# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk > Aquatic Moss Club >  Christmas Moss

## virce

Dear all,
Mr. Loh was very kind to send me some Christmas Moss and it arrived last Monday (thanks again Mr. Loh!). On his suggestion, I decided to post a problem I'm experiencing here. Tied to a couple of my 50 gallon tank's driftwoods with regular sewing black thread, they were separated and not tied on top of each other. Lighting is OK, I have two 20 watt Sunglo fluorescents that the rest of the tank seems to be receiving the most, plus a couple of regular shoplights (36W each) at the back of the tank. I've also hooked up a video cooling fan at the back running on the same schedule as the lights (12 hours). The temperature fluctuates, I admit, but that's only because it's indoors and I turn on the air-con every night. Out of this habit, the temperature always registers between 24 degrees centigrade (the lowest) and 28 degrees centigrade (highest but rare). 

I also have DIY CO2 injection and I add Sera Florena liquid fertilizer 40ml every week with water change. 

Now, the problem: some of the fronds seem to be turning light brown on one end. I don't know what's wrong. pH is 7.5 and I don't know about other parameters as I have no test kits for them. 

Perhaps someone can provide some insight? Thanks a lot!

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## A.Rashid

welcome Virce,

I also have faced this kinda problem b4 but I dunno to me it's natural as moss need time to adapt to the new environment. Mine turn brown initially but it turns green and new green one grow.
How long has the moss been in your tank.

to me yr pH is a bit to high... try to bring it down to 6.5-6.7 range...

I guess you are using canister filter? what filter medium are u using? 

my 2cents worths..

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## virce

Thanks Rashid, for the reply. No, I'm not using canister filter right now but I'm bidding on one and it's going to come soon. I believe the filter media that comes with it are foam, bio-max and carbon. 

The moss is only in my tank for a week, but now that I know there's someone who also has the same problem then I'll wait it out. Perhaps then it'll recover.

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## FC

I am not into moss but your PH seems too high that indicate insufficient CO2, unless your KH is 15. First check your water KH. If your KH is 3, then lower the PH with CO2 until you get 6.6.



Regards,

Freddy Chng

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## zmzfam

> I believe the filter media that comes with it are foam, bio-max and carbon.


Forget about the carbon in the canister. It will only absorb whatever nutrients you put inside the water. I'm not sure what's a bio-max, but if it is the same as sintered glass kind of filter media or bio-rings, it should be ok. Get some wool also as one of the filter media.

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## virce

:Sad:  LFSs don't sell kH test kits. What makes water more alkaline? My tap water is 7.

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## FC

If you do not mind taking a small risk... Forget about the Kh, just increase the CO2 injection rate to lower the Ph till you get 6.6, gradually over a few days. You should see more bubbles on your stem plants as you increase the CO2.



Regards,

Freddy Chng

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## virce

I finally found a kH test kit at a local LFS! Tucked away in a corner. 

It's shocking. My kH is extremely low. In the 50 gallon tank the kH is about 3dkh and another 20 gallon of mine is 1dkh. I've just bought kH-plus to increase it. 

I've just done a 20% water change and I've seen the pH dropped to 7.5. So now I'm going to add pH-minus. Looking at this all, fish-keeping should not be so complicated!  :Confused:

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## timebomb

> Looking at this all, fish-keeping should not be so complicated!


Hmm, but think how happy you will be when the moss starts to take off  :Laughing:  

Annette, I don't know if it's a good idea to mess with your Kh and Ph too much. I think you may have forgotten that Freddy said these parameters should be changed *gradually*. Neither fish nor plants take well to sudden changes in water parameters. I hope, in your haste to grow the moss, you don't end up killing all the fish in your tank instead.

Loh K L

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## virce

You're right, Mr. Loh. I know I shouldn't play around with these things as they cause osmotic stress to the fishes. 

I know I made a huge mistake. Last night I added twice the normal dosage for tablet plant fertilizers as I did not see the labelling at the side of the box. Today I found the surface full of bubbles. When pH is checked, it's 8.0 (yeah it increased). I did a 20% change and it dropped to 7.5 but went back up to 8.0 in a matter of hours.

I feel so miserable... the tablets cannot be retrieved because when I did, I found them turning mushy. 

I guess the problem now isn't the browning christmas moss, it's the extreme pH reading in my tank! 

Plan is I'm going to change 20% water of water every day. At least it'll keep things under control until the excess tablets are removed.

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## zmzfam

> It's shocking. My kH is extremely low. In the 50 gallon tank the kH is about 3dkh and another 20 gallon of mine is 1dkh. I've just bought kH-plus to increase it.


kH of 3 should be ok. What is the kH-plus that you bought? To increase kH you can also use sodium bicarbonate or baking soda. 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda to 50 litres of water raises the kH by 1 dKH.




> I've just done a 20% water change and I've seen the pH dropped to 7.5. So now I'm going to add pH-minus.


Don't use any chemicals to reduce the pH. As what Freddy has said, you should only use CO2 to bring down the pH. I think the problem could lie with your DIY CO2. Is it working properly?




> Last night I added twice the normal dosage for tablet plant fertilizers


What is the tablet plant fertilizers that you bought? Is it something you put inside the water or to be buried inside the gravel?

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## FC

Annette,

You need not bother on the KH as long it is not zero. KH of between 1 & 3 is good. Try not to use chemical if possible.

If you have KH of 1, inject the CO2 till you get PH of 6.0, measure just before light on (the lowest PH you will get at this point of time) if you inject CO2 24 hrs a day. The PH will slowly increase when Light on as the plants take up the CO2 during light on.
If you have KH of 3, inject the CO2 till you get PH of 6.4, measure just before light on (the lowest PH you will get at this point of time) if you inject CO2 24 hrs a day. The PH will slowly increase when Light on as the plants take up the CO2 during light on.

However, lower the PH slowly (increase the CO2 injection slowly) over a few days so that the fishes and plants could adjust to it and more importantly (if you inject 24 a day), to avoid over injection that lead to toxification.

If you have solenoid control for CO2 in future, let me know, I will provide another set of check/control procedure.



Regards,
Freddy Chng.

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## virce

> What is the kH-plus that you bought?


It's a Sera product, and I shouldn't have bought it because baking soda is a great alternative.  :Smile:  Will buy that in the future.




> I think the problem could lie with your DIY CO2. Is it working properly?


It couldn't be more frisky. However, there's only a 1.5 litre bottle for a 50 gallon tank, it may not be enough though. I can't add another reactor because Mr. Loh was the one kind enough to send me it because no LFS sells them.




> What is the tablet plant fertilizers that you bought? Is it something you put inside the water or to be buried inside the gravel?


Something I put inside the gravel. That's why I mentioned that it'd turned into mush when I tried to retrieve them.




> KH of between 1 & 3 is good


For community tanks I thought the recommended level of kH should be 5dkh to 10dkh?




> If you have KH of 3, inject the CO2 till you get PH of 6.4


How do I do that? I'm using DIY CO2 with only one bottle. Should I add another bottle?

Thanks!

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## zmzfam

For your fertilizers, you should not have retrieved them as when they turned mushy, they are leaching a lot of nutrients into the water column. I suggest that you do more regular water changes to prevent the explosion of algae.

For DIY CO2, Here's a thread with pictures showing how you can hook up a few bottles together if one bottle is not enough. The output from the bottle is joined together using a Y or T connector and connected to a bubble counter before going to the reactor.

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## virce

I only pulled one out, as soon as I discovered it became mushy, I stopped digging. 

Thanks for the link.  :Smile:  I'm going to keep up with the water changes to clear this thing up.

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## FC

Dear Annette,

"For community tanks I thought the recommended level of kH should be 5dkh to 10dkh?"
All living things (fishes and plants) are very adaptable to surrounding changes as long as you give enough them time. Throughout the years, I have various fishes and plants living together with water ranges from KH of 1 to 6, PH 6 to 7. Gradual change is the key.
For planted tank, PH of 6.4 seems to be idea, I therefore, keep the KH at about 2.

"I'm using DIY CO2 with only one bottle. Should I add another bottle?"
You can and should do that. In the beginning, add a valve to control. It is always good to have at least 2 bottles and start the brew with about 5 days gap between the 2 bottles, so that, the CO2 supply is more consistance.
If you are using the spiral diffuser, place it as deep in the water as possible to allow water pressure and CO2 travel distant to help dissolve the gas. You may use reactor for better efficiency.



Regards,

Freddy Chng

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## virce

Thanks Freddy, another CO2 bottle has been added. For a female, using the drill myself is really satisfying!  :Very Happy:  

Well I've done 50% water change, nothing else added (not even kH up and pH down) and I'll continue to monitor the pH level. 

Also, have I also mentioned that in conjuction with the extreme pH crisis, there are LOTS of bubbles at the surface? Check this picture out:




Regards,
Annette

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## timebomb

That's strange. Where are the bubbles coming from? I can think of several possiblities but they all seem unlikely.

1. There's an air pocket in your powerhead filter.
2. There's a brand new piece of driftwood or rock in the tank. 
3. It's pearling from the plants. 

But you should know where the bubbles are coming from, Annette. Let me know. 

Loh K L

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## virce

Mr. Loh,
That's the strangest thing. My water seem to be able to "bond" the bubbles to the extend they can't "pop" for a long time. My powerhead filter is not blowing bubbles (I disconnected the tubing that enables air to be blown into the water - sorry I forgot what it's called  :Smile:  ) It's only blowing at bubbles bubbling from a bubble wand below. Even so, I don't see why the bubbles should not pop for a long time. Before the pH increase, there's no such problem, in fact I got the normal "cola effect". 

Same thing with CO2. As you know, Mr. Loh the spiral tube ends with bubbles finally released into the water and floating to the top. Now, it doesn't pop, just like the rest!

As for driftwood or rock... nope. The things I have in my tank has been there since the beginning. I doubt it's from the plants either as I don't see any bubbles on the plants themselves.

Can it be related to the increase in pH?

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## virce

Well I know the description sounds strange, so you have to see it yourself. There's a link below for you to download a video I took of the bubbles. It's only about 2.2MB. 

Sorry it's small and when enlarged it's hazy but that's the best I can do with my digital camera. 

http://www.type-v.net/AquariumBubbles.zip

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## FC

Annette,

Your water seems to lather. It is probably your PH up which increased the alkality.

Was your gravel new? I remember washing ?? brand lonestar, they contain lots of soapy staff.

As for your DIY CO2, check the tube that was inserted into the bottle cap, it should be well cleared above the solution.

Change the water 35% every 2~3 days till you dilute enough of the chemical.

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## A.Rashid

Annete from the video I see that your powerhead is the one that blew the bubbles.. why not juz utilize thepowerhead to inject your CO². I use this kinda injection with my 2 feet tank. But my powerhead is not a powerfull one tho... what the flowrate of the powerhead... 
here's how u should do. you should just connect the tube that suppose to create bubbles from the powerhead to your CO² cannister and that should elliminate too much air bubbles in your tank. too much air(O²) disrupt/disperse the CO² content in your water... 

powerhead flowrate should not be a strong one... if you can control the flowrate by all mean turn it to the lowest or to a rate that does not create turbulance or strong current... jus enuf to circulate the water in it will do...

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## timebomb

Annette,

I think Rashid gave you good advice. Besides the CO2 reactor I sent you, you can also use your powerhead as a reactor. It's quite obvious from your video that the bubbles are coming from your powerhead filter. It's is also obvious that your water is very turbulent as the fish seems to be struggling in the currrent. 

Life for the fish in your tank must be pretty stressful  :Laughing: 

As for why the bubbles seem to bond and not pop, I don't know the answer to that but I think maybe you have soap in your tank  :Laughing:  

Loh K L

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## virce

*LOL* I was afraid you all are going to say that. Which is why my reply is as follow:

With all due respect, I don't mean to contradict you (you are in the fish keeping arena for a long time now) but the powerhead really isn't blowing out bubbles, because I didn't connect the hose that sucks in air in the first place! What it does is actually dispersing the bubbles rising from a bubble wand below. I added the bubble wand because aeration was a problem with the previous powerhead filter (it died). 

With this new filter, I've tuned the flow to the lowest possible and I cannot possibly aim it anywhere else other than the wall because it'll make my plants uproot.  :Very Happy:  

Mr. Loh, soap seems like a viable reason. I did, if I remember correctly, washed my arm with soap and rinsed it off quickly before dipping in (again) into the aquarium because I found another plant floating up! 

In any case, no wonder the water was extremely alkaline. Oh dear God I've added *SOAP* into my tank????? Luckily I've changed 50% of water already this afternoon, pH lowered to 7.0, kH now 4dkh, but bubbles are still there!

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## virce

Oh and I forgot to update you guys on how the pH and kH is doing. After the 50% water change this afternoon, I watched the pH dropped to 7.5, then just now when I checked (it's night now) it's 7.0 with kH 4dkh. 

The reading sounds good. I just hope it'll remain this way.

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## virce

Ugh, I seem to be so absent minded tonight. I forgot to mention one more thing, and it won't be that important. The reason why I didn't use the powerhead filter to disperse CO2 is because it's very new.  :Smile:  As you know, my old one died on me so I bought a new one. At that time, CO2 bottles were already rigged up to Mr. Loh's CO2 reactor and by the time you guys responded with all the suggestions, I'd already hooked up the second bother with a Y connector to the reactor!

Ah well... something to keep in mind next time. The airline tubing wasn't long enough anyway.  :Very Happy:

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## A.Rashid

oh well ok.... that's sound pleasing...anyway we are all here to learn from each other. but like I said earlier Annete, you cut shut the bubble wand, as I think by doing it will reduce the pH level and also less CO² loss.
wats the flowrate of your powerhead again? you didn't mentioned it...

and one more thing... which part of Malaysia r u from? may be can exchange plant or sumthin.... whenever I'm in Malaysia I'm alway in a lookout for LFS but to no avail. except in JB but alll Luohan crazz shop...

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## FC

To remove the bubble, change the water to dilute and then, place newspaper over the water surface to remove the water surface bubble.

Do not bubble the water with air pump, never for planted tank. If you turn on the light for 7~9 hrs, the plant would be able to saturate the water with oxyegen.

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## virce

> you cut shut the bubble wand, as I think by doing it will reduce the pH level and also less CO² loss


I don't know why, but my fish will gasp at night at the surface! So I guess the bubble wand's only for night huh?




> wats the flowrate of your powerhead again? you didn't mentioned it...


I have no idea. It's an Aquanic Power Liquid Filter 1500. There's nothing on it that states the flowrate, not even the booklet.




> and one more thing... which part of Malaysia r u from?


Kuching.  :Smile:  As for plants, they (LFS) are really sad. They have no easy plants and whatever they bring in I cannot identify. Mr. Loh is the nice one who helped me out with that problem!




> alll Luohan crazz shop...


I agree!! Kuching LFS are Luohan crazy too! I can't stand them. 




> To remove the bubble, change the water to dilute and then, place newspaper over the water surface to remove the water surface bubble.


Been there done that. The bubbles just start forming again.  :Sad:  

*sigh* I guess I'll keep changing water every day till the problem disappears on its own. Sometimes we just need to have one of those mind-boggling moments.

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## virce

Oh sorry, I do know why fish gasp at the surface at night. Typo. I'll just turn on the bubble wand at night then.

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## zmzfam

> Oh sorry, I do know why fish gasp at the surface at night. Typo. I'll just turn on the bubble wand at night then.


There is too much CO2 in the water at night (I take it that it is after lights off?).

Reasons are :
1) your DIY CO2 is on 24hrs.
2) there is not enough plants to saturate the water with O2 during photosynthesis period.

You are correct to say that to turn on your wand at night only. This will drive excess CO2 from the water.

Alternatively, plant densely your tank.

To know whether you have excess CO2 at night, measure the kH and the pH and use this CO2 calculator to check your CO2 level.
More than 30ppm can be hazardous to your fish.

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## virce

Thanks zmzfam, I already found the website before, will try that tonight. I'll keep you posted.

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## virce

OK, here's the reading right before the lights come on:

pH: 7.2 (could be 7.0... colours look like both 7.0 and 7.5 on chart)
kH: 5

During lights on:
pH: 7.0
kH: 4

I find the parameters weird too...

Regards,

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## FC

Annette,

To get PH 6.4, the colour should be light green and close to yellow. You should read it under a good quality light source (either under the sun or good daylight flourescence lamp with Ra of more than 85) in order to read it well.

Increase the CO2 gradually and you need only to measure just before light on.

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## virce

Dear all,
Just a little update. As Rashid had said, his Christmas Moss took sometime to acclimate and started to grow later. I'm happy to say that mine is starting to grow as well. I'm seeing light green leaves appearing all over the driftwood lying horizontally down. The vertical driftwood's mosses aren't doing anything though.

Regards,

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## timebomb

> I'm happy to say that mine is starting to grow as well.


That's great news, Annette. Congratulations!!

Maybe one day we will get to see your own Christmas Moss Wall. They are your plants now, by the way, so you should really stop referring to them as "Mr Loh's plants" :wink: 

Loh K L

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## A.Rashid

that's good new Annette. Moss in the begining starts slow but when they already feel like home ... they grow like no body's business...but I always like the wild look. here's pic of my 3 feet tank. just rescape abt 3 weeks ago...



feel free to comment...

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## virce

> That's great news, Annette. Congratulations!!


Thanks, Mr. Loh! *LOL* I was so happy when I looked at it, it just appeared one morning! My guppies seem to be the "clean-up" crew, picking algae off the driftwood.  :Laughing:  The java moss is sending out new leaves too! 




> They are your plants now, by the way, so you should really stop referring to them as "Mr Loh's plants"


OK, I will.  :Very Happy:  

***

Rashid, that's a lovely tank! Planted tanks have a way of making me go sighing up and down. :wink: The yellow background is unique, it gives off a kind of "sunset" look. The plants contrast really well with it too.

Regards,

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## A.Rashid

hehehe... i guess as much ppl alway said that my background is unique.. hmmm unique indeed it is but let me tell you that it's not a bcakground but my wall instead. all my tanks dun have any background. Still looking for one but not black. actaully I meant to put a moss wall but till now it never happen.... still havent got the patience to sit down and start weaving the moss to the netting/ grill or whatever name it's called...

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