# Killies Import > Non-Killie Segment >  OFF-TOPIC: survey for school project.

## kennedy_ng

Hi everyone, I am Kennedy Ng from Raffles Institution. We are doing an experimental project and we hope sincerely that you would take some time off your busy schedule to complete this survey. Thank you very much. Moderators, I hope you would allow this, but if you don't then please don't hesitate to remove it.


Survey target: For users and people who have heard of the Ketapang/Indian Almond Leaf only

Hi, we are Teo Xuan Lang, Elton Yeo, Kennedy Ng and Aaron Teoh from class 2H of Raffles Institution and we are doing a project on the Effect of Ketapang leaves on Freshwater Fishes. We are now conducting a survey for users of the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf or people who have heard of it. We really hope that youll participate.


1. Have you heard of the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf before?
Yes/No

2. Have you used the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf before?
Yes/No

3. Even if you have or have not used it, do you think its effective on all freshwater fishes. If no, why does it not affect all freshwater fishes and only a specific group. 
Yes/No

4. How much do you know about it?
a) To a large extent
b) Average
c) To a small extent

5. Do you know the scientific reason behind its effectiveness?
Yes/No

6. Do you think the leaf has good effects on the following fishes?
a) Livebearers (we are using swordtails in our experiment)	Yes/No/Dont know
b) Betta Splendens Yes/No/Dont know
c) Apistogramma apistogramma agassizi 'super red' Yes/No/Dont know
d) Tetra (we are using the serpae tetra) Yes/No/Dont know



Thank you for participating in our survey!
If there are any inquiries, please contact us at [email protected].

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## stormhawk

Here's my answers.

1) Yes, I've heard of the _ketapang_ leaf before.

2) Yes, I've used it before.

3) (This is a pretty ambiguous question. Kennedy, I think you should rephrase it in other ways.) My question to you would be, _effective_ in what sense? _Ketapang_ leaves don't work for ALL freshwater fishes.. (think African Rift Lake cichlids.. get it?)

4) To a large extent.

5) Yes, I do know the reason.

6) a) No.
b) Yes.
c) Yes.
d) Yes.

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## kennedy_ng

Thanks for your opinions, i edited it already.

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## Nonn

1. yes
2. yes
3. no, somefish just don't like what ketapang do to the water (like the Betta simplex from lime stone stream. 
4. b)
5. Yes
6. a) no b) yes c) yes d) yes

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## timebomb

> Moderators, I hope you would allow this, but if you don't then please don't hesitate to remove it.


Kennedy, 

There's absolutely no reason why the moderators here would want to remove your post. You wrote in good English and you and your friends were sincere enough to reveal your names. I believe most of the forum members here would be glad to fill out your survey form. By the way, I think you should also ask those who are filling the form to indicate the country they are from. Hobbyists living in other countries would have a different take on Ketapang leaves. As far as I know, the Ketapang Tree is found only in the tropics. 

Here are my answers:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No because the environments which fish live in differs from species to species.
4. b.
5. I think it is because the Ketapang Leaves acidify the water. Also, it makes the water murkier which simulate the natural habitats of certain fish.
6. a) No
b) Yes
c) Don't know
d) No

Loh K L

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## RonWill

Kennedy, I see nothing that's out of line. School projects are a good thing, especially 'fishy' ones, so here's my 2cents worth and good luck in compiling the results.

1. Yes
2. Yes (and also in combination with Peat tea)
3. Yes (but guppies and mollies don't seem to like it. Could be that water became too acidic)
4. c) To a small extent 
5. No 
6.
a) Livebearers - No
b) Betta Splendens - Yes
c) Apistogramma - Don’t know 
d) Tetra - Yes

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## imported_lily

Hi Kennedy Ng & gang from class 2H of Raffles Institution,

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) I don't know how the Ketapang affect the water but I will use it when my fishes are uncomfortable after a change of water.
4) C
5) No, but I guess ketapang leave are used to bring down the ph level in the water.
6) A  D Dont know

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## zmzfam

Kennedy,

here's my reply :

1) Yes,
2) No
3) No, the freshwater fishes varies from softwater fishes to hardwater fishes. The effect of the ketapang leaves is to soften the water.
4) b)
5) No
6) a) No
b) Yes
c) Yes
d) Yes

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## hwchoy

1. Have you heard of the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf before?
Yes

2. Have you used the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf before?
Yes

3. Even if you have or have not used it, do you think its effective on all freshwater fishes. If no, why does it not affect all freshwater fishes and only a specific group.
No. It creates a soft acidic condition prevalent in rainforest streams, also known as blackwater streams (not really black but brown, and it is clear not murky). Some fishes lives in alkaline condition e.g. water fed from limesone formation and these do not like soft acidic conditions.

4. How much do you know about it?
a) To a large extent

5. Do you know the scientific reason behind its effectiveness?
Yes (to be verified scientifically), the humic acid and other "natural goodness" simulates the natural water conditions found in streams that are covered by rainforest canopies, which has a thick leaf litter from the canopy above.

6. Do you think the leaf has good effects on the following fishes?
a) Livebearers (we are using swordtails in our experiment)	
No (but swordtails are bred on farms and may not be a good experimental subject as they are conditioned to farm water)

b) Betta Splendens 
Yes
c) Apistogramma apistogramma agassizi 'super red' 
Yes - I think so
d) Tetra (we are using the serpae tetra)
Yes - most tetra comes from South American blackwater systems

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## felixe

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No - same as others 
4. b) organic acid + some doubtful herbal effect...
5. Yes
6. a) Dont know 
b) Yes
c) Yes
d) Yes

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## A.Rashid

1. Have you heard of the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf before? 
Yes 

2. Have you used the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf before? 
Yes

3. Even if you have or have not used it, do you think its effective on all freshwater fishes. If no, why does it not affect all freshwater fishes and only a specific group. 
This I am not so sure because ketapang leaves not only used to soften the water but its also use as a medicinal purposes. I have not use them on all freshwater fishes since all of the fish I rear are acidic based. Perhaps an experiment could be done if it were to be used on alkaline based fishes not to soften the water but as a medicinal remedy for sick or diseased sticken fishes.

4. How much do you know about it? 
a) To a large extent 

5. Do you know the scientific reason behind its effectiveness? 
Yes. My answer will be the same as others.

6. Do you think the leaf has good effects on the following fishes? 
my answer to all a,b,c,d will be yes since ketapang leaves to me is used as medicinal purposes.

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## MrTree

1) Yes 
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Average
5) Not really. (I wonder any scientist did a research on it?)
6) Yes for all.

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## Debbbear

1.yes
2.yes
3 no, some fish do not like the acid in the leaves.
4 b
5 yes
6 a) Livebearers.. if you have very soft water, then no
b) Betta Splendens.. don't know
c) Apistogramma apistogramma agassizi 'super red'.. don't know
d) Tetra ..the tetras that I have black shirt,neon,bleeding heart,serpae ... yes

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## kennedy_ng

Thanks to all who have helped in our survey! We have come out with our results: the ketapang leaves benefit the bettas, apistos and tetras in terms of breeding, health conditions, colours, etc. As for the swordtails, they have not been affected much as most know because it lives in hard water, while the leaves release folic acid to bring down the pH of the water. But the leaves have proven to be useful to these fish in a sense that they provide an alternate source of food and shelter.

Yep, that's it! Thanks a lot once again!  :Very Happy:

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## ruyle

The leaves might lend a further benefit (like peat) by being a mild anti-bacterial/antifungal agent. This would directly help the eggs and yield
higher hatchrates. This of course, wouldn't affect the hatchrates of livebearers.....I'm kidding  :Laughing:  

Bill

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## RonWill

Dear all, for those who've chipped in their observations and comments to guide our young friends, I thank you. The time and effort you've spent in nuturing will make them wiser hobbyists in days to come (I hope :wink: ).

I received an email from Kennedy but unfortunately am not IT-versed to help. Kho, can you please check and see if it's possible to upload a PDF file either off-site or temporarily in our server?




> _Hi Ronnie,
> This is our completed project. As it is our first time, we felt that it would have something missing.
> 
> I hope you will be able to read it and tell us what are your thoughts. Zulkifli was interested in reading it too. He proposed to upload it to some sites and to share with the forum.
> 
> What do you think about this? Btw, do you know of any websites where we can upload our report to?
> 
> Regards,
> Kennedy Ng_


One comment about the attachment, "Report for RE(reseach education).pdf", I suspect, is completed with the latest Acrobat version. In systems with older Acrobat Reader, the page might just be full of pokka-dots instead of text. [yup... don't ask  :Opps:  ]

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## hobbit6003

Hi Kennedy and Gang,

Here's my input:




1. Have you heard of the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf before? 

Yes

2. Have you used the Ketapang/Indian Almond leaf before? 

No 

3. Even if you have or have not used it, do you think its effective on all freshwater fishes. If no, why does it not affect all freshwater fishes and only a specific group. 

No: To answer this, you'd have to look at the primary reason that people use ketapang leaves for, which is to lower the pH and soften the water, through the leaching of the organic acids the leaves contain.

Thus, not all fishes prefer to live in soft acidic water.

4. How much do you know about it? 

Average

5. Do you know the scientific reason behind its effectiveness? 

Not going to be a straight forward answer, as it is still more of a 'traditional' practice, and the evidence is more anecdoctal than scientific.

The only thing 'scientific' about it, is that it softens the water and to a certain extent, lowers the pH.

Another thing is, many also believe that they contain substances that has anti-microbial properties, though not scientifically proven.

6. Do you think the leaf has good effects on the following fishes? 

a) Livebearers (we are using swordtails in our experiment) '

Dont know 

b) Betta Splendens 

Yes

c) Apistogramma apistogramma agassizi 'super red' 

Yes

d) Tetra (we are using the serpae tetra) 

Yes

Cheers,

Kenny Poh

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## hobbit6003

Oops, damn, I'm late!

Sorry guys, I didn't notice that the project had been completed.  :Sad:  

My anecdotal finding : that sinusitis does cause cerebral conjestion....  :Sad:  


Kenny

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## RonWill

> Oops, damn, I'm late!
> 
> Sorry guys, I didn't notice that the project had been completed.


Kenny, when I receive those 'Round Tuits', remind me to send one your way  :Laughing:  Seriously, I'm sure the boys still appreciate your feedback. It's the thought and sharing that counts.

Kennedy, I suggest you PM Kho ('Shortman') and make arrangement for the PDF upload.

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## Piscesgirl

Oh! I'm too late! I LOVE Indian Almond leaves and I am fully convinced of their value. I've also read studies in which it is being considered/tested for Sickle Cell disease in humans as well as liver ailments. I do not find it only used for acidifying the water. In my humble experience, I've used it in my shrimp tank (Crystal Red Bee Shrimp) and my shrimp became "with eggs" within several days of being introduced to the Ketapang water. I started by using the Ketapeat by Marc Weiss to soften my water, which was made unnaturally harder temporarily by the use of a plant substrate. Once I was convinced of it's benefit, I purchased two boxes of 50 "tea bags" (Indian Almond leaves made into tea bags for convenience). Although I only use one bag now for my 29 gallon shrimp tank every few water changes, not the one per ten gallon suggestion. I also every once in awhile use it for my 55 gallon community tank. I am absolutely convinced of it's usefulness for fertility and vitality of fish and shrimp.

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## RonWill

Deborah, it's never too late to share.

I think I've not extend you the welcome to the forum but can see you having fun here and it's great to have you as part of our cyber 'family'.

That said, most of the regulars here will know me as 'absolute idiot' when it comes to recognising a Ketapang tree and having to rely on them for 'leaf donations'.  :Opps:  

Blessed am I that '*Someone up there*' loves me and had gotten the local council to plant 5 such trees behind my residential block. Yea, even though these are young trees, I *now* know what they look like! [did I say that the fallen leaves are free for the picking?]

I've been using a fair bit of these and what I collect (before the sweeper tidy the area) is more than I can use, so drop me an email if you need any.

Off-topic: I resided in 2 of 5 NYC's borough and visited the Bronx a fair bit, which in the early '80s, was a pretty rough neighbourhood! Some of my friends from Queens moved over to North Carolina in the '90s... if only their address had survived the great PC Crash  :Crying:

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## shortman

Sorry guys,

Was busy with some others setup for myself in the net.

Yes it possible to upload pdf here just email me I will put it up immediately.

Best Regards

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## Piscesgirl

Hello RonWill -- thank you for the kind offer and welcome! I was sort of lucky when I lived in the Bronx -- I lived in the north end, in the more "Italian" area (Morris Park Avenue). I walked to work -- which was an incredibly great convenience especially in bad weather (here in NC I have to take my vacation days in bad weather plus our power always goes out). Still, I was most often quite frightened walking in the late afternoon. Always felt I had to be on my toes! It's much safer here, but not as safe as one would think living in the "country." 

What a shame you lost the info of your friends in NC  :Sad:  I wonder if you can do a Google search and find them?

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## hobbit6003

> Oh! I'm too late! I LOVE Indian Almond leaves and I am fully convinced of their value. I've also read studies in which it is being considered/tested for Sickle Cell disease in humans as well as liver ailments. I do not find it only used for acidifying the water. In my humble experience, I've used it in my shrimp tank (Crystal Red Bee Shrimp) and my shrimp became "with eggs" within several days of being introduced to the Ketapang water. I started by using the Ketapeat by Marc Weiss to soften my water, which was made unnaturally harder temporarily by the use of a plant substrate. Once I was convinced of it's benefit, I purchased two boxes of 50 "tea bags" (Indian Almond leaves made into tea bags for convenience). Although I only use one bag now for my 29 gallon shrimp tank every few water changes, not the one per ten gallon suggestion. I also every once in awhile use it for my 55 gallon community tank. I am absolutely convinced of it's usefulness for fertility and vitality of fish and shrimp.


Hi Piscesgirl,

About sickle cell anaemia, usually folic acid is required in great amount as a supplement, in order to increase the production of normal haemoglogin cells, so to speak.

The ketapang leaves are supposed to contain a good amount of folic acids, besides other organic acids. So, I'm not surprised if researchers try to use it to treat blood related disorders.

Cheers,

Kenny

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## Piscesgirl

Thank you for that education, Kenny. Isn't it interesting how we still continue to turn back to plants for medicinal value even though the medical community continues to discredit such things as "herbal" medicine? (not saying herbal medicine is good or bad, just making an observation).

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## hobbit6003

Hi Deborah,

Well, the medical fraternity did not understand how these herbs was supposed to be of medicinal value, and they were sceptical in the first place.

Modern medicine is more of evidence based, whereby scientific proof has to be obtained before the drug is proclaimed to have any therapeutic effect.

However, many traditional herbal medication is basically anecdotal, where many scientific evidence was lacking.

Not anymore, as now scientists all over the world are looking into these herbs, and as they conduct more researches to understand the pharmacokinetics of the substance found in them, more traditional herbs would be advocated in modern medical treatment.

In fact in Singapore, our local university has a department set up, conducting researches on the medicinal values of many Traditional Chinese Medicine, or TCM in short.

Cheers,

Kenny

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## shortman

Received the PDF file from kennedy and uploaded the report in PDF format to the forum and it is available in this url 
http://www.killies.com/ReportforRE.pdf


WOW, very well done report.  :Cool:  

Best Regards

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## kennedy_ng

Kho, thank you for helping me upload the file. Thank you to everyonel who responded to the survey. Feel free to give any comments, we will work on what needs to be improved.

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## timebomb

You and your school mates did a good job with the report, Kennedy. I'm sure your teacher must be proud of you all. You're young but one day, you will be the old guy with all the answers  :Laughing: . 

Loh K L

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## hobbit6003

Oh mine,

Is that the standard of an average secondary school student? Wow, then I must start gearing my son up for school projects already, since he's already 3.5 yrs old!

Well done guys, it is a good start no doubt. Let me go through the papers this weekend and give you my thoughts on your experiment design and methodology. I wish I can give each and every of you a pat on the back.

As for now, I've already given a subject for my son to work on, it is titled " The Effects of Fluoridation on the Scales formation on the Asian Aowanas"!  :Very Happy:  

Cheers,

Kenny

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## Piscesgirl

Wow, that's a big report! heh...I'm at work and I printed it out not realizing it was 88 pages  :Laughing:

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## timebomb

> As for now, I've already given a subject for my son to work on, it is titled " The Effects of Fluoridation on the Scales formation on the Asian Aowanas"!


Now you know what's being pressured feels like? Geez, if I were your kid, Kenny, I'll murder your Aworana  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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