# Planted Tanks > Beginners' Corner >  Questions, questions, questions. Beginner at work...

## grey_fox

Hi there,

I'm a newbie to this forum and also fish-keeping. Always wanted to keep fishes and to learn the art and maintainence of Aquascaping and finally got the chance to.  :Smug: 

It's been almost a month since I setup my tank. It is 4.8ft x 1.5ft x 2ft, has 2 jebao canister filters (huge ones), used Sera flowerpot (correct me if I am wrong about the name - threw the empty canisters away) ferts, gravel + ferts make up about 2.5" at the front and slopes to about 5" at back. CO2 tank hooked up to some green thing with 3 bio balls. 

The tank is planted with a variety of plants in proper places (plants still growing - as described by fellow AQ members about the protein layer + the evidence of new shoots) I have about 60 neon tetras, 5 yamatos, 2 Zebra Danio, 4 Fire Rings, 6 corydoras, 2 bumblebees, 5 fresh water prawns, 2 congo tertras, 2 dwarf rainbow fishes, 2 holland rams, 2 glass fish (mini ones) and some other fishes I can't really remember off-hand. 

My question is that I want to roughly know the following.

1. When should I change water and how much should I change?
2. Is feeding the fishes twice too much or how often should I feed them?
3. Filter media should be washed or left as it is?
4. Where can I get that Python hose? 
5. If I do a partial change of water, should I add liquid ferts?
6. Where can I get Dr. Mallick's formula from (any particular shop?)

Heh, thanks for entertaining me and my questions, I have other questions but can't remember off hand now. Will post them when I can remember.

Many thanks!!!  :Smile:

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## benny

Congratulations on your successful set up grey fox!

1. I would suggest that you change no more than 20 percent of water every fortnight, given your current bioload.

2. Twice a day is fine, it's the quantity of food that matters. They should finish it within 5 mins.

3. You filter media should be left as it is. For heavily plant tanks, you can clear it every six months on the average.

4. Python Hose can be purchased from Pet Mart at Serangoon if I recall correctly.

5. Don't add anything that you don't know.

6. If you are just starting out, I suggest you use commercial fertilizers like Ferka until you understand the basics. Then you can consider this PMDD solution.

Hope the above helps.

Cheers,

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## StanChung

hi grey fox,

its sera floredepot...and wow... that's a lot of questions. loaded ones...

in summary

1. a tank that size with med-low lighting needs a water change every time you see something not looking right. stunted growth, sick fishes...just my MO. you can opt for 30% every week. that's a pita for most people with more than one tank to maintain.

2. twice is fine. all they can eat in a minute or two.

3. rinsed not washed. you need to keep the filter bacteria to convert fish waste to no3

4. ...do you need it? it wastes quite a bit of water.

5. as per manufacturer's instruction. pick one or learn a method for dosing. EI-estimative index is popular. has it's merits as it's proven to not only work but work better in some cases. however not everybody likes/can do weekly wc esp for large tanks.

6. merchants section has the address if i'm not mistaken...

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## BFG

Let me assist with your fourth question.

You only need normal hose. Get the ones that can fit your tap fitting from your kitchen bathroom. Use it to fill your tank with water. To drain water from your tank, you need to fill the hose with water 1st just like adding water to the tank. When the entire hose is filled with water, switch off the tap and unplug the hose from the tap and drop in on the bathroom floor. The water exiting this end of the hose will form a suction and suck out the water from your tank. The other end of the hose which was used to temporarily filled the tank must be under water so that the suction action can be achieved. Simple to do.

Hope this helps!

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## |squee|

3. Filter media should be washed or left as it is?

Left as it is. Don't do cleaning of the biological filter more than twice a year. The mechanical media can be cleaned, but the "dirtier" the media is, the more polished your water will be.

4. Where can I get that Python hose?

I believe it's not available in Singapore.

5. If I do a partial change of water, should I add liquid ferts?

If you add ferts regularly, no need to replace since your routine takes care of that.

6. Where can I get Dr. Mallick's formula from (any particular shop?)

Nature Aquarium at Thomson Road, opposite Thomson Medical Centre (I only know this plce, there are others though). 

To comment on the rest, imho, if you have the moolah(money) it's good to go into commercial fertilisation like Dennerle, ADA, Ferka. That way you can don't waste time on solving algae issues and whatnot and focus more on aquascaping itself.

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## grey_fox

Thank you guys for all your answers! Really appreciate it! More or less I now have a better idea of things (to come)  :Smug:  but will use this same thread to post more newbie questions.

Come to think of it, I have one on my mind now.

My KH value is 5, is that high? Also what does it do, KH.

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## StanChung

that a good range...
exactly what it does i know little except that it's indicator for temporary hardness. bicarbonates and carbonates. 3-5 range is good so that the ph does not swing.
been getting funny answers...

 :Smile:

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## grey_fox

Heh, my PH is at 6.5-6.8 now. So I guess everything a A-OK? I used the calculator here for the CO2, it shows 23.8 ~ 24 PPM, I know I asked this in a another thread but how does one count PPM?

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## |squee|

Read this.

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## StanChung

good article... adding co2 doesn't swing ph...myth...where did this myth come from? probably need to feature on 'mythbusters'... :Grin:

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## valice

doesn't your two holland ram bother with your bubblebee, yamatoes and "fresh water" prawns?

maybe your tank is big enough for them to hide from your rams...

anyway, quite an envy that you started with such a big tank right from the start... could really do some very serious aquascaping...

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## grey_fox

> doesn't ur two holland ram whack up ur bubblebee, yamatoes and "fresh water" prawns?
> 
> maybe ur tank is big enuff for them to hide from ur rams...
> 
> anyway, quite an envy that u started with such a big tank right from the start... could really do some very serious aquascaping...


Hi valice,

They don't (at the moment) but can see they are quite territorial. 

Still learning the ropes at the moment. A long way to go  :Smile: 

|squee| thanks for the article, very educational  :Smile:

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## grey_fox

Just did a partial water change (20%) and topped it up with tap water (no declorination done) and fishes are still ok. Just wondering, for the water skimmer, where can I buy that? Also can it be attached to the output of the canister filter (or supposed to be attached elsewhere?)

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## ahkarboy

do a 20% water change every week or every fortnight to avoid algae growth. if you want to feed the fishes twice a day its fine as long as they finish it.

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## grey_fox

#)#*$#! As you guys know I'm using 2 x canister filters, one of the canisters started spewing gunk.... its like those snow machines except it was some brownish dirt. I suspect it was from the output tube (the rubber one), took about 2 hours for the filters to suck everything back up, was really disheartened (as water was already clearing up) now the water is cloudy again (not cloudy like the bacteria boom period). Should I wash the damn tubes? And if I do so, I believe since this can happen, I believe it will happen again correct? Or is there a simpler way to prevent such a thing from happening?

I have a few questions that need some answers from all who's much more experienced that I am in this.

1. It's been about (give or take) 3 + weeks but the water quality is still not clear yet. What could be causing this? Bacteria boom (I thought) would last for a short period?

2. When I set my tank up, I did not use underwater gravel plates (could this be a factor of the dirty looking water?) does it really matter if I use it or not?

3. My plants are growing rather well (see the moss doing the 7up) and the vallis (correct me if i'm wrong about the spelling) plant shooting out quite a number of plantlets. However, those at the bottom (mainly the grass) are not growing as well as I hoped (and a small tiger lotus too). Could this be due to insufficient light source? (I have 4 x 36W 7000K FL tubes) but my tank's depth is 2ft. Should I invest in a different light source or strong tubes?

4. Since my plants (majority - except that I mentioned above) are growing well, can I do a re-scape as I am not really happy with the current layout. (I added too much plants)

Would appreciate all the advise you can give to this greenhorn here. Also I have added in a picture of my tank and layout. (My skill & creativity level is still below amateur for sure). You can roughly see the water quality there too (now after all the gunk came out, just imagine it, slightly cloudier...)  :Sad: 

Please advise.

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## benny

Don't worry about the gunk from your external canister filter. We ALL have the same problem, be it from a S$30 or S$300 filter. You'll get used to it, OR you can put a fine mess net at the output when you turn on the filter after the water change.

As for your other questions...

01. It's one of those strange things. There's not fix period for the tank to turn clear, but when it does, it does.

02. Why do you need under water gravel plates for? I assue you are talking about underwater Gravel Filter plates. Not necessary at all.

03. Looks like the bottom plants are not doing well due to the inability for light to penetrate that deep. Could be due to the partially cloudy water too. If the situation does not improve, then you may need to think about improving penetration.

04. Your tank looks only 30% planted (in terms of floor space). I had my 80% planted. This is to prevent algae out break. When there is plenty of plants, algae usually don't stand a chance. But if you are talking about plant species, then I think you have about 15 to 18 species of plants inside. The layout could be better. It's not a problem re arranging them.

You are doing just fine with your tank. Relax and enjoy!

Cheers,

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## valice

> You are doing just fine with your tank. Relax and enjoy!


I agree... Actually our planted hobby should be meant to help us relax... But sometimes we seemed to be caught up with the issues of fertilisation and lightings!

grey_fox, just plant more (quantity & not variety for now) and enjoy ur fruits (should I say 'plants'?) of labour...  :Jump for joy:

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## grey_fox

Hi all,

Thanks for your feedback, I should put more plants or should I let them grow first? I feel that its a bit too crowded. 

Can you recommed a foreground plant which can grow with the lightsource that I have? As my tank's depth is 2ft, I believe what you guys mentioned is correct - not having enough light. I don't think I would want to add more background plants at the moment. However, how can I further improve the penetration of the light? I already bought a skimmer but would need to do some customization to it or was thinking of getting guppies to remove the protein layer. 

Actually I have about 16 species but some (as mentioned) the smaller/shorter ones are really struggling.... Should I upgrade the tubes? What would be sufficient? 55W or stronger? 

Also if the plants have rooted themselves, would it be advisable to yank them out? Will this affect their growth if I should replant them? Also I am sure by uprooting them I will get the water stirred up again correct?

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## |squee|

It's always good practise to have more plants at the start. It helps in deterring algae, and you can fill out your aquascape much faster. Deterring algae is a very important thing in your aquarium, as once algae appears everything you have planned has to be put on hold. 

I'm sorry, I forgot the wattage of your light source. Was it 15W? However, from the picture, it _seems_ that you can at least try E.Tennellus or common mosses. Doubling the light will of course give you more range of plants. 

I'll leave the penetration of light issue to the pros. For such a big tank, frankly I'd consider a MH (metal halide) lamp set. Penetration will be no issue, and you'll have lots of light. Downside is, they're damn hot and consume much electricity. But for a big tank, it's justifiable imho. I'd get a chiller to go with the light if I had your tank.

Why do you wanna yank them out? It's okay, but not too often I guess. Replanting/rescaping should be done as infrequently as possible as everytime you do such a mess up, the whole balance is thrown off and the possibility of algae always threatens. Yes you'll get the water dirtied especially when uprooting deep-rooted plants.

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## grey_fox

HI |squee|, I tried search for the E.Tennellus but unable to locate this plant at tropica.com, got any pictures of it? My FL tubes are currently 4 x 36W 7000K tubes. I don't think I would want to use MH as they consume too much electricity as I have my lights on for about 10 hours a day. 

Would changing the tubes to 55W help out much more? So you too recommend that I add in more plants? I believe most of the plants have taken root and I am afraid of yanking them out to move them about. 

If so I will buy more plants and start planting them. More quantity then species too would be your advise?

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## |squee|

:Grin:  E.Tennellus is short for Echinodorus Tennellus. 

I'm not sure about your lighting issue then, because I have zero experience on big tanks like 4.8ft  :Razz:  

Yes, more plants will be good. This will help stablise your system faster, and if you believe in the "plant growth retards algae growth" belief, then more plants = more plant growth = less algae growth. Takashi Amano, Tom Barr, PeterGwee will all tell you to plant thickly at the start. You see your tank pic above? Double or triple the plant mass for a good measure. 

More quantity or more speices doesn't matter (this is according to how you want your tank to look like after all) as long as you pack that tank with plants, as though everything has already grown in.

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## grey_fox

|squee| thanks for the advise  :Smile:  gonna head to the local aquarium after work (if it is still open but the time I am back from work) to buy more plants. Managed to locate the Echinodorus tenellus at Tropica  :Smile:  those are the plants I have for foreground plants... Should I add more of them as they're planted pretty sparsely... will plant them and send upload the updated pic here soon.

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## grey_fox

Just when I wanted to add more plants, I noticed that my holland rams were make a small little shallow pit, next 10 mins they were laying eggs on the gravel... oh well..

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## benny

> Just when I wanted to add more plants, I noticed that my holland rams were make a small little shallow pit, next 10 mins they were laying eggs on the gravel... oh well..


Oh. Congrats! Do keep us updated! It'll be fun to see the female caring for the fry.

Cheers,

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## grey_fox

Hehe yeah  :Smile:  guess it'll take 36 hours or more for the eggs to hatch?

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## StanChung

> I'm sorry, I forgot the wattage of your light source. Was it 15W? However, from the picture, it _seems_ that you can at least try E.Tennellus or common mosses. Doubling the light will of course give you more range of plants. 
> 
> I'll leave the penetration of light issue to the pros. For such a big tank, frankly I'd consider a MH (metal halide) lamp set. Penetration will be no issue, and you'll have lots of light. Downside is, they're damn hot and consume much electricity. But for a big tank, it's justifiable imho. I'd get a chiller to go with the light if I had your tank.


mh light doesn't seem to be hot...esp if it's a 70w bulb. 
au contraire they save electricity for the intensity greyfox...
the colour temp is crucial as it looks drab for fish. this is inherent characteristic for mh bulbs. the nicer coloured ones are more expensive.
a combo with warm tone fl will make colour looki nicer for fish and red plants.

mosses and tennelus are good suggestions. mosses can be tied onto rock or glass or wood. just choose those that stick well like java, sg, xmas, taiwan...
keep the temp below 28c. 25-28c is a good range.
agree with everybody that you need to keep more of a kind than get collectoritis immediately! ha ha i guess we all start like that! i was and still am!

surface skimmer is to be stuck at inlet of one of your canisters. useful in taking out the lipid film...and also floating debris. seems like a fixture in all my planted tanks. not planted ones have overflow...ha

good luck on the fishies!

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## grey_fox

Hey standoyo,

Am aiming to group up more similar plants but since the Ram just laid her eggs, I won't be able to do anything yet. =\ but more or less get the idea now  :Smile: 

Just a concern to me, mosses should not have strong water flow pointed towards them even though they're tied down? Would this affect its growth, etc?

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## |squee|

Too much will mean mechanical stress for the plant, but for mosses you can have average water flow on them imho.

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## grey_fox

Hey |squee|,

Thanks for the advise  :Smile:  Appreciate it. Will redirect the spray bar however I personally think its too powerful =\ can really see the dirt being blown around (which kinds of frustrates me). 

Also, another question on my mind is this.

Let's say the tank has established itself and if I intend to re-scape the entire tank by adding more gravel + more basefert, re-positioning and addition of the plants, driftwood, etc. Would this be advisable? 

Problem is that I already have fishes in there (so far 0 casulties after 1 1/2 weeks) and I believe that more or less the bacteria has (or is already growing) in the tank and filter media. How should one approach with such a task? 

I noticed seeing in the other threads that a lot of re-scaping is done (other AQ members) but would like some advise on the measures I can take to do the re-scape, and have a quick kick-start of the bacteria back into the tank with a miminal lost of fishes :P (if possible).

I've got quite a few ideas on the re-scape and since the tank I have is 4.8ft, there's more than enough room to create the ideal scape. 

As for my light issue, I will be retrofitting T5 lamps in =\ hopefully this will be strong enough to penetrate through all the way to the ground of the tank.

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## |squee|

You have to look into your dirt issue imho, if dirt is flying out of the outlet you have a problem somewhere. Check your filter media and arrangement.

If you intend to do that, it's fine but it's practically like restarting the whole tank's "ecology".

The rescape you mentioned imho is what I call a major rescape. So what I'd do is:

1) Remove everything from the tank, driftwood plants fish and put them in buckets of water (water from the tank) seperately. 

2) Drain the tank (if you can save more of the original water, all the more better) and do your armageddon thing on the tank.

3) Plant thickly this time, as thick as you can. Plants are cheap in Singapore. After making minor adjustments and all, fill up the tank about 1/3. 

4) Put the buckets of dirty water (dirty but they contain the bacteria) along with your fish to the tank. Fill up the rest of the tank. You might want to use products like Easylife Fluid Filter Medium along with your nutrafin cycle. 

Good thing you thought of improving current equipment too. get good T5 sets, those with parabolic reflectors are better I think. Read up those T5 threads in the Equipment section (but I bet you've done it already  :Razz: )

A note however, your fish might not like the sudden change. Bearing in mind yours is a 4.8ft tank (its huge to me) you might want to reacclimatise your fish to the new tank. This will mean pouring most of the dirty water in and topping up the tank, and then using this method accilmatise the fish as if they were just bought from the LFS again.

No fish should die on the first week. Once you observe new growth on the fastest growing plants in your tank, add a bunch of Yamato shrimp to help with algae and dead plant matter clean up. This is good because usually plants will be adapting to your tank and shedding all sorts of leaves and whatnot, a good time for algae to grow. 

On fertilisation, you can choose to start immediately, or start once you see growth on the fastest growing plants in your tank. I personally do it that latter way, but many others do it the former way too. 

Good luck!

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## grey_fox

Hey |squee|  :Smile: 

Yup read up a lot about the T5 lighting, I've called Razali from DeLightings and am going to send him the photos of my current hood so that he can customise it to fit the T5 lighting for me. 

So much work, heh might not want to go through all of that. I guess I will wait till much later before deciding on a re-scape. Too busy with work also and other commitments to do that all over again. My water has cleared up a whole lot and apparently the Ram's little eggs are all gone  :Sad:  probably the corydoras or other fishes ate it all up.... I have added more plants in and will upload the picture again. I know that I can added even more but will wait a while first.

Just to ask, what is or where is LFS?

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## valice

LFS stands for *L*ocal *F*ish *S*hop

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## grey_fox

Hi valice, thanks for the explaination of the abbreviation.  :Smile: 

I just purchased a set of T5 lights from AquaMarin. Looks much much much brighter that the 4 x FL tubes I had...

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## |squee|

Good job! You really planted thickly haha.

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## grey_fox

hehe, can plant even more actually. :P

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## grey_fox

Hmm, come to think of it, the photo I took is damn badly taken... Will re-take the shot and post it back up... with the full view of the tank.

Don't really know how to use the Minolta Dimage A1 camera as it's my brothers'.... too cheem these digital SLR cameras...

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## |squee|

Try posting in the photography section, where benny, simon, loupgarou, lots others can help you.

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## Goondoo

> Try posting in the photography section, where benny, simon, loupgarou, lots others can help you.


Try to take the picture at night, off/block all the lights except your tank's one, and never use a built-in flash. 

Just want to point out about the MH lights consuming more electricity myth in your previous post. Be it 150w from T5, MH, FL or tungsten, they are the same when it reflect on your monthly bills. 150W is 150W  :Smug:  :Roll Eyes:

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## grey_fox

Thanks for the tip guys. Yeah, 150W would be 150W, how silly of me  :Smile:

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## StanChung

hi greyfox,

sorry to read this late. moved house over the weekend.
not advisable to add basefert at this stage. just add top gravel.

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mh is more efficient per watt. period. does not consume more electricity. au contraire. Goondoo is right to point out 150W is 150W. but 150W of MH will produce more light than 150W of FL. i can't say how much more as it depends on the bulb. so if you have tank that does well with 70W of fl lighting then forget about 70W MH. you won't save any money.
however if you have planted tank that uses 240W [6 x40] of fl lighting then you may consider switching to [1X150MH or 2X70W MH] + 2X30W fl [pink for colour] because mh does have it's advantages in power saving efficiency over ordinary fl only if you break the 70W threshold for your tank as there is 70W mh bulbs.

t5 VHO comes close almost equal with good reflectors. lighting engineer pointed this out in other forum.
i can't verify this because i don't have a lightmeter. anyway fyi, plants need light that's not seen to the naked eye too. so don't be fooled by a dim planted tank specific tube or a bright to the naked eye one.

so it's more of trial and error for you and me when choosing bulbs.
all the WPG[watts per gallon] measurement is for standard fl/pl bulbs only in 1.5ft high tanks. it is more accurate for tanks around 75l-300l. it is only meant as a rough guide and is highly inaccurate IMO. let your plants do the talking. they pearl[in high light] and grow well when their requirements are met.

for your tank a 2X70W mh + 2 X 40W or 2X30W is good energy saving option. but since you already bought the lights it's gonna be hassle to change the ballast and bulbs. 
just be aware that higher lighting means greater care is needed to maintain balance to keep algae at bay. pretty unforgivable as rupert will tell you.

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there's lot's of reflection in bg. close the door or shoot at night with room lights out as goondoo pointed out.
if you have photoshop or iphoto or others. adjust the levels/contrast a bit.

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psst. that's erm either lazy planting of the HG[hairgrass] or no one told you how but...split it into clumps of 5 plants and 1 cm apart. you will be rewarded with nice carpet.

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## grey_fox

Hey standoyo, thanks for the tips  :Smile: 

Lol, I didn't know I had to split them up :P Will do that now. Thanks for that important tip too. However, they're pretty clumped up together though, should I cut them up?

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## |squee|

No cut, just pull the plants apart  :Razz:  I know how messy it is, just perhaps seperate into small clumps of about 5 to 8 leaves and plant perhaps 3cm away from each other. This way you get a uniform field much faster.

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## StanChung

ditto...tedious. sharp tweezers....

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## valice

One easy way to split up the hair grass is to throw the either clump into a small bucket of water and split from there... The hair grass will automatically "open up" and then u can split already.

You will probably also so some of the plants are the results of runners... Just cut or pull them apart... Quite easy to plant actually... With tweezers, that is...

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## grey_fox

which is better, hair grass or riccia? Also can riccia be grown as a foreground plant?

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## valice

Depends on what you like... Riccia tends to float up as it is primary a floating plant... But if you look at Amano's tank, his riccia lawn is super nice... Nice pearling since your new T5 is strong enough...

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## grey_fox

> Depends on what you like... Riccia tends to float up as it is primary a floating plant... But if you look at Amano's tank, his riccia lawn is super nice... Nice pearling since your new T5 is strong enough...


How should I tie it down? To a rock or to a netting and where can I get this 'riccia netting' ? *A picture of it would be good* :P

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## StanChung

oh you like riccia...ha ha so did most of us till it started floating and sticking everywhere...nye nye. i suggest you keep mini riccia instead of the common riccia. [up to you though]
anyway it's an experience not to be missed...haha
for the netting, you may find at some angler's shop...the 'holes' should be no bigger than 0.5cmx 0.5cm stretched. prepare some wire tidy to knot the netting at the bottom. some like to stitch this up but that takes forever when you want to do 20 rocks. [imagine you have to do this every two months... :Knockout:  that's why most of us give up on riccia!]
did you check out the poll for plants? i think everybody hates riccia here...hahaha.

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## grey_fox

Doh! haha. Well, mistakes are always best learnt the hard way yah. :P Need to experience it first-hand. Hopefully it won't flow upwards :P Btw can riccia be tied to driftwoods?

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## StanChung

you can tie it to anything but it will never stick just remember that.
the whole idea is to hide the string/line/net. so using one which is the same colour as the item you're tying it to is a good idea.
for branches, i like using string. it melts in a few months but you have to retie in two anyway...
happy tying...

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## grey_fox

think i'll use nylon, those lime green ones. Just bought 3 rolls, 0.4mm lines hehe. $2.50. Btw, rough-guage, how much should a driftwood (those fairly bigger ones) cost? There's a LFS near my place (actually 3) and one of them is run by this 'cheater-family'. Wanted to con me once... but they have the nicer driftwoods....  :Knockout: 

..And yeah, strings will decompose after a while.

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## StanChung

haha can't help you there... 
typically a 2-3 foot branchy one will cost about RM80 over here. [~35 SGD]

if you're using lime green line, then try to hide the underside of the wood...otherwise it will look 'unnatural'?

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## grey_fox

Ditto on that  :Smile:  2-3 ft is quite large yah..

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## grey_fox

Tied the riccia from 8 to 9 hahahaha. submerged in bucket to test, looks ok and trimmed all those which was unsightly and sticking out :P Btw, the reel of nylon line I bought was transparent, not lime green. :P It was the reel that was lime green. Working too much already it seems...

What an experience!!!!

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## StanChung

got pix to post of WIP?  :Smile:

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## grey_fox

Will take a pic of it.

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## grey_fox

Oh yah one more question that I have, when do I start dosing liquid ferts? It's been about 1 month plus, should I start now and what sort should I use and in what proportions? Also liquid ferts will/should not kill my fishes right?

Also just to inform, found the 1st casualty in my tank, my biggest malayan prawn died...  :Sad:  actually make that 2, another smaller one got munched on by my congo tetra  :Knockout:

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## |squee|

You can start dosing already... I usually start when the fastest growing plants in the tank start to show signs of growth. Of course they won't kill... otherwise they won't be in business.

As for what kind, you can either go cheap DIY or expensive commercial eay-to-dose.

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## grey_fox

How to DIY ferts? Also Sera brand ferts are good? What should I basically dose? I don't want to over-do it.

Btw, I can see BBA starting to grow!

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## |squee|

If you're interested in the Estimative Index way, lots of us can help you. Commercial ferts are dummies-proof, just follow instructions. I've not used Sera, but it's a reputable brand. Dennerle, ADA, Seachem and Dupla are the products I've used (some) or heard of. 

Then get your CO2 up immediately. Those black stuff are a complete *pain* in the ***, especially on your driftwood and equipment since it's so hard to remove.

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## grey_fox

Hey |squee|, just upped my CO2, yeah they're really hard to rub off and its really unsightly. I don't know what my PPM now though... 

I would really love to learn more about Barr's EI method, been reading a lot about it but as we Singaporeans like to put it "catch no ball", I'm more of a computer person and not a 'sciencey' person.

I believe that if you do it the EI way, there's a better understanding at the end of the day in using/dosing ferts (in a way) you'll know what you are actually doing  :Smile: 

Also, another question, how long does a driftwood take a sink? 1 week or less?

----------


## grey_fox

Btw, I am using 2 x Jebao 918 flowrate @ 1200l/hr so that makes 2400l/hr. Is this too strong for my tank?

----------


## |squee|

It takes driftwood about a month to sink properly. Have to be patient... for darker coloured wood, usually sinks immediately. 

No idea on the flowrate. Watch the plants... if they're swaying it's a little too strong.

I'll answer your questions about EI in a seperate thread later on  :Smile:

----------


## grey_fox

Woah one month to let it sink? That's a really long long time... anyway to speed the process up?

 :Smile:  Thanks, would really appreciate the seperate thread on the EI  :Smile:

----------


## valice

Tie a rock which is heavy enough to the wood so that your wood will stay at the bottom. After the month, remove it...

----------


## grey_fox

Read up further and now I'm soaking the driftwood in a rather large bucket. I wanted to use hot water but haha I have tied the moss, etc on the driftwood. (stupid of me to do so...) Now I am Just going to pray that it will be a quickie for it to absorb all the water and be water logged.

----------


## grey_fox

Also, just to check if my KH is 4 and PH is 6.7 and after using the calculator here, it shows 19PPM, would that be my rate of CO2 in my tank?

----------


## |squee|

It'll be the concentration of CO2 in your tank. 19ppm is too low... get it up to 35ppm at least.

Also, I found a rather good thread to read, about EI fertilisation for dummies here. However, if it's daunting, please do consider investing a bit of money into commercial ferts. ADA, Dennerle work well and are easy to find in Singapore's LFSes.

----------


## grey_fox

So I really got to UP the CO2 all the way huh? Will read the dummy guide  :Smile:  Thanks again |squee|. Will post my views once I finish reading it too  :Smug: 

Btw, Oto can help remove BBA too yah?

----------


## |squee|

Do it slowly... you don't want your fish to die from pH shock  :Smile:  Do it over a number of days... like today tweak the knob just a little, observe... next day same thing and so on.

Otocinclus sp. cannot consume BBA  :Razz:

----------


## grey_fox

Ok, hehe actually which helpful critter can consume? Also where can I get the appropriate chemicals for the dosing for EI?

----------


## StanChung

hi greyfox,
surprised that bba can grow in your low light tank. 
160W in ~320+ liters of water
methinks something has bottomed out in your tank. meaning some fert/trace needed by your plants has run out. i found out in early years using some not so expensive ferts was good enough.
although buying the more expensive ones is in one's inherent curiosity. me included. when you've understood the cause of EI then you can make your own. not everybody likes, can or have time to do WC for a medium large tank. there are other options but EI is a good one.

i doubt upping the co2 will help. you still have 19ppm in there. this isn't the limiting factor. it becomes a limiting factor if it's near zero.

your filter flow rate is too high. 2400lhr means you have ~8x per hour. you should aim for 2-3x. i suggest you decommision one and add a dedicated powerhead for the co2 reactor. 4X is ok as most manufacturers overrate their filters. filter material, height of tank in relation to canister, clogging over time, the curves of the tubes and connectors[spray bar etc] all affect the flow rate.

about your dw, boiling the wood can speed up it's sinking. heat forces the air trapped innit. is it the heavy type in the first place? if it's not don't bother, it will never sink! just tie it to a rock.

wood i figure is a trigger for bba.
i have pieces of wood in water storage tank that has window light that has bba growing on it. clear of bba on glass etc. no fish or fert in the tank, just municipal water. some say rotting wood can cause it. i concur since i see it first hand.
also it is noted the pieces of wood away from the window does not have bba.
my simplistic conclusion is light+ decaying wood+1 month or so is a factor. other factor er... other experts can tell you more convincingly.  :Grin:  HTH.

----------


## grey_fox

:Smile:  Hey Standoyo, I'm recently upgraded my lights to T5 4x54Ws I think the DW is quite light to me (it's those light colored ones).... So basically I gotta tie it to a rock? 

Looks like I will decom one of my filters. =\ Anyways gonna leave the office now will update this post once I'm home.  :Smile:  Thanks again!!!!

----------


## ranmasatome

IF you have BBA..check you Co2 FIRST.. everything else is pale in comparison to this factor. check and re-check.. make sure its high at ALL times of the day...between 25-35 ppm. If you can attain this CONSTANT leve of Co2 you can start to remove your BBA manually.. they wont re-appear.

----------


## PeterGwee

> i doubt upping the co2 will help. you still have 19ppm in there. this isn't the limiting factor. it becomes a limiting factor if it's near zero.


You need to factor in measurement errors and how consistent is the 19ppm. He might get away with it if its truly stable but then its difficult. The algae doesn't lie, the test kits do though.




> wood i figure is a trigger for bba.
> i have pieces of wood in water storage tank that has window light that has bba growing on it. clear of bba on glass etc. no fish or fert in the tank, just municipal water. some say rotting wood can cause it. i concur since i see it first hand.
> also it is noted the pieces of wood away from the window does not have bba.
> my simplistic conclusion is light+ decaying wood+1 month or so is a factor. other factor er... other experts can tell you more convincingly.  HTH.


Wood, stones and etc get BBA first and then finally the plants if the CO2 goes down hill. The algae and plants makes the best test kits since they are great indicators of a tank's health as does DO and pearling. Don't trust the measurements too much if the algae is growing great. They lie...

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

----------


## grey_fox

> IF you have BBA..check you Co2 FIRST.. everything else is pale in comparison to this factor. check and re-check.. make sure its high at ALL times of the day...between 25-35 ppm. If you can attain this CONSTANT leve of Co2 you can start to remove your BBA manually.. they wont re-appear


Hi ranmasatome, for me to attain 25-30PPM I would need to raise my KH level by a notch (1.0) should I add baking soda into the water to raise this?




> Wood, stones and etc get BBA first and then finally the plants if the CO2 goes down hill. The algae and plants makes the best test kits since they are great indicators of a tank's health as does DO and pearling. Don't trust the measurements too much if the algae is growing great. They lie...


Hi Peter, my plants aren't really pearling (like 7up) yet, although I do see stomata in action (bubbles forming on the Java Moss). Just to check, what is DO? My bogwood & rocks have not succumbed to BBA yet but its just the leaves on some of my plants. 

Also I would be decommisioning one of my canister filters (currently using 2 x Jebao 918 @ 1200l/hr for each individual filter (2 x 1200l/hr) however I am using a 4.8~5.0ft tank. Would that one filter be sufficient.

Also, my other question that I have is when is the right time to clean the filter and how does one go about doing so without killing the good bacteria?

Seeking further advise as always  :Smile:

----------


## ranmasatome

plspls pls dont go raise your kh.. it will not solve ANYTHING in terms of how much co2 that is dissolved in the water.. go for a lower ph... do it by raising the rate at which the co2 is being pumped into the tank...and only that way.

----------


## grey_fox

Hi ranmasatome, 

Noted, will not raise the KH at all and will raise the CO2 to have the PH lowered.

----------


## grey_fox

Should I split up my 1 x canister filter to have two intakes and 1 output and decom the other canister filter?

----------


## StanChung

hi greyfox,
sounds like you only have minor problem for now.
i agree with peter that test kits lie, perhaps are not all highly accurate or downright faulty!
---- 
on the controversial discussion of BBA i shall thread lightly and give you all my observation/deductions...not necessarily the truth but so far it's what i see and believe.

i for one don't believe raising co2 will kill bba.
i've raised it till the fish gasp for a week and it does not kill/rid/lessen growth of bba. this is in a 2x2x1 liter tank with 72 W of new ADA pl bulbs. it previously had just one bulb with little bba but poor glosso growth. it always starts from area that's closest to the light and the becoming an unsightly charcoal grey pelt. raising co2 high at all times during the day perhaps may work if the other needed nutrients are available as ranmasatome suggests.

What i'd like to say is it's simplistic to say crank up the co2 when bba appears. [though terence and everybody here says carefully.] i'd venture to say the high flowrate is dissipating whatever co2 you're putting in. decommission one filter first before you crank up the co2. observe for a week. stem plants you have will be the first to show good growth. the larger echinodorus will fizz.[you have T5- 54W x4-congrats. nice lights]

my observations are this, i've started tanks with high co2[4-5 bubbles in a 2x2x1] that still get bba! so i think there's more to it than just raising the co2. i run on one to two bubbles a sec in a 280l tank[considered low] and i occasionally get some hair algae, spot algae and little bba on the top leaves. the bba only appears in extreme cases of neglect. [when i'm out of town for two-three weeks and the co2 run out]

mind you this 3x2x2 tank has been running since june without a single WC! only top up water. 8 months already. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...0&d=1132680777 [6months-november pix]
the tank has it's ups and downs due to owner neglect[sometimes i don't realise that the co2 tank is empty due to mechanical leak, but looking at the plants gives me a clue] but otherwise does well when i'm around. this tank is truly low maintenance. clipping and scraping spot algae once awhile,l dosing whenever there's stunted growth or lack of pearling. 

i have to wonder if terence you mean to up the co2 to 35ppm as a means to treat the tank? 
IMO thinking of ways to keep it in the water and spread out all around the tank without creating a tsunami is more important than the numbers 20 or 35. IMO if the plants are growing then the numbers are irrelevant. 

For eg co2 reactor outlet lower. spraybar pointed downward at co2 reactor outlet or two reactors/diffusors etc. that to me is more important, especially when you want to hide all the equipment. that's a challenge for a 4.8 footer.
--------
Lastly, i don't presume to unlock the mystery of BBA.
As peter wisely said, don't trust the kits, trust your plants, algae and i'd like to add fish[to see if you overdid the co2].
--------

my earlier remark about light weight wood and light coloured wood is untrue. i have two pieces i brought back from bkk that's colour of pinewood, light weight and sinks[realise it duh!]. methinks you need to tie your wood to a stone or boil it. i have some darkwood pieces that are in a tank collecting bba that still floats after 4 months[it’s too big to boil]! lightwood or darkwood...no diff. boil or tie down if it floats!

ok too much talking ... :Knockout:

----------


## PeterGwee

standoyo, high CO2 does not kill BBA! It just stops it from growing. Once that is done, all you have to do is to remove it physically and make sure your CO2 rate is consistent. Folks that use disc need to make sure they clean it very often once it starts to clog (CO2 level drops and that triggers BBA.). Doing the faith CO2 dosing by upping the bubble rate slowly till the fish act funny and then back off a bit to the safe level allows you to hit high excess with no issues to fish. (You need some surface movement along with this method and be around the whole whenever you up the rate slowly. Up the rate say 1bps to 1.1-1.2bps and then monitor for the critters carefully...not upping throughout the whole day!).

Circulation is important in bringing nutrients across to the plants and you should never sacrifice it for lowering the surface movement (some is good anyway). A spraybar along the bottom rear back pointing forward is a good way of sending high even current to the tank with creating much surface turbulence. (Vinz has done it...ask him.). Using the CO2 misting method also allows you to view where the current is getting to and not. Just improve the mixing in whatever way you like till you get the mist to cover all parts of the tank as best as you can. (good circulation throughout.).

BBA comes in whenever your CO2 dips or whenever it goes up/down during the photoperiod. Upping the CO2 won't kill it but will stop the growth if its indeed that high but care must taken to make sure the fish are not stressed. ADD CO2 ONLY DURING THE PHOTOPERIOD AND SHUT IT OFF AT NIGHT!

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

----------


## PeterGwee

> Hi Peter, my plants aren't really pearling (like 7up) yet, although I do see stomata in action (bubbles forming on the Java Moss). Just to check, what is DO? My bogwood & rocks have not succumbed to BBA yet but its just the leaves on some of my plants. 
> 
> Also I would be decommisioning one of my canister filters (currently using 2 x Jebao 918 @ 1200l/hr for each individual filter (2 x 1200l/hr) however I am using a 4.8~5.0ft tank. Would that one filter be sufficient.
> 
> Also, my other question that I have is when is the right time to clean the filter and how does one go about doing so without killing the good bacteria?


DO = Dissolved Oxygen in water

Do not decommision your other filter. Use 2 of them but make changes to your flow pattern since the tank is big and circulation is more of an issue as the tank gets bigger. Use spraybars along the entire rear-back of the tank just above the substrate pointing the outlets forward to the front of the tank (if the substrate is sloped, just point the outlet level to the substrate.). For each filter, position the inlet at the each back corners and then the outlets to spraybars (use a vertical bar and elbows to get the outlet flow down to the spraybar at the bottom rear. Drill 1 or 2 small holes on the vertical bar near the surface of the water to get some surface movement going.). Each spraybar should take about 2.25-2.5 ft of the tank length.

For the CO2, consider the CO2 misting method (easy to check if the CO2 is well circulated or not since its visual) using either 2-3 diffusers (clean it often) or feeding CO2 to multiple powerheads with spraybars (flow pattern similar to the filter setups).

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

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## grey_fox

> DO = Dissolved Oxygen in water
> 
> Do not decommision your other filter. Use 2 of them but make changes to your flow pattern since the tank is big and circulation is more of an issue as the tank gets bigger. Use spraybars along the entire rear-back of the tank just above the substrate pointing the outlets forward to the front of the tank (if the substrate is sloped, just point the outlet level to the substrate.). For each filter, position the inlet at the each back corners and then the outlets to spraybars (use a vertical bar and elbows to get the outlet flow down to the spraybar at the bottom rear. Drill 1 or 2 small holes on the vertical bar near the surface of the water to get some surface movement going.). Each spraybar should take about 2.25-2.5 ft of the tank length.
> 
> For the CO2, consider the CO2 misting method (easy to check if the CO2 is well circulated or not since its visual) using either 2-3 diffusers (clean it often) or feeding CO2 to multiple powerheads with spraybars (flow pattern similar to the filter setups).
> 
> Regards
> Peter Gwee



Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input. I can't quite visualise the layout you mentioned.

1. To bring the spray bars all the way to the bottom and face them to the front of the tank + drill 2 x small holes at the top for water-surface agitation (so water flow from the spray bars is from the back slope to the front)
2. To place the inlet bars at each corners.
3. To have the CO2 diffuser right at the centre.

Would this be correct?

I am using one of the canisters with 3 Bio balls, should I revert it back to the diffuser or from the extension from the canister with the 3 bio balls replace the current elbow and have an extension that leads to a spray back and lay it out at the bottom too?

Would this provide a better CO2 distribution?

----------


## StanChung

> standoyo, high CO2 does not kill BBA! It just stops it from growing. 
> 
> BBA comes in whenever your CO2 dips or whenever it goes up/down during the photoperiod. Upping the CO2 won't kill it but will stop the growth...
> 
> Regards
> Peter Gwee


i have tried this method but it doesn't work for me. so i'm not saying anymore because obviously it works for a lot of people here.
 :Embarassed:  

i firmly believe it's ammonia, lack of co2 and other essential nutrient and the big factor is high light. not discounting some other mysterious elements.

peter, you don't think 8X flowrate per hour is too much? the eheim website recommends ~1-2x flowrate only for it's canisters...http://www.eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/en...ail_24523_ehen

4X is already much higher than recommended there. anyways greyfox can tell us...  :Smile:

----------


## PeterGwee

> Hi Peter,
> 
> Thanks for your input. I can't quite visualise the layout you mentioned.
> 
> 1. To bring the spray bars all the way to the bottom and face them to the front of the tank + drill 2 x small holes at the top for water-surface agitation (so water flow from the spray bars is from the back slope to the front)
> 2. To place the inlet bars at each corners.
> 3. To have the CO2 diffuser right at the centre.
> 
> Would this be correct?


The method is really for an inline reactor with the filter. For a diffuser, you would need to place the spraybar vertically which will give you some surface movement with the hole near the surface and the rest to push the mist from the diffuser around the tank (place the diffuser along the path of the filter outlet current down low.). Play around with the flow pattern so as to get the mist around the whole tank especially the plants. You would need about 2-3 diffusers to do it well.

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

----------


## PeterGwee

> i have tried this method but it doesn't work for me. so i'm not saying anymore because obviously it works for a lot of people here.
>  
> 
> i firmly believe it's ammonia, lack of co2 and other essential nutrient and the big factor is high light. not discounting some other mysterious elements.


You are not doing something right or you have way too many fishes in one tank. Do you have any surface movement to go along with the incremental method? Shut off the CO2 at night? Use the mist? Make sure that the tank circulation is good? (Using mist helps since you can visually check it.). 




> peter, you don't think 8X flowrate per hour is too much? the eheim website recommends ~1-2x flowrate only for it's canisters...http://www.eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/en...ail_24523_ehen
> 
> 4X is already much higher than recommended there. anyways greyfox can tell us...


A tank with no plants...maybe 1-2x is enough since there is less restriction. A spraybar outlet spreads out the current better and placing it at the bottom back rear allows massive current with less issues on the plants.

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

----------


## valice

I concur that 1-2x the flowrate is for empty tanks... For densely populated planted tanks like ours, there is alot of obstractions... In addition, we like to hide our inlets or outlet tubes behind plants, it would indirectly reduce the flowrate...

In addition, if you have a packed filter media with bio, and mechanical in it, the flowrate again drops... Plus the height differential between the tank and the filter plays a part too...

It is always better to over filter rather than underfilter... I get more worried that I see suspending stuff in my tank and not moving than to see a "whirlpool"...

----------


## grey_fox

> A tank with no plants...maybe 1-2x is enough since there is less restriction. A spraybar outlet spreads out the current better and placing it at the bottom back rear allows massive current with less issues on the plants.
> 
> Regards
> Peter Gwee


Hi Peter,

Having the spraybar situated at the back would be good but wouldn't that start blowing the muck, plants, etc? Also from what I can tell, my plants are growing rather well with the T5 lights installed, they look healthy now. However as mentioned, not much or no visible pearling can be seen.

My tank has surface agitation but I just find it a bit too strong as my spray bar right now (for the filter without the diffuser) is situated at the top. The other filter carries the CO2 diffuser with the bio balls.

Also I read through this http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=13643 does that do any good? I feel that my CO2 circulation is not very good. Would it be better if I put more Bio balls in (as recommended by the LFS near my place - she has 5 bioballs, 3 big 2 small) and I don't see any visible bubbles coming out from the output. In my setup I do see visible CO2 bubbles (at the water surface) where the diffuser is. Would this be due to the improper mixture of the CO2 from my filter's output to the diffuser with the bio balls?

Lastly, my water quality is not as clear as I hope it would be. It is not cloudy but what I can see are little particles (be it uneaten food or blown up muck) should I invest in better filter media (or filter? - I am looking at the Eheim Professional 3 - think 1 of that would be sufficient yeah? Recommendations from your experienced hands & minds would definitely do me good.) (by the way I have not touched the canister filters over a period of 4 weeks; wonder if it is time to do a bit of clean up). I also understand for the posts here that in order for the beneficial bacteria to 'stay alive' during this clean up period of the filters, I should use the aged water in my tank to do the washing. 

Correct me if I am wrong.  :Smile:

----------


## |squee|

If you find it too strong (water surface rippling obviously) then lower the angle of the rainbar "stream of water", or change it to vertical, placed along a corner of your tank. 

Regarding Tom's internal reactor, it's tested and proven. It still works, even though nowadays people are changing to diffusors (because of Tom's new discovery...) . The key to making this reactor work is to have good water distribution throughout the tank. I don't understand this question:
"Would this be due to the improper mixture of the CO2 from my filter's output to the diffuser with the bio balls?"

You might have to clean up if your sponges are clogged from muck in the first few weeks of setup. If not, get finer filter wool. Ask the LFS for advice. 

Yes you're right in using aged water to wash your filter. But if youare washing only the sponges, it's okay to use tap water. Most of the BB(beneficial bacteria) will be in your biological media and in the tank itself.

----------


## grey_fox

> If you find it too strong (water surface rippling obviously) then lower the angle of the rainbar "stream of water", or change it to vertical, placed along a corner of your tank. 
> 
> Regarding Tom's internal reactor, it's tested and proven. It still works, even though nowadays people are changing to diffusors (because of Tom's new discovery...) . The key to making this reactor work is to have good water distribution throughout the tank. I don't understand this question:
> *"Would this be due to the improper mixture of the CO2 from my filter's output to the diffuser with the bio balls?"*
> 
> You might have to clean up if your sponges are clogged from muck in the first few weeks of setup. If not, get finer filter wool. Ask the LFS for advice. 
> 
> Yes you're right in using aged water to wash your filter. But if youare washing only the sponges, it's okay to use tap water. Most of the BB(beneficial bacteria) will be in your biological media and in the tank itself.


In bold would mean that my canister filter is connecter to a diffuser (those with the bio balls) and thus, when the water is being blown back in by the output I can see CO2 bubble along with it. Would that mean that the diffusion in the diffuser + bio balls are not good enough? Heh, hopefully you can picture what I am trying to say. 

Also, I believe that I must do a clean up of the filters (believe that the wool must be clogged up) I guess for the rest of the media, ceremic rings, carbon & those small black bio-balls, I won't wash those. Depending on the smell of the filter (really stale smell) I might have to replace the filter wool correct? Additionally, what I would need to do is to find a way to have a better water-flow and think of where I can position the spray bar(s).

I will also add the latest picture in once I take it. 

As mentioned my plants are indeed growing better than ever. Just that the water quality can be better  :Smile:  

Still, I'm learning something new everyday from you guys. Really appreciate the help/assistance/advise I've been receiving.  :Grin:

----------


## grey_fox

As promised, this is the latest snapshot of my tank.

----------


## |squee|

Looking good!  :Smile: 

I think you meant *reactor* instead. It's called a reactor, a diffusor is a white ceramic disc device, very much like a very good airstone.

Stale smells aren't good. =/ What's causing the smell?

----------


## grey_fox

Thank you |squee| but believe there's space/room for lots of improvements. Picture too small or else can see the e. tellenus (hope I spelt it correctly) is growing rather well, lots of plantlets sprouting after the light change and the nana now has what looks like a shoot with a flower too. 

Oh :P Didn't know it's known as a reactor, my apologies for all the confusion. So basically my canister sucks in the water, goes through the media and CO2 & water mixes and goes through the output, however I still can see CO2 bubbles, would that mean that the reactor needs more bio balls in order to do a even proper mix & distribution?

I intend to have the output from the reactor changed to a spray bar. Hopefully this would help spread the CO2 more evenly.

I mean no smell yet, I'll be cleaning the canisters tomorrow, so if I do encounter any smells, I should change the filter wool yeah?

I feed my fishes twice daily and a small amount. 

Currently this is the bioload of my tank.

60 neon tetras
4 rummy nose
2 holland ram
10 malayan shirmps (5 fell victim to my congo...)
8 yamato (growing rather large, some blue some reddish)
5 'fresh water' prawns.
4 S.A.E
4 Otos
6 Corys
2 erm 'glass-cleaners' (they look like solefish but are actually plecos, don't really know what they are but they clean the glass good)
6 black widows
3 cherry barbs
2 congos
2 black phantoms
2 'red' phantoms
2 neon rainbow fishes
4 leopard danios
and 
2 zebra danios

Too much load I am having?

Plus all the flora there. Btw, I was at Serangoon North today and bought Seachem trace, potassium & iron. Anything else I am missing?

When I do the water change tomorrow, I will add in the ferts as per instructed on the bottle. Also, I've only seen 1 plant pearl before and only for 5 minutes, :P 

Wonder what else must I do to see the plants pearl successfully.....

----------


## |squee|

If you encounter a disgusting smell, the BB in the filter is all dead long ago.  :Razz:  

I do not know about the bioballs... perhaps someone else can help you. 

Well you're missing Nitrogen. Phosphorous can be omitted because of your fish load.

----------


## PeterGwee

> Phosphorous can be omitted because of your fish load.


No!  :Crying:  Maybe less KNO3 but definitely not the PO4.

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

----------


## grey_fox

> No!  Maybe less KNO3 but definitely not the PO4.
> 
> Regards
> Peter Gwee


KNO3 = Potassium Nitrate?
PO4 = Phosphates?

So I bought the wrong stuff?

----------


## grey_fox

Just did my canister filter wash and added in a surface skimmer, 30 mins and no more protein layer  :Smile: 

Also the filters were *exteremly* filthy but no bad smell, replaced the filter wool as it was beyond the washing, too filthy. 

Bathed the ceramic rings, activated carbon & bio balls in the aged water and re-positioned the spray bars to the bottom, lesser surface agitation and must cleaner looking water.

Changed about 35-40% of the water and added in trace elements, potassium and iron into the replaced water.

Hope I did things right this time round  :Smile:

----------


## grey_fox

Just to ask, is 8 x 54W T5 tubes too powerful for my 5 ft tank?

----------


## StanChung

> You are not doing something right or you have way too many fishes in one tank. Do you have any surface movement to go along with the incremental method? Shut off the CO2 at night? Use the mist? Make sure that the tank circulation is good? (Using mist helps since you can visually check it.). 
> 
> 
> Regards
> Peter Gwee


i def was not doing something right despite the glamour expensive fert/equipment etc...i can tell straight away.  :Grin:  

i had a small tank[100l] with co2 injection 5 bubbles ps, solenoid, timer
12 hr photo period. 100 l with like 5 bubble per second. 
fishless[any fish i put in there gasps...] supposed to be plant nursery. 
72 w of ADA pl light. co2 reactor-bubble counter etc, base fert dennerle, top grey lapis, and ADA multi long bottom, 'azoo red balls' and some root monster. an ecco [the tallest one]
plants are glosso, hg, limno aquatica, c balansae, downoi, b, japonica, weeping moss etc. the treatment period for the bg which is covered with bba is one week but no improvement. so i scrapped the tank and the bg.

this tank was doing well[except for the glosso] till i upped the light from 40w to 72w. 
at 40 w the co 2 was like 1 bubble per second. few problems and fish can live in it but glosso doesn't grow well in it. light too low. [the height is 2ft] 

normally if there was bba infestation...the hands go in to scrape the wc then redose fert. check whatever... everything is functioning. i don't increase co2 because it's always enough unless there's malfunction/tank empty/low pressure. and they bba only comes back when another time of neglect or malfunction appears. 
i only upped the co2 after reading about upping the co2 to stop/control bba growth somewhere...had to take all the fish out. shrimps were jumping out!

in this case the bba was on the black poly bg. can't really scrape it without damaging the bg so i just scrapped the tank.  :Knockout:  

the question is, how come plants in nature can do reasonably well without co2 injection? is tom barr's venturi design co2 reactor a clue? my guess is normal air gets into a wash.[fine bubbles] these bubbles get trapped underneath the leaves of plants in rivers-supplying them co2? make sense? but in tank conditions, in my experience the plants look so so only... like in some parts of nature perhaps. torn here and there, soaked in mud and more brown than green. haha.
-------
what i think is grey fox need to sort out the other things before he ups the co2. 4-5 bubbles a sec is a lot already IMO. upping it a little can't hurt but doubt it will solve his bba issues without sorting the other matters like flowrate, temp, etc. just my opinion.

----------


## StanChung

must have been dreaming, missed the very nice pix...good job. hahaha.

doesn't look like you got bba problem at all. sigh...

all that ranting...getting old nia.

if the co2 bubbles gets blown out from the reactor... it could be due to co2 saturation in the water. meaning no more co2 can dissolve in the water properly...

----------


## grey_fox

Looks like after I changed the water. I have the following casualties...

1 x neon tetra
1 x yamato
1 x spotted danio
1 x oto.

 :Knockout:

----------


## grey_fox

> must have been dreaming, missed the very nice pix...good job. hahaha.
> 
> doesn't look like you got bba problem at all. sigh...
> 
> all that ranting...getting old nia.
> 
> if the co2 bubbles gets blown out from the reactor... it could be due to co2 saturation in the water. meaning no more co2 can dissolve in the water properly...


Hehe, think the pic is too small to see the bba slowly creeping up some of the leaves on the plant.

Also, since the saturation is that high, would that mean that it would be dangerous for my fishes (although I don't see them gasping). 

Also, as mentioned earlier, is 8 x T5 54W too powerful for my tank?

That would bring it to a whopping 432W (107 US Gallon tank) @ 4.03W/Gallon

----------


## ranmasatome

With most of the plants you're growing.. you dont need that much light.. 

with this much light..its either you will get tired of trimming the plants since they grow so fast.. or you will go broke with the dosing schedule to keep algae at bay.. note though that if you have higher light.. everything grows faster..so if you muck up somewhere.. you will know very fast... algae also comes fast fast.

----------


## StanChung

> With most of the plants you're growing.. you dont need that much light.. 
> 
> with this much light..its either you will get tired of trimming the plants since they grow so fast.. or you will go broke with the dosing schedule to keep algae at bay.. note though that if you have higher light.. everything grows faster..so if you muck up somewhere.. you will know very fast... algae also comes fast fast.


hi grey fox,

must have missed this question. yes, yes yes...agree with everything bro ranmasatome says. sooo. try 2.5 WPG not 4. with 4 WPG you have to be like mother nature with regular rain[WC] and dosing and lots of tlc.

lighting is imo the biggest factor in the speed of algae blooms...
miss one wc or od on something, under dose on something or something died and rotted... then the mess will happen so quickly you wish you had better things to do...
 :Knockout:

----------


## StanChung

point to note is t5 seems to be more efficient than regular t8 t12 because thin tubes give reflectors more spce to bounce more light into tank.
sooo...stick with 4 tubes unless you decide to plant glosso and it grows tall in your tank.

----------


## StanChung

the bubbles being blown out from the co2 reactor could also be due to the powerful pump... does this happen as soon as an hour into co2 is fed or like end of the day?

----------


## grey_fox

Hi bros,

Thank you for the feedback, I already purchase the other T5 so.. unless I am planning to let it go, I guess what I will do is use 6 x T5 instead of 8 then. I will just switch off one of its switch I guess. 

Anyways, here is an update of my tank after 1 week. Apologies for the grainy picture. The first picture taken a week ago was shot in the night, the latest picture was just taken. A little bright.



Anyways, any idea what sort of a pleco this here is?

----------


## StanChung

they are ballitoridaes...

Gastromyzon sp. or Pseudogastromyzon sp. aka hillstream loaches.

or butterfly pleco... so many names...

http://www.bobd.lunarpages.com/loaches/breeding.html

as for the lights i don't mind buying second hand... haha.

seriously you can turn all tubes on to take photos and keep only six running. hmm so you'll always have spares in case of blown tubes.

----------


## ranmasatome

those arent plecos in anyway...

----------


## |squee|

The tank is looking good! 

What are the current problems if any?

----------


## grey_fox

Hehe, yeah hillstream loaches  :Smile:  Thanks for the I.Ding part  :Smile:  Also, thanks for the compliment, my first time doing any 'scaping' so I'm still at the amateur level... 

|squee| only problem I have is the BBA I guess, I trimmed a number of leaves today that had BBA over it. Hopefully with the fertz & proper CO2 lighting, it will all work out fine...

Anyways, I face this other problem now.... I just came back from my reunion dinner and lo-behold, I found this 'torn leaf' of my blynx somehow stuck onto my E. Tennellus. So I used my net to scoop it up... however I found that it was a caterpillar?!?!

Here's the picture of it in its cacoon.



And another after removing its 'shell'.. 



What in the world is that?!?! I flushed the bugger down the toilet bowl...

----------


## ranmasatome

its not a caterpillar... you have ID-ing problems..lol..joking la..

Its probably a caddisfly larvae..

----------


## grey_fox

Hehe thanks  :Smile: 

Yah I'm quite bad at the ID-ing department, sad to say.

Anyways, lately after my filter/water change about a week back, I've been having quite a number of casualties, which kinds of worries me.

So far these are the casualties.

5 x neon tetras
2 x hillstream loaches
1 x yamato 
1 x spotted danio
1 x oto

I'm wondering if it is the water change? I measured the PH/KH and it reflects the following.

PH = 6.8
KH = 5

I do not have a test kit for nitrate levels. Also could it be my water temperature? It is currently stagnant at 27.6 degrees which I personally think is quite warm. Even before the upgrade to the T5 lights, that was the temperature during mid day after about 4 hours of lighting.

Should I invest in a chiller and also, what fits my budget of S$300 for my 107US Gallon tank or 405L tank. I would prefer to have my tank at a constant temperature @ 26 degrees, would D.I.Y fans be worth making since my tank is so big?

----------


## StanChung

those caterpillars will eat all the blyxas and soft leaved plants in the tank. the fella is very annoying as it attacks the base of the plant killing my blyxas. i did not realise what was sticking to tank glass till i got a closer look.

later you will notice some black insect flying around. i did cos insects are rare 18 floors up.

----------


## grey_fox

Yah, it actually destroyed one of my blyxas already. How did it in the first place lay its eggs? From the plants I bought?

Irritating me already. Caught and killed a 2nd one today. Grr... hoping to eradicate these buggers before my blyxas become nothing...

Anyways, standoyo, think 27.6 is too high of a temperature and could it be killing my fishes?

----------


## StanChung

since it's a new tank, casualties are expected. sometimes from shock or whatever.
measured ammonia? if not, just reduce feeding for awhile till the filter matures.
if you suspect disease then squint and look at the fishes for signs. heavy breathing like darth vader... rapid breathing... and weird swimming plus the usual white stringy faeces, pop eye, ich, 'burnt' fins etc.

----------


## grey_fox

Yeah, tank is about a month plus already. But in the beginning there wasn't much casualties, only after I did the filter wash/change. 

I guess what I will do is feed once a day until the tank kicks in and matures well.

So far (after squinting) the fishes are ok, no dropsy, white spots, fungus, velvet and no darth vader styled breathing or shimmying, will continue to monitor.

I also found a ramshorn snail in my tank today... good god, getting all these creatures for 'free'.... first the caddisfly larvae and now ramshorn snail(s)....

So basically my temperature is O.K? 27.6 degrees?

----------


## StanChung

27.6 is great... your fish i suspect suffered a bit when you clean the filter. i always not feed the fish day after cleaning the filter. since you have two filters, don't clean them both at same time.

not sure how i got my unwanted caterpillars but it coincided with buying and planting of new plants. so that could be a clue.

----------


## grey_fox

Hmm thought that the fishes need cooler waters to live in.. anyways, just worried that might've been the cause. 

Heh, a little too late for not cleaning them at the same time.

Damn larvae.... *sigh* Anyways, I shouldn't worry about the ramshorn yeah? Or should I introduce a puffer to control the population?

----------


## StanChung

aiyo, ramshorn can leave alone till population reaches like 20 plus... then only get a pygmy puffer.

otherwise your shrimp also become targets. you have shrimp? yamatos and banana are fairly safe...

----------


## grey_fox

Ah I see, ok will leave them alone. They bury themselves during the day right?

Yup I do have Yamatos, they've grown pretty large so I guess they won't actually be in harms way. Anyways, this pygmy puffer, how big can it grow to?

----------


## StanChung

from what i've seen a centimeter plus. def less than 2 cm. the point is to have steady supply of snails for the fella...

during the lights on period some snails do come out.

----------


## grey_fox

I saw one of them, went to clear the blynxas leaves (due to the caddisfly larave's destruction) and the fella disappeared...

Will the pygmy puffer bloat up if threatened?

----------


## StanChung

it doesn't balloon... that's more of a marine puffer i think. [finding nemo kind] :Grin:  don't know much about marine...except it's salt water
 :Roll Eyes:

----------


## grey_fox

Today is a sad day for me. 

My female Holland Ram died... as mentioned previously, a number of my fishes started dying off after I did a filter change/wash. I don't understand what is killing them off.

My plants are all healthy except for the fact that my fishes are dying off.. with no sign of disease at all! What else could be killing off my fishes? Any help/ideas experienced ones?

----------


## |squee|

Could you elaborate more on the filter change/wash?

----------


## grey_fox

I did the filter change a week back. I used aged water to wash the filter media (ceramic rings/bio-balls & activated carbon) I threw away the filter wool as it was beyond washing conditions and replaced it with new filter wool which I soaked and washed with the aged water too. 

I also did a 30-40% water change.

After this, a few days later some of my neon tetras starting dying off without signs of sickness/ailment. Could it be the water change or the water temperature? It is currently at 27.6 degrees.

So far these are the casualties.

12 neon tetras
1 neon rainbow
1 congo tetra
2 oto
1 yamato
1 spotted danio
2 hill stream loaches
1 holland ram (latest)

It's really upsetting to wake up and see my fish die... Strange thing is that there is no sign of disease, which makes it weirder.

Also before my holland ram died, she was eating, etc.  :Sad:

----------


## |squee|

Get an ammonia test kit and test for ammonia. 

I can't think of anything that can harm your fish except the above, other than the obscure possibility of the filter wool being posionous. The AC might be leeching back toxins into the water as well after too long usage. 

Another thing I find weird is the lack of shrimp deaths. Check your fish food...

----------


## grey_fox

I don't have a test kit for ammonia, should I get one, what would be the 'safe' level for ammonia in the water?

Should I replace the AC? Any way for me to test for these toxins? Also what sort of toxins should be leaking out? Ammonia?

Yeah that's the very weird thing, all my shrimps are surviving, only casualties are those that I mentioned. Normally I would think that the shrimps would be the first to go...

----------


## |squee|

I'm sorry I do not know, because I've never tested for ammonia in my life. 

You should if the AC has been in use for 3 months (or was it 6 months.. someone please help). All sorts of toxins, whatever it has absorbed in the 3 or 6 months will be released again. Search the forums on AC expiry. 

Is your fish food mouldy?

----------


## grey_fox

|squee| dude,

It is indeed that AC that was killing my fishes. They're all a-O.K now  :Smile: 

Anyways, just as an update this is my tank at its current stage.

----------


## |squee|

Looking good!  :Well done:  

Seems the next thing to work on is water clarity  :Razz:  Always a pain in the *** to wait for it.

----------


## grey_fox

Hey Terence,

Thanks for the thumbs up. Bingo. :P You read my mind, anyways, I just got to wait for the water to clear up huh cos I don't want to use those crystal-clear-solutions for my tank at all.

----------


## |squee|

It will clear up... if I'm not wrong it takes a longer time for a big tank like yours to be matured compared to... a 2footer for example.

----------


## StanChung

hey greyfox,

looking very good...really fast too. last i looked it was sparse now everything is nice. must be the erm...lights! jealous jealous...hee

btw ammonia reading should be zero or close to it...

----------


## grey_fox

Hey there standoyo,

Thanks  :Smile: . Must be the lights for sure.

Anyways, my water has 'snowflakes' dirt particles floating around. I wonder if this will be cleared up after a while or is it due to my filter not really peformaing its tasks? 

I'm really envious of tanks with almost crystal clear water and am waiting to acheive this myself.

Also, I noticed (must be the lights) there's some staghorn algae growing on my e.tellenus which really irritates me. 

My CO2 is currently at 30PPM at the moment (tested with KH & PH kit - plus finally my plants are pearling  :Smile: )) ) 

What would you guys suggest for a fert (liquid) regime for my tank's size.

I have the following 

Seachem traces, potassium, iron & sera florena iron & minerals.

----------


## |squee|

Up the CO2 a little bit more. Don't rigourously adhere to 30ppm. I'd personally have a 35ppm standard. 

You better get started with NPK dosing. I'll let Peter do the job of suggesting.

----------


## StanChung

i doubt there's a difference in 30 or 35 ppm co2. just snip the offending leaves and get on with the fert routine. it's probably just old leaves. seriously no big deal. snip snip!

----------


## grey_fox

> Up the CO2 a little bit more. Don't rigourously adhere to 30ppm. I'd personally have a 35ppm standard. 
> 
> You better get started with NPK dosing. I'll let Peter do the job of suggesting.



What is NPK?

----------


## StanChung

NPK-new plant kooler  :Grin:   :Blah: 

no la

nitrogen phosphorus kalium[potassium] if i'm not mistaken... :Opps: 
normally in NO3[nitrate], PO4[phosphate] and KNO3/KH2SO4

----------


## |squee|

N- Nitrogen, N is also the chemical symbol for nitrogen
P- Phosphorous, P is the chemical symbol
K- Potassium, K is the chemical symbol 

N can be from KNO3, or organic waste like ammonia/ammonium and various stages of filtration waste etc etc.
P can be taken from leftover waste food, or from organic waste. KH2PO4 also provides this.
K is usually supplemented. KNO3 and KH2PO4 combined provide good amount of K.

----------


## grey_fox

Terence, 

Thanks, another (dumb) question. So KNO3 & KH2PO4 is what is already in the tank/water and waste products?

Or 

KNO3 & KH2PO4 can be purchased?

My apologies if it is indeed a dumb question but would love further insight on this.

----------


## grey_fox

> NPK-new plant kooler  
> 
> no la
> 
> nitrogen phosphorus kalium[potassium] if i'm not mistaken...
> normally in NO3[nitrate], PO4[phosphate] and KNO3/KH2SO4


:P See my (dumb) question I posted to find out more insight on the NPK

----------


## |squee|

KNO3 and KH2PO4 need to be purchased. I just was saying that a small amount of nitrogen and phosphate can usually be obtained from the tank's waste products (mainly from fish). In a CO2-enriched tank, that small amount provided is usually not enough, so we provide more through products like KNO3 and KH2PO4, or commercial fertilisers.

----------


## grey_fox

OK next question. Where can I purchase KNO3 and KH2PO4 from or are these 'controlled' items?

Anyone able to answer this question? Preferably in the east better  :Smile:

----------


## |squee|

KNO3 can be purchased from good gardening centres. Just ask the counter. Another name for it is stump remover. Make sure it's pure KNO3 and not added with something else.

KH2PO4 can be substituted by the product Fleet Enema. Find it at pharmacies. It's a bowel-movement inducer. 

Both chemicals can be bought at Nature Aquarium too.

----------


## StanChung

a perfectly understandable question and take it step by step...

terence has filled in the...

----------


## grey_fox

Will go source out for these items ASAP.  :Smile:

----------


## grey_fox

Ok, another question. I'm using Chuck's calculator right now. 

My tank is a 107 Gallon tank.

If i dissolve 300gm of KNO3 in 1000ml of water. My PPM is only at 0.45PPM and the targeted amount is 5PPM?!

300gm is a lot if you ask me or am I doing something wrong here.

----------


## |squee|

The online calculator is stupid, I downloaded the download-able calculator where Chuck has included calculations for "dissolving in stock solution" and "dose dry direct to tank". I think you confused it here.

Download the calculator here, or try APC's Fertilator.

----------


## grey_fox

Hi Terence,

You are correct, I was confused. 

I happen to have Fleet Enema already (yup to induce bowel movement) so that would actually be KH2PO4 or known as Phosphate. I have not sourced for KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) yet. As for Potassium, I already have Seachem's Flourish Potassium so I don't need the KCI, correct?

However, doesn't every tank with fishes produce nitrates (through wastes? am i correct or wrong?  :Opps:  )or am I wrong about this?

This is the current recommended levels by from Chuck's calculator (downloaded onto my brother's PC as I am using a Mac).




> KNO3 - Nitrate from Potassium Nitrate.
> 5PPM = 3.3gm ~ 0.6 teaspoons (approx. 3 ml)
> 
> MgSO4 + 7H2O - Magnesium in Magnesium Sulfate (is this needed?)
> 5-10PPM = 30gm ~ 5 teaspoons (approx. 25ml)
> 
> KH2PO4 (Phosphate in Mono Potassium Phosphate)
> 1PPM = 0.5gm ~ 1/10 teaspoon (approx. 0.5ml too little?)
> 
> ...


Now, this amounts are meant on a weekly basis, which means I am supposed to split up the dosages? Or add it at one go after I have done the 50% water change?

Also, where does the *trace elements* come into play (I have Seachem's trace) and should I follow as per instructed? 5 ml for every 80L of water which equates to _25ml of trace elements (as my tank is 405L)_

Btw, what about *Iron (Fe)& Nitrogen (N)* ? 

Hope I'm getting it right.  :Embarassed:  (btw, I've manually removed the hair algae, GSA) and upped my CO2 to attain 30PPM at the moment without casualties + pearling of the plants now including the e. tellenus.

----------


## |squee|

Actually you already have enough K from KNO3 and KH2PO4, but no harm to add potassium individually from Seachem Potassium. Note it's KCl (potassium chloride), not KCI  :Smile:  

Yes every tank with fishes produce nitrates, but in a CO2-enriched tank the plants depend on these nitrates if they cannot get nitrogen from somewhere else. And since we're doing the EI we make the plants depend on the NO3 we dose from KNO3. The nitrates fish produce in this case is not enough unless you have a humongous fish load, which is asking for trouble anyway since ammonia will be present first before they're converted to nitrates and ammonia triggers algae. 

You don't need magnesium sulfate. 

*Nitrate:*
Imho, 1 teaspoon of KNO3 will be better to get the 5ppm mark, but personally I'd go above 10ppm.

*Phosphorous:*
If you're dosing by Fleet Enema, you have to calculate it out with APC's Fertilator (Fleet enema is not pure KH2PO4). I did it for you, 1ml of Fleet Enema in your 405L tank will give you 1.65ppm of phosphate.
*
Potassium:*
I suggest you finish your present bottle of Seachem Potassium (very uneconomical, 100ml is needed for your tank to get 17ppm), and invest in Seachem Equilibrium instead. It provides potassium, iron, magnesium, manganese and calcium! The dosage I use is 0.5 *teaspoon* for 60L. It's agaration here, just to give extra potassium and a little extra of calcium magnesium etc. 

If I'm not wrong, you're supposed to dose these same amounts three times a week; frequency depends on your plant type, density and other factors. Imho, you can dose twice a week for a start (that means dose the above twice a week, not split) and see if the plants need more or can do better if you increase to three times per week. 

Dosage for trace elements has always been according to the manufacturer's instructions. I dose traces three times a week too. 

*Here's my schedule for my 2ft tank with EI for reference:*

Monday: Dose KNO3, KH2PO4
Tuesday: Dose traces
Wednesday: Dose KNO3, KH2PO4
Thursday: Dose traces
Friday: Dose KNO3, KH2PO4
Saturday: 60% water change, Dose KNO3, KH2PO4, Seachem Equillibrium, Dennerle s7(just for the heck of it)
Sunday: Dose traces

Iron is part of trace elements... and nitrogen is taken from your KNO3 *smack your head*

Pearling is good, pearling is good. The bottom line is, if your plants grow well without algae, who the heck cares what you dose to your tanks  :Wink:  

Hope this post isn't confusing for you. I know how it feels to make sense of all these dosing calculations. I strongly suggest you use Fertilator, since it allows you to see the entire overall of what you're adding to your tank at the end of the day.

----------


## grey_fox

Hey Terence,

Thanks for your guide here.  :Smile:  More or less I will now know what is required. I guess what I will need to still get is KNO3, KH2PO4 and Seachem Equilibrium for sure.

*This will be my schedule (don't mind if I do a copy of your schedule) .
*
*Monday:* Dose KNO3 (2 teaspoons) + KH2PO4 (fleet enema @ 0.1 teaspoon)
*Tuesday:* Dose traces (5 teaspoons) 
*Wednesday:* Dose KNO3 + KH2PO4
*Thursday:* Dose traces
*Friday:* Dose KNO3 + KH2PO4
*Saturday:* 50% water change, Dose KNO3+KH2PO4+Seachem Potassium (30ml ~ 6 teaspoons which equates to 0.24PPM)
*Sunday:* Dose traces

*Once I purchase KH2PO4, the dosage will be @ 0.2 teaspoons.*

I used APC's fertilator to get these optimum rates. Once the tank finishes the Seachem Postassium, I will get the equlilbrium. Priority now is to purchase the KNO3.  :Embarassed:  only problem is that my work keeps me away from going down to NA. ( Yes I am that busy....  :Sad:  )

At the rate I does the traces, I will go broke very very soon (Do they sell traces in amounts like 1L or bigger?). Heh. Since I did the water change yesterday but did not do the proper input of the traces, I will do so and start the cycle.

I hope that this is now (more or less) correct for my kick-start to better plant health and lesser algae and of course, to be a E.I believer. 

*thanks ah for the smack on the head* hehe.

----------


## |squee|

Do note that I may be wrong, I'm actually hoping for PeterGwee to comment since he's the guru on dosing the EI. 

Assuming your calculations are all correct, I'd say yea that's a good routine. You might want to dose the traces in less amount if you want to save... dosing excess is fine but why do so if you won't get better plant growth? Have to observe your tank for a while in this case imho. 

Sorry uncle, I take back my smack. I'm a 18 year old bugger who has no sense of respect for elders.  :Grin:

----------


## grey_fox

Just came back from a plant nursery, the sales staff gave me a stumped look when I asked if they have stump remover.... no Potassium Nitrate found at all and its not those small nurseries, its those mega nurseries....  :Sad:

----------


## valice

Why don't you head to Natural Aquarium since it is close to those mega nurseries? (I assuming you went to the Thomson nurseries)

----------


## grey_fox

Heh, I was actually around my place in bedok, there are a total of 3 nurseries and none had it. I couldn't believe it actually....

----------


## ranmasatome

Greyfox,

i see that you're using teaspoons for your measurement.. this is quite "aggaration". Why dont you switch to using syringes.. its still "aggaration" but its definitely more accurate than teaspoons...Also.. when posting your dosing regime.. try not to state 1 teasppon of this or 2 teaspoon of that.. no use to anyone in helping you..that kind of information is all realtive so its pretty much useless... instead.. state how much ppm you're adding to the tank per day..or per week....

I think the KNo3 you can get from NA and i reccomend dosing that for your macros..Reason being if you switch to using KNo3, you will get both.. K and No3. Also dont use Seachem Trace for your trace...its quite rubbish actually... just go straight to Flourish and use that as trace instead...also Flourish has some N in it..so tahts good too..albeit quite little

Dont worry about overdosing.. you can dose as much as 100ppm of No3 weekly b4 you get toxicity issues.

My personal dosing regime for my 50gal tank...T5HO 156watts

monday : 20ml of KNo3 - which gives me 10ppm of No3 and 6.5ppm of K , 5ml of Po4 - which gives me 1.5ppm of Po4
Tuesday : Seachem Flourish - 20ml and Seachem Iron -20ml
Wednesday : 20ml of KNo3, 1.5ppm of Po4
Thursday : Seachem Flourish - 20ml and Seachem Iron -20ml
Friday : 20ml of KNo3, 1.5ppm of Po4
Sat : Seachem Flourish - 20ml and Seachem Iron -20ml
Sunday : 50% water change, followed by 20ml of KNo3, 1.5ppm of Po4, 2hrs later - Seachem Flourish - 20ml and Seachem Iron -20ml

As you can see...on a weekly basis.. my tank goes through 40ppm of No3, 26-30ppm of K, 5-6ppm of Po4 and a crap load of traces.. 

You may not have to go thru so much...as you go along you'll see waht your tank needs and doesnt need and can adjust from there as most tanks are different.. however i know you're using T5Ho as well..so.. you're in for some fun..hahaha..Trying to keep your No3 brinking around 10ppm weekly is asking for trouble in a high light tank..although not impossible..

Also.. if y&#243;ur water KH is more than 3...then dont need to get equilibrium... what are you going to use it for?? everything is already covered..besides..it gives you a crapload of K which i dont like.. messes up the regime.

----------


## grey_fox

Yo Ranmastone.

Where can I get syringes from? Pharmacy again? I bought fleet enema from there and now if I buy a syringe, I wonder what they'll be thinking of... 

100PPM of NO3 is definitely really high... Seachem's traces is really crap? So which is better now, Seachem's Flourish or Equilibrium?

Also, can someone advise what time NA closes? They carry Seachem's Flourish or Equilibrium there? And roughly how big a bottle is the KNO3 and the price range? Also how much is either Flourish or Equilibrium?

Ranmasatome, in otherwords, what you are saying is that it is O.K to do an extra dosage? But like what Terence mentioned, 




> You might want to dose the traces in less amount if you want to save... dosing excess is fine but why do so if you won't get better plant growth?


Which is true... which equates to cost-savings too  :Smug:  

P/S: Once again, correct me if I am wrong.

----------


## ranmasatome

syringes you can get from any doctor or GP clinic..or hospital..or pharmacy..

I'm not saying seachems traces are crap.. i'm saying that the product "trace" is quite crap.. go straight to seachem flourish to use as trace.. Equilibrium IS NOT trace... its totally different usage. i'm lazy..so go read up..about them and what they have in each product and what it is actually used for.. :Smile: 

Kno3 comes in a packet..not bottle.. 
They carry everything you need...ask Chan while you're there for prices.. but be assured that those prices are really hard to beat.. :Smug: . i'm going down soon to get 10 bottles of seachem flourish/iron from him... too bad they dont sell the 2l or 5l bottles here..

Extra dosing is what E.I. is...DUH!.. :Smug:  it is a plant buffet concept and the best way for you to go with this high light tank.. like i said..if you want to keep to the fringes of what is needed to save moeny you can.. its not impossible.. but with such a high light tank.. if anything goes wrong.. you will find out very very fast...plants grow fast.. algae also grows fast.. :Smile:

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## grey_fox

ranmasatome,

Appreciate the feedback. My bad for mixing up the Flourish & Equilibrium portion as well as misunderstanding the 'true' concept of what E.I is all about, pardon me for being a newbie.  :Smile: 

I guess I will take my chances and do an O.D but well within the safe region at least. 

On my shopping list are the following then.

Seachem's Flourish & Equilibrium
KNO3
Syringe 

 :Smile: 

Since an O.D should be performed this is my current layout for the plant buffet.

Monday: Dose KNO3 (2.5 teaspoons ~19.68PPM of NO3) + KH2PO4 (fleet enema @ 1 ml ~ 1.64PPM of PO4)
Tuesday: Dose traces (5 teaspoons) - will replace it with Flourish & Iron
Wednesday: Dose KNO3 + KH2PO4
Thursday: Dose traces
Friday: Dose KNO3 + KH2PO4
Saturday: 50% water change, Dose KNO3+KH2PO4+Seachem Potassium (50ml ~ 6 teaspoons which equates to 6.17PPM + 12.41PPM from 2.5 tps from KNO3 of K)
Sunday: Dose traces 
*This will be adjusted after I see how things go. I might then follow you routine/regime but have it customised to suit my tank. 

My KH is now at 4, which means for the time being I don't need Equilibrium, but since I'll be going down to NA. I might as well just get myself a bottle or two for keeps-sake. 

More importantly, I must get KNO3, KH2PO4 & Flourish & not forgetting a syringe  :Smile:  

Once items are purchased, more or less, I will be able to judge, guage and see. 

Can't agree more with you on the fact that plants grow fast, so does algae =\

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## ranmasatome

Hey greyfox..no worries la.. not frust or anything like that.. like i say loh.. i'm lazy..hahahaha.. :Smug:  no need to pardon..kekeke :Smile: 

Anyway..thnk you can drop your Kno3 dosage to around 12 ppm per dose

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## grey_fox

Heh, no hard feelings in the first place to begin with and you're imparting your knowledge since you're into this hobby longer than I have been in it. I don't need fancy words, just a better understanding of the E.I in layman terms. 

Give me _C++ programming or DB programming_ and I can do wonders, give me chemistry and experimenting with dosages, quite bad with that.  :Smile: 

This will be my finalised dosage routine for the time-being. 

*Monday:* Dose KNO3 _(1.5 teaspoons ~11.81PPM of NO3)_ + KH2PO4 _(fleet enema @ 1 ml ~ 1.64PPM of PO4)_ + Seachem Potassium _(until the bottle runs dry - 6.17PPM + 7.45PPM from 1.5 tps from KNO3 of K = 13.62PPM)_

*Tuesday:* Dose traces_ (5 teaspoons)_ _(replacing with Flourish)_

*Wednesday:* Dose KNO3 + KH2PO4 + Seachem Potassium _(replacing with Equilibrium)_

*Thursday:* Dose traces 

*Friday:* Dose KNO3 + KH2PO4 + + Seachem Potassium 

*Saturday:* 50% water change, Dose KNO3 + KH2PO4 + Seachem Potassium 

*Sunday:* Dose traces

*Total NO3 per week -* 47.24PPM (too much for my fauna to handle?)
*Total PO4 per week -* 6.56PPM (induce algae?)
*Total Fe per week -* +1.6PPM 
*Total K per week -* 54.48PPM 
*Ca, Mg, etc*  will gather from the Traces or Flourish

Sufficient or insufficient?

Any comments, Terence and Ranmasatome since I'm doing a copy of both your routines.

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## PeterGwee

You can lower your KNO3 dosage to about max 20-30ppm per week since it is unlikely your tank can eat that much (you pulling out trashbags of weeds weekly?) and the fact that some will come from the fish load as well. Excess isn't an issue though but within limits. Main key thing is to keep up on the CO2.

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

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## grey_fox

Hey Peter,

Currently there are no more weeds in my tank for the time being (after that 5 hours of back-breaking clearing up). More or less (infact more) I have cleaned up the entire tank from weeds.

Ok, If I should aim for 30 PPM per week, that would be 7.5PPM of NO3 (roughly equates to 1 tps or 5 ml) each time should there be a dosage.

My CO2 now is within a range of 30-35PPM, healthy? Also, what other things should I look out for, is 6.56PPM of PO4, 54.48PPM of K too much? 

Also my Fe doses, is that too little just at 1.6PPM?

I'll be heading down to NA later in the day (after work) to purchase the KNO3 and KH2PO4 as well as Flourish & Equilibrium. 

Any idea how much a packet of KNO3 & KH2PO4 should cost?

*PPM numbers are based on a weekly calculation.

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## |squee|

They're not in packets, they're in cylinders. Check out my gallery, pictures are in there somewhere. 

They should amount to less than $30 if I remember correctly (most likely wrong  :Razz: ) but they should last a long time. Mine has lasted for 1 and a half years already for my 2ft tank.

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## ranmasatome

Squee you mean the Kno3?? i bought the big one leh?? like the 500grm or 1kg one... that one i think comes in packets.. the lushgrow one comes in cylinders of 100grms but that runs out too fast for me.. everytime i make a stock solution its like 75grams..hahaha..

Grey.. your Fe is fine. If like what Peter said is true and your tank is not fully stocked and dense then you dont need to dose so much.... my personal tank i need to dose more No3 cos the effects are quite visible when i dont do that... if that is the case for you..then you can also probably cut back on the K to about 20-30 per week and the po4 to about 4 or 5.

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## StanChung

Great detailed explanation on EI. 

complicated imo.

i always thought it was dump in some macros and some TMG then reset with WC. all the while keeping watch on the plants and algae[or lack of it]

...with experience, less WC...and better estimation of plant needs. it is after all an estimative index.

if it was any other beginner i think give up already...[that's a compliment to you greyfox!]  :Grin:

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## grey_fox

Hey Terence, how big are these cylinders that your purchased? Can use for 1 1/2 years means should be big...

Hey ranmasatome, will have to experiment on the dosage to see what is lacking and what is too much, only way I guess, like you mentioned, that's what E.I is all about. Btw, how much is a 1KG packet of KNO3 and a bottle of Flourish? I'll be going down today, so all I need to inform them is I want a packet of KNO3 and they will know what it is? Or should I ask for potassium nitrate?

Hey standoyo,

Heh, thank yah. Taking baby-steps now to E.I.  :Smile:  Thanks for the compliment.

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## grey_fox

Ok, just called NA, their stock for KNO3 is finished.... where else can I get it from?

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## Goondoo

> Ok, just called NA, their stock for KNO3 is finished.... where else can I get it from?


I got mine from the florist beside Ang Mo Kio Library... $5 per 1kg packet I think. :Smile:

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## grey_fox

Hey there Goondoo, can I know the name of the shop? Is KNO3 that difficult to get?

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## Goondoo

> Hey there Goondoo, can I know the name of the shop? Is KNO3 that difficult to get?


I cant remember the name....
Anyway, there is only one florist beside Ang Mo Kio Library.

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## ranmasatome

i just get mine from a friend.. he used to be on the forum as well.. think you can hunt him down if you want.. his nick is andrewtyr

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## grey_fox

Hey Goondoo,

Thanks, any idea if it closes early or late?

*UPDATED*
The place is Ang Mo Kio Floral & Landscape....

Bah... they informed that it is not packed yet and to wait 1 week?? 

 :Sad:  is KNO3 really that difficult to attain?

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## |squee|

> Hey Terence, how big are these cylinders that your purchased? Can use for 1 1/2 years means should be big...


They're just 1L ones... I can use so long because mine is a 2ft tank while yours is much bigger... obviously you'll use up at a faster rate! 

If you want, I have a _tauhway_ tub of KNO3 spare FOC for you, but you got to collect it from Ang Mo Kio Ave 4 Block 615. PM me for more details.

It's really unfortunate for you  :Confused: , can try Ecoculture, or try Dr Mallick's place himself (you drive right?):
Block 461 #01-81 Crawford Lane, Singapore - 190461
Contact Tel: 6291-8153

Another source: Humvee from Arofan. Just ask for the two powders. 

Can't give you prices... it's been ages since I bought KNO3 and KH2PO4.

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## grey_fox

Hey Terence, 

Contacted Dr. Mallick earlier, bought 1 KG of KNO3 from him and LushGRO Aqua too. Total of S$16 only.... Finally....  :Wink:  

Yeah, always the case when you want to get something and it runs out everywhere. Just got to search even harder.  :Roll Eyes:  

Anyways, Dr. Mallick is a very friendly chap, really made my day better when he said that he will personally see me at the shop.  :Cool:  

Yup I do drive. Luckily I called N.A or else I'll be making a wasted trip down there....  :Laughing:  KH2PO4, I'll substitute that with Fleet Enema. Only thing lacking now are the following items. 

_Flourish
Equilibrium
Syringe_

Guess I'll still have to drive down to N.A...  :Confused:  Any idea if Petmart's prices are competitive to N.A or N.A wins hands down?

After gathering all the information and advise from yourself (|squee|), Ranmasatome, standoyo, Peter Gwee, Goondoo & of course, Tom Barr). 

This will be my cocktail for the plant buffet.  :Razz:  

*Mondays*: KNO3 + KH2PO4 
*Tuesdays*: Traces + Seachem Iron
*Wednesdays*: KNO3 + KH2PO4
*Thursdays*: Traces + Seachem Iron
*Fridays*: KNO3 + KH2PO4
*Saturdays*: 50% WC, KNO3 + KH2PO4 + Seachem Potassium 
*Sundays*: Traces + Seachem Iron

*Composition of each dosage at any one time.*
*KNO3* - 1 teaspoon (5ml) ~ 7.87PPM 
*KH2PO4 (Fleet Enema)* - 0.1 teaspoon (1ml) ~ 0.83PPM
*K* - 4.96PPM from KNO3 + 6.17PPM (Saturdays) 
*Fe* - 0.4PPM from K + 0.25PPM from Seachem Iron
*Traces* - 20ML each time.

*Compostion of dosage per week*
*KNO3* - 39.35PPM 

_(Peter, is this still too high? I read from Tom Barr's E.I write-up that anything above 40PPM could cause health issues on fishes - is this 40PPM range based on a weekly dosage or otherwise?)

If this is indeed to high, I will have the KNO3 dosage changed to 0.6 teaspoons or 3ml of KNO3 in each dosage to reach 23.6PPM per week. If this should be recommended, I will have more K added in - 120ml on Saturdays to reach a total of 29.71PPM per week of Potassium

What do you think guys?
 
_ *KH2PO4* - 4.15PPM
*K* - 30.97PPM
*Fe* - 2.75PPM
*Traces* - Mg, Cu, Ca, etc (unknown range - instruction as per Seachem traces of 5ml per 80 litres)

Btw, I have another question I need advise on. As posted previously, my water temp ranges from 27.3 to 28.2 and I read that it is bad for mosses... I'm thinking of either D.I.Y fan (x2 - by the way, which is the quieter one? The bigger one or smaller?) or purchasing a chiller (I think I need a 1/10HP) Need your advise on which should be a better buy in the long run... to D.I.Y or to get a chiller?

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## albert

> Btw, I have another question I need advise on. As posted previously, my water temp ranges from 27.3 to 28.2 and I read that it is bad for mosses... I'm thinking of either D.I.Y fan (x2 - by the way, which is the quieter one? The bigger one or smaller?) or purchasing a chiller (I think I need a 1/10HP) Need your advise on which should be a better buy in the long run... to D.I.Y or to get a chiller?


Hi,

If $$$ is not a problem to you, a chiller is definitely better since it can bring your temp to 25 degree and below. A over-powered chiller is always better than under-powered ones. Please do consider the electricial bill you have to bear later as well. 

As for DIY fans, the lowest you can get is ~26 degrees on normal days. I would think a bigger fan (those 12V rating) is better (wider wind area coverage) since you can adjust the speed of the fan by tuning your DC adapter output voltage. I am currently using 4 x 12V DC fans for my 3 footer and is absolutely quiet.

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## grey_fox

Hey albert, 

Thanks for your feedback, I think DIY fans would be sufficient since it can get up to ~26 degrees.  :Smile:  Probably 2 big ones would do for me.

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## StanChung

hi greyfox,

if your current temp is 27-28c, putting in diy fans will do. it should bring it down 2c or more depending % surface evaporation.

chillers are IMO weird for the fish because of the constant temp. something about metabolism...bla bla which i know nothing about.
i plan to get one but i won't turn i on 24/7. saves electricity too. haha...

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