# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Cichlids >  reebok4190's new Altum Angels!!!

## reebok4190

Yup, I took almost half the 2nd batch from C328 in my purchase. Their finnage are bloody red and high... 

YouTube - Altum Angels

A great buy for me since i waited for along time.. :Grin:

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## StanChung

Wow! pictures please!!!

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## valice

What's the colour of the eyes?

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## reebok4190

Hi, Valice... What is in for the eyes? I know you have read alot on fishes, mind sharing what is in for the eyes? Definitely not ...An eye for an eye.. i hope..

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## reebok4190

YouTube - Altum Angels

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## andrewtyr

How about still pictures? I would like to see the profile of the fish. Thanks!

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## valice

> Hi, Valice... What is in for the eyes? I know you have read alot on fishes, mind sharing what is in for the eyes? Definitely not ...An eye for an eye.. i hope..


I am not sure if I am 100% correct on this, but from observation of pictures and also information I learnt from fellow cichlid lovers, true Altums don't have the red colouration on the eye, while the _P.scalare_ have them.

Hope someone can correct me on this misinformation if it is indeed wrong.

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## David Moses Heng

mind if i ask how much you pay for them? What valice might be right...

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## reebok4190

> I am not sure if I am 100% correct on this, but from observation of pictures and also information I learnt from fellow cichlid lovers, true Altums don't have the red colouration on the eye, while the _P.scalare_ have them.
> 
> Hope someone can correct me on this misinformation if it is indeed wrong.


ok. The altum I've got don't have red eyes but red finnages...they are similar to ones kept by the french collector at finarama. I am excited as his collection of his altum beauties stunned me. Definitely a prized purchased.. I did peep at them with a torchlight in the night. Gosh, my heart stopped for a minute...its exactly the ones i hope to have. Guess my wait does pay off.. The last time, the angels I've got were not Altum Angels..they are scalare.. confirmed at finarama. 

But I guess, more importantly is are these the fishes you want and desire to keep and pay? Really up to the individual preference.. Some willing to pay sky rocket price for them while some seeks the other way.. No harm done..as hobby is still a hobby..an individual's interest. :Grin:

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## CK Yeo

Here is an article by Heiko Bleher on the different angels written for a company sometime ago.
http://www.hagen.com/pdf/aquatic/NUT...TIC_NEWS_3.pdf

ck

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## AA24

hi.. any update on how the fish are doing..??..

also, how did you do the acclimatisation to your tank...??..

and, lastly... what are you feeding the altums...??..

much thanks...

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## David Moses Heng

> ok. The altum I've got don't have red eyes but red finnages...they are similar to ones kept by the french collector at finarama. I am excited as his collection of his altum beauties stunned me. Definitely a prized purchased.. I did peep at them with a torchlight in the night. Gosh, my heart stopped for a minute...its exactly the ones i hope to have. Guess my wait does pay off.. The last time, the angels I've got were not Altum Angels..they are scalare.. confirmed at finarama. 
> 
> But I guess, more importantly is are these the fishes you want and desire to keep and pay? Really up to the individual preference.. Some willing to pay sky rocket price for them while some seeks the other way.. No harm done..as hobby is still a hobby..an individual's interest.


 
how big are your fish? they might be too small to tell if they are geniue or not. Any pics to share :Smile:

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## reebok4190

> hi.. any update on how the fish are doing..??..
> 
> also, how did you do the acclimatisation to your tank...??..
> 
> and, lastly... what are you feeding the altums...??..
> 
> much thanks...


The altums are doing extremely well. So far, it has been a great experience. Managed to get a link of the altum which is similar to mine. 

http://www.finarama.com/gallery/lionelfichen.htm

anything that feeds the mouth, they are wild and not to be pampered.  :Grin:  
Have been feeding frozen blood worm after a wash of them, dry pellet and cherry shrimps...

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## reebok4190

Its been awhile now... Here is the update... Cheers..and Happy New Year!!!

YouTube - Growing up

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## illumnae

majestic fish you have there. perhaps you could share with us how you care for your fish? altums are notoriously difficult to keep i've heard

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## Simon

yes, Altums are notorius for their appetite  :Smile:  if you have slow swimmer, you can jolly kiss them good bye. They love to prey on shrimps, pencilfishes, cardinal tetras or other shinning tetras and they hunt in packs at night, witness a few times where they herd the pencilfish, goes into a 45 degree attack mode and snap the pencilfish into 2 then swims away, but they do love yamatos. Good number to start with is 5-6 where they establish a pecking order in the group. 

Also advisable to keep them in a min. 2ft deep tank, I did an experiment on mine years back and 2 of them in my 2ft stayed small, while the rest in the 6ft grew to as big as 17 inches from tip to tip. 

Favorite Altum saying "If it can fit into their mouth, it probably end up in there"

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## ccs

> I am not sure if I am 100% correct on this, but from observation of pictures and also information I learnt from fellow cichlid lovers, true Altums don't have the red colouration on the eye, while the _P.scalare_ have them.
> 
> Hope someone can correct me on this misinformation if it is indeed wrong.


The last time round when i bought my altums from Gans. They had red eyes but after sometimes the red eyes became amber in color. Not sure if it had anything to do with the beef heart that Gan fed them.

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## Simon

the eyes should be black not red.

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## ccs

But the eye is not totally black right. The edge is red.

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## reebok4190

Not to be overly bother, These are fishes from the wild, bound to have some different in variation. Beside, if you have gotten from a reliable source where most people are getting from, you can be assured of what you are getting. 

My altum angels which have grown bigger and stronger now, do have red tone at the side of the eyes. If you want to be well-informed the differences or more information on altum angels, peruvian angels, Scalare Angels or etc... either a google search on these beauties or dropby www.finarama.com look at the gallery..a pictures speak a thousand word.

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## reebok4190

Here's some updates of the Altum Angels...

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## the_oracle

One word, bro...........
AWESOME............
Keep it up...............


Sanie.

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## mictok

:Jump for joy: VERY IMPRESSIVE  :Jump for joy: 

Any spawning take place?

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## barmby

Buy buy buy.. before someone decides to ban it. Lucky you - reebok4190

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## trident

reebok,
Is that a discus you keep together with the Altums?
Nice Altums bro.

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## reebok4190

Thanks for the compliments. So far they have been a joy 2 me to watch them flaring.. Its been more than a year. Seems like there is a courtship but i leave it as they are. Beside i am keeping them just to enjoy their activitity behaviors in the wild under water. I am reaping the rewards.

This year buying another batch to add with the existing 6 months later. Heard that Altum Angels just started yesterday..

Wish all of you success whom are trying out this year...  :Smile:

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## lolo

hi reebok,

are your altum living in peace with tetras? thinking of getting some angel fish for my planted.

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## taygu

Hi,

Was talking to my friend about Altum, he told me that he put 100 pcs of tetra with 6 Altum and all tetra gone by the next morning..

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## Star-flog

> Here's some updates of the Altum Angels...


 very nice Altum, very tempting to start this beautiful fish. Is the season here yet?

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## d2sign

Yes! Was at C328 last night, watching some bros bring them home,1 after another. very tiny baby angel.

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## Orion

> Yes! Was at C328 last night, watching some bros bring them home,1 after another. very tiny baby angel.


I wouldn't know if there are real Altum angel. The packet comes in 2 baby fishes? I saw a lot named Peru, Brazil Angel all looked like altum! They told me all come from a farm in Malaysia and breeding so successful now they sell less than 10 per fish. Anyone any clear info on this?

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## d2sign

Can get some info at this thread:
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=43176

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## apistomaster

> I wouldn't know if there are real Altum angel. The packet comes in 2 baby fishes? I saw a lot named Peru, Brazil Angel all looked like altum! They told me all come from a farm in Malaysia and breeding so successful now they sell less than 10 per fish. Anyone any clear info on this?


Are you saying real P. altums are being bred and sold for $0.10 each or just available in lots of 10?
You know hardly anyone in the Western Hemisphere believes that P altum, sensu stricto, are being bred by anyone. Rio Negro P.scalare P. altum look-a-likes, yes but not Ata Bapo, Venezuelan, P. altums.

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## Orion

> Are you saying real P. altums are being bred and sold for $0.10 each or just available in lots of 10?
> You know hardly anyone in the Western Hemisphere believes that P altum, sensu stricto, are being bred by anyone. Rio Negro P.scalare P. altum look-a-likes, yes but not Ata Bapo, Venezuelan, P. altums.



Oh.. I mean those 'altum' there that are sold at $10.
I am shocked to see the fishes at that price as I have kept the real thing years ago... cost me $179 for 2.

Again they look 'real' at the Singapore LFS, but they are small...bigger we will know

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## Panut

Anyone knows why, when they are still a juvenile, the finnage are so high, but once they grow bigger in size.. the fins seem to be shorter.. How to maintain its high fin?

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## Heiko Bleher

Hi,

this is Heiko Bleher and I just did an extensive lecture in Toronto for the Canadian Association of Aquarium Clubs on also the topic: Pterophylum altum Pellegrin, 1904.

Those fishes you have here as "Altums" are P. scalare from the Rio Negro, those are being breed almost worldwide now 8and unfortunately sold as "Altums", which they are definitely NOT).

They are very nice angelfishes, but P. scalare. They grow also large (not as large as the real P. altum), but the more big they grow, the smaller get the fins. With P. altum it is one of the morphological characters that is the other way around.

Anyhow, nice fishes,

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com

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## Panut

oh, so the "altums" we have here are not actually altums? But P.scalare instead?  :Crying: 

Mr Heiko, if given a picture of a juvenile, are you able to tell if its an altum?

cheers,

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## tanhb

> Hi,
> 
> this is Heiko Bleher and I just did an extensive lecture in Toronto for the Canadian Association of Aquarium Clubs on also the topic: Pterophylum altum Pellegrin, 1904.
> 
> Those fishes you have here as "Altums" are P. scalare from the Rio Negro, those are being breed almost worldwide now 8and unfortunately sold as "Altums", which they are definitely NOT).
> 
> They are very nice angelfishes, but P. scalare. They grow also large (not as large as the real P. altum), but the more big they grow, the smaller get the fins. With P. altum it is one of the morphological characters that is the other way around.
> 
> Anyhow, nice fishes,
> ...


 :Shocked:  Oh. I am confused. The above pictures do look like altum to me except for the red eye ring.

Mr. Heiko, do you mind share with us how you tell the above is not altum? By the way, do you mean for a real altum, it fins will grow even longer as it body get larger? From what I see here in Singapore, those "altum" that we bought from our local fish shop, the fins do not grow proportionally to the body grow rate. If what you said is correct, it might mean that those "altum" we bought at a high price every year from July to November is not real altum.  :Crying:

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## Panut

I hope that isnt the case.. it means everyone here in singapore is deluded by what is - the "real" altum?  :Sad:

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## Quixotic

Probably not enough homework and understanding on the fishes, plus misguided information from the Internet.

CK actually posted Heiko's write up on the key differences in post #10 in 2007, a year ago.

That said, _P. altum_ surely has been offered in Singapore before right? Probably really really rare and too expensive.

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## tanhb

> CK actually posted Heiko's write up on the key differences in post #10 in 2007, a year ago.


Yes, I read that article before. After your post I went back to read it again, it does make sense that what we see in Singapore are more toward Rio Negro Altum (P. scalare) and not P. altum, Atabapo, Venezuela.

So the question now is, is there any chance we can get to see a real altum in Singapore nowadays? :Confused:

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## apistomaster

The "Rio Rhine" Altums bred in Europe are also upper Rio Negro P. scalare and the confusion is world wide. www.finarama.com has much material on these false altums. Real altums are not so easily confused with Rio Negro P. scalare altum look-a-likes.

Very few spawns of real altums have been documented just as very few real pure wild Heckel discus spawns have been documented.
Both can draw heated debates between those who believe and those who do not.

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## Orion

I am confused. So the pictures posted by Reebok 4190 are the real altum angels from Atabapo?

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## Quixotic

I think the confusion is also not helped by the fact that the "altum" term is being used on the Rio Negro and Peru _P. scalare_. Calling them the Rio Negro or Peruvian "altum" will only falsely, keep reinforcing to unsuspected aquarist that these are _P. altum_.

Orion, Heiko did mention in post #36 that these are not _P. altum_.

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## illumnae

so are all the altums we are seeing in c328 now Rio Negro scalares?

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## Panut

> I think the confusion is also not helped by the fact that the "altum" term is being used on the Rio Negro and Peru _P. scalare_. Calling them the Rio Negro or Peruvian "altum" will only falsely, keep reinforcing to unsuspected aquarist that these are _P. altum_.


The problem is that, shops like C328, merely write "ALTUM" on the glass panels of the tank they are stored in. Not Puruvian Altum but just "ALTUM". 

So, am i right to say that all these "altums" that came in these past week, they are all NOT the real altums ?

 :Huh?:

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## tanhb

> so are all the altums we are seeing in c328 now Rio Negro scalares?


I would think so if according to Mr. Heiko Bleher article posted by CK in post #10.



> The problem is that, shops like C328, merely write "ALTUM" on the glass panels of the tank they are stored in. Not Puruvian Altum but just "ALTUM". 
> 
> So, am i right to say that all these "altums" that came in these past week, they are all NOT the real altums ?


They are not Peruvian altum(P. scalare). They are either the real altum or Rio Negro Altum which is P. scalare.

I always thought that those beautiful angels we see on our shore are altum, but it seem like they are not. If all these P. scalare from Rio Negro already so beautiful, how will a real altum look like? Will my eyes pop :Shocked:  when I get to see the real altum?

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## Panut

Anyone have authentic pictures of what real altum looks like?

cheers

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## raglan

Heiko sees a difference between angels from the Atabapo region and other regions of the Orinoco. 
this will not be ascertained until DNA is properly done.
The fish you are seeing are Orinoco angelfish, known as Pterophyllum altum to , I believe, every taxonomist and all the experienced aquarists and collectors and scientists in Venezuela.

Heiko's argument is good, but until we see the DNA evidence, we have to go with scientific knowledge so far.

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## Panut

> Heiko sees a difference between angels from the Atabapo region and other regions of the Orinoco. 
> this will not be ascertained until DNA is properly done.
> The fish you are seeing are Orinoco angelfish, known as Pterophyllum altum to everyone else.


So we what we have are Pterophyllum altum until proven guilty..  :Grin:

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## raglan

> So we what we have are Pterophyllum altum until proven guilty..


I haven't seen all your fish, but mostly, yes. Altum until shown to be otherwise.

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## reebok4190

Here's an update of the Altum Angels... Hardy and Easy to keep.. Cheers.. Happy Holidays!!!  :Smile:

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## mictok

Dont tempt me.

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## illumnae

very lovely. hope mine grow as well as yours did!

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## reebok4190

> Dont tempt me.


I am unable to tempt you but my Altum Angelfish can!!! 

Do try out these beauties and you know you will not regret when you have success with them. When they grow big and starts flaring like fighting fishes, you will know its worth it. 

Anyway the next season is next May or June, you can start creating some wealth to invest the new season of altum angels to come. Feel free to ask me for help, I owed you a favor. Basically you need is just a Shield Plan and that what's you need..the rest will be secrets of keeping them healthy which unfold latter by these beauties. When you get them to settle down, they are extremely easy and hardy..Best only when you have a 4ft or more and a high depth tank.  :Grin:  Seen you kept fishes before, you have Prime Care on them.You should not have a problem with these altum angelfish with your Prime Care and a Shield Plan from me. Still tempted? I should say, "JUST DO IT!"  :Jump for joy: 




> very lovely. hope mine grow as well as yours did!


No worries, you will as long you don't interfere them other than feeding them and water change. Hope you kept them in big tank. Its better. Configuration of the water condition will not change drastically. Wish you success.

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## derekchia

> Here's an update of the Altum Angels... Hardy and Easy to keep.. Cheers.. Happy Holidays!!!


 Very nice collection you have, are these from the old batch or new collection from 2008?
How many are you keeping in your 6feet tank?

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## bosebani

Hi bro reebok, if yours are not true altums, what are the true altums than? How they look like? Anyone has some link or pictures to tell the difference. I tried to search for bro CK link answered by H B but cannot find  :Embarassed:

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## reebok4190

> Hi bro reebok, if yours are not true altums, what are the true altums than? How they look like? Anyone has some link or pictures to tell the difference. I tried to search for bro CK link answered by H B but cannot find


Please throw your doubt to the one whom you heard from and get the answer from the respective? I am not disturbed by their comment but i do mind how you post the question to me. Do your search at www.finarama.com, there is identification of wild angelfishes. Don't be sway just by a comment. Do your homework 1st. Ignorance is not an excuse. Happy Holidays to you...

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## bosebani

> Please throw your doubt to the one whom you heard from and get the answer from the respective? I am not disturbed by their comment but i do mind how you post the question to me. Do your search at www.finarama.com, there is identification of wild angelfishes. Don't be sway just by a comment. Do your homework 1st. Ignorance is not an excuse. Happy Holidays to you...


 
http://www.finarama.com/tba/identification.htm
bro, I don't expect spoon feeding, but had done some searches myself and found that what you have is the Pt Altums as like in "finarama" web page link as above. 

I also has some altums same like yours bought couple months back october 08, now I am getting bit confuse if mine is it the real altums or not.  :Embarassed: . Cheers!

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## mictok

:Sad:  :Sad:  :Sad:  At the end of the day are we going after the quality of fish or going after pure breed fish.In my view,lets stop questioning about the defination of "Altum" and enjoy what we have. :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile: 

It seems to see that a couple of Brothers mention that the Altum die even as fast as overnight for the new purchase,is it true that once it is stable it is really easy to up keep them?Look like a made it or break it case at the moment you put them into the new tank. :Confused:

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## raglan

I enjoy questioning the views we have  :Laughing: 
and questioning the relationships between groups of angelfish.  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 
and especially,
questioning the views of experts !  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

all the wild fish are quality, IMO. I have one altum that is a runt, yet it is the most aggressive feeders and the bravest, most inquisitive of the bunch.. I'd like to see it breed.
It was the last one sold of thousands imported that year.

dave

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## reebok4190

> http://www.finarama.com/tba/identification.htm
> bro, I don't expect spoon feeding, but had done some searches myself and found that what you have is the Pt Altums as like in "finarama" web page link as above. 
> 
> I also has some altums same like yours bought couple months back october 08, now I am getting bit confuse if mine is it the real altums or not. . Cheers!


Don't be confuse, if you are getting from a reliable source and confirmed by a reliable indentification guide (eg.one of the site is www.finarama.com and etc.) And if each of everytime, a tom, a dick and a harry starts to make a comment and a mess of this hobby. Ignore it... If you enjoyed what you are keeping, its good enough. No point for you to verify, clarify, verify and clarify..in the end, you realised you are keeing Altum Angelfish but it died... Sure to spoil the fun of keeping a hobby. If you are happy with your fish, stay that way. For me, I am.That's why I ignore whatever discussion made, they have every rights to do so. Its forum but just don't ask me the way you did. You have great fun with your fishes, they are a beauty.




> At the end of the day are we going after the quality of fish or going after pure breed fish.In my view,lets stop questioning about the defination of "Altum" and enjoy what we have.
> 
> It seems to see that a couple of Brothers mention that the Altum die even as fast as overnight for the new purchase,is it true that once it is stable it is really easy to up keep them?Look like a made it or break it case at the moment you put them into the new tank.


Well said, Mictok. Beside, other than having Altum Angels, i am also keeping Peruvian Angels. They are just as beautiful in their own rights. Anyway, they are wild fishes too. It just that they are more hardy and easy to accustom to our home tank than Altum Angel.

Altum Angels are abit more sensitive to water condition to their natural habitat. Nevertheless, These Altum Angel have somehow a "waiting period" before it actually settled down and becoming hardy. Usually, even on the 1st day they may eat well, it seems white slime will always developed and they start to be frightful. If you can help them tide this period, all is well. One time, i did a house renovation, I transferred my Altum with the water into another tank with alot of air aeration with external filter for 2 weeks. Despite some dust gather in the water, all are well. Of course, i do cover them too. As long you don't make drastic change in the water, you shouldn't have problem. One last thing, its always good to have them in big tank. So i shall look forward you keeping altum angel in the next season?
Cheers..and a Happy Holiday.!!!

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## raglan

> Don't be confuse, if you are getting from a reliable source and confirmed by a reliable indentification guide (eg.one of the site is www.finarama.com and etc.) And if each of everytime, a tom, a dick and a harry starts to make a comment and a mess of this hobby. Ignore it... If you enjoyed what you are keeping, its good enough. No point for you to verify, clarify, verify and clarify..in the end, you realised you are keeing Altum Angelfish but it died... Sure to spoil the fun of keeping a hobby. If you are happy with your fish, stay that way. For me, I am.That's why I ignore whatever discussion made, they have every rights to do so. Its forum but just don't ask me the way you did. You have great fun with your fishes, they are a beauty.
> 
> 
> 
> Well said, Mictok. Beside, other than having Altum Angels, i am also keeping Peruvian Angels. They are just as beautiful in their own rights. Anyway, they are wild fishes too. It just that they are more hardy and easy to accustom to our home tank than Altum Angel.
> 
> Altum Angels are abit more sensitive to water condition to their natural habitat. Nevertheless, These Altum Angel have somehow a "waiting period" before it actually settled down and becoming hardy. Usually, even on the 1st day they may eat well, it seems white slime will always developed and they start to be frightful. If you can help them tide this period, all is well. One time, i did a house renovation, I transferred my Altum with the water into another tank with alot of air aeration with external filter for 2 weeks. Despite some dust gather in the water, all are well. Of course, i do cover them too. As long you don't make drastic change in the water, you shouldn't have problem. One last thing, its always good to have them in big tank. So i shall look forward you keeping altum angel in the next season?
> Cheers..and a Happy Holiday.!!!


mine have jumped out a few times, hit a dirty floor, and no problems.
I've never had them get ill like that if they weren't subjected to a long transfer with water fouling and chilling, or got infected by careless transfer of germs from another tank that was ill.
Of course, I do things a bit differently from usual practice. I heat them up to 90 degrees with massive aeration and good bottom to top circulation ( sponge filter lift tubes), and do several WC per day with RO mixed with carbon filtered tapwater, if I know they have been severely challenged.
NO other fish in the quarantine.

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## mictok

> mine have jumped out a few times, hit a dirty floor, and no problems.
> I've never had them get ill like that if they weren't subjected to a long transfer with water fouling and chilling, or got infected by careless transfer of germs from another tank that was ill.
> Of course, I do things a bit differently from usual practice. I heat them up to 90 degrees with massive aeration and good bottom to top circulation ( sponge filter lift tubes), and do several WC per day with RO mixed with carbon filtered tapwater, if I know they have been severely challenged.
> NO other fish in the quarantine.


Your altum jump out?Quite a rare sight for me,I have never see an angle fish or discus jump out of tank before.Most of them time they just knock on tank or drift wood when frighten.

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## raglan

One jumped out about two feet, hit the wall and fell back in. Once one jumped out because I had the video cam on the desk. that tank of altum hated the camera.
Now that I have concentrated on taming them, they are like puppies...except if I turn off the lights when they are resting. Then then is a commotion in the tank, but they do not jump out any more.

They are known as crazy fliers in their their natural habitat, I understand, when they are hunted. 
In the tank, they seem to jump more often if they are more closely confined , so that when they make their first wild dash, they hit the glass, then dash again and again., and out.

If they have enough room to complete the first dash, and then look about, they don't seem to get as agitated.
Dark objects are a source of fear for them, even a small book suddenly produced.

They get used to objects though. So it s only novel black objects or the object being moved form it's usual location, that scares them. My black German Shepherd never did alarm them much, he was there since the start. But the video cam was one of their worst fears, for some unkown reason, and only one tank was so fearful of it.

Now they let me bring it up close with not much problem.

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## illumnae

> Your altum jump out?Quite a rare sight for me,I have never see an angle fish or discus jump out of tank before.Most of them time they just knock on tank or drift wood when frighten.


I lost one to jumping too  :Confused:  Woke up in the morning to find it dried up on the floor.

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## raglan

One member of Finarama found one all dried up, but he put it in water and it lived, but had big missing areas of fins. I've rehydrated swordails that jumped and were pretty dried up. Swordtails seem to jump because they can, but angels only seem to jump out of fright.

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## StanChung

Reebock4190- those look like the real thing to me. I've kept some and not caught any like some explorer though.  :Grin: 

From my armchair- :Laughing:  the one thing the makes it look different from the 'Peruvian altums' are the faint stress bars. It's thicker than the 'Peruvian altums'. Pic of http://vitawater.ru/aqua/fish/papers/altum.shtml
P. scalare from this site looks very much like Altums don't you think?

Red eye or not, it seems there is a variation. Some have it some don't after seeing around 150 fishes from wild imports. [failing with many  :Sad: ]

The fins grow larger 'fans' as they age. So using this to compare with scalare is not a good way IMO.
I certainly would have thought the pic labelled _P. scalare_ is an almost adult _P. altum_ judging from the size of it's fin 'fans' but not yet prominent 'freckles'.
The _P. altum_ pics are certainly juveniles.

I notice the pics are from Aquapress so you may draw your own conclusions. 
[a running debate of course  :Grin: ]

From www.beautifulangels.net
http://www.beautifulangels.net/images/silver_veil.jpg a cross of something.

http://www.beautifulangels.net/wildangels.jpg wild scalares.

http://www.elacuarista.com/secciones...ar_concria.jpg not wild scalares.

http://www.aquatic-profiles.com/prof...Scalare001.jpg
This pic is really hard to differentiate except that the faint stress bar is thinner than real _P. altums_ IMHO.

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## derekchia

http://www.aquatic-profiles.com/prof...Scalare001.jpg

This piece apearance is very close to Altum angel except the mouth portion.
Nice Angel fish

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## raglan

> http://www.aquatic-profiles.com/prof...Scalare001.jpg
> 
> This piece apearance is very close to Altum angel except the mouth portion.
> Nice Angel fish


It's a funny thing, observing and trying to decide, isn't it derekchia ? It looks generally a bit like altum, enough to be sold as altum, and people could buy it only to find out, if they ask around on different forums online, that it isn't, it's obviously not.
If you take any section of that fish pic, it doesn't match altum. All together, though, visually, generally, it is not so very far away from altum, as various wild or wild-descended-types of angelfish go. 

Looking at the posterior edge of the tail fin, the arc is not the same arc as altum, for instance.
However, the tail has reddish-ocher stripes, so it bears a resemblance, _in another_ _characteristic_ , to altum tail. 
Yet even on that tail fin striping, which is a "matching" characteristic, it is different from altum, in several ways. 

Anyhow, the tools we have been given by the professionals are not sufficient ( even for those of us most familiar with altum ), to use in an attempt to draw any conclusions at all. That's "the bottom line", as far as I can tell !

We have to rely on having a good "eye" for the fish. I think the professionals operate under these same conditions or terms, and only confirm by factual basis what they already presume.
By "factual", I mean that they produce figures and ratios and so on through measurements of various types which confirm what they already have perceived before measuring.

And by "we", I mean both we hobbyists, as well as some people who we have knowledge of, people who have spent more time in the water with altum in various locations, than any foreigner has. Some are biologists, for all that _that_ matters. 

These other close observers of the fish, in nature, have noticed differences in the Orinoco populations too. 

They consider the differences to be minor, so minor that if presented with only one fish, only the most experienced can discern differences in _amount_  of variation in any characteristic of the type such as Heiko talks about in various Orinoco altum, in order to hazard reasonable guesses as to which population, which river, the fish came from.



I think lots of hobbyists might agree that, from our point of view, we can see differences fish to fish, of our own fish, and from owner to owner, tank to tank environments, but cannot see that there are differences which apply across the board, for any single fish picked out. Every altum characteristic is there, but to differing intensity or degree.



I also think most scientists and interested hobbyists consider all the Orinoco altum to be altum. Professor Taphorn, as well as other professors in various fields, call them _Pterophyllum altum_. So that makes it correct for any of us _to consider_ all the Orinoco "altum_-like"_ fish_, as "Pterophyllum altum" at this time.

_*Heiko,*
_ 
There is a problem, however, once "they" assign the perspective for us and themselves to view, that any particular difference can be considered '_"insignificant_", merely because of lack of a big variation from the norm. The specimens from various locations_ (or from the same location )_ might look exactly the same, visually indistinguishable to ANYONE, and yet not interbreed in the wild. 

Differences have been found using DNA barcoding, within a population - a flock of birds. When tracked, these birds that showed different DNA types chose similar mates. The flock was then divided up into several species. 

"Species " is not the important word here. THE point is, that those different but visually-identical birds in the same flock, don't interbreed in the wild.


If we have fish that don't interbreed in the wild ( even if captured close together - or look virtually identical ), wouldn't that count , in our tank-breeding efforts ? ...and count as to if we consider it all one species or not ?

So far the other scientists together have the support of the widespread commoner observations on this fish, but Heiko may be correct in the end.


So an insignificant or zero variation from visual norm can be all the difference in the world - but conversely, a wide variation is not necessarily a significant difference.



_ 
Problems arise too, when measuring. We can see how the shape of the fish ( and thus lots of measurements and ratios ) may change during it's life from a baby altum import,till a 3 or 4 year old fish which is pairing off.

Even the characteristic altum _notch_ ( one of the most recognizable _landmarks )_, is, for a good portion of the fish's life, less altumish than the notch on an older false altum. 


Other problems arise because of environment that each fish and population faces during it's life, particularly in the egg to end of yolk absorbtion time. Different phenotypes arise then. e.g. fish that mature quickly, or later, depending particularly on conditions in early life. Body shapes and measurements and ratios therefore may be quite different, for fish of the same estimated age hatched in different dates in a season, or with yearly variations. This is apparently how they deal with varying conditions they meet upon entering life.
Not only that, but environmental conditions bind or tag the genetic material so that it is "permanently" changed, even in descendants. this is what the science of Epigenetics is finding out. What your grandfather had, feast or famine, as a teen ,may relate, seems to relate, in one population (studied long-term through birth death and cause of death records in context of good nutritional intake records) to your chances of developing diabetes. Same with what conditions the grandmothers had _in utero._ Scary. We're made to go back centuries in our understanding, to when they may have thought a trauma condition at birth or what you do as a teenager likely affects the grandchildren's phenotype and epigenetic state too. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html



Back to altum vs. false altum:

Instead of looking at Volume # 3 first photo, of real vs, false altum, in the same tank, look at the false altum in the photo and attempt to discern what characteristics, and what differences in these characteristics, exist, between false altum and scalare.
It seems almost every characteristic that separates altum from scalare also separates this fish from scalare...though maybe to a different degree.
. My adult Rio Negro scalare share the tell-tale notch ridge, even though the dorsal slopes invilved are not like altum, and they are not even that close to altum-like fish. But they have the subtle ridge that drops down then almost becomes a fold, where it forms the indentation.

This problem - of characteristics ( not only variations in the characteristic) - not being exclusive signs of one species or other, it runs through everything in this problem.

http://www.hagen.com/pdf/aquatic/NUT...TIC_NEWS_3.pdf


Back to ID for a minute now. check volume 3 drawings, if you are attempting to ID fish from there, look at the false altum drawing ( Rio Negro #2 and it can be seen that... 

this fish is not the fish in the tank photo as false altum . Also, the ventrals in the Wallace drawing are in a varied position compared to Volume 3 Drawing #2 ..using pectoral fin bottom of the join to the flank as a reference point. 

And what a difference there is in dorsal profile, between the false altum in the tank, and Volume 3 Drawing #2 . the dorsal profile is so steep in the photo, and so steep in Wallace's drawing ! Not steep at all in volume 3.

What should this mean, as to our appraisal on "altum or not altum " , if using Volume 3 ? Not a complete dismissal. The other drawings are not far off on marking the landmarks , can help as general guide for species. It's not, however, usable, to help us see the differentiation Heiko has intended to make clearer. 

...to be continued ?

Guys, we can do this like a wikifishia project, and Heiko, wouldn't it be a blast to do a fishywiki science lab on B.O.L.D. systems with your audiences, during your travels ...it costs not a whole lot to have our fish photographed measured and tested for barcode. Then compared and species differences estimated automatically by program, against scalare.

Just a piece of ventral fins or whatever. Even an expensive country costs only $60 for materials, $30 in cheaper countries. I'd certainly pay to have my kid involved in real science, bringing in preserved sample, and learning how the software handles the decisions !
What an education that would be. Personally, I'd pay multiple times the real costs so that my kid and two kids in a poor country could participate.



Let's start a little science revolution and bring in kids and everyone to real science. It would be something that no museum ever does. It could be not only for altum or wild scalares we have, but for sunfish or invasive goldfish, or gouramis or catfish, whatever kids can catch locally too! Plus it's not that tough sometimes to get a couple of known-chain-of-possession, exact and proper locale-recorded samples included for backup. We have fish friends like Ed and his pal Wil to pester. http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewto...?p=15359#15359


Seasons Greetings to everyone, and Have a Great Year ! Help our children learn to love science; they'll be needing it more than we did. We coasted.
Dave

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## Heiko Bleher

Hi dave,

just saw you long text now.

Just shortly: we are working on DNA of those I collected in Novemb/December and we will have some nice detailed photso so people can identify their P. altum on my home page soon. Just to busy with expeditions and conferences around thew orld (just came back a couple of days ago from India expedition) to keep it all up. So far the Philippine reserach abstarcts are in, the championships and lectures, now we will place abstracts of the two Amazon expedition, then the India expedition-abstract, the seminars and judging in Chennai...

All the best and thanks again,

always

Heiko
www.aquaptress-bleher.com

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## raglan

Hello, Heiko

I knew that of the scientists it had to be you to bring some evidence, no one else. I should say, _again_ bring good modern evidence on these fish in the right light for the first time.
thanks always,
Dave

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## stormhawk

I took time going through that PDF with the articles by Heiko and the drawing done by Natasha. Very good drawing guide showing the different markings etc., but the pictures showing the "Rio Negro altum" and the real P. altum side by side, at first glance most people will tend to think they are the same fish.

Since it is such a pain to properly identify one's fish in the aquarium as being either P. altum or some other "fake" wannabe altum strain, just keep Pt. leopoldi. You get wild fish and you have no need to worry about whether they're the real deal or not.

In post no. 21 in this thread by Reebok4190, the first picture shows a fish with a blotch just behind the eye, which matches Khardina's drawing in the Nutrafin PDF. The gill cover's shape is not clearly seen though. So, is it really an altum, or a "scalare" like what Heiko says?

I read too with interest on Page 3 of the Nutrafin PDF, where Heiko states:




> 2. P. leopoldi (Gosse, 1963), King
> Leopold III’s (of the Belgians) angelfish, is
> the only one of the three species to have a
> slightly to strongly down-turned snout, and
> is found only in the central Amazon basin as
> well as in the lower Rio Negro. It can also
> be recognised by its striking large black
> shoulder spot. The only one of the three
> with such a marking. *This species is, however,
> ...


Yes, indeed P. leopoldi is uncommon in the trade, but it has been bred before. There is an article by Alec McFarlane which was published in TFH magazine in July 1990. The Nutrafin PDF was made in 2003 as dated on the document, yet a breeding account existed since 1990, which Heiko missed.

For those interested, I have made a scan of my copy of the breeding account for Pt. leopoldi. If any one here on AQ wants it, just PM me with your email. Or you can just read the account on Finarama.  :Smile:

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## Heiko Bleher

Hi,

yes I know, at the time I wrote the article for NA I did not have Alec's breeding article available, that is why I wrote "as far as I know", it had not been bred in othe rplaces, that I knew and Alec informed me afterwards, when it was printed already. Sorry, but impossible to know it all and every single breeder in the world...

Best regards

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com

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## stormhawk

I understand Heiko. We are all still awaiting your exhaustive study on all the known Angelfish species. I just read an article on Finarama regarding the "Peruvian Altums", which mentions about a farm escape and thus their purportedly establishment in the Rio Nanay due to this event.

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