# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Livebearers >  Endler´s guppy

## Fei Miao

Anyone knows where can I find Endler´s guppy?

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## chris

hi,

Do take a look at the Guppy club Singapore's website.
www.sgguppy.com

You can find some people trading endlers there.

 :Smile:

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## Fei Miao

Thanks chris!  :Smile:

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## CM Media

Take a look at Eco Culture. Thay have pairs available.

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## Justikanz

Where is this Eco Culture? Can you guys recommend some interesting shops? You can send email if you think it might not be appropriate to say here. Thanks!!

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## hwchoy

> Hi. There is this shop close to Aljunied MRT called KingFisher Aquarium Shop that has two varieties (one Asian), but there are only males, no females. Cost $1.50 each. Cheers



what does it mean, "asian" variety?

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## stormhawk

Justikanz, here's the address:

Eco Culture / Cichlids Forever
1024, Upper Serangoon Road SG-534762.

Its near Kovan MRT. Do a check on streetdirectory.com.sg for an exact location map or check your street directory (book).

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## andrewtyr

> what does it mean, "asian" variety?


I think I read somewhere before that there are Brazilian guppies and Asian ones. What I understood is that these two withstand different pH ranges, hence people do not wish to confuse them. Not very sure myself.

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## hwchoy

> I think I read somewhere before that there are Brazilian guppies and Asian ones. What I understood is that these two withstand different pH ranges, hence people do not wish to confuse them. Not very sure myself.



I dislike the fact that it creates the impression in novice hobbyists' mind that some guppies and endlers actually come from Asia. Just like some people who insists that LH is a natural species because they can be found in the reservoirs.

 :Knockout:

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## Justikanz

Well, it can be also of the fact that a lot of guppy varieties are developed in Asian countries like Singapore and Sri Lanka... Btw, it might be that Endlers' might be a valid species and not a sub-species or variety of the guppy...

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## hwchoy

no doubt but my point being that the poecilids are south/central american in origin, and calling them "asian" varieties confuses the less well-informed hobbyist.

I thought it is quite clear the Endler's is a separate species from the guppy, it doesn't have a scientific name because no one has described it formally and name it in accordance to ICZN rules.

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## Justikanz

Could be the fact that it is still not described and they are found relatively near guppies and other Poecillids that many still consider them as varieties of guppies... 2 cent worth...  :Razz:

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## hwchoy

well, Dr. Endler stated that he has never observed them to hybridise with guppies.

I guess most people simply thinks they are varieties of guppies because they look so similar. on the other hand, most of these same people do not have the qualification to make an informed conclusion (yours truly included)  :Smile:

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## stormhawk

If you look closely, _Poecilia picta_ also look like the standard _Poecilia reticulata_ aka Guppy, but it is a separate species.  :Grin:

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## Justikanz

Read an article on TFH... Think a hobbyist went to Venezuela to colect Endlers'. Read he found that the Endler's, Pictas and Recticulatas can cross-breed... Dr Endler reported that he felt that the offsprings, if any, would be sterile but the writer reported fertile offsprings... Interesting info... *Edited*

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## stormhawk

Ah yes, I did come across that issue with that particular article. However I just gave it a quick browse and didn't purchase it because I wasn't too interested in livebearers.

There are some good livebearer associations in the world that might be able to answer some queries about the Endler's and other guppy-like species.

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## hwchoy

> If you look closely, _Poecilia picta_ also look like the standard _Poecilia reticulata_ aka Guppy, but it is a separate species.



I know! if only I can get my hands on some  :Roll Eyes:   :Kiss:

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## stormhawk

They can be sourced for... but getting the sellers to ship here is another question altogether. If I could I would want some myself.  :Grin:

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## CM Media

Hi guys,

I've 2 separate lines running currently. One of it can be found at Eco Culture. The other one which just started to have fry. I'll post up some pictures if I can get some. By the way, all endlers does not orginate from Asia. It was introduce as a form of mosquitoe control here.

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## hwchoy

> Hi guys,
> 
> I've 2 separate lines running currently. One of it can be found at Eco Culture. The other one which just started to have fry. I'll post up some pictures if I can get some. By the way, all endlers does not orginate from Asia. It was introduce as a form of mosquitoe control here.



Au, your lines refer to Endler's and not _P. picta_ right?  :Huh?:

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## stormhawk

Yes I think Au is referring to Endlers.

The picta isn't available locally I think.. if it was it'll be selling like hotcakes.  :Surprised:

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## stormhawk

An image of an Endler that I used to own.. the damn pair didn't produce a single fry.. and it was passed one breeder to the next, and all 3 failed. The female was super fat yet she didn't drop a single fry.  :Knockout:

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## hwchoy

> I see there has been a very interesting discussion on my statement of "Asian variety". It was stated by the fish seller and I must honestly admit that I got confused by the statement myself, but my discussion with him led in the direction that these were from the "guppy strain" commonly found in the rivers and canals here many years ago, but no longer can be found in the wild, hence the term "Asian variety".


precisely why some of us uptight hobbyist take issue with such assertions (although I understand you are also a victim, so to speak  :Grin:  )

what is more disturbing about this fish seller is that he cannot seem to distinguish guppies from endler's. from what you just described, he seem to be confused between the wild-form guppies and the fancy guppies.

Endler's were not well known until probably 80s and 90s when enough stock made it to the trade. first collected in 1937 (for a museum collection, i.e. in the form of kiam hee) and only rediscovered by Dr. Endler in 1975 with enough live specimens to establish breeding populations.

what is found in the local longkang are actually guppies introduced for mosquito control, as well as escaped fancy stock from the farms (which have since reverted to their wild-form). I am not sure exactly when guppies were introduced into Singapore but in the 60s I have been scooping guppies out of the longkang along Orchard Road (in front of what is now Orchard Tower).

It is unlikely Endler's would made it to Singapore as mosquito control agents. So if the fish seller is right, you are actually getting guppies instead of endler's  :Laughing:  

Note that wild-form guppies strongly resembles the endler's in form and colour, except the endler's have charateristic patterns and spotting, as well as that strong green sheen.






> And a friend of mine confirmed that when he was young he would go scooping these kind of endlers from the riverside. Hence it is insinuated that other varieties are non Asian of origin because they are from the more recently imported varieties (versus the "Asian variety" which has been a long term resident of Singapore). This is my best explanation. Not sure if it helps any, but that's my 2 cents worth on this question.


your friend has been scooping guppies all along, and they can still be found in the longkangs. wild guppies are very nice too  :Smile:   :Smile:   :Smile:

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## hwchoy

Endler's can be refered to as _Poecilia_ sp. Endler.

never allow other people's qualifications to hinder your own logical thoughts and deductions, but do give them due considerations. scientists can be wrong too, and sometimes for the simplest or silliest reasons (you are tempting me to tell the _Puntius johorensis_ story here  :Smug:  ). the true scientific spirit is to challenge what does not sound right, and to apply corrections when the truth is out.  :Smile:

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## Justikanz

Hmmm... So, anyone knows where can find the Endler's on a more or less 'perm' basis?

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## budak

i call this the Never-Endlering story!!

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## Justikanz

> i call this the Never-Endlering story!!


Sorry ah...  :Opps:  Still finding them with no avail...  :Sad:

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## gks

> well, Dr. Endler stated that he has never observed them to hybridise with guppies.
> 
> I guess most people simply thinks they are varieties of guppies because they look so similar. on the other hand, most of these same people do not have the qualification to make an informed conclusion (yours truly included)


Endler can cross breed and retain new hybridised breed:

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/cal...ger_endler.htm

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## hwchoy

oh my goodness. I'm not surprise they would hybridise (wonder if F1 is fertile) but was hoping it would never happen artificially. now the box is wide open!  :Mad:

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## Justikanz

Dr Endler did point out that he tot the fry would not be fertile... But from the pics, it seems like they are... Oh well... There they go the way of the guppy...

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## Robert

Hi, 
Enlders breed with guppys easily and the offspring is fertile. Most of the so called "Endler's Livebearer" around the world are hybrids with guppys. The endlers have a very special genetic and most of their typical traits are y-linked and dominant. So a "cross" with a rather colorless (from a genetic point of view) guppy female e.g. from a dpuble sword strain produces endler-like offspring. The color intensity varies a lot, depending on the female's genetic.

The California ... whatever is a simply a Endler male x mikarif female cross. Mikarif females have x-linked snake skin + autsomal recessive Stoerzbach metal, both leads to the metalic yellow phenotyp, called "mikarif". So these "new" California ... are just a combination of the y-linked endler traits + x-linked snake skin. You see the snake skin allel is dominant over most of the endler-typical traits. They are fertile and will breed for sure. I can see them from time to time 
in our LFS.

regards

Robert

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