# Killies Import > Planted Tanks >  Eleocharis with killies in biotope minitank

## gacp

I am planing a nice mini biotope tank to house my pair of _Austrolebias nigripinnis._ I'll be using what is known here as a "#4 tank" that holds about 10 liters net volume.

I'm planning on using laterite and sand for most of the tank with the exception of a peat-filled spawning plastic container. I plan to grow _Eleocharis minima_ rooted, _Salvinia biloba_ or _S. minima_ floating, and _Ceratophyllum demersum_ all over the tank. Tank is to be kept at room temperature (ca. 20-25 Celsius, higher during the summer), and lighted with about 15-20 W fluorescent (just tri-phosforus). No CO2 addition after the first week or so (yeast method); I reckon peat decomposition will provide plenty of CO2. No filtration but perhaps some aireation to provide gentle water movement.

Animal population, besides _Austrolebias nigripinnis_: a trio of livebearing killie _Cnesterodon decemmacultus_ (they nibble around and I hope they'll clear surface scum), and maybe 1 or 2 ghost shrimps _Paleamonetes argentinus_.

All species are native to the biotope (Pampasic flooded areas), except for the _Eleocharis minima_, but some other Eleocharis does occur---I rather stick to tried aquarium plants for now, I may try the native _Eleocharis_ spp. later.

So, the plan is to use the _Eleocharis minima_ as *background* and (sic, gasp! :P ) and middle ground plant. I have no experience growing this plant, and in fact, not much experience with plants at all. So... can it be done? Suggestions? Should I use another species of _Eleocharis_? Other changes?

Thanks!

----------


## timebomb

Gustavo,

I've not heard of _Eleocharis minima_ so I ran a check on google. I found it's the same as _E. parvulus_, commonly known as Hairgrass. 

Your setup sounds fine. Your water is definitely cold enough for Hairgrass. The problem with this plant is the planting. You have to separate the stalks and plant them apart from each other. A pair of tweezers is an essential tool. It can be back-breaking work but your tank is small so it shouldn't be a big problem. 

With the _Ceratophyllum demersum_, often simply known as Hornwort, it's good to keep in mind that this plant melts if there's a sudden change in water parameters. In other words, if you take this plant and transfer it into another tank or if you make large water changes, the leaves will melt.

I'm puzzled why you are not planning on having filtration. With a small tank, you can use a small sponge filter or even better, a mechanical one which you can hang to the tank on the outside. 

Stephen Hellner who's an expert on SAA's once said in this forum that with the _Simpsonicthys magnificus_, it's important not to use peat moss because the fibres get attached to the gills of the fish, thereby killing them. I don't know if the _A. nigripinnis_ is just as sensitive but it's always good to have a filter in the tank to clear up all the small particles. 

Loh K L

----------


## FC

> I am planing a nice mini biotope tank...
> I reckon peat decomposition will provide plenty of CO2. No filtration but perhaps some aireation to provide gentle water movement.


It is not easy to create a self-balanced eco tank and more so for a 10 litres ones. It is going to be a challenge but I wish to encourage.
Depending on peat decomposition to provide CO2 is not practical as controlling or getting the desire result (naturally) is tough in a small environment. Having said that, the acidic solution from the peat is known to promote good root growth.
In such nano tank, you got to do things in moderation to acheive desired balance. From the amount of peat/laterite/etc nutrient source, to the filtration flow rate and fish load, you ought to be conservative. For such course, you naturally need alot of experiments and wise to start slow.
Filteration and cool water will help in getting the water column excess nutrient in check and (the cool water) slow down metabolism which provide buffer for any in-balance.
Don't be discourage from what I said. Try it out.

----------


## gacp

OK, so far:

_Eleocharis_ spp.: I knew about the synonymy, I thought _E. minima_ Kunth 1837 was the botanically valid name for this plant. (This kind of crap was what drew me away from science; they are not doing their job, and won't let others do it either  :Mad:  ). There are a number of species of _Eleocharis,_ several under cultivation for aquaria. I thought I'd deal with an understood species before I deal with the native ones like _E. bonariensis_, which are an unknown factor.

Yes, thanks Loh K L, I forgot about the hornwort shedding its leaves!!! Hmmm, maybe I should look for another candidate, or keep it at lower densities. Use _Myriophyllum aquaticum_ instead, which is also there?

Small sponge filter: you guys won't believe this, but *you can't get them here*. Worse, you can find local-made ones that just won't work. And no, I am not unable to make one myself, I _have_. The problem is the plastic sponge itself with cell size big enough, which is unobtainable here.  :Mad:  But I will have to find one, you guys are right about the peat. Anyway, I remembered that, while the water itself is stagnant, it is far from quiet much of the time: winds in the Pampas are not a joke, and the water is exposed wide open and ofter very shallow. Also, rain, which is pervading: it rains and dizzles a lot, on and off all day long, for days sometimes, lots of days, and again the water body is exposed. So, no aireation is actually not naturalistic!

_It is not easy to create a self-balanced eco tank and more so for a 10 litres ones._ Boy, is that an understatement. These _biotopes themselves_ aren't ecologically balanced, not only they are far from any equilibrium, they are outright extremely unstable open ecosystems. Nor am I silly enough to try; I wan't just to attempt to recreate a simile of what happens in nature; a more or less stable, yet temporary state of affairs, that will hold long enough for the azulejos (_Austrolebias_ spp.) to live their lives, which is esentially a hit&run operation :P .

CO2: I plan *not* to add it, I simply expect quite a bit will be generated by decomposition in the peat pit, a considerable amount of peat that is given as part of the setup as _Austrolebias_ are the stars of the movie.


Thanks for all the help so far, people, and please, anyone other who can add to the idea, especially those with hands on experience on _Eleocharis_ spp., please do it! 

 :Very Happy:

----------


## timebomb

Gustavo,

I think I can help you with the sponge filters. I was just packing my stuff this morning and I think I have at least 10 that are no longer in use. Let me have your mailing address through email or private message and I'll send a couple to you. 

In return, I wonder if you can send me the _Eleocharis bonariensis_ you mentioned. I've not heard of this plant so I want to try and grow it. Deal?

Loh K L

----------


## gacp

> Gustavo,
> I think I can help you with the sponge filters. I was just packing my stuff this morning and I think I have at least 10 that are no longer in use. Let me have your mailing address through email or private message and I'll send a couple to you. 
> 
> In return, I wonder if you can send me the _Eleocharis bonariensis_ you mentioned. I've not heard of this plant so I want to try and grow it. Deal?
> Loh K L


I take on the deal, but later, OK? After the hornwort decided to do its trick, I decied to go ahead and shell out $10 (pesos, not Usan dollars) for a local POS filter. Oh, the tubing is workable enough, it is the _sponge_ that's bad, and it's not the money, but knowing that I am rewarding someone for producing crap.  :Mad:  

What we need here, we serious hobbyists, is a source of decent open-cell sponge. We are quite a crafty bunch, we can do the rest, but we can't manufacture the stuff ourselves.

Anyway, teh POS filter works, sort of. The azulejos still hang close to the surface from time to time, particularly after feedings, pretty much motionless. I guess it is normal for them. And I will make sure to clean that dammed closed-cell mattress sponge often enough.

I got a trio of local livebearing killies, _Cnesterodon decemmaculatus_, to clean up a little. Cute little fishes! Nothing spectacular colour-wise, but I knew them well and I expected them to stay greyish with dark spots. Well, courting males, at least, turn lemon yellow with black dots. I think most people never give these fishes a fair chance. 

About the _Eleocharis bonariensis_: I've never seen it, yet! Or rather, I most likely *did* see it, but never cared; it is not a conspicuous plant (like, say Sagittaria spp. or Pistia spp.) anyway, just more "grass" under your boots when you got collecting ("charquear" in local parla). But it's listed as one of several _Eleocharis_ spp. to be found around Buenos Aires, along with _E. montana, E. elegans, E. viridans_, and some 10 other. And I do not know whether it will be of any use, or even survive, in aquaria. But I will get some of it soon (maybe next weekend), and see about it. You are welcome to some if you want it. Perhaps we can arrange a multi-person, multi-species "bulk" exchange between Baires (Buenos Aires  :Cool:  ) and Singapore? There are bound to be more people interested at both ends.

Sorry, but all this *must* take lower priority to get a job!  :Mad:  Not surprising, the same peolple who destroyed the country are still making too many decisions around here, like the morons who simply *destroyed* the aquarium hobby here with their moronic greed. Perhaps i should move to Singhapura, after all, har har har :P ?

But don't worry, you&me and more people from Baires and Singapore, we'll be doing lots of _kewl_ things together later, I hope.

Best from the Pampas! 再见 & chaucito  :Very Happy:

----------


## timebomb

Gustavo,

I don't know if a bulk exchange is a good idea. If we send a big box over, chances are it will draw too much attention from the customs and the box will probably be confiscated. I won't mind sending you the sponge filters first. You can take your time to send the _Eleocharis_ to me. I'm not fussy about the species. Any of those you named will be good enough for me.

Loh K L

----------


## nonamethefish

Are you planning on drying out the tank or somehow harvesting the Aust. nigripinnis eggs? I have Eleocharis parvulus growing in my backyard and hornwort so maybe I could put together a biotope.

----------


## gacp

> Are you planning on drying out the tank or somehow harvesting the Aust. nigripinnis eggs? I have Eleocharis parvulus growing in my backyard and hornwort so maybe I could put together a biotope.


No, the azulejos will have their own little "peat pit", a plastic box in a corner. I plan to collect the peat monthly and replace it with new peat.

I will look more carefully on the actual floristic composition of azulejos' biotopes around here, but these are the some of the plants I know occur in local waterbodies, either by personal obs or from books, that could be used in aquaria.

Submersed: _Egeria densa_, _Ceratophyllum_ spp. (2 species), _Myriophyllum_ spp., _Potamogeton_ spp., _Bacopa_ sp., _Ludwigia_ sp., _Cabomba carolinana._

Floating: _Pistia stratiotes_, _Salvinia_ spp,, _Limnobium_ sp., _Eichornia_ crassipes, _Azolla_ spp, Lemnacea, _Hydrocotyle_ sp.

Emersed: _Sagittaria montevidensis_, _Echinodorus_ spp., _Cyperus_ spp,, _Eleocharis_ spp., _Hydrocotyle_ spp.

Again, the only time I collected azulejos (_A. bellottii_) I was looking for other animals (namely, frogs), and the biotope was basically _grass._ under 20 cm of water, beside a major highway in Ezeiza, Greater Buenos Aires. There was a fence wich bisected the biotope, in fact, most of it was inside some athletic club or something like that. Again, the typical biotope for azulejos is _flooded subtropical Neotropical savannah_. I expect the floristical composition, as aquatic plants go, is likely to be somewhat haphazard, a subset from the regional pool of species, changing from location to location and from one year to another according to envirommental conditions and opportunity, Also, given that the places _dry up for months_, a true biotope is mostl likely not feasible, as too many abundant species are flood-tolerant annual grasses and other grasses which grow emersed.


This is the 'home' of the pair I got as a present: 

http://killiclub.elacuarista.com/ima...punta-lara.htm

Similar biotopes: 
http://killiclub.elacuarista.com/imagenes/campana.htm
http://killiclub.elacuarista.com/imagenes/litoral1.htm
http://killiclub.elacuarista.com/imagenes/litoral2.htm

----------


## timebomb

Thanks for the pictures, Gustavo. They are fascinating.

I'm inclined to believe now, that I never had much success with the _Austrolebias_ because of the depth of my tanks. I think my water is too deep. Do you think shallow water would make a difference?

Loh K L

----------


## gacp

> I'm inclined to believe now, that I never had much success with the _Austrolebias_ because of the depth of my tanks. I think my water is too deep. Do you think shallow water would make a difference?
> 
> Loh K L


While I do not know for sure, azulejos are pretty much _always_ found in very shallow water, AFAIK. So it is well worth a try. And azulejos themselves are certanly worth the trouble!

You've heard the phrases "rolling hills" and "ondulated plains". Well, forget those---the land here is flat as a pancake for hundreds of kilometers around, loess sediment hundreds of meters thick. Natural depressions are _very_ shallow and even permanent ponds and lakes are often only a few meters deep at most. Slope is so slight that water takes a long time to decide which way to flow, and often evaporates before making its mind. Also, lots of clay, if I remenber correcltly. Hence, lots of flooded savannah patches, and azulejos in them. Well, you can look at the pictures :P

On the other hand (and remember that I am a newbie killiephile), I heard that a major problem with _Austrolebias_ spp. is *temperature that is too high*. Makes sense; remember that _Austrolebias_ are subtropical fish, and at least the southern species (bellotti, nigripinnis, elongatus, robustus) are born in autumn, breed during winter and spring, and die by summer. Temperatures out there now are about 5-10 C. I keep mine at room temperature, some 20 C  :Confused:  . I expect Singapore will give you trouble on that regard. 


Update on my tank. I got some _Eleocharis vivipara_. Not native, AFAIK, but close enough. They came in a little pot, and look not too well, as they were planted recently (I knew, but this was the only source). They seem to be doing OK. I also got some _Najas_, probably _Najas guadalupensis_, which is not autochtonous, but I fell in love with the plant and I wil use it for a future tank (probably a _Apistogramma commbrae/Rivulus puntatus_-based biotope; there are _Najas_  spp. north of Buenos Aires, but not so far south, and probably not _N. guadalupensis_---once again, close enough for now. I also got some _Salvinia_ sp. as a handout, in horrible condition, but they are coming back fast. The hornwort seem to have decided to behave, and with the red stems it looks very nice. Finally, I got quite a few _Paleamonetes argentinus_ ghost shrimps. I had to buy a whole lot of them, as they are sold as live food; the are very cute, and I don´t want to kill the excess  :Confused:  

As soon as I get enough of the plants for the biotope setup, I plan to redo the tank with substrate (laterite topped by fine gravel and sand topped (inevitably  :Smile:  ) by a little peat, and get rid of the watersprite and Java moss that now are still very prominent (and much needed!).

----------


## primavera

Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 

I would still suggest going for the normal parvula hairgrasses or similar local ones which are smaller. I've grown parvulas, acicularis and 2 australian native hairgrasses (no id), and they are all easy. The native ones are slower growing (probably more of an amphibious species), but parvulas and acicularis are really easy. I find that CO2 initially (first 3 weeks)helps them grow fast into a carpet, then I go non-CO2. I also use laterite with peat moss for bottom, topped with sand. Good luck.

Min

----------


## gacp

> Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 
> 
> Min


Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even _want_ for _Eleocharis_ to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a _flooded grassland_.

BTW: I got some native _Eleocharis_ spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the _Limnobium laevigatum_ I wanted for the tank, and 1 _Lilaeopsis_ sp. and _Hydrocotyle ranunculoides_ (there was _H. leucocephala_, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.

----------


## gacp

> Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 
> 
> Min


Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even _want_ for _Eleocharis_ to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a _flooded grassland_.

BTW: I got some native _Eleocharis_ spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the _Limnobium laevigatum_ I wanted for the tank, and 1 _Lilaeopsis_ sp. and _Hydrocotyle ranunculoides_ (there was _H. leucocephala_, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.

----------


## gacp

> Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 
> 
> Min


Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even _want_ for _Eleocharis_ to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a _flooded grassland_.

BTW: I got some native _Eleocharis_ spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the _Limnobium laevigatum_ I wanted for the tank, and 1 _Lilaeopsis_ sp. and _Hydrocotyle ranunculoides_ (there was _H. leucocephala_, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.

----------


## gacp

double post

----------


## gacp

> Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 
> 
> Min


Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even _want_ for _Eleocharis_ to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a _flooded grassland_.

BTW: I got some native _Eleocharis_ spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the _Limnobium laevigatum_ I wanted for the tank, and 1 _Lilaeopsis_ sp. and _Hydrocotyle ranunculoides_ (there was _H. leucocephala_, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.

----------


## gacp

> Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 
> 
> Min


Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even _want_ for _Eleocharis_ to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a _flooded grassland_.

BTW: I got some native _Eleocharis_ spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the _Limnobium laevigatum_ I wanted for the tank, and 1 _Lilaeopsis_ sp. and _Hydrocotyle ranunculoides_ (there was _H. leucocephala_, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.

----------


## gacp

> Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 
> 
> Min


Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even _want_ for _Eleocharis_ to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a _flooded grassland_.

BTW: I got some native _Eleocharis_ spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the _Limnobium laevigatum_ I wanted for the tank, and 1 _Lilaeopsis_ sp. and _Hydrocotyle ranunculoides_ (there was _H. leucocephala_, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.

----------


## gacp

> Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 
> 
> Min


Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even _want_ for _Eleocharis_ to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a _flooded grassland_.

BTW: I got some native _Eleocharis_ spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the _Limnobium laevigatum_ I wanted for the tank, and 1 _Lilaeopsis_ sp. and _Hydrocotyle ranunculoides_ (there was _H. leucocephala_, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.

----------


## gacp

> Hey Gustavo, I think you should be careful with the E. vivipara. It tends to throw out plantlets at the tips of leaves (viviparous), and sooner or later turns into this big grassy-tangled bush. In your small tank, I don't know if that's too good. Some people like it (look at Amano's big tanks), and I sort of regretted throwing mine away after seeing his tanks with just vivipara as background plants. But you do need a big tank. 
> 
> Min


Thanks for the advice. Probably not an issue, because I fully expect and even _want_ for _Eleocharis_ to fill the tank. I don't want a nice lawn in the foreground, I want a to recreate a _flooded grassland_.

BTW: I got some native _Eleocharis_ spp. today. No idea of the species, and probably more than one. I also got the _Limnobium laevigatum_ I wanted for the tank, and 1 _Lilaeopsis_ sp. and _Hydrocotyle ranunculoides_ (there was _H. leucocephala_, but I only brought home 1 species). Will keep those of you interested, informed on the progress.

----------

