# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Cichlids >  Apistogramma eremnopyge

## leeruisheng

My first pair of _Apistogramma eremnopyge_, many thanks to Andy.

Still very much a juvenile. Only about 3cm. Hoping to see more developments as it grows.

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## Quixotic

I think it's already an adult or sub-adult. The male paratype was measured at 34.4 mm SL.

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## leeruisheng

Just measured now about 2.5cm SL.

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## doubleace

Yo Wilson.. seem dark you never take with flash or you took him in the dark? This guy is still young and still got more development to become a beauty..  :Smile:  Hope to see more updates from you.. :Wink:

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## leeruisheng

Hi Andy,

Took with flash but the water is tinted. Yeah hoping that I can groom him well. Thanks.

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## FishSoup

*envy*

a wish-list apisto of mine!
good luck breeding these guys...  :Grin:

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## leeruisheng

Some development in the colour and finnage department. So far not bad la. And alright the other piece is indeed a female, after some initial skepticism. 
At the moment habitating together with a pair of _Dicrossus maculatus_. Guess who's fiercer?

But hopefully one day will get a quality specimen like the one Yorky showed from An-aquarium. That's quality stuff. 
For the time being, this pair is turning out fine. Truth is when I received this pair, I was totally dismay. But now  :Grin:  not bad not bad.

Without flash








I liked this shot.

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## jacian

Nice finnage especially on the last photo. Any pics on the female? I still cannot be sure if I got a female or not.

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## leeruisheng

How's your pair?

Came to a conclusion is female not because she has spawned. But based on their developments. Male as you can see made some real development in colours, finnage and body length. 

Whereas the other piece, since the first day i had it, there're really no developments till today.
No colour improvement, no real growth in finnage (thank goodness no development in dorsal), no extensions on the caudal, dorsal end does not extend to the caudal, not really growing in body length. It's almost exactly the same as it was just that now it's more nourished. Everything about it looks like a female but absence of black ventrals.

Female.

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## doppelbanddwarf

The male has shown quite some development since the first photo. Any success with the spawning?

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## leeruisheng

Nope. Just occasional chasing.

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## illumnae

very nice male! he's certainly developed alot since the first picture.

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## Jervis

Well done! What food are you feeding them?

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## leeruisheng

Thank yous. Food secret formula but will share. Mysis shrimp mixed with spirulina. If time permits will hatch bbs. Meantime also trying to let them accept Tropical Asta colour in hope of enhancing the redness.

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## tcy81

very nice specimen. Developing well.

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## genes

Turning out to become a good looking fish. There are a few other members that shipped this species back right? How are the progress of them?

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## jacian

Any benefits in feeding Mysis shrimp? Your male is definitely showing better development than mine.
Although my female did not have any colour/fins development, I still cannot conclude if it is indeed a female.

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## leeruisheng

I've no idea though. I avoid blood worms at all cost. Had more then often infected with internal bacteria. Of course I am not saying that blood worms are the cause.

I'm not sure what's the range of frozen food by Hikari. I've only thought there were frozen bloodworms, mysis shrimps and bbs. Blood worms are out and I'm 

hatching bbs so that's why mysis.

I think choice of food is down to personal preference.

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## leeruisheng

Just wondering how is eremnopyge pronounced?

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## Jervis

> Just wondering how is eremnopyge pronounced?


Erect No Pig  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## leeruisheng

Haha sounds dirty.

E-rim-no-fidge

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## Quixotic

Etymology of the name: The species is named with reference to the identifying mark of a dark blotch on the lower caudal peduncle. The name is a noun in apposition composed of the Greek _eremnos_ meaning black, swarthy or dark, and _pyge_ meaning rump or buttocks.

BTW, there is no right or wrong pronunciation, "pyge" is probabaly pronounced as pig.

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## leeruisheng

Here's the paper to help identify sex. http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2004f/zt00564.pdf

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## jacian

Now here are the photos of my Ap. eremnopyge, thanks to Wackytpt for helping to take the photos.

The male, more colour and finage development.


]

The 'female', as compared to the male, there isn't much development in terms of colour. However, does it look like a male by looking at the dosal?



Close-up look.

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## illumnae

i'm having problems with my Ap. eremnopyge female as well due to the dorsal showing some signs of being male-like  :Confused:  after looking at the pictures posted by ruisheng and yourself though, I'm quite consoled as my female does resemble both of yours  :Grin:  i guess this is one of the harder species to sex accurately?

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## jacian

If you compare the picture with the Biotope's female picture taken by Valice, see below, I will think mine is a sneaker male.  :Sad: 
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...02&postcount=1

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## illumnae

oops, and mine looks like yours!  :Crying:  the difference seems to be between "sharp" dorsal rays and "blunt" or "flattened" dorsal rays

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## leeruisheng

Jacian when was the photo taken? Strange le. How come your male is still developing quite slowly. Mmm but i say it is a female.

Retrieved from the papers,

" _In the females, anterior 6 dorsal spines with pointed lappets, posteriorly rounded, short; soft dorsal fin rounded, reaching little beyond caudal fin base_."

Anterior 6 dorsal spines with pointed lappets in layman terms means front dorsal pointed? Then why is it then that soft dorsal fin is rounded? I'm not familiar with these terminology. Can anyone shed some light? Thanks.


Think other way is see if they spawn.

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## jacian

Photo taken last week. Mine is not as nice as yours. Maybe I am not as good in raising them.  :Crying:  :Crying:

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## leeruisheng

Don't think so was going to say that your male looks better. More red coverage and signs of orangish belly.

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## Quixotic

As in the scientific paper noted, the first few spines of the dorsal fin on the female can be pointed. So the gender is not easily differentiated just by looking at the dorsal fin.

The better indication may be the anal fin. In the male, anal fin is pointed with the 3rd ray longest and filamentously extended to near end of caudal fin. In the female, anal fin is rounded or subacuminate (accuminate: Tapering gradually to a sharp point), reaching little beyond caudal fin base.

Looking at all the _A. eremnopyge_ pictures, the anal fins on the males are extending much more beyond the caudal fin base, while the females are distinctly shorter. The anal fin of the 'female' does fit the above key, so my educated guess would probably (never say never!) be a female.

My humble 2 cents...

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## leeruisheng

Yeah male will have extensions on the caudal but not for female.

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## illumnae

thanks for the tip Quixotic  :Smile:  i was spending last night staring at my female after reading the paper trying to get hints from the front of the dorsal, the end of the dorsal, the anal fin and the ventral fins based on distinctions raised in the paper  :Laughing:  my tentative conclusion was that i had a female (based on the rounded anal fin like you pointed out) but i'm still not conclusive, especially as the confirmed male spends most of his time hiding, only coming out when the female is in his line of sight.

i'm a lousy photographer so i can't post photos like ruisheng and jacian can for comparison haha. hopefully mine will be less skittish soon so that the male can actually discover the mirror and the female will stay in front long enough for photos!

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## Quixotic

> In the females, anterior 6 dorsal spines with pointed lappets, posteriorly rounded, short;...


You need to break up the sentence (at the semi colon), then you will see more sense.  :Wink: 

The dorsal fin can contain spiny rays, or soft rays, or a combination of both. The dorsal fin of this fish is a combination of both.

With reference to the *dorsal spines* (not including soft rays), the front (anterior) 6 [1a] are with pointed lappets (not too sure about lappets but they are flaplike structure) while the back (posterior) ones are rounded and short [1b].




> ...soft dorsal fin rounded, reaching little beyond caudal fin base[/I]."


With reference to the soft rays [2], the fin is rounded, extending just a little beyond the base [3] of the caudal fin.



Just a rough illustration using the picture of the male as it is clearer (let me know if there are objections to using your picture)...
[1] - dorsal spine ray, [1a] anterior, [1b] posterior
[2] - dorsal soft ray
[3] - base of caudal fin

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## leeruisheng

Million thanks Quixotic, for the clear explanation. 

I guessed lappets could be referring to the long dorsal. When they've matured, the dorsals will be long enough such that when they fold down, it overlaps over the body.

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## jacian

> With reference to the soft rays [2], the fin is rounded, extending just a little beyond the base [3] of the caudal fin.


Thanks Quixotic for the clear explanation. Again, if I am to take Biotope female for example, it is very obvious for the rounded soft rays. However, for mine, I find that it is more towards the 'male' look.  :Sad:

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## illumnae

is it any indication of "female-ness" if the fish in question isn't particularly interested in flaring at the mirror? all the males i've had so far flare at the mirror very enthusiastically while this female/sneaker eremnopyge is rather disinterested...flares sometimes but usually ignores or just chills in front of the mirror without flaring

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## illumnae

this is the best i managed to do. lousy picture and not so good colouration. do i have a female? rounded back of dorsal and anal fins and rounded caudal *fingers crossed*

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## Quixotic

jacian, which is why I said "never say never"  :Laughing:  and not to use the dorsal fin as an absolute reliable mean to sex them. Oh well, based on the anal fin as the key but given that the angle of your photo is not easy to use, it is really just guesswork.

illumnae, the anal fin of your fish don't seem to extend much beyond the base of caudal fin, so again, I would make the educated guess that it is a female.

Any other second opinions are welcome! (genes? valice?)

(Disclaimer: Never say never!  :Grin: )

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## leeruisheng

Female with first few rays pointed.
http://www.cichlidae.info/gallery/picture.php?p=1795

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## illumnae

never say never! haha. thanks for the affirmation Quixotic.

i just started Miracle Baby MQ4 treatment on my pair as the alpha male is acting worryingly. his poo is not white and stringy per se, but it is like black balls connected by the "white string" such that it looks like a string of beads. i also don't see him eating the NLS Thera+A that i bought (though the female loves it!) and the only time he appears from hiding is when he's attacking/chasing the female.

hopefully wild fishes aren't too sensitive to chemical medication  :Opps:

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## leeruisheng

Wild fishes are more hard to accept dried or frozen food. If still not eating, try feeding live food.

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## illumnae

it eats frozen bloodworms, and the female takes the dried food readily. reason i was feeding the NLS Thera+A is because of suspected internal bacteria, but since he won't take it, i commenced chemical medication instead

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## illumnae

what does a large black blotch near the tail (but still on the body) on the lower half of the body mean? my male has become more active after i started dosing the anti internal parasite, but is showing the dark blotch

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## leeruisheng

That black blotch is their trait characteristic on both sexes and not a sign of disease.




> Etymology of the name: The species is named with reference to the identifying mark of a dark blotch on the lower caudal peduncle. The name is a noun in apposition composed of the Greek _eremnos_ meaning black, swarthy or dark, and _pyge_ meaning rump or buttocks.

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## illumnae

haha i didn't think it was a sign of disease, was just curious why the male was showing it and the female wasn't, and the pictures didn't really show it either. maybe it only appears during stress, like how apistos turn dark?

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## leeruisheng

Ok. Not really. It appears in their normal colouration. Mine too not very obvious.

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## leeruisheng

More photos. Can't get enough of him. Addictive subject and now I'm inclined towards photography. A hobby to another.

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## illumnae

he's so lovely! hope mine turns out well too  :Opps:  your fish was what got me interested in this species haha

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## jacian

Here is another pic of my female. From this angle, it does look like a female to me, based on Quixotic's explanation.  :Smile:

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## illumnae

looks like a female to me too jacian  :Smile:  congrats on your (almost) confirmed pair! now for them to breed!

i really hope mine turn out like ruisheng's...his photos of his male are what inspired me to get my pair

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## illumnae

found another indicator of male/female eremnopyge in my random surfing during lunch hour:

http://forum.apistogramma.com/showth...ght=eremnopyge

Mike Wise should be rather reliable right?  :Smile:

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## leeruisheng

mmm.... no markings on the caudal. Mine is showing faint markings.

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## illumnae

hmm...i just went to stare really hard at mine and saw some faint markings too...jacian's pic shows some too  :Opps:

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## jacian

An updated picture of the 'female', now it seems to be a male already.  :Sad:

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## tcy81

seems like a female to me  :Smile:

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## illumnae

looks female to me too. ventrals ending before anal fin, short end of dorsal and anal fin. the only worrying thing is that the tail looks like it may be forking out but it's frayed so i can't be sure

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## jacian

Well, after seperating the male from it, it has developed much in terms of colour and finage. Below is the latest pic, anyone still think it is a female?  :Wink:

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## genes

Male. No doubt about that...  :Razz:

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## leeruisheng

Yeah male.

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## leeruisheng



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## dexter

nice nice...is the female the previous one or u bought new one

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## SCOPE

> 


bro, solid quality! swee swee!

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## Cacatuoides

Very nice male!! bought recently?  :Smile:

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## marle

very nice. managed to breed them? this species require cooler temperatures for the breeding results to be better.

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## ryo88

> very nice. managed to breed them? this species require cooler temperatures for the breeding results to be better.


Go Rio Itaya to catch them, free one.

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## leeruisheng

Hi guys, 

Thanks all.
Finally got myself a beautiful specimen.
This is a recent acquired pair. Not sure if they'll spawn but i just added a bag of peat.




> Go Rio Itaya to catch them, free one.


Is eremnopyge found only in Rio Itaya? This is a wild pair.

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## SCOPE

i guess if you use darker gravel, maybe you can able to capture the finnage coloration. Hope to see more pictures.

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## leeruisheng

I cant change gravel and i like this grey gravel. Will borrow a better camera and take better
shots when they're are still with me. But my water is peated so maybe a little difficult.
Thanks joe.

Another thing I like about eremnopyge is that they remain as colourful even when there's no mirror.

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## SCOPE

Nice prize fish! It is also one of my favourite

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## leeruisheng

More shots.

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## SCOPE

Very swee....look like a red Indian. i like the last photo esp.

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## illumnae

argh i am so tempted to get a pair too  :Sad:

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## Jitticus

Whoa, fantastic looking piece there! Would this be categorized under the bitaeniata or cacatuoides complex? I noticed the telltale black dorsal rays and the lyrate tail, but the facial markings are.. astounding!

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## marle

The beauty of Apistogramma Eremnopyge really grows into you. Very subtle. Nice.  :Well done:

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## illumnae

> Whoa, fantastic looking piece there! Would this be categorized under the bitaeniata or cacatuoides complex? I noticed the telltale black dorsal rays and the lyrate tail, but the facial markings are.. astounding!


Ap. eremnopyge is considered most closely related to Ap. bitaeniata

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## Jitticus

Thanks, Ilumnae.

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## iwishweallcouldwin

Very nice pair :Smile:

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