# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  Grindal worm cultures

## RonWill

Hi all,

As some of you may already know, I'm a live-food advocate and prefer to feed worms and bugs to my fishes. Most of the time, culturing 'em creepy crawlies are fun and educational (for my kids).

I love tubifex too but many will not agree to it, owing to tendencies of causing disease outbreaks. FWIW, almost all my killies are spoilt brats and refuses flakes or pellets... so for them, tubifex is a staple diet.

Microworm and vinegar eel cultures (VEC) are fine for very young frys.

Tubifex is great for mature fishes... but what about older 1cm frys? Sheessh... I dislike chopping up tubifex or *Red Wigglers*, so *grindal worms* is an appropriate size in-between!

As with most cultures, except VEC, it takes time to maintain and re-sub multiple cultures, and it's precisely this extra time that I don't have. Caring for frys, admiring the vibrant colors of my fishes or listening to music from my LPs (yes... records, those big black plastics), is what I'd prefer to do.

That said, it was fortunate that the grindal cultures were resilient enough to be revived, even against total neglect, but I really need a safety net.

Right now, I've about 12 small cultures that has sufficient worms to restart another culture and a small amount of fresh cocopeat will be provided to those who are game to try. I think the best part of my 'offer' is that it is free!

Ok ok... I hear skeptics whispering that there's no free lunch. There's a 'catch', if you can call it that, and it's a open invitation to be part of a 'live-food culture network'. In time, I hope this network is what we killie-keepers can turn to in times of need (unexpected boom of frys, etc). 

What I do request, is to be updated; should cultures crash, when members no longer wish to maintain it, or has re-subbed and distributed more cultures (don't be shy, just tell me).

This invitation is also extended to our overseas friends, as mentioned in some earlier threads and I'll do what I can to ensure safe receipt of the cultures.

If there're no other takers, besides Storm and Zul, I'll be throwing this offer out to AQ to clear my small cultures and if there're reasons why fellow forumers feel that this initiative isn't feasible, please advise.

Perhaps I should also mention that those with squirmish spouses should get the "A-OK" from them before hopping onboard (seriously tho, these grindals aren't that disgusting or foul smelling).

Apologies for the long post but I look forward to your participation.

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## Debbbear

Ron,
I would like to be counted in :Smile: . I do have VEC and microworms that I would be happy to share with someone, too.
I" think" my partner won't mind, he never goes to the pantry,so what is hiding in there is my secert.  :Laughing:  the children are used to Mom's strange things on the shelf...but I must remember to tell them what it is, so that they don't holler, Mom," what's this new stuff?"  :Rolling Eyes:  
Deb Bear

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## RonWill

Hiya Deb,

There's a local source amongst forumers with VEC & MW, so I needn't trouble you for that.

What would be great is White Worms (WW) but I know they won't survive the journey here (been there, done that). Besides, our climate is simply too warm for these WWs to be productive and the fridge isn't quite my domain  :Laughing:  

I'll need to know what weather you're in, so I can pack/insulate accordingly. Email me your mailing address and I'll zap a culture over.

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## Eric Yeo

Ron, count me in too.

Eric Yeo

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## Debbbear

What would be great is White Worms (WW) but I know they won't survive the journey here (been there, done that). Besides, our climate is simply too warm for these WWs to be productive and the fridge isn't quite my domain  :Laughing:  

Ron, would you consider putting the WW in a small cooler with an ice block?We can get a gel type of ice pack that doesn't make a mess, when thawed out just put back in the freezer.You could also use two soda bottles ,fill half full then freeze and then alternate between the two bottles to keep the cooler COOL. Just a thought.....
The weather around here is in the upper 60'sF,nightime is 40F
Address: Debra Bear 9241 Green Branch Rd Willards Md 21874 USA
Thanks, Ron
Deb Bear
Ps:I have a small foam cooler that ,if i would put a gel pack in with a small starter.Perhaps it would make it :wink:

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## jkillis

Ron, possible to count me in?

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## RonWill

> Ron, possible to count me in?


Jennifer,
Of course it's possible. Just email me with mailing details and I'll pack it up for you.

To make life just a little easier, I'll include some fresh media and oat meal.

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## RonWill

> You could also use two soda bottles ,fill half full then freeze and then alternate between the two bottles to keep the cooler COOL. Just a thought.....


Debra, here's a penny for that thought :wink:. I suppose one could swap 'bottled ice',but it's gonna be more work than it is feasible.

There was a nice wine chiller I saw over the weekend but it's almost a full-sized fridge, which I think is more appropriate for restaurant use. I might consider a used bar-counter-sized chiller, if the price is right.




> Ps:I have a small foam cooler that ,if i would put a gel pack in with a small starter.Perhaps it would make it :wink:


It sounds like you've got WW culture going, so what are you feeding them? Would love to hear some 1st hand experience on maintaining these wormies.

The foam cooler might work, but from what articles I've read so far, the culture's productivity starts dropping when temp hits 26ºC (approx 79ºF) while the average temp on our little island home hovers between 27~31ºC. Thanks for the offer tho.

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## Debbbear

Ron,
Your right on the fact that WW like the cold! I keep them in the garage in the winter it can get very cold out there but as long as I keep them from freezing hard they survive.In the summer I have to bring them in to the refrigerator.
I feed them baby mixed ceral with a little milk to make the cereal wet,but not soupy wet or sometimes I blend up veggies that are going bad in the frig.Do not over feed where it gets moldy they don't like mold. I take a walk to our woods for the dirt to raise them in,If you get the dirt in the winter ,there are no problems with mites.They really are easy to grow.
Deb Bear

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## RonWill

Deb, I'm consolidating these little grindals together so that you get more worms in the packet and should be going out beginning of next week.

As for the WWs, I'll take up your offer when I can find a cheap compact cooler or bar-counter mini fridge.

There're also some mites (harmless to humans) I'm ridding of, by flooding the media and letting the mites overflow out of the container, or I just torch them while they're jumping around.

Jennifer, have you sent me your address? By 'Pearl of the Orient', I take it that you're from Hong Kong?

To the rest who've expressed interest, I'll try and arrange for collection next Saturday afternoon about 4pm (I get off work around 3)... and oh... partaking in microworm fondue is not compulsory!  :Laughing: 

My home is at Choa Chu Kang and for those who find it inconvenient, I can bring the cultures down to my work place along Balestier Road.

I'm also reverting the status of this thread from 'Announcement' to 'Normal', and will be posting to AQ soon. Those who caught this thread late can still contact me via email.

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## Debbbear

Thanks, Ron
I will let you know when they arrive.
If you find a cooler,I'm only an e-mail away.You really need to have whiteworm wantons added to your menu.  :Laughing:  
Deb Bear

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## stormhawk

hello Ron, seems u stay pretty near to me. i live in bukit batok and going to CCK isn't a problem for me. it would be good if u could pass me your contact number. mine is [x] . just gimme a ring or sms when u can and tell me when i should go collect the worms. i'd appreciate it alot  :Smile:  

oh yes, by the way, during weekdays i'm not free cos i've got OT till 8+ at night. my unit is undergoing a major repair exercise so i can't collect the cultures until the weekend arrives. :wink:

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## RonWill

Sure thing Storm, it's nice to have more killie friends putting up in the west and I'm trying to arrange for grindal collection on Saturday late afternoon since Sunday is family day, and I usually work past 10pm on weekdays.

Those who're getting their grindal sandwiches...  :Laughing:  
Debra
Jennifer - I've not received your mailing address
Sia Meng
Zulkifli
Fazdli
Rashid
Eric Yeo
Stormhawk (think it's time I have a name to that moniker :wink: )
... (did I miss out anyone? Gan, is that culture thriving or do you need another one?)

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## RonWill

A quick one...

Debra, I consolidated 4 cultures into a worm-tight box with damp media on Sunday but I suspect that damp cocopeat don't hold oxygen well... and by Monday, the grindals turned to mush. 

I repacked the worms sparsely now with just a little bit of the old media and more air space. A small packet of fresh cocopeat is enclosed, so you can use it as samples when looking for it at nurseries. Parcel went Tuesday, Oct 14th. 

I'm scheduling collection date on Oct 18th between 4-6pm. Address details will be delivered soon. Check your message box.

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## jkillis

Sorry Ron. I had already replied your PM.  :Smile:

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## Debbbear

Ron,
I recieved the grindal culture the 21st. Oooooh, it stank  :Sad:  the poor worms were mush.
I wonder what would happen if one used the breathable bags? 
I will buy the culture here in the US, so that if someone else on this side of the world needed a start quick, I'm here ready to share.
I have breathble bags, when I get a start going I could ship to you to see what happens. 
Thanks,Ron

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## RonWill

> I recieved the grindal culture the 21st. Oooooh, it stank  the poor worms were mush.


wow! and to think that having more air-space *might* increase the chances of survival for the wormies. Oh well... back to the drawing board... I suppose I could modify a larger container by adding some breathing 'windows' and see if that works any better (just don't smell what your eyes can't see :wink: ).

I could also send a pretty dried out culture that *may* contain grindal egg capsules. I know that vermiculture/composting worms lay egg capsules and suspect that these are pretty much like killie eggs, going dormant through a dry period, and 'hatching' when conditions improves (that's the 'theory' bit, I could also be wrong!).

Ok... smell aside, could you detect anything moving?? (sorry Deb, if you felt faint after taking a wiff of that!  :Opps:  ) and honestly, I wouldn't mind sending the grindals on another trip.




> I wonder what would happen if one used the breathable bags? 
> I will buy the culture here in the US, so that if someone else on this side of the world needed a start quick, I'm here ready to share.
> I have breathble bags, when I get a start going I could ship to you to see what happens.


Are you referring to those from Kordon (or something like that)? Breathing bags is not a common sight here since travel time within our little island is relatively short, but if you managed to get hold of a thriving grindal culture, I'd be interested to see if anything still twitches after the trip (surprisingly, I KNOW microworms did survive shipping from the USA, in a ziploc bag and padded envelope). If your grindals do become prolific, let's exchange notes!

BTW, I'm curious... are you maintaining any of the _Chromaphyosemion/Aphyosemion_ species?

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## Debbbear

Hi Ron,
Several of the children were standing around me when I recieved your package,excited to see what mom had coming this time.When I opened the lid, there was one big peeU!Then I was silently left alone.  :Laughing:  There was nothing moving  :Sad:  but I did take some of the culture soil and put in on some new compost soil,just to see what happens. Do you always use coco fiber for grindal?
I think it would be fun to learn, to know how to send grindal worms internationally. If you want to send some drier culture to see what happens that is fine.I will put all containers on the top shelf in pantry,only the mice and I will know what's up there  :Twisted Evil:  The bags are the Kordon kind,I like them for shipping killies.If you would like to try them some time let me know.
I have the Aphy. striatums 93/29 and the Scriptaphyosemion cauveti/Kinda.
Take care,

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## RonWill

> Several of the children were standing around me when I recieved your package,excited to see what mom had coming this time.When I opened the lid, there was one big peeU!Then I was silently left alone.


Ha ha... talk about quick exits! Sorry to have disappointed the little ones... perhaps I should have enclosed a few jerkies!  :Laughing:  




> There was nothing moving  but I did take some of the culture soil and put in on some new compost soil,just to see what happens. Do you always use coco fiber for grindal?


Yeah Deb, that's a smart move instead of thrashing it. There might be egg capsules that survived the lack of O2. I'd probably add just one oat flake to the mix, in case some wormlets (baby worms?? :wink: ) do hatch.

I prefer cocopeat for a couple of reasons;
Firstly, my vermiculture uses the bulk of it and it's cheap. Old coco, vermicast (worm sh*t) and 'worm tea' (worm pee) goes a long way to fertilize my plants.

Coco has good drainage and occasionally, I stir up the whole culture to minimize anaerobic nasties from booming at the media's lower layers.

When a culture goes south, I recycle the 'spoilt coco' into my herb planter boxes (peppermint, basil and mini roses love it! Rosemary isn't too crazy about it tho and a good bushy rosemary is helluva difficult to find here!).

I used peat before my vermiculture got going and when I maintained more nothos, but it gets acidic real quick and worm activity is drastically reduced.

Coco is pretty neutral and a monthly pinch of lime avoids a pH crash.

Jianyang/Rashid (aka Stormhawk) might attempt the soil-less or sponge method and since I've not tried that, we'll have to wait for his good news. What I understand is that the size of the sponge pores makes a big difference.

I did try fresh compost once but production was kinda slow. Most of my cultures tend to be on the very-damp side, where you can almost see the coco glittering, and compost fouls up pretty fast when soggy.

Do update me when you manage to get grindals booming on compost. (I'm experimenting now with a bone-dry culture to see if my 'theory' of dormant egg capsules is correct)




> I think it would be fun to learn, to know how to send grindal worms internationally. If you want to send some drier culture to see what happens that is fine.


Yup, and I wanna know too. Let me work on 'reviving' the dry one and see how that goes. Meanwhile, I'm giving more thought about 'breathing windows'... and how to keep the worms IN.




> The bags are the Kordon kind,I like them for shipping killies.If you would like to try them some time let me know. I have the Aphy. striatums 93/29 and the Scriptaphyosemion cauveti/Kinda.


Cool... yeah, I'm game with Kordon (and I've not seen one before).

But my ears are perked up!... you ship killies? How's the survival rate of livestock with these bags? Too bad, I'm not gutsy to attempt buying live fishes since our weather gets pretty hot, and the snail-mailman often leave their mail under the sun.

There's this chap who operates from Nigeria and exports wild-caught killies... but these ain't cheap and I'm not confident enough with our postal system. I should be very contented with just viable eggs and not half-baked ones  :Crying:  .

Deb, I don't think we have striatums amongst the local keepers here and would be absolutely delighted if I can buy any excess eggs from you. I'm liken to compare the striatum with zebra danios, with their dashing lines of red dots.

I also did a 'google search' for _Scriptaphyosemion cauveti_ Kinda, and WOW! it's beautiful!... (drool). How does the _Scriptaphyosemion_ differ from the 'regular' _Aphyosemion_ and do they require cool waters? If you have pics of those jewels you're maintaining, I'd love to take a peek at 'em.

I'll get off the soapbox and update you when I see the dry cultures breathing new life.

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## A.Rashid

Hi Ronnie,

so have your microworm culture flourish? if not I can still give you summore. gimme more gimme more give me summore...

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## RonWill

> so have your microworm culture flourish? if not I can still give you summore. gimme more gimme more give me summore...


That little pinch of MWs I took from you is sufficient to kick start a culture. MWs are prolific, crawling all over the container wall and I've already started to harvest it for the Badis frys. 

I'm using oatmeal now but prefer potato flakes (smells better). Hopefully the supermarket has it when I do the groceries tomorrow. Another 2 sub-cultures should be enough to tide me over until the frys are big enough for grindals. Thanks for the offer tho, much appreciated.

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## Debbbear

Howdy Ron,
I think that I will try the coco fiber,the water here is very,very soft and with using peat I have to use Equilibrum so that that pH doesn't go to low.
I will send you some bags with some eggs if the weather holds out. It is starting to get cold,was down to 26F last night.  :Sad:  
I have had good luck with shipping killies in those bags, haven't lost a fish yet. I can only ship in the US for I don't have the paper work for out of the USA.
>How does the Scriptaphyosemion differ from the 'regular' Aphyosemion <
The eggs tend to hatch quicker on the cauveti than the striatums,but I keep them at the same tempature,72F.If the eggs are kept warm they can hatch in about 10 days.It is harder to ship their eggs long distances.I did send some to Siameng to see what happens.
I don't have pictures of the fish, yet. Hubby got a new camera that I don't know how to work very good.My camera doesn't do fish,for it is just a cheap digital,But when I learn I will post  :Smile:

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## stormhawk

hello people,

ah yes, talking about the sponge method. i've yet to try it out cos my worm population ain't booming right now. they seem to be growing in numbers kinda slowly. once i've got enough of these buggers crawlin around i'll attempt the sponge method.

by the way, how's the VEC ronnie? got enough worms for the babies? hope it helps. u can return me the culture when you're done or your main culture's up and running.

deb, is it possible for someone here in SG with a license for importing live tropical fish, import directly from like say, a home breeder in the states? (that is, the home breeder in question does not have a permit or paperwork to do so?)

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## RonWill

> I think that I will try the coco fiber,the water here is very,very soft and with using peat I have to use Equilibrum so that that pH doesn't go to low.


I'll use the internet's favourite disclaimer; YMMV! :wink:, but alot of guys over at KillieTalk uses cocopeat as well, whether it's in pellet or brick form.




> I will send you some bags with some eggs if the weather holds out. It is starting to get cold,was down to 26F last night.


Thanks a zil, Deb. I can wait till weather warms up and do let me know how much to remit for 'em eggs.




> >How does the Scriptaphyosemion differ from the 'regular' Aphyosemion <
> The eggs tend to hatch quicker on the cauveti than the striatums,but I keep them at the same tempature,72F.If the eggs are kept warm they can hatch in about 10 days.It is harder to ship their eggs long distances.I did send some to Siameng to see what happens.


Non-annual eggs can get critical with postal hiccups but let's hope Sia Meng did ok with his goodie bag. BTW, were the eggs packed in peat or water?

Alot of us are grappling with digital format, so take your time and we'll be looking forward to viewing them.

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## RonWill

> by the way, how's the VEC ronnie? got enough worms for the babies? hope it helps. u can return me the culture when you're done or your main culture's up and running.


JianYang, I'm experimenting raising the 3rd badis spawn on a combo of VEC and paramecia which I'm culturing from starters in spaghnum moss. It's my first time with paramecia, so I hope that's what I'm feeding the frys!!  :Laughing:  

I've also revert back to the 'dirty tank' approach and will be done with VEC by week's end. Will SMS you regarding return arrangements.

For those who're curious about this paramecia/moss thingie, it's what I read up from here, while researching on paramecia and rotifers, as first foods for tiny tiny frys.

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## Debbbear

Stormhawk wrote:
<deb, is it possible for someone here in SG with a license for importing live tropical fish, import directly from like say, a home breeder in the states? (that is, the home breeder in question does not have a permit or paperwork to do so?)>

Here is a summary of importing fish here in the US. http://www.characin.com/carey/articl...ort_rules.html
There is some shipping to Canada without papers,but is done on the shady side,(what you don't know does't hurt theory ).But I can't bring myself to do that.I don't what to ruin the good service and friendship at the post office.They no longer ask what's in my packages.If I have live fish coming,they will not leave the package in the mailbox,if I am not home they just leave me a note saying that they have the package.
Ron,I put the eggs in peat for they say it slows the hatching process.
You owe nothing,just happy to share the beauty of killies. Lots of people have shared with me so I'm just passing it on  :Smile:

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## stormhawk

thanks for the info deb :wink: 

anyway, regarding the grindals i got from ronnie, the starter culture is still full of worms and the main culture is really taking off now. i just checked on them last night and gosh, they were really swarming on the top of the peat in one big spreading white wriggling mass.  :Very Happy:  

i guess in about a few days more i can harvest some to start with my sponge culture. :wink:

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## RonWill

Debra,
The bone-dry grindal culture is really really dead. I tried reviving it for the past 2 weeks (?)... no go. So I guess my 'theory' of resting worm egg-capsules isn't quite realistic.

Anyway, the last 2 cultures, both Jennifer's and yours, are going out 1st thing next week (wouldn't want the cultures sitting in the PO's holding room over the weekend!).

For the rest of you who've gotten the grindals, how are the wormies doing?? (JianYang, I know yours is already booming!)

The said grindal offer to AQ won't be posted.

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## A.Rashid

Ronnie... my culture seem to be "dead" no progress at all... no increase in population.

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## Debbbear

Ron,
The culture you sent to me is very dead, too.  :Sad:  
I do have a culture started for I had order some Fp. nigerianus P82. The Fella that sold them to me added a starter of grindal worms!A nice add on  :Very Happy:  
So there is no hurry for you to send, if someone else needs them. I still want to try those kordan breather bags to see to if they would keep grindals worms happy while being shipped where ever. I shipped out a shipment of kribensises to HI,after a five days journey,were in great shape.So that gives me hope for the grindal worms.It seems to take 8 days for things to go priority mail from here to you folks.
Enough rattling... and back to working on lunch.

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## Debbbear

Ron,
The culture you sent to me is very dead, too.  :Sad:  
I do have a culture started for I had order some Fp. nigerianus P82. The Fella that sold them to me added a starter of grindal worms!A nice add on  :Very Happy:  
So there is no hurry for you to send, if someone else needs them. I still want to try those kordan breather bags to see to if they would keep grindals worms happy while being shipped where ever. I shipped out a shipment of kribensises to HI,after a five days journey,were in great shape.So that gives me hope for the grindal worms.It seems to take 8 days for things to go priority mail from here to you folks.
Enough rattling... and back to working on lunch.

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## RonWill

> The culture you sent to me is very dead, too.  
> I do have a culture started for I had order some Fp. nigerianus P82. The Fella that sold them to me added a starter of grindal worms!A nice add on


Deb, there's nothing moving in the media where you dumped the supposedly-dead grindals? Oh well... we'll see if round 2 gets better.

Cool seller, and very thoughtful too. How were the grindals packed?

Anyway, I have sufficient grubs to go around, so I'm packing yours Monday morning, but let's wait for the weather to warm up before we try those Kordan. Is 'Global Priority' the fastest option available from USPS?

Dear all,
I was feeling trigger-happy with the digi cam, so I thought the culture-newbies might wanna know what grindals look like and how large they are, compared to a fish fry.


This container of grindals was harvested from only one culture. BIG pic here


A closeup of grindals, waiting to be rinsed before using a turkey baster to suck 'em up.

Here's 8mm _Ap BIT_ Lagos fry feasting on grindals, which are a very nice bite size.

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## Debbbear

Ron. 
The grindals were in a plastic bag with dirt, but it only took three days for it to arrive.
Yes, there is a quicker way to ship out and that is Globel Express which starts out at $15.00.
Nice pictures, sure glad my killies and computer are in different rooms. Don't want my killies thinking that computers are made out of grindals  :Very Happy: 
Well, I must go to work on this patience thing and get some pictures taken....

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## RonWill

> The grindals were in a plastic bag with dirt, but it only took three days for it to arrive.


Deb and Jennifer, the cultures were sent out morning of Monday 10th, and I've done it slightly differently. Let me know the outcome.

Gimme time to upload some pics of what I did and hopefully you folks will see the logic of it.




> Yes, there is a quicker way to ship out and that is Globel Express which starts out at $15.00.


Not cheap, but dead eggs and fishes ain't fun either!




> Nice pictures, sure glad my killies and computer are in different rooms. Don't want my killies thinking that computers are made out of grindals


now... if only you can get those killies to work on the keyboard, I bet we'll know our fishes much better! :wink: 




> Well, I must go to work on this patience thing and get some pictures taken....


yes... please do. Practice makes perfect (and I promise I won't laugh!). Happy shooting!

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## kennedy_ng

Hi ronnie would like to have a culture of the grindals if you still have them, where and when can i collect.






Regards,
kennedy ng

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## RonWill

> would like to have a culture of the grindals if you still have them, where and when can i collect.


Hi Kennedy, we're all gearing up for our 1st gathering and both cultures, grindals and microworms, will be made available FOC to members of this forum.

Just so you know, that these are starter cultures... which means there's only a small number of worms and are *not* immediately ready for harvesting. To get more of these worms, you'll have to do your part in maintaining and raising the cultures.

Come join us and I'll share with all of you, a couple of new things I've been trying out!

Be there or be square! :wink:

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## gweesm1

Hi all,

Since Ronnie had passed the culture to me, I feel responsible to pass it around. As such I will be preparing 5 starter cultures (or more if you guys express interest) to be distributed on the day of gathering.

Please do not call me at this moment as I am trying very hard to study for my examinations, drop me a PM or write to me at [email protected]

Ronnie,
The cultures are growing strong and the best part is my wife has not discovered it.  :Laughing: 
I started a new and larger culture last week and it seems to be growing well too! BTW I love that Turkey Baster, it is really additive!!
regards

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## RonWill

> Please do not call me at this moment as I am trying very hard to study for my examinations


Sia Meng,
For now, forget about the sub-culturing. I've soaked enough cocopeat for about 20 starter cultures (I just hope I have that much worms!).

You have better things to do... like feed your killies and do well in that exam. I'll let you carry the grindal torch when I retire! :wink: 




> BTW I love that Turkey Baster, it is really additive!!


Glad you like it. Just don't get too kinky and use it on the Mrs., you hear?  :Twisted Evil:  

Seriously tho, I find it indispensible and will feel pretty lost without it. Treat it well and it will give you many more years of service.

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## RonWill

Debra and Jennifer,

IIRC, both cultures were sent via Express on NOV 10th 2003 and it's easily 12 days now, with no news.

I'm beginning to worry for another "mush pack", so please busy your kids elsewhere when you DO recieve the parcel. Shoot me a note regardless of how it... urm... look or smell  :Opps:  .

Sorry if it doesn't turn out as intended, but I did try...

Given such "express speed" within both postal systems, I'm beginning to think twice about sending off non-annual eggs, even if I had them in peat to delay the incubation.

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## jkillis

Hi Ron,

I'd received your culture on Friday. Thanks.
Emmm... The box in there looks dry. I saw some worms moving around on the cover. Ron, sorry for being "culture illiterate", what must I do to grow the culture with those stuff you send to me?  :Opps:

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## RonWill

> Hi Ron,
> 
> I'd received your culture on Friday. Thanks.
> Emmm... The box in there looks dry. I saw some worms moving around on the cover. Ron, sorry for being "culture illiterate", what must I do to grow the culture with those stuff you send to me?


Good grief Jennifer! I thought you had already read up on culturing these worms!

IIRC (if I recall correct), the parcel included some sachets of oatmeal and a bag of coir/cocopeat.

There's a brief guide at Kwek Leong's site or you can also try here. You can use the more effective cocopeat to replace Vermiculite/old peat combo for the worm media.

Some quick notes;
1. Soak the cocopeat for an approx an hour, then drain excess water.
2. Spread a layer of the wet cocopeat into a container that has a ventilated cover, to prevent fruit flies from contaminating the culture.

The grindals you received came in this container...

The grindals are sandwiched between a damp bottom media (so that the worms don't dry out) and a dry upper spaghnum moss, to allow some air-space (so they don't suffocate and die!).

3. Remove the dry spaghnum moss and toss the whole damp media onto the freshly wetted cocopeat. If there're worms crawling on the container wall, use a gentle spray of water to flush it onto the cocopeat.

If the worms have crawled onto the spaghnum moss, soak the moss briefly, shake it in the water and try to retrieve the worms with a eye-dropper and return them to new bedding.

4. The worms need time to adjust themselves but they still need to eat. During this time of 'adjustment', don't overfeed. Add about 2 flakes of the oatmeal ON TOP of the media and dampen it. Feed again when food is consumed.

5. Before you keep the grindal box in a cool dark place (like under your fish stand), make sure that the cocopeat is not flooded with water or too dry. The surface of the cocopeat should glisten slightly.

Let me know if I haven't answered all your doubts.

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## RonWill

Jennifer, I forgot to add this pic...


This is one of two grindal cultures I sent to Debra in the 2nd shipment. She's living further away and I wanted to experiment a little with different ways of packing the worms.

This is how your worms look like before I laid the dry spaghnum moss over them.

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## Debbbear

Hip..Hip... HURRAY!!!!!  :Very Happy:  
Ron,
I received the cultures today.Oh, there was same wiggling going on in the bigger dish.  :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:  I found most of them in the bottom of the second bowl. I added the coco fiber to the bottom bowl,rinsed off the sides,then added oatmeal. The little bowl was dry.I did add water to that just to see what happens, with a few oatmeal flakes.
Will let you know what happens in a week.
Thanks, Ron!!
Oh, yes, the children were still excited to see if the worms were alive.My husband and I catered a farmer's auction today,when we came home they flew out the door with " Mom, you got a package from Mr. Ronnie Lee again!Here open it". A knife was supplied and all heads poured over the box.  :Laughing:

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## RonWill

> Hip..Hip... HURRAY!!!!!


Same here too, Deb!  :Laughing:  

Ok... you should have 2 cultures with 'sandwiched' grindals;
One is damp, but with a ventilated bottom container + dry spaghnum on top. Another bottom container is there to make sure the grindals don't crawl out of the holes.

Second is dry cocopeat bottom + spaghnum. It should feel pretty dry but let's see if the worms survive the trip without much moisture.

In both cases, spaghnum is used to allow some air space and also to prevent the media from being tossed around.




> "Here open it". A knife was supplied and all heads poured over the box.


I suppose no one went "_pphhheeeeww!!_" this time and you weren't left alone.  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:  Did the kids manage to find the worms?

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## Debbbear

Oooh,No need to wait a week for a report  :Very Happy:  
I can not begin to tell how exciting that this morning has been!! When I checked the bowls there were worms wiggling in BOTH bowls.  :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:  
In the larger bowl , the grindals had eaten all flakes of oatmeal.In the smaller bowl, that was dry,are little grindals under the few flakes I had put in. 
Ron wrote > Did the kids manage to find the worms?<
Yes, They did! I had to shoo them back some so I could see what was in there myself.Nothing like fighting over a box of worms  :Laughing:   :Laughing:

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## jkillis

Thanks Ronnie. My worms are growing each day. I can't wait to see the whole container full of worms.  :Very Happy:

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## RonWill

Jennifer and Debra,

I'm very pleased with the results you girls are getting. Keep up with the maintenance and may your box be full of worms!

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## kc

Ronnie,

I'm thinking of breeding Grindal instead of microworm as M. worm is about the same size as Vinegar eels. I also understand that m. worm need to re-start every few weeks, it would be cheaper for keep vinegar eels instead. 

Please spare me some of your grindal worm.

PS. Your M.worm are doing ok but I think it's more economical to keep vinegar eels for emergency use and Grindal worm for feeding fry.

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## stormhawk

Ronnie, i'm experiencing a less than enthusiastic reproductive rate in the grindal culture that i have. i think i read somewhere that pH plays a role in the propagation of grindals. haven't measured the pH of the bedding but i see a whole lot of dark black-brownish "soft" areas in a circle around the centre of the culture.

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## RonWill

> I'm thinking of breeding Grindal instead of microworm as M. worm is about the same size as Vinegar eels. I also understand that m. worm need to re-start every few weeks, it would be cheaper for keep vinegar eels instead.


KC, there's no such thing as the perfect tiny worm. Vinegar eels swims all over but will gather in the upper reaches of the water, while microworms sink. Each serves it's own purpose and dependent on what frys you're trying to feed.

VEs are good for surface and mid-water feeders like _Pseudepiplatys annulatus_, epiplatys and panchax species. Their mouths are designed to grab that fallen insect and will only occasionally forage the tank's floor for food.

MWs will be good for very young aphyosemion fry, and even badis fry, which usually stay very close to the tank's bottom. It's only much later that the fry will feed near the surface.

While MWs will last about 2 months before a re-sub, VEs lasts much longer but somewhat inconvenient to harvest (I'll touch on that later in a new thread... Vinegar Eel 'Harvester'). Both will work if your fry tray has about an inch of water.




> PS. Your M.worm are doing ok but I think it's more economical to keep vinegar eels for emergency use and Grindal worm for feeding fry.


That's a safe way of doing things but try not to feed GWs to frys under 5mm since the average GW is about 2~4mm. A 1cm fry will have no problems tho.

Let's arrange via email for GW collection.

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## RonWill

> I'm thinking of breeding Grindal instead of microworm as M. worm is about the same size as Vinegar eels. I also understand that m. worm need to re-start every few weeks, it would be cheaper for keep vinegar eels instead. 
> 
> Please spare me some of your grindal worm.


Hi KC, I'm "upping" yet another thread, since my GWC are doing well and can afford to spare.

Some folks are dropping by this Saturday at 4pm and if you can make it, show up and you get your 'door prize' :wink: 

I'm extending this goodwill to fellow-forumers a 2nd time, which may be my last, since I'll be going full swing in nurturing my own so I can wean my killies off tubifex... ie. until I can culture tubies too!

As perviously mentioned, there's a catch and it still applies... (now it's your turn to go find what I've said! :wink: )

Let me know who's interested in GWCs, so that I can prepare enough.

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## Ptarmigan

Greetings to you all from a new subscriber !
I came here as a result of Kwek Leongs recent post on the PlantsList (APD) list about mosses.

This is a most interesting forum and I thank you all for some very interesting readings.
In particular I would like to thank Ron and others for these GrindalWorm posts.

I have been keeping/growing Whiteworm and Microworm for many many years ( more years than I care to remember !) with great sucess,,,but sadly I have never had much sucess with Grindal neither with soil, soil-less fibre nor with artificial (filter-floss) methods ( altough of the three the last method has been marginally better )
Your recent writings have inspired me to review my methods, especially with respect to air supply !

More reports about that later when I see how it goes,
meanwhile, keep up the good works and
thanks,
Malcolm,
in SW England.

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## RonWill

> Your recent writings have inspired me to review my methods, especially with respect to air supply !
> 
> More reports about that later when I see how it goes, meanwhile, keep up the good works and thanks,
> Malcolm,
> in SW England.


Dear Malcolm,
Let me extend a personal welcome to the forum and I'm happy to know that it's an enjoyable visit for you.

The synthetic-media method was the result of chasing down and waiting patiently for RJ to perfect his method, which took course over 3 years! What you see is a 'photo essay' of sorts, so that *anyone anywhere* can do it by referring to the pics... yes, even if they don't understand English.

Like yourself, I wasn't pleased with what meagre grindal worms I could harvest but thanks to RJ, I'm now a very happy fella and have converted all my conventional-media cultures to synthetic.

If something can work on paper, from the USA to Singapore, there's no reason you can't do it.

Debbie and another USA member are experimenting, along with a small local group of live-food advocates, and the results are encouraging.

In case you missed some of the pages, please click on the links; Introductory article, 1st Update and Current Status. BTW, you ought to know that the method was originally intended for whiteworms, but it works great for grindals as well!

When we share, good things happen! Let me know how you're getting on too, ya?

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## Ptarmigan

> In case you missed some of the pages, please click on the links; Introductory article, 1st Update and Current Status. BTW, you ought to know that the method was originally intended for whiteworms, but it works great for grindals as well!


 Yes, I had seen those pages as well, most interesting, thanks.

A little more background from me :-
I had been trying to grow the grindal in a few dozen small (9cm) and large (15cm) Petri dishes. The theory was that each day I could remove a dish from the top of the heap, harvest the worms, then I would replace the dish at the bottom of the heap, by the time it then took for it to reach the top again it would be ready for another harvest.
That was the theory !
But having read your infos it seems probable that the close fitting lids have not been allowing enough (any!) air.in, and also, being shallow containers, there is little void space as well.
I had been thinking of the grindal as being similar to microworm which I have always kept in containes with close fitting lids. ( Usually ex margerine tubs from the kitchen department.) If, instead, I now treat them more like my whiteworm cultures (much bigger boxes with air space and ventilation) I hope I may get better results.

Thanks for all your ideas. Yes,I'll let you know how it goes.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and wet :-)
Malcolm

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## RonWill

> A little more background from me :-
> I had been trying to grow the grindal in a few dozen small (9cm) and large (15cm) Petri dishes. The theory was that each day I could remove a dish from the top of the heap, harvest the worms, then I would replace the dish at the bottom of the heap, by the time it then took for it to reach the top again it would be ready for another harvest.
> That was the theory !


Malcolm, I've done that before... but that' the problem with theories... sometimes it doesn't work! Also, small cultures tend to crash more often and quite suddenly (just as a larger aquarium is often more stable and with less fluctuations).

From there, I went on to somewhat larger containers and still, I made no provisions for ventilation and that forced me to open the lids daily for air.

I soon tire from that mundane chore and thought about allowing air in, but disallowing visitors, like fruitflies!

Things improved a little after I completed my vermiculture and even that was based on ideas from the kind people at KillieTalk. If you're into vermi-composting, it might be worth a read (Warning! Twisted humor ahead!)




> But having read your infos it seems probable that the close fitting lids have not been allowing enough (any!) air.in, and also, being shallow containers, there is little void space as well.


BINGO! You got that right! It's AIR! Low gas transfer=low oxygen=worms dying=culture crashing.




> I had been thinking of the grindal as being similar to microworm which I have always kept in containes with close fitting lids. ( Usually ex margerine tubs from the kitchen department.)


I still have one of those old cultures using snap on lid for grindals cultured on a different sponge. It's a pathetic looking thing and wonder why I still keep it! It smells, there's no production to speak of and I have to open it daily.

Looking back, I was on my own and as I've said in those pages, I didn't understand a whole lot of what's going on. That pathetic culture will serve to remind me why I'm sharing this with you too.




> If, instead, I now treat them more like my whiteworm cultures (much bigger boxes with air space and ventilation) I hope I may get better results.


I'm sure you will. If I had the same low temp from where you are, I'll probably attempt whiteworms too. They're way bigger than grindals and better suited for larger adult fishes. Only problem is... to culture one, I'll need to keep it in a fridge, which isn't my domain... but that's another story! :wink: 




> Thanks for all your ideas. Yes,I'll let you know how it goes.
> I'm keeping my fingers crossed and wet :-)


You're welcomed. Just share the information and experience with those around you... that way, everyone benefits.

Remember this, it only takes a spark to get the fire going...

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## Debbbear

Ron,
Just a update on my cultures.I have two synthetic cultures growing. I am slowly going to get rid of the dirt ones. With the first synthetic culture, I tried to use filter floss as a way to keep the friut flys out. But they managed to wiggle in.The coffee filter taped on over the air holes is working so far.
Off subject....
Ron, you are not the only one on here that is paranoid!. In our area in two days time 72,000 chickens have been killed because of the Avian flu. We are *very nervous* hoping that we do not get it!We have 18,000 hens with 1,000 roasters on the farm here.

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## RonWill

Deb, don't be too quick to discard the old cultures, just store them elsewhere, lest Murphy's Law strikes unannounced.

I hit a glitch when I overlooked a very old peat/soil culture that was infested with spider mites, and in turn, did a number on my synthetic ones.

Made me wished I didn't procrastinated in getting a finer 'ventilation barrier'. Those damned bugs went right through the floss and teabags!* 

After the usual "flood & torch" routine, worm reproduction was affected and I've a colorful collection of Hairy, Slimey and Moe (sounds like the characters from 'God Father', but I'm talking about fungus & mold  :Laughing:  )

How is your coffee filter holding up?

*I'm gonna look for those water resistant and breathable bandaid (without the medicated pads). That ought to let the darn thing breathe and fine enough to prevent another infestation... unless those bugs sneak in from another gap!

Worst case scenario... I'll restart from scratch!  :Shocked:   :Shocked:  




> Off subject....


... only if it doesn't affect the supply of daphnia & tubifex but if confirmed that Malaysia is on the list, then it's very relevant (as in killies' food!).

According to the Malaysian Public Health Dept, there isn't an outbreak... yet (as on Feb 13th 2004). I'll be checking for their updates.

In one of their online papers, People's Daily headlined, _"Malaysia has no cases of bird flu: health minister"... that "The Malaysian health minister said on Jan. 27 that Malaysia has so far no reports of avian influenza, the H5N1 virus known as bird flu, either among poultry or humans."_ Let's hope it remains so!

Inevitably, there'll be those amongst us who will be wondering... why is Ronnie so excited over this bird flu?

Simple, should Avian Flu be confirmed, then supply of daphnia and tubifex will temporary cease, as these are harvested from the run-off of these farms, thus no collection=no fish food! (I'm willing to stand corrected if the facts prove otherwise)

Second, I raise a pair of miniature chicken at home... (enuff said! :wink: )

Hope it turns out ok for you and your feathered friends. 19,000 is still alot of incinerated birds!

<getting off the podium before someone clubs me with a chicken drum-stick!!  :Laughing:  >

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## timebomb

> We are *very nervous* hoping that we do not get it!We have 18,000 hens with 1,000 roasters on the farm here.


Debra, you mean roosters, don't you?

I did a quick calculation - In your farm, there are 18 hens for every rooster. Hmm, I wouldn't mind being a rooster if I can have so many hens  :Laughing: 

But seriously, I hope the avian flu doesn't reach your farm. I read in the news today that there's another outbreak in the US of A at Lancaster County farm. I hope that's not anywhere near you. 

My late parents were pig farmers when they settled in Singapore many years ago. And I remember the stories my mother used to tell about swine fever and how financially disastrous it can be when there's an outbreak. I don't know if chicken farmers do such things but my late mother said she will slaughter the pigs the moment they show signs of disease. A sick pig slaughtered when it's still living is still worth some money whereas one that dies of disease would be a total loss. 

Loh K L

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## Debbbear

> Debra, you mean roosters, don't you?


Thanks,Loh K L, for that correction!  :Very Happy:  



> Hmm, I wouldn't mind being a rooster if I can have so many hens


If one has that many hens they can become very  :Laughing:  *cocky*.
Lancaster County is about 3 hrs from us,but there is a farm in Sussex County that has it, that is only 15 miles down the road!We are disinfecting all vehicles,shoes and hands. We do have one thing to be thankful for is that it is not the same flu that is over your way. We have the H2 type.It only affects the chickens and not humans  :Exclamation: 
Now back to the subject  :Cool:  
Ron, I put three coffee filters togather and used packing tape around the edges to hold it on the lid for a tight seal.I hope that keeps the mites out.I believe it will the fruit flys,for I use them for the rinsing of BBS and they don't go through.I still am not sure of the mites for those buggers are really small!!I hate them more then the fruit flys.

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## Pulcher

Greetings from Canada.

I have read with great interest the use of the synthetic media for culturing the grindal worms. My soil cultured grindal worms are problematic, and the containers get infested with mites and other critters. During the winter months, my fishroom is quite cool -- perhaps 68 F (20 C) and production really slows down. During the summer, it is approximately 70-72 F (21-22 F) and they produce better.

My soil cultured white worms thrive under these conditions, but I think I would like to try the synthetic method with them as well. It look to be a much cleaner way to grow worms!

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## RonWill

Hello Andrew and we're glad that you found something useful in making your fish-keeping days a little easier.

FWIW, synthetic cultures can become infested with mites if there are mite-plagued cultures around... mine did. So start a new culture and store it somewhere else and make sure it's well sealed except for the ventilation 'window'. This window should also have a fine barrier to keep out mites. Coffee filters, empty tea bags, handkerchief, stockings (without the garter! :wink: ), breathable bandaid and even tissue paper comes to mind.

The 'Synthetic culture' article is fine-tuned by RJ, originally for white worms, so you can safely apply the method to your culture.

Glad to be of help, but please keep us updated... I would appreciate that.

Good luck and have fun!

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## Pulcher

I will first try the coffee filter trick to keep the mites out so I can grow enough 'critical mass' of worms to start a new culture.

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## jkillis

Ron, how do the mite looks like? I do have funny creeping insects in my container although it is fully air tight. Those insects even swims in water.

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## RonWill

hey Jennifer... long time no news! Glad you're still with us.

These mites are what I know as 'spider mites' which competes for food with the grindals or whiteworms. They're either white or brown (could be another species), and being very light, they can walk, hop and float on water... not swim! :wink: 

They are a real nuisance and tough to get rid of, since they can hide inside the media, even you try to drown them.

For a severely infested culture, I'd strongly recommend re-starting with cleanly collected worms. To play safe, while the worms are at the bottom of the collecting container and the mites float, *BURN OR TORCH THEM!!!* *Show no mercy!*  :Twisted Evil:

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## stormhawk

Hello Ronnie,

Just an update on the scrubber pad / coarse filter pad combo GWC that you passed to me a few weeks back. The worms have multiplied in small numbers but it seems that the cover isn't retaining enough moisture to make it easy for the worms to move around. They're feeding well on a daily sprinkling of crushed Quaker's oatmeal.

Another thing that I found really odd, there's several grindals that have decided to take a swim and drown in the water bath. Is there any explanation for this behaviour?

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## RonWill

Jian Yang,

There is a fine line between retaining moisture and providing adequate gaseous exchange.

As you have found out, too little moisture, and the worms don't 'travel' as much. Not enough oxygen, and you'll find them migrating into the water bath. Personally, I'll say that oxygen takes priority over moisture.

Increase the air exchange by opening up more ventilation holes but don't forget to have a 'pest barrier' over it.

Let me know what happens after that.

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## kc

Ronnie,

My friend saw the picture of your GW and said that it looks like those worms passed from his stools when he was a kid.  :Smile:

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## RonWill

oh... but if he's still having worms, I think he better do something about it. Otherwise, I might use him as a culture host and forget about my synthetic ones!  :Laughing:  

KC, it isn't surprising that most kids in those good old days have worms, when 'night-soil' were removed manually. Thank gawd that isn't the case now!

FWIW, update me on your progress with the GWC.

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## kc

> FWIW, update me on your progress with the GWC.


Will try to keep you posted. Actually, I've been trying very hard to check their population but everytime I started counting, I fell asleep mid way.
 :Laughing:

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## kc

Update 1

The colour of the cheap scrubber wool that I bought, runs. I don't know whether the red die will affect the GW, but to be safe, I changed the water. Luckily, the red piece is in-between the 4-layers bedding. 


Slight increase in GW. They seem to spread themselves out.

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## RonWill

> Update 1The colour of the cheap scrubber wool that I bought, runs...


Red? Are you using pads or 'wool'? The method on the page is based on the density properties of a scrubber pad! (yeah I know, it's unbelievable... but it works!) I've tried coarse filter wool but not 'scrubbing wool'. YMMV, but tell me anyway.

Prior to use, instructions call for soaking to rid any 'cleaning enhancers' embedded in or within the material. I hope you started off similarly.

KC, You said "4-layers bedding", besides the red, what else do you have in there?

For those following the 'synthetic technique', do try to replicate most, if not all of the steps, so you get comparable reults. From there, you can experiment further, so we can collect broader feedbacks/suggestions.

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## kc

> Are you using pads or 'wool'?


  :Opps:  Should be pads. It looks exactly like what you are using except that they are multi coloured, yellow, red, blue and green(I hope my memory is ok, my go back and check). The red colour runs.

BTW: what is YMMV?

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## RonWill

> BTW: what is YMMV?


Synonym or abbreviated from "Your Mileage May Vary"... literally meaning; achieving different results or effectiveness.

HTH (Hope That Helps)

TT4N (Ta Ta/Bye bye For Now)... and I better stop here! :wink:

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## kc

Ronnie,

Here is the 2nd update. 

The GW are doing fine. Wow! They are big eaters. I started with tiny sprinkle of flakes, like what you advised and slowing keep increasing the amount daily. Nothing is left the next day.

This is what I found (you may have already discovered it too):
The GW only come out for food. If there is no food, they wouldn't come out. To catch them in 'action', place the food on the pad and wait for 2-3 hrs! I think I can start harvesting next week.

I hope they don't bankrupt me. Got to get cheaper flakes.  :Laughing:

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## RonWill

> The GW are doing fine. Wow! They are big eaters. I started with tiny sprinkle of flakes, like what you advised and slowing keep increasing the amount daily. Nothing is left the next day.


Thanks KC for the update. No remaining food is a good sign. Avoid overfeeding in the initial stage and build up the bacterial colony slowly.

If the air is 'dry', they'd prefer to stay in the moist pads but if they're feeding, I guess your worm box is exchanging gases adequately.

For harvesting, a flat piece of container lid or plastic spoon will allow the grindals to climb onto it... making harvesting easier and cleaner.

Affordable flakes? Before you file for bankruptcy, look for a 'packed in China' oatmeal... it's much cheaper than Quaker Oats. (I know... I bought 10 packets of those and cleared the shelf!  :Rolling Eyes:  )

Let me dig around for a pic of that packaging...

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## RonWill

KC and fellow 'worm-people' :wink:,

Here's the packing for the lowest cost oatmeal that I can find.


Click the links for a pic of the back and local distributor label.

Last I heard, they're pulling the product off the shelves because of low turnover but I find these best... it's good, affordable and leaves the least residue. Grab 'em while you can!

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## jkillis

can i use the oats for hamsters?

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## RonWill

Hi Jennifer, long time not see! Glad you're still with us but it seems like you're now more into hamsters than killies!  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  

Hamsters are omnivorous, meaning they'll take both animal/insect and vegetable foods... and to expand on that further; they'll eat worms, grasshoppers, grains (and that include oats) and your scrap veggies! Occasionally, a little meat is even good for them.

As if they'll die tomorrow, they eat and stuff up the pouches located at their cheeks! So yes, hamsters eat oats as does my dwarf chickens!  :Shocked:  

Now... back on topic... how are your grindal cultures doing?? :wink:

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## zmzfam

> can i use the oats for hamsters?


Didn't she meant to ask whether the oats for hamsters can be used for the grindals as well?  :Question:  
I might be wrong though, in which case Ronnie answered perfectly.

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## RonWill

Zul,
Whether it's hamster oats for grindals, grindal oats for hamsters or hamsters cooked in oats, I think we humans will consume it in this not so perfect world! :wink: 

Which reminds me... how are your cultures doing? Those fishes I gave to your kids... are they still alive??

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## zmzfam

> Which reminds me... how are your cultures doing?


I've got a bigger culture going and trying to kickstart the synthetic media culture. Either the pads that I bought is giving me problems or the worms like to hide and fast. The food never get eaten. Will try something else this weekend.




> Those fishes I gave to your kids... are they still alive??


Hehehe...yeah they're still alive...now they're demanding a mini planted tank for the fishies complete with lights! Sheesh!  :Sad:  

Oh, the nymph is also growing well.  :Shocked:

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## zmzfam

> Zul,
> Whether it's hamster oats for grindals, grindal oats for hamsters or hamsters cooked in oats, I think we humans will consume it in this not so perfect world! :wink:


Errr...I think I would past the hamsters part...  :Confused:

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## shortman

Ronnie,

Are you still distrubuting the grindals worms  :Question:  

I wanna try it for my shrimp and tetra fish, hope they will start to breed.  :Laughing:  

Thanks and Best Regards

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## RonWill

Kho, cultures still in midst of reviving. Will check if there's enough starters this weekend.

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## CM Media

Kho,

I'm residing at Punggol. If you don't mind droping by over the weekend, I should be able to get you kick start a culture. :wink:

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## shortman

Au and Ronnie,

Don't worry I am in the process of planing and cultivating. Just wanna get ready for more food for the the fish and shrimp.  :Cool:  

Thanks you Sir. Will get back to both of you.

Best regards

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