# Killies Import > Non-Killie Segment >  My spawing Otocinclus affinis (perhaps O. vittatus?)

## RonWill

Folks,
I'm extremely pleased that the spawning of _Otocinclus affinis_ has finally become a reality for me. It's been a much awaited event and after trying for 6 years, feel very privileged to capture the spawning sequence in images as well as AVI Video format.


Courtship sounds like a scene from a 'R' movie, where the male actually caress the entire length of the female's body  :Twisted Evil:  

Before every 'drop', the pair cleans the deposit-spot very thoroughly.


In typical _Corydoras_ 'T-position', the male arches up while the female nuzzles at his organ (sheesh... how else can I describe this?  :Laughing:  )


A blurry shot of 3 freshly deposited eggs.


If all things go well, I *want* to shoot pics of newly hatched Oto fry and decided to snip off the fern for closer observation.


The cory hatchery worked well and since Otos's natural habitat is mostly swift streams, the constant flow of highly oxygenated water should do the developing eggs good.

*pH test strip*

pH reading was about 6.5 and TDS at 102ppm (78ppm directly from mains)

We're smack in the middle of the Monsoon season and typically, it's the coolest time of the year (the rest of it being hot, hotter and bluddy hot!)

If cool water is the key to successful spawnings, I'll bite the bullet and invest in a DIY chiller, or move Bishop, CA and become Wright's neighbour!  :Laughing:  

There were many spawning runs, mostly on the underside of meticulously cleaned java fern leaves. Here's another sequence.
   

The .avi files is even more interesting to watch but I'll upload it to our forum only after it's 'protected' (watermark or whatever).

Stay tuned folks.

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## timebomb

Congratulations, Ronnie. You're the first hobbyist I know whose Otos are breeding in his tanks. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of planted tank hobbyists who keep this fish in their tanks and I've often wondered why we don't hear of anyone breeding Otos. 

As I've said once, you're one superb fish breeder. 

Loh K L

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## PeterGwee

Wow! You sure have the touch for spawning things Ron.  :Laughing:  Great work...Temperature I feel does play a part along with good food.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

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## RonWill

Thanks for the thumbs up, Kwek Leong. I can only think of 3 good reasons why Oto spawning is rare or accidental.

Firstly, these Otos are in a tank of their own with Cherry shrimps, in a *refugium*-like setup. Lots of plants, no gravel and good cool water from the Henri filters.

I've also been tinkering with their diet, a good varied diet of mostly live foods, plankton and spirulina tabs and my home-made paste. Most 'planted tank hobbyists' are plants first, fishes second, and in order to maintain certain water parameters optimized for plants, the fishes are often grossly undernourished.

Finally, the reading from the digi thermos is no hoax. It is indeed very cool along the corridor, breezy too, and together with the Henri filters, my tank has never been this cool. Like I said, if cold water is the key, I *want* a chiller!

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## RonWill

Peter, I love breeding but can't bring myself to work on a 4th kid!  :Laughing:  

You're right about the temp tho. It isn't just Otos spawning... the _corydoras_ and my other killies are 'making whoopie' like there's no tomorrow!

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## keehoe

Ron, you ever consider taking up politic? Singapore government need your service as they need more Singaporean. Errrr no avi or any recoding please.

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## RonWill

> Ron, you ever consider taking up politic? Singapore government need your service as they need more Singaporean


I never fail to love shoving my thumb up 'where the sun don't shine' whenever political subjects are brought up but if public funds cannot keep those scholars ticking their think-tank, then that's good money going down the drain.

If they need more Singaporeans, let the 'smarter upper level' earn their keep or they can quit driving good people out.

Top brasses are recommending 5-day week despite economic forecast not being rosy, nor have super-scale salaries been appropriately adjusted (since their pay are 'in line' with economic development and IIRC, averaged from 5 top-paying private sectors).

When banks, local broadcast stations have to merge, when goverment housing sectors and national airline have to retrench, the upperity clout can screw themselves silly as far as I'm concern, . It doesn't make a difference as at the end of the day, most of us are getting short changed anyway.

Kee Hoe, *one teeny itsy bitsy advice*. Never bring up or suggest polly talk with me (even if it's a joke). Don't like it, never will. No thank you, so let's drop it like a dead cow.

FWIW, waiting for Oto fry to appear is infinitely more exciting.

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## Piscesgirl

Congratulations on the Otto fry!  :Smile:

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## RonWill

> Congratulations on the Otto fry!


Deborah, I suspect you've confused the *cory fry* for otos but well wishes gladly accepted anyway :wink: 

Folks,
This is gonna be a *Killies.com exclusive*. I've not seen anything like this on the Net yet, ie. pictures of newly hatched _Otocinclus_ fry still attached to the leaf, like a cocoon. Unfortunately, they are non-clickable... it's the best I can do.

 


The minimal focusing distance was not close enough and I cheated with a magnifier pressed firmly against the camera's lens. That reduced the distance but clearly, the resolution could be better. I also didn't like the fact that the metal rim of the magnifying lens, casted a nasty shadow.

I'm puzzled that I can find only one fry when there were supposed to be three. It could be that these have hatched, dislodged themselves from the deposit site and are now entangled at the filter pad of the hatchery. Hopefully, they will wriggle their way out later for more photo shoot.

The fry is small, about 2mm, with obvious egg sac. At this stage, they are extremely venerable, that a scavenging shrimp can make a quick snack out of it.

I inspected the spawning tank and see a few more dangling fry but decided not to remove any. The only inhabitants in this tank are otos and cherry shrimps. Hopefully, there's sufficient refuge and first-foods for the tiny ones until they are stable enough to be transferred.

Thinking aloud, I now understand why accidental oto spawns are rarely reported. We can't readily see them and at birth, predation must be very high.

I so wanted to get closer images but limited by the capability of the digital camera, there's not much I can do. Damn... think I'm gonna get me a trinocular microscope or a used objective lens off ebay  :Evil:

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## nonamethefish

Oh wow! Where are the eyes?

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## hobbit6003

Hi Ron,

That's fast, hatching in 48 hrs!

Well, it'll be interesting to see what would be the 1st food for them, I wonder if BBS can be fed to them, as they seemed quite small.

Like I told you, the closest I've gotten to an otto spawn, is to find 2 little ottos in my 4 fter when I tore them down last year, so you can claim to have been the official 1st spawning of these cute fishes! 

What can I say, spawning fishes seems Otto-matic for you, haha!

And I had the previlege to have the premierre viewing of the otto spawning video clip, thanks!!!  :Very Happy:  

Cheers,

Kenny

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## Green Baron

Ronnie,
You are one super breeder !  :Beer Time:  However, considering the amount of time, care, $ and love you invested into them, I am not surprised at all ;-)

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## ruyle

Well, the amount of time, care, $, doesn't always equal success, so I think
it's partly due to Ronnie's abilities! Well done, Ronnie!  :Cool:

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## Piscesgirl

Congrats on the Otto fry! See I wasn't confused, I was just psychic! (clairvoyent)! hehe :P Now, if only I could 'see' those lotto numbers....

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## timebomb

Ronnie,

There's a chance some fish magazine may ask you to write an article on how you bred the Otos. Keep the original pictures somewhere safe. 

The fry are cute and look like tiny tadpoles. I've always thought Otos are vegetarians as I have never seen them rushing for the food like SAEs do. 

By the way, I think I should let you have my pair of Empire Gudgeons. There's no sign of eggs although the male showed its spawning colours several times. You want them?

Loh K L

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## RonWill

Thanks all for the compliments. I've not been feeling well and resting away from the PC. Many apologies to those who were eagerly waiting for updates.

Right now, I feel like a derailled train but let's see what I can cover post-by-post.

Joseph ('nonamethefish'),
The fry are really tiny and translucent. Viewing it under a magnifier doesn't throw out alot of details either, nor can I can see those eyes. [time to get a *real* scope! Anyone want to buy an *Olympus Auto bellow* for macro work?]

Kenny,
From my online research, incubation is at least 3 days. How mine hatches in 24 is puzzling and I'll work on the video clip shortly (unless someone else offer to help with the editing)

Gan & Bill,
The best I can do is provide what I think is best; security, diet and a love-nest. My abilities don't mean a hoot if the breeders "don't like it".

Kwek Leong,
I uploaded many images for online storage and in CDR, even before I posted the thread, so there's no need to worry about safekeeping at my end. Thanks.

It's flattering, to even imagine, that the Otos' spawning episode will get published in a fish mag. I have little technical details to offer, am a lousy photographer and a worse writer. I'm curious what prompted you to say that?

For Empire Gudgeons (_Hypseleotris compressa_), I have a 3-inch pair that's well conditioned, but not doing a thing. They're on 'loan', both very plumb and from what I researched on, raising 'em fry will be hell. _Mucho gracias_ for the Gudgeon offer but I have my hands (and tanks) full at the moment.

Folks, ok ok... I hear you (where's the darn updates!)

First I must say that after I've calmed from the excitment of witnessing a hatched Oto fry, it dawned on me what to feed the little fellas. I can whip up a batch of spirulina/algae-based paste, the closest diet I can think of, even though it didn't do much good to a brood of whiptail fry*** in my previous home.

The single clinging fry posted earlier finally broke free from the deposit site, as did others in the main breeding tank, but I'm afraid that the little fella didn't make it.  :Sad:  


It's unclear what happened but I'll do a partial siphon from the main tank for any mobile fry. More updates when my brain catches up with the rest of my body.


*** 
*Rineloricaria parva, The Whiptail Catfish by Helen Burns*
*Whiptail catfish by Mike Edwardes*
*Reclassification to Hemiloricaria parva*

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## shortman

> And I had the previlege to have the premierre viewing of the otto spawning video clip, thanks!!!


Me just watch the film in a little room from the reflection I can see a clear image of Mr Ronwill peeking at them.  :Opps:  

So now the difficult part is how to edit the video without those reflection. 
hehe.  :LOL:   :LOL:

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## TyroneGenade

> The single clinging fry posted earlier finally broke free from the deposit site, as did others in the main breeding tank, but I'm afraid that the little fella didn't make it.


He seems to of still had quite a sizable yolk sack. Maybe he broke free prematurely? A problem with temperature maybe?

Feeding the fry, you can try some real dirty plant leaves or bits of algae scraped from the side of a tank. 

Hope you deliver some good news soon about the rest of the fry!

tt4n

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## Piscesgirl

Sorry to hear you have not been feeling well -- hope that you feel better soon!

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## hobbit6003

> Kenny,
> From my online research, incubation is at least 3 days. How mine hatches in 24 is puzzling and I'll work on the video clip shortly (unless someone else offer to help with the editing)


Hi Ron,

Hmm... water chemistry perhaps? Well, I think it is always good to standby some test kits, just so that when the fish spawn again, we can then do some testing of the water and have an idea what made them tick, and what's probably wrong. 

I wonder if the water softness or acidity has anything to do with this premature hatching? We only tested TDS that day and it read aprrox. at 100.

I hope that you do find some surviving ones in there, but in the meantime, keep on trying!


Cheers,

Kenny

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## RonWill

> He seems to of still had quite a sizable yolk sack. Maybe he broke free prematurely? A problem with temperature maybe?


Tyrone, I don't think it's temperature related as the hatching water was taken from the main system (which deliver water to the hatchery). It might be a question of oxygen since the single fry was isolated to a plastic petri-dish for observation.




> Hope you deliver some good news soon about the rest of the fry!


 Knock and the door shall be opened. Ask and you will receive... (oops! wrong sermon!  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  )

Indeed I have good news! Kho was at my place yesterday and not only did he view the video clip, he saw at least 4 healthy Oto fry clinging to the tank walls and foraging amongst the detritus and mulm.

The following image was taken yesterday, when I siphoned 2 little fellas for closeup shots.


As for food, they seems to be doing ok on my concocted mess :wink:

Deborah, thanks for the well wishes. I'm back on track, well... kinda, but will post more and better pics (I hope) when this thingie arrive.

 A Bausch & Lomb fixed brightfield 100X microscope

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## RonWill

> Well, I think it is always good to standby some test kits, just so that when the fish spawn again, we can then do some testing of the water and have an idea what made them tick, and what's probably wrong


 Kenny, all I'm able to account for presently are; pH, temp and TDS, which reads 6.5, 24.5 ºC and 102ppm respectively.

I have 'expired' kits in the toy box to test for Nitrate, Phosphate and others which I can't recall off hand, but not willing to repurchase them due to budget constraints (acquiring 2 more multi-tier setups soon).

Perhaps others will have a better idea of what happened, although I won't rule out premature hatching.

BTW, I'm getting desperate to achieve better macro pictures (no thanks to Benny's _Fp GAR_ 'Lokoja' hatching pictures at the other forum :wink: ). Click *here* to see some off-beat stuffs I was using  :Shocked:  (There was one more toy in my armament that Kho felt was not 'safe' for others to view :wink: )

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## RonWill

Folks,
Having experienced Cherry shrimplets being sucked down the overflow pipe, I diy'ed another 'hatchery' that now functions as a prefilter.

Henri without filter tray (Oct 17th '04)


Henri with extended filter tray (Dec 13th '04)


My gut feelings were spot on. Noticed a few Oto fry in the 'prefilter' and here's a top view.


The harvest at 4mm, now transferred to another grow-out container.
 Together with 2 little shrimplets

*Otocinclus album*

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## Piscesgirl

They are co cute!!!

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## stormhawk

Ron, Otocinclus ID in the works. Will inform once I get a proper confirmation. :wink:

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## FC

Ron,

Congratulation! I always like ottos as they are my best crews in planted tank.

Yes, there is potential for your works to be published on fish magazine. *Tyrone*, what do you think? I saw your article on Nov04 (?) issue.

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## TyroneGenade

I think I have already mailed Ron telling him to get in touch with an editor... I generally point towards the Editor of Tropical World Magazine but I'm sure you are talking about the _T. vittatus_ article in FAMA. I've had that bit laying about in my PC folders for years... finally found someone who thought it was worthy of being published (possibly as a last resort)! 

As regards my writing, everytime I reread my work I find another mistake or some other inperfection... as consequence I never read anything of mine once it goes to print. I can't imagine what literary horrors you found in that article!

regards

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## stormhawk

Adult fish in pictures are most probably an _O. hoppei_. That said, the person who IDed it has said that he is only 60% sure. Otocinclus species are hard to identify just on the basis of colouration and pattern.

A sharper cleaner picture would do wonders in many ways. An underside shot of the belly region of one the adults would also help.

I had a _Parotocinclus_ species with me and was undecided whether it was a _P. spilosoma_ or _P. haroldoi_. Both have a similar colour pattern. A picture of an undershot of the belly region proved that it was a spilosoma. Something to do with the presence of a fully plated abdomen or partially plated abdomen.

Usually the answers to a proper identification lie in the description papers themselves. Sometimes they do a revision of a genus and all the identification keys are mentioned on how to distinguish the species from each other.

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## nonamethefish

Any updates? How fast are they developing?

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## RonWill

As much as I would have hoped to bring good news, I'm afraid there won't be any updates, at least for this brood.

Joseph, it's been a tough ride trying to care for these Oto fry since I'm unfamiliar with their care and dietary requirement.

I separated the initial dozen into 6 fry per aerated grow-out trays. Things I've tried;
Tray with an abundance of various algae.
Vegetable and spirulina-based blended paste.
Assorted live foods.

Sadly, the fry don't stay where the food is and none of them survived past the first week.

To date, I've yet to find any 'flushed' fry down the overflow pipe or spot any in the breeding tank.

The age old proverb states that "failure is the stepping stone to success", so I'll persist. Hopefully, there's more to tell the next time.

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## FC

Ronnie,

You had done well. At least, the ottos are confident enough to it give a try (reproduction) on your tank and the environment you setup.

Sometimes I wonder, will the fries survive and grow without any intervention by letting them stay where they were born.

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## TyroneGenade

> Sadly, the fry don't stay where the food is and none of them survived past the first week.


Where do they go?

A read one account for _Ancistrus_ where old Amazon Sword plants with algae covered leaves were put with the brood and they would consume the algae on the leaves.

Hope you get another spawn soon!

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## RonWill

Freddy,
I'm quite sure that if the fry are left in a well established tank, their chances of survival, or the number of survivors, is much better than what I can offer. Often, it's a case of "less is more"*, like my 'neglected' _Corydoras similis_ and there's about 30 fry of assorted sizes.
* less intervention, that is.

Meanwhile, I working on how to prevent fry getting sucked into the overflow downpipe.




> Where do they go?


To the big 'fry-care centre in the sky', I guess.




> A read one account for _Ancistrus_ where old Amazon Sword plants with algae covered leaves were put with the brood and they would consume the algae on the leaves


 Tyrone, beside an algae-coated container, there's also a small piece of driftwood with ferns and moss.

If Oto fry are herbivorous, that, together with my spirulina/vege paste would have sufficed... but it wasn't.

Kenny told me that these fry could be omnivorous since adult Otos are known to feed on tubifex and frozen bloodworm (mine does) and if that was the case, why didn't they feed on the microworms and chopped tubifex?

My observation was that the fry spent most of their time along the container wall and if they were feeding off the algae, then I'm very puzzled with zero survivor in both raising trays.

BTW, Tyrone, I did receive your note about submitting an Oto-breeding article but IMHO, it wouldn't be worth a hoot if I couldn't raise a brood. Next time perhaps.

Nonn, instead of a breeding article, let me see if a 'observation report' is worthy of a contribution.

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## whuntley

> If Oto fry are herbivorous, that, together with my spirulina/vege paste would have sufficed... but it wasn't.
> 
> snip...
> 
> My observation was that the fry spent most of their time along the container wall and if they were feeding off the algae, then I'm very puzzled with zero survivor in both raising trays.


"Feeding off algae" can be a deceptive process. The algae layer is often the home to infusoria of all kinds. Millions of "Chinese Algae Eaters" (_Gyrinocheilus aymonieri_) are sold to poor innocent US aquarists with algae problems. The young seem to vigorously graze on algae, when they are actually just sucking out the live foods hiding therein. They eat little algae. They are nearly pure carnivores, and deserve their more accurate name of "Asiatic Scale Suckers."  :Very Happy:  [I usually just use the initials.]

Otos live mostly in swift waters. Could the young need something associated with strong currents? They also come from very soft waters, which could make them sensitive to some trace element being missing, even if only needed in tiny amounts. Pupfish need boron, for example. A drop or two of general plant trace mix, like Tropica Master Grow, might provide something totally absent in your local water. IDK.

Wright

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## nonamethefish

Hopefully you can get them to spawn again. Were the otto fry unwilling to move to get food? I've heard that is a problem with whiptail catfish fry so they have to be literally surrounded by food-forgot the actual technique for doing so.

LOL Wright-but wouldn't the lower level infusoria be considered "plants"?

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## whuntley

> LOL Wright-but wouldn't the lower level infusoria be considered "plants"?


Naah. Some folks lump _Euglena_ or similar green-water genera into infusoria. They are not-plant and not-animal, but a class of their own between the two. They are actively-swimming flagellates, tho.

AFAIK, they don't live in the fuzz on the glass, like rotifers and similar micro-animals do.

Wright

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## Nonn

They will do it again Ron! I think leaving them in a well established tank might give them more chance, though. Sometimes, we, killi people, tend to be under estimate all other fish parental care since we are too much into killi which do nothing for their offspring. 

 :Very Happy:

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## RonWill

Hey folks, guess what I found in the Henri *pre-filter box*?  :Wink:  


This time, I'm returning the fry back into the spawning tank and see any of them survive to juvenile stage. Interesting to note that it was exactly 2 months ago when I had otos fry.

Anyway, output to the Henri filter was reduced and that ought to minimize fry getting sucked into the overflow pipe. Crossing my fingers...

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## Piscesgirl

:Shocked:   :Shocked:   :Shocked:  They're soooo cute! I hope they do well for you this time.

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## livionakano

Wow! This pre filter seems to be almost a hatchery box!
I wish you good luck with your new babies!
I love the Ottos ! 
I hope that someday this breeding will be so usual as some kinds of Corys breeding! Exclusively collected fishes always have the chance to cause some kind of trouble to their environment at their natural habitat, as many times this is done without any care to their original population.

Congratulations!

Livio

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## mor b

Amazing. there is one guy here in my country that is breeding some species of catfish - but this is the first time i c pictures.

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## stormhawk

Ron, a short reminder. The species that spawned was tentatively identified as _Otocinclus hoppei_, not affinis.

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## chicknb

Hi all:

I catched an otto fry last december (sorry for being that late but I am a newbie and just saw this post...). At that time I had a planted tank (60 L) with 3 ottos and, if I remember correctly, some red phantom tetras. My tank was about to be dismantled since I was leaving for 5 months to the US and when I was taking it apart I saw the small otto (about 4-5 mm) atached to the aquarium glass. I had some algae growing on the glass, my pH was 6.5-6-7, temp. 25-26ºC and changed water weekly (30%). I have some pictures at home and if any of you are interested I may try to post them here. They had been with me for about 8 months before spawning and I never saw an egg like those attached to the leaves. I have been trying to get some ottos but so far none has shown in my LFS.

About the species that I had, no idea but may post a picture to see if you are able to ID them.

REgards,

Tony

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## RonWill

Hi Tony,
Welcome to the forum and yes, please do hotlink images of your oto fry when you're able.

Not every image hosting web site will allow hotlinking but personally, Photobucket.com does a pretty good job. (Do remember to resize the images so it doesn't take forever for the dial-upper member to download)

Most of us in this forum are hobbyists and here to share what we learnt, experienced or attempted experiments. It doesn't matter if we fail, for the next person might understand where we went wrong, discuss the problems and then move on to try other methods, so that we can all achieve better results in future trials.

Knowing everything doesn't make a superior person if it's him alone who has the knowledge and not inclined to share.

That said, I may not be the right chap to ID your otocinclus species but it's interesting to note that you have pretty cool temps in your tank... chiller perhaps? The pH range suggest that the tank is CO² fertilized, no?

I'm sure we'll all be glad to learn from your observation and experience. Hope you enjoy the visit while you're here.

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## chicknb

Ronnie, thank you for your comments. I am attaching a picture of the otto species I had as well as a couple of pictures of the otto fry

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## stormhawk

Nice pics Tony and it seems you have _Otocinclus affinis_ there.  :Wink:

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## chicknb

Storm, thank you for your comments and for the ID.

Tony

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