# Planted Tanks > Beginners' Corner >  An excellent video on Co2 for newbies like me :-)

## Filet-O-Fish

Hi guys,
I came across this excellent video by Dennis Wong. It will be useful for new aquarist or anyone who wants to understand Co2 for a planted tank. Hope you enjoy it.
Cheers.

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## Hund Wong

thanks for sharing

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## skytan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWZnPNPW4Cs
This will also be suggested after watching.

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## Gavan

wow. who is this Dennis Wong on the forum? I would really like to say thank you and compliment him on the video. very very well-made and very informative and comprehensive! I'm sure most ppl would have learnt something from that video, even ppl who think they understood CO2's full function in an aquarium 


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## mercur1al

> wow. who is this Dennis Wong on the forum? I would really like to say thank you and compliment him on the video. very very well-made and very informative and comprehensive! I'm sure most ppl would have learnt something from that video, even ppl who think they understood CO2's full function in an aquarium 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think he's on this forum actually. 

Remember seeing his scape earlier. His nick here should be xiaozhuang.


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## Gavan

yeah I'm sure he is on this forum, what I meant above was trying to ask what is his nick. as a full time tertiary tutor I know how much effort it takes to even deliver a "simple" 5 minute video, let alone this with so many diagrams and continuous recordings


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## Ingen

Nice tank to prove his theory. Any comments on the co2 mist theory?

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## Ingen

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWZnPNPW4Cs
> This will also be suggested after watching.


I always imagine tom bar to be the nerdy type lol

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## Bieffe

Very good work! What reactor he use to get mist out from lily?

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## mercur1al

> Very good work! What reactor he use to get mist out from lily?



He used the Up Aqua atomizer. 



This is a video of it in operation.




Video and images from google & youtube.

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## Bieffe

The 2nd ang mor video cannot see.

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## Bieffe

> He used the Up Aqua atomizer. 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a video of it in operation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video and images from google & youtube.


What's the damage and where can I find this didn't see this at East ocean and Seaview

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## AQMS

This is his thread.
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ght=xiaozhuang

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## mercur1al

> What's the damage and where can I find this didn't see this at East ocean and Seaview


Seaview should have it, though I don't remember the exact cost.

Show the staff the picture and they will bring you there.


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## Filet-O-Fish

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWZnPNPW4Cs
> This will also be suggested after watching.


Hi skytan :Smile: 
I have this on my YouTube playlist also! You can really learn a lot from this if you pay attention to the details. 
This was the video that made me want to stick to T5s for the moment.
If T5s are good enough for Tom Barr, then its certainly good enough for me. :Well done: 
Cheers.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> What's the damage and where can I find this didn't see this at East ocean and Seaview


Hi Bieffe,
You can get it from SeaView. I got mine from there also. 
Before this I wanted to order through Ebay but the cost was actually more.


The UP brand is a good choice cause you can take apart the diffuser and clean the ceramic tube more efficiently.


Before this I was using an Intense brand which is also good but its a pain in the #%@ when cleaning with bleach or hydrogen peroxide.

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## Filet-O-Fish

Hi guys thanks for kind comment. Very glad to know this video will help. All credits go to Dennis Wong.

Anyway, I found this on a planted tank FB post. This is the screen shot about Co2 matters.
It'll be useful to the members here, I hope.

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## Filet-O-Fish

Hi
This one FB page where you can learn a lot about planted tank. Tom Barr hangs around here many times. Other members found in this group are loaded with experience and tips. :Smile: 
I've found this helpful for many of my plants related issues.

Cheers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AquaticGardeners/

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## Bieffe

> Hi Bieffe,
> You can get it from SeaView. I got mine from there also. 
> Before this I wanted to order through Ebay but the cost was actually more.
> 
> 
> The UP brand is a good choice cause you can take apart the diffuser and clean the ceramic tube more efficiently.
> 
> 
> Before this I was using an Intense brand which is also good but its a pain in the #%@ when cleaning with bleach or hydrogen peroxide.


Thank you very much!

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## AQMS

Hey i have a brand new one from intense 12/16mm,if you are interested pm me.

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## Ingen

Got the UP atomizer to try, I read shadow's blog saying it takes awhile to get that extra pressure up before it will dispense co2. It has been more than 10mins and I don't see any micro bubbles coming out. Any idea if there is a minimum working pressure for this atomizer?

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## mercur1al

> Got the UP atomizer to try, I read shadow's blog saying it takes awhile to get that extra pressure up before it will dispense co2. It has been more than 10mins and I don't see any micro bubbles coming out. Any idea if there is a minimum working pressure for this atomizer?


I don't exactly recall but it should be upwards of 35psi for it to work properly.




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## Ingen

That's not encouraging... Mine is only at 25-30...

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## Ingen

Are you able to see the micro bubbles through the ayomizer?

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## Urban Aquaria

> That's not encouraging... Mine is only at 25-30...


Thats too low, you need higher working pressure for the atomizer to work properly.

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## Ingen

That means need to buy a new solenoid valve...

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## mercur1al

> That means need to buy a new solenoid valve...


A cheaper alternative is to get an ISTA turbo reactor. 



Compared to the UP inline atomizer you got, this one dissolves CO2 much more effectively, with no misting/bubbles effect. Doesn't require high pressure to run as well.

UA is using it, can probably wait for him to comment but i think he's fairly happy with it. Only thing is to get one which matches your canister flow rates. I am tempted to get one myself to replace the UP inline atomizer i am currently using, but slightly concerned that it might slow down the output too much.

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## Ingen

I was using the mix max reactor for the longest time till I change to a small canister for my 30L and the reactor slows the flow significantly. I understand that the working pressure cannot be adjusted, what's a reasonable solenoid in the market that has 46 and up working pressure?

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## milk_vanilla

You could try the latest batch ans, it provides 40-45 psi. It's written in the packaging.

* me no affiliation with ans

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## Ingen

Thanks for th recommendation, I saw the pricing online and it seems reasonable, not sure if it's the newer version. How about intense solenoid valve?

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## milk_vanilla

Yes actually in the packaging, it said new version, high pressure, compatible with intense solenoid or something like that, forgotten the exact sentences


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## Urban Aquaria

Yeah... a Co2 reactor would be suitable for a Co2 system with lower working pressure, but if you want to use the inline atomizer, then definitely need to get those solenoid regulators which are adjustable (usually tend to be more expensive though) or are already set with higher working pressures.

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## mercur1al

> Thanks for th recommendation, I saw the pricing online and it seems reasonable, not sure if it's the newer version. How about intense solenoid valve?


There's a sticker on the box that says "new version" for the ANS one.

For the price, it works well. Idling pressure is about 60+ psi, about 50psi when in operation.

I think the intense works well as well, just twice the price.


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## Ingen

How do we know the up atomizer is working other than the drop checker color? I shine a touch light and don't see any bubbles. I just changed to an intense regulator.

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## Urban Aquaria

> How do we know the up atomizer is working other than the drop checker color? I shine a touch light and don't see any bubbles. I just changed to an intense regulator.


For the Up Aqua atomizer, although the bubbles are very tiny, you should still see a misty/smokey trail coming out of the outflow pipe... and your whole tank should look abit misty (like got foggy look) when the system is in operation.

If your tank looks clear, then the atomizer might somehow be stuck or clogged up, so you have to check it or clean it. Also check the regulator and the connections to make sure there are no leaks which will affect the working pressure.

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## Ingen

I'm using a rain bar, so I'm not sure if the bubbles are from the atomizer. Does it work if I use a splitter, not sure if a splitter splits the working pressure.

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## Urban Aquaria

> I'm using a rain bar, so I'm not sure if the bubbles are from the atomizer. Does it work if I use a splitter, not sure if a splitter splits the working pressure.


I see, okay that'll make it difficult to observe if its working... i guess you'll just have to monitor the drop checker color to determine if its working.

A splitter will reduce the overall working pressure going to each separate port (the more it splits the more the pressure decreases), so that might cause the atomizer to stop working due to insufficient pressure.

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## Ingen

I see. I reckon there's no bubble if I look into the atomizer?

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## Urban Aquaria

> I see. I reckon there's no bubble if I look into the atomizer?


Can check and see if you can spot anything... another method is to detach the rainbar and just use the outflow pipe, maybe can see the misty/smokey trail more easily.

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## milk_vanilla

Use ph meter, digital preferably. It should drop after 15-30 minutes on. For my case, it dropped 0.5 , after half hour.

There was time where my atomizer didn't seal properly, and it only end up 0.1-0.2 ph drop after 2 hours on  :Sad: 


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## Ingen

I give up on the atomizer... The indicator on Intense regulator is the "BAR" supposedly the working pressure, does it also indicate how much co2 left? Other than feeling how heaving the canister is haha

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## Urban Aquaria

> I give up on the atomizer... The indicator on Intense regulator is the "BAR" supposedly the working pressure, does it also indicate how much co2 left? Other than feeling how heaving the canister is haha


You can sort of tell by the pressure reading on the single gauge, if its higher like 900-1100 PSI, then that shows the total tank pressure... if its lower like 50-60 PSI, then that shows working pressure.

Btw, 1 Bar = 14.5037738 PSI.

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## Gavan

I believe intense solenoid gives you the working pressure, not how much left.


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## Xiaozhuang

Hi guys, thanks for the support

For those interested in the Co2 mist theory, the paper to read is Volume 1, Issue 10 oct 2005 of the Barr Report, available at Tom Barr's website of the same name (but you need to pay a subscription fee). His papers are valuable because of usage of high-end equipment to accurately test variables in the planted aquarium, something out of reach of hobbyist's test kits. The papers are very detailed and cover many topics, but may be hard to read.

Some stuff that I missed out in the video:
If you use mist/atomizers, they will use much more CO2 than reactors, which are very efficient. Amano's home tanks, Tom barr's as well all use reactors, as well as plenty of other folks so it should not be seen that the inline diffuser is the superior method; it's just the one that I use for convenience now. If you're super anal about having the efficiency of a CO2 reactor combined with some misting effect, you can google Tom barr's venturi reactor which gives this (arguably its the ultimate CO2 delivery method).

The drop checker should be placed in the most disadvantages position of the tank; i.e. near the substrate, at a corner. As CO2 mist floats upwards, the higher areas of the tank will get better access to CO2/flow esp if you rely heavily on misting. If your stem plants all do well, but carpet plants don't, it may be a sign that water flow isn't delivering to the substrate level. (This is the number 1 cause of failure to grow carpets, not sure I mentioned in the vid). People that rely on misting are more vulnerable to this than people who use reactors. 

Last point that I missed is that plants can take up to a week to adjust their rubisco functions (the enzyme that collects CO2), so while CO2 impact can generally be seen quite quickly, the full effect can take up to a week to manifest.

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## koky

I thought I should just share my experience on using this up-aqua new atomizer after reading that some of you are giving up on that equipment.

A couple weeks ago after doing my canister maintenance, I fixed back everything and assumed it ran as normal. But when it was time for my CO2 to come on, I no longer see the mist produced. The bubble counter also showed the count slowly reducing till not bubbling. Checked my working pressure and was the normal at 50+; using the new ANS regulator with solenoid valve. Checked the whole system and realised the atomizer was almost totally filled with water. Shut the canister, detached the atomizer from my outflow pipe, empty the water, attached only my CO2 tube to the atomizer and turn on the CO2. After I can hear some sizzling from the atomizer which means the CO2 is being pushed through the atomizer, I reconnect the outflow pipe and turn on the canister again. I can see the CO2 mist again!

It worked for me so perhaps those not able to see the mist may try what I did and see if it helps.

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## Urban Aquaria

> I thought I should just share my experience on using this up-aqua new atomizer after reading that some of you are giving up on that equipment.
> 
> A couple weeks ago after doing my canister maintenance, I fixed back everything and assumed it ran as normal. But when it was time for my CO2 to come on, I no longer see the mist produced. The bubble counter also showed the count slowly reducing till not bubbling. Checked my working pressure and was the normal at 50+; using the new ANS regulator with solenoid valve. Checked the whole system and realised the atomizer was almost totally filled with water. Shut the canister, detached the atomizer from my outflow pipe, empty the water, attached only my CO2 tube to the atomizer and turn on the CO2. After I can hear some sizzling from the atomizer which means the CO2 is being pushed through the atomizer, I reconnect the outflow pipe and turn on the canister again. I can see the CO2 mist again!
> 
> It worked for me so perhaps those not able to see the mist may try what I did and see if it helps.


Yeah, thats a good tip... when the atomizer is filled with water, the back-pressure of the water volume in the chamber prevents the Co2 gas from getting to the ceramic tube (it has to displace the water back out through the ceramic tube first, which is difficult), in some systems the back-pressure is high enough to actually totally stop the gas output.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> I thought I should just share my experience on using this up-aqua new atomizer after reading that some of you are giving up on that equipment.
> A couple weeks ago after doing my canister maintenance, I fixed back everything and assumed it ran as normal. But when it was time for my CO2 to come on, I no longer see the mist produced. The bubble counter also showed the count slowly reducing till not bubbling. Checked my working pressure and was the normal at 50+; using the new ANS regulator with solenoid valve. Checked the whole system and realised the atomizer was almost totally filled with water. Shut the canister, detached the atomizer from my outflow pipe, empty the water, attached only my CO2 tube to the atomizer and turn on the CO2. After I can hear some sizzling from the atomizer which means the CO2 is being pushed through the atomizer, I reconnect the outflow pipe and turn on the canister again. I can see the CO2 mist again! It worked for me so perhaps those not able to see the mist may try what I did and see if it helps.


Good tip. :Well done:  Thanks for sharing your experience.
I'll keep it in mind.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Some stuff that I missed out in the video:
> If you use mist/atomizers, they will use much more CO2 than reactors, which are very efficient. Amano's home tanks, Tom barr's as well all use reactors, as well as plenty of other folks so it should not be seen that the inline diffuser is the superior method; it's just the one that I use for convenience now. If you're super anal about having the efficiency of a CO2 reactor combined with some misting effect, you can google Tom barr's venturi reactor which gives this (arguably its the ultimate CO2 delivery method).
> 
> The drop checker should be placed in the most disadvantages position of the tank; i.e. near the substrate, at a corner. As CO2 mist floats upwards, the higher areas of the tank will get better access to CO2/flow esp if you rely heavily on misting. If your stem plants all do well, but carpet plants don't, it may be a sign that water flow isn't delivering to the substrate level. (This is the number 1 cause of failure to grow carpets, not sure I mentioned in the vid). People that rely on misting are more vulnerable to this than people who use reactors. 
> 
> Last point that I missed is that plants can take up to a week to adjust their rubisco functions (the enzyme that collects CO2), so while CO2 impact can generally be seen quite quickly, the full effect can take up to a week to manifest.


Hi Dennis,
I've read much about reactors and the added benefits it brings. One thing that draws me to the use of reactor is the mist free tank. It's really awesome to see only the plants pearling in a tank with no Co2 microbubbles. I tried using a reactor for my 4 feet tank for a month and the below are my observations:
1. I used more Co2 when compared with a diffuser. (as seen by the number of bubbles per sec)
2. Had to switch on the Co2 solenoid 4 hours before lights on. (with the inline diffuser, it's 2 hours).
3. Reduced flow from the external canister filter ( Eheim 2080).
4. If too much Co2 is dialed in, gas started to build up in the top part of the reactor.

I was never able to get the DC to lime green and this made BBA, bloom at a very high rate. I'm combating BBA as a result till today. :Crying:  My plants took the most serious hit and started to melt.
I still have the reactor with me, collecting dust. :Laughing: 

From online posts in many forums, I've noticed that most of the time, people tend to give up after some time due to BBA taking over their tank.

So is a Co2 reactor only suitable for mid sized tanks only ( e.g smaller than 70 gallons)? Can you give us some tips for a more efficient use of reactor?

Cheers.

P.S. Please post more awesome videos on your YouTube channel. I'm waiting..... :Smile:

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## Xiaozhuang

Hmm actually reactors are suitable for larger tanks, whereas it's easier to get diffuser mist distributed in a smaller tank. There are many types of reactors though, and they have different efficiencies and need a certain flow rate to work properly. There is quite a lot of tweaking where reactor design and flow rates are concerned to get effective dissolution. One observation on local shops is that a lot of the reactors sold seem quite small size - perhaps they don't work as well on larger tanks and you may have to go the DIY route. Whether you have a reactor that captures all of the CO2, or release some of it as mist is another thing to consider - this can prevent the gas-buildup in point 4. Misting using diffuser is less technical in comparison, so less fiddling for the hobbyist. When used properly, reactors are actually more efficient than diffusers. BBA is definitely caused by fluctuating/low CO2 - one of the few algaes that have quite a clear causation chain. It's also one of the easiest to get rid of in that sense; as CO2 levels improve and plant vigor is regained, it disappears by itself quite quickly.

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## Urban Aquaria

Agree with Xiaozhuang, i've also found that the Co2 reactor designs currently on sale at LFS are designed mainly for tank volumes of 3ft (182+ liters) or below. For larger tank volumes that need to inject alot more Co2, the bubbles per second (BPS) rate ends up so high that the gas quickly fills up the reactor chamber, which renders it ineffective as there is a limit on the amount of Co2 that can dissolve based on the size of the chamber. 

From my experience, the Sera/ISTA reactor designs commonly sold at LFS work most optimally within the range of 1-3 BPS injection rate with ample flow rate (700-1,000 l/ph)... any higher injection rate (ie. 4-5 BPS or higher, worse if the BPS is uncountable) and the Co2 gas starts to overfill the chamber faster than it can be dissolved.

Therefore DIY or custom made reactors would need to be used for larger tanks instead, designed with much larger mixing chambers that have wider surface area (maybe 2-3 times the size of off-the-shelf reactors) to hold the higher volume of gas from increased injection rates during the mixing process.

That being said, i've recently visited a friends home and checked out his 4ft planted tank (4 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 243 liters) which managed to get around that issue. The tank is setup with 2 x Eheim 2217 canister filters (2 x 1,000 l/ph) along with 2 pairs of outflow and inflows, positioned diagonally opposite to each other to optimize circulation (one set is at front left, while the other set is at back right). 

Now the benefit of using 2 canister filters (other than more filter volume and better circulation) is that he can also use 2 reactors, this splits the Co2 dissolving "load" between 2 reactor chambers, which means less BPS can be fed to each reactor, which in turn allows them to run at their optimum efficiency without too much gas overfilling each chamber. His Co2 system is basically installed with a 2-way splitter which connects to both reactors and tuned so that each reactor unit gets around 2-3 BPS. He mentioned the Co2 is scheduled to switch on 1 hour before lights on and switch off 1 hour before lights off. I observed the few drop checkers attached at different parts the tank and all were lime green in color during the active photoperiod.

Seems like a good arrangement for larger tank volumes which want to use off-the-shelf reactors, can try using multiple units to divide the load.

Hope that observation helps.  :Smile:

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Hmm actually reactors are suitable for larger tanks, whereas it's easier to get diffuser mist distributed in a smaller tank.


Thats what I thought too before I ventured into reactors.




> perhaps they don't work as well on larger tanks and you may have to go the DIY route.


Like what Tom Barr shows on his website? The one using a water purifier canister?




> When used properly, reactors are actually more efficient than diffusers.


The key words here is "properly". The sad this is, by the time I try to find the "proper way", BBA takes over.
As much as I would love to retry reactors, I'm like "once bitten twice shy" for now. Maybe once I have gained enough knowledge like UA / Shadow, I may open up the pandora box (aka try the Co2 reactor) :Grin:  




> BBA is definitely caused by fluctuating/low CO2 - one of the few algaes that have quite a clear causation chain. It's also one of the easiest to get rid of in that sense; as CO2 levels improve and plant vigor is regained, it disappears by itself quite quickly.


OK.....this give me an excellent idea, why don't you make a YOUTube vid on this subject(BBA). :Evil:  Challenge accepted? :Wink: 

As for BBA disappearing on it own, I have read in Tom Barr's articles, where he states that old BBA had to be taken out physically or by dosing Excel or H2O2. It would never go away on it own. What can disappear are the new growths which are in the starting stage.
Yours thought on this?

Cheers.

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## Ingen

Every battles I have fought against BBA end up the same... BBA 3 - Ingen 0. I did excel and h202 punch + blast co2 all failed to work. I realized the best cure is prevention, these days once I spot a single BBA I will spot excel immediately lol.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Sera/ISTA reactor designs commonly sold at LFS work most optimally within the range of 1-3 BPS injection rate with ample flow rate (700-1,000 l/ph)... any higher injection rate (ie. 4-5 BPS or higher, worse if the BPS is uncountable) and the Co2 gas starts to overfill the chamber faster than it can be dissolved.


Yup this is what happen to me.




> checked out his 4ft planted tank (4 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 243 liters) which managed to get around that issue. The tank is setup with 2 x Eheim 2217 canister filters (2 x 1,000 l/ph) along with 2 pairs of outflow and inflows, positioned diagonally opposite to each other to optimize circulation (one set is at front left, while the other set is at back right). 
> 
> Now the benefit of using 2 canister filters (other than more filter volume and better circulation) is that he can also use 2 reactors, this splits the Co2 dissolving "load" between 2 reactor chambers, which means less BPS can be fed to each reactor, which in turn allows them to run at their optimum efficiency without too much gas overfilling each chamber. His Co2 system is basically installed with a 2-way splitter which connects to both reactors and tuned so that each reactor unit gets around 2-3 BPS. He mentioned the Co2 is scheduled to switch on 1 hour before lights on and switch off 1 hour before lights off. I observed the few drop checkers attached at different parts the tank and all were lime green in color during the active photoperiod.
> Seems like a good arrangement for larger tank volumes which want to use off-the-shelf reactors, can try using multiple units to divide the load.
> Hope that observation helps.


Thanks UA. I'm have 2 canisters for my 4 feet and I have always wondered if I was over filtering. So I do have the hope of using a reactor....not now....but later. :Smug:

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## vinz

I use a custom made CO2 reactor for my 6 foot tank with sump. Drop checker shows lime green. Got it from NA Nature Aquarium years ago but self-modified recently for higher flow. Not sure if he still makes those. I'll post photos of it later or tomorrow. My hoses and pipings are huge, so it's rare to find off the shelf solutions. My bps is uncountable. I just ordered parts to rig up a multiple bubble counter system. Will show that off once its done up.

Speaking of clearing BBA, there's an active thread talking about Easylife Algexit algicide which seems to work for some people without harming the live stock.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> I use a custom made CO2 reactor for my 6 foot tank with sump. Drop checker shows lime green. Got it from NA Nature Aquarium years ago but self-modified recently for higher flow. Not sure if he still makes those. I'll post photos of it later or tomorrow. My hoses and pipings are huge, so it's rare to find off the shelf solutions. My bps is uncountable. I just ordered parts to rig up a multiple bubble counter system. Will show that off once its done up.
> 
> Speaking of clearing BBA, there's an active thread talking about Easylife Algexit algicide which seems to work for some people without harming the live stock.
> 
> ~ Sent via Tapatalk ~


Hi Vinz, :Smile: 
Yes I have seen it at NA. He has them in stock occasionally. But that thing is so huge! My cabinet is now already crammed with Co2 cylinder and 2 ext canisters and all those timers.

And as for Algexit, I had tried it for 1 to 1 1/2 months but I didn't see any improvement for BBA. I contacted EasyLife directly and even they accepted the fact that Algexit works for some tanks, its like 50/50 situation. 
But Algexit is excellent for green hair algae though.
Now I'm slowly increasing Co2 output and flow and observing the BBA. The thing that bugs me now is that my BBS is not consistent through my ANS Co2 regulator.I'm following your post on that. :Well done:

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## Xiaozhuang

> OK.....this give me an excellent idea, why don't you make a YOUTube vid on this subject(BBA). Challenge accepted?
> 
> As for BBA disappearing on it own, I have read in Tom Barr's articles, where he states that old BBA had to be taken out physically or by dosing Excel or H2O2. It would never go away on it own. What can disappear are the new growths which are in the starting stage.
> Yours thought on this?
> 
> Cheers.


Hahaa, To be completely honest, I have not gotton enough BBA in my tanks to experiment with it. I've seen it in my tanks like twice in the past 15 years, each case mild and disappeared quickly after growth parameters are dialed in (without any use of algicide etc). When I observe it in shops and other people's tanks, it is always associated with slow growth conditions - primarily CO2 related. I do think that Excel/algaecide/H2O2 can be a temporary quick fix for severe cases, but unless the base issues are fixed, then they will always remain as band aids on a problem that returns again and again. Whereas if you have good parameters, then mild cases go away fast, and no nukes are necessary - so having good underlying parameters are much more important.

Cures for algae tend to be holistic - all round good plant growth, good water quality, good CO2 levels and not excessive lighting; a regular schedule of water changes/pruning/fertilization. Understanding the needs of the plants you are keeping is also important. Algae tend to be indicative of our habits more than anything else- those who run conservative growth rates, low rates of CO2 often face BBA. Those that run greedy high light high CO2 tanks often run into Cladophora, or green dust. The thing is that many aquarists try to hit fixed ideal parameters instead of adjusting according to plant/algae growth. So they see the same problems over and over again, and turn to harsher and harsher products (H2O2, algicide, Twinstar.. lol ...) etc). This is the aquatic equivalent of slimming pills. The short answer is that there is seldom a quick fix; it takes time to learn the individual aspects of running a planted tank. The more you experiment and observe, that understanding will you give you knowledge on what works. In the youtube channel I'm more interested in maintaining tank/plant health holistically - not solving piecemeal problems with quick fixes. 

Tuning CO2 is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for those running a high tech tank. For those of you at your wits end on this, my extreme advice is to throw away your drop checkers and pH probes... tune CO2 slowly over a few days by watching plant & fish reaction instead. At then end of the day, those are your targets - plant and fish health. Work towards this directly; learn to interpret when fish get distressed, and plants get adequate CO2. Never again will you be shackled to the mediocre standards set by mechanical instruments.

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## Gavan

wowwwwww. THAT is advice, guys. 


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## golfball

I like the slimming pills analogy...😊

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## vinz

David, please share some tips on observation while adjusting CO2. For fishes, its quite fast and obvious - gasping at surface. How long does it take in your experience for the fishes to react? Or rather how long does it take for CO2 levels to max out for the given BPS, and therefore we can be pretty sure that the fishes will be fine for the rest of the day?

On the other hand, plants and algae take longer to react or show effects. What do you look out for? How long does it take? What are looking for daily? How do you conclude that your fertilizing is OK, and its mostly CO2 issues?

For example, in my case the plants are doing OK, but dust algae keeps coming back. Hair or thread algae shows up occasionally.

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## Xiaozhuang

Fish don't gasp at the surface immediately. They generally will become less active, then mid level fish will start hanging out at the top level, bottom dwellers may panic, then lastly gasping at the surface. Healthy signs are; fish are lively and looking for food, fast reaction times for fast fish, males flare/chase females, good coloration. How long till CO2 saturation depends on tank dimensions and CO2 injection methodology (video shows why BPS should not be used as a measuring unit); it can take anywhere from half hour to 2 hours. If you want your fish to be absolutely safe, tune CO2 levels at night, when the lights are off. This is when plant/bacteria/fish all take in O2 and produce CO2; if your CO2 levels don't harm fish at night, it'll be safe for sure in the day, even if your plants are not photosynthesizing/producing O2 well due to other reasons. Additional O2 through surface agitation/sump usage makes a *big* difference in how high you can tune your CO2. This is covered in the video... It is never necessary to tune CO2 so high as to diminish fish activity level. Sometimes, the smartest thing is actually to use less light - growth rates slow, and there is less demand for ferts/CO2. And significantly less algae issues. Learn to get good coloration through fertilization, rather than just using as much as light as possible. Some plants do better in rich conditions, others look the best when nutrients are leaner, growth is slower and less light is used. HC can be grown under a $12 Ikea desklamp, in a tank 20 inches deep - if your CO2 is on point. 

Gauging CO2 levels by observing plants require prior experience. One can eliminate ferts from being a growth constraint by using a fat dosing regime like EI - which provides non-limiting nutrients unless you have an outlier amount of plant mass/light. This frees up the aquarist to concentrate on tweaking light/CO2. Having a good record sheet helps in observation & learning tremendously. Plants lag; so you can only interpret today's growth by looking back what happened in the week. Hardier, competitive plants such as Rotala rotundifolia, Hemianthus glomeratus, M. umbrosum will react faster to changing environment. In these fast growers, having progressively smaller new leaves can point to poor CO2. Significant stem elongation often hints at poor O2, flow, which results in ethylene buildup in the meristem. Once tanks stabilize, colored plants such as Ludwigia pantanal, R. macrandra, deteriorate in coloration quickly if fertilization doesn't upkeep with growth rates.


Example of a record sheet for a tank


Mini macrandra; sensitive to ferts/ demanding in terms of light/CO2


L. Pantanal grows very fast, and diminishes coloration quickly if fert dosing is not optimal. Grows 4-6 inches a week in high light, rich conditions


L. Glandulosa; left fresh from shop with low lighting/CO2, right after growing in fat conditions


Progressively smaller leaves on HC; sure sign of lack of CO2

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## vinz

Thanks David.

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## leehyeok

Hi david, just curious how do you measure the fertilizer amount to add for your tank and may i know what is the unit that is being used in your record sheet.

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## Xiaozhuang

Haa, it's Dennis not david, but in Singapore people just use my chinese name normally.

I measure it using a balance used to measure flour; can be bought at supermarkets/baking shops accurate to 1 gram. There are some accurate to half-gram, so get those if you can find them. Lab balances can be more accurate, but may be more costly. The numbers on my dosing sheet are in PPM (parts per million) , which is the same as Mg/L.

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## mercur1al

> Fish don't gasp at the surface immediately. They generally will become less active, then mid level fish will start hanging out at the top level, bottom dwellers may panic, then lastly gasping at the surface. Healthy signs are; fish are lively and looking for food, fast reaction times for fast fish, males flare/chase females, good coloration. How long till CO2 saturation depends on tank dimensions and CO2 injection methodology (video shows why BPS should not be used as a measuring unit); it can take anywhere from half hour to 2 hours. If you want your fish to be absolutely safe, tune CO2 levels at night, when the lights are off. This is when plant/bacteria/fish all take in O2 and produce CO2; if your CO2 levels don't harm fish at night, it'll be safe for sure in the day, even if your plants are not photosynthesizing/producing O2 well due to other reasons. Additional O2 through surface agitation/sump usage makes a *big* difference in how high you can tune your CO2. This is covered in the video... It is never necessary to tune CO2 so high as to diminish fish activity level. Sometimes, the smartest thing is actually to use less light - growth rates slow, and there is less demand for ferts/CO2. And significantly less algae issues. Learn to get good coloration through fertilization, rather than just using as much as light as possible. Some plants do better in rich conditions, others look the best when nutrients are leaner, growth is slower and less light is used. HC can be grown under a $12 Ikea desklamp, in a tank 20 inches deep - if your CO2 is on point. 
> 
> Gauging CO2 levels by observing plants require prior experience. One can eliminate ferts from being a growth constraint by using a fat dosing regime like EI - which provides non-limiting nutrients unless you have an outlier amount of plant mass/light. This frees up the aquarist to concentrate on tweaking light/CO2. Having a good record sheet helps in observation & learning tremendously. Plants lag; so you can only interpret today's growth by looking back what happened in the week. Hardier, competitive plants such as Rotala rotundifolia, Hemianthus glomeratus, M. umbrosum will react faster to changing environment. In these fast growers, having progressively smaller new leaves can point to poor CO2. Significant stem elongation often hints at poor O2, flow, which results in ethylene buildup in the meristem. Once tanks stabilize, colored plants such as Ludwigia pantanal, R. macrandra, deteriorate in coloration quickly if fertilization doesn't upkeep with growth rates.
> 
> 
> Example of a record sheet for a tank
> 
> 
> Mini macrandra; sensitive to ferts/ demanding in terms of light/CO2
> ...


Hi Dennis, thanks for sharing! Great tank by the way, breathtaking.

I'm fairly curious about your fert regime. What do you rose for iron? Dry ferts? Do you overdose iron?

I have rotala macrandra, AR mini but they are more of a copper color at the moment. I dose 1pump of tropica premium fert(all micros + potassium), and seachem iron and phosphorous twice weekly according to the seachem dosage.

Tank is a regular 60x30x36, fairly heavy planted. I don't dose nitrates for now as the tank has a fairly high bioload. 


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## Xiaozhuang

I dose iron through a mix of chelated Fe 13% EDTA and plantex CSM + B. Hmm I dose similar amounts of Fe, but probably more traces. But I probably have a richer substrate as well. Color or redness isn't just a function of Iron; it's just that iron chelates breakdown in the aquarium faster that other ferts so it is generally more under-dosed compared to say NPK. 

Different plants get redder in different situations, so there is not a universal approach. Rich fertilization/ high light/high CO2 will make some plants very red ; for example Ludwigia sp. red, AR minis, mini macrandras. Others look better with deeper colors under lean fertilization/slower growing conditions; Rotala rotundifolia, Ludwigia arcuata - this group also becomes significantly more colored under nitrate limitation (simulate a period of lean fertilization). All round good plant health will give reasonably good coloration; after this is achieved, you can tweak to either extreme end to get deeper colors.

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## mercur1al

> I dose iron through a mix of chelated Fe 13% EDTA and plantex CSM + B. Hmm I dose similar amounts of Fe, but probably more traces. But I probably have a richer substrate as well. Color or redness isn't just a function of Iron; it's just that iron chelates breakdown in the aquarium faster that other ferts so it is generally more under-dosed compared to say NPK. 
> 
> Different plants get redder in different situations, so there is not a universal approach. Rich fertilization/ high light/high CO2 will make some plants very red ; for example Ludwigia sp. red, AR minis, mini macrandras. Others look better with deeper colors under lean fertilization/slower growing conditions; Rotala rotundifolia, Ludwigia arcuata - this group also becomes significantly more colored under nitrate limitation (simulate a period of lean fertilization). All round good plant health will give reasonably good coloration; after this is achieved, you can tweak to either extreme end to get deeper colors.



I just started on the regime of fertilization as this is a relatively new tank. Will observe the red plants for coloration before deciding if i should increase the dosage of Seachem iron. I contemplated going EI Dosing as well, but the lack of KNO3 here in Singapore puts me off slightly. While most enthusiasts use replacements, i chose the lazy and convenient way out, to use the Tropica premium ferts. Being an all in one premixed fert, the iron portion should be slightly lacking, hence the supplement using seachem iron.

You mentioned a richer substrate? I remember you mentioning about peat before. Will probably explore that when i rescape the tank. The light is fairly decent in my tank, I'm using a LED with 36W, or 72 x 0.5W LED around 7000k spectrum. The other plants (rotala macrandra sp green), Rotala Wallichii is showing good growth, tips of the wallichii are all red. The Rotala Macrandra has retained its redness, though new growth is slightly lighter as compared to older growth, hence my belief that iron is slightly lacking. The AR mini was from Tropica 1-2grow, seems that it was earlier transiting to submerged form, the leaves had some holes and turned copper coloured. New growth is extremely slow though, so i will have to continue observing. 

Thanks for your advise!

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## vinz

Hi Dennis. So sorry to get your name wrong.

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## Xiaozhuang

> I just started on the regime of fertilization as this is a relatively new tank. Will observe the red plants for coloration before deciding if i should increase the dosage of Seachem iron. I contemplated going EI Dosing as well, but the lack of KNO3 here in Singapore puts me off slightly. While most enthusiasts use replacements, i chose the lazy and convenient way out, to use the Tropica premium ferts. Being an all in one premixed fert, the iron portion should be slightly lacking, hence the supplement using seachem iron.
> 
> You mentioned a richer substrate? I remember you mentioning about peat before. Will probably explore that when i rescape the tank. The light is fairly decent in my tank, I'm using a LED with 36W, or 72 x 0.5W LED around 7000k spectrum. The other plants (rotala macrandra sp green), Rotala Wallichii is showing good growth, tips of the wallichii are all red. The Rotala Macrandra has retained its redness, though new growth is slightly lighter as compared to older growth, hence my belief that iron is slightly lacking. The AR mini was from Tropica 1-2grow, seems that it was earlier transiting to submerged form, the leaves had some holes and turned copper coloured. New growth is extremely slow though, so i will have to continue observing. 
> 
> Thanks for your advise!


Leaves with holes might be a lack of potassium/CO2, not so much iron related.

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## vinz

BTW, found the link to the new nutrient calculator: http://rota.la

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Fish don't gasp at the surface immediately. They generally will become less active, then mid level fish will start hanging out at the top level, bottom dwellers may panic, then lastly gasping at the surface. Healthy signs are; fish are lively and looking for food, fast reaction times for fast fish, males flare/chase females, good coloration. How long till CO2 saturation depends on tank dimensions and CO2 injection methodology (video shows why BPS should not be used as a measuring unit); it can take anywhere from half hour to 2 hours. If you want your fish to be absolutely safe, tune CO2 levels at night, when the lights are off. This is when plant/bacteria/fish all take in O2 and produce CO2; if your CO2 levels don't harm fish at night, it'll be safe for sure in the day, even if your plants are not photosynthesizing/producing O2 well due to other reasons. Additional O2 through surface agitation/sump usage makes a *big* difference in how high you can tune your CO2. This is covered in the video... It is never necessary to tune CO2 so high as to diminish fish activity level. Sometimes, the smartest thing is actually to use less light - growth rates slow, and there is less demand for ferts/CO2. And significantly less algae issues. Learn to get good coloration through fertilization, rather than just using as much as light as possible. Some plants do better in rich conditions, others look the best when nutrients are leaner, growth is slower and less light is used. HC can be grown under a $12 Ikea desklamp, in a tank 20 inches deep - if your CO2 is on point. 
> 
> Gauging CO2 levels by observing plants require prior experience. One can eliminate ferts from being a growth constraint by using a fat dosing regime like EI - which provides non-limiting nutrients unless you have an outlier amount of plant mass/light. This frees up the aquarist to concentrate on tweaking light/CO2.



Hi Dennis, UA, Shadow
Since you guys seem to know about Co2, maybe you can tell what's happening in my tank. I can't seem to comprehend whats going on in my tank. So here come the details:

Tank: 300 litres
Substrate: ADA soil
Lighting via LED AquaZonic IP3.
Lighting period 6 hours

Filtration via 2 numbers of Eheim 20280. One 2080 attached to a chiller and the other direct to tank.
Inflow and outflow via glass lily pipes used

Co2 via injected Co2, using ANS brand Co2 regulator. Co2 into tank via 2 numbers of UP brand inline diffuser by using 2 way splitters.
The bubbles count is 7bbs for each diffuser, so that's a total of 14 bubbles for both diffusers.

Now this is where I'm not so clear. 

7.30am - my Co2 is switched on two & half hours before lights on at 10am.

10.00am - I see the DC is green at lights on (10am) and fish activity is good and active.

11.30am to 12.30pm - plants are "pearling". Fish is active. DC is green.

*BUT by 1.00pm, DC is lime green and most of the fish gasping until Co2 is switched off. Plants pearling more.*

3.00pm - Co2 switched off.

3.30pm - Fish resume to be safe and active.

4.00pm - lights off

6.00pm till 4.00am - small pump starts to create surface agitation to degas Co2 and for better O2 levels.

From observing the fish's response and DC colour change from 1.00pm to 3.30pm, can I gather that my Co2 level is not constant and is therefore the main cause of BBA which started appearing about 4 months ago.

What changes can I make to have constant Co2 and thereby eliminate / reduce BBA growth. 

Cheers. :-)

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## Urban Aquaria

Here is my take on it...

Drop checker readings are usually delayed by 1-2 hours, so the color measurement you see is the Co2 level 1-2 hours ago, hence when you see the DC lime green, the actual Co2 levels could already have accumulated much higher, this is especially so if you are running high BPS injection rates, it exceeds the tipping point and then quickly goes on to "overdose" mode (the effects are much faster compared to a lower BPS setup)... which is likely why your fishes are gasping at the water surface at 1pm. The Co2 levels crossed the safe threshold for those fishes at that timing. Some fishes are more sensitive to higher Co2 levels than others.

When you see some of your fishes gasping like that during the Co2 injection period, its an indication to fine tune and adjust the BPS injection rate and schedule so that the Co2 levels stay optimal yet still safe for the fishes (at this moment it is peak levels are higher than what those fishes can tolerate). You are already very close to achieving the right settings, it just requires just abit further fine tuning to strike the nice balance.

As for the consistency in Co2 levels, i guess one factor could be your running of a pump during night time which increases surface agitation to off-gas the Co2, the next day the Co2 levels will have to start from a low level so you need to inject more Co2 to build it up again, which probably creates an up and down curve. 

Not sure if that has any cause or effect on BBA though... many planted tank keepers also practice increasing aeration during night time (even the display tanks at ADA gallery also do that too), yet BBA doesn't seem to be a big issue for them. Maybe it could be other causes.

In my case, i tune my BPS and injection schedule as per normal so that the drop checker is maintained at lime green color during lights on, but i don't do anything to off-gas the Co2 during night time, so the drop checker still stays green to dark green throughout the night (my fishes and shrimps are still okay as the water has already been well oxygenated by the pearling plants during the day, at night they rest and require less oxygen anyways)... the next day the Co2 injection starts again but it only needs to add slight amounts to the existing Co2 levels, it doesn't have to build it up all the way from low levels again, so the Co2 levels stay relatively constant with less up and downs.

With this kind of setup, i use less Co2 because my BPS injection rate doesn't need to be tuned at high counts just to keep rebuilding it from low levels every day. 

One thing i've learnt is that its possible to have both ample Co2 and high oxygen levels in the tank (they can co-exist), and both are independent resources that stay in the tank until its used up, so its not necessary to pull one low just to push one higher.

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## vinz

Filet-o-fish, do you have 1 inline diffuser per filter or both on one? Are your filter outlets distributed to different parts of the tank? Are your BBA all over the tank or only in certain areas?

I discovered in my old tank that I could get rid of BBA by pointing my rain bar towards where they were growing. But they'll just grow elsewhere. I thought it was water flow or circulation. But later I read that it is CO2 distribution.

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## Xiaozhuang

UA gives a good explanation. I do a more wasteful setup ; I run surface agitation 24/7, and subsequently during lighting hours, I run higher CO2 than what would be necessary if there was no off-gassing. My tanks CO2 levels definitely fluctuate a lot between night and day. However, having a constant level in the day is the important part; CO2 assimilation is a resource intensive activity for plants, its carefully tuned and timed to the light cycle - so stability is important. Some plants react faster/better to changes in environment and are less affected - HM, Micrathemum umbrosum, etc. Typically you realize BBA attacks the slow growers - java ferns etc. When any algae preferentially attaches itself to plants - this is a good hint that the plant is stressed in some manner. Stressed plants release proteins and other organics as they reshuffle their biological structures to adapt to the environment, and this expunging of organic waste can trigger some algae spores to bloom. 

Some other questions; is this a new/recent setup, an established one that has been running stable for some time, or an older setup. Also, is it a tank predominately of slower growers ? water chance schedule/fert cycle are useful to know also

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Filet-o-fish, do you have 1 inline diffuser per filter or both on one? Are your filter outlets distributed to different parts of the tank? Are your BBA all over the tank or only in certain areas?
> 
> I discovered in my old tank that I could get rid of BBA by pointing my rain bar towards where they were growing. But they'll just grow elsewhere. I thought it was water flow or circulation. But later I read that it is CO2 distribution.


Hi Vinz :-)
I'm having one in-line diffuser per canister filter.
As for the outlets layout, please see the graphic below which I drew . A picture is worth a thousand words:-)

Good question. I always seem to have the most BBA growth on the red shaded area. In fact thats where it first showed up in my tank.

Just like you I once used spray bars. It was a disaster after my plants mass increased. My plants started to melt due to insufficient Co2. My Co2 bubbles rate was rocket high, (managed to finish a 5 litre tank in 28 days :Shocked: ) All of my plants just wanted to grow towards the surface and they were lanky and with thin stems. The lower leaves would just melt off. This is the period I was also trying out a Co2 reactor too. After that, BBA took a strong foothold in my tank. :Crying: 
On hindsight, maybe I was having too much surface agitation and degassing Co2 at a faster rate. It was thanks to the guys at Aquatic Avenue (Redhill), who convinced me to use lily pipes.

After a period 30 days with using lily pipes, all the plants just started to grow like crazy. Even now, I have to trim the plants every week. If not, they would just take over the tank. Also I have decreased Co2 bubble rate from uncountable to the present rate of 7 bbs per in-line diffuser. But sadly BBA hasn't subsided. :Sad:

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## vinz

Read that BBA won't go away even after you've fixed things. So you have to remove them and see if they come back.

Hmmm... Coincidentally, the BBA and poor growth area is at the tail end of the flow from your filter with chiller. The chiller probably cuts down the flow rate of your filter a fair bit. If you're up to it, consider swapping your filter outputs to see what happens?

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## Filet-O-Fish

Hi UA :-)
First of all, thanks for the concise and to the point reply. Kudos to you. :Well done: 




> Drop checker readings are usually delayed by 1-2 hours, so the color measurement you see is the Co2 level 1-2 hours ago, hence when you see the DC lime green, the actual Co2 levels could already have accumulated much higher, this is especially so if you are running high BPS injection rates, it exceeds the tipping point and then quickly goes on to "overdose" mode (the effects are much faster compared to a lower BPS setup)... which is likely why your fishes are gasping at the water surface at 1pm.


You are absolutely right. How could I have forgotten that!




> Some fishes are more sensitive to higher Co2 levels than others.


Yes, I do notice that my Diamond tetras are the first to gasp followed by my Congo tetras. However Rummynose tetras don't seem to mind the high Co2 but I do notice that they do go into slow motion mode. :Wink: 




> You are already very close to achieving the right settings, it just requires just a bit further fine tuning to strike the nice balance.


Sweet music to my ears. :Smile: 




> As for the consistency in Co2 levels, i guess one factor could be your running of a pump during night time which increases surface agitation to off-gas the Co2, the next day the Co2 levels will have to start from a low level so you need to inject more Co2 to build it up again, which probably creates an up and down curve.


In fact I did try on not having any surface agitation during the night for a week. The thing that I was apprehensive about, was the green / lime green DC colour shown throughout the evening and night. My thought was that since Co2 is present at high levels and is acidic, I didn't want it to have any negative effect on the beneficial bacteria. 
Apart from that my fish were happy and active even when the DC was green or lime green in the evenings.
The added bonus was that the DC was a nice green even before the lights were on and I actually had to decrease Co2 rate.

It seems that many "overseas" forums strongly advocate lots of surface agitation coupled with 10X filtration rate. A concept I fail to understand till today.




> One thing i've learnt is that its possible to have both ample Co2 and high oxygen levels in the tank (they can co-exist), and both are independent resources that stay in the tank until its used up, so its not necessary to pull one low just to push one higher.


That's what I'm trying figure out too. As rightly pointed out by Dennis in his Youtube video, when you have good O2 levels, one can actually increase Co2 even more. This way, both the fauna and flora are in good healthy condition.
When you see ADA tank setups, they hardly have any surface agitation at all and the surface is almost still during lights on period. This is what I tried to replicate in my tank. I have almost no surface agitation during the day and surface agitation during the nights. 

Can we rely on the O2 produced by the plants during the photoperiod?

Could I be having too much flow in my tank due to the two 2080 Eheim filters? 
It seems that BBA likes strong flow areas.
One very interesting thing I noted during my last water changes was that, when I removed a stone which was covered with BBA (placed in the red shaded area in the above posted photo), I noticed that the side which faced the flow was having BBA growth and the other side which was facing away from the flow was in MINT condition. I can't seem to understand on why this is happening. Why didn't BBA grow on the other side.

What I'll do now is maybe switch off surface agitation pump and observe the result.

In the meantime I hope Dennis, Shadow and other members can input their valuable points, the same goes to you, UA. :Smile: 

Cheers.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Read that BBA won't go away even after you've fixed things. So you have to remove them and see if they come back.


Trust me, Vinz. However much I tried to remove, that #$%@* BBA comes back. Trimming, Excel / hydrogen peroxide spot treatment....etc...etc.




> Hmmm... Coincidentally, the BBA and poor growth area is at the tail end of the flow from your filter with chiller. The chiller probably cuts down the flow rate of your filter a fair bit. If you're up to it, consider swapping your filter outputs to see what happens?


Yes, thats what I thought too. But you see the plant movement at that area is full of gentle movement which in indicative of good flow. Please correct me I'm wrong.
If the flow was bad to that area, naturally there would be no or less gentle movement of leaves. I do have to add that the leaves in that area are more prone to melting. How can you have good movement of plants in that area and yet have poor Co2 supply.
God! This is like some kind of voodoo thing. :Laughing: 

Good night. :Smile:

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## Urban Aquaria

> Can we rely on the O2 produced by the plants during the photoperiod?


If your plants are pearling during the active photoperiod, it is a good visual indication that oxygen levels are high in the tank and it should usually be enough to supply the fauna with sufficient oxygen to carry them over to the next day.

Though whether the oxygen reserves are actually sufficient to go around would also depend very much on the stocking ratio of the tank too, less livestock = less oxygen being used (no need extra oxygenation during lights off). Conversely, more livestock = faster oxygen depletion (may still need some oxygenation during lights off).

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## Filet-O-Fish

> If your plants are pearling during the active photoperiod, it is a good visual indication that oxygen levels are high in the tank and it should usually be enough to supply the fauna with sufficient oxygen to carry them over to the next day.
> 
> Though whether the oxygen reserves are actually sufficient to go around would also depend very much on the stocking ratio of the tank too, less livestock = less oxygen being used (no need extra oxygenation during lights off). Conversely, more livestock = faster oxygen depletion (may still need some oxygenation during lights off).


For now my fish count is only 10 Diamond tetras and 8 Rummynose. Algae eaters: 4 Otos, 6 Amanos and 40+ red cherry shrimps. Is this OK?

Every evening I see this on my plants. I guess this is sign of good oxygenation?

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Some other questions; is this a new/recent setup, an established one that has been running stable for some time, or an older setup. Also, is it a tank predominately of slower growers ? water chance schedule/fert cycle are useful to know also


Humm..some how I seem to have missed your early reply.

The answers to your question:
The tank was set up on July 2014.


My plant profile:
Monte Carlo  Foreground
Staurogyne Repens  Midground
Lobelia cardinalis small form  Midground
Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides'  Midground
Water Wisteria  Background - ( more of this plant in tank)
Alternanthera reineckii 'rosaefolia'  Background
Hydrocotyle verticillata  Background
Ludwigia palustris Background
Ammania sp bonsai - Midground

Water changes: 50% water change once a week.

EI dosing. Schedule as follows:

Saturday - Macro
3/4 tsp of KNO3 (equivalent dosed through liquid KNO3 from Dr.Malik)
1 3/4 tsp MgSO4
1/4 tsp of KH2PO4 (please note KH2PO4 dosed only once a week due to getting a 3 ppm reading throughout the week)

Sunday - 1/4 tsp Micro
( consist of : Fe 8.2%, Mn 1.82%, Zn 1.16%,B 1.05%, Cu 0.23%, Mo 0.15% )

Monday - Macro

Tuesday - 1/4 tsp Micro

Wednesday - Macro

Thursday - Rest day

Friday - Rest day, Friday evening do a 50% water change.



Algae issues:
No other algae in tank now, only BBA.
I used to have small spots of BBA on rock and wood about 4 months back. Once treated with hydrogen peroxide, it would subside or regrow after some time only. The growth would be confined to only certain small posts. Ever since I tried the Co2 reactor and changing of spray bar positions, BBA stated to spread more and in bigger patches. Now using lily pipes for the past 2 months.

I tested water 2 weeks ago. Phosphates was showing as 10 ppm. Stopped dosing KH2PO4 and after 2 water changes the level is now between 3 to 5 ppm. 

Cheers.

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## vinz

Would excess PO4 mean that something like else is limiting the plants?


What are you using for substrate?
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## Xiaozhuang

Can't say for sure; if plant mass is not large vs water column and lower lighting is used, fert consumption may not be significant enough to register a change even if plants were growing healthily. 

To answer Filet-O-Fish's comments on ADA setups ; the difference is that they use much less light (30-40 PAR at substrate), slower growth rates; and subsequently less dosing and CO2 demand as well. This is matched by a low bio-load and extremely heavy planting to start with; all the ingredients of a stable tank. The smaller size tanks, that have higher lighting levels are ramped up similarly; but it's always easier to get good flow/CO2 in smaller tanks

 *Filet-O-Fish*'s setup seems quite standard, low fish load, reasonable plant mix Hmmmm....

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## Urban Aquaria

> For now my fish count is only 10 Diamond tetras and 8 Rummynose. Algae eaters: 4 Otos, 6 Amanos and 40+ red cherry shrimps. Is this OK?


Based on the size and volume of your 4ft tank... that's indeed a very light stocking ratio and relatively minimal bio-load. 

You still have enough spare volume to add more livestock.  :Grin: 





> Every evening I see this on my plants. I guess this is sign of good oxygenation?


Plants look very healthy and pearling looks good... i'd definitely consider that a sign that the tank is getting well oxygenated by the plants.  :Very Happy:

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Based on the size and volume of your 4ft tank... that's indeed a very light stocking ratio and relatively minimal bio-load.You still have enough spare volume to add more livestock.


Yes, I know I can have lots more fish but I'm a plant guy.  :Laughing: 




> Plants look very healthy and pearling looks good... i'd definitely consider that a sign that the tank is getting well oxygenated by the plants.


Here's a photo taken a few hours ago before my weekly water change. 
Last nite I switched off the pump for surface agitation. This evening, I observed that the fish and shrimps were active even though the DC was showing light green. Slowly I'll wean myself from being dependent on DC color just as Dennis had mentioned a few posts back.

----------


## Filet-O-Fish

> To answer Filet-O-Fish's comments on ADA setups ; the difference is that they use much less light (30-40 PAR at substrate), slower growth rates; and subsequently less dosing and CO2 demand as well. This is matched by a low bio-load and extremely heavy planting to start with; all the ingredients of a stable tank. The smaller size tanks, that have higher lighting levels are ramped up similarly; but it's always easier to get good flow/CO2 in smaller tanks
> 
>  *Filet-O-Fish*'s setup seems quite standard, low fish load, reasonable plant mix Hmmmm....


Whats your opinion about my EI dosing amount? Is this ok or any tweaking needed?
My lighting is now 50par at substrate level. The lights are 25inches away from the substrate. 
Just for info, can BBA grow due to high lights? I know other algae do but what about BBA.

----------


## koky

> Yes, I know I can have lots more fish but I'm a plant guy. 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a photo taken a few hours ago before my weekly water change. 
> Last nite I switched off the pump for surface agitation. This evening, I observed that the fish and shrimps were active even though the DC was showing light green. Slowly I'll wean myself from being dependent on DC color just as Dennis had mentioned a few posts back.


Looks lush and very green!! Impressive pearling too!! Thanks for sharing.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Looks lush and very green!! Impressive pearling too!! Thanks for sharing.


Thanks buddy. Its nice of you to say that. :Smile:

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## Xiaozhuang

> Whats your opinion about my EI dosing amount? Is this ok or any tweaking needed?
> My lighting is now 50par at substrate level. The lights are 25inches away from the substrate. 
> Just for info, can BBA grow due to high lights? I know other algae do but what about BBA.


It grows in low light as well.. Hmm I agree with UA your plants look healthy. I don't think tweaking your nutrient levels will have an effect on BBA unless it changes/helps plant growth.... I see BBA in tanks with both very lean or very heavy nutrient levels

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## Filet-O-Fish

> It grows in low light as well.. Hmm I agree with UA your plants look healthy. I don't think tweaking your nutrient levels will have an effect on BBA unless it changes/helps plant growth.... I see BBA in tanks with both very lean or very heavy nutrient levels


Hi Dennis
Hearing from UA and you that my plants are healthy is a great compliment. I've always that my plants are so so only. That's way I don't even want to post a full pix of my tank. I'm still learning on placing plants in the right area to create a nice scape. 

So back to BBA, can I say that BBA in tank is triggered by fluctuating Co2 levels. Today I observed that after I decreased my Co2 bubble count slightly lower, after about 30 minutes, the bubble count was higher. I notice that my ANS brand co2 regulator is not consistent. Maybe I may have to go for a better brand. 

I've also noticed that I need to clean my in-line diffusers every month, if not co2 diffusion is slowed down due to clogged ceramic diffusion tubes. Maybe it's due to high plant growth and hence more organic matter.

BTW are you in the middle of producing you next video. Please don't make us wait too long. :-)
Cheers

----------


## Ingen

> Hi Dennis
> 
> Today I observed that after I decreased my Co2 bubble count slightly lower, after about 30 minutes, the bubble count was higher. I notice that my ANS brand co2 regulator is not consistent. Maybe I may have to go for a better brand.


Just had this happened to me on 1st May... I must have accidentally turned the needle valve while tightening the screw on the Intense regulator before I head out for dinner, and it wiped out all the fishes in my 1ft and only 1 ruby tetra and panda loach left alive in my 2ft tank... Hard lesson, some of the fishes had been with me for 2 years +...

----------


## vinz

> Today I observed that after I decreased my Co2 bubble count slightly lower, after about 30 minutes, the bubble count was higher. I notice that my ANS brand co2 regulator is not consistent. Maybe I may have to go for a better brand.


Has your cylinder pressure started dropping from the 1000psi "full" yet? If it is, then the output pressure might rise if you are using a single stage regulator like ANS.

I checked around local online LFS and e-catalogs of local LFS... all are single stage as far as I can tell. Didn't have time to go shop at the LFSes to see what else are not listed.

I'm waiting for my CO2Art dual stage regulator to arrive sometime this two weeks. They are having a sale at the moment and prices are pretty good for a dual stage. Shipping only GBP2.99 if you choose non-tracking and willing to wait 1 to 3 weeks for delivery.

Alternatively, search out dual stage from industrial sources here.

I was reading up on CO2 and came across a "why didn't I think of that" idea from Tom Barr for measuring uncountable BPS. Simply let the CO2 bubble into an upturned ml measuring cup. Read the ml of CO2 over a fixed time and use that as your measure. Troublesome, but better than gauging uncountable bps. Can't help for an inconsistent regulator though.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Just had this happened to me on 1st May... I must have accidentally turned the needle valve while tightening the screw on the Intense regulator before I head out for dinner, and it wiped out all the fishes in my 1ft and only 1 ruby tetra and panda loach left alive in my 2ft tank... Hard lesson, some of the fishes had been with me for 2 years +...


My god! So sad to hear that.


This kind of thing has happened to me also but not so tragic as yours. Once after water change, I forgot to turn on the tap control for my canister filter. I discovered it only after 12 hours when I noticed that the tank was clear with no Co2 microbubbles.
So for 12 hours there was no filtrationat all to my tank.

----------


## Filet-O-Fish

> Has your cylinder pressure started dropping from the 1000psi "full" yet? If it is, then the output pressure might rise if you are using a single stage regulator like ANS.


Hi Vinz,
No, tank is still 3/4 full. Really this ANS regulator is crap. The bubble count is not the same every day.




> I checked around local online LFS and e-catalogs of local LFS... all are single stage as far as I can tell.


Not much choice for good quality regulators here




> I'm waiting for my CO2Art dual stage regulator to arrive sometime this two weeks. They are having a sale at the moment and prices are pretty good for a dual stage. Shipping only GBP2.99 if you choose non-tracking and willing to wait 1 to 3 weeks for delivery.


Yeah. That's way I'm following your post to see the outcome.

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## vinz

> Hi Vinz,
> No, tank is still 3/4 full. Really this ANS regulator is crap. The bubble count is not the same every day.


Meaning its at 750psi? Or 3/4 into your usual usage duration?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Meaning its at 750psi? Or 3/4 into your usual usage duration?


Re-checked just now, it's still at 1000 psi.

----------


## Filet-O-Fish

> I was reading up on CO2 and came across a "why didn't I think of that" idea from Tom Barr for measuring uncountable BPS. Simply let the CO2 bubble into an upturned ml measuring cup. Read the ml of CO2 over a fixed time and use that as your measure. Troublesome, but better than gauging uncountable bps. Can't help for an inconsistent regulator though.


That's one way possible also. Never thought about that.

Anyway, what I do is take a shot of the bubble counters using my iPhone 6 which comes with slow motion video capture function ( and I'm sure Androids have the function too).
You need a stopwatch but in my case, I used a spare iPhone 4.
Place a torch light facing the bubble counter just like in the video. I tried without the torch light but the final video was too dark to count the bubbles.
Take a video for about 1 minutes and try to keep the camera as still as possible ( using a tripod will give better results).

Then you play the final video in slow motion on the phone and count the bubbles to your heart's content. 
Just to be sure, you can show it to your family members and ask them to count too ( humm.....can become a family bonding activity :Laughing: )

Like in my case, Co2 bubble count was between 6 to 7 BBS in each counter. 
In the video below, after the 45 seconds time mark, you can see the actual speed of the bubbles in real time . Do you think you can count them?  :Grin: 

Hope you give it a try and find it useful.
Cheers.

P.S. In my rush to upload into my brand new ( 30 minutes old) Youtube channel, this clip has no sound and a bit of error in the spelling of words.  :Opps:

----------


## Filet-O-Fish

OK something is happening in my tank but don't know what's causing it. During the past 1 week, I notice BBA is growing at a faster rate than before.Now they can be found in small patches all over the tank and even on glass panel. 
I'm really worried by this.
I've placed 2 Co2 drop checkers on opposite side of the tank and both are showing lime green. Saw some fish gasping.

As for changes made to my tank for the past 1 week.
1. Installed lily pipes as my inflow. Previous setup using Eheim green pipes.
2. Two pieces of BorneoWild Minerock medium sized into tank. 

No changes to:
Lights
Fertilizers
Position of outflow pipes

Anything I can do?
Thanks.

----------


## vinz

Any changes in water temperature due to the increasingly hot weather?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Urban Aquaria

> OK something is happening in my tank but don't know what's causing it. During the past 1 week, I notice BBA is growing at a faster rate than before.Now they can be found in small patches all over the tank and even on glass panel. 
> I'm really worried by this.
> I've placed 2 Co2 drop checkers on opposite side of the tank and both are showing lime green. Saw some fish gasping.
> 
> As for changes made to my tank for the past 1 week.
> 1. Installed lily pipes as my inflow. Previous setup using Eheim green pipes.
> 2. Two pieces of BorneoWild Minerock medium sized into tank. 
> 
> No changes to:
> ...


Wow, this BBA issue in your tank is really persistent... the algae could be so established in your tank that whatever you do, they will still keep appearing.

Guess it might be time to do tank-wide chemical warfare, shift all livestock to a temporary holding tank, then bomb H2O2 + Excel "One-Two Punch"!  ::smt071:

----------


## Xiaozhuang

> Any changes in water temperature due to the increasingly hot weather?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


He has a chiller I think. Some other questions; has your bubble counter stabilize yet ? It can take plants awhile to adapt to a given level
I went back to read some details on the tank; if it's been setup for a long time, is there a lot of organic waste buildup in the upper layer of the sediment, and have you done light vacuum on it before? 
Is there over-crowding of old growth ? Do new shoot tips have space to grow and are actively doing so - meaning that pruning needs and is done regularly ?
Maybe unrelated but what kind of Fe/trace mix are you using - the copper levels seem very high relative to Fe

----------


## Filet-O-Fish

> Any changes in water temperature due to the increasingly hot weather?


Hi
I think there's no chance for that as I use a chiller set at 25c.

----------


## Filet-O-Fish

> Wow, this BBA issue in your tank is really persistent... the algae could be so established in your tank that whatever you do, they will still keep appearing.Guess it might be time to do tank-wide chemical warfare, shift all livestock to a temporary holding tank, then bomb H2O2 + Excel "One-Two Punch"!


Oh god! UA I had hopped that you wouldn't say that. What is this 1-2-punch?

I was thinking I had only one option and that is:

1. Return the fish/shrimps/snails to LFS ( as I don't have a tank big enough to house the fish (4 Otos, 10 Diamond Tetras, 8 Rummynose, 20 Cardinal Tetras, 40-50 RCS).
2. Bombard the tank with AlgaExit since no living things in tank.
3. Get the tank stable ( I don't know how long it may take) and then add fish later.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> Oh god! UA I had hopped that you wouldn't say that. What is this 1-2-punch?


You can read about the method in this thread: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=203684

There is also a good example of "H2O2 nuke treatment" done locally by aquarius for his BBA infested tank: http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...028#post773028

Those are indeed drastic measures, but they seem to work. I guess for really persistent algae issues, sometimes it's better to just get rid of it once and for all.

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## Filet-O-Fish

Hi Dennis,




> has your bubble counter stabilize yet ? It can take plants a while to adapt to a given level


I was using 2 in-line diffusers. 
One an Intense brand and another UP brand. 
I found the UP brand to be so good in quality that I had replaced the Intense brand with another UP brand diffuser. I had to do some tweaking to get the Co2 levels but the plants grew much better. 
The photos of my plants with all that pearling was taken at that time.( please refer to post #84 in this thread)





> I went back to read some details on the tank; if it's been setup for a long time, is there a lot of organic waste buildup in the upper layer of the sediment, and have you done light vacuum on it before?


I clean my 2 external canisters ( Eheim 2080) once one month.
As for light vacuuming, I do it during once a week when doing water change. Since my plant mass is high, I try to do it where ever my cleaner can reach.





> Maybe unrelated but what kind of Fe/trace mix are you using - the copper levels seem very high relative to Fe


My Micro consist of : Fe 8.2%, Mn 1.82%, Zn 1.16%,B 1.05%, Cu 0.23%, Mo 0.15% )
Before 2 weeks ago, dosage was 1/4 tsp dosed 2 time a week.
My current dose is 1/4 + 1/8 teaspoon.
After this new dosage, my red plants (Ludwigia palustris & Alternanthera reineckii 'rosaefolia) have become more red and are growing taller. Previously it used to be copper colour.

Do you think copper is high?




> Is there over-crowding of old growth ? Do new shoot tips have space to grow and are actively doing so - meaning that pruning needs and is done regularly ?


I just took a photo of the tank a few minutes ago. I will do water change and trimming tomorrow.
I'm intending to take off the carpet plants ( monte carlo) as BBA is showing up on it also.
The ORANGE shaded area is the one with the most BBA growth.

Please excuse the messy scape. I'm constantly fighting BBA that I can't focus on scaping.

BBA growth has been the same for the past 4 months, only now it is showing up on different places.

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## Filet-O-Fish

Just to give idea of the damage BBA has caused to my tank.
This is my tank before and after BBA attack.

Come to think of it, my tank is a tough fighter. When compared with Jan'2015 and now, it has improved so much. If only BBA can be controlled.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> You can read about the method in this thread: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=203684
> 
> There is also a good example of "H2O2 nuke treatment" done locally by aquarius for his BBA infested tank: http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...028#post773028
> 
> Those are indeed drastic measures, but they seem to work. I guess for really persistent algae issues, sometimes it's better to just get rid of it once and for all.


Hi UA,
Thanks for the links. Please take a look at my reply above to Dennis with photos and let me know your feedback. Thank you so much.

BTW when you say " *it's better to just get rid of it once and for all*.", can BBA be gotten rid off once and for all? Can't it come back if there is Co2 problems again?

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## Urban Aquaria

> Hi UA,
> Thanks for the links. Please take a look at my reply above to Dennis with photos and let me know your feedback. Thank you so much.
> 
> BTW when you say " *it's better to just get rid of it once and for all*.", can BBA be gotten rid off once and for all? Can't it come back if there is Co2 problems again?


From my experience, i have bought plants that came with visible BBA coating their leaves and managed to completely clear it all away before introduction to my tanks.

I basically dipped the BBA infected plants into a container of water with concentrated dosage of H2O2 (let it fizzle for a few minutes), then put them into another container of water with overdose of AlgExit + Excel (soak for 2-3 days), as the BBA die off i then transfer the plant into a quarantine tank whereby the resident cherry shrimps eat up the remaining dead BBA and clean up the plant. Once the plant is clean, i then transfer it to plant in my main tanks.

Its like the "One-Two Punch" treatment, but in a smaller scale and only focused on treating the affected plants.

So far those "cured" plants and the tanks they are in have not exhibited any BBA issues, even in the low-tech ones without any Co2 injection or excel dosing... so its possible to clear BBA completely. It doesn't matter if nutrients are high or low or Co2 is stable or not, if BBA is totally eradicated from plants and the tank environment, it will not appear again.

BBA is an introduced algae, it has to be brought in by infected plants or hardscape... thats why some tanks with the best conditions still get it, while other tanks even with terrible conditions never get it at all.

It is indeed more difficult to get rid of BBA once it appears and establishes in a tank, since bits of it already spread to everything, including the filter bio-media and attached equipments... so the only way to get rid of it is to do the treatment procedure for the entire tank (and everything connected to it).

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## vinz

Stumbled across an interesting fertilisation and algae control method that I have not heard of.

Discription of Method: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...s-summary.html

Discussion: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...iscussion.html

Quite long and I'm still reading, but I found some interesting information. Will need time to digest.

~ Sent via Tapatalk ~

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## Xiaozhuang

> So far those "cured" plants and the tanks they are in have not exhibited any BBA issues, even in the low-tech ones without any Co2 injection or excel dosing... so its possible to clear BBA completely. It doesn't matter if nutrients are high or low or Co2 is stable or not, if BBA is totally eradicated from plants and the tank environment, it will not appear again.


I've introduced plants with BBA into my tanks before (mild cases) and they disappear by themselves over time (weeks) without interference, same for plants that I bought from the store with hair algae etc so I never did bother dipping my plants. However, if BBA is everywhere, a nuke/restart sequence will be a faster cure. Dipping to remove spores/visible algae does work as a concept if done consistently - there are many ways to manage algae in that sense. 

*Filet-O-Fish* 's tank is an interesting study. Overall plant health looks okay though the tank does look much better in sept, the more recent pics lack coloration brought about by robust growth - and much more compact; did you change the lights or something? The limnophila aromatica in the recent pic looks very green compared to before, with elongated internodes. The lobelia also elongates quite a lot. Hmm... 

One thing about substrate vac is that I think it should be done once in a very long while, but if you disturb it every week it kicks up ammonia/organic matter which I find gives rise to algae spores blooming. Definitely recommend not disturbing it every week. The effect is significant.

If you give me an email I can send you a research paper on BBA; there are no quick answers in there but since it's a major issues here might as well read up more on it

Side note on copper; yes the amount does seem very high in proportion to Fe... it suggests the origin of the fert is based on terrestrial fertilizer rather than being designed inherently for aquatic use. Copper has the same toxicity to aquatic animals/plants as does mercury to terrestrial animals; many of the anti-algae products out there utilize copper as an active ingredient. It is part of standard trace mix for plants, but only a miniscule amount is needed.

----------


## Xiaozhuang

> Stumbled across an interesting fertilisation and algae control method that I have not heard of.
> 
> Discription of Method: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...s-summary.html
> 
> Discussion: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...iscussion.html
> 
> Quite long and I'm still reading, but I found some interesting information. Will need time to digest.
> 
> ~ Sent via Tapatalk ~


I've tried this actually, and it does seem to work as described. The rebuttals to it are also as interesting though

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## Filet-O-Fish

Hi UA,




> From my experience, i have bought plants that came with visible BBA coating their leaves and managed to completely clear it all away before introduction to my tanks.


I'm now goint to get the Tropica's 1-2 plants as they're pest and algae free. I remember when I bought all my plants from a LFS in Yishun area, the very next 3 to 4 days later, I got BBA on my wood. I also got tons of pond snails and as a added bonus 6 to 8 damselfly nymphs. At that BBA was my last worry. I was fighting these pests.





> I basically dipped the BBA infected plants into a container of water with concentrated dosage of H2O2 (let it fizzle for a few minutes), then put them into another container of water with overdose of AlgExit + Excel (soak for 2-3 days), as the BBA die off i then transfer the plant into a quarantine tank whereby the resident cherry shrimps eat up the remaining dead BBA and clean up the plant. Once the plant is clean, i then transfer it to plant in my main tanks.


Great tip. I've note of this. Thanks. :-)




> Its like the "One-Two Punch" treatment,


Read the whole link for this process. Seems kind of easy to do.* Before I try this method, any tips or precautions to take note of?*




> So far those "cured" plants and the tanks they are in have not exhibited any BBA issues, even in the low-tech ones without any Co2 injection or excel dosing... so its possible to clear BBA completely. It doesn't matter if nutrients are high or low or Co2 is stable or not, if BBA is totally eradicated from plants and the tank environment, it will not appear again.


So far I have heard about this only from you. I glad to know that once its out, its totally out.




> It is indeed more difficult to get rid of BBA once it appears and establishes in a tank, since bits of it already spread to everything, including the filter bio-media and attached equipments... so the only way to get rid of it is to do the treatment procedure for the entire tank (and everything connected to it).


Last nite while doing PWC, I notice BBA patches coming off easily with little effort. Maybe this is a good sign? But I'm not taking any chances.
I have had many occasions, where the BBA would turn pinkish on its own but it would grow on different places and even bigger.

But I can safely say my tank is nowhere as bad as aquarius's in this forum. That guys has lots guts to fight on such a huge level.

Cheers. :-)

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Stumbled across an interesting fertilisation and algae control method that I have not heard of.
> 
> Discription of Method: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...s-summary.html
> 
> Discussion: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...iscussion.html
> 
> Quite long and I'm still reading, but I found some interesting information. Will need time to digest.


Hi Vinz,
Thank you so much for the link. The article really blew my mind when I read it. It has managed to reset my view of algae control and fertilization.
Take Care. :-)

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## Filet-O-Fish

Hi Dennis :-)
Thanks for your insightful reply.



> *Filet-O-Fish* 's tank is an interesting study. Overall plant health looks okay though the tank does look much better in sept, the more recent pics lack coloration brought about by robust growth - and much more compact; did you change the lights or something?


I'm still using AquaZonic IP3 LED lights. I have set it at 50% light intensity. In the Sept 2014 photo, I had used 100% of intensity and all plants doing very well. Ever since Sept due to BBA, I've been having the light at 50%.
I think I must have mentioned this before, the trouble all started when I tried a Co2 reactor. That's when BBA really grew bigger. Before that it was hardly noticeable and very much under control. 





> The limnophila aromatica in the recent pic looks very green compared to before, with elongated internodes. The lobelia also elongates quite a lot. Hmm...


Could this be related to the 50% light, since the plants you mentioned above are high light plants? Also my Hygrophila difformis's leaves are lobed in appearance, instead of pinnate.





> One thing about substrate vac is that I think it should be done once in a very long while, but if you disturb it every week it kicks up ammonia/organic matter which I find gives rise to algae spores blooming. Definitely recommend not disturbing it every week. The effect is significant.


Thanks for this tip. I had always thought that weekly vacuuming was necessary. I guess this is where shrimps help in cleaning this substrate.




> Side note on copper; yes the amount does seem very high in proportion to Fe...


I got the traces from a planted tank website in UK. 
Dennis, can this be the reason why my shrimps are dying at a fast rate, especially my Amano shrimps. Recently I lost 20 of them within 1 months.

If I want to change my Trace, where do you suggest I get my supplies from. 
The only place I know of is Lush Gro (Dr.Malick's). I saw this trace for planted tank at their website. I think they're selling each mineral at 100 grams each.
http://www.singaporehydroponics.com/...d=70&Itemid=76

_Package Deals for Planted Tank Enthusiastics_ 
_L3 HPC - Package Deal 3_

_Trace Elements Pack for Plants_ 
_contains 100 g each of:_
_ZnSO4 (Zinc sulfate)_
_CuSO4(Copper(II) sulfate)_
_Fe-EDTA 13% Fe(Iron)_
_MnSO4(Manganese(II) sulfate)_

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## Xiaozhuang

That trace mix won't work for planted tanks... Hmm I think the Lushgro micros liquid can work, but I'm not sure of the exact proportions of that mix. I use plantex CSM + B dry powder that is available from the US very cheaply. It has less than half the copper compared to your trace mix and people already make noise - I think on fast growing tanks, the high uptake rate of plants can mitigate the effect of having elevated copper levels, but shrimps can be quite sensitive to it

I don't think decreasing light will help mitigate BBA; I've seen plenty of low light tanks have it. On the other hand, neither does having excessive light cause it to bloom more often.

You don't have to abandon your current trace mix. Just buy chelated Fe powder to mix it with, so that by proportion you have higher Fe levels but lower trace levels. The hydroponics shop sells Fe EDTA 13% I think, which will work if you mix it with your trace mix in a 2:1 Fe EDTA 13% : your trace mix ratio.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> That trace mix won't work for planted tanks... Hmm I think the Lushgro micros liquid can work, but I'm not sure of the exact proportions of that mix. I use plantex CSM + B dry powder that is available from the US very cheaply. It has less than half the copper compared to your trace mix and people already make noise - I think on fast growing tanks, the high uptake rate of plants can mitigate the effect of having elevated copper levels, but shrimps can be quite sensitive to it
> 
> I don't think decreasing light will help mitigate BBA; I've seen plenty of low light tanks have it. On the other hand, neither does having excessive light cause it to bloom more often.
> 
> You don't have to abandon your current trace mix. Just buy chelated Fe powder to mix it with, so that by proportion you have higher Fe levels but lower trace levels. The hydroponics shop sells Fe EDTA 13% I think, which will work if you mix it with your trace mix in a 2:1 Fe EDTA 13% : your trace mix ratio.


Hi Dennis
Is this the CSM+B mix you mentioned:

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## vinz

> Hi Vinz,
> Thank you so much for the link. The article really blew my mind when I read it. It has managed to reset my view of algae control and fertilization.
> Take Care. :-)


Yea, its giving me some enlightenment too. Haven't had a lot of time to read, so still only at page 14. Pity that the DrPez.net links are broken. I found DrPez.org, but the links do not work by replacing .net with .org. Would be great to see his debate with Barr. On the other hand, if its in Spanish, a lot will be lost in translation.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## vinz

Hey, Filet-o-fish. Not sure where you're at with the MCI thread, but Christian Rubilar is of the opinion that BBA is typical with CSM+B usage. Just pointing out for you to investigate more... around post 181.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Urban Aquaria

> Read the whole link for this process. Seems kind of easy to do.* Before I try this method, any tips or precautions to take note of?*


Well, the "One-Two Punch" treatment is full scale chemical warfare in the tank... so there will be casualties, the weaker plants will melt and you'll need to have a suitable temporary tank to hold the livestock for a while until the main tank is stablized again.

It is a drastic measure, so only done as a last resort.  :Very Happy:

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Hey, Filet-o-fish. Not sure where you're at with the MCI thread, but Christian Rubilar is of the opinion that BBA is typical with CSM+B usage. Just pointing out for you to investigate more... around post 181.


Hi Vinz,

Thanks for tip. I'll look into it. The article is a good bedtime read. :Laughing: 
BTW, I have noticed that for most algaes, there's always some definitive cause and cure. But not for BBA.
I'm still searching for the exact triggers of BBA.
Local LFSs say my flow is too much for a 4 feet, my No3 and Po needs to be in a certain ratio like 16:2
Forums say, inconsistent Co2, not enough flow, fertilizers imbalance, etc...etc.
My head is spinning. :Knockout: 

But one thing I learnt from the link you provided is that one should look at algae as some form of indicator that says something in the tank is out of balance. Once we change the mindset, algae seems not too bad.

Cheers.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Well, the "One-Two Punch" treatment is full scale chemical warfare in the tank... so there will be casualties, the weaker plants will melt and you'll need to have a suitable temporary tank to hold the livestock for a while until the main tank is stablized again.
> 
> It is a drastic measure, so only done as a last resort.


Hi UA, do I have choice?
Anyway the article says that shrimps may be the most affected. I don't why but suddenly even my RCS are kicking the bucket. I strongly suspect the copper in the trace.
When I initially setup the tank, I was using ADA step 1 and K only. My RCS was reproducing like crazy but after I switched to EI, the population dwindled. I thought it was the Congo Tetras that were eating up the shrimps.
I could be wrong as I started EI dosing and introduced the Congos at the same time.

BTW, I wanted to ask you if dosing Hydrogen Peroxide will have any effect on the beneficial bacteria in filter media. Do you recommend removing it?

Cheers.

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## Urban Aquaria

> Anyway the article says that shrimps may be the most affected. I don't why but suddenly even my RCS are kicking the bucket. I strongly suspect the copper in the trace.
> When I initially setup the tank, I was using ADA step 1 and K only. My RCS was reproducing like crazy but after I switched to EI, the population dwindled. I thought it was the Congo Tetras that were eating up the shrimps.
> I could be wrong as I started EI dosing and introduced the Congos at the same time.


Thats the tricky part about dosing fertilizers, some people have no problems with their shrimps breeding like crazy with EI dosing, while some can't keep the shrimps alive in those environments... i guess its all a combination of different factors. The plant take-up rate of those nutrients do make a difference too, like what Xiaozhuang mentioned about how in fast growing tanks the plants can uptake copper fast enough so that it doesn't accumulate to harmful levels.




> BTW, I wanted to ask you if dosing Hydrogen Peroxide will have any effect on the beneficial bacteria in filter media. Do you recommend removing it?


I guess there may be some effect on the beneficial bacteria... though the end product of H2O2 and water mix is oxygen, so any negative effects is very short and it becomes harmless. Actually the water oxygen levels will increase alot during the treatment process.

Keeping the bio-media in the system during treatment would be better since the algae spores could also be hiding in them too, so it wouldn't be as effective if they were taken out and left untreated while still carrying the spores, since the algae may eventually come back again from infected media.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Thats the tricky part about dosing fertilizers, some people have no problems with their shrimps breeding like crazy with EI dosing, while some can't keep the shrimps alive in those environments... i guess its all a combination of different factors. The plant take-up rate of those nutrients do make a difference too, like what Xiaozhuang mentioned about how in fast growing tanks the plants can uptake copper fast enough so that it doesn't accumulate to harmful levels.


Humm interesting. I'm dosing EI with aim of achieving the below:
Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week

But since I'm having only 50% light intensity, the plants don't uptake the fertilizers in the water column. And if the same amount of fertz is dosed 3 times a week, there will be a build of excess fertz until a 50% PWC is done. In the meantime the shrimps have to deal with the excess fertz in the water. 
But then again, I've read posts where Tom Barr mentions that he has RCS in his tanks with very high ppm of No3, PO4 etc... with no effect on fish or shrimps.

I'm not taking any chances, I'll try to change Traces and see how things progress from there. BTW any tips on where I can get Traces in S'pore? 
I tried calling Lush Gro but after Dr.Malik's passing away, the new management operates on weekends and on certain timing only.





> I guess there may be some effect on the beneficial bacteria... though the end product of H2O2 and water mix is oxygen, so any negative effects is very short and it becomes harmless. Actually the water oxygen levels will increase alot during the treatment process.
> Keeping the bio-media in the system during treatment would be better since the algae spores could also be hiding in them too, so it wouldn't be as effective if they were taken out and left untreated while still carrying the spores, since the algae may eventually come back again from infected media.


Very valid point you have there. :Well done: 

Cheers.

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## Xiaozhuang

> Humm interesting. I'm dosing EI with aim of achieving the below:
> Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
> Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
> Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
> Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week
> Iron (Fe) 0.5ppm per week
> 
> But since I'm having only 50% light intensity, the plants don't uptake the fertilizers in the water column. And if the same amount of fertz is dosed 3 times a week, there will be a build of excess fertz until a 50% PWC is done. In the meantime the shrimps have to deal with the excess fertz in the water. 
> But then again, I've read posts where Tom Barr mentions that he has RCS in his tanks with very high ppm of No3, PO4 etc... with no effect on fish or shrimps.
> ...


Yeah, the pic is of the CSM + B that I use. I'm very sure that there is no co-relation between dosing CSM + B and BBA. Too many of us use it/overdose it and have absolutely no BBA in our tanks across many years. The possible causation chain is that over-dosing CSM + B to the point that it causes toxicity or poor plant growth, which then gives rise to algae issues. Dosing dry powder can encourage this; as it is easy to hit a very heavy dose without thinking about it.

On EI ; my own view is that is that it is a very heavy dosing regime... most tanks with less light/CO2 can get away with less than half. To this point, Tom barr has always argued that dosing more doesn't hurt, and cover all bases, so might as well have a higher upper limit... Those of us who have results contrary to the norm should do adjustments and observe the changes though - ultimately tank response is what matters. Tank biology can be complex, and sometimes small changes can cause a cascade effect or tipping point.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> On EI ; my own view is that is that it is a very heavy dosing regime... most tanks with less light/CO2 can get away with less than half. To this point, Tom barr has always argued that dosing more doesn't hurt, and cover all bases, so might as well have a higher upper limit... Those of us who have results contrary to the norm should do adjustments and observe the changes though - ultimately tank response is what matters. Tank biology can be complex, and sometimes small changes can cause a cascade effect or tipping point.


So how do you determine the amount of EI salts needed for mid light tanks? I'm very eager to know too.

For example, I tried to lower the ppm of No3 through limiting KNO3 but I ended up with lots of BGA. 
Recently because my amanos were dying, I decided to limit phosphate as I read in many shrimp forums that EI and shrimp don't go hand in hand. 
I was recommended by UKAP's members to dose 1/4 tsp of KH2PO4 3X a week ( that gives 3.23ppm per dose, If dosed 3 times a week = total 9.69ppm ! ) but I dosed 1/4 tsp (3.23ppm) for whole of one week as PO4 should be 3 ppm per week.
Ended up my plants started to melt very fast as though as if there was no Co2. I know for sure my Co2 was high due to lime green DC and gasping fish. The most evident was my aromatica plants. I also ended up with more BBA.

The thing that make EI attractive to me is that we dose to the maximum allowed and we just pay more attention to Co2 and light. In fact, I think this is what Tom Barr recommends.

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## Xiaozhuang

I've seen thousand and one tanks run on EI... with poor results. This has nothing to do with nutrients, but because the bigger part of the equation is tweaking light/CO2, planting methods, flow, substrate choices, plant choices etc. Nutrients are the easiest bit as plants survive in a wide range of conditions. People get fixated with it as it's something easily testable and tweakable. And they come to a lot of wrong causation links when analyzing issues, because they try to co-relate everything to nutrients. But nutrient dosing levels are actually very flexible. Its the other stuff that is hard to get right. Tom barr will tell you exactly the same thing. Unerringly the promotion of the EI method in recent years results in much fewer tanks that have nutrient issues, but because raised awareness of NPK & fertilization, there is huge upsurge in trying to explain things through nutrient levels - to no avail I would argue, that's why there are endless pages in forums where tanks run on EI but still have poor growth or algae issues. 

Even discussing growth is not so simple though; fast growth doesn't always give the best colors. Slow growth doesn't always result in algae - lots of low tech tanks are perfectly clean. Fast growth isn't always healthy growth; for example you can have fast growth with deficiencies... and slow growth isn't always unhealthy. Healthy, dense growing plant mass is generally a very good deterrent against all forms of algae though - there is enough anecdotal evidence of this that no expert argues the point.




> So how do you determine the amount of EI salts needed for mid light tanks? I'm very eager to know too.


You can approach it from both ends; when plants are growing well with EI, and you reduce dosage, and good growth continues, then you know a lower dose works. or you can approach it from the opposite side; start very lean, increase dosage as time goes on until growth speed tapers off. It does take a bit of observational experience though. And you need to fulfill the prerequisite of getting the other variables right - light, CO2, flow etc so that you can narrow cause and effect to nutrients; this is the hard part. If you use the same setup time and again, you build up an expectation of how plants should react in a certain setup. That is why some old timers will stick to their older methods that give consistent results; using T-5s instead of changing to LEDs, using the same substrate as they always have and not trying new ones etc.

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## stream

I've been EI dosing(KNO3 + KH2PO4) for 2 weeks with additional NPK/Flourish and trace from Seachem. My dosage regime is:

Daily
1ml of Seachem Excel
1ml of Seachem Iron

Mon, Wed, Fri
10ml of KNO3 (from Dr Mallick's shop)
10ml of KH2PO4 (10g mixed in a 1000ml of distilled water)
1ml of Seachem Nitrogen
1ml of Seachem Phosphorus
1ml of Seachem Potassium

Tue, Thu, Sat
1ml of Seachem Flourish
2ml of Seachem Trace

Sun
Change Water 50%
1/8 tsp of Seachem Equilibrium


CO2 is 1bps and I'm using a in-tank atomizer. My CO2 checker is yellowish green and my light is a Green Element 6x3W LED in a 31x31x36cm, 34L Nano tank. My IOS internal filter is aimed downwards and directed at the rising CO2 atomized bubbles. I have just started planting MC as my foreground carpet after replacing my HC. Yet, my S. repens and Lysimachia Nummularia 'Aurea' plants are showing browning on the leaves. Its like it is still starved of N and P. My MC is also showing signs of melting. I'm wondering if my light is too strong for my tank and therefore indirectly promoting rapid growth among my plants. Yet even though I think I dosed alot, it is still not able to provide sufficient nutrients for my plant. My photo period is 9hrs. I don't have much algae issue except the usual Diatom on my tank glass pane and some green algae on my dragon rocks.

If you agree with my analysis, do you think shortening the photo period will help instead of replacing my light? Any advise is most appreciated.

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## Filet-O-Fish

OK things are not looking good at all guys. :Sad: 
Today I was shocked to this in my tank. I know for sure it can't be Co2 issue as both DC on opposite side of tank shows lime green. Some fish gasping.

All the plants were doing great as of 2nd May but now 20 days later, plants are looking like this.

I'm really really confused on this.
Is this due to lack of phosphate or iron or anything else?

Can some kind sole tell me what the hack is going on. PLEASE.
Thanks.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> My photo period is 9hrs. I don't have much algae issue except the usual Diatom on my tank glass pane and some green algae on my dragon rocks.If you agree with my analysis, do you think shortening the photo period will help instead of replacing my light? Any advise is most appreciated.


Hi Stream,
I don't have much experience as other members, but IMO, the photoperiod looks too long. Maybe can shorten to 6 or 7 hours. Let see what others say.
Anyway, a photo of your plants will be more useful to diagnose.
Cheers.

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## stream

Thanks for your suggestion to shorten the light period Filet-O-Fish. I will shorten it to 7 hrs and monitor. I really admire those who can have lush green plants and intense red plants in their tank. Unfortunately, I don't have a DSLR with Macro lens to take pics of my leaves with browning at the leaves. 


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## Filet-O-Fish

> Thanks for your suggestion to shorten the light period Filet-O-Fish. I will shorten it to 7 hrs and monitor. I really admire those who can have lush green plants and intense red plants in their tank. Unfortunately, I don't have a DSLR with Macro lens to take pics of my leaves with browning at the leaves.


Hi Stream,
All of the photos I have posted here were taken by my iPhone 5 or 6 only and in fact most of the photos are edited in it also. I'm too lazy to use my Canon DSLR.  :Grin: 
Your photos don't have to be very clear as long as we can get some ideas. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Cheers

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## vinz

Stream, why do you use Seachem N, P and K with the dry ferts (e.g. KNO3)? Both are providing the same ferts.

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## stream

I know. It's just that when I see browning at the edge of my leaves which indicates that my N and P are not sufficient. I was trying to increase the PPM for these specific nutrients. Fine tuning if you will.  :Smile: 


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## Filet-O-Fish

Just an update to my post dated 22 May,
I think I messed up my dosing of phosphate all thanks to the testing kit which kept on showing 5 ppm everytime I tested. 
It's only when I noticed heavy growth of GSA on the glass did I realize that my phosphate level is too low.
Now I have started dosing 1/4 tsp of phosphate 3X a week. All the plants are perking up again. Leaf melting has stopped for all plants and there is new growth in Aromatic plant.

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## vinz

Good for you!

On my side, I started dosing Seachem Nitrogen and the GDA has lessen significantly. Started N partially due to nitogen deficiency symptoms showing up on my Java fern and partially from reading about MCI. going to continue the MCI nitrogen protocol (slightly bending the rules a bit) and see if i can get rid of GDA for good, or at least slow enough I can ignore glass cleaning for at least 2 or more weeks.

I suspect that in my blind pursuit to rid the GDA, my daily dosing of Seachem Trace and Iron may have driven a higher intake of N, but it took the plants longer to show me. I've cut my Trace and Iron dosage to alternate days for the time being. The daily Fe and Trace made a noticable difference for the Red Tiger lotus though, the leaves are much redder and bigger these days.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Good for you!
> On my side, I started dosing Seachem Nitrogen and the GDA has lessen significantly. Started N partially due to nitogen deficiency symptoms showing up on my Java fern and partially from reading about MCI. going to continue the MCI nitrogen protocol (slightly bending the rules a bit) and see if i can get rid of GDA for good, or at least slow enough I can ignore glass cleaning for at least 2 or more weeks.
> I suspect that in my blind pursuit to rid the GDA, my daily dosing of Seachem Trace and Iron may have driven a higher intake of N, but it took the plants longer to show me. I've cut my Trace and Iron dosage to alternate days for the time being. The daily Fe and Trace made a noticable difference for the Red Tiger lotus though, the leaves are much redder and bigger these days.


Thanks Vinz. :Smile: 
You're right when you mentioned " in my blind pursuit to rid". I did the same for getting rid of BBA. I did not enjoy my planted tank one bit. I was so fixated with balancing Co2 to control BBA and the more I read online articles (US & UK site), the more I was drawn into a vortex of fiddling with lights, Co2, fertilizers and flow.

I had the same experience as you when I increased my dose of FE, my red plants were deep red but now I have gone back to the recommended dose of 1/4tsp 3x a week as I don't want to lose my shrimps.

BTW, have you sorted out your issue with the Co2 regulator from UK? If you have any updates please post. I'm interested in getting the same model as you. :Wink: 

Cheers.

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## vinz

Yep. Updated after my previous post here.

If anything good came out of the MCI thread for me is at least a more structured way to tackle the algae problems.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Yep. Updated after my previous post here.
> 
> If anything good came out of the MCI thread for me is at least a more structured way to tackle the algae problems.


Can you post the link to the MCI thread here. I'm very curious to read it also. :Grin: 
Or you referring to your post #108 dated 15th May in this thread?

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## vinz

Yep, those are the two threads I'm referring too.

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## Filet-O-Fish

> Yep, those are the two threads I'm referring too.


To tell the truth, the same thread was the one that reset my way of seeing algae. It's not a nuisance but an indicator.
Thank you again for that thread. :Well done: 
Cheers.

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