# General > AquaTalk >  Where do I buy African bullfrog in Singapore?

## cwc

I'm looking to buy an African bullfrog; there are two types and, to be more specific, the pixie bullfrog. 

Jurong frog farm do not carry them. Where can I find there elsewhere in Singapore? Where much do they cost?

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## icefire

don't think that its allowed in singapore.. most likely should be known as exotic pets... best look at AVA website to make sure that pets that you are posting to ask where to buy/want to sell are not illegal/banned in singapore as this country has lots of banned pets/animals as compared to other countries -> not very logical in my opinion.

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## cwc

> don't think that its allowed in singapore.. most likely should be known as exotic pets... best look at AVA website to make sure that pets that you are posting to ask where to buy/want to sell are not illegal/banned in singapore as this country has lots of banned pets/animals as compared to other countries -> not very logical in my opinion.


I knew this animal was not likely to be allowed. Today, AVA confirmed that fact. Are there any contacts of supplier who are capable of 'importing' them? I welcome anyone to drop me a text as to the source..

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## dkk08

Hi cwc, obviously you do not read the stickys we posted on this forum... since you know that African Bull frog are not allowed and in other words deem as "illegal" in Singapore why are you still asking for contacts of suppliers who can get them? You're either asking for a visit from AVA themselves and the next thing you know ACRES and the Razor TV crew will be all over your house or location in no time... are you looking for over night fame here?? 

This is a warning to you and to any one else looking for non approve pets in Singapore! Any one else caught asking in the open and has the intent to look for a supplier of such animals will be banned immediately!

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## cwc

> Hi cwc, obviously you do not read the stickys we posted on this forum... since you know that African Bull frog are not allowed and in other words deem as "illegal" in Singapore why are you still asking for contacts of suppliers who can get them? You're either asking for a visit from AVA themselves and the next thing you know ACRES and the Razor TV crew will be all over your house or location in no time... are you looking for over night fame here?? 
> 
> This is a warning to you and to any one else looking for non approve pets in Singapore! Any one else caught asking in the open and has the intent to look for a supplier of such animals will be banned immediately!


I thought AVA's regulations were irrational. Under their list of allowable animals, only 1 genus of frog is allowed. What's wrong if I have no intention to release the animal into the wild? It is, as I've claimed, meant to be a domestic pet. On an extension, this animal isn't categorically endangered or threatened.

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## Simon

No point convincing us, you should do so with AVA directly.

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## cwc

> No point convincing us, you should do so with AVA directly.


I'm not convincing the audiences here-I'm more likely frustrated. That won't be necessary. Special permits are granted only for wildlife enclosure and zoology exhibitions.

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## dkk08

> I thought AVA's regulations were irrational. Under their list of allowable animals, only 1 genus of frog is allowed. What's wrong if I have no intention to release the animal into the wild? It is, as I've claimed, meant to be a domestic pet. On an extension, this animal isn't categorically endangered or threatened.


Yes I understand your frustrations and your doubts seriously... I've been in your shoes before as I've kept so call "Exotic Pets" for more then 20 years! And trust me you wouldn't want to go against the law or AVA for that matter would you? There're many amphibians/reptiles that are not categorized as endangered or threatened e.g. Four line treefrogs (Polypedates leucomystax), Malayan Horned Frog (Megophrys nasuta), Spotted Treefrog (Nyctixalus pictus), American Green Treefrog (Hyla cinerea), Leopard Gecko (Eublepharis macularius), Bearded Dragon (Pogona vitticeps) just to name a few... you can go ahead and question AVA why can't we keep them even though they're not endangered or threatened... hack I can even give you the email to Ms Janice Yap (AVA Import/Export Officer) ([email protected]) to ask and challenge them yourself... 

But bottom line is there're rules and regulations everywhere... even in this forum! So once you've step over that line and deliberately do it again then you're asking for trouble... I'm sure you're smart enough not to make the same mistake...

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## felix_fx2

simon is correct. The strict rules are in place for a reason. Convince them not us.

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## stormhawk

I agree that AVA is rather draconian or inflexible when it comes to the importation of certain animals, even captive bred specimens like the Leopard Gecko etc, but there is no reason to argue with them. Many decisions that the AVA makes are not exactly based on proper reasoning at times. For example, they allow the consumption of the Malayan Box Turtle here, when it is an endangered species.

There was a point in time where I wanted to keep Dendrobates frogs, but given the laws and the limitations and requirements of keeping such frogs, I was not able to do so. However, there was a period about 12-13 years ago, where all sorts of exotics were easily found. I had a _Heterometrus longimanus_ female (scorpion), which produced young that did not survive in my care, and almost bought a Phelsuma gecko aka Day Gecko. Back then I did not think that I was breaking the law, but looking back, if I had known then I would not have kept them. The fine will cost you more than what you spent on the pet to begin with, let alone the possible jail time.

While it is perfectly understandable that you wish to keep something that is different, and have no intention of releasing the animals into the wild, the AVA will not be convinced of your intentions. In zoos and special exhibits, they allow the keeping of these animals because the parks are meant to educate the public, and given the best care possible. A petition to make AVA understand and allow herptile hobbyists in Singapore to keep more amphibian and reptile species can work, but only if you are ready to undertake this project. The only problem is, reaching enough numbers to convince them that yes, Singaporeans are ready for an expansion in the number or range of allowed species.

The forums has rules for a reason, and while we allow a proper discussion to take place, attempting to source for them via illegal methods is not the first step in the right direction. I understand your point of view, but let's face it. Until the AVA changes their mind, we are stuck with the RES and the White's Tree Frog as pets when it comes to reptiles or amphibians.

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## cwc

> I agree that AVA is rather draconian or inflexible when it comes to the importation of certain animals, even captive bred specimens like the Leopard Gecko etc, but there is no reason to argue with them. Many decisions that the AVA makes are not exactly based on proper reasoning at times. For example, they allow the consumption of the Malayan Box Turtle here, when it is an endangered species.
> 
> There was a point in time where I wanted to keep Dendrobates frogs, but given the laws and the limitations and requirements of keeping such frogs, I was not able to do so. However, there was a period about 12-13 years ago, where all sorts of exotics were easily found. I had a _Heterometrus longimanus_ female (scorpion), which produced young that did not survive in my care, and almost bought a Phelsuma gecko aka Day Gecko. Back then I did not think that I was breaking the law, but looking back, if I had known then I would not have kept them. The fine will cost you more than what you spent on the pet to begin with, let alone the possible jail time.
> 
> While it is perfectly understandable that you wish to keep something that is different, and have no intention of releasing the animals into the wild, the AVA will not be convinced of your intentions. In zoos and special exhibits, they allow the keeping of these animals because the parks are meant to educate the public, and given the best care possible. A petition to make AVA understand and allow herptile hobbyists in Singapore to keep more amphibian and reptile species can work, but only if you are ready to undertake this project. The only problem is, reaching enough numbers to convince them that yes, Singaporeans are ready for an expansion in the number or range of allowed species.
> 
> The forums has rules for a reason, and while we allow a proper discussion to take place, attempting to source for them via illegal methods is not the first step in the right direction. I understand your point of view, but let's face it. Until the AVA changes their mind, we are stuck with the RES and the White's Tree Frog as pets when it comes to reptiles or amphibians.


"Draconian" or "Inflexible" isn't necessarily the state I would ascribe as to the state of this agency. The foundational premise of AVA's objective has been to prevent the introduction of any species that would-direct or indirect, in the sense of being an agent of pathological or virulent transmitter-artificially disrupt the dynamics of our eco-system. The corollary as follows, however, is one that does not logically necessitates from their foundational premise. 
Supporting evidences extrapolated from their references of " List of allowable animals and food" serves only to corroborate as layer and layer of evidences in defense of my argument. If AVA truly wanted to impress upon the public as a caricature of "white in shinning Armour" then it shouldn't have given allowance for the entry of, as someone puts it, the endangered Malayan-box turtle or the shipment of shark-fin. 
Where was AVA in the equation during the Resortworld Sentosa-dolphin fiasco?

Prior to obtaining an official reply from AVA, foreknowledge tells me the pyxiecephalus adspersus would not be allowed to be kept due to its voracious appetite for insects and small rodent-sized mammals-although non-venomous and non-deadly. 

In principle, this would be a concern. In practice, however, preventive measures could be articulated by the agency itself to ensure owners do not turn errant. For the record, I am not a herpetoculturist nor an "exotic animal" love bug. I have strong aversion to many reptiles, amphibians and insects. And no, I do not psychological tendencies to keep something for sake of it being 'different'. The physiology of the pyxicephalus adspersus appeals to me. 

I would not waste mental resources dealing with AVA. If, producing a philosophical thesis in the argument for lifting importation bans changes their institutional regulations, then I would more than willing. The case, as it appears, seems to be implicitly an organization so intellectually paralyzed, to the effect of being intellectually irresponsible.

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## dkk08

Well cwc, it sounds like you're well educated and very articulate person, perhaps you can spearhead a petition or even an discussion with AVA on legalizing certain non endangered or threatened amphibians & reptiles... 

I know of one such person who's in the midst of discussion with AVA to legalize Malayan Horned frog and some other non endangered and non venomous species... I can point you to the right person and even the correct channel but bottom line is, sourcing for illegal pets on this forum is a big NO. You sound like a well educated gentleman, So I hope that you will not do it again...

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## cwc

> Well cwc, it sounds like you're well educated and very articulate person, perhaps you can spearhead a petition or even an discussion with AVA on legalizing certain non endangered or threatened amphibians & reptiles... 
> 
> I know of one such person who's in the midst of discussion with AVA to legalize Malayan Horned frog and some other non endangered and non venomous species... I can point you to the right person and even the correct channel but bottom line is, sourcing for illegal pets on this forum is a big NO. You sound like a well educated gentleman, So I hope that you will not do it again...


Intelligent, yes. Well-educated, I'm just a diploma holder who will be moving on to his overseas studies after a few more months of national service. I am not too encouraged on spearheading any petition. 
This reeks of cynicism but there is no probable reason to believe AVA would modify their irrational policy anytime soon and any discussions with them is plausibly a mirage. I'm just a simple rational guy who want issues to be made sense of. 
Even after a call to them this afternoon to clarify on the existence of any alternative permits to owning restricted animals-and while at that, declaring I do not as of yet possess the organism in question-the organization dropped me an email asking how long have I possessed the bullfrog-indicative of pure paranoia. 



ImageShack.us

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## jwuog

> Even after a call to them this afternoon to clarify on the existence of any alternative permits to owning restricted animals-and while at that, declaring I do not as of yet possess the organism in question-the organization dropped me an email asking how long have I possessed the bullfrog-indicative of pure paranoia. 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageShack.us



Sigh ~ what do you expect from a bunch of zombies?

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## jwuog

Anyways, as moderator said, this is not the venue to source for 'illegal' pets. But when there's a will, there's always a way, just not conventional. For example, one of my JC friends (many years ago) even kept a pet snake in an aquarium. My aunty had 2 alligators (or maybe crocodlles? – even longer years ago) in her bathtub (I believe she eventually donated to a farm after they grew too big for the tub)! So you know...

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## cwc

> Anyways, as moderator said, this is not the venue to source for 'illegal' pets. But when there's a will, there's always a way, just not conventional. For example, one of my JC friends (many years ago) even kept a pet snake in an aquarium. My aunty had 2 alligators (or maybe crocodlles? – even longer years ago) in her bathtub (I believe she eventually donated to a farm after they grew too big for the tub)! So you know...


I draw a demarcation when it comes to owning dangerous creatures. Huge or venomous snakes should never be considered as pets. Alligator? That's worst. The last thing you want is these reptiles infesting our reservoirs where water sports are a common sight. Don't be surprise if living cobras or piranhas are kept as pets. It happens. I don't intend to further contravene the forum's regulations, although, I do plan to source the frog elsewhere. I've some leads, hopefully, it'll lead me to my find.

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## stormhawk

If you're moving overseas for your education, depending on where you're headed, the laws are less restrictive. For the email reply you received, it's just another cookie cutter reply by a government agency that probably has a robot manning the computer. Auto-replies suck, at least to myself. What happened to the "human" aspect of replying.  :Sad: 

In any event, I can only say good luck in your hunt. These frogs are fascinating creatures, but hey, even the feeder frogs when fully grown, are fun pets...  :Grin:

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## cwc

> If you're moving overseas for your education, depending on where you're headed, the laws are less restrictive. For the email reply you received, it's just another cookie cutter reply by a government agency that probably has a robot manning the computer. Auto-replies suck, at least to myself. What happened to the "human" aspect of replying. 
> 
> In any event, I can only say good luck in your hunt. These frogs are fascinating creatures, but hey, even the feeder frogs when fully grown, are fun pets...


After writing in, AVA will now look into the matter as to the suitability of the African bullfrog within the tropical environment. They woul give me a reply in 3 workin days.

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## stormhawk

The Pixie Frog should be fine in our environment, given that it prefers high humidity. I believe AVA will be more concerned on the aggression level of these frogs and their possible threat to native wildlife. Do update us on their reply to this matter.

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## cwc

> The Pixie Frog should be fine in our environment, given that it prefers high humidity. I believe AVA will be more concerned on the aggression level of these frogs and their possible threat to native wildlife. Do update us on their reply to this matter.


I've made known to AVA the finely-tuned adaptation of these frogs to the tropical climate. It is also factual that these frogs hover on the aggression to the point of giving your fingers a hearty bite, but that's about it. I think the majority of the Singaporeans are so conditioned to cry murder over such small issue. The defense mehanism of most animal is such that they become aggressive upon provocation-even so, only as a last resort. Even the alpha predator would never risk a conflict with another alpha predator- the cost is often such that any injuries would be sufficiently severe to incapacitate thir ability to hunt efficiently. I'll keep this thread updated upon receiving a conclusive answer from them.

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## cwc

As expected, they persists in their regulation.

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## icefire

> As expected, they persists in their regulation.


hardly surprising as our agencies do have some in my opinion useless laws. until a passionate hobbyist is in charge of the AVA sector, i do not think that there are any ways to change the pets we are allowed to keep as they persist in maintaining old fashioned thinking.

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## cwc

> hardly surprising as our agencies do have some in my opinion useless laws. until a passionate hobbyist is in charge of the AVA sector, i do not think that there are any ways to change the pets we are allowed to keep as they persist in maintaining old fashioned thinking.


They're not old-fashioned. They're adopting the 'play-safe' mentality- typical of Singaporeans.

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## takaco

where to buy this
baddest-toad.jpg

 :Laughing:

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## stormhawk

I agree, some of the policies are useless and counter-productive, yet nothing ever gets changed because they're paid to toe the line and follow the rule book. People will still attempt to smuggle these exotic animals in, which is worst for the animals.

Then again, what do you expect from people that rely on automated email replies?  :Laughing:

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## icefire

> where to buy this
> baddest-toad.jpg


 haha! you got to buy from naruto, provided that he want to sell  :Grin:

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## takaco

They ban so many thing making people wanna exp the feeling having it. In short cockteasing .

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## Dartiends

> I thought AVA's regulations were irrational. Under their list of allowable animals, only 1 genus of frog is allowed. What's wrong if I have no intention to release the animal into the wild? It is, as I've claimed, meant to be a domestic pet. On an extension, this animal isn't categorically endangered or threatened.


They everything also don't allow one ma . Endangered cannot I can understand . For African bull frog I guess their explanation would be it released it might affect the native wildlife. Soo many if not all dogs also not native to sg . Then why can keep dog . Anyway just rmb here can keep only 1 kind of amphibian -green tree frog .

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## felix_fx2

How come frog need a summoning jitsu to get already :O don't summon wrong one and get slug ok? 

Back on something related.
Being neutral and direct, no offense folks whom are active hobbyist.

If you guys want can go on and try get them approved from Ava. Then say, alot of chatter from hobbyist but I've not really seen many go to the effort of getting them approved.

If you do go that far to get a pet, there will be zero doubt you are the type who will not after 3 months of keeping. Post in marketplace to sell or somehow "accidentally" lost them.

Talk is very very cheap sometimes.

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