# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk >  Red plant and lighting

## robin

Hi, my red plants are turning green.

Just wondering if lighting has anything to do with it. 

My tank is juwell rekord 120

120 x 45 x 45

PO4 : 0.5
NO3 : 2
PH : 6.8
KH : 5
Tmp 28 celcius
Dosing sera florena once a week 30 ml
co2 3 bps
lighting default lighting 30w
internal filter.

fish load 20 cardinal, 20 harlequin, 4 oto, 2 clown loach, 2 big SAE. 10 malayan shrimp, 10 yamato, 2 golden algae eater.

my tank is here, just added 1 stemmed red plant but new growth is green

[image width=683 height=276]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/258459/tank.jpg[/image]

Appreciate help
Robin

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## chua

Yours is a 4ft tank.
I think 30W for your tank is really too little.
Some of my friends having 2ft tank is already having more than 30W for theirs.
Maybe you can increase your lighting to at least 2W per gal.

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## naturetan

What red plant you have. Is it directly under the lighting? I agree that the lighting is too low.

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## robin

The question for me is, could the green new growth be due to low lighting?

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## Simon

yes robin, it can be yr lights... I use 6x36watts for that size

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## PeterGwee

Mmmmmmmm...from the pic shown, it sure doesn't look like you have only 30W of light. Any typing error? What brand of NO3 test kit are you using?

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## limsteel

How come the bubble counter in the water???

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## PeterGwee

LOL..[ :Grin: ] ..it might be outside the tank as well?

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## naturetan

> ----------------
> On 7/13/2003 4:31:11 PM 
> 
> Mmmmmmmm...from the pic shown, it sure doesn't look like you have only 30W of light. Any typing error? 
> ----------------


Photography can be deceiving at times. All it takes is to overexpose when taking, and you'll get a lighter image. Not to mention the ease of tweaking any digital images to give a brighter look.

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## David

Hi Robin

if your red plants are turning green, it is one sure positive sign of insufficent light. Red plants are red is because under intense lighting condition, the plant 'coats' its leave with pigment to ensure that they do not photosynthesis too much.

If your KH is 5 and your PH is 6.8, you might have insufficient dissolved CO2 as well. One of my tanks have a KH of 8 with the same PH as what your tank is right now.

In my 4x1.5x1.5, the wattage I am running is 6x30watts.

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## robin

wah lau, that bad huh, and yes the bubble counter is in the water coz i got no space at the side. 

If i add another 30w to by 120 litres, it will give me roughly 2wpg right?
Hope that is enough.

Also, i am using a sera test kit like what simon recommended

Robin

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## robin

anyone care to respond?

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## sherchoo

Robin,
With yor tank dimension the water volume is about 189L or 50G. Suggest you either upgrade your lights to at least 4X36W or select other plants that require low lighting. 

With such low lighting, you will have to be careful when increasing your CO2 levels. With insufficient lighting, CO2 uptake will be low.

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## robin

4 x 36watts? is there 36 watts flo tubes?
Anyway, am i right is saying 2 x 30 watts gives my 120L 2 watt per gallon (wpg) ?

Thanks for all your help, i quite blur

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## theodore

> ----------------
> On 7/14/2003 7:24:44 PM 
> 
> Anyway, ... 2 x 30 watts gives my 120L 2 watt per gallon (wpg) ?
> 
> ----------------


Robin,

120 x 45 x 35 (height of JUST water column, not tank) = 189L

How did you get 120L? In any case, 2W/Gal is not sufficient for most, if not all, red plants. If that is really all you can afford for lighting, you will need to position your red plants at the brightest spot to stand a chance of getting them to stay red (assuming they survive).

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## theodore

> ----------------
> 4 x 36watts? is there 36 watts flo tubes?
> ----------------


Check this posting

Moderator,

Is it possible to put the info on PL lighting (provided by bclee in the above posting) in the Aquatic FAQs?

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## David

Robin

If I have to choose between the importance or preference between Light or CO2, I will choice light.

You really got to get the light requirements correct for the type of plants that you are keeping.

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## robin

Sorry, i made a mistake my dimensions are

width =101 cm
depth = 31 cm
height = 46 cm 

Do you think my 2 x 30 w is enough?
anyway, i still quite confused by wpg.

how many wpg am i getting (sorry quite lazy to search around for answer)

Robin

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## sherchoo

> ----------------
> On 7/14/2003 9:16:46 PM 
> 
> Sorry, i made a mistake my dimensions are
> 
> width =101 cm
> depth = 31 cm
> height = 46 cm 
> 
> ...


[101 X 31 X (46-10)]/1000 = 112.7L

112.7/3.78 = 29.8G (US)

60W will give you about 60/29.8 = 2Wpg.

For me I would go for 3wpg since you want your red plants to remain red. To answer whether enough lights or not, it depends how well you want your plants to grow.

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## robin

Thanks Sherchoo! that was very helpful indeed!

Robin

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## jacian

[/quote]

Moderator,

Is it possible to put the info on PL lighting (provided by bclee in the above posting) in the Aquatic FAQs?
----------------
[/quote]

Done  :Smile:

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## robin

Another question,
Will the leaves that has turned green turn back to red under sufficient lighting? and right chemical compositions?

Regards
Robin

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## Cardinal Tetra

hi, i just bought a red plant (lotus?) at the LFS just now. i noticed that some leaves are already turning green. my tank is a 2ft with 1x18W FL + 2x18W FL
should that be ok? i was wondering if the plant would turn red again if given enough light. or do i have no cut off the green leaves?

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## kadios

Other than strong lighting, red plants need additional Iron on top of the usual and basic fertilizer in order to be red. 

Cheers!

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## naturetan

No experience with red lotus plant, so can't comment.

My observation about red stem plants is that it would not be easy for green ones to turn red. But if conditions are right, new growth would be red. Well, you can wait for new growth to see how it goes.

I've seen tank running at very low light with CO2, about 1.5 gal/W, yet its Rotala Macrandra is rosy red! Plants like MM and riccia are growing very green. Not only that, the hairgrass and glosso are creeping everywhere. 

This has become very interesting to me, and I'm still observing the tank ecology. Well, the trick might be placing the lighting directly under the red plants, as suggested in my earlier post. Using PL light, IMO is better for this purpose, since it's generally more intense and penetrative. Sometimes, the wattage of the lights might tell nothing, if it has poor intensity or wavelength for photosynthetic purpose.

However, I don't have a definite answer, and guess we need to experiment more to discover it ourself.

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## Plantbrain

Folks this issue was dicussed for a number of years on the APD.

Lighting plays less of a role than folks think/believe and what many books would have you believe.

What does play the significant role in most red coloir in plants is NO3 levels.

For example, maintain the same light, the same chemical composition.

Then using a good NO3 test measure the NO3 and note the effects of certain red plants.

Most red plants will turn redder at kless than 5ppm of NO3.

Adding a good size dose of KNO3 will green the plant.
Having a few fish/some fish waste will help achieve a lower threshold of NO3 levels since some Nitrogen will be from fish waste in the form of NH4.

But you all can do this yourselves with Rotala species, Ludwigia is also a good plant to work with.

Now if you let the NO3 get too low, then you will stunt your plants and that's far worse than a green plant.........
careful........

Regards, 
Tom Barr

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## robin

I am trying to increase my tank to 3 wpg to see the result.

Cheers

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## Plantbrain

At high light do you believe it would easier or more difficult to maintain a low NO3 level supply and NH4 in the form of fish waste? And why......

Think about uptake rates.

2-3w/gal is plenty for any red plant I've ever had.

More is not better.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

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## robin

I am getting pretty confused now, so is high light good for my red plants so that they remain red or should i go low light so that they will become red ?????

Any lao jiao can comment?

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## kadios

Hi plantbrain!

So can I confirm with you that in your case, 

Lighting was moderate
CO2 and other fertilizers as per normal
Iron and traces as per normal
Low NO3 levels

Normal as in not purposely dosing more Iron or Macro or Micro nutrients in particular. 

Btw, may I know your fertilization regime? Weekly, daily? I presume daily for better control of NO3 right? Top up when used up instead of creating a &amp;quot;reservoir of nutrients&amp;quot; for which the plants can tap from?

Thanks in advance!

Cheers!

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## robin

argh, i am still as confused

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## PeterGwee

As long as lights falls between 2-3W/G, it should redden plants up if K,P,traces, CO2 are kept in good range while allowing the NO3 to fall below 5ppm. Noted that most kits we use are not precise enough for the job and would end up stunting the plants instead if we push it too far. When plants are stunted, that is when algae comes in to attack. [ :Grin: ]

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## bttay

High light is definately necessary for red plant. I have just bought a red plant (yet to find out its name). Initially, only a few leaves were red. When I increased my lighting to 4w per gallon, most of the leaves that face directly to the light bulb turn red.

I think nutrient plays important role. But I have just over fertilized my tank and am having a big algae boom. :Sad:

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## sherchoo

Robin,
Please read plantbrain's first posting carefully and try to understand.

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## bttay

I have a question on Iron supplement. My iron is tested to be between 0.1 to 0.2 ppm. I know that red plant needs more iron. Should I add further iron supplement?

I afraid that overdose of iron might cause manganate deficiency and algae boom.

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## naturetan

Robin,

Tom Barr has stated that having plants growing redder does not really depend on high light, as I've somehow suggested in this previous posting from observation. The relationship between maintaining lower NO3 (&amp;lt;5ppm) and getting redder plants play a more important role.

Inorder to maintain a low NO3 and yet not stunt the plants quickly, lower lighting will be easier to control - since it has slower intake of nutrients. Besides having some fish waste, maintaining NO3 around 1-4ppm will help solved your problem.

Hope this is clear. Try this out and see how it goes.

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## Plantbrain

Okay think about it like this.

More light = more uptake/faster growth.

Higher light often yields redder growth since now the uptake rate is higher nd this lowers the NO3 levels in your tank.

But wait a little while, now you have run out of NO3 and the tank starts to look shabby, lack luster growth, and finally some algae.

Seem familar?

It's like driving a car. The faster you go(speed= light intensity), the more gas you use(gas= nutrients).
If anything goes wrong at higher light, your &amp;quot;crash&amp;quot; will be worse and you'll have more algae problems.

Less light is safer if you miss dosing times or cannot seem to get enough CO2 to reach 25ppm etc. 

So at 1w/L, you are going to need high CO2/enough NO3/PO4/Traces/ to last till the next dosing.

For this light level you need to dose about every 2-3 days and most of the % of Nitrogen assimilated will be NO3.

At 0.40w/L you can likely go a week without dosing and the % of nitrogen that is NH4 will be higher and less of the NO3.

NH4 comes from critter waste etc. 

Adding more fish/critters to supply the plants with Nitrogen causes algae in moderate to high light tanks.

Non CO2 tank grow slow enough that the Nitrogen needs are met solely by fish/critters.

My non CO2 tank had the reddest plants also. 

As far as red plants needing more iron, I doubt there's anything to this.

The red color, is namely from the anthrocyanin. This pigment is thought to be a namely signaling compound for critters/pollinators/UV protection.

There is _no_ iron whatsever in this compound.

It is thought to exist in plants as super molecule bound together in chains be copigments and metal ions, but these happen to be Mg, not Fe(iron).

Plants make many Flavinoids which this chemical belongs to and many other colored pigments(pink, purple, blue etc). 

There are many different products a plant makes along this PAL pathway. The red coloration is one of the last along this &amp;quot;production line&amp;quot; of chemicals and iron's main role is that of enzyme co factors/electron transport.

All plants need these chemicals along this pathway to grow and function. Red doesn't seem to matter much here.

I think the more iron idea came out of red=ferric oxide, rust. Perhaps since more light = more/faster uptake, the idea was the plants needed more iron, which is true but not any more than the green plants, you just couldn't see them change color unlike the red plants.

Now whether you got any of that or not does not matter really. The main thing is to come away with something. You'll gop backj later, months/years etc and get more from it as you go along in this hobby. 

You can try this yourselves and see.
Crank the CO2/add K/PO4/more traces than you think you need, and then add your normal routine of KNO3.

But this time wait a day or two longer and see if the plants redden up. Now add the KNO3, say 1/4teaspoon per 20 gallons, do the plants turn green again?

This works with most color variable species but not all.
Allowing the NO3 to drop down will change the color. 
N limitation can produce less green color in many plants and this allows the red to be seen also.

Too much NO3 you get green plants, too little and you stunt your plants, it's a bit like a drug, there's a fine balance between effective results and killing the patient or not doing anything useful at all.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

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## Fei Miao

It's interesting what Tom said; I had similar experience with my 80 L tank last year, my lights were only 36watts then but my ludwigia repens were really &amp;quot;red&amp;quot;, at that time I thought the low temp. we were experiencing had a part in the reddness...

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## robin

Thanks a lot to plantbrain and everyone who has contributed, somehow I still cannot get my NO3 to drop below 5, seems to be always at 5

Using sera test kit.

Robin

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## Plantbrain

Robin, unless your feeding, adding KNO3, the NO3 should drop. The test kit is always suspicious.

You can see about the NO3 by using your tap water as the gauge. Call them and see how much NO3 is present(likely not much) then do large water changes and add KNO3. The estimated/theoretical NO3 level to that volume of water should be very close to what the test kit shows, if not, ignore the test kit.

Realistically few people test their NO3 daily for years and try to maintain a very close range on their NO3 levels. Too much work and impractical.

What folks do is guess their NO3 needs/uptake rates=&amp;gt;dose accordingly and add/balance the fish load to achieve a good range. Sometimes they over do it and the plants turn green. Sometimes they under do it and the plant stunt. 

But you do a water change and add fresh nutrients back and start again. 

It's easier than testing all the time.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

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## robin

Thanks a lot will try what you suggested but my guess work quite bad so may need to see the plants as a gauge.

Robin

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## PeterGwee

Robin, you using pressurised or DIY CO2? Keeping close tab on CO2 during the initial stages is critical. Letting it loose and it falls below optimal level and you slow plants down. Using plants to judge for level of NO3? Well, just don't overdo it...let it become too red and you risk stunting the plants.

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## robin

okay understood, i using presurre co2. All my other plants super green and also got many BBA and green hair * sigh*. My red plants are turning green but will try to do what was suggested.

Robin

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## naturetan

I suggest you solve your algae issue first, before thinking about getting redder plants. Usually, plants turn red naturally when it grow healthier. It might not work if your nutrients are not in good shape.

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## robin

I have been trying hard to solve my algae problem but to no avail, maybe some kind soul wanna come my place and assist.


Tank Dimensions (LxWxH): 120 x 46 x 31
Tank Volume (litres or gallons): 120 litres
Lighting Intensity(No of Watts) : 2 x 30W
Type of Lighting (FL/PL/MH) : FL
No. of Hours your light is on : 10
CO2 Injection Rate (bps) : 3
Type of CO2 (DIY/Liquid/Tank) : tank
Method of Injection (e.g. Diffusor/Reactor): Reactor ( 3 ball)
Substrate Used : Dennerle Deponit 120 1 tub
How Thick is your base fert : 2-3cm
How thick is your gravel : 5 - 6 cm
Liquid Fertilizers Used : K2so4, Sera Florena, Seachem Phorporus, Seachem Nitrogen
Frequency of fertilization : weekly
Tank Temperature : 27 celcius
Type of Filter (overhead/internal/canister) : internal (default)
Filter media used : Blue sponges, black sponges, cotton
How long has your tank been set up : 8 mths
Other equipment : cooling Fan

Chemical Properties (Fill what you can) 
--------------------------------------- 
Carbonate Hardness (KH): 5
Total Hardness (gH): 5
pH : 6.8
NH4 (ppm): 
NO2 (ppm): 
NO3 (ppm): 5
PO4 (ppm): 0.2
Fe (ppm): 

Bioload (Your Fish and Plants) 
------------------------------ 

24 cardinal tetra
20 Harlequin
2 clown loach
2 big SAE
9 oto
1 golden algae eater
10 Yamato shrimp
17 Malayan Shrimp

My plants see pic
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/258459/tank.jpg

Regards
Robin

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## geoffrey

Your NO3 and PO4 are low. Work on a dosing regime that will maintain your NO3 above 10ppm and PO4 above 0.5ppm. And give your tank about 20ppm of K weekly.

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## robin

now i am even MORE confuse, people telling my to lower no3 and raise no3.

Argh!!

Robin

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## bclee

Lower NO3 you get redness. NO3 too low you get algae.

BC :Wink:

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## kadios

Hi Robin!

I suggest you try out a different fertilization regime. Split it! Instead of weekly, do it daily, or twice a week. This way, you have better control. 

IMO, your water conditions is not optimize, so whilst trying to find out the best course of dosage, the more frequent but lesser dosage regime works to slow down your algae growth by reducing the amount of fertilizers available in the water. But that means your plants will grow slower as well. This is when you start to play around with the dosage regime like the frequency, amount of dosage or the type of fertilizers etc. Monitor the plant and algae growth and adjust accordingly. Best that you keep a record.

Do it slowly but systematically. Easy and fast growing plants may be the best indicator for your little experiment.

Cheers!

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## PeterGwee

PO4 is the one that drives high NO3 uptake when all the other nutrients especially CO2 are met. Keep your pH with 6.7-6.8 during the entire light cycle and not parts of it and monitor for a period of time to make sure it stays there. 

For now, it seems your light is too low! LOL [ :Grin: ] ..1.3W/G? Try to get it up to 2W/G minimum if you want redness.

Quit focusing on the algae and more on plant growth. Algae don't need much nutrients to grow..plants need them..just prune and trim the algae during weekly maintenance and grow plants well.

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## sherchoo

IMO,
Please please increase your lighting. Insufficient lighting will slow your plant uptake and from the rate you're dosing the ferterlizers you'll definately have algae. The key is to have a balance.

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## vinz

Ok Robin, here's some sanity.

First thing is fix your algae problem before worrying about getting the plants red.

Reset you tank... change 50% water per week. Physically remove as much algae as possible.

Get your lights up to at least 2WPG. Raise your NO3 to 10ppm and keep it above 5ppm. PO4 raise to 1ppm and maintain it above 0.5ppm. Meaning: Dose your NO3 to 10ppm, it will get consumed. Dose again before it drops below 5ppm. Dose K to 20ppm once per week after water change. Bring your CO2 up to 20 to 30ppm. For trace fertilisers, split the dose to thrice or twice a week. Reduce your trace ferts as your lights are quite low.

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## naturetan

Robin,

For your tank size, I'm wondering why you're using an internal filter? Are you using the right filtration with the correct flowrate?

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## bclee

I believe Robin is using a Juwel tank that comes with its own internal filter... a pretty powerful one.

BC

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## robin

peter, i am pretty sure i am running 2 wpg.

Anyway, will try to put another 30w fl so that I have 90W fl for my 120 litres (30gallons).

Will see what happens.

Robin

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## vinz

Robin, depends whether you're calculating with tank capacity or actual water volume. 120x46x31cm = 45 gallons tank capacity.

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## geoffrey

> ----------------
> On 7/23/2003 1:04:42 PM 
> 
> peter, i am pretty sure i am running 2 wpg.
> 
> Anyway, will try to put another 30w fl so that I have 90W fl for my 120 litres (30gallons).
> 
> Will see what happens.
> 
> ...


If you are only going to increase light and wait for your algae to go away and get redder plants, it won't happen. You have to work on your fertilising regime (C included) together with the lights. Get you plants to grow and flourish first.

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## robin

Sorry, i got my tank perimters wrong

should be 90 x 45 x 35

anyway, something seems to be restricting the no3 uptake. every end of the week after water change when i test is still 5.
i think i better test the tap water and see if my kit is faulty.

Anyway, what are the common problem which restricts the uptake of no3?
And is excess no3 the culprit that cause green hair like algae and BBA?

Robin

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## geoffrey

anyway, something seems to be restricting the no3 uptake. every end of the week after water change when i test is still 5.
*5ppm before and after water change? NO3 test kits are not very good at lower end of the range. Poor resolution. Having 5ppm can sometime be as good as having zero.*

Anyway, what are the common problem which restricts the uptake of no3?
*I personally feel equilibrating at 5ppm is not a good idea. When NO3 appears to stay at one number doesn't necessarily means uptake is restricted. It means your NO3 input balances your plant's uptake but more than often you should see some movement of ups and downs depending on when you measured. Downs resulting from uptake of your plants and ups from your dosing, leaching and nitro-cycled wastes. A lack of a single nutrient will restrict the uptake of the others. In the case of NO3, a lack of macro is likely, particularly PO4 or CO2.*

And is excess no3 the culprit that cause green hair like algae and BBA?
*Some have really high measured NO3 yet without algae while others have low measured NO3 yet no algae too. What is measured is not important. If you can dose enough for your plant's uptake and still equilibrate at low, fine and good but risky. Similiarly if you dose enough for your plant's uptake but equilibrate at high, fine and good too. Problem occurs only when you don't dose enough and at a low nutrients equilibrium point, that small buffer can be depleted quickly.*

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## PeterGwee

Mmmmmmm..what is your pH just before lights on and lights off for a KH of 5(is your KH stable?). BBA is almost always a CO2 problem..a lack of it or inconsistent. Don't worry about your NO3 (cheapo test kits are junk mostly) for now and get your CO2 proper. Move to the NO3 only if your CO2 is fixed..assuming your kit is correct and you have 5ppm of NO3. Are you dosing K (20-30ppm)? Traces (What type and the amount?)..phosphate (Measured with test kit? or estimated dosing?) 

The key is to do the elimination process...Do in the order of Light, CO2, NO3, K, PO4. Dose enough and things should go well. Your NO3 should drop unless you are overfeeding or overstocking. [ :Grin: ]

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## naturetan

Based on your readings, your PO4 is too low for any NO3 uptake. Low PO4 is likely to cause your tank problem, besides CO2. If I'm not wrong, you should also have lots of spot algae. Think you should refer to Vincent posting for the remedy. 

The test kit is also important. It helps you understand your tank consumption rate so you know how frequent you should dose.

I'm not sure why, my Sera NO3 test kit consistently gave me a valid value, unlike others. If you test your tap water, it is usually 0ppm. When I changed my tank water 50%, it drops somewhere between 0-5ppm. When I dose 8ppm after a day from water change, it gives me a value between 5-10ppm, usually 10ppm. Few days later, it drops to 5ppm or slightly below.

So I don't have any problem with test kit, since it makes sense to me. Perhaps, what is important is to stick to the timing when doing your test. I heard that if you past the 5 mins duration to read the color chart, the reading will go higher! Also remember to shake the solution vigorously to mix. If you're using Tetra Test kit, this might be a problem since the lower range is usually not accurate.

You don't have to worry about algae problem at NO3 going high. Your tank is nutrient deficiency, not abundancy! Use Tom Barr's estimative method to dose if you like, it will nurse back your plants to health. 

Just to add to PeterGwee elimination process, your filtration is also important. Make sure the water circulation is good by having enough flowrate, else plants will have difficulty absorbing nutrients. Also do maintenance if filter is dirty.

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## geoffrey

Tan, could you check and tell us your Sera NO3 kit's manufactured date and expiry date? I am strongly suspecting shelf life affects the reliability of test kits.

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## naturetan

CH6 02 (manufactured date?)
09 07 (expiry date)

Is this the reading? Got this from the bottom of the box.

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## geoffrey

> ----------------
> On 7/24/2003 2:30:00 PM 
> 
> CH6 02 (manufactured date?)
> 09 07 (expiry date)
> 
> Is this the reading? Got this from the bottom of the box.
> 
> ----------------


It's a batch code. I have 2 kits, one expires 05 and the other 07. 05 is a problem, always telling me low NO3. Thanks.

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## PeterGwee

Have you guys try making standard stock solutions using distilled water to test against the kits for consistency? Oh one more thing, did you guys wash the test bottle/cylinder cleanly? Basically, I don't really trust the kit due to its lack of consistency and accuracy. 

Tap water: Measured 0ppm
Dose approximately 5ppm of KNO3 to tap water: Measured 10ppm????
Dose approximately 10ppm of KNO3 to tap water: Measure 20-30ppm????

That is good stuff? [ :Grin: ] ...Sera is good brand for other stuff but the kits are not up to scratch for this purpose though..maybe for extreme high nitrates perharps?

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## robin

Peter, could you explain the elimination process.

Thanks
Robin

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## PeterGwee

Simple....do a checklist and go through it to find the troublemaker.

1)Check CO2 (Is the CO2 level 20-30ppm throughout the entire light period? Do take note of non-carbonate system affecting the KH..peat and some pH up or down stuff comes to mind.)
2)NO3...Check with a test kit for presence of NO3.
3)K aka potassium..(Did you dose K with either K2SO4 or seachem potassium? 20-30ppm range is a good target to aim for. Use Chuck gadd's calculator for dosing with K2SO4.)
4)Traces 8-9ml of Sera Florena 2-3X a week depending on whether growth is good.
5)Phosphate..check for presence with a kit..or do an estimate dose of 1-2ppm dose per week spread out 2-3X per week or one big dose. (This does not cause algae and as long as other nutrients are in placed, it will be uptake at a 10:1 rate with respect to nitrate.)

If anything goes wrong, go back and recheck as per list. Ignore the algae and look for plant growth. Trim and remove algae through weekly maintenance should make them go away once the plants are established and get a foothold on the tank.

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## robin

Sorry for the stupid questions but my question is

Is wpg part of the check list.
meaning is it possible to get a good balance with only 2wpg

My balancing ratio should be P:K:N 1:5:20 ppm right?

and also, people telling me to drop no3 to get plants red but others say more light and 20ppm no3 etc etc. 

Appreciate all you guy's help.

Robin

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## PeterGwee

Enough lights is a thing to check also...NO3, keep it within 5-10ppm for best results. K (20-30ppm).

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## vinz

> ----------------
> On 7/25/2003 1:01:07 AM 
> ...
> 
> and also, people telling me to drop no3 to get plants red but others say more light and 20ppm no3 etc etc. 
> 
> Appreciate all you guy's help.
> 
> Robin
> ----------------


Robin,

Fix your algae problem first then go for redness. It's easier to maintain your NO3 between 5 to 10ppm (in conjunction with balancing the other factors as well) to stablise your tank, get the plants growing well and reduce algae.

Once you have beat the algae, you can try maintaining your NO3 at the lower limits to induce redness. You'll need to be more on top of things, probably having to dose less KNO3 each time, but more often. There's a risk here because if the NO3 slips too low, you might end up with algae problems again.

You need to get more lights because your tank lights is low. Get at least 2WPG (according to tank capacity). Not to induce redness but because your plants need it.

So, the numbers you should be aiming for to beat the algae:
- 5 to 10 ppm NO3.
- 0.5 to 1 ppm PO4.
- 20-30ppm of K.
- at least 2WPG of lights.
- 30ppm CO2.

Don't forget your usual liquid fert.

Regular water change will likely settle any Mg or Ca problems. Don't fix this unless your plants show symptoms. If your plants are not growing too fast, this should not be a problem.

Less confused now?

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## FC

Robin,

Does your plants pearl? No pearlings are sign of (in order of posibility/importance):
1) insufficient light
2) insufficient CO2
3) insufficient oxygen containing nutrients like NO3, SO4, PO4.
4) excess of unconstructive nutrients

Generally, a tank with proper parameter should drive plants to pearl.

IMO, your priority is as follows:
1) reduce your KH from 5 to 2
2) add CO2 to drive the PH to 6.2~6.4
3) increase your light to at least 72 watts, 90 watts is fine.
4) change water 50%, add nutrients 1 ppm PO4, 10 ppm NO3, 3ppm MgSO4, some traces.

Given the above conditions, plants should show improvement within a week.

Note: Try not to use baking soda as KH, if needed, add to increase by just 1 degree. Use coral chips (CaCO3) which will provide both Ca &amp;amp; KH. Place about 30~50g in filter or on the gravel if the KH rises too fast/much.


Regards,

Freddy Chng
www.killies.com

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## bclee

> ----------------
> On 7/25/2003 1:33:56 PM 
> 
> Robin,
> 
> Does your plants pearl? No pearlings are sign of (in order of posibility/importance):
> 1) insufficient light
> 2) insufficient CO2
> 3) insufficient oxygen containing nutrients like NO3, SO4, PO4.
> ...


I think he has just enough lighting about 2W/gal.

BTW, not every tank has to pearl! Lower lighting tank grows as well without pearling. There are many fantastic growing tanks with no pearling.

AND pearling tank does not mean healthy tank... have you seen a algae infested pearling tank (even the algae are pearling!). Trust me it happens.

I don't quite understand your statement: &amp;quot;insufficient oxygen containing nutrients like NO3, SO4, PO4.&amp;quot; 
Why oxygen containing? It is the non-O part plants are going after (N, S &amp;amp; P). Anyway all these get reduced by plants when they are assimilated.

What is your reason behind this statement: &amp;quot;Note: Try not to use baking soda as KH...&amp;quot;

&amp;quot;Use coral chips (CaCO3) which will provide both Ca &amp;amp; KH.&amp;quot;
That's is not the only why nor the best way. Sometimes you do not even need extra Ca.

BC

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## geoffrey

Look Robin, Vinz, FC, NatureTan, BCLee, Pete, myself etc in one way or another have indicated to you that keeping your NO3 and PO4 numbers low to prevent algae is not the solution and is purity pedantic.

No point in dosing excessively &amp;quot;unconstructive nutrients&amp;quot; when there isn't enough macros and stop worrying over the precision of your tank capacity and light. Just get it up to 3wpg, a bit higher or lower won't hurt.

Although you originally posted to find out how to get redder plants, Pete wasn't wrong to suggest lowering NO3 as most of us have read that it may help but I for one have not tried. However, that is only when everything is in order. Later when we found out along the way that you have algae too, and your nutrients levels are low and out of whack, that is when we suggested you improve on your fertilising. I guess that is where you got confused.

You can't get plants to grow redder when they are dying or smothered with algae. Or can you?

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## robin

sorry that i seem to be pissing some people off due to my lack of knowledge.
anyway, thanks for all the advice, I have done all i can and will wait for the result and keep you guys posted.

Raised my light to 3wpg, dosed the correct stuff and ph co2 levels are fine.

And yes my plants are pearling have have been doing so for a long time already, so are my algae.

Robin

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## vinz

Robin,

A bit over-sensitive? I don't think you've pissed anybody off. Don't feel shy to keep posting questions.

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## bclee

> ----------------
> On 7/25/2003 3:21:41 PM 
> 
> sorry that i seem to be pissing some people off due to my lack of knowledge.
> anyway, thanks for all the advice, I have done all i can and will wait for the result and keep you guys posted.
> 
> Raised my light to 3wpg, dosed the correct stuff and ph co2 levels are fine.
> 
> And yes my plants are pearling have have been doing so for a long time already, so are my algae.
> ...


I was much worse than you when I started...

Nobody pissed... *look around*

BC :Wink:

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## geoffrey

No one is pissed. Don't be too sensitive.

Do your own readings, ask if in doubt and we will certainly help.

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## robin

okay, thank you very much and will keep you guys posted on the progress.

Robin

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## geoffrey

If you stay on top of things, we will be expecting good news from you in 2 weeks.... and we will be waiting.

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## PeterGwee

MMMmmmmm...FC, how come you want robin to reduce his KH to 2??? GH is absolutely fine with singapore's tap..don't mess with it unless you know what you are doing. Dosing with just Mg is asking for trouble..you would need to balance it with Ca preferably in a ratio of 4:1. I did read that some people reconstructing GH to bring it higher runs fine for a period but suddenly the plants condition crashes. If you really want the GH, just do more frequent water change and it will solve most problems...Singapore's tap is not pure RO water..don't worry. If algae grows better during the initial period of upping nutrient dosage, it is fine. Just keep up with it and remove the algae during weekly maintenance.

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## geoffrey

BTW, are you aware that you have to remove as much of those algae manually? Use the estimative method some of us here are using. Your parameter looks good with it, good CO2 and most of your nutrients are at low.

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## geoffrey

> ----------------
> On 7/25/2003 4:59:47 PM 
> 
> If you really want the GH, just do more frequent water change and it will solve most problems...Singapore's tap is not pure RO water..don't worry
> 
> ----------------


Pete, that is why some of us, I for one, are doing Mg and Ca, and using Coral. To minimise water change. If I can dose enough of those and get my ratio right and maintain a good tank with minimum water change, why not.

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## PeterGwee

Remember the DOC thingy....you don't like to live in your toilet with all your family members do you? [ :Grin: ]

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## geoffrey

I agree but I am not saying I am not going to do water change. My objective is to do it like 2~3 weeks once.

Plants use dissolved organic carbon too or don't they?

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## PeterGwee

Dissolve organic compound..not carbon.  :Razz:

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## geoffrey

Humic, phenol and other proteins? Not an issue IMO.

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## bclee

err... organic compounds all contain carbon... otherwise they are not organic compounds

BC

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## geoffrey

> ----------------
> On 7/25/2003 5:33:18 PM 
> 
> err... organic compounds all contain carbon... otherwise they are not organic compounds
> 
> BC
> ----------------


Thanks BC, I was about to say that.

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## FC

Robin, BC &amp;amp; PeterGwee,

Generally, pearling indicates plants are, in presence of CO2, NO3, PO4, SO4 and other essential nutrients (both in substrate &amp;amp; water column), given sufficient energy (light, usually more than 0.4 watts per litre) to consume the nutrients exceeding the threshold rate. At or exceeding this rate, plants will break-up the O2 binding nutrients, taking in the cation and expel the excess anion O2, in a fashion that is quick enough to saturate the water with O2 and thereby creating and sustaining the pearling. Nature lends this to supports life under the water.

And this behaviour must be there always, not sometime but all the time, that's the challenge. An easy way out is the no-fuss method that is faithfully preached by Tom Barr to keep the nutrients in check by dosing and resetting weekly. This is the first step towards getting things right.

The next step is to maintain the right parameters within their range. This is where works come in. High tech tank with equipment like PH metering and controlling (by varying CO2 injection timing), substrate heater, chillers &amp;amp; temperature controller, auto fertilisers doser, etc. are tasked to do just that. Again, Tom Barr goes the other way, his primitive but equally effective methodology. Like many here (Geoffrey is one of them), I have a different approach, I prefer to change water fortnightly and replace only 35%. So, there will be more work for me as I have to know more precisely on my plants&#161;&#175; individual nutrients consumption rate. Addition of Ca and Mg therefore also come into picture.

These 2 steps are usually sufficient to keep the plant growing healthily and (thereby) keeping the algae at bay.

The next step is what do you want to have in your set-up, then act/adjust accordingly. Like Robin, he wishes to see red plant being presented red, increased light is one of the parameter to do. Or some wish to grow certain plant well, like Aponogeton Ulvaceus, so then channel water flow there, etc.
And so on.

Low light tank is a different animal. Owner of such tanks chose it, usually, for low maintenance, to keep certain low light plants, certain biotope and/or create calming effect and so on. Growth rate and vibrancy is often not the objective. Such tank&#161;&#175;s plants possess little or no pearling as the water is hardly saturated with O2 with the lack of driving force, namely the light.



Regards,

Freddy Chng
www.Killies.com

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## geoffrey

> ----------------
> On 7/26/2003 12:20:55 AM 
> 
> no pearling as the water is hardly saturated with O2 with the lack of driving force, namely the light.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> ...


...and CO2.... :Wink:

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## robin

okay, going to mantain my tank and will not post until got good news.

Thanks a lot everyone.

Robin

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## Plantbrain

Wow- this started out as a thread for red plants :Smile: 

Robin-do not fear asking any question as long as it's about plants. Often there are others lurking around and reading it and are for ever reason, not posting. They also benefit and feel better there are folks at their level or beyond.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

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## robin

wait, one final question.

can i keep at 2wpg and still achieve chemical balance and get rid of algae. really, that is all the light i can afford right now.

robin

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## robin

hello, anyone wanna give me a last advice before i disappear to try to solve my many problems?

robin

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## naturetan

> ----------------
> On 7/27/2003 10:55:48 PM 
> 
> can i keep at 2wpg and still achieve chemical balance and get rid of algae. really, that is all the light i can afford right now.
> 
> robin
> ----------------


Definitely. As mentioned before, the tank I've seen with 3 X 1.5 X 1.5ft runs at only 72W ( &amp;lt; 2W/gal! ), and have no problem with algae. Plants grow successfully and red.

Though I've no experience with low lighting setup, I would be very eager to experiment with it if I've a chance like you. Balancing your tank requires some knowledge and trial, since most of us here are running at higher lighting. 

However, IMO, I think it's worth your effort if it's successful. Your tank will have lower maintenance than many of us here!  :Wink:

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## robin

Wah lau, if i succeed you can nick name me Mr low light

haha

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## naturetan

Yes, and if so, please scrap off this quote:

*&amp;quot;i always fighting algae but still got more&amp;quot;* 

[ :Grin: ] [ :Grin: ] [ :Grin: ]

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## Plantbrain

2w a gal?
As others have told you, just fine.
That use to be high light and about all you could get over a tank in the &amp;quot;old days&amp;quot;. A few of the nicest tanks I've seen have around this amount.

Look at it this way, more light means faster uptake, more chance of something going wrong if you slack off. If something does go wrong with 2w vs more light, the problem will not be as big/fast with the 2w a gal tank.
Too many assume that more light is better. A balanced light is easier to achieve around 1.5-2.5 w/gal IME/IMO. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr

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## vinz

Tom,

How do you calculate the WPG? Using the tank capacity or actual water volume? Seems to be some confusion in this aspect.

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## robin

WOOOOHOOOO!!
WOOOOOOOHOOOOOO!!

I followed all your procedures except the lighting one and now there is lesser algae (YES!!!). Though it is not completely eradicatted.
My plants are growing fine and bubbling as usual.

However, my red plants are still green. sigh

Robin

Will keep you guys posted.

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## Fei Miao

Robin--
Congrats... you 're gettin there!!

That's what makes this hobby interesting, ...getting the right balance[ :Grin: ] 

My self,.. I'm no good at how many ppm the tank should have and such.. use your eyes to observe how are the plant doing.. :Smile:

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## Plantbrain

I use total gallons.

Folks have critized this old rule but honestly it's never failed me when using PC's or NO FL''s(except on very deep tanks or at min lighting levels).
I've used some deep tanks, 36&amp;quot;, not quite a meter. 
I used around 1.9w/gal, but.........these were Powercompact lights with good reflectors, AHsupply etc. 

With many shallower tanks, NO standard FL's lights work well but on the deeper tanks, the PC's are brighter and seem to punch the light deeper than the NO FL's. 

I've used 54w of PC lighting on a 60cm cube tank and things did well. But if I used say 3x20w, no reflector etc, I don't think that would be enough. 

So it sort of depends. But generally it works fine and folks seldom have really odd shaped deep tanks.

I wish they'd all convert to the metric system though.
Regards, 
Tom Barr

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## vinz

Hehehe... yeah, Tom. Singapore is supposed to be on metric system, but alot of aquaria info we find use gallons.

Anyway, to clear the air for everybody else...
- NO FL is Normal Output fluorescent lights, as opposed to VHO (very high ouput) and HO (high output).
- The FLs we usually find at the shops are NO FLs.
- WPG applies to NO FLs.
- When not stated or implied by context, FLs can be taken to be NO FLs.

Kudos to some quick web-search by Wynx.

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## Plantbrain

20 whacks with a cane for the infidels using that gallon stuff and not metric!  :Smile: 

We were suppose to change over years ago(1970's-1980's etc). Seems that was put on a back burner. I sure would like to see our politicans whacked into changing it over. Then there are those funny Brit units and mariner ship units. I'm surprised we all use the same time scale :Smile:  

Regards, 
Tom Barr

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## robin

After 1.5 years of posting in this thread, now is the time to announce partial success!!

One piece of good news to share with all of you who hav contributed to my algae eradication odyssey. 

The algae are dimnishing now!!. Also, my red plants are getting redder!!

Thanks a lot guys. Will continue learning from all our mutual exchange.

Regards
Robin

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## Fei Miao

Hi robin, how about posting a pic of how the tank looks now  :Smile:

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## robin

Sure, when i get down to taking pictures of it, I will be glad to share my partial success.

Robin

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