# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Catfishes >  Pleco ID Help - Possible Hypancistrus sp. lower Xingu?

## Champ-BKK

Not sure this one Lower Xingu or not?
But i like her. ( thought is Female )

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## johannes

that is a nice specimen!

possible, i recently acquired 5 super nice specimens from the help of a bro here, will take pic to show here, the pattern and marking is very distinct. :Grin: 

hope to breed the new group to see the outcome of the offspring, need to set up another tank, sigh... tired liao... :Smile:

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## celticfish

Champ-BKK,

I've split you post into a new thread.
Your beautiful fish deserves a thread all for itself!  :Grin: 

Just to add, picture coverage of the tail area will help in the ID too.
Pictures that show the full tail of the fish will help greatly.

I'd go along with johannes on the ID for now.
But I'd add that it could very will be an exceptionally white L333 too.

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## Champ-BKK

> that is a nice specimen!
> 
> possible, i recently acquired 5 super nice specimens from the help of a bro here, will take pic to show here, the pattern and marking is very distinct.
> 
> hope to breed the new group to see the outcome of the offspring, need to set up another tank, sigh... tired liao...


Thank you.
Want to breed but still not sure which L?




> Champ-BKK,
> 
> I've split you post into a new thread.
> Your beautiful fish deserves a thread all for itself! 
> 
> Just to add, picture coverage of the tail area will help in the ID too.
> Pictures that show the full tail of the fish will help greatly.
> 
> I'd go along with johannes on the ID for now.
> But I'd add that it could very will be an exceptionally white L333 too.


Thank you.
See here more pics.



and other old pic 5 months ago.

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## johannes

the head seems not as sloped as L333 complex and the tail seems longish.

interesting! :Smile:

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## Gecko

Hypan (Lower Xingu) spp potentially have 5 distinct sp under the complex. This could be one of them...love the twirls...

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## Champ-BKK

> the head seems not as sloped as L333 complex and the tail seems longish.
> 
> interesting!


Hope i can find the nice male to breed. 




> Hypan (Lower Xingu) spp potentially have 5 distinct sp under the complex. This could be one of them...love the twirls...


Thank you. 
Can you clarify more on 5 distinct sp.

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## Cup

It is a 333 group fish. Lower xingu hypancistrines are not necessarily grouped together, so I wouldn't necessarily call them a complex.

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## Champ-BKK

> It is a 333 group fish. Lower xingu hypancistrines are not necessarily grouped together, so I wouldn't necessarily call them a complex.


Thank you Cup.

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## johannes

> It is a 333 group fish. Lower xingu hypancistrines are not necessarily grouped together, so I wouldn't necessarily call them a complex.


can we say L333 complex fish instead?

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## Cup

In a strictly scientific sense, probably. Complexes are composed of organisms that are closely enough related that the line between individual species are blurred, and the habitats are similar difficult to determine. These black and white squiggly fish of the xingu from belo to alta are, imo, a textbook definition of this term.

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## celticfish

Everytime you type more than a sentence, there's a GEM in there!
Enlightening information, as usual, Cup.
Cheers!  :Smile:

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## johannes

> In a strictly scientific sense, probably. Complexes are composed of organisms that are closely enough related that the line between individual species are blurred, and the habitats are similar difficult to determine. These black and white squiggly fish of the xingu from belo to alta are, imo, a textbook definition of this term.


can i say it is as a yes then, scientifically... :Grin:

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## Gecko

> It is a 333 group fish. Lower xingu hypancistrines are not necessarily grouped together, so I wouldn't necessarily call them a complex.





> In a strictly scientific sense, probably. Complexes are composed of organisms that are closely enough related that the line between individual species are blurred, and the habitats are similar difficult to determine. These black and white squiggly fish of the xingu from belo to alta are, imo, a textbook definition of this term.


Cup, I am confused....the definition you provided was exactly the basis of my post....of course from a layman's perspective as opposed to a scientifically recognized complex.

Also have there been a at least speculation of how many possible spp in the 333 group?

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## Cup

Fish labeled as "Lower Xingu" are essentially all the fish that show up below Altamira down to the opening. At least that's what I've heard. This means, most likely, that these are not all members of the same group of fish, necessarily speaking--an assumption which can be further corroborated by photos of these animals.

To deduce how many species there are in the 333 complex, there'd have to be an official designation regarding individual hypancistrus species. Thus far, Most of the described hypans have been from the colombian border. Brazil is still waiting.

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## apistomaster

> Fish labeled as "Lower Xingu" are essentially all the fish that show up below Altamira down to the opening. At least that's what I've heard. This means, most likely, that these are not all members of the same group of fish, necessarily speaking--an assumption which can be further corroborated by photos of these animals.
> 
> To deduce how many species there are in the 333 complex, there'd have to be an official designation regarding individual hypancistrus species. Thus far, Most of the described hypans have been from the colombian border. Brazil is still waiting.


It has only in these last couple years as the Brazilian Hypancistrus export ban has been more strictly enforced than what we now see the most are Colombian Orinoco drainage fish.
Prior to the restrictions a great many Brazilian Hypancistrus spp which are difficult to distinguish from each other have filled the OTF hobby demand.
I breed Brazilian Hypancistrus L333 and they are a very different looking fish and I have had many other lower Xingu spp in the past.
Here are a couple different unusual Brazilian hypancistrus spp that I never could identify with certainty.



I think there is a possibility that the fish shown may be Orinoco Hypancistrus furunculosus.

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## johannes

normally those that are not yellow based and have unusual marking and don't look like the conventional L333 are labeled as _H._ sp Lower xingu.

Esp your last pic, a nice H. sp Lower xingu. They are definitely not _H. furunculus_ L199 as _H. furunculus_ has tail that is similar to L340, L270 and L129 (inwhich the tail is triangular and looks as if not forked at all), the head is flatter as well..

L199 can be easily distinguished from _H._ sp Lower Xingu.

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## apistomaster

H johannes,

I knew my Hypancistrus were Brazilian species. Probably one of the Lower Xingu Hypancistrus spp which frequently are sold as L333. They are not L333 but that is what they were sold as by the vendor.
The consensus was on planetcatfish that the fat fish in the lower photo was Hypancistrus sp Rio Curu&#225;, from near Alenquer, Brazil. Only a few Brazilian Hypancistrus species are managing to be exported as Brazil's IBAMA restrictions on their export has become increasingly effective. Only illegally collected and smuggled out specimens are appearing on the present market. This means that it is very important that those who possess any Brazilian Hypancistrus species should make every effort to breed their fish to help continue their presence in the hobby.
I have noticed that Singapore is something of a hot bed of Hypancistrus breeding which I find encouraging. For so long as the wild imports from Brazil were flowing and the prices were so low, far too many of the fish were sold as single specimens to the majority of hobbyists only to be cut off from any chance of contributing to the gene pool of captive bred specimens. It is very important for us to do our best to become self sufficient breeding our Brazilian Hypancistrus species.

I think the OP's fish is an Orinoco species, Hypancistrus L129, which are very commonly available, reasonably priced and have been described as _Hypancistrus_ _debilittera
_

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## johannes

hi Larry, who is OP?

that is a nice fat female there (last pic)... :Smile:

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## apistomaster

> hi Larry, who is OP?
> 
> that is a nice fat female there (last pic)...


OP=Original Poster.

Yes, that was a fat female but unfortunately it was only one of a kind I received in either a shipment of L66 or L333. When wild Brazilian Hypancistrus were commonly available in the USA it was not unusual to receive other species which resembled what I ordered. I received many L318 and I had 12 L401 instead of what I ordered. I had a bad experience while storing 12 L401 in a plastic garbage can over night. I cleaned the plastic garbage can well and it had only been used for fish. My cleaning lady did not know this and she used it to hold trash one time. Apparently something toxic was absorbed by the plastic and could not be washed off. All of them died by next morning. I really had big plans for them and it is very unlikely I will ever get more.
I did receive a shipment of 10 wild L46, H. zebra this morning. I'm pretty excited but quite a bit poorer.

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## khtee

> OP=Original Poster.
> 
> I did receive a shipment of 10 wild L46, H. zebra this morning. I'm pretty excited but quite a bit poorer.


can share the price for 1 L46 in the states?

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## johannes

> OP=Original Poster.
> 
> Yes, that was a fat female but unfortunately it was only one of a kind I received in either a shipment of L66 or L333. When wild Brazilian Hypancistrus were commonly available in the USA it was not unusual to receive other species which resembled what I ordered. I received many L318 and I had 12 L401 instead of what I ordered. I had a bad experience while storing 12 L401 in a plastic garbage can over night. I cleaned the plastic garbage can well and it had only been used for fish. My cleaning lady did not know this and she used it to hold trash one time. Apparently something toxic was absorbed by the plastic and could not be washed off. All of them died by next morning. I really had big plans for them and it is very unlikely I will ever get more.
> I did receive a shipment of 10 wild L46, H. zebra this morning. I'm pretty excited but quite a bit poorer.


normally we use TS (thread starter) hehe :Grin: 

some lower xingu specimens sometimes can be discovered in L333/L66 shipment as contaminants.

so sorry to hear your loss :Opps:

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## apistomaster

> can share the price for 1 L46 in the states?


A gentleman in California, USA, has brought in a large number of wild caught Hypancistrus zebra. I bought 10 healthy specimens for US$1400.
His advertisement may be found *here*:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/aucti...shp&1252207613
He also advertised them on www.planetcatfish.com and it has caused a great furor over the ethics of selling fish illegally removed from Brazil. However, they are not an endangered species as it is technically defined and he has broken no laws by importing them into the USA or by selling them. It is not just a case of differing values. His prices are about 50&#37; less than those of H.zebra breeders and I think there are very many of the breeders who feel threatened and know they cannot continue to sell their L46 for US$250 to $300 each,who are using the opportunity to impugn this seller. He happens to be a very easy person to do business with. I had my fish in less than 24 hours after beginning the discussions over the details of our transaction. All the fish arrived in good health and I am quite pleased to now have enough to work with. You may read the discussions *here:*
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/v...p?f=24&t=26940
Perhaps starting a separate thread would be appropriate for further discussions?

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## johannes

US$1400 for 10 pieces of approximately 2 inch size fish is appropriate i think :Smile: 

the uniformity in size and quantity could mean that they are captive bred, that's just my thought.

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