green water from time of hatching.

I'm even growing green water in my bbs hatch water! If the bbs don't get harvested for an extra day, they lose most of their yolk nutrition, but pick up some different nutrients from the green water organisms.

You guys cannot afford to keep losing species, so keep posting any kind of useful information or results.

Wright

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## stormhawk

Sad to say all my Simp. zonatus fry are pretty much gone.  :Crying:  I've lost all 17 of the remaining fry and all had the bent-spine problem before they died. The weirdest bit is that my Simp. flammeus fry are OK, and these have been housed in containers with water that is at least pH 7.4 which is very much the standard pH for most of my tanks with the exceptions of those with ADA Aquasoil in them. Those have hit pH levels of 6.0 and have somewhat stabilised. 

I'm really perplexed at what's causing this bent-spine effect on the fry. All of them were straight immediately after birth and did not show this problem until about a week later. They were fed a diet of microworm, BBS and sifted daphnia.

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## killiesmania

Hi guys,

New in this forum, just wondering how your fries are doing.... any updates... perhaps some pairs for sale?  :Laughing:   :Laughing:

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## RonWill

Hi "What's-your-name" killiesmania,

I've had some problems with water coming in from the mains that coincide with arrival of our 2nd Egg Order and don't know whether others had similar problems, but survival rate from the 2nd Egg Order was dismal. For reasons I don't understand, the incidence of spinal curvature was also quite high.

_Aphyosemion dargei_ 'Mbam' (DAR) - [*NONE*]
_Chromaphyosemion poliaki_ 'Ekona' CI-01 (PLK) [*1 MALE*]
_Chromaphyosemion splendopluere_ 'Bamukong Ombe' (SPP) [*NONE*]
_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nnen' (ELB) [*NONE*]
_Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Ndouzem' (ELB) [*NONE*]
_Paraphyosemion gardneri_ 'Lafia' [*1 MALE*] (_possibly_ 2 surviving females with Lily)

As for initiating another group egg order, I'm afraid someone else will have to step forward. Despite our best intentions, to perk up interest and also to share shipping costs for newcomers, response has been lack lustre.

In private capacity, I initiated more overseas orders within a core-group, brought in live-killies, more eggs and have new fry in grow-out tanks. Will soon have mates for the GAR 'Lafia' (plus a few other _splendopluere_, _Aphyosemion_, _Simpsonichthys_ and _Rivulus_ species). 

When I've sorted out compatible pairs from these extra fishes, members will see them in the 'Trading Post'.

Those wanting sub-adult (or adult) fishes that were raised from the egg order will be disappointed as these will likely be retained as breeding stock.

For those sitting on the fence, wanting only the 'exotic' and 'rare', *this thread* pretty much sums up how I feel.

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## killiesmania

Hi Ronnie,

Thank you for sharing, sad to hear that the survival rate of the eggs from overseas was dismal.... perhaps like you said, it was due to the water conditions and like some others mentioned, to the fluctuation in temperature (whether it was during the transportation or otherwise). 

Anyhow, I just placed an order for some pairs namely Aphyosemion Sjorstedti, Aphyosemion Splendopleure and Aphyoplatys Duboisi from a LFS, just that they have not gotten back to me on the availabiliy. Also, the owner mentioned that they would be getting some pairs from Malaysia and would be arriving on Sat. Come Sat, I will up date you guys on whether it was a show or no show...

I also bought a pair of Nothobranchius Korthausae from the shop. Though I dont know if I identified the species correctly...  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  It happened that they erased the name from their container after I bought the pair...

So how about the others? Anyone with greater success? Does anyone elso know of other places to get killie pairs? Locally or overseas? Perhaps plan a buying trip somewhere?

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## killiesmania

The name is David by the way....  :Opps:

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## zmzfam

David,

do note that most, if not all, killies brought in by lfs lacks collection code. If you see Ronnie's list, the collection code is after the species name.

The naming/writing convention is for the 1st letter of the genus to be capitalized while the species is in lower caps and all to be in italics e.g.

_Fundulopanchax sjoestedti_ (NOT _Aphyosemion sjorstedti_)
_Aphyosemion splendopleure
Aphyoplatys duboisi_

Not mean to be picky but it helps in getting certain things right.

Here's a good sight for the non-annuals : http://www.killifish.f9.co.uk/Killif...site/Index.htm

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## killiesmania

Zulkifli,

Thanks for the correction. Anyhow I new to this nomanclature of naming killie fish... was wondering what does the collection code actually mean? Thanks for the clarification.  :Laughing:

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## stormhawk

Okay here's an explanation of a "regular" killifish name.

For example:

_Micromoema xiphophora_ "Isla Raton" RDB 92/22

In this case, _Micromoema_ is the genus name, _xiphophora_ is the species name, "Isla Raton" is the location name, RDB 92/22 is the collection code.

RDB here stands for Roger D. Brousseau. 92/22 means collected in the year 1992, collection/location number 22. FYI, this scientific name + location + collection code is for the Swordtail Killie. A Google search will throw up several pictures.  :Very Happy: 

*Note:* Different collectors have different methods of appending location and codes to the fish they collect. It is absolutely necessary to maintain location codes to ensure that the population stays "pure". Species name will change, location and collection codes will not. :wink: 
_____________

I hope this helps in letting you understand "standard" killifish nomenclature for us killie folk. :wink:

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## stormhawk

David, we also have this shortform tag to identify killies easily. Examples below.

SJO - _Fundulopanchax sjoestedti_
RAC - _Nothobranchius rachovii_
FUM - _Simpsonichthys fulminantis_
XIP - _Rivulus xiphidius_

There are many more but too many to list. The 3 letter tag is taken from letters present in the species name - RAC from RAChovii. Get it? In some cases the tags would have been taken by a species described earlier so we make do by switching some of the letters.

As for _Aphyoplatys duboisi_, its seldom imported or offered for sale. Pretty uncommon to rare in the hobby. Good luck in sourcing for some. There are however, a tank full of _Epiplatys togolensis_ at Choong Sua Aquarium if you can't wait. These are quite big in size.

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## killiesmania

hmmm....

Saw the pic... doesnt look like what I have in mind....Thanks all the same...

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## RonWill

David, if you are like me, preferring 'WYSIWYG' (What You See Is What You Get), there will be no surprises with 'coded' fishes.

That's precisely why I can confidently order eggs and fishes of known populations/collection, from sellers living thousands of miles away without seeing the actual breeders, and STILL know that the fry will grow up to be like their parents.

Search for images on them online and more likely than not, it's the same fish, barring minor variability within populations.

That said, which image did you see that doesn't matches what you have in mind?

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## learner

> David,
> 
> do note that most, if not all, killies brought in by lfs lacks collection code. If you see Ronnie's list, the collection code is after the species name.
> 
> The naming/writing convention is for the 1st letter of the genus to be capitalized while the species is in lower caps and all to be in italics e.g.
> 
> _Fundulopanchax sjoestedti_ (NOT _Aphyosemion sjorstedti_)
> _Aphyosemion splendopleure
> Aphyoplatys duboisi_
> ...


Hi guys,

finally decide to stop lurking. I was just surfing Aquabid looking for some eggs and just happened to stumble on this. A newbie myself, but just wish to highlight that collection code could mean a world of difference. 

Taken from Aquabid (Pillet's the seller) :

N. eggersi « Rufiji TAN 95/7 »



N. eggersi « Bagamoyo »


*Mod's Note: Edited IMG tags. Refer to next post.*

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## stormhawk

Yi Hong,

Please refrain from directly linking pictures off auctions because the copyright belongs to the photographer or the owner of the fish. Pillet is a friend of mine and I would appreciate that you ask for his permission before uploading a picture in the future. :wink: 

Yes, collection codes can mean a world of difference, especially in terms of colouration but in some cases, the codes are duplicates of each other. Meaning, the fish are given different codes in different years but were all caught in the same pond in different years. However, if the fish comes with the code, please ensure that you do not lose it. :wink:

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## RonWill

hmm... kinda odd that the others didn't update yet but I can safely say that for Gan's (Turaco) _Paraphyosemion mirabile moense_ 'Nguti' HAH 98(MOE), it's doing reasonably well.

Gan reported a skewed sex ratio in his batch, predominantly male, at almost 80%. Of the survivors, 1F/5M now resides in my tank as part of the core-group's safety net.

I checked on their spawning mop and it was almost empty albeit for a few eggs, which I'll 'dry-mop-incubate'. [until the species is well established locally, every single egg is precious]

Jian Yang informed that the more accepted name for the species is _Fundulopanchax mirabilis moensis_ 'Nguti' HAH 98 and this is what the male looks like.



Gan, how are your MOE doing?

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## TyroneGenade

Actually, I don't think _Paraphyosemion_ has yet been put forward as a full Genus yet... but it will, so no harm in practicing early.:-)

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## turaco

Ron, the fish are fine. Nearly lost the female on one occasion. No egg on mop though  :Sad:  .

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## timebomb

Ronnie,

I have one young male _Aphyosemion elberti_ 'Nange Eboko' (ELB). He's the only survivor. I'll let you have him if you have the females.

Loh K L

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## killiesmania

Hi guys,

I was surfing the net and came across aquabid and there is this breeder who will post overseas... so... I am tempted to order from him. However I have doubts about transportation costs and whether the fishes will have trouble surviving the journey... anyone has any experiences? 

I was thinking of transporting by Fedex... something about three days to arrive.... anyone has experience ordering from overseas? Please share, thank you very much...

David

p.s. 
Ron, I meant that that the image you posted isn't a fish that I would like to have....  :Opps:

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## RonWill

> Ron, I meant that that the image you posted isn't a fish that I would like to have....


 David, I'm not sure which image you're referring to  :Question:   :Exclamation:  

*Your post* (Wed Oct 27, 2004 *1:58 pm*) stated, "Saw the pic... doesnt look like what I have in mind...."

Whereas *my image upload* of the _Paraphyosemion mirabile moense_ 'Nguti' HAH 98 was on Wed Oct 27, 2004 *3:53 pm*. I back-tracked to the beginning of this thread and the previous images were of fry with spinal curvature... something I'd rather avoid as well.

We're either in different time zones or one of us is confused; responding to another member or following the wrong thread perhaps?

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## RonWill

It's an ironic senario of 'too little, too late', Kwek Leong.

Your 'Nange Eboko' was part of the 2nd egg order, while mine was a won Aquabid auction, mentioned in *this post*. The sole survivor was a female, growing together with _Simp constanciae_ that were later infected badly with ich and secondary infection. I lost the whole lot, including the _elberti_.

Looks like you will have a bachelor boy for a while, at least until someone brings in an extra female (which is why I'm always mindful about species '*safety-net*').

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## killiesmania

[quote="RonWill"]


> We're either in different time zones or one of us is confused; responding to another member or following the wrong thread perhaps?


Ron,

Lets just say I was confused  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  

So if you had experience about the costs of ordering from overseas, please pm me... thanks..

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## RonWill

Some people won't appreciate or understand why killies don't come cheap but before reading further, David, secure your lower jaw to skull, lest it drops onto the floor.

Shipping cost via USPS Global Express Mail (EMS with shipment tracking) will set you back on average *[*US$28/3pairs, $45/12pairs & $97/28pairs*]**, arriving in about 4~5days. Fedex, DHL and other courier services will be faster (with even higher shipping costs).

'Stock' will do ok if seller is versed in shipping internationally and knows how to pack.

*** Excuse my brevity but if there's something I 'missed' out, it's probably intentional. Drop me an email instead.

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## killiesmania

Hi,

has anyone ordered with David Mikkelsen from aquabid?

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## RonWill

David, try letting your fingers do the walking. If not, hit the forum's 'Search' button... it really works albeit some time needed to sieve through the posts.

Perhaps this "*Egg availability list*" and *this thread (4th post from bottom of page)* will provide a clue to your question concerning Mr Mikkelsen, as well as your PM regarding SJO? [I did say _email_, didn't I  :Confused:  ]

There are little jewels of information in our archive or past posts/threads, and much to learn from there. Do take some effort going through them, it's a treasure trove of tips, how-to's, why's and more importantly, a cyberlog of our experience who have 'been there, done that'.

I can assure you, or anyone else for that matter, that it is worth your time.

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## killiesmania

After reading through all the posts, I figured that the hatch rate is rather low for most orders? Then, perhaps I should just order the fishes... then at least I can see the fishes...  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  

Timebomb,

How are the SJO that you ordered some time ago... care to share some pics of them? Quite smitten by SJO...  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  

David

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## stormhawk

David, the SJOs are available locally on occasions with stocks coming in from commercial breeders, possibly from our northern neighbour. Male SJOs do appear from time to time and females, as usual, are not easy to come by. Look out for some oddball killies in the shops every now and then.

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## killiesmania

Hi Jianyang,

Good to know that SJO are available locally. Do you have any idea specifically which LFS are known to carry them? The LFS that carry male killie that I know of is C328 (original) and spotted some females with males last year at Tropical (Pasir Ris farms)... Recently, only spotted C328 carrying males. Also, do you know of any members who have SJO stock?

Thanks

David

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## stormhawk

The SJOs are no longer kept among the members I know. They have either died of old age or disease. Fertility is not high with this species from my observations at a friend's place. I understand that there might be one or two members who are still maintaining them. Whether these are being spawned and raised, I do not know but I believe they are.

The shop that I heard recently with stocks of SJO is Eco-Culture down at Lavender Street (Eminent Plaza). Whether they still have them I'm not sure but you can go down and take a look. They also have young trios of Fp. gardneri "N'sukka" which you might want to try. 

Another shop which I saw selling killifish would be Ultimate Aquarium at Bukit Merah. Nearest MRT is Tiong Bahru. Walk towards Bukit Merah. Shop is situated at a hilltop market/shopping area along a winding road.

Other shops, apart from C328 (males only), are Choong Sua Aquarium (occasionally pairs) and some farms which I'm not too sure of. The farms will bring in killies in large consignments but whether you get the RIGHT female for the RIGHT male is another issue. Many importers frequently mix in the females since they look all the same. This is the case with Nothobranchius species being brought in. Also applies to other species like Aphyosemions. 

On a sidenote, I have seen beautiful species like Simp. magnificus, fulminantis and Aphanius mento but nobody bought them. Sad indeed. If you're really into killies, give those Ep. togolensis at CS a home to live in. I kept 4 of these myself not too long ago before the last male decided to "konk" out. They may look boring to some people but are just as decent as any killifish are and that includes Simp. constanciae. An under-rated species that people tend to overlook because of their drab stress colouration. A full-grown Simp. constanciae male is a stunning fish with blue highlights in the dorsal and anal fins. This species was also offered for sale quite some time ago and nobody bought them.  :Confused:

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## killiesmania

Hi Jianyang,

Thanks for the info, will be visiting the two shops you mentioned as well as Au's place in the afternoon to get some pairs... Also, do you have the road name for Ultimate Aquarium? Dont remember a hill near Tiong Bahru... Do you know the market's name? Thanks

David

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## killiesmania

Got the address for Ultimate, its at Blk 116, Bukit merah View. Thanks.

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## PohSan

Hi all,
This is update of the egg ordered:

1) Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Bakebe' (MOE) [in peat] 
4 dead - Zero left 


2) Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae 'Tinto' [in breather bag] 

6 left - encountered deformed spline and shunt growth.

 :Crying:  

Regards, 
Ong Poh San

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