# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk >  Un-ID'ed Najas and Aponogeton species

## RonWill

Hi all,

Did anyone tell ya that mid-week shopping for plants is so therapeutic? I ended up buying not only the _Echinodorus_ but also some _Aponogetons_ (need help with some of their names though).

The E. 'Aflame' (that's what I'm told) is really nice and here's a closer look at the leaves before I planted them into my '*Echi-Tank*'.


E. 'Rubin', not the narrow-leafed cultivar, will hopefully grow and cover the water surface. Perhaps then, I can dispose of a tank cover.
 Note new submerged and older emersed leaf form and color. Here's a *closer* shot.

I wanted E. uruguayensis with it's long green leaves but emersed-grown are all the farm has.


Would appreciate some IDs for the 2 _Aponogetons_;
 

My companion shopper (the friendly 'hobbit' :wink: ) was looking for Frogbits and while peeping into the cement 'tanks', I spotted an unusual plant and was later told it's a _Najas_ species.
 
Going through the Net, I gather that it _might_ be _Najas guadalupensis_. I read of _Najas_ being used as fine-leafed shelter for tiny fry and as 'start-up plants' but have never seen it in person. Anyone game to hazard a guess?

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## Slaigar

I think the Aponogetons you have are A. longiplumulosus(left picture) and A. ulvaceus(right picture). Both are fairly easy to grow and both go through a dormancy period.

I can never tell the difference between species of Najas. They are easy to grow but can be annoying to control! You might notice that the plant breaks apart easily which makes it difficult collecting all of it from a tank  :Rolling Eyes:  . They are very good for a bare tank for fry.

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## RonWill

Mark, I'm wondering how you arrive at the guesstimate that the left _Aponogeton_ is _longiplumulosus_ and not _rigidifolius_ or _crispus_. They look awfully similar to me.




> I can never tell the difference between species of Najas. They are easy to grow but can be annoying to control! You might notice that the plant breaks apart easily which makes it difficult collecting all of it from a tank  . They are very good for a bare tank for fry.


 The question remains whether what I have are _Najas_ or some other plants. Yes, I find them quite brittle and from what I've read, it's quite a rampant weed (hence local distribution will be limited to responsible hobbyists who don't dump plants into waterways!)

I was considering using _Najas_ as startup plant to absorb leached nutrients but only if it doesn't 'melt' like hornwort in new water. In your experience, how does your _Najas_ react to big water change or medication?

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## ruyle

Ronnie, if I may butt in here,
The najas pictured is not guadalupensis but a longer-leafed variety I've
never seen. Guadalupensis likes medium-hard to hard water: goes to a
lighter translucent green mush in soft (low TDS) water like I had in Maine. Very nice varietal of najas, where did you get it? I'd add a little equilibrium
(Seachem) if available, and if SG water is soft and acidic. Warm temps
above 85F tend to turn it to mush, too, just like C. demersum. Tropical
hornwort, C. submersum, like I see in KL's pictures is more tolerant of
higher temps.

Bill
farang9

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## budak

Ron,

At least one Najas species (N. indica) is native to Singapore. But they are really quite difficult to tell apart, and growth forms may differ depending on lighting and water conditions. They are quite brittle, but given ample light (CO2 helps but is not so vital), they branch freely into a nice, fragile looking fan of stems. But like hornwort, they seem quite sensitive to additives though (i mean those used to treat diseases, not fertilisers). For start-up soaker plants, i would go for the Sumatran fern, Hygrophila polysperma/difformis or floaters.

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## Slaigar

I can say the plant you have is definitely a species of _Najas_. I have treated mine pretty badly and it seems to have little affect to its growth: including tossing it from high ph & hardness to low ph & hardness and even with a few medications. However, I am unaware of its tolerance of salt.

_A. rigidifolius_ has a rhyzome and not a bulb. It's growth rate is also slower when compared to other _Aponogeton_ species. In my experience, _A. crispus_ has delicate leaves. The leaves in the left picture look very fleshy and lack that "crisp"* look, please correct me if I am wrong. I have never kept A. longiplumolosus but I always imagined it to look like _Cryptocoryne crispatula var. balansae_  :Very Happy:  

"Crisp"*: Hard to describe, so here's a picture!
http://www.akvariumas.lt/augalai/apo...rispus_big.jpg
A. crispus is a variable plant and usually I can't tell the difference between it and A. undulata or a hybrid unless it flowers. But the impression the plant left on me was as if the leaves were unevenly burnt with edges undulated and sometimes "pointy".

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## RonWill

Bill, I nearly missed this _Najas_? because of the fine leaves but it does look nice. I had a tough time identifying it from the Net and _guadalupensis_ was the closest visual match. Will experiment with a small section, together with hornwort, and see which melts to mush.

Budak, I'm not sure about local Najas species but these do have a place in my fishkeeping/breeding practices. For now, I have a small piece of Water sprite in the Echi-Tank, not so much as absorber but to compare it's growth from other tanks.

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## Slaigar

Taking a second look at that, I am thinking the left Aponogeton is actually _Cryptocoryne crisputala_. I just noticed in the picture that is no bulb on the plant. See if you can take another picture when you have some free time.

_Najas indica_ is slow growing plant according to Kasselmann and has no special requirements other than a temperature over 22 degrees Celsius. The picture in the book also has long leaves just like the _Najas_ species that you have. It looks cool and I would not mind it in my tank.

Ron,
If you need any pictures, don't hesitate to ask. I can scan them from Kasselmann's book and send them to you.

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## RonWill

> Taking a second look at that, I am thinking the left Aponogeton is actually _Cryptocoryne crisputala_. I just noticed in the picture that is no bulb on the plant. See if you can take another picture when you have some free time.


Mark, will this pic help? I checked... there ain't no  :Idea:  (bulb  :Laughing:  )


Looks like I missed big time  :Exclamation:   :Laughing:

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## budak

I think it's a Crinum, probably a form of Crinum natans. Aponogetons lack the pale stemmy part above the bulb.

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## jerseyjay

> Going through the Net, I gather that it _might_ be _Najas guadalupensis_.


It is for sure not Najas guadalupensis which is less bushy compare to what you have. 

I was looking at Najas indica vs. Najas sp. "broad leaf" and I will put my money on Najas sp., by looking at your picture. 

Najas indica - notice how leaves lean down.


Najas sp. "broad leaf"

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## TanVincent

Hi,

I have grown Najas Indica in my tank before and they are quite tolerant. Brittle, prickly and red. Hard to scape but sure is an interesting plant to grow. They seems to be quite a tolerant plant. They survived even when I cannot stop my hand from plunging into the water and shifting the plant around during that time  :Smile: 

Cheers
Vincent

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## victri

It looks like Cryptocoryne crispatula var. balansae to me. Not to be mistaken with cryptocoryne crispatula var. crispatula that has narrower leaves (about 1cm wide), are not so wavy and will turn brownish in good light. Balansae should remain green.

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## RonWill

Vic, I've killed enough _C. crispatula var. balansae_ to know that what I have isn't it. The _balansae_'s stem isn't as thick, nor with fleshy green leaves. Brownish tainted leaves sprout from rhizomes/tubers like what I have growing emersed.

It's beginning to look alot like _Crinum natans_ to me. Could the bulb have been removed/re-hibernated once the plant takes root? (I know _Barclaya longifolia_ can be propagated this way) Compare the image of the shorter plant (in my previous post), with the _Crinum_ link.

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## Slaigar

I have not kept any _Crinum_ species except _C. thaianum_ but the plant could possibly be _C. natans "crispus"_ or_ C. aquatica_ (are these synonyms?). Hopefully Jay Luto visits this thread and comments on it. If it is a _Crinum_ species, the bulb shape may just forming.

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## kadios

Hi Ronnie!

It is Crinum Natans. So far my experience with Crinum species is that baby plantlets will grow from the side of the motherplant bulb. Just unpluck them and replant. The guys at Teo's told me by trimming the tips of the leaves of C Calamistratum everyday will spur the production of plantlets. It may work for the C Natans as well. 

Cheers!

Kar Hwee

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## RonWill

Hi Kar Hwee,
I planted the _Crinum Natans_ together with the un-ID'ed _Aponogeton_ but growth is slow. However, the _Aponogeton (ulvaceus or crispus?)_ was about 4inches on July 13th and has breached 12inches on the 20th (that's only a week!) I'm dumbfounded by the growth-rate, especially when the tank is running a UGF, no base fert and no CO2.

 4inch _Aponogeton_, bought 040713

 Growth spurt to 12inches as on 040720. _Fp. gardneri N'Sukka_ at bottom right is about 1.5inches.

 Closeup of the _Aponogeton_ leaf-blade.

So is it a _ulvaceus_ or _crispus_?




> The guys at Teo's told me by trimming the tips of the leaves of C Calamistratum everyday will spur the production of plantlets. It may work for the C Natans as well


 Hmm... this is interesting. I bought 2 _Crinum calamistratum_ last Sunday and they're still floating in the 4footer. Will snip one of them to see if plantlets really do appear.

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## Slaigar

I am sticking with that it is_ A. ulvaceus_. It looks very similar to one that I have(before I moved it and almost killed it!) with its semi-transparent leaves. Mine was quite delicate and frequently had holes in it from my loaches. _A. crispus_ has a cylindrical tuber and the one in your picture looks like a sphere. I can get a picture of an _A. crispus_ tuber if needed.

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## RonWill

Mark, I'm no plant-person and will go with what you guys decide. My goal is just nice, healthy plants :wink: 

It would be nice though, to know why there's a growth spurt. If the causes can be replicated, I'd be game to try it with other setups.

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## zmzfam

> It would be nice though, to know why there's a growth spurt.


It's undergoing puberty  :Laughing:  

On a serious note, it could be due to the water movement of your UGF?

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## Slaigar

It may just be using the nutrients from the tuber if no fertilization is being added. In order to keep it from "burning out", a good base fertilizer would help. My A. masgascariensis did the same thing. It grew about 15 leaves that were about a foot long over the course of a few weeks. From neglect I did not fertilize it and eventually the tuber was exhausted.

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## hobbit6003

Ron,

I wonder if this is of any help in the ID of the aponogeton sp. that we bought, but here goes:

Mine have sprouted leaves that is reddish-brown in colour, and perhaps due to the root monsters, grew more than half a ft tall. THe original ones that we got have smaller and greener leaves. THe reddish brown leaves would turned abit olive green eventually

Also, the leaves have patches of darker colour in them, running horizontally from the the central stem out. The pattern somtimes resemble a bar code or something similar.

Sorry, got no DC to shoot a good pic on these.  :Opps:  

Cheers,

Kenny

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## stormhawk

The growth spurt is due to the water movement through the gravel bed caused by the UGF. I have had nanas, Echi. bleheri and some other odd plants grow very well when I used a UGF without any base fert or CO2. Some plants like a slight current passing through their roots. Thats the reason why some people use heating cables at the base of the tank to allow the warm water to rise up thus allowing water to flow through the roots. An alternative to this is to have layer of gravel at just about 5cm. Enough for the roots to go into. I have had success with cryptocorynes when planted in shallow gravel beds with some base fert beneath. Got a "dwarfed" wendtii growing in a small plastic container with just peat moss at the bottom as a "fert". Works real well and the plant isn't dying. So that's my evidence  :Smile:

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## ruyle

Hi guys,
Curious to know if this is reverse flow UGF or standard UGF. Also how deep
are you making this gravel only substrate, 3-4"?

Regards,

Bill
farang9

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## stormhawk

I think Ron uses standard UGFs. I used a standard UGF powered by a powerhead back then and all my plants did well. My gravel bed was quite thick at about 4-5 inches back then. I don't know how thick Ron's gravel bed is though.  :Smile:

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## RonWill

Bill, mine are modular snap-in plates with twin airlifts and about 2" sloping up to 3" thickness in some area using Lapis 'LoneStar' gravel.

Would have preferred average substrate to be 4" but since I have 4 tanks sitting on a _Metro 'Erecta'_ castored steel rack (tanks' shortside at front), the reduced gravel depth is just sufficient to keep the plants down. Water volume is also lowered lest the castors give way.

Water circulation may have contributed to the _Aponogeton_'s growth spurt (now 14inches) but I wish the _C. natans_, which is just next to it, did equally well.

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## Slaigar

I thought the point of substrate heating was for balance rather than growth boosts. The convection current is too slow to actually give a flow to the roots. A complete overturn may take weeks! It provides stability by making sure the substrate does not exhaust itself by a convection current that continually brings nutrients from the water column into the substrate.

A good article on them is:
http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/A..._Substrate.htm
I read quite a bit about them when setting up my nano tank. But then I learned my lights were able to warm up the tank up to 28 degrees Celsius!

Personally, I would not use UGFs with plants just because the possibility of dead spots appearing if the UGF plate gets clogged with roots. Enough substrate may help stop it. Also, the bubbling sounds were annoying, hehe.

Ron,
Is your C. natans producing submersed leaves? It is supposed to be primarily a floating plant but mine (got to revive it now) was submersed before quite a long while. It was also very prolific that little plantlets kept growing on the tuber itself. I thought I killed it months back but the tuber has not fully rotted on me(bad and careless management on my part). It had nice bushy leaves, I hope it stays submersed in the new tank it is in.

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## RonWill

> Personally, I would not use UGFs with plants just because the possibility of dead spots appearing if the UGF plate gets clogged with roots. Enough substrate may help stop it


Mark, not that long ago, the most affordable and commonly available form of filtration was either UGFs or the floss-filled corner box filters. UGF was my choice of filtration as it allows me to grow plants pretty well and I liked the way they swayed with the bubbled currents. Dead spots was not obvious to me then as it is now.




> Also, the bubbling sounds were annoying, hehe.


 When I was living with my dad, I had more than 20 tanks in my bedroom, with nothing more than a bed and wardrobe. The bubbling was therapeutic to me but it drove my girlfriend nuts (which probably explains why she isn't my present wife!  :Laughing:  ) Nowadays, I can almost swear that my insomia is due to excessive 'silence'.

Anyway... the leaves in the pictured C. natans are submersed foliage and in the same state as when I bought them. I'll let you know when it gets bushy.

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## stormhawk

Ron, maybe I should ask your Mrs whether bubbling affects her or not the next time I drop by.  :Twisted Evil:  

Dead spots can be reduced by certain methods. Using a powerhead, force the water through the gravel bed by reverse UGF method. You should see a swirl of debris in the water. While doing so start up the siphon and most of the muck should be removed. Good way to flush "out" the debris.  :Smile:

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## Slaigar

:Opps:  Woops! When I said_ C. natans_, I was referring to _Aponogeton natans_! That is a bigger mistake than I usually make, hehe (especially since I mentioned I never kept _Crinum natans_ before!). I guess the submersed/floating leaves question does not apply.

Now that I am actually paying attention to what is happening, here are photos of an adult C. natans at RVA:
http://www.rva.jp/gallery/htm_plants...ns_crispus.htm
And at Rehoboth Aquatics
http://www.rehobothaquatics.com/view48.htm (C. aquatica)
http://www.rehobothaquatics.com/view49.htm (C. natans)
They look to similar to me.
The plant can get huge! So get some space and atleast a 4" of substrate underneath that bulb!


All my tanks are in my bedroom so I have to deal with the sounds- be it a clogged filter or a bubbling UGF. I now switched to powerfilters so I get that soothing trickling of water sound, hehe.

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## Green Baron

> Water circulation may have contributed to the _Aponogeton_'s growth spurt (now 14inches) but I wish the _C. natans_, which is just next to it, did equally well.


Ronnie,
So you do have filtration in this tank? I thought this is a low-maintenance no filtration tank ?

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## Slaigar

> So you do have filtration in this tank? I thought this is a low-maintenance no filtration tank ?


Hehe, I tried that one before. I can tell you that a clay substrate(bottom layer) with no filtration means a messy tank! I now keep atleast mechanical filtration and a source of flow.

Water flow can boost plant growth. I will write more about that later, now I got to head off!

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## Slaigar

> Water flow can boost plant growth. I will write more about that later, now I got to head off!


Almost forgot to go back to this one! Increasing water flow is more of a situation of increasing oxygen. A plants metabolism is proportional to the oyxgen content in the water. In aquariums, the quantity of fish is not high enough to create a proper movement in the water. Wind blowing over a pond will have more circulation than a stagnant aquarium.

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## RonWill

Mark, here's where I beg to differ. The 3 DW-styled tanks are doing real fine without aeration or filtration, and how the plants manage to cope is something that baffles me.

A case in point. I've never had much luck with _Aponogeton madagascariensis_, either killing them in the process or getting very stunted growth. In the low cube tank, even with only ambient lighting, the lace plant has put on a bit more foilage and a healthy green.

The _Blyxa aubertii_, said to be a high-light plant, is also a fresh green. Whether this points to the aquatic compost being base fert instead of plain gravel, I can't tell for sure.

What I do know is that an experiment with garden top soil for base was uncontrollable and for lack of a better word, messy. [a wrong choice of bottom layer perhaps?]

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