# Killies Import > Planted Tanks >  CO2 indicator

## aryanggie

hi folks 

i just bought a new CO2 indicator,previously i didnt use it,i tried to set it like the one said in the box , it works,the indicator become dark green that indinate my water is suifficient of CO2,so i raise my CO2 ,(from 1 bubles to 3 bps).but the problem happens,The indicator didnt make any change,it still dark green,i waiut foe along time but the indicator not show the light green colour(normal co2)......why was it happen?i raise CO2 to 5bps but the indicator still show no change, is the indicator an actually show the ppm CO2 in time ,or just a one time used tools?

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## shortman

I not so sure how good these CO2 indicator are and can it measure in PPM.

For the one I use long long time back it said it turn from blue to green some work the other way. Invert the container and fill it with tank water then drop 2-3 drop of the liquid into the container then stick it to the glass wall and wait for overnight. It turn blue to green and depend on the level of CO2 but took a long time to change color.

I don't find it useful so I keep it aside.

Many go without using it, a timer which cost around SGD 20 is much better than that CO2 indicator. Set it on at 0900 and off at 1700.

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## aryanggie

hehe,so the tools is useless?hihi,,,,,,,.....i just waste my money for sin$10 , it cost so expensive to me,.....hehem....the timer here at indo only cost at 5$...sometimes many sold it at 4$,.....hehe,cheap isnt it?.......hix2 so the CO2 indicator is useless.yah.it took so long before i got the actual info bout the Co2......

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## whuntley

In most waters, the primary buffer is just carbonate/bicarbonate.

If you don't tinker a lot with water chemistry, the amount of actual dissolved CO2 can be determined with two very simple tests.

The pH depends on how strong the buffering (alkalinity) is, so a simple KH measurement, and an accurate pH reading, can be a good measure of CO2 level.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html is a really easy-to-use chart. Find your KH along the bottom and go straight up to find the pH your tank measures. Look straight to the left to read ppm of CO2. Once you have tested against your bubble rate, you may not need to do it very often.

There is a non-graphical table a bit farther down the page, but it is in ascii such that I cannot copy it to here, where letter spacing isn't uniform.

Borrow a pH meter to do the test, for accurate pH is the key. [Read the notes below the chart.] The crummy titration tests they sell for swimming pools and at the LFS are not precise enough for decent accuracy. You need precision to within 0.1 or better.

Bubble rate is totally meaningless until you have done this simple 2-test procedure. KH is very different depending on where in town you live, and the rate that the CO2 dissolves depends on how you are injecting it in your particular tank and reactor. Once you know how much CO2 your water holds at a couple of given bubble rates, you can usually just count bubbles to get your CO2 concentration.

Wright

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## aryanggie

oww,,so to measure CO2 just measure the PH and the KH,
mmmm,so some stupid answer again,
how i measure my PH and KH,is there any tools to check it(without chemically water,just a device that measure the PH and KH(for a long term use) or i have to buy a one timed used tools?)

mmm,is the PH and KH are stabil .?(for a long time) or its very fragile(sometimes changed ,??)


regrds

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## FC

aryanggie (may I know you name, please),

You are using so called permanent CO2 indicator. You need another kit before you can use it, thatis, KH test kit.

It is not easy to use, though convenience for monitoring.

Typically, CO2 indicator require the water to be maintained (faithfully) at 4~5 degree KH. So, you need to do these:
1) get the water up to 4 degree KH
2) wait for 1~2 days for the KH to stable and at 4 degree (adjust if required)
3) drip the tank water into the indicator and then add solution (normally 1 or 2 drops). Do these with care.

It will take about 1/2 hour for the indicator to response to any change in the water. Patient is needed - change the CO2 injection rate slowly. You need about 3 days to get everything right.

Such test kit is only good for new setup where you want to tune the CO2 well. Once you get it, you can throw it away because it is troublesome to maintain (change the liquid every month and maintain KH).

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## TyroneGenade

Go see her for an easy to use chart to determine free CO2 based on KH and pH. You will have to sub to the forum though to see it.

A simple rule of thumb is the softer the water the more free CO2 there will be. Without carbonate bicarbonate is a shitty buffer and CO2 (H2CO3) eats into without restraint and the following equilibrium tilts to the left:

tt4n

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## fkkow

Hi...

I'm new here and just started this hobby 4 months back... why so long? Initial budget is too huge!! Mr. Loh thank you for the talk u gave us in KL in Pet Family.... It is very interesting. 

BTW i'm the guy sitting the very front and asking heaps of questions...

I had the same problem here... my indicator is not working well... and the KH indicator of sera shows KH of 0??? one drop of solution and it's yellow straight... I had add rock.. but still as usual... Previous no such problem until my tank crack and i have to resilicone the tank... everthing maintains except for the substrate brand that i change... So how to bring up the KH without using the KH Plus solution???

Thanks....

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## FC

Hi fkkow (may I know your name?),

KH tester is often very reliable and the shelve life is long. Yes, your KH is zero. There is 2 way to increase KH safely:
1) add coral chips into filter media (use only half fistful, last for months) - prefered method for planted tank
2) add baking soda to the water - I do not like this method

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## timebomb

> BTW i'm the guy sitting the very front and asking heaps of questions...


Oh yes, I remember you. You gave me a hard time with your questions  :Laughing: . But seriously, I don't have all the answers but I tried to be honest with my replies. In other words, I say "I don't know" when I don't know. 

Freddy who's technically very good with planted tanks, taught me to use coral chips to raise the Kh of the water. I add a handful of it to my external cannister filter and after a few days, the Kh went up to 4. Previously, it was zero. It's kind of hard to get an accurate reading from the test kit if the Kh is close to zero or at zero. Coral chips take a while before it raises the Kh. If you want instant results, add baking soda which is easily available in provision shops. I found out recently when I was with my wife at a store that specialises in confectionary items, that baking soda there is sold in much bigger bottles and at lower prices.

Loh K L

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## wcknight

I want to ask a stupid question, most of the folks here are killie freaks (as I hope to be some day soon). How much impact does this Co2 injection have on your killies ? Does adding the plant nutrients and fooling with the KH affect your fish adversely ?

I've seen in this forum that CO2 can make the PH suddenly drop if not properly buffered and monitored.

I'm about to get my toes wet with my first attempt at hatching killies, and have avoided CO2 use up to now (with mixed results, so I am seriously considering using CO2 on a limited basis soon, at least in my other tanks). SHould I avoid CO2 use in my killie tanks ? I don't want to have to constantly monitor my PH and KH and CO2 levels. Partial water changes, feeding, and water treatment on a minimal basis I can handle. Changing water conditions on the fly seems to be a risky business when dealing with live specimens that may or may not tolerate such an ordeal.

Thanks, Wes

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## stormhawk

With killies a sudden change in water chemistry can be lethal to them. I have only one single male Simp. constanciae in my planted tank and its doing fine. I guess the water's pretty stable now. All along I've lost almost all the killies I tried to keep in there.

As for killie tanks, if they're small and meant for breeding, keep CO2 out of the equation if possible. You only need java moss and java fern in these tanks to provide some form of cover.  :Wink:

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## FC

Wes,

My planted tank has killies in it and they are doing very fine. IMO, CO2 will not hurt killies since they can live in acidic environment, so long that the PH does not fluctuate wildly. That is, the injection rate (bps) and the difusing method should be properly tuned/selected.

As for fertilizer, if dosed correctly, will not have a problem here too. The dosage is very small in planted, runnning in less than 20ppm for macros and less than 0.5ppm for micros. The fertilizers added are merely to fill the used nutrients and balance them.

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## stormhawk

Oh yes I wasn't too clear in my explanation in my previous post.

As Freddy has pointed out, as long as the pH does not fluctuate wildly in a short span of time the fish will remain happy. I would still however advocate keeping CO2 away from dedicated breeding tanks unless necessary. Keeps the fish safe from a sudden pH swing.  :Wink:

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## whuntley

I have never seen a reaction from a killifish due to a sudden pH swing. I routinely have subjected my fish to sudden changes of 2 or more points, and Col Scheel, in his Atlas, says 3 points show no adverse effects.

Can you feel the pH when you go swimming or take a shower? Well, neither can the fish.

What can the fish feel? 

If the pH goes suddenly upward, and there is a lot of ammonium present, it can turn to ammonia and burn the hell out of gills and skin. The percent as ammonia can go from 0.5% at a pH of 7 to 36% at a pH of 9. Babies are stunted at levels as low as 5-8 ppb! At 36% nearly all fish die if there is any measurable ammonium at all.

If the pH is tied to dissolved solids, a large pH difference may mean a large difference in total dissolved solids (tds), and sudden change in that can cause gill cells to burst as the cell-wall osmosis regulatory system is too slow to adjust and keep low tds water from diluting the body fluids. This is called osmotic shock, and is more common when going from harder (high tds or salinity) water to softer water. I try to keep sudden changes below a factor of 2, which most fish seem to tolerate OK.

Low pH can interfere with nitrite conversion to nitrates and lead to "Brown Blood" disease, but it is rarely a fast transition problem. It is more a "pH Crash" situation when water changes are missed and the water quality degrades. Low pH can lead to heavy-metal poisoning, too, as lead and copper are more soluble then. Don't leave lead anchors on your plants!

With pH dependent chemistry like this, it is easy to see where the pH mythology got started. We have very cheap GH kits, tds meters and such, available now, so there is no need for us to be controlling and/or measuring the wrong thing.

IMHO, pH shock, per se, is pure myth.

Wright

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## fkkow

Hi Mr. Freddy, Mr. Loh and others...

Thank u for the much awaited reply. I'm thought of the same thing before but just dunno will it work, if yes, how much to put and so on... Thanks again as most question is answered. 

Mr. Freddy, BTW, I'm Kow (that's my surname) n I'm your neighbour (Malaysia...) 

What if i maintain the condition of my aquarium this way (very low KH)? Other than the poor pH buffering, what other effects are there? 

Mr. Loh hope to catch u if i'm in Singapore. Just kinda want to know more of killies... Based on ur recommendation of the Brine Shrimp, i got a little bottle of the eggs in a small, dark, deserted corner of an aquarium shop. Pay the boss, took it back and incubated it... after 30hours nothing come out... Arghhh... must be dormant for some time la... Any thing to save it?

Any suggestion of particular product of this (Brine Shrimp eggs) available locally in Malaysia (other than getting it from the Tiger Prawn farms)... 

TQ...

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## whuntley

> ...
> 
> What if i maintain the condition of my aquarium this way (very low KH)? Other than the poor pH buffering, what other effects are there?


The low KH is often seen with a low GH, too. Electrolyte imbalance is often a problem in very soft water. You can raise GH and KH with some crushed coral in a filter bag, or raise GH alone by dosing a little Seachem "Equilibrium." It will not raise KH, but it allows you to then safely add some baking soda to get the buffering (KH) back up if you want.

I prefer the Seachem products because they tell me how much of the key ingredients it contains. Some, like "RO Right" are sold like pure "snake oil" and you have absolutely no idea what is in your water.

The low electrolytes thing will only become a problem, usually, if you have to add some salt as a medication or preventative for Ich or Velvet. Get some of the "No Salt" stuff in the grocery, sold for folks on a low sodium diet. Adding a bit of that (maybe 5%-10% of total added salt) to raise the potassium level can prevent sodium poisoning from the regular salt.

Wright

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## stormhawk

Hi Kow, the tiger prawn farms actually sell BBS eggs? 

As for the brine shrimp eggs you have, I believe there's no way to save it. It would be a good attempt to try and decapsulate the eggs. That's the only way to get some good stuff at least from a bunch of probably dead eggs.

I don't live in Malaysia so I don't know of any sources. Real sorry there. Perhaps Dominic and the rest of the fellas up north can help you out. Good luck.  :Wink:

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## wcknight

Thanks for all the responses

On a semi-related side note, my Java ferns are fading fast. Leaves are deteriorating turning brown/black and withering away. I've moved them into several lighting condition, ranging from low light (one 20 watt tube in a 30 inch tank) to high intensity (3 florescent tubes for same size tank). 

I've been using Florish and another plant fertilizer with my water changes (10 to 20% weekly), and I've added small amounts of Epson's salts for the magnesium. 

There are relatively very few fish in the tanks, so the water quality should be good. The water from the tap is usually around 7.2 or 7.5 PH, usually very soft. There is no CO2 infusion in any of the tanks. Other plants seem to be thriving, corkscrew val is doing very well, java moss is doing great, lewidgia (green and red) is only holding its own, bottom leaves are falling off as mentioned in another plant message. 

I'm thinking the calcium level and relatiively soft water is part of the problem. There is no buffering agent (such as crushed coral). I plan on raising Nothos so I'm shooting to maintain an alkaline hard water condition.

I will probably put in a DIY CO2 system for one of my tanks, but will keep it out of the killie tanks for now. Any other suggestions,
thanks, Wes

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## wcknight

Also when doing water changes I add about a teaspoon of salt per two gallons of water. I saw in another post that salt may be toxic to fish or plants if some of the other elements are not present in sufficient quantity. If that is the case maybe moving the ferns to a salt free tank would revive them.

Wes

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## confusekid

> Hi fkkow (may I know your name?),
> 
> KH tester is often very reliable and the shelve life is long. Yes, your KH is zero. There is 2 way to increase KH safely:
> 1) add coral chips into filter media (use only half fistful, last for months) - prefered method for planted tank
> 2) add baking soda to the water - I do not like this method


Hi Freedy,
Can you explain why you don't like to use baking soda to raise the KH?? I know that both methods work(used both before) but using coral chip will be hard to control the final KH of the water, that's why i am using baking soda now.

Regards,
Jack

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## FC

Jack, Kow and Wes, welcome to Planted Tanks Forum!

Jack,
Like Wright explained, the use of coral chips provides both GH (in the form of Ca) and KH. This is particularly benificial for hobbyist living with very soft water.

You can contain the unduly rise of GH/KH by placing smaller coral qty in the filter media. For my 4x2x2 footer and eheim 2028, I use half-fistful which would faithfully give me equilibrium of 3~4 degree KH and 4~6 degree GH readings.

The reason that I do not like baking soda is because in long term use and couple with infrequent water change (I hardly change water), the sodium concentration will built up which plant does not consume. Besides, I was bored of the routine of adding the soda after water change - that half fistful of coral chips does the job automatically and last for months.

Kow,
KH is not a good way to buffer PH (as many thought) under CO2 injected environment. The key is to control the CO2 injection (the source of PH influence) method (like using solenoid) instead.
KH is required mainly for:
1) measurement of CO2 (require KH vs PH readings) purpose.
2) to raise the PH to suit certain fishes' habitat.

Wes,
Java Fern does well in both highlight and lowlight, the difference is the colour of the leafs are lighter/nicer under highlight. I am not good in fern but it seems to favour cool water (23~26 degree celcius).

Wright,
I suppose Cu is below acid level (I forgot the term) which implies it will not be impaired/dissolve under carbonate acid water.

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## timebomb

> Pay the boss, took it back and incubated it... after 30hours nothing come out... Arghhh... must be dormant for some time la... Any thing to save it?


Kow, this happens often because the brine shrimp eggs sold in fish shops are not kept in proper conditions. If what you bought has been on a shelf for many months, chances are the eggs are spoiled. You can try what Jianyang said about decapsulating but frankly, I don't think it will work with dead eggs.

The best way for you to find good quality brine shrimp eggs would be to look for the Discus breeders living around your area. Discus breeders, like Killifish breeders buy their brine shrimp eggs in cans. You don't need a can so offer to buy just a small container from them.

Loh K L

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## whuntley

> Wright,
> I suppose Cu is below acid level (I forgot the term) which implies it will not be impaired/dissolve under carbonate acid water.


Heavy metals tend to be more soluble as the pH drops below 7. There may be minimal risk at 6.5, but I would be inclined to be suspicious of anything below 6 if metal is in contact with the tank water.

The metal only cares about the hydrogen ion concentration and it doesn't matter if it comes from injected CO2 or vinegar. That is, solubility increases strongly with lower pH regardless of what caused the pH to drop.

The basic moral to the story is: "Keep any metal except aluminum, titanium and stainless steel out of contact with the water if your pH is below neutral (7). Lead plant anchors seem to do the most damage.

Wright

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