# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna >  ketapang leaves for all blackwater fish?

## Simon

Hi guys, jus wondering.. i read that arrowana keepers use ketapang leave.. have anyone else tried using them for other fishes? peat is inexperience and ketapang can be found along coastal road...

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## ccs

Is it also known as indian almond leaves?

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## Simon

yes

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## akoh

Simon !, some FF collect this leaves (in large qty) and soak them in water for a period of time. The water eventually turned very dark brown in colour. The "extract -mainly Humic Acid" is used as "Dark water effect" or "softening agent". I have tried some sample (given by the Fish Farms) on my "L" Catfishes and they seem okay !. They (FF) have used it on some characin species and they also seem okay ! Check it out ! cheers! [ :Grin: ]

Akoh 
Safe Diving !

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## Simon

thks allen, me thinking of using them for my apisto fry tank

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## lsz

and one thing, you can just leave the leaves in the water for a "natural look" .

nice!

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## jade

Have try for my ST and seems ok for them.

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## skyvan

hi simon

ketapang leaves oso used for keeping fighting fish. infact, any leave oso can lah...anyone here tried tea leaves...

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## lsz

those of you guys who want to produce natural blackwater for use of wild fish/breeding etc purpose esp apistos, discus, altums, South american wilds etc can look at this.

I used this for arowana and find that it is quite good

 Ketapang Tea Bags

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## kelstorm

when i dabble in FW eons ago,.. i used to use tetra blackwater extract and another brand which is black color bottle with gold words.. that is good as well..

btw, LSZ, drift wood do produce some form of coloring in the water right? those 'leaks' good for fishes or not? ani't that considered blackwater???

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## lsz

Kel, the reason why i thought this is good is coz this method had been long tested locally. just new package which is a lot better than the leaves... 

i never wanted to use chemicals or artifical stuff for my fish thats why. No matter what brand is it. 


YEah driftwood leech tannin into the water too. But thats for a short period of time and in a much less efficient package! I realise tannin leech from driftwood has only a marginal effect on ph too. Unless you soak a whole tree root into your tank and your water flooding out [ :Grin: ]

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## kelstorm

ok.. got it.. btw, any tea leaves will do? i drink a lot of tea.. so if u need, just let me know.. i have earl grey, english breakfast, blackcurrent tea.. but i have to drink finish first then the bags i give u.. that is if u need them.. if not, for students like us, we can use it to cure our eyebags.. hahaha..

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## lsz

haha 

but logically i think it may be possible ? 
coz tea leaf is just another kind of leaf but fried.. 

then your water will smell really nice 

try at your own risk hor

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## kelstorm

ouch!!!.. that hurts.. 
i just thought that if the land-dwellers fish nutz here can do with my 'waste' i mean, used tea bags, then give them lor.. coz me dun have any use for it..
but afraid that the water might turn to other flavours..eg. tea!!! and u created a new species.. Tea fish... hahaha

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## budak

ketapang is just the Sea Almond tree that grows on the roadside here, those with large tear-drop shaped leaves. 

You can just collect freshly fallen leaves, clean and dry them. Then put pieces into tanks to soften the water.

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## lsz

thats the point of the tea bags! 

anyone who had used them esp with larger fish will know that the tea leaves will disintegrate and create major problem for filters..

and not very convenient to "brew" tea now and then

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## kelstorm

if that is the case, i seen those fine mesh laundry bags at $1.99 shops.. costing of course..$1.99.. hehehe.. but dun know whether still have or not.. [ :Grin: ]

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## lsz

dont have to go thru the trouble lah...

the ready made "tea bags" are cheap

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## lsz

unless there is a real brand with arowana logo..

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## juggler

The Toh brothers at YHE LFS gave me some dried Ketapang leaves to put in apisto tanks. I tried it in a bare tank and found the pH drop to as low as 6.2 after a few days. Are we supposed to remove the leaves after about 3 days and not soak them inside for long? The apistos seem to adapt quite all right to the acidic condition though.

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## benetay

leave it inside thats what i was told. i too put them inside, u shld see one of my breeding tank condition u will be shock =) total darkness , full of leaves driftwood stones and a lovely pair inside having at lease 80 fry wonderful.

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## mivec1997

Correct me if i'm wrong.
Heard that ketapang leaves produces blackish water rgt?

Bene, 
do u mean that apisto will spawn in blackish water?

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## benetay

brackish water as in water with salt content?

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## mivec1997

er.....dunno leh. 
How abt those in the bottle?

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## CK Yeo

He is refering to the colour of the water = B_L_ACK
b_R_ackish = anything between freshwater and seawater

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## Simon

blackwater solution is to lower the PH and provide yr fishes with some elements found only in blackwater environment, 

brackish water contains a slight percentage of salt

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## mivec1997

so is it good for apisto? 
Do they need it to spawn?[ :Grin: ]

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## kelstorm

is it good to include when the tank is under medication?

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## LiquidFX

The blackwater condition is found naturally as the leaves from overhanging trees drop into the river. This is especially so in the Amazon areas, that's why arrowanas that are from Amazon like the condition so much.

Brackish water is water having salt content. Its different from blackwater.

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## Simon

hahhaa.. i got some ketapang leaves from Toh.. now all my breeding tank has some [ :Grin: ]

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## benetay

hope it helps to induce breeding.

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## juggler

> ----------------
> On 5/4/2002 1:35:22 AM 
> 
> leave it inside thats what i was told. i too put them inside, u shld see one of my breeding tank condition u will be shock =) total darkness , full of leaves driftwood stones and a lovely pair inside having at lease 80 fry wonderful.
> ----------------


Benetay: In the breeding tank, do you use any air pump or filtration?

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## benny

> and one thing, you can just leave the leaves in the water for a "natural look" .
> 
> nice!


I'm actually think if creating an apisto tank using ketapang leaves litter as substrate. Anyone locally has tried that?

From what I heard, this will stink up the water and it will smell reall bad after a few days. Was advised to use commercial black water instead. I thought the leaf litter being a natural biotope will make the fish feel more comfortable.

Cheers,

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## XnSdVd

I've tried covering the substrate in leaves. No worries there. But it was a layer of leaves over 2 inches of lapis.

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## benny

> I've tried covering the substrate in leaves. No worries there. But it was a layer of leaves over 2 inches of lapis.


So did it stink up the whole tank? How often do you have to change water and was removing the decomposing leaves a hassle?

Cheers,

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## Simon

Benny, I tried it with my trifasciata pair the last time and was successful, no foul smell.. even though I didn't change the water for 6mths ;P. but the decomposed leave is a heahache, after awhile, they break up into small bits

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## benny

> I didn't change the water for 6mths ;P. but the decomposed leave is a heahache, after awhile, they break up into small bits


So what do you resolve this problem? Continue to add leaves as the older ones break up into tiny bits?

Cheers,

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## Simon

yup, kept piling up with new leaves, but eventually had to siphon them out  :Smile: . try on a 1 footer first

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## benny

I intend to run a hang on filter for the tank and possibly a sponge filter. Judging from this, I think they will clog easily....ok. back to the drawing board.

Cheers,

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## Johnc

I leave ketapang leaves in all my betta, fries and shrimp tanks. They leave (pardon the pun) the water with a pleasant leafy smell... never had experience of fouling of water. 

IME, the leaves sink to the bottom after a couple of days, so no problem with the rotting leave clogging the filter. If the filter is strong enough to suck up the leaves, it would be too strong for the fries. 

/John

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## celticfish

i use to put them in betta tanks when i was a kid.
i had atree outside my home so i had plenty!!
what i did then was what you wanted to do benny.
except i used the red leaves fresh.
but i don't leave them there till thy kingdom come.
i replaced them every two weeks. 
as johnc said no smell if you keep the water moving.
smell will be there in stangnant water and if you leave them to rot w/o replacing them.

i am currently using them for my blue heckels.
i reckon it should work as an additive for all blackwater fishes.
the acidity and antibacterial properties of the sap help reduce infection on these fishes.
helps tetra mortality rates a lot!

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## XnSdVd

I'm agreeing with johnc. That and the leaves eventually decompose into liquid compounds anyway. What ever remains is essentially the same as goldfish poop. Which is never really a problem for us. Especially if you've got LOTS of snails  :Grin:  

No, no smell.

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## benny

Thanks for all the comments.




> Which is never really a problem for us. Especially if you've got LOTS of snails


So the snails can survive in such low pH and mop up the decomposing leaves?

Cheers,

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## Johnc

> So the snails can survive in such low pH and mop up the decomposing leaves?


Oh, no problem at all! I have snails breeding in literally BLACKwater. I have more problem getting rid of them than keeping them alive.  :Razz:  

But if you are breeding dwarfs, you may want to check if the species know how to deal with snails which poach eggs. 

/John

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## XnSdVd

Trumpet snails seem the best choice, they keep out of sight during the day, and at night they come out looking for food. Though I have no idea where your fish'll lay their eggs.

Any yeah, there's something about living snails that protects them from the acid. Once they're dead their shells dissolve in a few days. So if you can, occasionally remove the larger snails to keep your KH low.

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## Cacatuoides

i have these leaves littering the floor of my 1.5 footer with my pair of rams breeding recently with more than 50 fries.....the ph does drop and gives a good darkish natural tone to the water....so far no signs of decomposing since more than 2 weeks of soaking.....i think it does induce a bit of breeding but still not sure cos my westies haven not breed yet despite so much leaves and dark dark water.....maybe experts can provide some advise??

cheers!

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## pressure

i think ketapang also buffers the water at about 6-6.5, the acidity is caused by the tannic acid and humic acid,...i used it for my aros, very very good :Grin:

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## pressure

> I'm actually think if creating an apisto tank using ketapang leaves litter as substrate. Anyone locally has tried that?
> 
> From what I heard, this will stink up the water and it will smell reall bad after a few days. Was advised to use commercial black water instead. I thought the leaf litter being a natural biotope will make the fish feel more comfortable.
> 
> Cheers,


 i think you can overcome the smelly prob by having some sort of water "movement' , i think the smelly hydrogen sulphide is caused by anaerobic bacteria "eating" up the leaves

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## sage08

IS the ktp leaves good for planted tank as well? I've started putting some into my main tank which is planted and am monitoring the effect.

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## Cacatuoides

i've left some of these leaves in my breeding tank and after quite a while, the leaves breaks down into sort of powdery, making the water abit foggy, should we remove the leaves after a certain period of time?

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## pressure

> i've left some of these leaves in my breeding tank and after quite a while, the leaves breaks down into sort of powdery, making the water abit foggy, should we remove the leaves after a certain period of time?


if you breeding tank is well "biologically" filtered, then no need as the BB will chew it up, if not...better remove ....my 2 cents... :Grin:

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## Goondoo

> IS the ktp leaves good for planted tank as well? I've started putting some into my main tank which is planted and am monitoring the effect.


The will reduce the lights reaching your plants to some extend definitely...

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