# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  Comments on our Gathering  29 Nov 2003

## gweesm1

Hi all, 

While the gathering was generally considered a success, I was too busy catching fry and packing fish, that I didn't really have a chance to talk to anyone. 

I did enjoy myself, however I was upset by one incident. The purpose of this gathering is for HOBBYISTS to gather, talk and buy killifish. 

A question was brought up as to why I brought 5 pairs of a certain species. This was to to make sure that 5 hobbyists could return home with a pair each, and not *ONE person hoarding FIVE pairs!!* 

Please note that this gathering was meant for hobbyists and not for people who have commercial interest to grab all the fish. In the future, the seller reverses the rights to sell, and not to sell. 

It is *not* by default, that auctioning is the only process, if the fish is in demand but it will work well if many individuals are interested in the fish, and not when *ONE* person trys to get all the fish. 

What I also saw, were hobbyists in school uniforms during the gathering. One does not expect them to complete with fat wallets in the auction, or do we?. 

I am aware that two other hobbyists were left with no choice but to give up the chance of owning the fish. The young boy who was determined to get the fish impressed me and I guess the other 2 decided not to turn up at the auction. 

It is perfectly ok with me, for people who have commercial interest to stay in the group, as we need *YOU* to bring in more species which we do not have locally. Your presence here will benefit us, however please do not try to monopolized the market by grabbing all the fish of certain species at the gathering. This is meant for hobbyists and not you alone, and your actions will make you look very unfriendly. If you are interested, I'm sure you can always make separate arrangement with the hobbyists and work out private transactions. 

The faces of the disappointment of the 3 hobbyists (2 students and an adult), is deeply engraved in my heart, when the 5 pairs of fish was called for auction just because 1 person wants 4 pairs. 

This has bothered me for the past 2 days and is still bothering me. 

One other thing. 

I hope the next gathering will be a discussion gathering or meet up for tea, food and friendly swaps rather than just sale of fish. 

Au and I could hardly have the chance to talk to anyone else as we so busy at the sales counter. I do not wish that the future gatherings is all about selling and it is not beneficial to new hobbyists, since knowledge is not imparted to them. It doesn't look really healthy, and to me, it seems more like a warehouse sale rather than a gathering. 

Pardon me if I am too frank, I *do* wish to make the gathering healthier and more informative. 

Moderators, feel free to remove, delete, or edit if you find any part of the post inappropriate. 

Regards,

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## stormhawk

Hi Sia Meng,

just thought i'd give my opinions. yes i do agree that perhaps some students may not have the financial ability like some adults have but there are still students who do have that ability. if in that case, we could have a separate auction for those who are still studying, just for the purposes of letting them get some of the fish that they've been eyeing.

i for one was pretty disappointed that i couldn't get your Simp. auratus but it was all fair play because i was too late to the cash register  :Smile:  maybe some other time i'd get my hands on the auratus. even Ronnie thinks its a pretty little fish. to be frank, i was pondering the decision to buy the fish due to the price. i usually consider first before buying but i will never ask for a discount. i believe your fish and anyone else's fish is worth the price that each species commands.

talking about the 'warehouse sale' effect, yes i was pretty astounded to see a whole lot of people in the shop when i was expecting just those from this forum. the turnout bodes well for the forum and for the killifish scene in Singapore. however, i do agree that some people did not get what they come for. but there's always another time and affected people can contact the respective breeders, provided the breeders have time to entertain their queries.

on the learning bit, i learnt quite a bit from Au when i had a conversation with him regarding SAAs and pretty much would like to learn from u too during the gathering but u were quite busy. well there's always a next time to listen and learn. 

and yes, my apologies for knocking over the container containing the fulminantis.  :Opps:  didn't notice the containers behind me while i was making my way into the back area.

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## RonWill

> Moderators, feel free to remove, delete, or edit if you find any part of the post inappropriate.


Sia Meng, your post is a reflection of how you felt about the gathering and I find nothing in the content that amounts to malicious or defamatory.

Your feedback will allow us as individuals and as a group, to improve upon what is overlooked. Deleting your post would be a loss to the forum.

Being one of those who were behind the scene and helping out, my appreciation and thanks, to you and others, for catering to the unexpected turnout.

At a personal level, and not as moderator, I feel that more exchanges amongst hobbyists would have left us yearning for more such gatherings.

For those with commercial interests, I personally feel that private arrangements would have been more fruitful, as the seller would be able to gauge his breeding programme or breeder stock, to your requirements.
It is, as far as I can see, a win-win situation for both parties.

Such are the things that need to be ironed out and I'm sure we'll all*** get better with future gatherings.

*** All, in this case, includes fellow forumers, organisers, commercial buyers and hobbyists. In short, everybody.

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## CM Media

The number of people turnout on the gathering reflects that this hobby is kicking off here in Singapore. There will be more to expect during the subsequent gatherings. 

Firstly, let me apologise for my lateness for delivering the killifishes to the gathering late. I was tiedup with my office work co-ordinating on something very important and I can't just left for the gathering without getting it done. 

During the gathering, I was too tiedup helping to record the sale and have no time to exchange ideas with fellow hobbyists. Perhaps you guys may want to post your queries here or even share you breeding techniques with the rest.

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## Daz

My apologies to all. I have full intention to go to this gathering but alas, some urgent matters prevent me from making this trip.

I am so very glad that this gathering is a success, hope the next one will come soon. Wish I am there to be able to get some cultures, the frys (from the eggs) Gan gave me is have grown to a size that I no longer know what to feed them. Tubifex worms seems to be too big for them, dry flakes just don't seems to have enough nutrition for them... now at a loss.

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## cks

Though I am not really into killies _per se_ but I really enjoyed myself and had an enriching experience with some killie breeders at the gathering.
I was really impressed with the student from RI who showed a lot of interest in the fish he acquired at the gathering - He knew his stuff.
Many thanks to the people behind the scene for taking the trouble to organise this gathering even though it was a bit 'organised chaos'
Cheers 
Dennis

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## PohSan

I would said that the gathering is a sucessfully one. However, I did noticed that Sia Meng was busying catching frys and Au was recording the sale. In this gathering, I were actually hoping sucessful breeder to share their precious experience with other and also a self introduction for all forum member.

I suggested that on the next gathering, fry will be sell maybe in a container of 8 or 10 so that it will be easier and faster to sell it to the buyer. 

Finally, I did noticed a man bought quite a number of frys and fishes but not even know how to hatch the brine shrimp. I am wondering how is his fishes now. Sorry no offend, just curious.

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## RonWill

> I would said that the gathering is a sucessfully one. However, I did noticed that Sia Meng was busying catching frys and Au was recording the sale.


Pohsan, yeah... everyone was doing their part to ensure a smooth flow of events. Hope you didn't miss out the guy who was all over the place with his toy camera :wink: 




> In this gathering, I were actually hoping sucessful breeder to share their precious experience with other and also a self introduction for all forum member.


Hopefully, we can cover that next.




> I suggested that on the next gathering, fry will be sell maybe in a container of 8 or 10 so that it will be easier and faster to sell it to the buyer.


My hindsight is 20/20 but it's my foresight that's blurry. Yes, that pre-packaging idea have been brought up and noted (heck! how could I have missed Sia Meng's frown!  :Rolling Eyes:  )

Kwek Leong was expecting students to turn up and where they couldn't allocate the budget for young adult fishes, at least there are affordable eggs and frys.




> Finally, I did noticed a man bought quite a number of frys and fishes but not even know how to hatch the brine shrimp. I am wondering how is his fishes now. Sorry no offend, just curious.


Not sure if we are talking about the same person who paid very close attention to me on the microworm culture.

Then again, besides BBS, there's always daphnia, infusoria and other small live foods.

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## timebomb

> Moderators, feel free to remove, delete, or edit if you find any part of the post inappropriate. 
> Regards,


Sia Meng,

I won't remove your post but I would strongly suggest you tone it down. To suggest that it was unethical for the person to want to buy all 5 pairs of the Fp gardneri is being too judgemental. 

Before the gathering, we did not make any rules that people with commercial interests are not allowed to buy all the fish so if there's anybody to be blamed for what happened during the gathering, it would be the organisers (I will be the first person in line  :Sad:  ). 

In any case, you don't have to feel sorry for the guys who didn't go home with the Fp gardneri pairs. For your information, they bought the juveniles and there were more than enough to go around. About 5 juveniles were left unsold and they are swimming happily in my tank now. You may like to know too that inspite of some persuasion on my part, they refused to buy more. One juvenile was being sold at $1.50 compared to the pair which was going at $8 each. I'm actually quite surprised and puzzled that the other 3 who expressed interest in the adult pairs were not willing to buy more of the juveniles. At $16 a pair, they would have bought 10 juveniles but the person who bought the most juveniles took only 8.

It's always best to look after the interests of everyone, whether they are students with shoe-string budgets or commercial breeders with unlimited budgets. It's foolish to accuse others of monopolosing the market when it's a free market in the first place. In any case, the line dividing someone who's a commercial breeder and a hobbyist can be pretty thin sometimes. Some people for instance, would see you as a commercial breeder for the simple fact that you have so many species of killies and are actively buying, selling and trading them with breeders from other nations. I've always believe that in order for this forum to do well, we should work hand-in-hand with the local fish shops and people with commercial interests. I'm not suggesting we that go commercial but without the fish shops, the hobby would die for all of us. 

The regional manager of Eheim Singapore was at the gathering and he gave me a bag of pens to distribute for free to everyone. I wouldn't turn down such a good offer although obviously the gift came with commercial interests. You can say Eheim was looking for some publicity but if it doesn't do any harm to anyone, why should we turn down an offer that benefits everyone? 

I would go as far as to say that if a commercial breeder had turned up and bought all the fish during the gathering, it would have been a good thing. For one thing, it would show that someone values the fish highly. Far too many times, I've seen hobbyists turn down fish which were going at low low prices. Many trays of fry and eggs were unsold. I took home 40 chocolate australe eyed-up eggs and a tray of about 50 gold australe fry. A year and a half ago, I would have paid an arm and a leg for such fry. To think that they were going at such low prices and still remained unsold is an indication that many people here don't understand how valuable and how difficult sometimes it is to obtain the fish. Frankly, I think we are spoiling the newbies. We are making things too easy for them. 

It would obviously be good if more time had been apportioned for people to chit-chat, exchange information and get to know one another better. But this is our first gathering and there are bound to be mistakes. I believe we all learnt something, first and foremost of which, is that we need a bigger place for future gatherings. We also need a better display rack and spread the fish around the shop so that people don't have to crowd around a small viewing place. Fry should always be prepacked because it can be hell catching them from a tray. 

All in all, I would say it was a huge success. Many thanks to all those who turned up and showed their support. We will do this again one day but it won't be so soon. 

Loh K L

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## looloo

Dear all...

The gathering was great in a sense especially since it was organized for the first time, I managed to get to know Ronnie, Francis and some other guy (really sorry forgot your name ha...) and got to learn a lot from them, from apistos to plants to killies... great learning from the experienced and old birds...

"However", too bad the other "experts" were busy attending to sales and stuff, I was actually hoping that you guys will be sharing your experiences through a "public" talk upstairs ha... it would have been better for some others who were ermmm more "shy", I had came alone, and if I didn't overhear Francis and friend talked about pencilfishes, I wouldn't have been able to make friends with them : )

but it has been real good, the auction was at eye opener ha... 

DesmonD

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## gweesm1

Emm I see where you are coming from, but do not agreed completely to what was mentioned. 




> In any case, you don't have to feel sorry for the guys who didn't go home with the Fp gardneri pairs. For your information, they bought the juveniles and there were more than enough to go around.


In any killifish gatherings, fish are preferred over fry and eggs as it is easier to tell if they are healthy as compared to fry and eggs. 

In fact I knew they bought the fry as I encouraged them to if any of the fish were grabbed up before they do. I was the one packing fry, remember?? However a few of them told me they prefer adult fish over fry, reasons being:-
Sex ratio unknown
How well does fry travel??
Are the fry healthy??
Will I get a better male from this lot??
These are actual question asked by the buyers.
But of course they were a few who preferred the fry, as they were cheaper.




> It's always best to look after the interests of everyone, whether they are students with shoe-string budgets or commercial breeders with unlimited budgets.


I do agree with this, but whos interest should we be looking at for a gathering like this? I am coming from the direction of a hobbyist, thus I am interested in getting the fish distributed to many people during the gathering.



> Some people for instance, would see you as a commercial breeder for the simple fact that you have so many species of killies and are actively buying, selling and trading them with breeders from other nations.


Frankly, I do not mind if people see me as a commercial breeder even though I am not. The reason being; I contribute in term of spreading the hobby, and most importantly being open on breeding techniques and imparting knowledge. For past few months a number people came to my house just to see what I do to breed killifish and I will usually encourage them to start with killifish only when they are ready. BTW most of them did not buy as they felt that they are not ready. But I am glad to see one of them here took my advise on reading up before committing on killifish. I learnt from the school of hard knocks, thus I hate to see hobbyists making the same silly mistake I made. 




> I've always believed that in order for this forum to do well, we should work hand-in-hand with the local fish shops and people with commercial interests.





> You can say Eheim was looking for some publicity but if it doesn't do any harm to anyone, why should we turn down an offer that benefits everyone?


Of course I always believe in working hand in hand with LFS. But what good will it do if one people grab all fish during a hobbyist gathering?

Loh I think it is common to have different opinions, but our goal here is to get the hobby popularise. Believe me, if you felt that what I said was judgemental, then a number of people who knew about this incident are equally as judgemental. If everyone is worried about voicing out, then I will have to be the bad guy.

If any part of the post sounds or is offensive, I apologise. Sorry my friend. (I really mean it) Frankly, I loose sleep over this post. :Crying:  

regards

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## RonWill

> Loh I think it is common to have different opinions, but our goal here is to get the hobby popularise. Believe me, if you felt that what I said was judgemental, then a number of people who knew about this incident are equally as judgemental. If everyone is worried about voicing out, then I will have to be the bad guy.


Sia Meng,
When one is able to "agree-to-disagree" without kicking up a storm and resorting to name calling, that's a sign of maturity in thoughts and IMHO, is healthy and lacking in many forums.

When everyone is thinking the same, we're not doing much thinking!

What that is 'judgemental', is based on experience learnt in our daily transactions with people and is as subjective, as the perceived value of the fishes we keep.




> If any part of the post sounds or is offensive, I apologise. Sorry my friend. (I really mean it) Frankly, I loose sleep over this post.


Can't sleep? Go change some water... the fishes will thank you for it :wink:

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## timebomb

> However a few of them told me they prefer adult fish over fry, reasons being:-
> Sex ratio unknown
> How well does fry travel??
> Are the fry healthy??
> Will I get a better male from this lot??
> These are actual question asked by the buyers.
> But of course they were a few who preferred the fry, as they were cheaper.


For those of us who started off with eggs, the questions (quoted above) raised by the guys sound really frivolous. As I have said a couple of times, we are spoiling them. 

Sia Meng, I've got nothing against people having different opinions but your initial post sounded harsh, especially when you put certain phrases in bold lettering. I didn't want to mention this earlier but for his sake, I think I better. 

The guy who supposedly has commercial interests is Darren Lum. He wrote me one week before the gathering. In his email, he told me he is planning on buying many of the killies on sale and he was concerned that if he does that, others may see it as being unfriendly. Darren has plans to open a fish shop specialising in killies and he already has a breeding room set up in an industrial park. Darren also said in his email that he loves the fish very much and that it is his dream to spread the love of the fish to many others. 

I know Darren isn't very active in this forum, thereby giving the impression that he's not very helpful. But I can assure you that he's just as helpful as anyone here. His problem is that he just doesn't have enough time. Besides taking care of his killies, Darren has a full-time job. He spends all his free time (after working hours) in his breeding room which does not have a computer. So I really won't hold anything against him just because he's less active here than others.

Privately, I have told many people that in order for a really active killifish scene to take place here, we need someone like Darren Lum. The few fish shops that currently sells killies cannot do much because the fish shop owners themselves know too little about the fish. 

If you ask me, I think Darren is taking a big risk. Chances of him realising his dream are very slim because the market for killies is just too small. But I would go as far as I can to help someone like Darren. Many of us who claim to love the fish very much wouldn't even dare think about doing what Darren is attempting. He's going to quit a stable well-paid job and a lot of money to do this. He's going to risk a lot and I wish him all the best. 

Sia Meng, in your initial post, you wrote that "In the future, the seller reverses the rights to sell, and not to sell." 

Although you have the right to do that, I have to tell you that I'm disappointed you choose to say something like that without discussing with me first. Every seller has the right to change his mind and not sell his fish but I can assure you that the buyer would see this as being very unfriendly. If word gets around that during our gatherings, fish that are put on sale may not be sold if the seller doesn't like the buyer's attitude, then you can be sure no one will turn up in future gatherings.

Loh K L

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## RonWill

> The guy who supposedly has commercial interests is Darren Lum. He wrote me one week before the gathering. In his email, he told me he is planning on buying many of the killies on sale and he was concerned that if he does that, others may see it as being unfriendly. Darren has plans to open a fish shop specialising in killies and he already has a breeding room set up in an industrial park. Darren also said in his email that he loves the fish very much and that it is his dream to spread the love of the fish to many others.


Kwek Leong, let's not get too worked up over this as I can see that although each is differently inclined, we ALL have the SAME goals!

It's comical in a sense, that all this could have been avoided and it's mostly due to failure in communication.

Had you diverge the necessary details and had Darren attended the pre-gathering meet, this wouldn't have happened but on the contrary, I believe that Darren would garner even more support towards his endeavours.

Silence isn't always 'golden'... think about it.

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## timebomb

> Had you diverge the necessary details and had Darren attended the pre-gathering meet, this wouldn't have happened but on the contrary, I believe that Darren would garner even more support towards his endeavours.


Ronnie,

The pre-gathering meet was only for people who were selling many fish so since Darren wasn't selling any, it didn't occur to me then that I should ask him to come along.

You're probably right to say that "silence isn't always golden". But I didn't want to reveal what Darren is doing earlier because it was told to me in private. 

In any case, I would appeal to everyone here to help Darren Lum. If there's anyone who's worthy of help here, it's him. Like I've said, he's risking a lot and all of us here should try to help him succeed. 

I gave Darren all my Aphy. australes and many of my other fish. Unlike hobbyists, Darren needs more than just one pair because he has to build up a big pool of killies before he can open a fish shop. 

Loh K L

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## gweesm1

This is supposed to be read in soft and slow tone.




> Although you have the right to do that, I have to tell you that I'm disappointed you choose to say something like that without discussing with me first. Every seller has the right to change his mind and not sell his fish but I can assure you that the buyer would see this as being very unfriendly. If word gets around that during our gatherings, fish that are put on sale may not be sold if the seller doesn't like the buyer's attitude, then you can be sure no one will turn up in future gatherings.


Loh, I agreed with you but have you put yourself in the shoe of the other buyers? By not selling my fish to a buyer who has the intention to grab all will appear that I am unfriendly to only one buyer, but I have made other buyers happy. If I have allowed the buyer to grab all, this will appear that the buyer is unfriendly to all other buyers or worst, they thought that the buyer and seller have hidden agenda.

Rest assured that I am not trying to bring Darren down. By starting this post, I was hoping that you will see thing in a different perspective, which you and Darren might have missed. I am not speaking only for myself, believe me quite a number of people here is feeling what I feeling, and you cant deny the fact what was done was sore to a number of people. So are we going to ignore them?

Loh, I know you are very disappointed with me, and my presence might seem unfriendly to you and Darren. I know what I post might have hurt our friendship. I guess I will have to leave the site for the good of everyone. I will still continue my goal as an individual or perhaps with the help from some friends.

My days in killies.com has been a wonderful and I am always grateful to you. 

I shall end my post here regardless what the reply will be.

Regards,

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## timebomb

> I am not speaking only for myself, believe me quite a number of people here is feeling what I feeling, and you cant deny the fact what was done was sore to a number of people. So are we going to ignore them?


All the more, the fact that you hinted in your earlier post and said so again now, that there are many others who think like you, I have to try and put things right.

Darren was willing to go through an auction when the number of Fp gardneri's on sale were not enough to go around. The other buyers, except for one, did not even bother to turn up for the auction when I wanted to conduct it. Nothing is fairer than to put the fish through an auction when there are too many buyers, for the simple reason an auction would find it's true market value. The way I see it, Darren and the young boy who went upstairs for the auction were the 2 persons who value the fish most so if you ask me, they deserve to own the fish. 

Just before I started the auction, I asked the young boy how many pairs he wanted and he said "one pair". I then asked Darren if he's willing to take only 4 out of the 5 pairs available and he magnanimously said "yes". So there was no need for an auction and they both went home happy.




> My days in killies.com has been a wonderful and I am always grateful to you.


I hope you will reconsider your decision. I can't stop anyone from joining or leaving this forum on their own free will but if it makes you feel better, I will apologise for sounding harsh in my reply to your post. People will always have different opinions on different matters and you should not leave just because I disagree with you. You have been my close friend ever since the day you first came to my house to see my killies and I would hate to see you leave this forum. But I will always keep the interests of this forum above anyone else's so even if you are my best friend, I will publicly disagree with you if I think what you said is wrong.

To Ronnie, who hinted in another topic that Darren should bring in his own eggs, let me just say he's been trying to do that and have done so several times already. 

Loh K L

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## RonWill

> Unlike hobbyists, Darren needs more than just one pair because he has to build up a big pool of killies before he can open a fish shop.


BINGO! I can't agree with you better and just so I'm not missing the forest while looking at the trees, where is this big pool of killies suppose to come from? Indonesia, Malaysia or Taiwan?

Pairs? Yeah right... let's turn to the LFS and wring their necks for females!

If I had to put it any more blunt, a few of us here have tasted what 'pedigree' looks like (I know I have) and very unlikely to revert back to 'mongrels'. There are lovable mutts, but a pedigree is still a pedigree.

Like it or not, Kwek Leong, we have started a trend, an awareness, and unknow imports by LFS OR corrupted codes, will never be looked at with the same light again or warmly received.

The way I see it, the most reliable source for Darren is still via serious hobbyist. The motto of "for hobbyists, by hobbyists" appeal to me immensely.

As is, it's a very niche market for killies and Darren really cannot afford not to stay in touch with the 'flow'. Not having a 'puter in the breeding room is, at best, pretty lame reasoning (my opinion only and nothing personal intended).

At a broader level, AKA has gone online with their F&EL and their forum. The validity of being IT illiterate no longer stands nor should it hinder the progression of reaching out... it's time to shape out or ship out.

I am neutral at this point, just as my appointment as moderator demands so, and for the best interest of the forum, I shall be locking the thread and respectfully request that it remains so.

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## RonWill

Dear all,

Just as we rewet our nothobranchius eggs, to have a second chance of getting more fry, I'm unlocking this thread to allow insights as to what may have transpired and it is considered fair to allow the other party to voice up too.

We are passionate about our killies, but let's maintain a reign on our emotions.

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## timebomb

> I'm unlocking this thread to allow insights as to what may have transpired and it is considered fair to allow the other party to voice up too.


Thanks for unlocking the thread, Ronnie. I believe we shouldn't sweep things under the carpet. So it would be better to let this thread run its course and let everyone has his or her say. 

I may have sounded harsh or emotional in some of my posts but there was never any intention on my part to run down anyone. I do believe in a democratic society where everyone is given the right to voice his opinions. But a truly democratic society would also be one where everyone has to live with the fact that there may be many others who disagree with you.

Basically, the gist of Sia Meng's first post was that he feels we should accord some form of priority to hobbyists. In other words, he wants us to give special preference to people who are hobbyists over those people with commercial interests.

I disagree because I feel that everyone should be treated equally. 

If you have anything to say about this, we would love to hear from you.

Loh K L

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## stormhawk

well i've got a bit to add on. to Mr Loh, i believe that no matter how frivolous a question may seem, its still a question and as a seasoned aquarist, one should and try his/her best to answer the questions. you must understand that beginners always have a fear of things. 

as a beginner in killies myself, i must state my reasons as to why i didn't get the australe eggs. i did intend to but i decided not to because i feel i won't have the time on my hands to tend to the fry everyday. i'm still in the army and this particular month of December, i've got a pretty packed schedule. thats why i decided not to get the eggs because i wouldn't want to see the fry die while they're in my care. but that doesn't mean i won't get my own eggs. in fact i plan to obtain eggs by myself next year, when i'm not too busy with my workload.

there are many reasons why beginners would give a pass on fry and eggs. thats because they're afraid of massive die-offs, be it from the fry or the eggs. and the very reason stems from the fact that they're beginners. like Sia Meng said, "i learnt from the school of hard knocks", thats pretty true but it can be rather disheartening for a beginner to see their first fry die on them or seeing their eggs not hatching. this can pretty much kill their passion for killies in the first place.

on a personal note, i remembered asking Sia Meng what he feeds his killies at home because i was planning to get the Simp. auratus and his answer was, IIRC - "all killies eat the same things". thats not very helpful to me. dietary needs may differ between killie species and by knowing the diet of the killies from the breeder himself, i, as a buyer will know what to feed them without having to worry about them starving due to the lack of the correct foods.

some people may feel that killies sold at LFS are not as valuable or as pure as those with a collection code or a geographical name attached to their scientific names. but i believe that every fish is equal, be they hybrids or pure-breds. what may seem as a worthless fish may look like a valuable fish to others. like they say, one man's meat is another man's poison. in fact, it has been stated on Tim Addis's site on West African Killies, that the crossing of two populations of the ANN have resulted in a much stronger fish. aquarium strains have their pros and cons too and we cannot possibly satisfy everyone's needs, be it professional keepers, purists or the run-by-the-mill customer at the LFS. in my view, as a killie enthusiast, one should treat all killies the same, regardless of whether they're pure strains, aquarium strains or hybrids. the fish are not at fault, we are. 

as a breeder, Sia Meng should by all means go all out to propagate his fish. but he should not have judged people on their intentions. i mean, everyone here has a right to own the fish, even if they intend to "sapu" everything, if thats what Sia Meng thinks. a single pair may not be enough and some people tend to buy more pairs in the hope that IF one pair dies, there's another pair to carry on the line. and even then, with several pairs, one can maintain the population's genetic diversity without having to deal with severe inbreeding problems. one should think out of the box rather than to think within the box.

and yes, he did mention that some people kept viewing the fish several times and he thinks the fish got pretty stressed. well for starters, take a look at any LFS and u can see people gawking at fish tanks before they start taking a net and catching the fish. everyone will look for the best looking fish and if it entails the viewing of the containers or tanks several times, then they'll do it, even if the fish get stressed. try asking the bettas in the plastic containers at most shops whether they're stressed. cost is also a factor to consider for most buyers, especially those with lesser cash to spare. a fish priced at $50 may seem pretty steep to those who may not have realised the rarity or the value of the fish. i for one would hesitate to think for a moment before i plonk down my cash for a one-shot $50 purchase, be they killies or other fish. in fact, i considered for a long time before i ended up buying a $35 corydoras. 

lastly, i agree with Ronnie's motto that its "for hobbyists, by hobbyists". the reason why i didn't get any killies from any LFS is because i believe that home breeders will produce better quality killies as they've put in the time and effort to raise these guys to maturity and eventually for sale. therefore i believe that the pricing is pretty much justified, even if i feel its a bit too expensive. and yes, i do agree that asking for discounts, even tiny ones are really unnerving to a person who has devoted his time and effort to raising these fish.

just my views, no offence intended whatsoever. :wink:

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## stormhawk

just another point to add, i believe that almost everyone of us has a group of australes at home, with the exception of myself, who is planning to but have not yet obtained any. the chocolate, orange and gold strains are pretty much considered as aquarium strains to me but i see no wrong in keeping an aquarium strain, even if they're not a pure strain. in fact, i believe that keeping aquarium strains are part and parcel of the killie experience. :wink:

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## timebomb

Jianyang,

You made some very good points, most of which I'm in agreement with. But we are drifting "out of topic". I would like to address the question of preserving collection codes for our fish and all but let's leave that for another topic. In this thread, I would just like to address the question whether we should treat commercial breeders differently. 

I'm all for the motto suggested by Ronnie, "For hobbyists, By hobbyists". But I'm concerned that some people here seem to be taking a "holier than thou" stance. A hobbyist is not in any way holier than a commercial breeder, that's my point. Many of us like to see ourselves as hobbyists because unlike commercial breeders, it gives us the feeling that we aren't in it for the money. Fair enough. If you love the fish and like to keep and breed them, that's perfectly alright with everyone. But please do not see commercial breeders in a different light. They may be doing it for the money but many, if not all of them would have started off as hobbyists too. I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to try and make some money from selling his fish or eggs for a profit. Without them, the hobby would be less interesting for all of us.

The way I see it - The difference between a hobbyist and a commercial breeder is like how sportsmen were viewed by the public many years ago. In the old days, there were amateurs and professionals. Professionals were seen in a lesser light because unlike amateurs, they were seen as people who were doing it for the money. So professionals were banned from participating in many major sports events, including the Olympics. And eventually, that gave rise to a new breed of sportsmen, known as Shamateurs, people who were training full-time. Many of them were from communist countries. They live and die by the sport but they were never classified as professionals for the absurd reason that they supposedly had other jobs, like carpenters or drivers. It was obviously a big sham, a farce.

Nowadays, people don't make a distinction between an amateur and a professional anymore. I think the same should apply to this hobby too. 

If you keep many species of killies and you are actively buying, selling and trading your eggs with breeders from other nations and you call yourself a hobbyist, what is the factor that makes you different from a commercial breeder? Is it because you think you are more helpful? Is it because you sometimes give your fish and eggs away for free? Or is it because you believe you are more willing to share your knowledge? 

None of these would make you any different from many commercial breeders who are just as willing to share their expereinces and give away their fish for free. Tony Teiceira would be someone who's a commercial breeder in every sense of the word as he sells his fish through his web site. Same goes for William Shennefelt. But these 2 gentlemen gave me my first few batches of killifish eggs for free and refused to accept payment even when I offered it. Both Tony and William are always there on KillieTalk Digest sharing their experiences. 

So before you take on a holier than "commercial breeder" attitude, I would ask you to do some soul-searching and ask yourself truthfully whether you should be considered a commercial breeder or a hobbyist. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, whichever one you are, it makes no difference to me as long as you help promote the hobby.

Loh K L

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## PohSan

As a beginner to attend the gathering, besides meeting all the forum members in the gathering, I will also hope to get the fish and plants which I am always hoping to get. And I was fortunate to get all of them. 

From my personal point of view, gathering is not the same as commerical sale. Gathering is for experience hobbyist to exchange experience with each other and also give advices to beginner likes me. It is also a meeting section for hobbyist to buy / exchange fish or plant which they don't have. It is not possible or difficult for hobbyist to bring a large quantity of killies of the same species to the gathering and I would said 5 to 6 pairs is a fair number. Everyone should entitle to buy one or two pair unless that fish is under demand. If someone really wanted to buy killies in large quantity, I would suggested him to get it from those hobbyists who keep a large variety of killies directly. Darren Lum was once my platoon mate so I hope that he do not mind what I had said. 


Stormhawk wrote:



> IF one pair dies, there's another pair to carry on the line. and even then, with several pairs, one can maintain the population's genetic diversity without having to deal with severe inbreeding problems


I agreed on your points but the gathering is for people to finally own the fish they always wanted. But if eveyone buy more than one pair of killies during gathering to widthen their safety net, there will not be sufficient fish to satisfy all the people. Most of the fishes that was sold during the gathering are not rare in Singapore so if the fish die and need more fish to reduce inbreed problem, they can alway approach the breeder. I am sure that the breeder will be very happy to help also.

Finally, all the above is just my personal view, I hope no one is offended. If yes, please accept my apology. 

Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## CM Media

When I was first exposed to killifish, I also have some reservations. I keep asking myself should I start on eggs or should I start with adult fish. After some findings done on the new, I realize that the chances for me to buy killifish from overseas is almost impossible. After some thought and with my past experiences on breeding aquatic fishes, I finally settled down with starting on eggs. So I can understand why most of the prefer to get the adult fish rather then on the young fry and eggs. The process for them to start with eggs and fry to get the next generation started is longer and higher risk involve. If I have the luxury to get a breeding pair locally, Ill more willing to pay for it rather than to start from eggs. 
Thats why on the gathering, most of the hobbyists prefer to get the adult pair rather than on the young fish if they can afford.




> on a personal note, i remembered asking Sia Meng what he feeds his killies at home because i was planning to get the Simp. auratus and his answer was, IIRC - "all killies eat the same things". thats not very helpful to me. dietary needs may differ between killie species and by knowing the diet of the killies from the breeder himself, i, as a buyer will know what to feed them without having to worry about them starving due to the lack of the correct foods.


As for other beginners, well tend to tell them exactly what we feed to our fish. As this maybe the first time theyre keeping fishes. What Sia Meng and myself perceive you as an experience breeder based on the post youve posted in the past. If you scan through the past posts, youll realize that this topic had already being bought discussed before. All killifish prefer live food rather than dried food. When we take about live food for adult fish, what do you think were referring to? Beside tubifex, bloodworms and brine shrimps and an added bonus if you have grindal worms.




> in my view, as a killie enthusiast, one should treat all killies the same, regardless of whether they're pure strains, aquarium strains or hybrids. the fish are not at fault, we are.


I respect your own point of view for treating all killifish alike be it an aquarium strain or pure breed. Here were saying that we should take the trouble to maintain all collection code of the fish as possible. There are about 700 species of killifish recorded and new species are being discovered yearly. Isnt that more than enough to sustain the killifish hobby! New hobbyists that just joined the hobby may not know why we take the trouble to maintain the collection code. In fact most fish are facing the threat of extinction! Their habitat had being destroyed for development.




> as a breeder, Sia Meng should by all means go all out to propagate his fish. but he should not have judged people on their intentions. i mean, everyone here has a right to own the fish, even if they intend to "sapu" everything, if thats what Sia Meng thinks. a single pair may not be enough and some people tend to buy more pairs in the hope that IF one pair dies, there's another pair to carry on the line. and even then, with several pairs, one can maintain the population's genetic diversity without having to deal with severe inbreeding problems.


If Sia Meng is not committed to propagate his fish and pass it around here, I doubt you would have a chance to see so many killifish on the gathering. Just imagine if one come all the way hoping to get a pair of fish to start off, and realize that someone had grab all the fish from the particular specie who would one feel. I come to the gathering with 2 main objectives. First is to meet up with fellow hobbyists and exchange ideas and to provide an avenue for hobbyists to get the fish. Thats why I try to bring a few pairs each to be distributed on that day and Im also prepared to bring all the left over fishes back with me. We would discourage the same person to grab all the fish from the same specie. With always think its better to spread the fish around to serve as a safety net here and if one person couldnt succeed, we still have the other to rely on.



For your info, during our eve of the gathering, we did have our discussion and I mentioned clearly that well have 2 very rare fish on display. Our intention is to let you guys to have a chance to see the real fish during the gathering. We dont intend to sell them at all! But on second thought we have to take care of the interest of the shop owner who let us use the place to conduct the gathering. Thats why we tagged a price to the fish hoping no one will buy them and we can bring it back after the gathering. 

I sincerely hope that we have a clear mind that this is a very new hobby here and therere bound to have teething problems during the initial stage. Im not siding anyone nor targeting at anyone. I may have quoted some statements that Stormhawk have posted, but do not take it too personal as I just using it as an example. Were all here to get the hobbyists kick off and create a better awareness for hobbyists that there are such rare fish exist. Our primary goal is to spread the hobby here with the right path and attitude. So if there is a difference in our secondary goal be it youre a pure hobbyist nor with commercial interest it should not make any difference. The fact of this unique hobby we cant deny is that theres always an exchange of eggs and fish or sale of excess eggs and fish to get the fund for obtaining new species is part and puzzle of killifish breeding. So how you term the person (with commercial interest or pure hobbyist) is not important. After all its the passion we all have for the fish

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## imported_lily

I never like to interfere with incidents like this nor write long posts but this time despite my poor English, I want to speak my mind. The purpose of the gathering was to have a get- together and some fun, because we often wonder how this or that fellow looks like behind his or her machine. Personally, I have always thought that the forum has brought us closer in a circle and a meet-up would definitely strengthen the bonds of our friendship. I guess I was wrong with what I first thought.  :Rolling Eyes:  

Sia Meng, you can never make everyone happy. Every one of us knew that in this gathering, there are going to be sales of fishes and eggs and as the forum is open to the public, non-members are able to know about the on-going events. For those with commercial interests, they would be delighted that there is such sales going on and they will not miss the opportunity to grab some species. Even without the gathering, I believe they will still have other sources to get the species they want. Pardon me for saying so, the amount they paid was quite reasonable.

Your interest in selling your fishes will be successful only when there are willing buyers. When someone wants to buy all your fishes at your requested price, I do not see why you should be so upset over this as there is a saying that goes The early bird catches the worms, or while stocks last, so whoever steps forward to pay, the sale is closed. Sounds like aunties buying fishes in the market but would anyone spend money buying something that is not to their interests? The way they see it and how we look at it would be very different. 

What you do not understand is there are people who may have deliberately waited until the end of the day so that they might get what they want at lower prices. Even though I did not witness the transaction of the sales that night, I did noticed that all those fishes up for sale were placed on the table and wasnt it on a first come, first serve basis or were there special arrangements made that upset you? I wanted that pair or trio on the counter too but was told someone already reserved it, so you see I was disappointed too but I thought nothing about it because if there was anyone to be blamed, it was me because I was late.  :Crying:  

I think you are being impulsive about withdrawing yourself from the forum. Just some setbacks and you are quick about leaving. You are still very young and you react differently but I hope you will give it a second thought. I suddenly realized, to have this forum run smoothly is not easy because if everyone choose to leave on every little setback, not only will the problems remain unsolved, there wont be any progress too. I remember a Chinese proverb that goes like: Failure is the mother of all success so as Lohs good friend, the more you should not quit. The point is, you cannot please everyone on such occasions. At the end of the day, some will frown and some will smile. From what I saw, the sales were good and I did not detect any sense of dissatisfaction or unhappiness during the gathering.  :Confused:  

Perhaps some valuable feedback from those who were utterly disappointed about the gathering will help improve on the organizing. Without any feedback, we will never know what went wrong. Well, if this one did not work out well, the next will definitely be better. I am very sure of it!

Sorry for being so long winded. It wont happen again, I hope.  :Mr. Green:

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## timebomb

I think it's a good sign that we can have different opinions on a subject matter and we are willing to argue about it but we do so in a civil manner. Many of you expressed reservations that your opinions may be offensive to others. Frankly, I don't think you should worry too much about that so long as what you wrote is not a personal attack on anyone.

Poh San came up with a good point when he suggested that in future gatherings, we should restrict buyers to one or 2 pairs of killies. We will take note of this and see if such a rule is beneficial to everyone. It may sound like a perfectly good rule now but it can happen that if there's only one person interested in a particular species, it would be ridiculous if we restrict him to 2 pairs when he's willing to take all pairs available. 

Au thinks it's unimportant if a person is a pure hobbyist or a commercial breeder and what counts is his passion for the fish. My sentiments exactly. We shouldn't make distinctions as the line separating a keen hobbyist from a commercial breeder is a very fine one. If you ask me, I think some of us has already crossed this line but as Au said, it's not a big deal. 

Lily thinks that Sia Meng is being impulsive to withdraw from the forum. Frankly, I think so too. Sia Meng has always been a valuable member of this forum and my close friend. But he's young and I know he gets upset easily. There's no reason why he should leave just because I said I was disapointed by what he wrote. I wasn't disappointed with him but only with the sentence he wrote where he said that in future gatherings, the seller has the right to reverse his sales. That would, in effect, be making a rule. I would say, if you want to make some new rules, you should at least check with those doing the organising first. 

There were contingency plans made on the eve of the gathering that should too many buyers want to buy the same fish, the fish would be put through an auction. There were never any rules on a "first come, first served" basis because if we had such a rule, a riot may break out when people rush to be the first in line. I wasn't aware that there was so much interest in the $50 pair of Simp. that Au brought or else I would have put that pair through an auction.

In future gatherings, more fish will be sold through auctions. I think there's nothing fairer than to let an auction determine the fish's true market value. But it will be on a request basis. In other words, if you are selling your fish and you think they are quite rare, you can request that your fish be sold through an auction. You decide your own base price and the one doing the auctioning will help you get the best price for your fish. It is very likely that there will be more hobbyists selling fish in the next gathering because many here now have eggs or fry that are not common. 

Jianyang spoke on behalf of all beginners when he wrote that they have reservations about buying eggs or fry. I think what we need is to educate them more on how to raise fry and hatch eggs. Ronnie brought many eyed-up eggs and healthy fry and it was such a pity the beginners didn't buy them. 

I wrote that many of the newbie questions were frivolous because being someone who knows how heartbreaking it is to end up with eggs that don't hatch, I find it hard to understand why people are afraid to buy healthy fry. I'm old and impatient. When you're old, you don't have time to be patient.  :Laughing: 

To conclude, I would appeal to you all to help me persuade Sia Meng to change his mind and come back to this forum. He doesn't realise how serious it can be but being one of the regulars here, by declaring his intention to leave this forum, he has in some way put the whole future of this forum in jeopardy. As Lily said, if everyone leaves on every little setback, very soon there will be no members left. 

The killifish hobby is still in its infancy stage in Singapore. We need a core group of dedicated hobbyists to promote the hobby and help this forum grow. Sia Meng is one such hobbyist and we cannot afford to lose him.

Loh K L

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## Daz

Having read all feedbacks and comments, I feel that I should have point out a couple of things.

1. The sales of eggs, frys and fish is I suppose intended for hobbist to lay their hand on killifish. But it have not been stated that commercial breeders are not suppose to buy.

2. Looking at it in a long run, hobbist might not have enough time and expertise to look after the fishes well, thus if the intention is to spread the hobby around, isn't it good to have some LFS owner to keep killifish? How often do you see killifish sold in LFS? If not for the 2 killifish for sale I saw at Karin's shop, I will never even know of this species.

3. True, students and young people do not have the spending power of the commerial breeders, but I believe if the buyer speaks to the seller directly to indicate his/her interest, I believe the seller will work out something with the buyer. Maybe call the buyer when there's new eggs/frys. This gathering is not the end it all sales, I am sure the seller will still have a couple of breeding trios at home.

4. Let's face it, like it or not for this species to take off locally, IMO the LFS will need to see the commercial value of carrying this species and profit. I am pretty sure that most if not all of us will hopefully be able to walk into a LFS and view the different species killifishes before you buy. Much like how you view the tetras before deciding to get the Neon, Cardinal, Green Neon, Beacon, etc.

having said all this, I hope that hobbist and commercial breeders can co-exist for future gathering, we all know deep inside, the simple fact of 'Demand and Supply'. Demand from hobbist and supply of course from the breeders, i am sure most hobbist hope one fine day they can call a local breeder to order 20 eggs of a not-too-easy-to-find species they want.

my 2 cents worth. worth the 2 cents or waste of your bandwidth, you decide.....

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## PohSan

Stormhawk wrote:



> but i see no wrong in keeping an aquarium strain, even if they're not a pure strain. in fact, i believe that keeping aquarium strains are part and parcel of the killie experience.


It is really up to you to keep a mixed strain killies. But please do not sell it to any one unless they are aware of what they are buying.

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## stormhawk

Au, point noted. just as how i seem to be experienced in breeding, my knowledge is limited to just several other fish as these are not killies. this is my first time breeding killies because my earlier notho quintet died before i could get the stuff up for them to breed.

as for raising fry, i always have reservations because i've never raised a single fry to maturity from my other spawns (catfish, cichlids, bettas.. etc.) most likely it's through my negligence (i admit, i can get pretty lazy at times) or to the basic lack of proper live foods for the fry. back then, i didn't have people like Ronnie, who would pass me a live grindal worm culture, let alone a microworm culture. and now that i have access to my very own cultures, i must say that i am rather confident i can raise killie fry to maturity. with guidance from seniors here like you and everyone else, i believe that for once,i will finally see a fish fry that i bred grow into a beautiful adult.

i am still a beginner and have never considered myself otherwise. you gave me some great insights into SAAs and i think Sia Meng would be a good mentor to me too in the area of SAAs. i consider everyone here to be my mentors and people who would guide other beginners like me on the proper ways and means of keeping killies. and this is the very reason why i feel that this forum is like a big family to me. i used to think that i couldn't find a place that i could feel comfortable in but the people here are very understanding and very willing to share their knowledge and opinions, just like how they are willing to help others in need. and at least here, things are conducted in a civil manner unlike what i've witnessed elsewhere.

PohSan, no worries there. just as how i believe that keeping aquarium-bred killies as part and parcel of killie keeping, i also ascribe to the school of thought that population codes and geographic locations be maintained per species/population just so that we can do our part to conserving these beautiful fish. and frankly speaking, i don't think i'm ready to think about selling, but rather i prefer to trade.

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## stormhawk

to Sia Meng,

do return for i believe u have more to contribute to the hobby, just like everyone else, be it for commercial reasons, or purely out of passion.
and yes, i need u to teach me more about the incubation periods of the other Simp. species, so please, do return.

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## inspirational

Sia Meng is a helpful guy, its really a loss for the killies forum if we really lose him. Intially i know nothing about killifish, he was the guy who sold me my first batch of killifish and i carry on to acquire more new species from the others. 

I understand how he feels, he is really a keen hobbyist who wants to spread this hobby rather than selling his fish to someone who doesn't really take care of his killifish. Guys, try to persuade Sia Meng to return or its really a great loss to this forum.

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## FC

I just discovered this heated discussion here. I find it is rather uncalled for. See, this site we have, with KL's blessing, is in infant stage and so is the first meet KL ever had organised for the members here at Far East.

Remember, people makes mistake, conciously or not. If anyone needs to comments, please be graceous, speak with calm head and do it constructively and in a manner that help the other party to improve.

Let's be constructive. I will start a new thread for those who wish to contribute their views on how future meets should run. Sia Meng, I would appreciate that you give your view there too. I beleive you have geniune complaints but be calm. We are into hobby and leisure comes first.

KL & Ronnie, may I request to delete this thread? I find it serving no real purpose.

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## timebomb

> KL & Ronnie, may I request to delete this thread? I find it serving no real purpose.


Freddy,

I don't believe in deleting threads because that would be like practising censorship. I believe we are matured enough to argue about matters and deleting a thread would be equivalent to covering-up, something I'm loathed to do. I've always believe in being open and sincere.

Ronnie actually locked this thread but on my request, he unlocked it. This is because we have to let Darren Lum speak in his own defense. It wouldn't be fair if we don't give him a chance. He sms me this morning to say he would be posting tonight. He's a busy man so we have to give him time.

So far in this forum, I never had to edit or remove anyone's post. If there's any editing or removing to be done, I would prefer the one who made the post to do so him/herself. I've always been quite fierce in this forum but many of you know me well and know that I'm sincere. I admit sometimes I can be quite harsh but I hold no grudges against anyone. 

Loh K L

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## darrenlum

Hi to all killies hobbyists,

Okay, Ive just returned home after finished feeding the frys. Well, never thought that my acquisition could cause such a big hoo-haa and I would like to clear up the air and hope that all parties would show some restrains and settle down. Please take note that the whole World can see us and so let us discuss the issues in a more mature way.

First of all, Kwek Leong to me, is like a Godfather of killifish in Singapore. He is the pioneer. Im not giving him a high hat to wear just because he is supportive of my move but simply because I respect him, and Im sure all of us here do. Without KL, there will be no killies.com, there will be no gathering, no erect moss, and none of us would be here today in this forum discussing about our favourite killifish.

Secondly, if there is anyone who is really disappointed, I would like to sincerely apologise for any disappointment I had caused. However, I am puzzled as of why isnt there a hobbyist, if hes really disappointed, to fire the first shot, but instead it was the Seller. If a new hobbyist is serious and know a little about Fp. Gardneri Nsukka, why didnt he/she give it a try at the auction? Did my appearance somehow showed that Im filthy rich(absolutely opposite actually)? Or is it that nobody knew much about this specie or its not worth more than stated, or simply just join in to put up their hands? I had tried my best to be as sensitive as possible and cause as minimal problem to everybody but alas, theres no way to please everyone. But I am proud to say that if I had walked in as a pure commercial buyer and insensitive, you can be assured that there will be no chance at all for other hobbyists to bring home a single fish/fry/egg. 

I would like to take this opportunity to inform those hobbyists who missed the chance of owning the fishes due to my purchase, please drop me an email and Ill give you a trio when Im fully operational next year. One keen hobbyist that I know is Felix who was not able to get hold of the NSukka pair & Lagos frys. Felix, Ill give you a trio of each when Im ready so as to compensate for the disappointment that Ive caused. And Lily, I will not forget what Ive promised you also during the auction. For those newcomers, I could only sell them rather than give away, because anything that is possessed easily, it will not be treasured as much as those which are hard to obtain.

I clearly remembered about 3 years ago, I saw this elegant fish, swimming magnificently across Sam Yicks 10ft(or 12?) long tank at Pet Safari. And when it paused once in a while, the Dorsal & Anal fins would stand up like a raising a flag and the Caudal fin would spread out wide, displaying all its might by its color. I was completely mesmerized and Ive never seen such a small unique and beautiful fish. This is none other the Aphyosemion Australe spotted orange. The price then was $25 each when it was first introduced. I decided to buy 6 of them but was gone when I returned a week later. That is when I started sourcing around via Internet, first I wrote to Bill Shenefelt and he directed me to KL. To me, the beauty of this fish is the only freshwater fish that is comparable to the marine fishes. Not even the majestic arrowana or discus can match the vast varied color combination of killifish. That is how much I value and appreciate killifish. Up to date, there are still new species being discovered and this is amazing to me. 

I myself know what its like to have a shoe-string budget when schooling, having only $0.30 cts while others got $1. And when I finally got $1 everyday, the others have $15 a week. I dont come from a well-to-do family and I know what its like being a schoolboy with budget. That is why I agreed willingly to let the schoolboy have a pair because I can see that he is really serious about Nsukka and will treasure it. I even let the schoolboy choose the best pair out of the 5 pairs. I even helped him to choose a better and more mature female so that he can also enjoy the joy of seeing the development of a fry from an egg sooner. From my position, I would say that the more the merrier. But had the other two keen hobbyists make the effort to attend the auction, I would have considered letting go. To be frank, the 4 pairs that I bought are hardly sufficient to meet my targeted production rate. I would still need to and have been bringing in from overseas sources. I totally agree with Jian Yang about the in-breeding problem and in my position, I definitely have to do that so as to ensure the survivability of the specie, which is why Im also sourcing locally.

If Im the seller, I would be very happy that if someone, be it hobbyist or commercial buyer, is willing to pay at my requested price or even to the extend of an auction for all of my fishes. That would show how valued(not in $ & cents but rather the beauty and characteristics) that particular fishes are. 

I had actually intended to approach veteran hobbyists like Ronnie, Sia Meng, Au SL & Lily besides Kwek Leong for assistance, but I do not know you guys well and also for fear of the unknown reactions I would get. Would it be supportive or negative when I let the cat out of the bag? One great fear is that the whole closely knitted killifish local community might just slam a no-sale-to-Darren-Lum edict. Maybe Sia Meng is right, I could have made private arrangement but I do hope to gain some understanding that there are a lot more other considerations and fear/risk factors involved which are not possible to disclose here.

I have my principles in this biz that Im doing and Im not just simply a commercial breeder, no matter what Im still a hobbyist at heart. It is with this passion that challenges me to popularise and create an awareness to the public of killifishs existence and to educate, especially the LFS, the characteristics of killifish and clear the misconception that they are like bettas. It is saddening to me to realise that there is not one single killifish displayed at the recent Aquarama 2003. What are we going to do about it? It is disappointing to learn that most LFS dont even know what is killifish. It is saddening and infuriating to see the way LFS displayed the killifishes for sale, one LFS even displayed in sealed plastic bags for weeks!!, two LFS displayed them like bettas in small little containers which all perish within a week. Dont you all think that this is even much more disappointing and sad? And what are we going to do about it?

I hope that with my clarification and open apology, things would settle down and progress constructive like what Freddy has calmly and maturely put it. Thank you for reading my extremely long post.

Cheers!  :Very Happy:  
Darren Lum

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## timebomb

> First of all, Kwek Leong to me, is like a Godfather of killifish in Singapore. He is the pioneer.


I like to clarify that in terms of being the pioneer, I think Ronnie is the one. When I started on killies, I already knew Ronnie from way back but neither of us knew the other was interested in killies. Kean Huat who lives in the US of A offered to give me some eggs and he asked me in one of his emails if I know Ronnie. That's how I found out that Ronnie was already hatching killifish eggs. We met and I discovered that Ronnie already has the Fp gardneri N'sukka, Baissa and SJO. Ronnie didn't like annuals then because he thought they have very short lives.

I built the web site killies.com but without the help of many people, including Ronnie, I would never have done it. Without Ronnie's help too, I would never have started this forum.

If there's anyone who really deserves a lot of credit for starting a killifish scene here, he's Ronnie Lee. I hate to say this but the bugger is also one of the most generous guys I know. If you don't know this too, Ronnie is the first person to bring in the vinegar eels, microworm and grindal worm cultures. If anyone's a pioneer, it's him. I wish there was something bad I can say about Ronnie but other than the fact that he still owes me $15 for refilling his gas tank, I can't think of anything else  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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## RonWill

> I like to clarify that in terms of being the pioneer, I think Ronnie is the one.


Kwek Leong, that's a load of compliments that I can slowly digest, but it's more credit than I deserve. Still, thanks for making my night at work a little brighter.

It's one thing to be in the scene early but it's quite another for making it a reality. I'm just happy to be a part of it.

It too, won't be what it is today, if not for the contributions from fellow forumers for making this a lively and friendly place, and for that, I thank you all.

For the lurkers, I know there are some very serious breeder here who are absorbing the information that's so freely given. I know too, that some are even more experienced than I am in fishkeeping and I beckon to these lurkers to participate and share your experience with us.

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## RonWill

Darren, first off, my sincere thanks for allowing me to leave the gathering with the _Aphyosemion primigenium_ Kanda, without feeling like a broken wallet. It's a very nice fish and I'll distribute it around, if and when the opportunity allows.




> I had actually intended to approach veteran hobbyists like Ronnie, Sia Meng, Au SL & Lily besides Kwek Leong for assistance, but I do not know you guys well and also for fear of the unknown reactions I would get. Would it be supportive or negative when I let the cat out of the bag? One great fear is that the whole closely knitted killifish local community might just slam a no-sale-to-Darren-Lum edict.


One of the mottos that I try to live by is, "What I don't know, I learn. What I can't do, I try.".

Darren, I believe all this suspicion and alledged negativity basically stems from the fact that you've hardly communicated much with us.

If we know where you're coming from, I know the whole scene would have been different. I've discussed this with Kwek Leong and he proposed for us to meet. I too would like to see how we can compliment our individual efforts and contributions into the bigger scheme of things.

If we can achieve this, then everyone benefit. What say you?

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## darrenlum

Hi Ronnie,

It's my pleasure and I wish you all the good luck with the Aphyosemion primigenium Kanda.

It's not so bad like suspicion and alledged negativity. Well, if you look at it from a business point of view, you just can't take the chance to rule out any possibilities and you have to take all round precaution. Each step that you advance, you'll have to analyse and think of what are the possible consequences and how to avoid or mitigate if that possible scenario really did happen. One wrong move and you'll have to start all over again. I hope you can understand my difficulty. But now that I can see the positiveness from you guys, I'm much more relieved. At least I still have a chance to acquire from local sources.

I'm all for it for us to meet up to further discuss. I'll leave it to KL to set the time and date. Thanks again.

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## gweesm1

Hi all,

I am back! I had a long conversation with Ronnie last night, a few issue were addressed. Frankly I was never angry with Loh or of any sort. This thread has gone far too long and I am getting lazy to read. I stop after what Lily had post about her views.

Ronnie, I will think about disposing my spare fish to LFS. My friend have been pestering me to, thus I might talk to him this weekend and work out something.

Stormhawk




> on a personal note, i remembered asking Sia Meng what he feeds his killies at home because i was planning to get the Simp. auratus and his answer was, IIRC - "all killies eat the same things". thats not very helpful to me. dietary needs may differ between killie species and by knowing the diet of the killies from the breeder himself, i, as a buyer will know what to feed them without having to worry about them starving due to the lack of the correct foods.


Emm perhaps let me explain why such a statement came from me at the first place. By looking at the post you had written before our gathering, I had mislead you as someone who have experience with killifish and perceive you as someone who was very well read and inform. You had been answering questions and giving advises to beginners. 

Thus when you asked me that question, I was really shock. I thought you were only joking, and also thought that you will understand what I am trying to tell you when I mentioned, all killies eat the same thing. Now that I know that you do not really have experience with killies, I will use a different approach.

Let me share with you, you must be used to this statement as you might get this from experience breeders from oversea when they advised you on incubation period. Due to the differences in climate, some breeders will not advise when the recipients when they should wet their eggs. When I wrote to them, some will tell me it is the same as RAC or same as nothos Thus when I said it is the same, it means that whatever you have been feeding to you killies applies here. You should know by now except for dry food, all killies have almost the same diet.




> he did mention that some people kept viewing the fish several times and he thinks the fish got pretty stressed. well for starters, take a look at any LFS and u can see people gawking at fish tanks before they start taking a net and catching the fish. everyone will look for the best looking fish and if it entails the viewing of the containers or tanks several times, then they'll do it, even if the fish get stressed


My friend, people can be mislead with what you post here if they did not read the actual post. I am trying to explain to Felix why his AUS could have died and not complaining.

To all,
I will continue to stay in the forum, but I am afraid I might not be as regular as what I used to be. It is not because of this incident by due to my current commitments and workload. I have too many things to do. One of which will be launching of a website. Au has a equal share in this website. (we shared the web hosting fees)

What you will be expecting:-
Goals and mission statements
A page on how we got start, our goal and mission.

Articles
As you guys know I have been experimenting on various types of spawning methods, raising method and incubating methods, and I would like to pen it down with photographs. Thus I will be spending time taking photographs and writing articles for our website. Au will have a writeup on counting eggs. Thus you can say whatever you will be seeing our website will be of our experience.

Events
We will also have a page on the events that we will be organizing, be it with killies.com or ourselves.

Photos
Any killifish website cant be complete without this!

Fish and eggs list
This too!! Au and I will combine our fishlist as 1.

Thats all for the moment.

*other commitment*
My work, final year dissertation, my new tissue culture hobby and more!

regards

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## turaco

Sia Meng,

Good to hear from you again. Whatever our principle or belief, it's the same passion that bind us together, local or abroad. May we continue to learn from each other this little jewel of the earth- killifish. 

Look forward to the new website :wink: .

Gan.

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