# General > Member's Lounge > Photography >  Digital SLR for below S$2000

## benny

Hi guys,

Seems like prices of digital SLR cameras are falling faster than ever!

Anyway, it's now possible to get a complete Canon 300D Digital SLR with lens kit for around S$1850 (excluding CF card). Previously, the Canon G5 was launched at S$1499 and that's less than a year ago. I suppose by Christmas, the "promotional package" will be even more attractive.

To think that 1 year ago, the (now VERY obsolete) Canon D60 camera body alone was retailing at S$3980, it's really amazing. The Canon D60 has since been replaced by the Canon 10D at a substantial reduction in recommended retail price (which was still almost S$1000 above the Canon 300D).

For those interested, here is a review of the new Canon 300D at www.dpreview.com

Here is the offical site for the Canon 300D

To see loupgarou's Corydoras loxozonus taken with the new 300D, click here

Apparently, there is a waiting list for this camera.

So the question for discussion is...

*At the rate that the cameras/new features are introduced, coupled with the falling prices, does it make sense to wait?*

Cheers,

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## hwchoy

the way it is going it'd be just like the PC. suggestion for the DSLR users, buy REALLY good lens, keep it, and upgrade the body every couple of years! [ :Knockout: ]

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## PohSan

But how good is Digital camera compare to Film type in term of resolution? Some sites said that digital cam can only matched film resolution when it is 20 Mega Pixels and I think it is still a few more year to go. For me, my A40, 2 MB camera is more than enough. At most of the time, I even need to downsize it to 640 x 480 pixel if publish on the web. 

It is like buying PC: only buy when you really need it. SOme of my frds buy the lastest PC only to sufe net and type report which I think a P3 PC is aready sufficient. 

At this moment, I will personally feels that just buy a cheap 3 mega pixel digital cam like canon A70 and only upgrade it to a high end 20MP digital cam in 3 to 4 years later. 

above is just my personal opinion: no offend

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## loupgarou

end of day, depends on what you want.

btw: the system above is not really $1850, you need to get a CF card at least before you can shoot.
so that's additional $200 for a 512mb. (you can expect that to drop as well).


------------------------------

however, considering that a G5 is $1299 nowadays..
the price difference is only $700 for something with better resale value:


http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=28172
http://reflecx.netfirms.com/cameraprices.html
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=38677

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## lsz

digital had reached a point where it can quite easily satisfy most hobbyist needs. 

Unless you are saying that while a 6MP is more than enough for your current needs, you will NEED a 11MP 2 years from now... 
The question is, no doubt it will keep improving. But what is the REAL need for you to upgrade when &amp;quot;the time&amp;quot; comes? Do you need to print out your pictures to the size of mahjong paper all the time ? 

you may just be happier by spending time taking more pictures rather than chasing equipment. 

Is it a safe time now to invest in it? I will say yes.
No doubt film body is cheaper, but film and development cost is high. 
If you compare by volume alone, you can easily make back with a digital within a year or so. Unless like said earlier a 6MP is not good enough for you.

And about picture quality, there is much more than resolution and megapixels. Judgeing a camera by MP alone is not accurate.

regarding film vs digital, at this point it is a matter of preference. I went back to film because i feel that digital sucks the life out of photography, and also the pictures do not have the kind of look i want. Fake, in short. Besides, i dislike the built quality of modern cameras and lenses. Even top end ones. But these are strictly personal.

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## sweet instrument

i'm a die hard SLR user, but i do give in the fact that digital SLR does allow more room for &amp;quot;cheating&amp;quot;

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## wynx

> ----------------
> On 9/22/2003 10:41:08 PM 
> 
> digital had reached a point where it can quite easily satisfy most hobbyist needs. 
> 
> Unless you are saying that while a 6MP is more than enough for your current needs, you will NEED a 11MP 2 years from now... 
> The question is, no doubt it will keep improving. But what is the REAL need for you to upgrade when &amp;amp;amp;quot;the time&amp;amp;amp;quot; comes? Do you need to print out your pictures to the size of mahjong paper all the time ? 
> 
> you may just be happier by spending time taking more pictures rather than chasing equipment. 
> ...


Digital photography have eroded the art of photography,it seems. But I supposed nothing beats people whom are equipment craze. In photography, the most important element is the photography, he who can capture the moment, equipment can help in certain extent but truthly in my humble view, if the photographer sucks, no matter what equipment he uses, the work produces suck too...


Just my two sens  :Smile:  

BTW, I am going to get my EOS300D, if it proves its worth the next three month [ :Grin: ]

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## PohSan

Hi bro wynx, why the hurry? Just relax and read other's review before buying the lastest model. Most of the time, new camera or other electrical appliances come with bug on the initial batch. Allow some time for them to sort out the bug. 

Personally, I agreed with why all the bros said, there is no point to judge the quality of your cam by MB. Most importantly is the lens and the user's technique. End image is always adjustable using Photo editing software. 

Film cam is good but not for taking plants and fishes since fish do not stay stationary. Digital cam shine in this area since you can take thousand of photo and select the best one without development cost. However if publish on the web, my trusty 2MB cam is more than enough.

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## loupgarou

EOS 300d newbie pics.




Kitty under my block



close up of a credit card receipt using canon 100mm macro lens (was testing it)

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well, if you're waiting for bugs/problems, canon seldom does.
furthermore, the 300d price will not likely drop to lower than $1700 for months (ie: canon prices are relatively stable.)

you will expect a price drop of higher end models when something like (300d) comes along, eg: 10d prices have fallen abit with the 300d's release.

10d prices will probably drop further (or 1Ds 's) with the relase of canon 3Ds (*rumored*)

but again, not expected by that much.

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## naturetan

> ----------------
> On 9/22/2003 11:23:33 PM 
> 
> Digital photography have eroded the art of photography,it seems. 
> ----------------


Really? Why you think so? How you define art in photography? Curious.

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## FND

I'm still waiting for Minolta to release their DSLR. [ :Knockout: ] Till then... I'll stick by my SLR

-FND-&amp;gt;

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## wynx

> ----------------
> On 9/23/2003 2:00:58 PM 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------
> On 9/22/2003 11:23:33 PM 
> ...


Quite simply, back in the days of non digital camera, photographers tend to compose their shots before they snap. But nowadays, the lower cost of digital camera tend to have photographers snapping away without much though of compostion, etc. So in that sense, some art of photography is lost.
 :Razz:

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## FND

> ----------------
> So the question for discussion is...
> At the rate that the cameras/new features are introduced, coupled with the falling prices, does it make sense to wait?[/b]
> ----------------


Answer to the above question - if this information is to be believed... why not! --&amp;gt; ClubSnap - Special Advisory from New York Institue of Photography

-FND-&amp;gt;

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## naturetan

I guess whether it make sense to wait or not is quite individual. Some people buy cameras just like handphone, keep upgrading like rich man. Some buy because they're eager technological consumer. Some buy for the sake of feeling more &amp;quot;professional&amp;quot;. Some would never buy because it's always getting cheaper and better. Etc.... 

So to me there's no definite answer. It's a matter of what an individual thinks when getting such gadgets. Well, if you are well-off, you're free to get what you want as long as you're happy.[ :Grin: ] No issue with that.

For my case, I never treat my equipments as an important process in photographic art, though in certain aspect in terms of function flexibility and lens quality, yes, it is important. I always treat all equipments just like a tool. A brush or pen is a tool. A person whom own the best tools in the world like a brush might not make him become an successful artist and produce great art. Same in photography. They are all means to help us to express our inner vision.

If we understand this, you'll not feel upset, if so, about why we buy at the wrong time and price, etc. Our process of exploring such art become a joyful and open journey. This I've always raised out in photographic forums to encourage many to journey out into another creative process, not just the technical aspect of it.

Digital or Analog photography, all appeals to me. In fact, I'm a heavy slide film user. I always use slide for nature photography. I also love the look of the infra-red photography, if you've heard before. However, I also love digital. It's also another creative means that analog photos are not able to express.

The idea to me is not about who has the best equipments, or who can take the sharpest pictures of those fishes, flowers, etc. The idea is with those equipments, how do you design and communicate to the world your inner sense of beauty? How do you best express it through photography?

Analog photography offer me a very unique style of communication. Digital has another style by itself that analog is not able to do. It's the same as when I paint, deciding whether to use oil, watercolor, pastel painting, etc. All has it's individual and unique style of expressing it. It's no point saying watercolor painting is better then oil painting, or vice versa. 

Knowing and understanding different media does give me a broader sense of perspective to communicate with the best art media choice. And to me, having a very open and curious mind will help me appreciate different forms of art, and explore many unknown that I enjoy.

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## lsz

There is not right or wrong. 
Make your opinions heard. 
They are only personal. 

Some food for thought, regardless of if one takes digital or not:

Equipment Measurbators : as KenRockwell had put it, people who spend more time talking about cameras than taking real pictures. I alway thought it was Equipment Masturbators until i visited the website again. (my misinterpretation made more sense to me though) 

Part of one of his articles. Of course there are some sweeping statements but many parts of it are true and observable in certain &amp;quot;photographic&amp;quot; forums. : 

&amp;quot; ..........................Equipment Measurbator: Bottom Level 1 (equivalent to &amp;quot;Hell&amp;quot; in Christian mythology)

These men (and they are all men) have no interest in art or photography because they have no souls. Lacking souls they cannot express imagination or feeling, which is why their images, if they ever bother to make any, suck.

Most seem to come from technical avocations, like engineering, computers and sciences. These people worry so much about trying to put numerical ratings on things that they are completely oblivious to the fact that cameras or test charts have nothing to do with the spirit of an image. Because they worry so much about measuring camera performance we have dubbed them &amp;quot;Measurbators.&amp;quot; Unfortunately, many of them wander into KenRockwell.com looking for information on camera performance.

Many of them also play with audio equipment, computers or automobiles. They enjoy these toys just like their cameras for their own sake, but rarely if ever actually use them for the intended purposes. 

Younger ones play video games or engage in chat rooms and web surfing. Older ones join &amp;quot;camera&amp;quot; clubs. (You should join photography clubs, but never camera clubs or any clubs that try to score art, since art is entirely subjective and cannot be scored numerically.) Likewise, these people never create anything notable with any of this other gear either, but they sure get excited by just having, getting or talking to you about it.

The one type of gear these people ignore is the only type of gear that actually helps: lighting.

They are interested solely in equipment for its own sake. They will talk your ear off for hours if you let them, but as soon as you ask to see their portfolio their bravado scurries away, or they think you want to see their cameras or stocks.

Someone with a decent portfolio is not an equipment measurbator. Someone with more cameras than decent photos just may be. People with websites teeming with technical articles but few interesting photographs probably are.

Do not under any circumstances deal with these people, talk to them, read their websites or especially ask them for photography advice. To the innocent they seem like fonts of knowledge, however their sick, lifeless souls would love to drag you into their own personal Hells and have your spirit forever mired in worrying about how sharp your lens is. If you start worrying about this and you'll never photograph anything again except brick walls and test charts.....................&amp;quot;

He mentioned about the &amp;quot;7 levels&amp;quot; 
Rest of the article is here if anyone is interested The Seven Levels of Photographers

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## benny

> ----------------
> On 9/24/2003 6:06:35 AM 
> 
> The idea to me is not about who has the best equipments, or who can take the sharpest pictures of those fishes, flowers, etc. The idea is with those equipments, how do you design and communicate to the world your inner sense of beauty? How do you best express it through photography?
> 
> ----------------


Well said.

The equipment is a means to an end. The essence of photography (aquatic or otherwise) is communication, not the race for equipment aquisition.

Till today, I still find joy in using a 1976 camera (almost 27 years old) that my dad gave me! It does not have auto-focus, E-TTL, Evaluative metering or automatic film advance. But it works.

Cheers,

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## Goondoo

I had always had no sense of arts. My picture taking skills are taking maxed at taking normal group photos etc. Even had problem taking pictures of my fish tank despite many teaching attempts from some gurus here...

I bought an camera not long ago...
1) I prefer an auto-focus (Point to shoot) digital camera (focus speed must be as fast as possible). 
2) I want it with some idiot proof functions (those ISO etc stuffs drive me out of my windows).
3) I want a small and compact one, so I can bring it where ever I go
4) There must be atleast above average picture quality.
5) Budget should not exceed $900

Base on my preference, I bought my first DC, Casio QV-R4. Just love it, I brought it nearly every where I go....

Just one bad, I picked up diving recently and Casio don't do diving casing...  :Mad:  :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:  

The point is set what you want and go for it, waiting for the price to drop will be like a forever wait. It might be slow, but price never stop falling over the next ten years.

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## lsz

Goondoo, Art is too subjective. I dont really believe in it myself (about what is a good picture) . THe more important thing is to take pictures for yourself to enjoy. 

Yeah Benny continue to find joy in it! 

for a 1976 camera, it is not a matter of whether it has evaluative metering or not because it does not even exist. 
seriously, what is that? 

a camera just need a decent lens and an accurate shutter and center weighted meter to take great pictures. it is the case in 1976, it is the case now ! 

My camera does not have autofocus, it does not even have spot metering not to mention whatever else, i have to advance the film myslef, but i could get it brand new! Thats why i love it so much 
 :Smile:

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## loupgarou

interesting add on...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...amp;amp;is=REG

how safe is it to macro shoot a shark? lol

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## loupgarou

playing with my new EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM

duck: 

http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~loup...5/IMG_4964.JPG
duck porcelain

http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~loup...5/IMG_4914.JPG
duck eye

http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~loup...-09-25/eye.jpg
duck pupil


cat: 

http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~loup...-09-25/cat.jpg
whole cat

http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~loup...5/IMG_4945.JPG
cat face

http://pachome2.pacific.net.sg/~loup...09-25/nose.jpg
cat nose

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## lsz

the full bodied cat, direct flash?

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## loupgarou

yeah.. neat demon cat effect.
heh
--
using the built in flash.

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## hwchoy

let's organise picture taking at LFS!

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## lsz

> ----------------
> On 9/25/2003 1:10:55 AM 
> 
> yeah.. neat demon cat effect.
> heh
> --
> using the built in flash.
> ----------------


haha green eye monster
maybe you can try bounce flash too..
get catch light instead of green eyes! 

For myself i feel that just a little more space all around the cat will make the picture better. The tight framing does not add to the picture in this case. but great start

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## FND

> ----------------
> On 9/25/2003 1:24:50 AM 
> 
> let's organise picture taking at LFS!
> ----------------


Good idea... but where? fish farm? aquatic plant farm? Will the owner be agreeable to such ideas?

Maybe plant it's ok but fish? 

-FND-&amp;gt;

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## loupgarou

seems like the 2nd batch of 300d is cheaper. just out on sept 24th.. 1750 or so. (make sure you get an equote from cathayphoto.com.sg first before purchase).

for those waiting. is there a point?

take note: your total cost of ownership can be under $2000 depending on what you want to do and give you upgrade options in the long run.

so eos300d + kit = $1750 to $1850
close up lenses: $15-$16 each, +1 to +4
cf card; 512mb :$150+
http://www.geocities.com/tongeh2001/Tongeh.html

so total cost of ownership:
around $2000

---
the following are handheld taken on auto mode 
with (+1 and +4 ) close up filters,the 18-55 kit lens and the built in flash.

 Concolor and Melini
 Rasbora Agilis
 Sturisoma sp.
 Eirmotus Octozona
 Atropersonatus
 Malayan Shrimp
 snail taken at odd angle
 Pygmaeus
 Malayan Shrimp
 Dicrossus Filamentosus
 Botia Sidthimunkis
 Similis
 What apisto is this?
 Polystictus or Xinguensis
 Hara Hara
 brevist...
 Sturisoma sp.
 darter tetra
 Sturisoma sp.
[/url]

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## loupgarou

taken with 100mm f2.8 macro no tripod.. (haven't bought yet).
so a little blur.

4 mm size snail on java fern cropped taken 31 cm away.



incidentally this is a bad snail. (and it survived limnacid/anti snail treatment)

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## loupgarou

summary:

cost of ownership of digital slr. 
specifically Canon eos300d.

Mandatory items
eos 300d - $1750-$1850 
hi speed compact flash card: 256mb = $96 , 512mb = $190
dry cabinet (30litre)- $99 - $150

(check prices at http://www.hardwarezone.com)
http://sg.hardwarezone.com/priceguid...ide.php?id=118


&amp;quot;mandatory&amp;quot; Optionals (ie: good to have, but can live without)
Camera Bag : lowepro nova 2 aw - $42 (cathayphoto equote)
tripod - $100+ (check for loading)

Canon Speedlite 420 EX - $327 (cathayphoto equote)
Canon Speedlite 550 EX - $606 (cathayphoto equote)
Rechargeable batteries (sanyo from eastgear.com: $12 for 4)
quick Rechargable battery station : $49 to $65 , sony is ok.
Canon ST-E2 Remote Transmitter - $295 or less
2CR5 lithium battery for ST-E2 - $10

UV filters (more for lens protection), $10 to $14
58mm close up lens +1 to +4 , anywhere from $10 to $16


Remote Switch RS-60E3 - $55 or less

Omnibounce - $50 or less

--if you have nothing better to do with your money--
canon EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro lens @ S$2,432.00
Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM @ S$951.00

-take note somethings you can get for less secondhand

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## hwchoy

if you have a macro lens you wouldn't need the close-up filter right?

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## loupgarou

dunno.

close up lens is so that you can go closer to the subject (which at the same time magnifies closer to lifesize).

with the 100mm macro lens, you have to be like 0.31m away from the subject to focus.

however if you're using the built in flash, that almost assuredly means you get a flash reflection.

however according to the literature, they say the 100mm macro is not suited for close up lens and I don't have the need to try it out yet... heh.. but I'll try tonight and see if I can stick the camera against the glass and peer into an oto's stomach...hahah

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## hwchoy

haven't benny showed you his Ring Flash yet? damn thing look more evil than my M203 grenade launcher lahz.  :Smile:

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## naturetan

> ----------------
> On 9/29/2003 1:23:50 PM 
> 
> if you have a macro lens you wouldn't need the close-up filter right?
> ----------------


Depends on what magnification ratio you're looking for. If you can do without that filter, that will be best. Usually such filter suffers to certain degree in image quality, and it's always better to buy the best that you can afford. There're also other better ways than filter to do macro, without getting expensive macro lens. But then it has its disadvantage.

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## hwchoy

unfortunately for those of us without DSLR, no choice lehz [ :Embarassed: ]

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## benny

> ----------------
> On 9/29/2003 9:59:10 PM 
> 
> unfortunately for those of us without DSLR, no choice lehz [] 
> ----------------


Yes you do. Don't keep small fishes like barbs and rasboras!! Keep big big fishes like arowanas!. [ :Grin: ]

Cheers,

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## naturetan

Isn't it better not to have choices? Don't need to spend and crack our head, just switch to macro mode and snap! No fish, prawn also can. :Razz:

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## loupgarou

yes, I've tried the mp65 lens and the ring flash. apparently its good only if the fish is dead and you want to eg: check gills, liver etc.. haha

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## hwchoy

yah benny, I will come to your house and release some really big LH into your tanks [:0]  :Razz:

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