# Killies Import > Planted Tanks >  Suggestions on a new setup

## dageti

Dear all,

I'm going to redo my 80 lt tank completely and I've decided on something simpler and nicer to look at than the present muddy, messy tangle of oversized plants. *Guidelines* are: low maintenance, lots of swimming space, stylized layout, no more dirt from rotting plants and _lots_ of mosses.

*Bottom* material is Dennerle black quartz, possibly sprinkled with whitish sand on the foreground. *Lighting* is 4x15W neon lamps, probably 2 10000K, 1 950, 1 865. *Fertilization*, CO2 and the occasional Dupla drops. *Population*, a shoal of _Boraras maculatus_ or _brigittae_ and/or _Pseudomugil gertrudae_. Possibly cherry shrimps and Otos.

Here's a picture of the *driftwood* I bought, which I'm told is ADA Red Moorwood. Price is consistent (gosh), can anyone confirm?. The picture lacks depth and detail but the wood truly looks amazing.



A _very_ tentative photoshop *sketch* of what it should look like, once placed in the tank and with mosses and ferns tied onto it. Crappy I know (I'm so bad with PS) and the layout needs a lot of improving. It's very unbalanced, but I needed to visualize. I cannot emphasize how much I need advice on how to arrange all the elements so that the whole thing looks natural.



The wood would 'spring' from the middle of the tank, the bottom gently sloping toward the foreground and the sides. Moss growing on the branches (with Java Fern or _Bolbitis_) and creeping from the base in all directions. 

*Background*: it's not in the sketch, but I need long stem plants for the 'curtain' effect and to hide the plastic parts, but nothing bushy (read: messy). I was thinking of using _Eleocharis vivipara_ or _Vallisneria_. I want a dark blue background but no ADA Aqua Screen: plain old cardboard will do.

*Middle*: rocks at the base of the wood, emerging from the bottom. I'd like to use 3 ADA Seiryu stones, they're easily found, nice and relatively inexpensive. Mosses filling the gaps. Hairgrass growing closely around the wood in spots.

*Foreground* : I don't know whether to leave it bare, let the mosses creep onto it or what. What I know is I lack the necessary skill and patience for something like a glosso lawn.

What do you guys think? I hope this was not too long-winded and annoying. I don't expect others to the the hard job for me, but I'd love to get a hand from the people who make this such an amazing planted tanks section. Everything from kind suggestions to harsh criticism is welcome! Thanks a lot everyone,

Francesco

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## timebomb

Hi, Francesco,

A couple of suggestions:-

If you want low maintenance, do not plant _Vallisneria_or _Eleocharis_. I would suggest _Crypt balansae_ or _Crypt retrospiralis_. I think you should go for a black background. Blue makes a good contrast but it looks artificial. I don't know what are Seiryu stones but they may not go well with the driftwood you're going to use. The colours clash. I would suggest something brown would be a better option. 

By the way, Amano don't usually tie his mosses to the whole of the branches of the driftwoods that he uses. He recommends that the mosses are tied only at the bends. This way, the mosses stand out better. I think he's right. I often tie my mosses to the whole branch and they eventually cover the driftwoods completely, thereby making it pointless having the driftwood in the first place. After all, the whole idea is to be able to see the wood with the moss growing on it and not a piece of wood hidden under a blanket of moss.

I would suggest too you think about using cosmetic sand in the foreground. This serves 2 purposes. One, you don't have to crack your head over which foreground plant to use because with cosmetic sand, it's going to be a bare foreground. Two, because cosmetic sand is so smooth, there's no dirt. Or rather, the dirt cannot stick to the sand. There will be a lot of scum and dirt in the spaces between the rocks and woods but your foreground will always be pristine.

Loh K L

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## dageti

Dear Kwek Leong, 
thanks very much for your comments and suggestions, I much appreciate it.




> If you want low maintenance, do not plant _Vallisneria_or _Eleocharis_. I would suggest _Crypt balansae_ or _Crypt retrospiralis_.


They're both lovely and I considered using them but I'm not sure. They've got narrow leaves but they're still rosette plants technically speaking, and will spread out a little I guess. Do you think they would look 'vertical' enough?




> I think you should go for a black background. Blue makes a good contrast but it looks artificial.


You're probably right. I'll keep the black cardboard I have and buy some blue, try both, take some pics and see which looks nicer. Blue was my first idea because it would make the orange-brownish _Boraras_ stand out best.




> I don't know what are Seiryu stones but they may not go well with the driftwood you're going to use. The colours clash. I would suggest something brown would be a better option.


Seiryu stones are several shades of dark grey and have a rough texture. You can see them in countless aquascape pics on the web. Here are a pic from the ADA catalogue and how they can look in a tank:





They look darker once placed in the water, and so does the red moorwood, mosses and plants should help harmonize colours, so I'm hoping they won't clash. If they do, I'll go for something brown if I find something equally nice and inexpensive, or just do without the rocks  :Very Happy: 




> By the way, Amano don't usually tie his mosses to the whole of the branches of the driftwoods that he uses. He recommends that the mosses are tied only at the bends. This way, the mosses stand out better. I think he's right.


This is interesting. The branches of my driftwood are all twisted and knotty so it's going to be interesting to decide where, and _when_ to tie the moss. By when I mean this: is it better to place the driftwood in the tank, decide on its final arrangement and then proceed to tie the mosses accordingly, or tie them first and then put it in the tank?




> I would suggest too you think about using cosmetic sand in the foreground. [...] There will be a lot of scum and dirt in the spaces between the rocks and woods but your foreground will always be pristine


Yes, I loved the setup you did using cosmetic sand in the foreground. I want to show you something that I'd done a few months earlier (copied from an article in an Italian magazine):



It looked promsing but I made a _huge_ mistake and planted the _Vallisneria_ in the foreground. A few weeks later it had grown and crept all over the front, disrupting the sand layer and building up lots of dirt (using endlers as population didn't help). So much for my pristine white beach. After I tore down the tank I reused the sand several times and it's gonna be really hard work washing it clean. If I were to use it in the foreground of the new setup, it would have to stay, because it would be impossible to sieve it from the black quartz.  :Rolling Eyes:  

francesco

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## FC

> *Foreground* : I don't know whether to leave it bare, let the mosses creep onto it or what. What I know is I lack the necessary skill and patience for something like a glosso lawn.


Try this Elatine Triandra, easy to grow and best of all, it is the real carpet plant that stay real low.

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## timebomb

Francesco,

Crypts don't grow as "vertical" as Vallisneria but they grow far more slowly. My suggestion was based on your guidelines, in that, the former is far more "low-maintenance" than the latter. Vals produce runners within a matter of days compared to Crypts which can take months to throw out a runner, if they throw out one at all, that is.

Good luck.

Loh K L

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## dageti

> Try this Elatine Triandra, easy to grow and best of all, it is the real carpet plant that stay real low.


Freddy, Italian aquarists have become aware of _Elatine triandra_ only very recently, and little is known about its needs here. It would make for an interesting choice as it's very lovely looking. Thank you for pointing it out to me, I'll do more research on it.




> Crypts don't grow as "vertical" as Vallisneria but they grow far more slowly. My suggestion was based on your guidelines, in that, the former is far more "low-maintenance" than the latter.


Kwek Leong, you've made a very good point. Vals are so stoloniferous they would probably take half the tank over in no time, just as they did in my other tank. I'll start looking for some healthy _balansae_ (which is no mean feat if you're in Italy). Once again, thank you.

Of course I welcome further comments and suggestions by all other users,

Francesco

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## FC

> *Guidelines*lots of swimming space, stylized layout, no more dirt from rotting plants and _lots_ of mosses.


I like space, may be it is because I live in a small country. One way to provide lots of space to swim is to keep the decoratives low profile and in the centre of the tank, similar to the above tank pciture you shared. Such technique maximised space illusion by making full use of the tank's visible space; all decoratives do not lean or block any parts of the tank's sizes (top, siide, front and back). The effect is best have with crystal clear water.

There are few plants and decoratives options:
Mosses only
- Use one species mosses for the complete ground
- Place just Seiryu rocks in the middle. Use one or two big ones as focal point and the rest small ones. Shape them like a mountain range or an animal.
- Or place branchy wood with thin branches in the middle. You may tie mosses to 5% of the branches. Leave it bare if the branches are interesting to look at.

It looks something like this but smaller/thinner branches would be better:


You may simply insert the mosses into the gravel like this to form moss ground:


Elatine Triandra
- You may use it as ground plant.
- Seiryu rocks would be good centre deco.
- Consider small red/orange plants to give a little contrast.

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## dageti

Freddy,
thanks for your suggestions. I'll place the driftwood in the middle of the tank, it will fill the whole tank while still leaving a lot of space because its branches are long and thin. The easiest way to go would probably be mosses only: the tank picture you posted is truly stunning (I'd seen it before). 

I still haven't decided whether or not I'm going to use the Seiryu rocks; I wanted to add more interesting elements, and I was thiking that different sized rocks placed unobtrusively around the base of the wood wouldn't be too much of a clash, but if it must be _either_ the wood _or_ the rocks, I'm definitely going for the wood.

I was thinking of tying the moss at the base of the driftwoods and let it creep freely on the ground, leave the mid section of the branches (which is the more interesting part to look at) bare and then tie more moss on the tip of the branches, to get a tree-like effect once the moss has grown thick on the tips. But I'm afraid this look must be rather hard to achieve.

Red and orange plants are lovely to look but also very demanding in my experience (iron, light, etc) and my attempts at growing them in low maintenance tanks have been unsuccessful so far. Some aquascapers also say they provide _too_ strong a contrast and that one should only blend different shades of green, but this of course is entirely a matter of taste.

Francesco

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## dageti

Dear all,

it's been a while but I finally made it. This is an update on my new tank (not a great pic), now the home of 15 Celestial Pearl Danio's.



It's a messy affair, water is still cloudy, I'd just finished tying the moss on the branches when the pic was taken. It's basically tons of Java (or what goes by that name in stores), with some Spiky on the left and Christmas on the branches. I hope it can develop nicely, and I'd like to get some advice and suggestions as I'm sure there's a lot to improve in there. I need to hide the plastic parts somehow and to give the mosses a better shape. Thanks again everyone,

Francesco

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## timebomb

Hi, Francesco,

Long time no see  :Very Happy:  Hope all is well with you.

I took a look at your picture and this is what I suggest - What you have now are shapeless clumps of mosses. You have to tie the mosses closer to the wood. In fact, tie them down tight and trim off the excess. If conditions are right, the mosses will throw out new fronds and look a lot better.

Loh K L

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## imported_lampeye

It might also help to use MUCH less moss on the upper parts of the wood. If he uses that much, it could radically overgrow the wood once it gets going.

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## Webster

Dear all,

My name is Chee Sing. I consider myself as "new" to planted tank althought I have been planting moss for the past 2 years.

My planted tank have never been successful ever since, mostly affected by green algae. I have followed those instruction advise by the aquarium store seller but still do not seem to work.

I have followed those instruction in the net on planting mosses but still failed, I hope to hear some advise from you guys.

My tank's current condition.
- 3 ft(length) x 1.5ft(width) x 1.5ft(height), about 40 gallon.
- 4 x T5 HO 39 watts light.
- a AC 200V fan that keeps the temperature at 26 degree Celsius.
- KH 6 (using Sera kh tester).
- PH 7 (using Sera PH tester).
- CO2 injection using CO2 cylinder tank with a ceramic diffusor of 2 bubbles per second.
- a canister CF-1200 and CF-600 as reactor to dissolve by CO2.
- dosage of Easy-life fertilizer once a week according to the fertilizer's specification.
- dosage of Seachem Flourish Excel once a week according to the specification.

I am planting some Taiwan Moss, a few rooted plant (I do not know the name for this plant) with 20 teras and a Red Lily. My tank have a timer to turn on the lights and CO2 for 8 hours a day.

I will appreciate if anyone can help me on my problems. A great thanks in advance.

Thanks
Regards

Chee Sing

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## timebomb

Chee Sing,

You should have started your own thread instead of using this one. Please keep that in mind the next time you want to bring up a question. 

As for your tank, please tell us what you mean by green algae? Did your water turn green? Or is it just green spots on the glass? If you don't know the identity of the algae, just try and describe its appearance.

If you are having a lot of algae problems, the first step would be to stop adding any more fertiliser to the water. 

I can't be sure but I think your problem is you do not have enough plants in the tank. For me, if I have a new setup, I will put a lot of stem plants into the tank. I don't actually root the stem plants. I simply let them float around in the water. Only when the tank has stabilised and the mosses are growing well, do I remove all the stem plants.

Loh K L

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## FC

My opinions:
1) The light is too much for your tank size and mosses. Try using 1~2 tubes of the T5.
2) Use separate time for CO2 and light. Turn on CO2 1/2 to 1 hr earlier than light. Turn off CO2 1 hr before the light off.
3) Feed the fish sparingly, once a day. Feed the amount where the fishes can finish in 3 minutes.

For quick cure, you may try a blackout for 3 days. After that, water change and thorough cleaning of the tank glass surfaces are needed.

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## dageti

> Hi, Francesco,
> 
> Long time no see  Hope all is well with you.


Dear Kwek Leong, I'm doing very well, thank you. I hope this will be a prosperous year for you too.




> What you have now are shapeless clumps of mosses.


You're quite right. I was going to trim most of the excess moss but I've observed a strange phenomenon, and I'd like to have your opinion. I haven't got any pics, sorry, so I'll try to describe it as clearly as possible.
All the moss in the tank except the Christmas (which is closely tied to the wood) has started to grow *erect* and to produce *rhizoids*. I mean that every single stem of the Spiky and 'Java' (what is sold under that name: I know this is is a sensitive topic) is growing vertically and slightly pale, with tiny brown root-like things that I'm sure are rhizoids. If they were algae they would appear randomly, but they're growing too regularly along the stems. The Christmas moss has also put out rhizoids but is growing normally, with bright green creeping fronds. I have flattened the erect moss manually, but it just kept growing vertically (looking now very odd and angular), and *very quickly*, for a tank with now CO2 and no fertilization.
Honestly I can't explain this. I've got 60w of light, and I've grown the same mosses in far darker conditions, and they never grew erect. The _Phyllanthus fluitans_ is growing crimson under the same light. The mosses in the upper part of the tank are just as vertical as the ones on the bottom. Besides, I have different neon lights for the background and the foreground, but the mosses are equally vertical in all parts of the tank.
So I'm ruling out the lighting (quantity and quality thereof) as factors.
At one point I suspected the mosses, might be actually looking for something to creep on, but then they're not clinging to the wood either.
Could it be some sort of chemical inbalance in the water? Do you know of any chemical conditions that triggers vertical growth and the production of rhizoids in aquatic mosses? Do mosses periodically go through stages like this? I am very ignorant about these things but to me it looks more like some sort of functional transformation/response than simple stunted growth. 
(I haven't touched the mosses and I'm reluctant to do so because fry have appeared, and their parents are voracious)
Thanks in advance to everyone!

Francesco

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## timebomb

You're sure they are rhizoids, Francesco? It could be they are sex organs, you know. Take a look at these 2 pictures. The first one shows rhizoids while the second one shows the sex organs.





I'm not sure what causes the mosses to grow differently at times but I've seen it happen in my tanks as well as in others. With Erect Moss (_Vesicularia reticulata_), I'm aware it can changed from a bushy growth into a very stringy one. I have no idea what causes this though. 

Loh K L

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## imported_stephan

Very intereting subject, Changes in forms of mosses, something I am trying to put a finger on too.

1) Francesco is seeing rhizoids and mosses are frowing erect (and probably stringy(?))
2) Loh KH seeing some types of mosses change from bushy to stringy form
3) I have semi terrestrial mosses that generally take up the same stringy form with smaller leaves, when submerged

Could all three be related?

Francesco is not using CO2 and nutrients. One function of rhizoids is nutrient uptake. More rhizoids may be an attempt to increase nutrient uptake.

The stringy form: The stringy form appears to be a reaction of semi terrestrial mosses to being submerged. Understandably being long and thin offers less resistance to moving water much like kelp. But it may also be a reaction to less CO2. Air has much more CO2 than water. A stringy form especially one that aims straight for the surface will help a submerged moss in two aspects. (1) it is aiming towards the surface where more CO2 should be available (2) it is aiming towards more light. (2) may be the actual target however as the moss may be trying to make up for the lack of CO2 by using up more light.

CO2 helps nutrient uptake and use. Conversely lack of CO2 would mean more energy would be used up to take up more nutrients. Hence the rhizoids. 

Just theories, true, but it would be interesting to see if and how the mosses in Francesco's tanks would respond to additional CO2?

and KL can you remember if the bushy to stringy moss was related to lower pressurised CO2 or an increase in temperature (which also lowers dissolved CO2)?

What do you think?

regards


Stephan

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## timebomb

Stephan,

As far as I know, things are rather strange with the Erect Moss (_V. reticulata_). In almost everyone's tanks, it has turned brown and died. In certain tanks, before the moss turns brown, it first loses it bushy fronds and turns rather stringy. I'm quite sure it has got nothing to do with a change of parameters because I observed the same thing happening in Bioplast's tanks. Over at Bioplast, they maintain all their tanks pretty much the same way - high lighting, plenty of CO2 and frequent water changes. 

I do suspect that a change in Kh or Gh can have a drastic effect on the mosses' growth. Take a look at these pictures:





The 2 pictures are of the same tank, several months apart. The moss in the foreground (tied to rocks) is Spiky Moss (_Taxiphyllum sp_). I found out after tearing down the tank, that the rocks I was using were not suitable. They were highly acidic in nature. Unfortunately, I didn't measure the Kh of my tank as I do not have the proper test kits but I'm quite certain that the unusual growth of the Spiky Moss was due to a sharp drop in alkalinity.

After I threw away the rocks and tied the Spiky Moss to driftwoods instead, it recover it's normal form. It now looks something like this:



Loh K L

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## FC

> CO2 helps nutrient uptake and use. Conversely lack of CO2 would mean more energy would be used up to take up more nutrients.


In my opinion, water enriched with CO2 serves 2 functions:
1) assist plants in carbon intake
2) deoxidise nutrients such as iron which oxidise readily in water. This is highly important as it helps providing plants with better form of nutrients.

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## imported_stephan

Thanks KL & FC for your replies.

FC, there is a good article in the dec 2006 issue of TAG by Troels Anderson, where he has listed a number of functions of added CO2. He has shown that with light, CO2 and N, increasing only one resource allowed marked growth, even though the others were limiting. Experiments have shown that plants "use the extra CO2 to optimise light use or to increase the uptake of inorganic nutrients".

Regarding the elongation and subsequent death of the erect moss; it looks like what happens to a number of terrestrial mosses that are submerged. I have seen at least three mosses I collected locally do this. The elongation is a reaction to submergence, and is common in Flood tolerant plants. The browning and dying is also what happens in terrestrial mosses that are flooded but cannot cope with the submergence. The last indicates a deterioration in conditions. V reticulata is a terrestrial moss after all or better said; less aquatic than other Vesiculuria species. I think that when this happened throughout Singapore some of you blamed the tap water. Did you check it for GH/KH? One other parameter which could have changed in all your tanks could have been temperature. Was there a heat wave or was it the hotter part of the year? Cold temperatures have a remarkable effect on the ability of mosses to survive underwater. It's because their C3 carbon fixing mechanism works much better at lower temperatures. A couple of degrees could have made the difference.

I am doing some experiments on the elongation in Christmas moss. It is obvious that the elongation + lack of branching takes place when there is less CO2 and less light. Now I have to see what happens when I increase the CO2 and light on elongated stems... 

KL, apparently people not in Singapore did not have the same problem with erect moss when the problem occured there. I would be very interested if you remember what the temperatures were like when the erect moss problem happened.

Also is it my imagination or does the spiky moss appear more well lit on the driftwood? Is it closer to the surface? Better light would also create a bushier effect.

Many thanks

regards
Stephan

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## dageti

Dear all,
sorry that it took me ages once again to reply. I'm finding it very hard at the moment to find some time for the forum (and my tanks), what with work and all else.




> You're sure they are rhizoids, Francesco? It could be they are sex organs, you know. Take a look at these 2 pictures. The first one shows rhizoids while the second one shows the sex organs.


Thanks Kwek Leong, mine are definitely rhizoids. They are identical to the ones in the first picture.




> One function of rhizoids is nutrient uptake.


This comes as a bit of a surprise to me. I thought their only function was to anchor the moss to whatever surface they grow upon.




> Just theories, true, but it would be interesting to see if and how the mosses in Francesco's tanks would respond to additional CO2?


I added CO2 in my tank days after my last post and indeed it has responded wildly. It has now invaded the tank, leaving so little swimming space to the fish that soon I'll have to trim off most of it. However, only the Christmas Moss has continued growth in its 'regular' form. The Spiky and the 'Java' Moss are still growing elongated.

When I clear the tank of the excess moss, I'm going to tie the Spiky moss to the driftwood just like Kwek Leong did, and I'll also lower the pH (which should also benefit the Galaxy Rasboras and hopefully kick them into spawing mode). We'll see if the moss will revert to normal compact growth as it did in Kwek Leong's tank.

Thank you Stephan for all the interesting input you provided, and of course to KL for helping me identify the rhizoids and the insights into the KH/GH aspects.

Francesco

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