# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Cichlids >  Cheap and good (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)

## benny

Hi guys,

Not all dwarf cichlids are expensive. Some how or another, a lot of folks seem to have the impression that Dwarf Cichlids are expensive, drawing from their pass experiences/contacts with rare apistogrammas.

Here's a species of dwarf cichlid that's great for beginners to start out with and are commonly available in the shops for just a few bucks.


Male specimen


Female specimen

However, do take note that there are some selectively bred long fins species and balloon species. Somehow, I prefer the fish as it is and not the fancy aquarium strains.

From what I can see, _Mikrogeophagus ramirezi_ seem to be relatively easy to spawn too. Anyone care to share their experience?

Cheers,

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## Cacatuoides

i've started off with rams when i first got hooked on planted tanks, they are easy to keep, tolerant to a range of water conditions too......very nice behaviour, they do squabble among themself but they are not agressive at all, they make excelllent community fishes to keep!!

They do spawn very easily but raising the fries is not always the case due to certain reasons......i jus bought 1 male and 2 females from biotope on thursday and yesterday (sat) the pair spawned in the corner of my 2 feet planted tank.....so far they are taking turns to guard the eggs, chasing off any fish or shrimps trying to go near the eggs.....shall see wat happens next???  :Smile:

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## valice

Are there any differences between the Holland ones and the German ones?
Or is it just called as Holland and German due to their breeding places?

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## evolim83

> i've started off with rams when i first got hooked on planted tanks, they are easy to keep, tolerant to a range of water conditions too......very nice behaviour, they do squabble among themself but they are not agressive at all, they make excelllent community fishes to keep!!
> 
> They do spawn very easily but raising the fries is not always the case due to certain reasons......i jus bought 1 male and 2 females from biotope on thursday and yesterday (sat) the pair spawned in the corner of my 2 feet planted tank.....*so far they are taking turns to guard the eggs, chasing off any fish or shrimps trying to go near the eggs*.....shall see wat happens next???


Bro Cacatuoides, you have your rams and shrimps together?
Dun your rams disturb your shrimps at all?
Cos even since I had mine, my shrimp population drop drastically, and I caught the culprit red-handed! :Mad:

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## Quixotic

Hmm... Looks like mine are those selective bred as they have a noticable shorter body and longer fins. One of them has black bands on the pectoral fin, which puzzles me as it doesn't seem to be present on any Googled images I have seen. Pardon the pcture quality.

Attachment 1901

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## brianclaw

Mind if I ask a few questions?
Things that I 've read about them say that they need water temps to be in the 22&#176;C - 26&#176;C range. Is this true?
How fussy are they about the types of food being fed to them? 
Will they leave shrimps alone?
I've not really been able to find this information online, unless I'm looking in the wrong places...

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## Cacatuoides

hmm, just my cents ya....

my rams dun give a damn to the shrimps at all, only gave chase during breeding season when the shrimps go near the eggs......rams mouth are too small to feast on the little shrimps i guess, maybe your rams like to chase your shrimps out of the tank tts why your shrimp pop is getting lower?

rams can tolerate temp from 29 to 27 but they dun realli tolerate a sudden change of temp n environment, better to aclimatise them properly b4 releasing them into ya tank....

as for food, they feed on pellets, flakes, algae wafer, frozen stuff like daphnia, BW, BS, etc...

in conclusion, ever since i started off with rams, i have fallen deeply in love with them till now.....just finish setting up another tank just for these beautiful fellows.....will update pic once i come back from duty on tues nite?? meanwhile you guys enjoy!!  :Smile: 

cheers,
Eman

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## brianclaw

Thanks, Eman. That was very much appreciated.

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## bezz

One question.

I have 3 rams and all of them have that red belly. My Rams have spawned once and I assumed that the 2 rams guarding the eggs are the pair that spawned (they ate the eggs after a few days), so I removed them to another tank on their own. But even since, they have started fighting non-stop for 2 weeks now...

Is this normal behaviour?
When spawning, does the male have a tube from its belly? Because I saw 2 of them with tubes stuck to their bellies when I discover the eggs.

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## ranmasatome

Benny... okay..change my opinion.. not QUITE nice.. but very nice. :Smile:  :Smile: 
i no space liao leh.....haiz..

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## grey_fox

Mine was a bit different. My rams spawned, but only the female was guarding the eggs, chased away the male and any other fishes... but haha the next 2 days, the eggs were wiped out. Suspect my corys where the ones that wiped them out.

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## joe

Very nice speciment and photos benny!!! Check out the pinkish belly of the femal ram ... dats one way to id a female one  :Smile:

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## Justikanz

Gee... I am so tempted now... Can I ask for help in selecting a male and about 3 females from fellow forumers?  :Opps:  Dun think I can tell the difference in the shops... If anyone is going to C328, Ben's etc that has rams (normal body shaped ones), after work and wanna help, can PM me?  :Opps:   :Huh?:  Thanks!  :Smile:

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## valice

C328 only have the balloon and long-fin strain...
Saw it last Friday...
Not sure about Ben's...

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## Justikanz

Hmm... Might go down to Ben's tomorrow after work to look see the rams... Anyone wanna join and help?  :Opps:   :Smile:

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## mickthefish

hi justikanz, a sure fire way of telling the females is the centre spot,
if it has spangles in the spot it's a female.
when i used to breed them i could tell the sexes when they were just over a cm long, thats only if no one meets you at bens.
mick

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## Justikanz

Oh... From the picture, I actually don't see a lot of difference... Lets hope I get help tomorrow... Haha... Thanks, Mick!  :Smile:

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## ranmasatome

Thomas.. i'lll come tomorrow if you want.. i need to check out somethings there to make sure i have all my tanks ready fo CNY>> :Smile:

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## Justikanz

Hmm... I am not sure of the time I can be there... Cos I am thinking of going to Biotope too... Confirm tomorrow lah...  :Smile:  Thanks!  :Smile:

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## Cacatuoides

The ones at Ben's are balloon versions when i was there last week......IMO Biotope has one of the nicest rams around in the market and the price is reasonable too....

I have shifted my 2 pairs of rams to a tank of their own tonite.....lets see if there's any sparks flying soon.....will update again.....

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## yorky

Great to see folks picking up on the normal Ram form!
Personally I find it so much nicer than the balloon rams.

I've kept Rams in the past and it was my first step towards dwarf cichlids.
Hope you folks also move to apistos soon.. hehe..

Benny, as usual, great photography.
While it has good colours, however I do find the specimen a little too gaunt for a Ram.

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## aquarius

Great photography benny!! Rams are really NICE and BEAUTIFUL fishes and are relatively easy to keep.

The only problem is when you get one which you think looks healthy and a few days or a week later die on you. The symtoms are a bit white-tish and slight tearing of the fins which later leads to heavy breathing then  :Knockout:  The frustrating thing about it is it doesn't seem to respond to medication. I've tried the usual greenish/yellowish medicine, methylane blue, melachite green with formalin and still no use.  :Crying:

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## bclee

This was my ram...


A truely beautiful fish to keep...

BC

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## Justikanz

This is not the golden version, is it? But the top of the dorsal is SO red...  :Surprised: 

'Was'... as in dead? Aww... Pretty one...

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## bclee

It is not the golden variant. I had yellowish lights on my tank and I did not do a proper white balance while taking the photo. That's why the photo appeared that way.

"was"... yes, unfortunately, it is not longer with me. :Sad:  

BC

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## Justikanz

:Crying:  My rams died too... I removed 1 body last night and found only 1 swimming in the tank... 1 more missing...  :Sad:

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## SCOPE

Saw the pair of $50 Ram being brought by someone from Eco-culture....
still left a lot of fries inside the empty tank.

What actually is the difference of this expensive one against the normal $2 bunk kind?

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## benny

> Saw the pair of $50 Ram being brought by someone from Eco-culture....
> still left a lot of fries inside the empty tank.
> 
> What actually is the difference of this expensive one against the normal $2 bunk kind?



From what I heard, there are a lot of ram breeders in the world, including USA, Germany, Holland (even eastern europe) and Asia as this is a staple aquarium fish.

The Asian (mostly South East Asia) bred ones are much lower in cost due to geographical proximity as well as lower cost due to lower standard of living. Quaility of mass produced rams are often questionable. Sometimes, you get good stuff, more often than not, they are either lack coloration or are slightly deformed (deformed here does not mean selectively bred balloon or long fin variants). Also take note that most of the local rams are sold as juveniles. The larger ones are either left in the tank for too long or disposed breeding stock.

The European ones are more costly due to higher cost per unit as well as freight charges. Rams from some of these countries are usually of breeding size already. This would also mean that the number of fish per box in a shipment is less, resulting in a higher cost . Color and body form are also quite good (although some, myself included, can't really see the difference unless critically scrutinized).

As such, for the casual aquarist, a S$5 ram is as good as a S$50 one. But for cichlid purists, they would go for color and body form and hence may consider forking out more for them.

Joe, if the Rams at Eco Culture are of good color and body form, you might want to consider taking home the fries.

Cheers,

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## SCOPE

Benny, Thks for your inputs...
However, those fries are too small for transporting i think

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## Cacatuoides

Take no offence but, wats so special abt this pair of $50 rams? i wld rather use this money and get many more nice little rams from biotope....sorry if i've offended anyone.....but rams' prices are quite standardised anyway, the price range isnt tt great anyway.....

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## Cacatuoides

happy news....the pair of rams i bought from biotope has bred!!! kinda happy cos e eggs were hatched on the eve of CNY, quite a nice gift for the new year!! the e eggs have hatched in "wrigglers"? not sure abt the name......lucky tat e parents did not have a feast on them!!! lets see wats next....

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## Cacatuoides

Its been 3 days since the eggs have hatched into wrigglers and this evening when I got home after camp, I was pleasantly greeted by the pair of proud parents together with a cloud of fries swimming close to their parents.....the wrigglers have finally turned into free-swimming fries!!! jus soaked 2 cichlid pellets in a syringe and shook them into a powdery solution before spraying it gently near the cloud of fries to avoid frightening the parents and e fries..... fries are feeding well with them stomachs turning brownish from eating the pellet solution......hope to raise them healthly to a good size.....

cheers!!

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## aquarius

Congratulations! What a way to start the new year!!

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## kray

Congrats!

I started with rams as well, but never had the luck in breeding. In fact, I had problem differentiating females from males.  :Exasperated:

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## Wackytpt

> Its been 3 days since the eggs have hatched into wrigglers and this evening when I got home after camp, I was pleasantly greeted by the pair of proud parents together with a cloud of fries swimming close to their parents.....the wrigglers have finally turned into free-swimming fries!!! jus soaked 2 cichlid pellets in a syringe and shook them into a powdery solution before spraying it gently near the cloud of fries to avoid frightening the parents and e fries..... fries are feeding well with them stomachs turning brownish from eating the pellet solution......hope to raise them healthly to a good size.....
> 
> cheers!!


do you have any other fishes in the tank?

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## mickthefish

looking at the pics of the cultivated fish, it's a far cry from what the wild ones look like, possibly for the better in this case, ive got a few wild rams and they are lacking the brilliance of the cultivars, when i get a decent pic will post it to show the difference for yourselves.
cheers , mick

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## Cacatuoides

there's only white cloud minnows in the tank......looking forward to mick's pics of wild rams!!!

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## mickthefish

here's a wild one , i put it in a small tank for you to have a better look at it,

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## benny

Mick,

Is that _Mikrogeophagus ramirezi_? Or can it be _Mikrogeophagus altispinosus_? The body looks kind of deep.

Cheers,

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## mickthefish

hi benny, it.s the ramirezi, ive also got some wild altispinosus as well and about 250 fry , i prefer them to the rams , they seem to be able to hold their own in a mixed community of medium sized fish.
cheers, mick

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## benny

Thanks Mick,

Well, the stress coloration is really quite dull. I'm sure it will color up when in a more comfortable set up.

Cheers,

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## mickthefish

sorry mate, what you see is all the colour it gets, maybe more yellowish on the shoulder , but see what i mean about the cultivars being more pleasing to the eye.
cheers. mick

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## Cacatuoides

Saw my pair of rams creating a crater in the aquasoil when i got home today..... and they spawned after i had my dinner!! the spawn is rather more, e eggs are spread bigger den a 50cent coin....prob 'bout 50 eggs ba..... e parents are attentively watching over e eggs for now.....kinda excited n stuff cos this's e 3rd spawn from my fishes since CNY, wat a great gift!!!  :Smile:

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## valice

Wow! You have very prolific rams... Congrats on your 3rd spawn... Hope all the previous spawns are doing well...

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## Justikanz

So good... Congrats... I have no luck with rams at all...  :Razz:

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## Cacatuoides

A little update.....

the no. of eggs have decrease by more den half, since this is the 1st time this pair of rams are spawning, i've expected such to happen.....not sure whether they ate the eggs....will just let them gain experience from this spawn, hope they'll do better in e next spawn....  :Smile:

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## benetay

Rams are easy to spawn but the raising of fries can be a little tricky... the total numbers which will reach till maturity might be less then 20, depending on quite a few factors.

Water, food, space, predators,etc...

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## Memnoch

Sorry mate, but whats spangles?




> hi justikanz, a sure fire way of telling the females is the centre spot,
> if it has spangles in the spot it's a female.
> when i used to breed them i could tell the sexes when they were just over a cm long, thats only if no one meets you at bens.
> mick

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