# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Cyprinids >  Dying Kuhli loach

## diki

Anyone who is keeping these fellas can advice how u are keeping them? Have bought 5 of them and now left 3 in more than 1 week. :Crying:  They seems to be unwilling to compete for food with my other fishes (cherry barb, cardinal, rummy nose, drawf molly). Sometimes I throw in sinking food but they don't seem to eat them (at least when I'm watching). They are cute fellas and it is sad to see them go. Please advise. Thanks.

Something that I have noticed before they die. They would turn pale in colour and that is when they would die in a few days later. Anyone experience this before?

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## michael lai

> Anyone who is keeping these fellas can advice how u are keeping them? Have bought 5 of them and now left 3 in more than 1 week. They seems to be unwilling to compete for food with my other fishes (cherry barb, cardinal, rummy nose, drawf molly). Sometimes I throw in sinking food but they don't seem to eat them (at least when I'm watching). They are cute fellas and it is sad to see them go. Please advise. Thanks.
> 
> Something that I have noticed before they die. They would turn pale in colour and that is when they would die in a few days later. Anyone experience this before?


Dear Diki,
I believe they are suffering from some ailment but we need more info, any external signs of infection. ie: white spots, patches, rate of breathing would be of great help. Btw, they usually turn pale when they are about to die.

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## avant

i used to have them.. didn't survive long either.. feel that the ones being sold aren't really very very healthy and they get stressed or jittery very easy.. 
sudden movements will send them scuttling off..
i guess it will be good to have lotsa cover for them to hide, to let them feel secure...
good luck and hope someone can advise on the proper caring for such cute little creatures  :Smile:

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## Justikanz

I had khulis that grow FAT. They are not difficult. If they dun feed (cos most of them are from the wild), they could be stressed out by the tank's activity (or dun recognise other food, yet). Try feeding tubifex worms (best after the tank lights are out). And have the worms scattered on the substrate, instead of in the feeder. Also, it might help to proide some place for them to hide. They also do better in groups. After a while, they will be bold enough to roam freely and accept almost all food. They can be quite hardy after that...  :Smile:

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## K11

mine died on me also, only one left...

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## diki

> Dear Diki,
> I believe they are suffering from some ailment but we need more info, any external signs of infection. ie: white spots, patches, rate of breathing would be of great help. Btw, they usually turn pale when they are about to die.


There are some white spots found in some of my fishes but since not that many yet, I just try to up the water temp to 30 degrees and wait. The 2 that had died does not have any white spots on them. Most of them I noticed are breathing quite fast. No signs of infection though...

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## diki

> I had khulis that grow FAT. They are not difficult. If they dun feed (cos most of them are from the wild), they could be stressed out by the tank's activity (or dun recognise other food, yet). Try feeding tubifex worms (best after the tank lights are out). And have the worms scattered on the substrate, instead of in the feeder. Also, it might help to proide some place for them to hide. They also do better in groups. After a while, they will be bold enough to roam freely and accept almost all food. They can be quite hardy after that...


Is there any other way? Don't really want to feed them tubifex worms if I can. Won't the worms hide in the substrate and foul the water? How do u clean your tubifex worms before feeding your fish? If really need to, then will fish them out of my tank and feed them then. If nobody compete with them for food and also try to feed them other food, hope they can live longer. I know they are better in groups (I buy 5 of them) but since my tank is small (2 ft) and many other fishes in there, really must control my buying of new fishes if I can help it. Thanks for your advice.

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## diki

> i used to have them.. didn't survive long either.. feel that the ones being sold aren't really very very healthy and they get stressed or jittery very easy.. 
> sudden movements will send them scuttling off..
> i guess it will be good to have lotsa cover for them to hide, to let them feel secure...
> good luck and hope someone can advise on the proper caring for such cute little creatures


I have got a piece of driftwood and a java moss covered driftwood which provides some cover for them. However, since the space is also big enough for my other small fishes, they also come in and disturb them (especially feeding when I try to put food near the khulis outside the driftwood). Hope they can settle down in my tank soon.  :Sad:

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## valice

> Is there any other way? Don't really want to feed them tubifex worms if I can. Won't the worms hide in the substrate and foul the water? How do u clean your tubifex worms before feeding your fish? If really need to, then will fish them out of my tank and feed them then.


dun worry abt the tub worms fouling ur water. instead, they will aerate your substrate if they manage to dig into the substrate. they also dun die easily when in the tank when the tank is properly aerated.

the fouling is due to the water they are kept in and not themselves being smelly. feed abit at a time to see how fast they finish up their tub worms. then you dun need to worry too much abt excess worms swimming in your tank.

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## diki

> dun worry abt the tub worms fouling ur water. instead, they will aerate your substrate if they manage to dig into the substrate. they also dun die easily when in the tank when the tank is properly aerated.
> 
> the fouling is due to the water they are kept in and not themselves being smelly. feed abit at a time to see how fast they finish up their tub worms. then you dun need to worry too much abt excess worms swimming in your tank.


Thanks for clearing my doubt. However, I don't think the tubifex worms will get a chance to survive if they are dropped into my tank. Since I have been feeding my fishes once a day, food that goes in are quickly finished up by my cherry, cardinal, drawf mollies & rummy nose before my poor kuhli loach can get them. I also have 3 malayan shrimps in there which I think are growing well in there.

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## avant

ah... hmm...with the competition, it'll be quite hard for the kuhli to survive also... they'll be out-competed... 

i'll wanna try rearing them again if i can find nice ones haa.. i got another type of _Pangio sp._ that are faring well..for a few years.. and they don't seem to come out and eat haa... don't know what they have been surviving on..

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## Justikanz

> Is there any other way? Don't really want to feed them tubifex worms if I can. Won't the worms hide in the substrate and foul the water? How do u clean your tubifex worms before feeding your fish? If really need to, then will fish them out of my tank and feed them then. If nobody compete with them for food and also try to feed them other food, hope they can live longer. I know they are better in groups (I buy 5 of them) but since my tank is small (2 ft) and many other fishes in there, really must control my buying of new fishes if I can help it. Thanks for your advice.


Tubifex worms do not foul the water, contrary to what most people think. As Valice mentioned, they help aerate the substrate. They won't die if the water is good, i.e. oxygenated and clean (yes, the worms require clean water). But XnSdVd will warn you, do NOT use them with base fert. They will dig the fert upwards.  :Razz: 

Do NOT fish out the khulis just to feed them. It stressed them further, pushing them to death's door faster...

Sometimes, there is no choice but to use live food. And tubifex is the only useful live food in this case. The loaches will not be so enticed to take the brineshrimp or bloodworms (which MIGHT work but they are SO much bigger...). It should not be a long term matter. They will start accepting other foods once they start eating. The worms are to motivate them to start eating.  :Smile:

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## valice

> up by my cherry, cardinal, drawf mollies & rummy nose before my poor kuhli loach can get them.


Given that you have mollies, you're sure going to have a problem feeding those bottom dwellers... mollies are eating machines!  :Knockout:  just like goldfishes siah...

What I do with those mollies is that I feed some food away from the bottom dwellers then put the food for the bottom dwellers at some isolated space. Only hope that your loaches will be smart enough to notice that there is food at that place though... :Confused:

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## diki

> Tubifex worms do not foul the water, contrary to what most people think. As Valice mentioned, they help aerate the substrate. They won't die if the water is good, i.e. oxygenated and clean (yes, the worms require clean water). But XnSdVd will warn you, do NOT use them with base fert. They will dig the fert upwards. 
> 
> Do NOT fish out the khulis just to feed them. It stressed them further, pushing them to death's door faster...
> 
> Sometimes, there is no choice but to use live food. And tubifex is the only useful live food in this case. The loaches will not be so enticed to take the brineshrimp or bloodworms (which MIGHT work but they are SO much bigger...). It should not be a long term matter. They will start accepting other foods once they start eating. The worms are to motivate them to start eating.


Luckily I don't have base fert. BUT I have already taken them out of the tank and into a small container before I went to Malaysia on 25 Dec 05. One of them is starting to get pale again so I decided to take them out. Had a hard time doing that! However, took advice from u all and bought tubifex worms for them and my other fishes as well. They don't seem to eat much and also since I was not around for the past 2 days, they seems to have finished the tubifex worms that I have fed them before I went to Malaysia (have asked my sis to help me feed them when I not around).

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## diki

> Given that you have mollies, you're sure going to have a problem feeding those bottom dwellers... mollies are eating machines!  just like goldfishes siah...
> 
> What I do with those mollies is that I feed some food away from the bottom dwellers then put the food for the bottom dwellers at some isolated space. Only hope that your loaches will be smart enough to notice that there is food at that place though...


I try to put sinking food for them when the lights are out or drop them near where they like to hang around. However, not very successful. Since now they are isolated, hopefully they can start to get the hang of the food before I reintroduce them to the tank again. Pray this works. Hope to get another tank they can live there (instead of a container) and I might keep corys or clown loach with them as well (always wanting to keep some croys but scare they pull out my plants).  :Jump for joy:

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## XnSdVd

I happen to have khulis too. And yes, tubifex in large quantities will seriously f*ck up your tank. I've found that trumpet snails counteract tubifex by moving finer particles to the bottom so you'll have to work that out on your own. 

Anyway, how to feel your loaches: Snails. Snails are their natural food source in the wild along with worms. So throw in a few trumpets and some tubifex and your loaches should do fine. Good luck  :Grin:

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## diki

> I happen to have khulis too. And yes, tubifex in large quantities will seriously f*ck up your tank. I've found that trumpet snails counteract tubifex by moving finer particles to the bottom so you'll have to work that out on your own. 
> 
> Anyway, how to feel your loaches: Snails. Snails are their natural food source in the wild along with worms. So throw in a few trumpets and some tubifex and your loaches should do fine. Good luck


There are always some snails in my planted tank but the kuhlis don't seem bother them much. At least I do not see much difference. Was hoping that they would help me eat some snails and also leftover food (not much after scanned by cardinals, rummy nose, cherry barb & mollies). Will take your advice and throw in some small snails in there as well. Hope they can start to get the hang of the food before I reintroduce them back to my planted tank again. Thanks for all who provide me your advices.

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## XnSdVd

If all else fails I'll be happy to adopt the little guys  :Wink:

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## avant

apparently my tank of loaches tend to leave trumpet snails alone... the snails have sort of found a way to stay elusive.

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## diki

XnSdVd, will see how first. Unlikely I would give up on them for now. Will keep monitor them and hopefully they get the and of the food that I introduce in my tanks. If I give up on them, will consider your offer. Have just put in a snail that I managed to catch this morning. The snails seems to know I trying to catch them as they all MIA this morning. Will give them more if I can find and get my hands on them.  :Grin:  

avant, have heard they they are not that effective in eating snails. Maybe they are too small when I buy them (5-7cm) and too stressed. Bros here have mentioned that once they get used to their environment, they can eat properly. Then maybe they will work on the snails. :Evil:

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## Justikanz

IMO, khulis are not effective snail eaters... More like scavengers...  :Smile:

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## GaspingGurami

When I got my last batch 3 years ago, they were very sensitive and any small fluctuation to temperature or water parameters caused a bout of ich and the resultant casualties.

After getting acclimatised, they are now one of the hardiest in my tank. They have now come through all kinds of conditions: Hot 32degree water to cool 24 degrees; from non-co2 injection UGF tank to 80+ ppm (I see them lingering uncharacteristically at the surface and only then realise the high CO2); accidental overdose of H2O2 (fins started to bubble and burn); fert dosing accidents; overfeeding; underfeeding;and many other misadventures that took the lives of many others, but they prevailed.

Take heart. I've gone through many of them before I got this lucky good batch. Most of them from the LFS are already in bad shape to start with, and I have once taken a bag of 5 of them home to arrive with 1 dead, so don't be too discouraged with the deaths. I love these little creatures and have kept them since 1975, I don't try to feed them, letting them forage for leftovers, but having dirty gravel helps. I've once had a bunch of them stay under the UGF plate for months. I thought I lost them, till I applied a siphon to clean up the UGF months later. They probably survived on just munching mulm.

Here's a link to loaches online for more info on khulis.
http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/kloach.html

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## diki

Justikanz, I do agree with u on this. They seems to ignore snails.  :Crying:  But even got fish food drop in front of them they sometimes just ignore them.  :Mad:  

GaspingGurami, I have seen posts from other forumers that once they are acclimatised, they can be very hardy. Even a bro (Kenkht) told me they can survive in almost all the environment he has for his fishes. (even use them for cycling his tank before his shipment comes) I also got worried whenever I see them turn pale. Kenkht recommend lower Ph and more hidding space for them. After I got the shallow tank from him, they are now in this tank with some hidding place and low Ph (add ketapang leave into the tank). Hopefully they can recover to become healthy. I will not be dishearted and will continue to keep them until they all die on me. 

Thanks for all the bros that have advised me on the cute fellas.

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## K11

This Khuli loach, will it attack shrimps like the malayan and cherries in a planted environment? Uproot foreground plants like glosso or rooted plants?

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## Justikanz

IME, they are quite good diggers BUT seems like they prefer NOT to dig, if there are some mulm for them to play and hide in... They like to hide in moss clumps too...

I had 1 with my shrimps... Didn't know it is there before adding the shrimps... So far, think the adults are ok... No idea about the babies... But won't be surprised if it eats my cherry shrimplets...

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## K11

Intend to get six or so of this khulis for my 2ft planted wif glosso foreground which i jus added 100 malayans and 10 yamatoes thinking of adding another 50 cherries so some concern whether this khulis will be a potential trouble maker for my tank. Or six is too many for a small tank like mine?

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## XnSdVd

too many... I'd get about 3 if I were you.

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## diki

Just some update.

Got 2 kuhli loaches left, living in the shallow tank with female guppies. They usually tends to hide below the 2 driftwood that I have placed in the tank with a plastic mesh waiting for Singapore moss to grow out of it. They should have get used to the environment now and living well. : )

IMHO, cherries are rather small and might be bullied by yamotos and maybe malayan (mine quite like to snatch food from each other and some up to medium size yamotos already). However, looks like cherries are the only one able to spawn in the 2 ft tank as I still have 0 success with malayan in a 1 ft setup.

Kuhli loach are shy fellas so don't think they will bully the shrimps in a 2 ft tank. Provide them plenty of places to hide (driftwood or few handful of java moss should be ok). Since yamotos might nip on the fins, so need to watch out.

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## K11

Ok, think i will try it out wif 3 then, my tank is quite heavily planted, got driftwood for them to hide.

Saw one of the malayans carrying eggs, black color. don't know if it can get spawned... 

Well got to watch out the yamatos.

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## Quixotic

This is a good read, Practical Fishkeeping of January 2006 issue has a 3 page article on the Kuhlis.

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## XnSdVd

I think the ex-gratiola guys had some success in getting malayans to spawn in their 6ft. There were about 50 fry from the 10 adults in the tank. Think wackytpt or tanvincent would know how.

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