# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Livebearers >  Singapore Long Kang Fish, Wild Guppies/Endlers.

## Bern C

XD Caught some Endlers from a small Long Kang and decided to keep 2 females & 3 males.

----------


## Bern C



----------


## Guppendler

Those are poecilia obscura wild guppy and not endler which is poecilia wingei.

----------


## Bern C

> Those are poecilia obscura wild guppy and not endler which is poecilia wingei.


Oh... I didn't know wild guppy falls in another species. XD I always thought that wild guppy = endlers as they looks alike. ^_^ Many thanks for your enlightenment. 
What are the distinctive feature to differential them?

----------


## Urban Aquaria

With so many people tossing unwanted pet guppies and endlers of different strains and variants into local waterways and longkangs over the decades... i wouldn't be surprised that those fishes already breed and hybridize over hundreds of generations by now. I'd guess it would be a real challenge to differentiate and ID them.  :Very Happy:

----------


## barmby

I tried keeping them alive when I was a kid. it wasn't smooth

----------


## Bern C

XD Then Singapore got it own species of guppies, poecilia Singapura. I actually found them at Bukit Batok at a small drain beside a HDB block. Rarely can find wild guppies anymore. I realize the female wild guppies are so afraid of my tiger endlers.. It was shaking then running away. =_=

Yeah used to catch them when I was a kid.. same as you didn't manage to keep them alive as I was ignorance during that time. @[email protected] My mum also shared with me her experience when she was young and used to catch and keep lots of them.

----------


## Trichopsis

I love our drain guppies; they're usually much hardier than those from the shops, and breed very easily too. These wild-type guppies are usually small-sized, so there are also no issues with adults preying on fry too. I've found that guppies are still common in a number of streams and drains, both in urban and more rural areas, just that they can be very hard to find, unless you climb down into the canal and start swishing around with a large net. In fact, my home setup features a colony of guppies that I caught from drains close to where I live, happily feeding and breeding for several generations.

Aren't our drain guppies the usual _Poecilia reticulat_a, reverted to wild-type morphology? I don't think Endler's (_wingei_) and Oropuche (_obscura_) have been introduced to our waters, or if they have, I doubt they've been released in large enough numbers to hybridise extensively with our introduced guppies. Of course, it's entirely possible that these other two species had been introduced a long time ago, before they were recognised as distinct species from guppies.

By the way, here's the paper describing _Poecilia obscura_, which also features photos of actual wild guppies (_reticulata_) from various parts of their native range in South America.

And more on the different "types" of wild guppies.

----------


## Bern C

Yup.. My mum told me that she used to keep wild guppies in Chinese egg ceramic pot and they keep breeding and breeding that she ended up with few pots. There's no aeration also. She also agrees that nowadays fish from LFS are so fragile. 

I also found that the drain water parameter I found the wild guppies was quite different from the recommend parameter by the LFS/breeders. Ph is 7.2 which is quite ok but the GH is 3 which compare to 10, recommended by LFS/breeders. It seem they are able to accept a range of parameter. Currently I keeping them in GH5 Ph 7.6-7.8. XD They are super super active.

@[email protected] I think as what shifu UA said, differentiating them is a very difficult task. It seem like kinda subjective in differentiating them through their features.

----------


## fireblade

our local wild guppies have dots on the body .. while endler lack of that.
colour wise also somehow is different.

----------


## Guppendler

There are some visible physical traits that could tell apart the 2 species. Obscura has stouter body and fireblade pointed out that body spots are giveaways for wild guppies. The dorsal shape between the 2 are also visibly different in the males especially. More detailed differences will involve fin ray counts which could help distinguish the females between the 2 species

----------


## fireblade

I noticed for females, there are 2 kinds from top view one is round mouth the other is straight mouth what is the species that have round mouth?

----------


## vannel

It's no surprise that the guppies in our local drains are much hardier. They are, afterall, subject to weather conditions and pollution. Water parameters would also fluctuate quite abit when it rains, especially those found in storm drains.

Identification based on captive bred pictures of guppies might not be very accurate since these fish are wild caught and have spent countless generations in a much different habitat. For example, you'd surely expect them to have duller colours to better camouflage themselves, and also to have stockier bodies more suited to the constantly flowing water. These are environmental factors not imposed on captive bred guppies, which might lead to harder identification of the exact subspecies (just like how wild caught fish of other species differ from captive bred specimens).

My 2 cents..

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## Bern C

Yup... I have notice one of the wild caught has stouter body. The section between the dorsal fin & tail is wider unlike Endler with "hour-shape" figure. XD Not really hour-shape but lot slimmer. But the other 2 hard to tell as it's quite slim too.
Oh... the colors patterns also can be used as trait to ID the species? XD I though they are variable between each species?? @[email protected] Still lot to learn about Guppies. Hard for me to tell from the dorsal fin @[email protected]? Any tips? Thanks ^_^

Heya shifu fireblade~~ 
XD Didn't know you are into wild guppies..

----------


## fireblade

Bro Bern C I am not into wild guppies lar but I am into guppies..  :Smile:

----------


## Bern C

> Bro Bern C I am not into wild guppies lar but I am into guppies..


 :Jump for joy:  You should breed a new strain of guppies with wild guppies too. @[email protected] I am still learning about guppies.

----------


## fireblade

if you inbreed a line of guppies long enough, you will see the wild trait coming out...

----------


## Guppendler

The gonopodiums of the males are also different between the 2 species, endler male has a hook like protrusion

----------


## Guppendler

Am amazed this topic generates so much interests

----------


## Bern C

> The gonopodiums of the males are also different between the 2 species, endler male has a hook like protrusion


^_^ Yeah... I started to be able to see the different between the wild guppies and endlers. So endlers are not related to wild guppies?

Let say if I keep interbreed a K class endlers, will I be able to get back a N class endler or back to a wild strain endler?

----------


## Guppendler

Endlers, wild guppies and fanciful guppies are all under the poecilia family, very much related hence could interbreed easily. If one keeps inbreed K class endler I doubt there is any chance you can get a pure N class endler back. You might see some N class traits but never a pure N class

----------


## tetrakid

@BernC

Which lk did you catch themm at? I am keen to try some too. What size net did you use, as I think it is not easy to net them?

----------


## Bern C

> Endlers, wild guppies and fanciful guppies are all under the poecilia family, very much related hence could interbreed easily. If one keeps inbreed K class endler I doubt there is any chance you can get a pure N class endler back. You might see some N class traits but never a pure N class


Oh.. So probably they are related many many many years back but after "evolution" they become what they are?
XD I was thinking if keep using a few strain of eg. K class black bar endlers for interbreeding will they go back to wild strain or N class. @[email protected] Not even near to N class??
So N class endlers will be rare as I heard they almost extincted due people dumping livebears into streams and rivers. 





> @BernC
> 
> Which lk did you catch themm at? I am keen to try some too. What size net did you use, as I think it is not easy to net them?


XD shifu Ted, you are interested in wild guppies too. Net size not more than 15cm. Actually quite easy cos the drain is very small only and lot of guppies in that stretch of drain. I used 2 nets to catch them, one for chasing them. I think it will be better to PM you the location for conservation purposes?? XD But I think there's no threat right as they are consider invasive species.
Last year I went to cedar estate famous guppy spot, it got fenced up.. =(

----------


## vannel

Endlers and guppies are related species and freely interbreed, although endlers are typically smaller. It's similar to shrimps I suppose.. Like how a yellow neocaridina can interbreed with a red neocaridina.

Fancy guppies are just products of very specific line breeding to achieve a specific geno or phenotype. For example, its believed that the snakeskin guppies were derived from endlers hybridized to guppies.

Each time you mix strains, you are actually tossing a coin and pitting genes against each other to see which gene is transferred and then, which gene from each parent is more dominant. Then, its the dominant genes that are reflected as the phenotype. The thing about genes is that, given a community tank of varying strains, you'd most likely end up with the so-called wild phenotype after many generations as the wild phenotype is typically going to be the most dominant gene. The simplest example of this is probably from their base colour (of which grey, the colour you see on wild caught guppies, is going to be the most dominant).

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

----------


## tetrakid

I bought some metallic blue/green guppies which are all male and have been looking around to find some female blue/green guppies to build a future colony, as I only like that color of guppies and not others.

Bros pse let me know if you come across lfs selling such females.

----------


## fireblade

Do u mean Moscow blue green? ?

----------


## Guppendler

> Oh.. So probably they are related many many many years back but after "evolution" they become what they are?
> XD I was thinking if keep using a few strain of eg. K class black bar endlers for interbreeding will they go back to wild strain or N class. @[email protected] Not even near to N class??
> So N class endlers will be rare as I heard they almost extincted due people dumping livebears into streams and rivers
> =(


Not probably, they are indeed related. There's good reasons why N-class endlers are favored primarily because they are pure with their unique wild traits. N-class endlers will become rare more due to their natural habitat being destroyed pretty rapidly.

----------


## Guppendler

> Endlers and guppies are related species and freely interbreed, although endlers are typically smaller. It's similar to shrimps I suppose.. Like how a yellow neocaridina can interbreed with a red neocaridina.
> 
> Fancy guppies are just products of very specific line breeding to achieve a specific geno or phenotype. For example, its believed that the snakeskin guppies were derived from endlers hybridized to guppies.
> 
> Each time you mix strains, you are actually tossing a coin and pitting genes against each other to see which gene is transferred and then, which gene from each parent is more dominant. Then, its the dominant genes that are reflected as the phenotype. The thing about genes is that, given a community tank of varying strains, you'd most likely end up with the so-called wild phenotype after many generations as the wild phenotype is typically going to be the most dominant gene. The simplest example of this is probably from their base colour (of which grey, the colour you see on wild caught guppies, is going to be the most dominant).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Very nice explanation Vannel !

----------


## vannel

Thanks. Last time when I was breeding guppies, I specifically wanted to create my own strain from scratch. Hence, I did a good amount of reading into genetics, specifically relating to guppies. Even till now, my knowledge is nowhere near some of the old birds in the Singapore guppy scene.

Has anyone seen blonde base, glass belly full reds around? I created a line of those some years back and sold it cheaply to a few bros. Wonder if anyone line bred it.. I'd love to buy back some of my glass bellies!

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

----------


## tetrakid

> Do u mean Moscow blue green? ?


Yes yes yes... if I can get female Moscow Blue or Blue/green, it would be nice. Actually as long as it is metallic blue will be nice.  :Smile:

----------


## Guppendler

> Thanks. Last time when I was breeding guppies, I specifically wanted to create my own strain from scratch. Hence, I did a good amount of reading into genetics, specifically relating to guppies. Even till now, my knowledge is nowhere near some of the old birds in the Singapore guppy scene.
> 
> Has anyone seen blonde base, glass belly full reds around? I created a line of those some years back and sold it cheaply to a few bros. Wonder if anyone line bred it.. I'd love to buy back some of my glass bellies!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Am doing my own hybridisations with endler and guppy, been fun and I hope someday I could create interesting strains to call my own. Think C328 used to sell glass bellied males but I don't think they are still doing that of recent late any more

----------


## sixhunter

> Am doing my own hybridisations with endler and guppy, been fun and I hope someday I could create interesting strains to call my own. Think C328 used to sell glass bellied males but I don't think they are still doing that of recent late any more


im sure you will be able to achieve with time to come  :Smile:  cheers  :Grin:

----------


## tetrakid

> Yes yes yes... if I can get female Moscow Blue or Blue/green, it would be nice. Actually as long as it is metallic blue will be nice.


I may pop in at C328 some time to check. My male guppies have metallic green at the upper body top and blue and black on the rest of the body.

Do you think I will find it there? Do they sell individual females? I don't want to spend 30 bucks for a set as I am quite broke these days. Also, I am not a serious breeder  :Smile: 

Any advice/tips from bros here?

----------


## Bern C

> Endlers and guppies are related species and freely interbreed, although endlers are typically smaller. It's similar to shrimps I suppose.. Like how a yellow neocaridina can interbreed with a red neocaridina.
> 
> Fancy guppies are just products of very specific line breeding to achieve a specific geno or phenotype. For example, its believed that the snakeskin guppies were derived from endlers hybridized to guppies.
> 
> Each time you mix strains, you are actually tossing a coin and pitting genes against each other to see which gene is transferred and then, which gene from each parent is more dominant. Then, its the dominant genes that are reflected as the phenotype. The thing about genes is that, given a community tank of varying strains, you'd most likely end up with the so-called wild phenotype after many generations as the wild phenotype is typically going to be the most dominant gene. The simplest example of this is probably from their base colour (of which grey, the colour you see on wild caught guppies, is going to be the most dominant).
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


^_^ Many thanks for your explanation. I think I also found my answer from wiki though not sure how accurate is the source. 
"According to Stan Shubel, the author of _Aquarium Care for Fancy Guppies_, the Endler guppy is, in fact, not a separate species; it has the same genetic makeup as the common guppy, yet is given its own name, _Poecilia wingei_, for conservation purposes. However, in 2009 S. Schories, M. K. Meyer and M. Schartl published on the basis of molecular data that _Poecilia wingei_ is a separated taxon from _P. reticulata_ and _P. obscura_.[1] Because of this, their taxonomy is greatly controversial."

Yup.. I understand they are of the same genus or probably relative. Eg. like Aedes mosquito, the 2 common spp. are aegyptic and albopictus. They came from the same genus but actually quite different in some way, not just only their phenotype but also their feeding patterns & behaviors, that they are classified into different species. It's probably due to the environment and many years of adaptation that they gain and lose certain genetic traits that they can't revert back.
Actually I wanna know if endlers and wild guppies are related as in the same species or a varaint due to the genotypes. Though It seem that the relation between endlers and wild guppies seem controversy. But I starts to see they are of different species due to their physical traits and some behavior. As the source stated endler can have the same genectic make up of common guppies but probably there're genectic differences that they can no longer revert back to a wild guppies or its origin lineage. They created their own unique traits that others Poecilias don't share. What I am interested is the wild traits of the endlers. The N classes are their wild traits?? XD Which N classes?
I think shrimp will be much easier to understand compare to guppies. @[email protected] Guppy has many combinition of genotypes that create so many variants. With interbreeding, it's confusing to determine if it's variant or species.

----------


## vannel

The whole study of Guppy genes are still very much disputed and a few major schools of thought exist.. When you do start dabbling in their genetics, you'll gain alot of insight into how to "design" your own strain. That's to say, you are breeding with a specific goal instead of just via trial and error.

With N class endlers, I do believe those are classified based specifically on the fact that they are wild caught and line bred very strictly within their own class. Once they are bred "down", there's just no way it'll be N class again since no one can say the offspring did not inherit some recessive gene that's just not exhibited (even if the phenotype matches what a typical N class endler would look like)..

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## Bern C

> The whole study of Guppy genes are still very much disputed and a few major schools of thought exist.. When you do start dabbling in their genetics, you'll gain alot of insight into how to "design" your own strain. That's to say, you are breeding with a specific goal instead of just via trial and error.
> 
> With N class endlers, I do believe those are classified based specifically on the fact that they are wild caught and line bred very strictly within their own class. Once they are bred "down", there's just no way it'll be N class again since no one can say the offspring did not inherit some recessive gene that's just not exhibited (even if the phenotype matches what a typical N class endler would look like)..
> 
> Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk


Yup.. @[email protected] Genetics is a whole new level for me, still looking into it. It's just like a scientist trying to create a new species through genetic mutation and thought that he succeeded as he changed the phenotype of the species, eg. the colors. But later found out that he failed as the species next generations of offspring revert back after a few breeding with the original species.

Yeah.. I found Endlers very interesting as different strain of Endlers able to survive and maintain their strains. Even with a few more generation of selective breeding, ie select the offspring of those that exhibit pure class dominant genes, we won't be able to get a pure class or 99% pure class?
Simple eg, like red ramhorn snails that has recessive genes so 1/2 of their offspring will be the normal brown snails. By breeding the red offspring, the next generation will have lower % of brown?? So on and on till I only have red offspring?? @[email protected]

----------


## vannel

Hmm.. Genetics is a long topic and I'm no guru, so correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone.

When you breed 2 guppies, the offspring takes a single gene from each parent (its way more complex than just a gene, but to simplify the explanation..). So then, what happens is you have a matrix of possibilities..

Parent 1: Ab (assuming A is dominant gene, b is recessive gene)
Parent 2: Ab

Offspring Matrix:
25% - AA (looks same as parents)
50% - Ab (looks same as parents)
25% - bb (shows recessive trait)

This matrix is because a gene is taken from each parent.. The 50% is due to Ab being the same as bA (hence, 25% + 25%).

From then on, if the recessive trait is what you are after, the next filial generation (P2) will always give you recessive phenotypes because:

Parent 1: bb
Parent 2: bb

Offspring Matrix:
100% - bb

Because both genes from both parents are recessive.

So to answer your question, if it were just simple genetics and only 1 gene determined the specific phenotype of the snail's colour, then, you would get 100% red snails if you bred 2 red snails together.

Of course, if it wasn't just a simple matrix (like some super genes that always override, and some that actually depend on other genes, or some genes that are either X-linked or X-linked, etc), you'd be expecting different results.

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## sixhunter

> Hmm.. Genetics is a long topic and I'm no guru, so correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone.
> 
> When you breed 2 guppies, the offspring takes a single gene from each parent (its way more complex than just a gene, but to simplify the explanation..). So then, what happens is you have a matrix of possibilities..
> 
> Parent 1: Ab (assuming A is dominant gene, b is recessive gene)
> Parent 2: Ab
> 
> Offspring Matrix:
> 25% - AA (looks same as parents)
> ...


thanks for the sharing, so if we were to get the phenotype we desired, would that be the dominant gene in each parent ? meaning we are trying to get all the AA, so parent 1 + 2 (both AA) then will result in a stable line of future AA offsprings ?

would like to ask how do i try to hybrid two phenotypes together, example - a pattern + coloration.

----------


## vannel

I failed to mention that uppercase means the gene is dominant. Lowercase means recessive.

Therefore, gene A will always be exhibited regardless of the other gene (ie AA or Ab or bA). Recessive genes are the interesting ones. The only way for a recessive trait (for example, albino) to be exhibited is when both inherited genes are recessive (bb). It does not mean its dominant.

To be clear, if you want AA, then the only way to be sure is to use parents that are both AA. However, if its just the phenotype, you would also be fine using AA x Ab/bA since a dominant A gene will definitely be inherited from the 1st parent.

To create a new strain from 2 different ones, you'll need to know what overrides what. Many genes can coexist because they are not paired on the same "location" on the DNA. Each kind of gene describes a different feature of the fish. Only when they clash on the same level will dominance come into play. Example, a gene that is for base colour is not more dominant than a gene that is for tail shape.

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## vannel

Actually, wikipedia has a much, much better explanation and example of this "matrix" or properly known as the Punnett Square.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## sixhunter

> Actually, wikipedia has a much, much better explanation and example of this "matrix" or properly known as the Punnett Square.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square
> 
> Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk


thanks so much for your sharing, will go read up abit more. Interesting little fishes hehe

----------


## vannel

No problem bro.. I hope my info is accurate and will help you towards designing your own strain in future.

Keeping guppies or endlers is not too hard, but, designing your own strain requires a lot of know-how and dedication. Not to mention the tanks needed for line breeding a single strain!

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## sixhunter

> No problem bro.. I hope my info is accurate and will help you towards designing your own strain in future.
> 
> Keeping guppies or endlers is not too hard, but, designing your own strain requires a lot of know-how and dedication. Not to mention the tanks needed for line breeding a single strain!
> 
> Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk


yes i agree with that part, the need for space/tanks haha. Recently i just started setting up a bunch of those plastic tanks with simple air sponge filters. Keeping about 8 pieces and below for each tank. they are doing alright and breeding steadily now. Probably would like to slowly learn how to line/selective breed for certain traits i fancy.  :Angel:

----------


## Bern C

> Hmm.. Genetics is a long topic and I'm no guru, so correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone.
> 
> When you breed 2 guppies, the offspring takes a single gene from each parent (its way more complex than just a gene, but to simplify the explanation..). So then, what happens is you have a matrix of possibilities..
> 
> Parent 1: Ab (assuming A is dominant gene, b is recessive gene)
> Parent 2: Ab
> 
> Offspring Matrix:
> 25% - AA (looks same as parents)
> ...





> I failed to mention that uppercase means the gene is dominant. Lowercase means recessive.
> 
> Therefore, gene A will always be exhibited regardless of the other gene (ie AA or Ab or bA). Recessive genes are the interesting ones. The only way for a recessive trait (for example, albino) to be exhibited is when both inherited genes are recessive (bb). It does not mean its dominant.
> 
> To be clear, if you want AA, then the only way to be sure is to use parents that are both AA. However, if its just the phenotype, you would also be fine using AA x Ab/bA since a dominant A gene will definitely be inherited from the 1st parent.
> 
> To create a new strain from 2 different ones, you'll need to know what overrides what. Many genes can coexist because they are not paired on the same "location" on the DNA. Each kind of gene describes a different feature of the fish. Only when they clash on the same level will dominance come into play. Example, a gene that is for base colour is not more dominant than a gene that is for tail shape.
> 
> Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk


^_^ Thanks for your valuable explanation. I think I have found my answer on AdrainHD site and I was also confused with N class and wild endlers. I just realize that N class only means pure or real endlers. N class doesn't tell if the strain comes from the wild or not.

Here's the site: http://www.swampriveraquatics.com/index.html
"All The Wild Stock Endlers Livebearer Strains (Poecilia Wingei) in These pics have been Developed & introduced to the hobby by ( AdrianHD ) from Wild collected Specimens.These strains are the result of Careful  Selection, Patience and knowledge of Genetics in regards to Wild Endlers.These strains produce alike offspring with slight variations of same wild type. I Regularly Add New Fresh blood from Specific Wild populations that I maintain. By adding this Fresh New blood , Vigor, Fertility and the Vibrant coloration Endlers livebearer are known for are Enhance to that of wild fish."

This leads me to think that actually it might be possible to turn a hybrid back to "pure" if one have the knowledge of identify the traits between guppy and endler, and also genectics. By keep adding the traits of endlers into the hybrid gene pool and culling the offspring with guppy traits. But it will take many generation. @[email protected] So not really worth doing it as even succeeded, it might still contain a small % of guppy gene but I don't anybody can tell from their appearance.

----------


## vannel

Yes, that's right. Because you'll really never know if a Guppy gene is recessive because it isn't exhibited. So then, it might look exactly like a wild or pure endler, but its full of recessive Guppy genes.

I would probably even go so far as to say its statistically impossible.

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## Bern C

> Yes, that's right. Because you'll really never know if a Guppy gene is recessive because it isn't exhibited. So then, it might look exactly like a wild or pure endler, but its full of recessive Guppy genes.
> 
> I would probably even go so far as to say its statistically impossible.
> 
> Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk


 :Shocked:  OIC... The pool of guppy gene won't get diluted by the endlers gene??

BTW how to maintain a new strain of guppies?? Any way to prevent the undesired recessive traits from appearing in the offspring?? Let say I just created a new strain, so I just keep inbreed them?? @[email protected]

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> OIC... The pool of guppy gene won't get diluted by the endlers gene??
> 
> BTW how to maintain a new strain of guppies?? Any way to prevent the undesired recessive traits from appearing in the offspring?? Let say I just created a new strain, so I just keep inbreed them?? @[email protected]


Yeah, line breeding a new strain involves many many generations of culling, selecting and inbreeding to enhance selected traits... the constant inbreeding makes each generation become less and less hardy with higher chances of deformities and lower immune systems. Thats why those heavily line bred variants look nice, but tend to be much more difficult to keep.

----------


## vannel

Line breeding is alot of dedication. I think I remember the minimum for each strain is recommended to be around 6 tanks.

It should be clear that line breeding is NOT inbreeding. Do Google on the topic for a better explanation and the difference. In short, however, line breeding is actually keeping parallel lines of the same strain (sibling F1 generation from the same P0) and occasionally crossing the 2 lines against each other when needed. What this hopes to achieve is a consistent ancestral geneotype that does not suffer from overly enforced inbreeding, leading to deformities, lower fry survivability, undesirable head to body ratio, etc. Why this works is because, after a few filial generations of inbreeding within the line, you'll start noticing what's known as inbreeding depression that can be easily mitigated through even minor genetic differences (minor, so that we retain most of the desired genotype.. that's your parallel line).

So then, from your original 2 specimens:
P0 -> F1a + F1b

And you would expect to need to inbreed within each F1 (a and b) line so that they never cross until absolutely needed (depending on strains, most people agree around 4-5 filial generations before crossing a pair).. Meaning:
F5a x F5b -> F6a + F6b

Which would then diversify the gene pool ever so slightly to reduce or prevent inbreeding depression.

So, imagine you have 2 tanks for 2 adult pairs + 2 tanks for grow outs for each line + 2 more for fry. So then, 6 tanks, excluding if you have a big one for culls as a community tank, etc..

I hope your interest is not in recessive type genes, because those probably require more tanks. Even worse, snakeskin strains, for example, where the snakeskin gene is Y-linked and only passes from father to son. Well, you get the idea now I hope.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

----------


## Bern C

> Yeah, line breeding a new strain involves many many generations of culling, selecting and inbreeding to enhance selected traits... the constant inbreeding makes each generation become less and less hardy with higher chances of deformities and lower immune systems. Thats why those heavily line bred variants look nice, but tend to be much more difficult to keep.





> Line breeding is alot of dedication. I think I remember the minimum for each strain is recommended to be around 6 tanks.
> 
> It should be clear that line breeding is NOT inbreeding. Do Google on the topic for a better explanation and the difference. In short, however, line breeding is actually keeping parallel lines of the same strain (sibling F1 generation from the same P0) and occasionally crossing the 2 lines against each other when needed. What this hopes to achieve is a consistent ancestral geneotype that does not suffer from overly enforced inbreeding, leading to deformities, lower fry survivability, undesirable head to body ratio, etc. Why this works is because, after a few filial generations of inbreeding within the line, you'll start noticing what's known as inbreeding depression that can be easily mitigated through even minor genetic differences (minor, so that we retain most of the desired genotype.. that's your parallel line).
> 
> So then, from your original 2 specimens:
> P0 -> F1a + F1b
> 
> And you would expect to need to inbreed within each F1 (a and b) line so that they never cross until absolutely needed (depending on strains, most people agree around 4-5 filial generations before crossing a pair).. Meaning:
> F5a x F5b -> F6a + F6b
> ...


Many many thanks for shifus UA & Vannel explanation. Genetics and breeding are very interesting. ^_^ That is partially why AdrainHD will widen the genes pool by keep adding new blood/gene into the gene pool??
How about trio linebreeding??

 :Shocked:  So the snakeskin gene is Y-linked. So what is the % of offsprings will exhibit the Y-linked traits? Let say we have an affected father, will all the male offsprings exhibit the Y-linked traits?? Or 50% of the males will be recessive carrier and 25% will exhibit the Y-linked traits?

----------


## vannel

Indeed, you could easily expand your guppy's gene pool with externally sourced fish. This, however, is a very risky move as you are unsure of the lineage of the fish and it could introduce alot of unwanted traits. Keeping guppies is all about lineage and you surely wouldn't want to taint years and years of line breeding with another fish bought from other breeders (unless there's something you want from it specifically).


This was taken off guppychicago.org..

SNAKESKIN, by definition, is any male guppy that has an unbroken rosetta pattern covering at least 60% of the body.* Females show no snakeskin pattern.* The gene for the snakeskin trait can be on the y-chromosome (passed from father to sons) or on the x-chromosome (passed from mother to sons).* The only way to determine where the gene lies is to outcross to a non-snakeskin strain and check the f-1 males for the pattern.

So there. I only mentioned Y-linked SS gene but there's also an X-linked SS gene. Some half-black genes are also only passed from 1 parent only.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

----------


## Bern C

OIC.. I was thinking like maybe can try crossing with the strain that is closely resemble the new strain, like the strain used to create the new strain. More like a partial reset and start selective breeding again. Maybe can do this like quite a few generation later?

@[email protected] It sounds like autosomal or non-sex linked?? I thought a gene can only be X or Y linked?? If it can be both way, then it's impossible to tell if it's X or Y linked if the male has that gene in both X & Y chromosome. Unless the gene in Y chromosome is a dominant gene, then we able to tell it's a Y linked gene as all the male offspring will have that trait. Then for the female, maybe can apply the X linked theory to find which females have the dominant genes? Like what is mentioned by outcrossing all the female to a non-related strain??

Unless Y-linked and X-linked genes are 2 different genes that are not related?? @[email protected] Confused.

----------


## vannel

Actually, your last statement is right.

Most genes exist on both chromosomes (or rather, can exist). For example, a gene that determines the base colour of the fish will affect both males and females. However, the snakeskin gene has 2 variants according to some. 1 is a Y-linked snakeskin gene (which I believe is more common), and another is X-linked (I'm not certain I've seen these).

In any case, I couldn't tell you if the data is accurate. The best thing to do is to trial and error some combinations till you understand your own strain. If the offspring turns out as expected, then good. Else, you've got a more complicated gene pool than you expected.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

----------


## Bern C

OIC... Yeah... If the 2 sex linked variants are related ie. like allele where they are able to cancel/dominate each other, then I really unable to comprehend the logic behind it. The autosomal chromosome is easy to understand as it's not sex linked so the traits gene can be found in both parents. But for sex linked, the male will show the traits of both mother and father as male is make up of X & Y chromosomes, so if a gene/allele can be on X & Y chromosomes, it's no different from autosomal and the X-linked theory won't works on it so how are they able to know if the gene is X-linked or Y-linked or both? @[email protected]?

I have tried to make a X-linked & Y linked recessive snakeskin chart, the genotype for father & mother is X(s)Y(s) & X(S)X(s). The father can only pass the Y chromosome to the male so all the male offspring must have a small "s". On the F1(1st gen), I will have 4 types of combination, X(S)Y(s), X(s)Y(s), X(s)X(S),X(s)X(s). 1 male & 1 female will be affected by snakeskin trait. Let assume that female guppy lack of color pigmentation so can't show the snakeskin patterns. As I expended the chart by mating the offspring to some affected and some carriers to created the F2, F3 & F4. Before creating F4, I realized that the X-linked & Y linked recessive can end up able to fit into autosomal dominant rule. After I expend 1 more generation then I concluded that the it's a X-linked & Y-linked recessive and also autosomal recessive. This is the part that confused me, if I don't tell anyone that the chart is made of X-linked & Y-linked recessive genotype, can anyone able to analyze and find out??

Here's the rules of X-linked & Y-linked.
Y-linked: Affected sons always have affected father as the father can only give the Y chomosome copy to its son.
X-linked recessive: Mostly affect the male as male only has a copy of X chromosomes so it doesn't have a counter copy. Female has 2 copies of X chromosome, 1 from father 1 from mother. So affected father will always give birth to carrier or affected daughter.
X-linked dominant: All affected offspring will have affected parent. Affected father will always give birth to affected daughter as male can only pass its copy of X chromosome to its daughter.

Yeah... I agree with you, best to do a trial and error to create a full chart to find out the genotypes.

----------


## vannel

Looks like you've really done alot of homework on the topic..! What you've analyzed seems to be right, but we are assuming that the gene is singular and not affected by other co-dominant or supergenes. It could also be that the gene(s) are simply not meant to be described using the punnett square.

You would need many generations to figure out recessive genes, and only true out-breeding to a strain that you are absolutely sure of and observing their F1 and F2..

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

----------


## Bern C

XD I got hooked by guppy genotypes. Yeah... maybe snakeskin traits can be X-linked too, as I found some source about it crossing to Y chromosome. Will do more reading on research about it and let you the answer.

Yeah... for recessive can only confirmed when you found that a offspring doesn't have affected parents. If a gene can be X or Y linked, then it will be more difficult to find.. I still researching about crossing of gene from X to Y. @[email protected]

Btw.. I don't really understand about supergene, can you explain more? :Opps:  Thanks~

----------


## tetrakid

@BernC,
Wa you discuss genetic stuff until so cheem, making me read until so blur, lol.  :Roll Eyes:   :COOL!:

----------


## Bern C

> @BernC,
> Wa you discuss genetic stuff until so cheem, making me read until so blur, lol.


 :Laughing:  Cos what I said might be wrong and confusing... Still learning about guppy gene. Actually guppy gene kinda interesting.. I found a video on a presentation of guppy genetics but too bad it's only soundless slides. 




I have look into the gene crossover between X & Y chromosomes. Actually it's not as complicated as I thought. It got nothing to do with dominant or recessive as I think there's no similar gene/aellel that can dominate it. The snakeskin body gene can just crossover from X chromosome to Y and the males offspring will have snakeskin traits. I think there's chances that it can also revert back to X-linked.

----------


## fireblade

super confused now...

----------


## Bern C

> super confused now...


Heya shifu fireblade~  :Jump for joy:  Mind sharing your knowledge with us? 

Found some source about others guppy traits. http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.2108/zsj.16.893

----------


## Guppendler

In reality I don't think it is really that confusing. 

I'd line bred snakeskin endler/guppy hybrid staring with double sword phenotypes and I ended up with a nice top swords eventually through selective breeding. Please see my progress from left to right

snakeskin doublesword.jpgTop Sword Snakeskin 1.jpgTop sword snakeskins.jpg

While the snakeskin gene is mostly Y-linked I was really hoping to have crossover to X chromosome and so far I do not come across any. If a crossover event do happen to X chromosome, I would know as the females used in this line are all colorless plain endler females. There will be tell tale traits on the females like some faint snakeskin pattern on the claudal/dorsal fins or even on the body. 

The top sword trait is suspected to be primarily Y-linked as I found so far. Males with better top swords are selectively bred till a nice long single upper swords is gotten.

----------


## vannel

I'm of the believe that the snakeskin gene does not typically cross over from Y to X. That's why they are sex linked, as described. In fact, they are probably 2 totally different genes that are each sex linked. A "crossover" would be quite rare and would probably constitute a naturally occurring mutation of sorts.

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## vannel

Ohh. A supergene is thought of as a gene that defines a set of different phenotypes.

A popular one is the Moscow supergene. The Moscow is iirc thought of as having a metallic blue/black head and a solid coloured body that pretty much matches the head colour making it look like a solid coloured fish.. Although it really isn't. Thus, what you have, is a supergene that defines a collection of different phenotypes that are tightly linked.

Something like that..

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## vannel

I've always been more fascinated by colours instead of patterns, to be fair. So my knowledge of the various pattern genes is not as good. Pretty sure some other people are alot more well versed.

If you've had the chance to read up on colour make up and layers, that's another huge area to explore. For example, there are diagrams and microscopic photos of scales to explain base colours in guppies (grey, blonde, and some also consider albino to be a base colour, although it isn't strictly). Also, how colours are not just present on a single flat layer on the top epidermis, but instead stacked.

Did you also know that glass belly is actually just a lack of the silver pigment on the belly, but because of that, colours therefore are not as 'solid'.

Okaaaayyyy.. I've probably gone abit overenthusiastic on the topic.

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## Bern C

@Guppendlers~ Beautiful snakeskin hybrids!!! 


Yeah.. I managed to dig out some articles on snakeskin genotype. There are actually 2 genes, snakeskin body(Ssb) & snakeskin tail(Ssb). Yup... the chances of gene crossover is very low. I not sure even after the crossover, the female will able to show the snakeskin traits or not as female seem to lack color pigmentation or something.
http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/se...rdID=SG9015057
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2794473


I heard that Moscow is created from metal head, not sure true or not. So supergene means those genes that are linked or closely related? I will look into this later.
Yeah... I find the guppy color pigmentation very interesting too.. still reading about this, and over-dominant, incomplete dominant & co-dominant. It's like the oil painting pastels.

----------


## fireblade

we should have another thread on guppy genetics

----------


## vannel

> we should have another thread on guppy genetics


Ha-ha. There was one some time ago I think. But no one really caught on.. Most people stick to line breeding their strains individually.

Sent from my iNO 3 using Tapatalk

----------


## Guppendler

Talking about base color an interesting one would be Purple Body mutation making orange colorations looked pink, this body base is signature of ginga rubra and ginga sulphereus. I have never seen any of these gingas being sold at any lfs before

----------


## vannel

From the paper written by Tanaka, the ginga strains are blonde based. The purple body mutation (Pb) is just a colour variant above the base colour itself, much like any other colour, but only affecting hybrids and only displaying on primarily the peduncle and lateral line.

Probably shouldn't be confused for being the base colour.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

----------


## Guppendler

Agree it should not be referred as 'base colour' as Pb also could happen on grey based body

----------

