# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Cichlids >  Altum Angels/Alenquer Cuipea Discus - where can we buy good batches of these beauty?

## evilfry

Hi everyone,

would like to know where can i buy these beauties in Singapore, or do we have to order them from overseas? 

Also, is it a good idea to mix them?

Thanks in advance!

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## EvolutionZ

Altum angel's season will come soon in july/august.. im waiting for them also.  :Very Happy:

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## evilfry

thanks for info Evo bro - where is best to purchase them or make bookings? =D

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## bossteck

You can try Fish Haven at Telok Blangah.

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## evilfry

Thanks Eric!

I will visit Fish Haven soon, fingers crossed

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## David Moses Heng

I believe there are multiple writeup in the forum on mixing altum with discus. But in a nit shell, it is not advisable to mix as there are parasites which are harmless to altums but deadly to discus.

Hope I got it right...

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## evilfry

Hey  :Smile:  let me do some search. thanks for the heads up!

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## illumnae

Just a few points:

1. Fish Haven no longer deals in wild fish. For the past 2 years he's been dealing in Luohan. I dropped by last month and chatted with the owner. Very unfortunate that we lost a good source of wild fish  :Sad: 

2. The "parasites which are harmless to altums but deadly to discus" is a morphed urban legend. I first read about it > 10 years ago as a kid, where the urban legend related to any angelfish and not just altums. You just have to ask around online to debunk this urban legend. Plenty of people have kept angelfish with discus with no ill effect. I myself have kept wildcaught altums with wildcaught heckel discus as well as wildcaught green discus (2 separate tanks) with no issues. I've since sold the green discus, but the altums and heckels are both still alive today, 3 years down the road (though I've separated them already). I emphasize wildcaught because the urban legend allegedly refers to the parasite being naturally occurring in the wild. This in itself is ridiculous, as discus and angelfish co-exist perfectly fine in the wild (though admittedly no discus live where altums are found - is this why the urban legend morphed to specify altums as the only parasite carrier now?). In a nutshell, don't worry about the "parasite" - it doesn't exist.

3. What you do need to take note of is feeding. Angelfish (including altums) tend to be more aggressive feeders that like to feed from the surface and water column while the food is dropping. Discus, on the other hand, are more passive in nature and they also naturally tend to sift the substrate for food. As you can imagine, bullying during feeding and not having enough food left for the discus may pose a problem for you if you were to keep discus and altums together. This was something I observed when I kept my discus and altums together. One way to get around this is to feed the altums first at one corner of the tank to get them focussed on that corner, then go feed the discus in the other corner. After awhile, my discus got more proactive at recognizing (a) the food; (b) feeding time; and (c) the feeder (me) approaching the tank and started giving the altums a run for their money on the food. Within a few months, I had no more problems with feeding and just fed them all at once and let them sort themselves out. However, do note that your mileage may vary as being cichlids, each individual altum and discus may have different behavorial characteristics within the confined of commonly observed species characteristics. Some may be more timid while others may be more bold.

My first post after a long hiatus from this forum. Hope it helps  :Smile:

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## David Moses Heng

Yi Xiang, thanks for clearing the air. 

Actually what you say is quite true...

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## evilfry

Thanks Yi Xiang bro, very good points and i will certainly bear in mind!

Yes, Fish Haven no longer deals with wild discus - called them up last week and was told the same.
Now still searching for sources, even emailed some overseas (brazil) contacts to see if they ship to Singapore.
Let me know if you have a source ok? Thanks!!

James

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## David Moses Heng

Actually, you may want to contact Thio of BIOTOPE SERVICES and ask him to help source.

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## RonWill

Biotope? Friend, perhaps you didn't read this?

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## David Moses Heng

I think i need to help set the record right.  :Smile: 

The one that close is the retail arm of BIOTOPE SERVICES aka BIOTOPE Aquarium. The parent company, BIOTOPE SERVICES PTE LTD is still going STRONG.

Thank you.

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## RonWill

Ah... so sorry... my bad. I think Biotope's management need to clarify it as well. So Biotope Services Pte Ltd will be catering to online orders for wild-caughts??

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## David Moses Heng

if there is a demeand, I believe that we will still cater for it.

Regards.  :Smile:

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## RonWill

AltumLover, something struck my mind while reading your reply (with "*we* will still cater for it") but are you part of Biotope's team or a loyal customer? No ulterior motives but curiosity is a bug that I've yet to work out.

Sorry I couldn't be more diplomatic but I'm just too blunt and uninformed (out of the circle for too long).

BTW, how do I address you? I'm Ron... if it wasn't obvious enough!!  :Grin:

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## David Moses Heng

I am part of the team. David here. :Smile:

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## illumnae

James, just some comments from someone who's been very much into wild discus for the past 3 years. 

If you're specifically looking for Alenquer/Cuipea discus, then there's no other source to get it from than Hudson of H&K discus (Brazil). He's the only one I can say is trustworthy of his actual sources of discus. Many exporters in Brazil and importers worldwide have no qualms about slapping an "Alenquer" tag on a brown/blue discus that shows some reddish colour just to add a premium to the price of the fish. Hence, your "Alequer" could easily have come from Nhamunda or even Xingu for all you know. These exporters get wild discus from all sources of collectors and then sort the fish according to size, grade (pattern) and colour. After the mix and match sorting, the exporters/importers will then slap on nametags to the batches of discus based on the sorted characteristics. This is where we get totally coined up names like "Lago Solomon" wild discus, where no such lake with discus actually exist - this tag is slapped on especially large discus (>6" diameter). Likewise, "Xingu" wilds are typically yellow-based brown discus, and then you have "Nhamunda" blues that are really just reddish royals and "Alenquer" or "Cuipea" or "Curipera" (no such lake exists, but the discus are marked as being from this mythical locality) are the more red-based discus. As you can tell by now, each of these tags only refers to a characteristic, NOT a locality.

The problem with getting fish from Hudson are: 1. Price - his fish come at a premium (US$300-500 a piece shipped) but the quality is world class 2. Availability - Hudson doesn't do "mass market". He sends fishermen out to specific rivers on specific trips to ensure his collection locality remains accurate. What this means is that at any one point in time, you cannot be 100% sure that he has the exact locality that you want. For example, this month he may have available blues and Heckels from the Rio Nhamunda...fish which were not available 2 months back. 2 months back instead he had Coari green discus. Hence, if you've already "missed the boat" on this year's Alenquer/Cuipea catch from him, you may have to wait till next year. My personal example was when I was actively sourcing for Nhamunda "Blue Moon" heckels last year...I couldn't get any for a few months until I finally gave up and saved some money by acquiring wild discus locally instead. My humble opinion is really that if you can't manage to get fish from H&K, you may as well just go with my suggested option below and get the fish locally. The extra cost of shipping in fish specially doesn't justify not being 100% certain of the source. At the time I was sourcing, I had exporters from Taiwan, Hong Kong and Malaysia offer "Blue Moon Heckels" to me, but when I obtained pictures of the actual fish, they were all just normal heckels or, at best, "Blue-face" ones. These are easily available locally every year during wild discus season at a fraction of the price.

If you're not specifically looking for Alenquer/Cuipea discus, and just want beautiful red based discus, just look around locally. There are plenty. Over the past 3 months, I have acquired almost 20 pieces of very good quality red based blue discus. Locality is unknown, and all are from C328, but they're definitely all red based, and though not royal blues, they all have blue striations on their bodies in varying degrees. I have to repeat, all are red based like Alenquer/Cuipea discus, some more so than others. Just have some patience and look around. There are currently still 3-4 pieces of very good quality red based ones available at C328 as I type this. C328 also has a batch of very nice greens with a full body sheen (not the type with just brown body and striations/dots...this one has the green sheen all-body) - and some even show promise to have nice body spots (though not full body) when groomed well. All this is obtained locally at a fraction of the price. You just don't pay for the "brand" of the locality name, while obtaining a similar quality. Aside from C328, other LFS that bring in wild discus during the season include NKS and JZX Pet Boutique.

Just my humble opinion from the last couple years of research and experience in sourcing for wild discus personally. Hope this helps  :Smile:

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## illumnae

Here are some lousy shots of some of the blue discus I have in my tank which were taken a month or so back (so missing some of the latest additions). You can't really see the extent of red due to the bad lighting and murky water, but you definitely can see traces of it in all of them. they all cost less than 1/4 of the shipped price from Hudson. When I first got them, comparing the fish to pictures from Heiko Bleher's discus book, they look like they're either from the Alenquer or Nhamunda - both regions with reportedly red discus.

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## ZackZhou

hi, just trying to help, does chai discus worth a look if you are getting some?
Mr chai if not wrong is quite good with discus.
sorry as i do not know much about them.
cheers  :Smile:

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## bossteck

Didn't know Fish Haven no longer deals with wilds. 

I remember getting mine from them couple of years ago... what struck me was that unlike some other LFS which would be eager to dump their wilds to customers, FH actually refused to sell me one batch because they felt they were not stable yet, instead, i was directed to another batch which were already acclimatized and feeding on frozen daphnias. 

Incidentally, I got 10 juvenile altums that time, 8 survived, 2 got 'eaten' by my overflow, quite sure they would have survived as well if not for that mishap. 

Cheers

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## chilla18

Hi Ronnie just side track a bit are you ronnie from the old plantnux forum and working in a lab dealing with dental stuff?

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## illumnae

Hi bossteck, yep back in the day FH was one of the good places to get altums, as they had good experience in quarantining them to be ready for sale. I was shocked to learn they were no longer dealing in wilds too. Seems like after I got my green discus from him 2 years ago, he decided to switch to focusing on Luohans instead. Real pity. Heckels that I got from him 3 years ago are still swimming in my tanks today! I got them from him 1 day after they landed after assuring him i knew how to do my own QT procedure hehe...like with you, he initially wanted to complete his own QT on them before selling them to me

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## RonWill

> I am part of the team. David here.


Apologies to the original poster for further side-tracking but...

Hi David, thanks for setting the records straight. Nothing worse than propagating incorrect misinformation but do update us when details are ironed out and Biotope will once again play an active role in the hobby.

illumnae, I can't help but wonder what is causing the murkiness in your discus tank. Are you feeding live foods, pellets or a custom blend of beef heart? Bacterial bloom or ...??? [I had to ask!!  :Grin: ]

Chilla, wow... Plantnux is a name I've not heard in a long long time. Still maintain sporadic contact with some of the mailing list's ex-members. Yep, we're both the same Ronnie in the flesh and you are ...?

...and we return to our regularly scheduled program...  :Opps:

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## chilla18

I am Victor and I beleive you still remember me right spoke to Kenny about you the last time i visited his office.

Ok will not side track maybe we can arrange for a meet up around Choa Chu Kang area and sorry TS for side tracking.

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## evilfry

Yi Xiang, a million thanks for sharing all these with me and even calling me to share more. Will try to drop by C328 occasionally and have a look! Let you know if i am getting any, cheers!

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## illumnae

> ...
> 
> illumnae, I can't help but wonder what is causing the murkiness in your discus tank. Are you feeding live foods, pellets or a custom blend of beef heart? Bacterial bloom or ...??? [I had to ask!! ]


Nah, it's the dust from unwashed SUDO bottom sand not being properly filtered out yet  :Smile:  Couldn't be bothered to wash 10 bags worth of it so just dumped it in and slowly let the floss do the clearing




> Yi Xiang, a million thanks for sharing all these with me and even calling me to share more. Will try to drop by C328 occasionally and have a look! Let you know if i am getting any, cheers!


No problem at all. It's great to see more dedicated wild discus keepers here. I hope that in time, importers will see the interest and start putting more effort into bringing better and better ones in!

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## illumnae

Just a brief update James, Heiko Bleher has identified my discus as originating from the Alenquer....so you know that we can get beauties from this region locally and affordably  :Smile:

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## lucasrock

> Chilla, wow... Plantnux is a name I've not heard in a long long time. Still maintain sporadic contact with some of the mailing list's ex-members. Yep, we're both the same Ronnie in the flesh and you are ...?
> 
> ...and we return to our regularly scheduled program...


RonWill. Are you the Ronnie Killie that I know? Wet Finger too? hahah...Remember me? I was also in Plantnutx with Kenny the tooth slayer....
performing dental jobs on customer's Luo Hans.....

BTW, I am also waiting for the wild caught altum season to start...hahah. cheers.

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## illumnae

Starting tomorrow  :Smile:

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## lucasrock

> Starting tomorrow


Thanks....bought already.  :Grin:

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## RonWill

> RonWill. Are you the Ronnie Killie that I know? Wet Finger too?


 That's "WetFingers"... and both are yours truly!  :Grin: 

I've always admired the gracefulness of a school of altums from afar. Do post pics after yours are settled down. Did you scaped an amazonian biotope for them?

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## lucasrock

> That's "WetFingers"... and both are yours truly! 
> 
> I've always admired the gracefulness of a school of altums from afar. Do post pics after yours are settled down. Did you scaped an amazonian biotope for them?


Haha....so far, I have only 11 altums that are about 50ct size (body).......mixed of wild caught and tank bred. I am currently looking to acquire a 5 1/2 ft tank to house them. But i bet they will be totally lost...

What does an amazonian biotope looks like for the altums? just a mess of branchy driftwoods with some echinodorus?? hahaha  :Laughing: 

BTW....no field reports from HCM city trip?? Did Edwin pass you the Gel ??  :Grin:

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## bubbly1

For bros that are interested in Altums, just saw them at C328 yesterday. Also I think NKS is selling them too. Usually packed in 4 to 5 pcs. it is quite small. I just bgt a bag of 5 pcs and now in the quarantine tank. fingers crossed.....

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## icefire

> Here are some lousy shots of some of the blue discus I have in my tank which were taken a month or so back (so missing some of the latest additions). You can't really see the extent of red due to the bad lighting and murky water, but you definitely can see traces of it in all of them. they all cost less than 1/4 of the shipped price from Hudson. When I first got them, comparing the fish to pictures from Heiko Bleher's discus book, they look like they're either from the Alenquer or Nhamunda - both regions with reportedly red discus.


OMG! love the setup especially the wood~ can PM me where you bought those from? thanks!!  :Very Happy:

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## illumnae

Dredging up an old thread, but for interested parties, I've heard that premium Alenquer discus from Hudson should be hitting our shores soon  :Smile:  The fish should include some from the very desired Cuipeua as well as the Lago Grande do Curai - both lakes in the Alenquer region in Brazil. Keep your eyes peeled  :Smile:

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## bernie

> Dredging up an old thread, but for interested parties, I've heard that premium Alenquer discus from Hudson should be hitting our shores soon  The fish should include some from the very desired Cuipeua as well as the Lago Grande do Curai - both lakes in the Alenquer region in Brazil. Keep your eyes peeled


Which are the LFS that will be bringing them in? In other words, where can we possibly see and buy them locally?

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## illumnae

Keep your eyes peeled in the commercial section. Best for the lfs to announce themselves

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## bernie

JZX announced their partnership with Hudson of H&k Ornamental fish(Brazil). 

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...714#post636714

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## PatrickChan

nice combination of the discus and the child

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## illumnae

These are not Lago Cuipeua discus, but are also from the Alenquer region and from the neighbouring Lago Grande do Curuai. These are fish that I will be hopefully receiving soon:

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