# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Anabantoids >  Betta simplex "Type II" F2 now in Singapore

## Nonn

Hi guys,

Just to let you know that there are a few pairs of the above fish now with Jun. I'm looking for a few good homes for them. Please contact him at [email protected]. Please help me keep them fish going!

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## RonWill

> Please help me keep them fish going!


Nonn, how does the "Type II" differ from the original wild caught? I'm not into bettas now but in order for others to 'keep it going', it might be relevant to know the parameters/conditions when these were kept in your tank... ya?

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## RonWill

Nonn,
I did a forum search and there were some details in your response to the thread "*Fish from Bangkok, Thailand*".

May I suggest that only those who're familiar or more experienced hobbyists take up Nonn's offer. It is, afterall, classified as endangered species on IUCN redlist. When the species is stabilized, F3 and subsequent generations can be safely distributed.

Again, only if you're *serious* in maintenance, not hybridizing.

"_Let start with B. simplex first, they are from stream that run from Lime-stone moutain in Krabi province. That is why they love alkaline water. I measured their water during rainy season at 7.5, so I figured it might be a little more alkaline in the dry season. That is why, I give you the figure 7.5-8.

Despite the fact that this species is being catch and exported in good number for many years, there are not much report of success with this species probably because of the common believe that Betta like low pH. 

Having said that, I don't think they are that picky about water quality. As long as you keep them in good condition, I'm sure they will breed. Put in a few pot or large PVC pipe for them to breed in and they will breed. The male will carry eggs and fry in his mouth for about 10-15 days, he will then split out anything from 20-74 fry. 74 is our record high at the moment, let see if anyone can beat this number_"

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## Nonn

The B. simplex Type II was caught by David Armitage, Tony Pinto and Danis Young from probably the very southern most distribution of the species (Maybe Tony P. will correct me on this). They gave me 2 original pairs which I'm now breed to F3 generation. 

The main different between Type II and normal B. simplex is that they tends to have more marking on their finage (like those of B. edithae although not as pronouce). They also get more blue shine scale compare to the normal simplex. Although the different is not enough to be a sub species of whatever in my opinion, I would recommend keeping the strain separately. 

All the fish sent to Singapore come from only one bloodline. I will distribute the second blood line (from the second pair) when I have enought of them. There are much fewer since the original male jumped out of the tank after only his first brood.  

One question, when you have only 2 original pairs, how do you manage the line? Keep the line separate as long as the offspring doesn't show sign of defect, then cross them, or mix them up from the very beginning?

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## whuntley

> snip...
> 
> One question, when you have only 2 original pairs, how do you manage the line? Keep the line separate as long as the offspring doesn't show sign of defect, then cross them, or mix them up from the very beginning?


It depends on what you wish to do. To keep the most of the original 4 sets of genes, mix and match early with different pairs for each brood. If a bad recessive shows up, you can usually figure what lines carried it and eliminate it by future selection of breeders. The earlier you do this, the better for the hobby, IMHO. Keeping lines separate could hide a negative recessive for many generations.

If the original set shows high variability, and you suspect a hybrid could be involved, line breeding (offspring to parent) and severe selection may be needed. This can, potentially, reduce the unwanted hybrid genes toward zero if done carefully.

IMHO, this line breeding is needed for *most* commercial imports of killifish from Nigeria and surrounding region. The exporters are most careless about getting the right females with the right males. I doubt if it is a deliberate attempt to make the strains essentially sterile (though it does in a generation or two). They don't seem smart enough for that kind of clever merchandising. [Most of the folks from there who are above minimal intelligence seem to be occupied in running 419 scams.  :Smile: ]

Wright

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## timebomb

Okay, fellas,

I'm in possession of 2 pairs of Betta simplex which came from Nonn. The last time I distributed this fish to 2 hobbyists in this forum, one pair died after a few days and there were no news from the guy who took the other pair. So I'm going to be a bit more fussy about who I give the fish to now.

If you like to have a pair, submit your application form in triplicate with full details on stuff like how long have you been keeping fish, what sort of tank you're going to keep the fish in, what are you going to do when the fish breed, so on and so forth. Please enclose supporting documents like birth and marriage certificates, driving licences, educational certificates and passport size photographs. 

Okay, jokes aside, if you want them, tell me more about yourself first. If I think you're not qualified to keep the simplex, I will ignore your application. Better that than I tell you to your face that you're not good enough  :Laughing:  Enquiries sent through private email or message will not be entertained. If you want the fish, ask for them in this thread or don't ask at all.

I'm also in possession of 16 T-shirts. They are in M and L sizes. These T shirts will be at Eco-Culture tomorrow afternoon. Each is Sing $6. Neither Eco-Culture nor I are making any money out of this. It's all in support of Nonn's web site, www.siamensis.org. Those of you who have been bugging Nonn for exotic Bettas or have taken some from him should rush down to Eco and buy as many T shirts as you can, if you ask me  :Laughing: . It's the least you should do for someone who have done a lot for the hobby. 

Here's a pic of the T shirt:


Loh K L

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## imported_lily

Very nice T-shirt but too bad Eco-Culture is too far from where I am staying...  :Crying:

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## Slaigar

> Enquiries sent through private email or message will not be entertained. If you want the fish, ask for them in this thread or don't ask at all.


 Ah... if only I lived in Singapore, I would be the first person to request one =). Do you have any pictures of these beauties yet?

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## RonWill

> If you want the fish, ask for them in this thread or don't ask at all


Kwek Leong, I'm quite confident I can but I won't ask. Instead, please put aside 2 L-size T's for me... I'll wear one to sleep :wink:

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## Nonn

Loh,

The first 2 pairs, I gave to you were wild-caught. They are very difficult to keep. The fish I distributed this time were born in my fish room. They are very strong and robust. Average aquarist with determination shouldn't have problem keeping them at all. They will eat flake food as well. I use Tetra's and Ocean Nutritional. 

Thank you for taking up the t-shirt thingy for me.  :Very Happy:  Guys, proceeds from the t-shirts will be paying for the siamensis.org website. Just to keep it going. If we happen to sell more enough we might be able to buy the swamp -in the industrialized area- where Betta sp. Mahachai are found. The last time I check it cost around $ Singapore 20,000,000  :Very Happy:  No kidding!

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## TS168

> The last time I check it cost around $ Singapore 20,000,000  No kidding!


That S$2million? How big is the area.
I really salute you. It nice to know that there are people who are so focus in betta. Keep up the good work.

Cheer.

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## MrTree

Choy,

Have you taken any pictures of the fish? 

Cheers,

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## hwchoy

> Choy,
> 
> Have you taken any pictures of the fish? 
> 
> Cheers,


nope, haven't been takings pics of any more betta nor paros recently. don't have the space to house them till their colours show up. although I did drool at that fish in eco.

however I have TWO siamensis t-shirts  :Very Happy:  eat your heart out.  :Cool:

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## MrTree

> however I have TWO siamensis t-shirts  eat your heart out.


Just bought 1 pc! Wearing to Thailand to look for fish!  :Razz:

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## RonWill

> The B. simplex Type II was caught by David Armitage, Tony Pinto and Danis Young from probably the very southern most distribution of the species (Maybe Tony P. will correct me on this). They gave me 2 original pairs which I'm now breed to F3 generation.


Hi Nonn,
I received a pair of _B. simplex_ from Kwek Leong on last Saturday and they're in a tank of their own, with a few _Corydoras habrosus_ as tankmates.

They're pretty shy and probably adapting to new surroundings but I trust you like the home I have for them? (The 'Pin-Tail' guppies were relocated to the low-cube DW tank)


Jian Yang took the following pics while I got my fingers wet in the 3rd Walstad-styled tank.
 

As these are the only _Betta_ species I'm maintaining, please don't worry about line contamination. I'll give them the best possible care and will update as needed.

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## Nonn

Sure look much better than bare bottom tank they grown up in, Lonnie  :Very Happy:  

Choy, Mr.Tree, thank you for helping me out with the t-shirts. Looking forward to see you in the swamp of Mahachai.

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## RonWill

> Sure look much better than bare bottom tank they grown up in, Lonnie


urm... this is great. All I took was a pair of betta and you call me "Lonnie". If you sent several species, good gosh!, I'll end up "Loonie"!  :Confused:   :Laughing:  

Jokes aside, any breeding tips?

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## budak

I think the simplex pair in Eco Culture's tank is brooding eggs! Nice!!

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## Nonn

Ha Loonie! your name was in different page y'know :P 

Feed them well, add some salt in the water, give them more aeretion to stimulate them to breed, oh provide them some cave too.

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## RonWill

Nonn, I must need new glasses since I can't find 'Loonie' in the previous page of the thread... oh well, it happens as one 'matures' :wink: 

What I find curious is the need for caves. I haven't been reading up on the simplex as much as I should but don't remember them being cave-dwellers or cave-spawners. If it's to serve as a refuge for the female, shouldn't the plants be enough? As is, I'm having a tough time finding the two.




> Feed them well, add some salt in the water, give them more aeretion to stimulate them to breed, oh provide them some cave too.


 I have only 'Red Sea' marine salt and added a teaspoon of that this morning, together with a quartered-calcium tablet (for my ramhorn snails). The tank has a UGF running with twin uplift tubes, so aeration should be sufficient.

Perhaps they're homesick but their appetite isn't half of the gardneris'. They ignored the tubifex but picked on some BBS. Hopefully, their appetite will improve over the week.

PS: I got a M-size T for my son and he thinks that the siamensis artwork looks 'kewl man'.

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## Nonn

Ron,

They are not exactly cave spawner but they love doing it in the cave. Feel safer, I guess. Take a look at the pictures here http://www.siamensis.org/article/a008.asp
Having said that, 2 people reports seeing them doing it in open water in natural habitat. I guess they will be ok with a lot of plant like in your tank. I normally keep them in bare bottom tank with a sponge filter so...I need a cave for them. 

This is article about their home town. 
http://www.siamensis.org/survey/s026e.asp

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## RonWill

Nonn, the Simplex 'disappeared' for a few days and I couldn't find them  :Shocked:  

but... when they showed up again, the male had a 'sore throat' and probably from brooding eggs as seen in *a pic* from your site. [Nonn, may I link directly to your pictures at this forum? It'd make the discussion easier without swapping browser windows]

I don't have a decent shot of the male now, and neither could Jian Yang - they hid most of the time but here's a blurry pic of the female  :Opps:  


If the male is indeed brooding, what is the incubation period? Will the emerged fry be able to accept BBS or do they require infusoria-sized foods? It's my first attempt with mouth-brooding bettas, so excuse me if I sound like a newbie [for once :wink: ]

Further advice appreciated.

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## Nonn

Hello,

Very Good News indeed  :Very Happy:  You can sure link my pix to this site directly.

Hmm..it will take them about 10-14 days to brood. Once released the fry are very big and will take bbs with no problem at all. They are troublesome to rear up, except occasional ick and velvet, which you all Killi folks know how to deal with. Some salt in the water will help too. 

 :Very Happy:

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## RonWill

Thanks Nonn, for the image linking permission and this is the 'sore throat' I was referring to; 

Jian Yang saw it too but the male was quick to hide into the dense foliage. Is this reaction typical of _B. simplex_? [ie. are they always so shy]

The pair isn't very big so what spawn number (or fry count) can one expect? Do the pair exhibit parental care, like some mouth-brooding cichlids, or do the adults predate on their young?

To be honest, I'm very surprised by the pair getting along so well. Usually, Betta males are known 'wife-beaters'!

Meanwhile, before any fry appears, I'll add a pinch of salt... just to be on the safe side. Will update when I see anything.

PS: Is the 'cave' made from plastic or terra cota (sp?)?

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## stormhawk

Terracotta Ron  :Smile:  That's a neat "cave". I don't see those for sale in Singapore.

Oh yes, I saw the male brooding but then again.. brown algae prevented a good shot of the bulging throat  :Rolling Eyes: .

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## Nonn

Both parents are quite young, first of all, I wouldn't be surprise if the male eat this cluth of eggs. They normally do it the first time around, although there are some exception too. If he do eat the eggs, feed them well and he will brood again within a few week, normally successful. 

They normally give out something like 20-50 fry. Our record high -among Siamensis.org friends- was something like 75, I can't remember exactly. 

I normally take out the female once male start brooding. Don't let the male see any food or he will try to eat it and in the process dammage the eggs. When I see the first fry, I left the dad in with the fry for another 12-24 hours just to make sure he split out all the fry. Then remove him. Other wise he will eat the fry. The fry will take BBS. 

Male mouth brooder are not that aggresive toward the female. They are much better husband than the bubble nester.

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## Nonn

Forget about the cave, it is a terra cotta, made as wall hanging flower pot. That is why it is flat on one side. It is quite difficult to find here too. I bought 3 of those when I found the shop. When I needed more, I can't find the shop anymore  :Sad:  If you are not concern about visual effect, PVC pipe or anything resemble cave will be fine too.

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## RonWill

Nonn, I managed to grab some pics of the pair before they sprinted back into hiding...
  

I didn't manage to get a side profile shot of male and there's no sign of fry yet.

Question: If I leave the young fry together with the parents, what are the chances of their survival?

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## Nonn

Ron, 

I never try leaving the fry with parents because I normally spawn them in bare tank. If the fry have enough cover from plants, I think they will survive, provided that there is enough food for them. Your male doesn't look like he is brooding, thouhg.

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## stormhawk

Nonn, the male's brooding alright. I saw him displaying the brooding colours and a HUGE bulging throat. Thought he was choking or something but he sure is brooding. :wink: I've no idea how it is now but I should be getting a glimpse again tomorrow  :Twisted Evil:

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## ban_tse

Guess what? My male is brooding too!!

Wonder if this is the season? Maybe the recent cooler weather has a part to play?

Anyway I'm keeping my fingers crossed the male does'nt get too hungry and swallows the eggs.

Ben

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## RonWill

Dear Nonn & those maintaining the _B. simplex_,
This is the 3rd time I've seen the male with a 'sore throat' but have yet to see any fry. The little ones either learnt very quickly to hide in the safety of dense plants or they were predated upon by the parents.

It's my lucky day (Friday the 13th has always been a special day for me) and managed to take a few shots of the shy brooding male.




Is it advisable to catch the male out so he can continue to brood or will the move 'force' it to swallow everything?  :Shocked:  

While I prefer the permanent setup approach, I'm also impatient to see some fry... especially after I saw the tiny fellas during the meet-up at Eco's.

Spawn-fever musta have gotten a grip on me... I dreamt I saw a male Empire gudgeon guarding a spawn of a thousand eggs. Kwek Leong, have you checked on yours? :wink:

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## Nonn

The best way is to remove all other fish, except the brooding male, out of the tank, then remove him too when he split out the fry. If you disturbed him too much during his brooding period, normally, he will split out everything whatever he have in his mouth, egg, pre mature fry, mature fy. So far, I don't have good success artificially brooding their eggs, and recommend aqainst doing so because you will altered their parental behavior, which will lead to more problem if one day we want to release them into the wild. I normally just quit using the male that keep on eating his eggs. 

I'm keeping my fingers cross for you. How many successful brood so far from those fish?

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## timebomb

> Spawn-fever musta have gotten a grip on me... I dreamt I saw a male Empire gudgeon guarding a spawn of a thousand eggs. Kwek Leong, have you checked on yours? :wink:


What??  :Shocked:  No signs of eggs yet, my friend. The male is no longer showing spawning colours. It seems to have lost its libido.

Loh K L

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## RonWill

Nonn,


This is the 5th time I see 'big throat' but have not spotted a single fry yet. The pair was previously in the small planted tank but now, are in a plastic tank with inverted flower pot.

'Big throat' was spotted on Sep 26th and female removed to holding tank. Hopefully, this time, the undisturbed male will do his job.

I'm told that if all things goes well, fry are expected in 10 days' time. Comment from those who've been there and done that?

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## Nonn

I will keep my fingers cross for you.

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## RonWill

Nonn,

I hope this is what you're hoping to see :wink: 


Noticed that the male isn't deep-throat... urm... sore throat... arhem brooding and searched for fry while doing partial water change.

These little fellas are already 4mm but the brood is kinda small isn't it? How many fry can one expect to see? Anyway, I've transferred them to a grow-out container and will keep you posted.

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## turaco

Will it better to leave them with daddy a little longer? Hmm, I can see them smiling at me already \ :Very Happy: / .

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## RonWill

> Will it better to leave them with daddy a little longer?


 Personally, I think not. From the time 'daddy' started brooding on Sept 28th till the day I bastered out the fry, it was almost 14 days... that's 2 weeks without food. I'll look at fry differently when deprived of food for that long! [think snack attack!]

Gan, now that the fry are safe in their own trays, the male can resume feeding and I'm conditioning him to make whoopie again. Female, separated when male started brooding, is now plumb again.

Hopefully, I'll have even more fry smiling at you :wink:

BTW, Ben, how's your brood coming along?

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## RonWill

Hi Nonn,
Thought you might like an update on those 10 frys...

... and they're all here. Nine of them are about 1.5cm but there's one puny little Peter Pan, refusing to grow up  :Confused:  

Closer view of the bigger fry


Know something? Daddy is brooding again...

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## turaco

Ron,
High time to pay you a visit. I'll bring my net  :Laughing:  .

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## RonWill

Nonn,
The 1st _simplex_ brood was a miserable 10 fry and I was telling my wife that if I don't see something substantial, I'm gonna flush them down the toilet!

Heh, I guess the breeders overheard...

Fresh out of the oven. Newly collected _Betta simplex_ fry. Anyone want to *count* them? :wink: 

Now that I have two broods of _simplex_ going, I think it's time for someone else to hold that torch. I left _Betta_ species a good while back but since this is your 'baby', breeding them is my contribution to local betta hobbyists, as well as your desire to see them distributed.

Please advise what you wish for me to do with the 10 older fry, plus this newly collected 2nd batch. [I have new killies coming in and am desperately running out of tank space... my Mrs don't approve of have little tanks under our bed either  :Rolling Eyes:  ]

Waiting for your instructions before the rest of the 'boys' raid my setups this weekend!  :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:

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## stormhawk

Ron, I think you miscounted, total is 57 not 47 fry.  :Laughing:

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## RonWill

Great.... now the whole world knows my maths sucks!  :Opps:

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## RonWill

Earth calling Nonn... Houston we have a problem...

Need advice on fry distribution. Male is brooding again. Have new killie fishes & eggs arriving soon and am in need of any available tank space.

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## nonamethefish

Sounds like its time for these guys to cross the pond  :Cool:

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## chue76

> Okay, fellas,
> 
> I'm in possession of 2 pairs of Betta simplex which came from Nonn. The last time I distributed this fish to 2 hobbyists in this forum, one pair died after a few days and there were no news from the guy who took the other pair. So I'm going to be a bit more fussy about who I give the fish to now.
> 
> If you like to have a pair, submit your application form in triplicate with full details on stuff like how long have you been keeping fish, what sort of tank you're going to keep the fish in, what are you going to do when the fish breed, so on and so forth. Please enclose supporting documents like birth and marriage certificates, driving licences, educational certificates and passport size photographs. 
> 
> Okay, jokes aside, if you want them, tell me more about yourself first. If I think you're not qualified to keep the simplex, I will ignore your application. Better that than I tell you to your face that you're not good enough  Enquiries sent through private email or message will not be entertained. If you want the fish, ask for them in this thread or don't ask at all.
> 
> I'm also in possession of 16 T-shirts. They are in M and L sizes. These T shirts will be at Eco-Culture tomorrow afternoon. Each is Sing $6. Neither Eco-Culture nor I are making any money out of this. It's all in support of Nonn's web site, www.siamensis.org. Those of you who have been bugging Nonn for exotic Bettas or have taken some from him should rush down to Eco and buy as many T shirts as you can, if you ask me . It's the least you should do for someone who have done a lot for the hobby. 
> ...


Hi i would like to bet a pair of betta simplex type II if possible, erm... i prepared a 10 gallon tanks with side hanging filter for it, i am currently keeping and breeding betta splendens (normal types) and also wild betta albimarginata, nort quite sure how much more in info you might need so maybe you can contact me?  :Razz:

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## chue76

Hi, i am interested in a pair of betta simplex type II does anyone have for sale?

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## chue76

Hi seniors, i have been hunting high n low n everywhere else but cannot for the life of me get a pair of these b.simplex! Can anyone here share a pair with me or sell me a pair ? i REALLY would appreciate it very much!!!! pleeeeeeeease?????  :Kiss:

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## vannel

You do realise this thread was started in 2004. Which also happens to be when the last post was made. I reckon you'll have more luck starting a [Want] thread in the marketplace..?

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