# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Catfishes >  celticfish's Hypancistrus zebra pleco (L046) thread 02 - The Great Blight

## celticfish

After the spawning alpha male got killed all has been quiet in my zebra tanks.
However, I have noticed an increase in activities since last Wednesday evening (23 April 200 :Cool: .

I have my fish separated into two groups as follows:
Tank A - 6 pcs in the top tier 
Tank B - 9 pcs in the bottom tier 


*TANK A*
The "new" alpha from (bruiser) my latest group was moved up into the original group.
Along with the confirmed alpha female (lilith) and two suspect females (white female and omega female), and two "firm" males (white male and pale male).
Since last week the smallest suspect femle (omega female) has been ramming herself at the cave entrance to get in, fiesty little fellas this one! 
Sunday day, I thought omega would make it in the cave.
But after some snooping... it was the "firm male", pale male, that got in!!  :Opps:  
Here's the funny thing, before this the alpha female was on top of the white male's cave while the pale "male" on around bruiser's cave.
After pale "male" went in the cave all the other fish seem to congregate at bruiser's cave.
I suppose time can only tell if the white dove is coming or the raven... 



*TANK B*
Beta male from my original group was moved down for his own safety.
I thought bruiser might send him to meet adam (original alpha male).
There are more pieces in this tank as the smallest ones are not quite of breeding size yet. 
And they had to be housed somewhere...  :Grin: 
btw, other than beta male, all fish in this tank are suspect-"somethings".
ie. they are either suspect-males or suspect-females.
On that basis its a 7:2 basis of males to female ratio.
Just my luck again a "suspect male" has gone in the cave with the beta male...  :Knockout: 


A little fast forward to the early morning of today...
All fishes are still in the respective caves.
Bruiser and beta male are trying their hardest to keep the "offending" fish in their cave.
So right now I really don't know if I should be expected a KIA of "firm"/"suspect" males this evening or few days...
Or, the unveiling of a "happy" new L046 couple/s...  :Huh?: 


PS - Yes, they all have names and I do recognize them individually. 
However, I am unable to sex them even if my life depended on it!!!  :Grin:

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## Gecko

That was fun! Ir, maybe everytime you have a suspect male, just consider it a female, you might have found a new way to sex them  :Wink: 

On a serious note, if you can look into the cave without disturbing them too much, if it is a alpha wannabe, it would be wedged against the end and you will see the body turning white from being eaten alive...

I am pretty sure you have females trapped inside as juvenile male would only make the mistake of entering the cave when the alpha is out, not trying hard to get in when he is in.

Looking forward to good news, 2 spawns no less...

Cheers

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## eeeeemo

hey guys. nice update irwin. i wonder if i can pay a visit to both of your tanks and ask some questions. for me.. most of the time the only lights that get to my tank is ambient light.. and my curtains are always down. its hard for me to observe their behavior!

occasionally il wake up to the fishes in different caves from before i went to sleep. but the male which ate his clutch of eggs the last time always maintained his cave.. female is always on top of his cave as well.. but i just cant trigger them to spawn again... how????

honestly, i have NEVER seen a female get trapped before.. the reason why they spawned that time was cause i completely ignored them.. except to dump in bloodworms for dinner.


irwin. i copied your set up! but i have 6 L46 in a 2ft. should i reduce it to 3 (2M 1F) per 2ft? since i am sure about the the alpha male and female.

if you can take a photo of their genitals...

this is what i suspect:

female


male


HOWEVER... the female in this picture displays a male behavior, always in a cave..
but its genital is the same shape as the alpha female...male in the picture is a confirmed male.

heres the top view of both fishes!
suspect female (male behavior) on the left, confirmed male (probably beta) on the right.


here is top view of alpha female on the left and suspect female on the right


note that the fishes in the last picture have the same body shape!!!
and the alpha female is definitely a female!!

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## celticfish

@ Gecko,

IF it really turns out that way I might have a "formula"!  :Grin: 
That's the thing, if it was omega female I wouldn't be so worried.
The "firm" male, pale male, has not tried getting into the alpha male's cave before.

I've also been taking picture of and staring at their sex organs... wait... that didn't come out right.
I've been observing thier reproductive organs and still come out without "positive" results.
The "oval" versus "nubby" papillia and all... *ARGH*


@ eeeeemo,
"Patience Daniel San... patience..." kekeke
Okay, back to your questions...

LIGHTS:
If you read my thread on the first spawning I got.
My lighting regime was about 6 PM to 3 AM (yes, me is a 'might bird').
They spawned in this light timing.

The "second season" when my original alpha male spawned again was 12 noon to 6 PM.
During this time I switched the timing again to 7 AM (to wake me up  :Grin: ) to 2 PM.

Also, when I am home in the evnings or weekend the light is on all the time I'm home.
The recent activities I post in this thread was observed while I'm having a meal, watching T.V. or just goofing-off in my room.
They displayed all the behaviour mentioned in post one through the day.
I do, however, notice that from evening onwards the activities got more frequent.

So from my own experience lighting isn't really a factor to observed them.
Just need the patience to be in front of the tank long enough...


"MUSICAL CAVES":
Yes this does happen.
Especially when you add new fish or the fish are new to the tank/setup.
Everyone wants to try out the "latest" cave, so to speak...  :Laughing: 
Once the "honeymoon" period of acclimatizting to the new tank is there though...
The clear alpha will make a choice and his stand there.
But like humans they can change their minds too! 
This I noticed when added to the group and/or did some reshuffling.
The "top dawg" will decide and stay put.
Change his mind and relocate.
And then suddenly decide to go back to base again... go figure! *sigh*


NUMBER OF FISH IN TANK:
Reference my original thread again.
When they first spawned there were 13 pcs in the tank.
7 adult size and 6 sub-adults.
So I don't think what you have in your tank is "uncomfortable".


INTERPRETATION OF YOUR SPAWNING THREAD:
Now to the meat...
From what I read about your thread... I'm gonna be direct hor?...
You made quite a few boo boo's.
First, I think you moved your fish "wholesale" from the top tier to the lower tier" without acclimatization (major number one "no no" in fishkeeping).
Two, If you had one egg ballin hand and one in the cave, leave it be.
Then you will be able to obeserve the ones kicked-out and leave the rest ion the cave for the "new" daddy to learn.
This also give you "two chances" for the brood.
But, hey, if you don't make boo-boo's in the hobby how are you going to learn!  :Smile: 


FEMALE CYCLE TIME:
If we assume your thread date as your female's laying date...
This mean ealiest, in my experice, 15th March plus 24 days = 9 April.
Latest in a cycle would be 15th March plus 28 days = 11 April.
That means... "I sense a disturbance in the Force...".
Again, I think your hasty transfer from the top tier to bottom tier has affected them.
I'm assuming that the differeces in tank water parameters are affecting them here plus the "shock" of the transfer.
btw the water "shock" could be what killed your eggs but you did mention seeing the embryo so I'm not too certain on how your eggs died.


SAVING GRACE:
They've "Done it!".
So they've gotta do it again!
Feedback from zebra breeders is that the first is the hardest and once they started the hardest is behind.
So rest well in that knowledge and don't mess with them anymore!  :Mad: 


I reckon if you left them be like you did, for a while, they will get back with the program.
At the rate its raining in SG, I'm guessing this will be a/near "La Nina" year... 
Layman's terms, good weather for fish to BREED!
SO, just sit back, do nothing.
And WAIT...  :Cool: 


Wow, I should start a new thread for you...  :Grin: 

The "suspect male" body shape, in particular the head area, is the usual shape that throws a lot of keepers off.
My "suspect male" with bruiser has this shape too but the cheek odontodes is "lusher" than my original alpha male's!
How to confirm their sex with such contardictory signs?!?... *sigh*.

*CROSS FINGERS AND TOES HE DOESN'T SEE DEAD L046 TONIGHT*...

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## eeeeemo

wow! thanks for the advises! i knew it was a hasty transfer.. =( but i only have one pump and one day... however i made sure that 70&#37; of the water belonged to the old tank. it was a mistake..if i hadn't shifted them i would have seen small zebbies around the tank in around 10days! =(
but i haven't touched their tank since then! will take a picture of the tank soon.. you'll find my tank looking very very familiar ...  :Grin: 

i am not uncomfortable with the overcrowding.. but i was thinking in the sense of setting up another colony... a zebra tank can only have one spawner right? so if i have a suspect female.. should i set up another tank for her? i won't touch the alpha male and female as well as leaving a weak male to be dominated by the alpha male.. then transfer the beta male + suspect female + another unknown into another tank.. is 3 enough to induce spawning behavior?

anyway.. my alpha female has a very lush cheek.... its really very difficult to tell. if you ever shift them.... take a good photograph of their genitals. its the only way to be sure..

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## Savant

This is very exciting and yet at the same time very disturbing. Hope they turn out to be the couple they ought to be...

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## celticfish

Hehehe! I'm a HAPPY CAMPER!!!
Bruiser and the "suspect male" are a pair!... OMG what am I saying!!!
And "Thar BEE eggs!!!"  :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy: 

Yes, like Adam's first spawn one sole egg was kicked out for me to look.
The kicked out egg looks unviable as its clouding.
But it's the biggest sized egg I've seen so far for my L046's...
The egg ball doesn't look big but hey, I'm certainly not complaining!
Too add to the mix, omega female is STILL trying to get in with the eggs in place!!
Wow... this is a first for me.  :Shocked: 


Beta male is still with the "suspect".
But in the grand scheme of things... that's good "He" is not dead!
Let's see what happens tomorrow... Stay tuned boys and girls!  :Wink:  (I didn't wait till tomorrow!)

Now, how the heck am I going to sleep!  :Knockout:  (We already know the answer to this one!)


This portion after 2 A.M.
Oh, dang! 
I think he might be shooting blanks!
I just fished out another cloudy egg... 
And the "suspect male" still looks gravid!  :Laughing: 
Its gonna be a long night... 

Shucks! Make that three eggs!  :Mad: 
But omega female is still at it!
Bruiser seems to be a stud in the making though...  :Grin: 

Okay, here's another unusual observation.
The "suspect male's" anal area looks a little reddish!
Hmmm... I'm not going to say it but the adult folks know!  :Laughing:

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## celticfish

I've found a total of five eggs all kicked out.
One is already opaque and I don't think the rest are viable too...
No more eggs in the cave.

Omega is still trying to ram herself in as I type.
Only two things can happen with her persistence...
She's going to lay eggs or it will be her death sentence.
I do suspect she interrupted the spawning as the, now confirmed female, still looks gravid.
I might just have to get her out and let the two get on with the program... hmm...

Remember I said the alpha female has eyes on the other firm white male?
Uh-huh... passes have been made at him!  :Grin: 
Overall everyone is rather excited in this tank, I see lots of tail wagging.  :Laughing: 
(I think I was wagging along with them in all my excite but cannot really remember now...)


Beta still has the other fish trapped.
I don't see him eating it alive so that's a very good sign.
Maybe he's got Sade playing in his cave?  :Confused: 


@ eeeeemo,
No worries about the tank looking similar.
Otherwise I wouldn't have post my pictures! 
First golden rule of fishkeeping is "look fast and act slow"...  :Grin: 

One pair is sufficient to spawn.
Two spawning pair in a tank is possible but most reports I've heard are at least 3 ft or larger.
There's not much real estate to run in a 2 ft tank...
Two others, locally, have more than one spawning pair in their tanks, 4 ft.
But I do believe "sexual tension" is required/good for these fish and that means for both sexes.
My belief is, though I cannot prove it, they seem to live "better" in a colony with a social structure.


@ savant,
Thanks for for well wishes.
Turned out okay! *phew*
Just to add on this point.
Getting KIA's is part and parcel of breeding hypancistrus and like.
When spawning behaviour starts aggression rears its head.
And the ideal spawning choice, one way in and one way out, doesn't help too.  :Exasperated: 
All too often a sub-adult male will wonder into a cave that an alpha has vacated to feed and gets itself into trouble. 
This I have found out a couple of times already with an alpha male as a victim to boot!  :Knockout:

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## yorky

Celticfish, this is one interesting breeding journal.
Almost akin to a romantic novel if it keeps going on.
Well done!

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## celticfish

@ yorky,
Credit goes to the fish again.
Without them I wouldn't know what to write!  :Laughing: 



*UPDATE*
Just converted the pictures of the eggs.
In comparison with the alpha female that spawn first these eggs are larger visually to me.
I have placed them under a ruler for judgement of size.
Its 5 mm in diameter, go measure the picture if you want to make sure...  :Shocked: 
Should pale female, now confirmed, continue to spawn I would reckon her egg count easily hit the 20's.
She is visibly much larger and bulkier than lilith the alpha female.


Picture of the five eggs.
You can already see the clouding in the eggs.
The snails are going to have very expensive caviar today...  :Crying: 



With a ruler for judgement of size.

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## Gecko

Great feedback Ir. The only 2 cents I would add is that females are also known to hide in caves. Also, fish are just like individuals with their own habits and likes. I on my tank lights only when I feel like viewing, no fixed timing, etc. There are general practices which generally will work....I concur with Ir, "act slow".

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## eeeeemo

oh my goodness..... please teach me how to trigger them!!!!!

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## leeruisheng

That's cool celticfish. The eggs looks like sago pearls. And a damm expensive one. :Laughing:

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## celticfish

@ eeeeemo,
I really didn't do much.
My routine was the same.
Only thing I conciously changed was the grouping right after Adam's early demise...
Believe me, if I could "trigger" them and post this thread right before... I'd resign from my day job and breed L046 full-time!  :Laughing: 
The posting one day before the event can be attributed to pure luck on my part.
But I'd like to believe that as one's experience grows in the hobby one's "skill" grows accordingly.
Thus one is able to better predict what could happen next from observation and understanding of the particular species.
One more ace I have is the weather!  :Grin: 
Its been raining quite consistently these pass few weeks.
I'm sure that helped quite a bit.


@ leeruisheng,
You can say that again!  :Exasperated: 
And as far as I've seen damn big ones too!  :Laughing: 


UPDATE:
As mentioned earlier the whole spawn of five eggs went bad.
I'm not too concern about that, yet, as most reports mention that the first spawn is normally a "trail run".
The female being larger also means she has been carrying eggs for a while too.
Do they go "bad"?
I don't know but I'm guessing a little clearing of "old stock" doesn't hurt.  :Grin: 

Surprising thing is that bruiser vacated the cave and alpha femaleis there...
Omega looked like she got roughed up.
She has a reddish spot on the right flank of her face.
Sounds like she got slapped for interrupting the.... (you fill it up here, okay? :Grin: )

Beta male is on his own though another one tried to get in.
Guess he'll need to try another CD next time.

Seems to have quite down a little.
And I REALLY REALLY need to get to bed.
Maybe tomorrow will be better? 
Lord knows... Lord knows...

Good night peeps!  :Knockout:

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## celticfish

Well, most of "tomorrow" is gone...
Woke up this morning to a really funny sight, at least for me.
Initially I thought bruiser shrunk in size.
A couple of blinks later I realized it was omega female!  :Laughing: 
Its quit hilarious that she managed to evict/scare bruiser away.
If you can see the size difference between them... the randy little runt!  :Evil: 
I saw him cowering beside his cave, very unusual sight.
Only get to catch him out of the cave when I return in the evening and turn on the lights.
Otherwise I just see his tail... 

I've also decided to change "pale male's" name to "Blue-Eyes female" ("female" suffixed just to make sure the older folks don't confuse her with Frank Sinatra). 
Not the ratio in this tank and suddenly turned around to 2:4!
The two males in this tank are "really" males, I hope...  :Opps: 
The females break down is - 2 x confirmed, 1 x high suspect (omega) and 1 x suspect.


Transition to the other tank, it now looks like beta male has changed strategy, he's got Barry White on CD.  :Cool: 
And the cool cat's got someone else in there now.
I cannot ID for sure as the rascal's got the cave blocked-up pretty well.
Only thing I can tell is this one is a smaller fish than the one before.
At this time we'd like to ask all the little boys and girls to, please cover your eyes thank you.
Hopefully he watched the music video for the "moves" too...  :Evil:

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## celticfish

*Photo ID of Blue-Eyes the "suspect male" now turned confirmed female.*


This is the look that threw me off.
The head looks like a spade from this angle.



A little more female looking here in body shape.



Here the body is is the typical female shape.
But the bumps just in front of the eyes again hint at another male trait.
However the pectoral odontode growth is very minimal too.



Even from a frontal view the cheek odontodes look male in the lushness of growth.
Some males do not have growth anywhere near her's.



Same even growth of cheek odontodes on both sides!



Remember what they said in "Zebra sexing 101" about the cheek odontodes not growing past the pectoral fin in females?
Throw that book away...
If I was pressed for a sex with this picture - MALE!



Genitalia papillia (hope I spelt this correctly, is very clear too.
Its almost nubby is shape rather than a rounded "V"
Check the bulge on the right hand side...  :Evil:

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## Gecko

I see what you mean! 

My wife choose zebras by viewing from the top, if both the same size, the broad one according to her is female. She is right here....

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## celticfish

Disaster in the tank.
Just realized right after my previous post that they all had rotting fins and some a flim over their eye.
Some of them didn't even react when I tried to check if they were among the living...  :Knockout: 
They were also breathing really fast.
Did a 50% water change immediately and put in extra aeration.
So far after about 3 hours they seem better.
At least they are moving around a little now.

I have no idea what happened and thank God it only happened in this tank.
The other tank is, so far, alright and still squabbling with one another. 
So here you have it an excellent examlple of the ups and downs of fish keeping... *sigh*

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## Savant

Oh no!!

Hope they get better soon. I read somewhere long time ago that Plecos are rather sensitive to medication. Which ones are you using?

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## celticfish

Yes, plecos are sentitive to most medication.
I was told that you should use half the dosage for them is you don't know if the medication is pleco safe.
Melafix, Primafix and Waterlife Myxazin are used at full dosage without fear.
Seems to be quite a popular and pleco safe medications.

Thing is I don't believe in medication until its clear cut diagnosis.
Most time I depend on water changes and the heater.
This has clear them of ick and orange blisters when I first got them.
Whats going on now is totally new to me and I cannot figure it out...  :Exasperated:

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## Savant

Fin rot and cloudy eyes sound like fungal infection? 

I note there are quite a number of experienced pleco keepers in Singapore. Maybe you can check with them if something like this has happened to them before.

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## eeeeemo

any pictures? maybe other fish keepers have experienced it before.
i agree.. raising the temperature really helps them to overcome alot of problems..
feeding... sickness..
btw.. is this a typical female body shape...?

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## Savant

I have been looking at pictures of females (fishes) from various forums and yes, it does look like a female  :Smile:  

Good luck with your breeding project!

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## eeeeemo

savant! how sure are you?? =)
if you're right id have 3 females 3 males....

let me confuse *you* a little....
here is a combined pic of this suspect female and my alpha male..
notice their body shape.. is actually the same? except for the head structure...

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## Savant

I think the one on the left looks more like a male and the one on the right female. 

But yes, its hard to tell... but with 6 fishes, you should at least have a breeding pair?

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## eeeeemo

yeap i do..
haha but sigh.. waited for near 6weeks *ALREADY* since their last spawn.. still no action at all!
not even pre spawn signs.. and ive tried everything.. varying the temps with the rains and doing more water changes.
i just have to wait more =)

savant are you going to set up a zebra tank??

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## Savant

Yes. The tank's pretty much set up now (see my "Savant's L46 Project" thread), except for the caves and more rock work. 

Waiting for the tank to cycle properly. In the meantime, reading up as much as I can and sourcing for livestock.

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## celticfish

I couldn't wait to get up this morning.
Almost expecting a tankfull of "motionless" zebras to greet me.
Well, they were pretty still but closer observation saw their gill moving rapidly.

Enough observation... getting "kancheong" (anxious)...  :Opps: 
If they had been a little mroe active I wouldn't start the meds and continue observation.
So I did a water change and started a course of Waterlife Myzaxin.
This is the best picture I have for now.
Some of them have their fins rotting quite badly.
It not clear in this picture but there is also a translucent film over the right eye.
The "rotting" is also located on some parts of their bodies.



*FINGERS AND TOES TIGHTLY CROSSED*

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## celticfish

Armed with activated charcoal, melafix and pimafix, he walks into the room to "check it out"... 
SANTA MARIA!!! They're not dead!  :Jump for joy: 
Though they still don't look suave anymore, they look a little better off tonight.
The "worse" thing is, to rush home ASAP to do "something" for them...
Only to find that there's NOTHING you can do now... *sigh*...
So I'm now trying to go to sleep and do the "next step" tomorrow.

The "rot" looks a little better and they seem to be clearing.
Obviously the fin rot has taken its toll and the flim around the eyes are still there but they look alraight.
Two of them are breathing normally while the rest look the same, hyperventilating.

*Says a Prayer before sleep tonight*

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## akoh

Bro, when was the last time you service the filteration system ? quality water for zebra breeding is the KEY !.  :Smile:

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## celticfish

@ akoh,
I was talking to Gecko last night and he had the same suspicion.


Action taken so far is:

On first day 70% water draw down.
Water topped to 60%.
Waited 3 hrs then to 75%.
Waited one hour then did a cannister cleaning.
After the cleaning water was at 50%.
Waited one hour water to 80%.

Next day morning course of Myzaxin started after 30% WC and temp reduced to 29C.
Evening time casualties as stated above.

This early morning...
My hail Santa Maria didnt quite work for all...
Alpha female lilith is dead this morning...  :Crying: 
One suspect female looks bad as does the firm male.
The bright side is Blue-eyes is loking better, fins okay and eyes seem to be clearing.
Alpha male bruiser's fins look bad but he's active.

Did a 30% WC and added the second dose of Myzaxin.
I'm expecting another death or two this evening.
More on this later this evening.

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## akoh

Bro, go easy on the water change, just let the system run, drop in another air line and just keep both eyes on the zebras.

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## celticfish

@ akoh,
I would like to but not much choice with a 2 ft...
The initial one was to clear the water fast to remove potential contaminates.
After the first day I will carry on with 30&#37; and medication daily.


The good news is I came home to live fishes!  :Jump for joy:  *still got fingers crossed*
Two of them still look quite critical while the other two look okay.
Some "healing" of fins observed but there are lingering spots on the body still.
The eyes are also clearing and I take this as the best sign so far.

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## akoh

Did you draw aged water from the 3 footers ?, reckon water quality in those tanks should be quite champion !  :Smile:

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## eeeeemo

heys.
i just saw a similar problem encountered by a pleco keeper in pleco club sg..
here is the link: http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/showthread.php?t=553
he seems to have cured his pleco. though its not a L046.. i hope it helps.

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## celticfish

After much investigation I believe they have got _Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia
_.
Signs of this is the fin conidtion and red lesions on the body.'
I noticed red lesions on lilith's tail and central chest cavity.
Chances this is a secondary infection from the cannister problem.

This does not bode well for the another that fish looks this way.
I suspect the red lesions are late/advance signs.
Probably lose another tonight... 
At best I can only hope to treat two fish successfully.
I'd be quite happy with that.


@ eeeeemo,
I've read it and the symptoms seem similar.


@ akoh,
That's a swell idea!  :Idea:

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## celticfish

As predicted, another casualty.
This time its the firm male.

The remaining three fish seem better.
One thing about this bacteria is that its really common.
Though its not a common appearence in our aquariums... my a** luck or tuition fee... 
When the fish turn "pink" its probably going to die soon.
Confirmed this with observation of the last casualty.
When I fished it out it had a pinkish hue on the body.
Closer observation one can observe that the pinkish hue is the red lesions.

Blue-eyes seems to be in the clear and is breathing normally.
Bruiser moves with vigour but has spots around his body yet to clear.
The suspect white female is still breathing rapidly though her body is clearing.
The dying has got to stop NOW!  :Mad:

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## Savant

Hope your fishes do better.

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## celticfish

Thanks Savant!
I think going with the "look alikes" is a good start to learn about hypancistrus.

The fish seem to be doing well and I don't think there will be more deaths from this blight. *major crossing of fingers*
I will continue the doses Myazin to complete the 5 day course.
I also started a Pimafix course since Wednesday this will last till nest Tuesday tp complete the 7 day course.

I'm now reconsidering my "no medication" concept.
It seems plecos need this when "it" happens.
Success rate seems reasonable to me with 3 out of 5 recovering.
Honestly, I had expected them to all go to pleco heaven.
I've never had high hopes on sick fish and medication.

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## akoh

Bro, medication is the last resort for me, alway believe in champion quality water treatment. Sometime it is the medication that kill them !.

Remember I told you , I found my 16" Xingu Platinum very sick after my Vietnam trip. I changed all the filtering stuffs, drained 50%, top-up 50% from my 6 footer, increase air output and no feeding ( anyway they are too sick to eat, add food will only worsen the water quality). Once he show signs of recovery/improvement, then I introduce mild melafix treatment.

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## celticfish

@ akoh,
Yes, total agreement medication is always be the last resort.
But this occassion I'm now thinking if I could have saved the other two if I started the medication a day or two earlier...  :Confused: 
Confirming the right medication to use is also important.

This morning is the final dose of the Myzaxin.
And the Pimafix will continue for the reccomended 7 days.
I also noticed that Pimafix give the water a "soapy" condition with lots of bubbles on the surface.
I suppose this is why te DO level gets reduced and one needs to increase aeration in the medicated tank.

Since you mentioned food they are eating now! *phew*
I started with minimal BW to see if anyone was eating.
Once this was verified I continued their feeding but at one third the usual.
Signs of recovery in the fins and the spots clearing.
Blue-eyes was the first to get the clear, her breathing rate is now normal.
White female breathing is still a little rapid.
Bruiser I cannot see since he's stuck in a cave now, also a good sign.

May I ask what is the reduced amount of Melafix you used? 50&#37; doasge?
btw why Melafix and not Pimafix?
Also, do you follow through with the 7 day dosing?

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## akoh

Quote : " May I ask what is the reduced amount of Melafix you used? 50% doasge?
btw why Melafix and not Pimafix?
Also, do you follow through with the 7 day dosing? " 

Bro, 

About 50% dosage.

I've use both, depending on the degree and type of illness.

Sometime, once condition improve I'll stop treatment and do a 20 to 30% partial water change ( with aged water ).  :Smile:

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## celticfish

Thanks for the input on your medication regime akoh! 


On the disease... 
While searching for information on the disease I kept coming across "grame-positive" and "gram-negative".
So I thought I'd explain it here but very briefly and in layman's terms, okay?  :Grin: 

There are "Gram-Positive" and "Gram-Negative" bacteria.
Gram refers to the Danish physician Hans Christian Gram who invented this "Dye Staining technique" in 1884. 
Essentially, the bateria is killed, dyed and wash in a solvent.
If the dye does not remain it is gram-negative and indicates that the bateria has a outer protective coat.
In layman's terms, you're up the creek with a more resistent bug.

The Aeromonas hydrophila (Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia) my fish have is gram-negative.
Being gram-negative means some anti-biotics (like penecillin) may not work on them!
So its quite possible the fish survived this episode on their own rather than the medication I dumped in...
This might explain the high mortality rate of 2 out of 5 fish.

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## Savant

Bro,

Not sure if this will help but I was thinking that if the cause is bacteria infection, will running a UV steriliser will help to kill off any bacteria in the water stream (but leave BB in the filter intact)?

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## celticfish

@ RUNNER,
Thanks for you well wishes.
The juveniles are fine and in another tank.


The good news is that the first tank is pretty in the clear on the outbreak.
The bad news is the other tank has the same issue now... RATS!!
I did start them on Myzaxin last week though.
So they aren't looking as bad as the first tank.
No more deaths, I'd had enough!  :Mad:

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## Quixotic

The other tank as well? Hmmm... is something transferring the bacteria? Perhaps consider sterilising the equipments (shared or not) as well.

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## Savant

Oh dear, hope the early detection will make a difference. Have you considered a UV sterilizer?

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## celticfish

@ Quixotic,
You're talking to the problem!  :Laughing: 
My best guess is the hose or my dirty hands.
When I did the search on the symptoms they did imply that _Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia_ was a secondary infection.
i.e. something hit their immunity and gives this bacteria a chance to infect the fish.
Apparently its very common occuring present in our fish tanks.

Gecko brought the point of a pH crash but I don't think that was it.
But he and akoh suspected the filter which I did agree as I couldn't point my finger on anything concrete.
I still can't say with certainty on what caused it.

I suppose the next "lesson" I get here will be how treatable this is when caught early...


@ Savant,

Nope. Brave huh?
Then again maybe foolhardy in believe his fish will make it!  :Laughing:

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## Savant

Well Braveheart, fortune favors the bold or so I was told...

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## celticfish

HAHAHA... *sigh*...
Actually, when it first occured in tank one I was already prepared for half all my fish to go.
Its really part and parcel of fish keeping.
The end you hope for is that your knowledge gets better and the next set or remaining thrive better in your hands.
Of course I want a 100% unblemished record, who doesn't? 
I have a belief in this hobby that if you don't loose fish you will not learn very much.
There will be setbacks now and again but I hope to overcome them as come. 
This is not the first and niether will I ever think its the last.

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## eeeeemo

well said..
but still.. one zebra pleco is really alot to lose...
not for the soft hearted!

irwin, perhaps you left your filters unrunned for too long? and the bacteria died off alittle.. and when you connect it back it sprays all the dead bacteria out?

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## celticfish

@ eeeeemo,

Its quite unlikely to be the filter as its on 24/7.
And my water change regime should take care of practically any water issues.
I do suspect some pathogen sneaked in the tank.
As mentioned earlier, the fish die from secondary infection as the bacteria that killed them is very common in our fish tanks.
The "good thing" is that its "treatable", though I do suspect its their own immunity that eventually overcomes the bacteria.

The tally so far is a lot more than that.
I have already lost 7 pieces before this incident (minimum cost at $300+ each).
Fish are livestock and no one can guarantee they won't die.
So...

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## Savant

Aiyo, at least yours are breeding mate... so its not a unrenewed loss...

the high cost of fish deaths make keeping and breeding this fish a high adrenaline activity!!

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## celticfish

Oh, the second loss came this morning.
Of the remaining 8 in this tank, 4 don't look good and 4 look 'okay'.
I think I'll be quite please to save 5 from the 10...


Hmm... I think I need to write up a "primer" or "please consider before..." thread on zebras.
I get the feeling I'm making "trouble" for newbies everytime I post pictures.
Everyone starts _thinking_ ...
"wah, so cute, I want to breed!" 
"wah, one fish $300 then one spawn of 10 fish equals $3000. Thats means I 'pay' for the parents after one spawn!" 
"wah, I only need a trio of 1xM and 2xF and I have a colony!"...

You get the picture...

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## illumnae

i think a primer is a good idea celticfish  :Smile:

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## eeeeemo

hahaha yeah.. look at the activity you have induced in posting your fry harvests pictures  :Grin: 

but my zebras, i feel are quite hardy.. but i dare not ever try to push them to see how hardy they are.
today just took tap water reading, 7.9!!!! man... another 0.1 degree i am able to keep sulawesi shrimps.. i was wondering how come my zebra tank read 7.4.
always though it was about 6.8.

how is your water parameters like irwin?

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## Panut

what should the PH of the water be for L46?

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## Gecko

> i think a primer is a good idea celticfish


I second that, let me know if I can help.

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## Savant

Will be looking forward to this!!

Do let me know how I can help too. Maybe I can contribute by providing a list of questions that a beginer may want to ask.

To avoid another fever, you may wish to focus the primer on raising L46 rather than specifically breeding them  :Smile:

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## celticfish

Well, let me get through this first before the "consider this first before buying L046..."

Total dead = 8
One more on the way... (I'm getting good at fortelling their departure  :Grin: )
Its a very gruesome way they go.
You can tell they are struggling with the rapid breathing.
The fins rot and their skin peals.
This follows with occassional spasms. 
And if they turn "pink" you know they will be departing real soon... 

This event is nothing short of a genetic pool disaster...  :Knockout: 
Now I'd be lucky to have five of them left after this disaster.
The only silver lining is the "pair" that did the dud spawn is among them, so far...  :Opps:

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## akoh

Bro,  :Sad:   :Crying:  let me know if I can be of any help !

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## celticfish

Thanks to all the PM's and kind offer guys!  :Kiss: 

I think it will be some time before I can safely say they are out of the woods.
Any thoughts on how to add the fry (from last batch) or new fish will be appreciated too.
Also, how long should I wait for them to be "clear" of this pestilence? 
Recovery plan is already on the drawing board.

In the grand scheme of my L046 breeding plan this might end up as a blip if I last my target of over _decades_  (yes, you didn't read wrong) for this project.
I'm just past the one and a half year mark since starting in Sept '06.

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## joopsg

could it be the hot wheather or the recently ph hike in our water causing all this ??

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## celticfish

So far the pair that spawned are doing fine in their own tank.
Four left in another.
Two seem clear though a little edgy.
Two have sunken belly.
One of the two with sunken belly had no tail.
You could literally see the raw flesh and the bone.
But it now has a growth of a new tail fin... amazing though I don't think it will make it.
I'm still hesitent to combine them into the same tank with the pair.

I think it will take years to recover from this fiasco...
Certainly not a highlight of my fish keeping record.
Changes are at hand though.
I've procrastinatic the changes and it seems time and chance has caught up...  :Exasperated: 


@ joopsg,
I think its the water but not the pH part.
I have a pH meter in the tank and there weren't unusual changes.

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## celticfish

The "tail-less" zebra I thought would go to pleco heaven is still among the living.
And just to spite my prediction of its death it growing a tail now...  :Surprised: 

I'm now considering putting the two recovered ones with the pair.
And leave the other two, belly still looks sunken, in the tank with their new L134 mate, belly also sunken... *faints"
The two recovered ones have "full" bellies so I reckon they should be good as gold now.

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## Panut

IMHO those who survived are very much stronger and immune to diseases after coming out of this  :Smile:

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## Savant

Care to share how you nurse him back to health?

I have a near tailess 183 I'm trying to save...

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## celticfish

Savant,
I've posted the reply in your thread.
Remember to keep the oxygenation up when you medicate.
Most medications seem to reduce oxygen levels in a tank.

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## celticfish

Well, after all the recent disaster I have better news to report.
One of the ones with a sunken belly is now "filling" up.
I use to see stretch marks on the belly but that gone now!  :Jump for joy: 
This is the same fish that lost its whole tail.
You could see the raw fesh on both sides of the bone... 
Now its sporting a new baby tail.  :Grin: 
I will try to get some pictures posted on the before and after for this guy. 

I also moved one of the better recovered fish to Bruiser and Blue-eye's tank.
This one is a suspect female.
Hopefully this will add some sexual tension to the tank.  :Evil: 
But I reckon Bruiser needs about three months more of recovery time.
His cheek odontodes aren't as lush at the moment and his tail is now good as "new".

I'm now down to a confirm male and female, one suspect male (Vee) and three females.
So if all goes well the disaster would leave me with two males and four females... no a bad ratio.

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## Gecko

Regenerating 'limb' in a fish! I have seen other panaques or pseudas taking years and sometimes never in growing back a hard spine (dorsal or pectoral)...and here a zebra is regrowing a full tail! Do take pictures. Your water parameters must be incredibly top notch!

Next time I find adults, you have first picks.

The bright side is that your juveniles are from different blood line and can join the breeding colony.

Cheers

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## celticfish

@ Gecoko,
Thanks! 
Yes, the fry being from different fish is a help.
The timeline is now about two to three years...  :Knockout: 
Wonder if anyone think of this point.  :Roll Eyes: 



As promised.

Before picture and you can see the flesh and bones.
Picture from my mobile phone camera so its not as clear...  :Opps: 



After picture with the "new" tail.

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## taygu

The fish in picture 2 looks "angry".. :Laughing:  :Laughing:

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## celticfish

Yes, it was definitely not very pleased with me moving the shelter it was in away...  :Grin:

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## celticfish

So... after 10 months there is finally signs of activity!
Bruiser has just trappped Blue-eyes last evening.
Can't wait to see what happens from this trapping.
And to think I was about to sell him off!... *phew*
Even if nothing happens I'll be a happy camper!  :Grin:

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## johannes

damn..... non-stop action...! :Laughing:

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## akoh

Horny little fellas !  :Grin:

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## Hongjinbao

Finally there's action after 10 months. Do keep us updated of the progress!  :Smile:

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## celticfish

Satus quo!
They are still camped in the cave together...
Still good news for me! hehe

A side note - the tail-less fish in the previous post is also being a busy-body in front of the cave.
Hopefully she doesn't stop them from doing the "nasty"...  :Opps:

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## drakeho

Double the fun ??  :Laughing:  The male is lucky man ! Must be very handsome

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## Wackytpt

Haha... congrats Irwin.

Drake: MSN not on?

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## celticfish

There be eggs!  :Grin: 
Not a big clutch though I'd say about 5 or 6 eggs.
But I glade the started again after the very loooooong wait.

The other female is also trying to get in!  :Shocked: 
Now I'm in a dilemma...
This female is going out next week...  :Exasperated:

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## StanChung

Going out? [Shopping?  :Grin: ]

Or sold?

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## celticfish

Sold lah....  :Exasperated:

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## StanChung

Aiks... buy back?  :Grin:

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## khtee

congratulation!!!! .... seem like all zebra like to breed in the early months of the years.  :Razz:

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## celticfish

I think its the "tail end" of the spawning season now.
Notice our weather has been getting warmer with less rain recently.
So I'm really glade the "slow poke" did something!  :Grin: 

The clutch is still "in the game".
Bruiser is mouthing away, blue-eyes is "Clearing" the area in front of the cave and tail-less is trying its darndest to sneak in!  :Laughing: 

I took some quick and dirty pictures earlier.
Hopefully, I get some time to post them later.

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## khtee

just wonder if we can introduce artificial raining? using music to simulate the thunder effect and also rainbar for the filter output.

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## illumnae

how are you going to simulate the lower air pressure at raintime?  :Smile:

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## khtee

> how are you going to simulate the lower air pressure at raintime?


That's interesting. Never think of that. Will look up for more information.

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## Savant

Think what some of the guys do is to lower the water level in the tank for a few days and then top up thereafter...

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## celticfish

The main changes they feel during the rainy season is the low pressure systems.
This drop in pressure, IMHO, is the main cause rather than splashing, light or sound (I think they feel this more than hear!).
I'm sure other factors help too but this factor is an "act of God" which us mere hobbyist will be hard pressed to emulate!



Back to topic...  :Grin: 

Let me present my main man - *Bruiser*



Here's the happening outside his cave in sequece.

*ACT 1*
A crowded scene with "tail-less" on the left.



*ACT 2*
Blue-eyes comes to stake her claim! (lower right)
The ensuing storm created clears most of the little fells from the scene.



*ACT 3*
This picture is tempting me to do a stupid act myself real soon...  :Exasperated: 



*ACT 4*
The Mexican stand-off

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## Savant

What sand is that you are using?

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## Edmundo

Your zebbies are very stable, even with the bright lights they are still so calm. cheers.

Savant, i think iz red quartz.  :Smile:

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## celticfish

Savant,
As Edmundo says its red quartz.
I love this "sand"!
Unfortunately, its no longer avialable.
Mainland use to bring it in.
I managed to find some from a heads-up and take over by some kind AQ members.

Edmundo,
You notce the flash to arh?  :Grin: 
I was surprised and very pleased they paid me no heed while I snapped away.
You can tell I didnt give a hoot towards the end of the photo session from the last picture.
I closed-in the flashed till they end up in the picture! :lol
The focus point was also somewhere in the middle of the cave.
I was hoping for a shot of the eggball...  :Opps:

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## Edmundo

i think OTF and International Aquarium at Pasir Ris Farmway have them.  :Smile:

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## celticfish

Cool!
Will have a "look see" if I can find a way to get there.
Thanks!

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## nutx

Very nice photo..great photo shots.... :Smile:

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## eeeeemo

irwin, do you observe females fighting each other to get into the male's cave?

your current spawn has changed my mind about my very BIG yet useless male in the colony...
maybe, just maybe! he can do it too... ha ha ha

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## celticfish

The females do fight for the "right" to breed.
The ones that can stake out the front or surrounding area of the cave wins!

Every male has a "chance" unless proven to be "unable", "unwilling" or just plain egg eaters.
Just need the patience to give the guy a chance and a half!  :Grin:

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## akoh

With all those flashes ! peeping ! how to perform ?  :Grin:

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## eeeeemo

> With all those flashes ! peeping ! how to perform ?


p*rnstars get pregnant too you know..  :Laughing: 

how do you prove a male to be unwilling or unable..??

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## celticfish

Well, you can always setup a new group where he is the "alpha".
If there is no action for too long or a smaller male starts then its probably "unwilling".
"Unable" is easier to confirm if the male wasn't the largest.
Though sometimes smaller males are more aggressive and "win".
The "problem" with plecos is that we cannot usually observe them fully since they are nocturnal in nature.
Boils down to the fact that you have to observe them and get the "feel" of the fish.
In other words, your experience as a fish keeper!  :Grin: 

You can read all the theories, reports and "how to" manuals avialable.
But its your "skill" or "feel" as a fish keeper that ultimately counts.
Simple test here...
Everyone says if you see a zebra out in the open you can expect trouble.
So why do you think this is so?

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## eeeeemo

ooo quiz~!!

1) it is indeed having trouble... bad water quality, insufficient oxygen, sick etc
2) it is being chased out by others

or it can be
3) it is courting a male
4) it is inspecting the tank
5) it is around cause its feeding time and you on-ed the lights

just set up a new group. very very big male + 1 female + 1 unknown. i suspect the big big male has been hindering the existing alpha from breeding. as about 2 hours after i did the change, the alpha male trapped the alpha female in the old setup. i have harvest the eggs. 2 infertile and roughly 25 developing in the trap. the male might have eaten more as this is actually already day 3. my biggest spawn so far...

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## Jordi

25 eggs is alot! congrats!  :Grin:

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## celticfish

Reply to simple quiz...
They are nocturnal in nature and always hide.
If you see them out in the open, not hiding, it goes against every grain of the basic instinct.
So you can definitely expect trouble!

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## celticfish

The wrigglers are out!
So far 6 survived while one that had an injury on its yoke didnt make it... RIP.
Now let's hope they dont make me wait another 10 months!  :Laughing:

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## Wackytpt

Congrats on your new spawn.. =)

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## Jordi

congrats on the 6 babies!  :Grin:

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## wasabi8888

> Reply to simple quiz...
> They are nocturnal in nature and always hide.
> If you see them out in the open, not hiding, it goes against every grain of the basic instinct.
> So you can definitely expect trouble!


you are right. THe last time I saw my L46 in the open, the next day, it died..

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## Savant

Congrats on the fries...

I think the L46s do come out of the open, but they should run away when you approach... those non reactive ones are a sure sign of trouble...

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## eeeeemo

how do fries get injury on the yoke?
mine is the egg sack break an extremely tiny hole and the yoke squeezes out alittle at a wrong corner(where the head isn't at).

my eggs hatched today too!
27knowneggs, 2 infertile, 1 developed halfway but fungused, 4 sustained egg injury, 1 unable to break out of the shell and died trying, 1 was deformed and died, final count: 18wrigglers.

i think the dads are necessary to help the fries break through the shell...
actually if i hadn't fathered the egg well myself, the sole fungused egg could have destroyed the entire clutch in one night.

you removed the eggs just after they hatch to prevent cannibalism, but you still get injured eggs? does this mean that the father actually see the degree of the egg injury and then decide whether to let it live or not?

my 4 injured eggs, 3 had very severe damage.. like quite a bit of the egg yolk escaped from the wrong end of the egg shell and they died within minutes after they hatch. those with minor damage manage to push on abit more and died while i was at work.

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## celticfish

If only the current alpha's were like Adam... *sigh*...
As I told you before, I'd rather not be zebra daddy!
Lot's of work involve.
I do feel that new dad's need some time before they are steady.
But I empathize with new zebra breeders too.
The $200 dollar per egg question they have is "do you stripe the eggs" or "let dad do what he should"?
After that, its another 3 to 6 months (depending on how desperate you are to release the fish) of "baby-ing" before you put them up for sale.

You can split your group but do you have tank space for grow-out?...

----------


## XnSdVd

Heya Irwin, 

Nice to know you're still in the hobby, very very interesting post =)
Do post some photos of the fry when they're developed. And yes, I'm well on my way to my dream tank.

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## celticfish

Howdy stranger!  :Laughing: 
You've be absent or lurking?  :Grin: 
Photos on the way just shot some today.

If you need an extra pair of hands for that tank, holler!
Will help as best as I can.
And do start a journal on that here too! kekeke

----------


## dauntless

great info and good pics i gonna capture my l46 and take pictures because i ,ve no idea what sexes they are

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## celticfish

Pictures of your fish are a good idea!

After the long and arduous search last year, to replace fish lost from the great blight I'd had been sitting pretty and waiting and waiting and waiting...
The fish were split into 2 x 2ft tanks.
Partly from fear and partly to give two groups a go at breeding.
There are 9 and 6 fish in each tank.

So here is the "slacker" tank setup (no action).



And here with have the "producers" tank setup.


You can see the female on the top right.
The alpha male, obviously, in the below cave of choice.
The Sakura shrimps add a little colour to the dark gravel.
For some reason the ones in these tanks are an intense red.
Those in another tank have some that look transparent to orange with one being almost an ocher yellow.

I'll need to ponder on names for the new pair.
The first brood out is 9 wrigglers.
Cool beans!  :Cool:

----------


## Gecko

> So here is the "slacker" tank setup (no action).


Hey Ir, I have a theory or at least it seems true for me....I noticed that when my sturisoma sp breed, so does the zebs, vice versa. also read something about hormones being released into the water by one species might induce another to spawn...worth trying in a slacker tank.

p.s. Titan was over this morning and found another spawn in my alpha cave...nice for you guys with strong flashlites to come over and help me hunt...I cant find the 3 you saw anymore, lost in the maze. :Embarassed:

----------


## illumnae

it's not just sturisoma. The americans have been using cories to stimulate plecos to breed. I've personally tried using apistos, and I find greater occurance of trapping when my apistos spawn in the tank with my L134s. No eggs yet, but definitely affects trapping

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## celticfish

Gecko,

Best place to hunt for them is the smallest nooks and crannies!
I had thought of that too.
I also think individual fish character plays a part in "compatibility" to pairings.
So that I do believe that a fish that doesn't breed for you may/could breed with someone else's fish.
More picky than "unable" to breed IMHO.
I agree with the idea of hormonal or "scent" released from other fish breeding does lend a hand too.


illumnae,

Yup!
I've got C. hastatus with the zebras.
Everytime I do a water change and feed I see orgies happening before my very eyes!!!  :Shocked: 
Now I'm beginning to wish I was a hastatus in my tank.
Just eat and breed all day!!!  :Laughing: 
My problem is I can't seems to ween the hastatus fry once they finish their yoke sack.
I think I should start another thread to ask for some help from out in-house Corydoras gurus.  :Opps:

----------


## illumnae

ask genes. he's bred/raised hastatus i believe?

----------

