# General > AquaTalk >  Newbie: Seeking advice on self-sustaining tank

## bagelfire

Hi AQers,

I'm a beginner to aquariums and would like to set up a very simple nanotank with aquatic plants and tiny longkang fish. In our tropical climate, is it possible to cultivate a self-sustaining setup whereby the plants provide fish for the critters and the critters (shrimp or fish etc.) give nitrates to the plants? No filters, no pumps, all natural. The neighborhood fish shop auntie laughed at me and told me to go back after all my plants and creatures die, but I still want to try.

Experts out there -- do you think it's possible? I'm starting out with a bag of aquatic soil, dehumidifier water and one leafy aquatic plant just to let the system "sit and settle" for a while before going to catch some longkang fish.

Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks!

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## limz_777

No expert on this, but don't know why the auntie laugh, for shrimps its possible, can't say for fish.

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## Urban Aquaria

It's possible to run such setups... i've dabbled in keeping small cookie jars with moss and shrimps, to buckets of water outdoors with plants and fishes, up to container gardens with both fishes and shrimps.

It's commonly referred to as walstad method or "el natural" (google those words to find out more). The book by Diana Walstad "Ecology of a Planted Aquarium" has many sections with examples of such setups. Try and get a copy of the book to read, very useful material.

How successful and stable a self-sustaining tank can be depends mainly on the balance between bio-load waste/nutrient production and the plants nutrient take up rate and photosynthesis. Achieving a precise balance is difficult, but possible. 

Tank size and volume will determine how much bio-load you can keep, bearing in mind that without a filter, the tank's own beneficial bacteria population will be much smaller, so the majority of the bio-load will have to be handled by the plants instead, therefore the size and number of livestock would also have to be way less than in a filtered tank. 

As always, larger tank water volume = more stable water parameters + slower build up of toxic conditions.

For such setups, ideally you should use fast growing adaptable plants that can grow in a wide range of conditions. Good examples are water wisteria, water sprite, hornwort, HM etc. With sufficient light, they can soak up excess nutrients quickly and help keep the water conditions clean.

Floating plants like frogbits, salvinia natans/minima, dwarf water lettuce etc are even better, especially with ample light sources. They can soak up even more nutrients due to the fact that they take Co2 directly from the air, so they have a big advantage in terms of growth compared to submerged plants.

As for livestock, choose fishes that can also adapt to wide ranges of water conditions and can perform a dual role of maintaining the tank (not just eat and poop, any fish can do that). It's a certainty that algae will grow in such tanks so ideal fishes could be guppies, or more specifically endlers (due to their smaller size, easier to control the bio-load). Part of their diet includes algae, so they can help to manage it too.

Cherry or malayan shrimps are also suitable for such tanks, their algae eating capability and general clean-up crew ability are ideal for self-sustaining tank systems.

Do note that if you really go all natural setup and use only sunlight as the light source, then that will affect plant growth and consequently the entire system, mainly due to the variations in weather and light conditions on a day to day basis, or even just throughout the course of a day.

Just remember that the more random the various input sources, expect to see more random results... while the more stable and predictable the input sources, the more stable and predictable the results.

Enjoy your experiments!  :Very Happy:

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## bagelfire

She was friendly about it, but I guess she wanted to sell filters and pumps  :Smile:

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## bagelfire

Thank you very much, Urban Aquaria, for a super comprehensive reply.
Lots of helpful information and references. I'll start with the plants, and have downloaded pictures of the ones you mentioned to go shopping in the neighborhood tonight. The floating plants will definitely help, I think. Endlers sound like a great choice of fish - I didn't know that they eat algae, well, I didn't even know that such a species exist!

By the way, I like the tanks that you've created (from your website). Amazing stuff.

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## cdckjn

It is possible for self-sustainable tank - totally enclosed - check ecosphere but for an open tank - evaporation will occur - requiring topping up of water - can use rain water as in an open air natural environment.

It is possible for a aquarium to exist without filter, air-pump (with electrical power) but would require regular top-up of water and minimum feeding - aquarium should have well-balanced plants/snails/fish or shrimp to have a self-maintaining ecosystem. Read up more before attempt as failure is the mother of any success. Good Luck.

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## bagelfire

Thank you, cdckjn.

Yes, mine will be an open tank so I will definitely have to top up. Rain water is a good idea!
Plants -> then snails -> then fish or shrimp seems to be the best order to do it.
Based on your and other experts' advice, I'll set up a good plant environment first.
Looking forward to learning as I go along and not killing (too many) things.

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## Il Pirata

Hi - This is my Walstad tank....

Dimensions - 120cm x 45cm x 45cm open top by full length window facing NNW.
Filter - Ipomoea aquatica (kang kong) as main filter, other plants and mosses as secondary filter
(Ipomoea also acts as a curtain to shield the sun in the months with direct sun in the evening.
Chiller - No chiller but fan cooled with circulation by air pump with 4 outlets providing temperature of 23.5C-26.5C
Substrate - $1.50-2.00 garden soil from local Nursery 1.5" topped by fine gravel 1".
(The gravel was a mistake - should have used coarse sand)
Lighting - 48W LED lights 120cm

Inhabitants include - 
Shrimps : Cherry shrimps (have multiplied beyond count), Malayan shrimps
Corydoras : Pygmaeus, Habrosus
Gobies : Rainbow gobies, neon gobies
Loaches : Kuhli loaches, Hovering zebra loaches, Panda loaches
Boraras : Urophthalmoides, maculatus, and a handful brigittae
Tetras : Gold tetras, Ruby tetras, Amber tetras & couple of surviving cardinals
Danio etc : Galaxies, Rummy nosed rasbora
Livebearers : Male endlers, halfbeaks
Others : otos, indostomus crocodilus
Trying to include : dario dario, clown killifish

I made many mistakes during the setup and after too.
1) Dry start method didn't work out well. In fact direct planting worked better for me.
2) Lighting was initially too low and caused my hc and several other plants to float off.
3) Didn't soak the driftwood enough and water is still brown even after 6 months.

More trials...
I didn't have a quarantine tank, and had die-offs due to new fish bringing in white spot disease.
Cannot use commercial medicine due to shrimp population.
Used anti-biotics, which resulted in further die-offs due to bacteria bloom.
Used heater but resulted in even more die offs.
Finally as about to give up when I decided to try using crushed garlic for a week.
It worked like a miracle and saved my fishes from further deaths.
Now maybe it didn't get rid of the white spot totally.
But I'm no longer seeing it on my fish so I'm happy.
The video is below. Water a bit cloudy due to overfeeding (my sin!)
They are feasting on live moina.
As you also can see I'm lazy to remove plants which had floated up.
But my experiment indicates to me that it is possible to do Aquascaping using Walstad method.

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## Cmlee

Is Ipomoea aquatica the same Kang kong we buy from market?

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## Il Pirata

Yes it is. It is the fastest growing emersed plant that i know of, having tried several including pandan. Based on my internet search, it is second only to water hyacinth in its ability to absorb excess nutrients and pollutants. Unlike water hyacinth it will grow in light shade.

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## Cmlee

> Yes it is. It is the fastest growing emersed plant that i know of, having tried several including pandan. Based on my internet search, it is second only to water hyacinth in its ability to absorb excess nutrients and pollutants. Unlike water hyacinth it will grow in light shade.


do you just buy from market and throw it into the tank? Do I need soil to grow it ?

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## stormhawk

My old all-natural container (a translucent plastic tub with a removable/adjustable cover) with no filtration was left in a cool shaded spot with a short period of direct sunlight. Only plants in that tub was hornwort and some water lettuce. I placed some crushed shells at the bottom to provide calcium for my Malayan Trumpet Snails and kept a bunch of wild-caught "longkang" guppies in there. The fish get a light sprinkling of food twice every day in the early morning and in the evenings. I only topped up the water with aged tap water and trimmed the hornwort every 2 weeks or so. The guppies stayed in there and went through 3-4 generations before dying off due to a stupid mistake I made. If your container has a decent growth of green algae, be it hairy or the crusted type, it will be even more fantastic for the fish. No soil or anything else, just fish and snail poop sustaining the plants and the addition of fish food to their diet to help kick in the cycle. They got live Moina once a week back then and all was well. Population was in control and I never had more than 10 guppies at any time in that container since it was slightly larger than a 1 foot tank so the adults typically picked off the weaker fry as they popped out. I think the dimensions was approximately 40 x 25 x 20cm.

I only spent money on the plastic tub and a container of flake food in the beginning. That colony of guppies started with 3 pairs I caught and every 3-4 weeks I would find young ones of different sizes throughout the tub. Hornwort and water lettuce came from a friend of mine.

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## Il Pirata

Yes its direct from the market. I planted it in the soil since its a requirement of Wakstad tanks. But it also produces roots in the water column. Note that it will not produce leaves under water though new shoots may appear. I hide the plant behind large drift wood for esthetic needs.

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## limz_777

> Yes its direct from the market. I planted it in the soil since its a requirement of Wakstad tanks. But it also produces roots in the water column. Note that it will not produce leaves under water though new shoots may appear. I hide the plant behind large drift wood for esthetic needs.


any close up picture of the kangkong ? cant see in the video

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## Phillipians

That's a pretty huge tank for Diana Walstad's method. While I admire the courage to set up such tanks, there is always a question on mind - why would people go for that when a manicured tank would enhance the aesthetics of a house as compared to that where the plants grow messy and all over. Wild is the word. Doesnt do much to convince wives / parents to commit such a huge space which does not beautify the house.

I may be wrong though; just that I have not seen a walstad tank which looks aesthetically pleasing after a while.

I would try that method for a small tank though - for that matter - I am starting up one with garden soil but for a nano.

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## Il Pirata

20150405_09495_edit_1428199004717.jpg

Sorry for the delay. Here's the pic of setup.

Walstad tank need not be messy. If her tanks look messy its because she chose it so. I'm planning to use her method to create a proper aquascape. I do not believe in all the paraphernalia of Amano tanks such as artificial substrates, filters, chillers and co2. My goal is a lower maintenance and lower cost tank which may appeal to some others put off by that required for Amano tanks. More patience is needed, and much thinking. So far nothing failed because its Walstad. Rather some things failed due to my errors.

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## Cmlee

IL pirata, do you have cherry shrimps to spare? Mine for no reason got wiped out

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## Phillipians

Understand your approach. Do not get me wrong. I really do not mind doing Walstad... Like I said, it just does not justify having a tank that does no more to improve the house aesthetically. Most of them look like a pond with glass walls.

Anyway we all have our preferences. Keep on experimenting! Whether Walstad or Amano, both require lots of patience.

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## bagelfire

Thank you bros and sis's for sharing your experiences and specs. I'm benefitting a lot from your advice and am learning much from mistakes too! Just wanted to share what happened so far.

Il Pirata: Wow, Kang Kong and crushed garlic! One of my neon tetras are showing seems to be white fungi growth so I will try the garlic tonight. Home remedies are great. I'll kapo some Kang Kong from my groceries to see how they grow. Your tank is huge compared to mine but I read somewhere that larger tanks are better for Walstad setups so that makes sense! Oh well, when I move to a bigger place… The variety of animals you have is amazing.

Stormhawk: Loved your "old all-natural container" and basic approach because I really want to achieve that eventually although I've deviated from it somewhat. Simplicity is bliss.

Phillipians: I understand where you're coming from and agree that beauty can be found in different ways. I am constantly amazed by carefully-maintained, manicured planted tanks that my friends have.

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## bagelfire

Okay for what it's worth:

Tank dimensions: 40 x 25 x 20cm
Equipment: Airpump
Orientation: Slanted natural lighting from a south-facing window
Water: Tap water treated with a capful of the common blue chemical found in LFSs.
Substrate: Black aquatic soil bought from a LFS.
Feed: Common fish flakes.

I started out with two leafy plants bought from a LFS and the above substrate, letting it sit for a week. But I made a terrible mistake by using water from my dehumidifier - which I didn't realize contained heavy traces of copper. The plants seemed okay, so I added small freshwater tilapia and crawfish/yabbies caught from a local reservoir. Catastrophic move, because they sadly died a few hours later. Whether it was due to the lack of oxygen (the fishes started gasping near the surface and the crawfish climbed the plant stems to emerge from the water). Terrible, irresponsible mistake. Felt super sian.

This initial experience taught me to investigate parameters more carefully.

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## Urban Aquaria

> Water: Tap water treated with a capful of the common blue chemical found in LFSs.


Do make sure it is a de-chlorinator solution that you are adding to the tap water, not Methylene Blue medication.

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## wongce

Hi TS, apart from what UA and others mentioned, you need to take care of some other stuff

Light:is your southfacing window has sufficient sunlight for the plants, 
if no:insufficient photosynthesis 
If yes: water temperature might be too high for some if not all fauna

Oxygen : you may need to add an air pump, not all fauna can withstand low oxygen level

Cycling of tank: better follow the steps

Diana walstad style might not suit everyone, and its not easy to balance the tank without mechanical /electrical support .the main point is suitable plants + plant heavily, fertile base substrate, sufficient light n proper temperature, low livestocks.... I did try on a smaller scale with only a CFL lighting setup and it did end up looking like a small pond in my living room as whats phillipians mentioned lol... Well decommed it after being complained by my wifey 

Well, don't be discouraged, research more and restart...We will try to guide along the way....

If you lazy to research, read up my blog below...

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## chefiction

Dear Gurus,

This is my Diana Walstad(DW) inspired tank that I would like to share.

20141224_111937.jpg

This is my first DW Wannabe tank that I started since 25th Oct 2014, after reading the book  'ECOLOGY of the PLANTED AQUARIUM.'

*@Dimension : 45cm(L) x 30cm(W) x 30cm(H)
@Lighting : China Led suitable for 2 feet tank (bought from china website)
@10 hours(siesta : 7am - 12pm , 5pm - 10pm)
@No co2 Injection
@Seachem flourish 1.2ml every monday
@Hang on Power filter(all filled up with filter media)
@Set up last week (25/10/2014)
@Last water change is Jan 2015
@Gentle surface movement & circulation
@Water not tested(no proper kit)
@No frill organic potting soil($2/bag from kovan flourist) + black quartz sand to cap off 

**My take on diana walstad tank *Personal thought no evident or scientific based explanation*


Key to no water change(more information can be found from the book)
*1)To ensure sustainability for long run like a few years, it is a *must* to feed enough fish food from start to ensure slow decomposition by the soil to generate enough nutrients and co2 for the plant
2)Use easy plant and less demanding plant, root plant is the best as it keep the soil oxygenated
3)Put floating plant in(Duckweed, frogbit, dwarfwater lettuce), *highly recommended!!!!
*
*Key drawback*
-Zero resilience to black brush algae, once introduced into the tank, no way to remove it without using additional chemical(Algexit, Seachem Excel)
-Other types of algae will minimally be presence that is inevitable. 
-Due to nature of this kind of set up, which to ensure stability in the tank, it limits creativity.

Due to tight budget, I only have some experienced with indoor and outdoor tank, which is cheap, no frill and minimal maintenance. Pardon me for the long post. But these are my 2 cents worth that I hope someone can benefit from my mistakes. 


Chris  :Smile:

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## Il Pirata

Hi cmlee, I'm unable to help with your shrimps. You need to figure out which parameter is out. I avoided having to deal with these by using garden soil. It is very stable.

Hi Phillipians, i do get your point. Perhaps I'm not so faithful a follower of the Walstad method in that i do care about the visual appeal of the tank and take pains to achieve it. 

Hi Bagelfire, thanks! I have made some stupid mistakes which i won't want to repeat. I was stupid enough to grossly overfeed for several months resulting in a near crash of the tank which i only stopped by doing substrate vacuuming and water changes over a few days. So still trying to find the correct balance such that my plants uptake = feeding of fish. Garlic is a weak medicine and has its limits.

Hi chefiction, seachem flourish is probably counter productive for walstad method. If you need to use it then its an indication your plants are not competing successfully with the algae and your tank circulation is likely insufficient. I used kangkong to supplement my delicate aqua scape plants and mosses. I also use 2 air pumps with double outlets each to create circulation. With these in place i have minimum algae issue. Your hang-on filter probably functions like my kangkong. But that would again be unwalstad.

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## Cmlee

Which brand of garden soil do you use?

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## Il Pirata

Per walstad instructions i looked for the cheapest garden soil. $1.50 type from World farm should do it. I soaked it for several days to remove any fert or additive before using. Do not get composts or peat moss type of soil.

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## Cmlee

Where did you buy the soil from? NTUC ?
got any brand for reference?

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## Il Pirata

I bought mine from Ang mo kio nursery. But its closed already. World Farm in Yishun is another source. Or Hawaii Landscape in Thomson. Get the cheap $1.50 or $2 type.

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## Cmlee

Can I buy them from department stores or supermart?

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## bagelfire

tank.jpg

Here's a picture of my tank - hopefully the attachment is successful.

Current denizens: Common pleco (I think; from Haig Rd market $1.50), red cherry shrimp (from RCS Haven, $2 each), yellow cross-backed shrimp (says the Polyart label, $6 each *ouch*), orange sunkist shrimp (C328 Florist and Aquarium), Neon Tetra (10 for $2.50 at Blk 85 Bedok N market), nerite snails (free, somehow hitched a ride on the initial leafy rooted water plants).

Current flora: Two leafy rooted plants I have yet to identify because the LFS assistant didn't know, Taiwanese moss ($18 from RCS Haven *ouch*), marimo moss ($4 each from Polyart).

Thank you very much as always for sharing.

@Urban Aquaria: Yes, I made sure that the blue chemical I added to the water was for chlorine treatment, not fish medicine. *phew* The LFS uncle who sold that to me at the Blk 85 Bedok N market is very chatty and regales any willing listener with interesting tales about his customers. Apparently he saved some rich uncle's entire outdoor pond stock with that common chlorine treatment. (I took it as an anecdote of course but fortunately the treatment seemed to work for my tank)

@wongce: Thanks for the tips. I will read your blog posts in earnest. To answer your questions, my tank is placed on a shelf about 2m away from the window and doesn't get direct sunlight. There is some algae growth but the snails and the sucker fish seem to take care of that. As for air, I succumbed to a non-Walstad step and installed an air pump, as you mentioned. However, I have not cycled the tank at all - will look into that.

@Chris (chefiction): I think your suggestions about feeding enough to add to the substrate and adding floating plants make sense. Keeping Il Pirata's experience in mind, I am trying not to feed them too much for fear of unbalancing the water parameters so I will proceed with caution. Will also go to the nearby canal near a forested area to look for duckweed this weekend  :Smile: 

@Il Pirata: I do have some plain old gardening soil bought from Katong Nursery at Tanah Merah so I am looking forward to trying your gardening soil tips! As my tank already has a layer of black aquatic soil, I'll have to slowly ease the gardening soil underneath it.

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## Urban Aquaria

The two plants you haven't ID yet are java fern ("windelov" version, based on the branched tips) and anubias (probably "barteri" version, based on the large size of the leaf), those are common hardy plants.

You haven't mentioned the size of your tank, but that pleco will grow larger and its currently your highest bio-load fish in the tank (they are very high waste producers). Based on its current size compared to the rest of your livestock, it could quickly overload the tank system. A better alternative would be otocinclus, which are much smaller in size with much lower bio-load, and they do the similar algae eating job too.

Unlikely the hitchhiking snails that came with the plants are nerite snails, most likely they are either pond snails or ramshorn snails. If you don't want snails in the tank, best to remove them as they will multiple quite fast.

Since you already have aquatic soil in the tank, its already designed for aquarium use... there is no need to add in gardening soil.

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## bagelfire

Thank you, Urban Aquaria!

My tank is of the nano variety: approximately 40x20x25cm. Yes, it was a mistake to get the common pleco and I am actually looking for a LFS to donate it. While researching algae-eaters, I liked otos the most but read that otos prefer to be in pairs, so I mistakenly went for the solo pleco option. Even then, I probably should have gotten a dwarf pleco.
Do you think I'll need a pair of otos or is one okay?

Hmm… I see, my snails are not ramshorns either (from pictures on the Internet) so they are probably the common pond variety, like you said. They do seem to breed pretty fast, so I will remove a couple of them tonight. I do want snails as they are part of the natural ecosystem, but I'd like to att/maintain a balance.

Thanks again!

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## Urban Aquaria

> My tank is of the nano variety: approximately 40x20x25cm. Yes, it was a mistake to get the common pleco and I am actually looking for a LFS to donate it. While researching algae-eaters, I liked otos the most but read that otos prefer to be in pairs, so I mistakenly went for the solo pleco option. Even then, I probably should have gotten a dwarf pleco.
> Do you think I'll need a pair of otos or is one okay?


For your tank size (around 20 liters), you'll really have to keep the bio-load in check due to the small water volume, as its parameters will fluctuate much faster with alot less buffer against toxic spikes.

Otocinclus can be housed solo in tanks, not necessary to be kept in pairs or groups... the important thing is they have access to sufficient algae and bio-film to supply them with natural food, otherwise you will need to feed algae wafers which add even more waste load to the tank (not so ideal if you want to create a self-sustaining tank). 

For your tank size, just one adult oto (3cm length) is sufficient... or perhaps two smaller sized juvenile ones if you prefer to keep more (just choose the smallest ones at the LFS to minimize the initial bio-load).




> Hmm… I see, my snails are not ramshorns either (from pictures on the Internet) so they are probably the common pond variety, like you said. They do seem to breed pretty fast, so I will remove a couple of them tonight. I do want snails as they are part of the natural ecosystem, but I'd like to att/maintain a balance.


Maybe post a photo of the snails? See if they can be identified.

Some aquarists allow snails to establish and multiply in their tanks as the snails do the job of clean up crew too, just that most people find the common brownish pond snails or malayan trumpet snails unsightly in large numbers... on the otherhand, some people like the look of red or blue ramshorn snails and deliberately buy them to add to their tanks.  :Grin: 

The other alternative is to stock nerite snails instead, specifically _Clithon corona_ (aka horned nerite snails, they have nice striped patterns and stay small in size). Just 2-3 of them will be enough for your tank size. These type of snails are excellent algae eaters and don't multiply in freshwater tank environments so they wouldn't over populate the tank (the females may lay dormant white eggs on plants or hardscape, but they need brackish water to hatch ).

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## reefkeeper

It is possible provided your aquarium is situated in a place where you have direct sunlight (at least 6 hours daily).


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