# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  erratum: Ep fasciolatus zimiensis SL89 not SL99

## ruyle

Folks, soon Ronnie Lee will have an approved image of above fish sent by
David Mikkelsen that he can post to the forum. Next week I hope to send
(via David) eggs of same to Ronnie Lee. :wink: 

Bill Ruyle

----------


## timebomb

Hi, Bill,

I got the image from David today and he gave me permission to use it in this forum. It's truly one of the most beautiful fish I've seen. Ronnie, we are counting on you to hatch the eggs :wink: 



Loh K L

----------


## hwchoy

Ronnie, when you hatch and colour up this fish, I'll camp at your house until we get a picture  :Laughing:

----------


## RonWill

:Shocked:  <faint!>

----------


## ruyle

> Hi, Bill,
> 
> I got the image from David today and he gave me permission to use it in this forum. It's truly one of the most beautiful fish I've seen. Ronnie, we are counting on you to hatch the eggs :wink: 
> 
> 
> Loh K L


Hi Kwek Leong, David insists that this is an unretouched photo, looks like a
painting! As a comparative check out Tim Addis' site: Killifish of West Africa
he has a pic of this fish, too. David must have captured the image using
natural sunlight on the front glass. Anyhoo, wish me luck next week! My
nick on Aquabid is "Zardoz17"

Bill Ruyle

----------


## hwchoy

it is quite possible to produce such colours through flash photography, especially multi-source flash setup.

In any case, I would expect some "adjustments" to have been done which is a different thing from "retouching". Such minor adjustments would have been done by the processing lab without you knowing in a lab if you used film.

----------


## RonWill

David, if you're reading this, thanks for allowing us to host the pic at this forum. A picture speakth a thousand words and in this case, of psychedelic colors!

Bill, on behalf of every here, thank you for your faith in bringing this beauty to our shores. I was getting dizzy from the expectations piled upon by you folks, not to mention a camper outside my home!  :Laughing:  but I'll tackle the species as per SOP, so I don't get too stressed up!

Kwek Leong, I could have sworn that you 'touched up' the pic before posting it up. My eyes aren't what they used to, so I 'enlarged' it a little and noted no less than 13 hues (or colors) and many more gradient chromas in between! Unbelievable!... almost like looking into a rainbow and to think it's an Epiplatys (some of them are rather bland). Do you wish to split the loot, so we both can lose some hair? :wink: 

Choy, when you pitch the tent... I'll roll out out the mattress, pillows and a nice cool malt. Nothing like pampering your fishy lensman to bring out the best in him... (and you folks can blame him if the pics are not up to your standard!  :Laughing:  ).

oh... and I didn't know what "erratum" was. So I did a search in my favourite dictionary and it's defined as : _An error in printing or writing, especially such an error noted in a list of corrections and bound into a book._ (and if you're interested, it's pronounced "er·ra·tum")

I would have simply called it "a typo", but a swell fish it is! :wink:

----------


## killifishdavid

I agree that this fish is one of the most awesomed colored killifish I have ever seen! This photo was not enhanced or painted in any way. This shot above was taken indoors under full spectrum flo. lighting. I have heard a problem with this fish is sex ratios tend to be very male heavy. I am raising fry in several conditions to see if the female ratio of offspring can be increased. I will assume that like with many of the cooler water killifish that many hobbiest have the same sex ratio problem with, that the fish are being raised in too warm and/or too neutral PH of water. I am placing my bet that cool(66 to 68 F degrees) and acidic water will yeild a percentage of females to keep this fish going. I have tried to locate everyone every working with this fish and they have all lost it due to all male offspring.
By the way I picked a batch of eggs from then again tonite Bill, go ck AB!!

----------


## ruyle

> By the way I picked a batch of eggs from then again tonite Bill, go ck AB!!


Thanks, David, I've placed my bid. Also, as mentioned before, there will be
some items from your "buffet table" Ron and I want you to send. I have a
high confidence level of winning it seems.  :Very Happy:  Thanks for the handy tips
on these fish. Your Oregon water (the closest thing to RO outa the tap)
should be easy to tweak when breeding these fish and I hope I too am successful in producing females.  :Cool:  

Regards,

Bill

----------


## timebomb

> Hi Kwek Leong, David insists that this is an unretouched photo, looks like a painting!


Indeed, it does look like a painting, Bill. But it also reminds me of a legendary bird in Chinese culture, the Phoenix. 

You know, when I saw that picture, I thought, "Just when I was thinking about not keeping too many species of Killies but to concentrate on only a few, here comes another one that I have to have in my tanks. Shucks, Bill, you're really infectious :smile:

Ronnie, you hatch the eggs and I will take some fry from you.

Loh K L

----------


## hwchoy

here's the picture from FishBase, apparently a whole lot of subspecies and synonyms have been condensed as _Epiplatys fasciolatus_ (Günther 1866).

----------


## RonWill

David, is this the same fish mentioned at Tim Addis's site? In it, there's one "*E. zimiensis Perie SL 89*" but not 'Faimah'. From what know, how many populations of the _E. fasciolatus zimiensis_ are there?




> I have heard a problem with this fish is sex ratios tend to be very male heavy. I am raising fry in several conditions to see if the female ratio of offspring can be increased.


FYE (From Your Experience), is this ratio influenced at time of spawning, incubation, hatching or raising?

There was an experiment reported on the net, that if fry are hatched and raised in 2's, the sex ratio is supposedly more balanced.




> I will assume that like with many of the cooler water killifish that many hobbiest have the same sex ratio problem with, that the fish are being raised in too warm and/or too neutral PH of water.


In our local waters, where water parameters can be adjusted but not the temp, would 25~31ºC be considered 'too warm'? It's unlikely that I'd be adding a chiller to the tank anytime soon.




> I am placing my bet that cool(66 to 68 F degrees) and acidic water will yeild a percentage of females to keep this fish going.


Would acidic water alone yield a balanced ratio?




> I have tried to locate everyone every working with this fish and they have all lost it due to all male offspring.


All?... urm... it's quite unbelievable not to have a single female around!... ouch! May I know how many have worked on it?




> By the way I picked a batch of eggs from then again tonite Bill, go ck AB!!


... and I've just registered for an AB account. No prizes for guess what my 'moniker/handle' is! :wink:

----------


## RonWill

> You know, when I saw that picture, I thought, "Just when I was thinking about not keeping too many species of Killies but to concentrate on only a few, here comes another one that I have to have in my tanks.


I think there was an old Bond movie titled "Never Say Never", but don't worry my friend, our old arrangement of 'safety-net' *never* left my mind :wink: .

Kwek Leong, when that time comes, we'll split the 'loot' and as usual, I'll post all relevant status/updates.




> Shucks, Bill, you're really infectious :smile:


yeah... and I think he's gonna get me into alot more too!

OK, you people listen up... who has 2-ft tanks that they wanna discard or donate?? I need 'em!  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  (_ouch! I think I just sprained my tonsils from laughing too hard!_)

----------


## hwchoy

Ronnie, under Sierra Leone I found the following possibilities for your mentioned localities:Peri (11°4'36"W, 7°39'42"N)Faima (11°34'11"W, 7°41'7"N)the two places are about 55km apart, on the left and right side of the Moa River. Considering these fish comes from Sierra Leone, I doubt our weather would hardly be considered too wam.

----------


## ruyle

> In our local waters, where water parameters can be adjusted but not the temp, would 25~31ºC be considered 'too warm'? It's unlikely that I'd be adding a chiller to the tank anytime soon.


Ron, I believe David raises these in a basement fishroom where it is easy
to keep the water cool. You might want to build a few Henri de Bruyn type
wet/dry filters that will keep the water 2-5degrees cooler than any other
type filter. Also the raingutter you will use would be easy to load up with
ice cubes which would melt and drip down in the tank. Article on its construction was featured in an AKA journal and if interested I will go over
its construction with you after work. I am planning on building a few myself. I guess diapterons are not the first choice among SG members :wink: Gotta run!

Regards,

Bill

----------


## hwchoy

> oh... and I didn't know what "erratum" was. So I did a search in my favourite dictionary and it's defined as : _An error in printing or writing, especially such an error noted in a list of corrections and bound into a book._ (and if you're interested, it's pronounced "er·ra·tum")


Ronnie, _erratum_ is the singular of _errata_ lor*.

* now define lor  :Laughing:

----------


## RonWill

> ...under Sierra Leone I found the following possibilities for your mentioned localities:Peri (11°4'36"W, 7°39'42"N)Faima (11°34'11"W, 7°41'7"N)


Choy, where did you find the populations? I was at Tim's _zimiensis_ site and couldn't even find the word 'Faima'.

Another site I went, has the following details;
Zimi, PK80 Bomi Hills & Peri
Non-annual, Size: 8cm, **(Advanced Level of difficulty in Aquarium)
Distribution: SierraLeone, Liberia




> You might want to build a few Henri de Bruyn type wet/dry filters...


Bill, I'm running a wet-dry trickle-filter in my sump. Both are DIY and this filter services a 4-tier rack with 3 x 4-footers (48"L x 18"W x 10"H = 135 litres or 36 US gal.) Was following the discussion at KT on the Henri filter... but got confused! Would love to have the low down on it's construction and application. Kick start another thread on this and I'll work with you from there.




> I guess diapterons are not the first choice among SG members.


Don't be too quick to say that... I know some very gung-ho fellas here who'll try anything at least *once*!

----------


## hwchoy

> Choy, where did you find the populations? I was at Tim's _zimiensis_ site and couldn't even find the word 'Faima'.


what  :Exclamation:  try to dig my lobang  :Exclamation:   :Question:  pay school fees man  :Exclamation:   :Laughing:  

OK, actually I know of two good sites for checking geographical locations:Alexandria Digital Library Gazetteer (this site used by FishgBase)Worldwide Directory of Cities and TownsDo note that these are possible locations, whether they are the locations quoted as the population codes I do not know.

----------


## RonWill

> what  try to dig my lobang


Yes Choy, I _had_ to ask and am sure the rest of the guys and gals appreciated the answer too! I'll go check it up later. Thanks!

PS: I hope lobang* doesn't translate literally as 'hole'... _that_, I wouldn't want to dig!  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  

*In Bahasa Melayu or Malay language, lobang would mean... urm... 'hole'... as in "a hole in the ground (or my wallet)". Coloquially, and as a figure of speech, it translates as 'clue', 'lead' or any means/method of getting 'a good score'.
(urhm, Choy... we're going off topic :wink: )

----------


## CM Media

> I have heard a problem with this fish is sex ratios tend to be very male heavy.


Oh no another one!!! Ronnie, after you manage to raise them, I would like to have a pair to try!  :Laughing:  

I've worked on the Simp. _picturatus_ that give me 1 female out of 60 raised. I manage to get a percentage of 80% female when I alter the water chemistry! This may differ from the Ep. _fasciolatus_ as the Simp. _picturatus_ belongs to the annuals!

'Never Try Never Know'  :Twisted Evil:

----------


## killifishdavid

I do not have enough experiance with this species to say yet what will mostly or partly effect the sex ratio of the offspring. I found 4 other people who have worked with this particular fish, all with the lack of female offspring. 

So far in my recent work with the cameronense group of killifish I find that 7.1 to 6.8 PH and temps of 73 to 75 degrees produce 90 to 100% males. In the following test batch a temp of 68 to 71 and PH of 6.0 to 6.5
produced 60 to 75% males. These are for species coming from Gabon and Cameroon. 

When I commercially bred and raised Apistogramma and Pelvacachromis
(4 to 5 years ago) I found that it was not so much temperature that effected sex ratios, but PH was the key factor!! By performing regular water changes and allowing tank PH to remain higher, I would get many more males in compairison to females.

I have been compiling information and continue to perform controlled studies on many of the killifish species I am currently working with (I have a few species) in preparation for publishing. The publications should start becoming available this summer! However it will be an on going project which may not ever come to an end until I leave this body!!

On the cooler temps needed for many of the killifish you guys in SG wish to keep and maintain for many years, a chiller may be cost prohibitive, however have you considered allternatives? A apartment type or household refrigerator can be modified to cool a large bank of tanks. One method I know of that works well, is to coil aluminum tubing inside of the refer unit and connected to a small circulation pump. Remember that insulating all components exposed to the warmer air temps for best results.

Good Evening !!

----------


## hwchoy

> When I commercially bred and raised Apistogramma and Pelvacachromis
> (4 to 5 years ago) I found that it was not so much temperature that effected sex ratios, but PH was the key factor!! By performing regular water changes and allowing tank PH to remain higher, I would get many more males in compairison to females.
> 
> Good Evening !!


Sounds sensible, since even human are supposedly affected by pH in the womb during conception.

----------


## RonWill

> So far in my recent work with the cameronense group of killifish I find that 7.1 to 6.8 PH and temps of 73 to 75 degrees produce 90 to 100% males. In the following test batch a temp of 68 to 71 and PH of 6.0 to 6.5 produced 60 to 75% males. These are for species coming from Gabon and Cameroon.


David,
Granted that we can alter parameters for a more balanced sex ratio and that the determination of sex is upon hatching, then how long after the fry are free-swimming is their sex 'confirmed'?... or is it further subjected to change, according to their grow-out environment?

I read about experiments where only 2 eggs are allowed to hatch in each container and the conclusion to that was a pair. Let's say, if their sex is 'fixed' after a week, we can then 'regroup' the batch of fry to continue with their grow-out. Tinkering with the pH sounds a whole lot easier!




> The publications should start becoming available this summer!


Drop us an update when the book is ready for prime time.




> On the cooler temps needed for many of the killifish you guys in SG wish to keep and maintain for many years, a chiller may be cost prohibitive, however have you considered allternatives?


One other possibility may be a 'evaporative cooler' discussed earlier or perhaps a Henri DeBruyn filter, further assisted with fan cooling, to drop the temp.

I was relocating some tanks around to a shaded windy spot and the water registered 25ºC... and that's good! considering no fan was used. Looks like diapteron species is a possibility! :wink:

----------


## killifishdavid

I tried the 2 fry method on a number of genera and a lot of species. I found that the sex ratio troubled fish, it did not help. I still ended up with all males or all females!! The species that the 2 fry rearing method did work on for me was the species that I did not have a sex ratio problem with!! So I do not buy this method at all. I do know that temp and ph both may have an effect on the sex ratio outcome, I have proven this and can reproduce it. If I need more females or more males of selected species/genera I am able to manipulate the water conditions to produce the sex I prefer. I do not claim to know all the secrets, but I have nailed down some of the sex ratio manipulation. Betta breeders have been doing this for many years on your side of the world, to produce males or females as their market demands. As far as the time involved before the sex is set is only a guess at this point. My guess is that it may be in the 4-6 week time frame but could be longer or shorter for faster or shorter growing species.

My publications I am working on I will say are in the form of a series of printed booklets that will sell for approx. $5. usd each. They will be the size of the AKA JAKA booklets. I will let you guyz all know as we get close
to print time so you may place reserve orders if you wish!! ;-)

----------


## ruyle

David sent an email to both Ronnie and myself and is sending 30 eggs of
ZII today to arrive (tentatively) in SG this Friday. Other eggs, details, I'll
let Ronnie inform.

Bill Ruyle
farang9

----------


## RonWill

Bill, parcel arrived Friday morning, March 19th, and I've checked the contents;

[1] One petri-dish with peat, labelled ZII 'Faimah' SL89 30eggs Mar 05.
[2] One petri-dish with peat, labelled BIT 'Ekondo Titi' Coll: Mar 16.
[3] One breather bag of eyed-up BIT Ijebu Ode 2doz.
[4] One bag of Paramecium culture.
[5] One petri dish from Patrick Coleman.

I had originally intended to split incubation 2 ways; ie. one bag with Kwek Leong but it looks like 2 auctions' worth of eggs are in one dish. Under the stereo-scope (or dissecting scope), eggs are eyed-up and ready to burst! Have to wet tonight!

The Ekondo and Ijebu are my tag-alongs. I'm absolutely convinced by breather bags... and utterly amazed with at least 6 Ijebu frys swimming around! (I'm thinking live fishes for my next shopping spree!)

In anticipation of the Paramecium starter, I've prepared 'soups' from various ingredients, to see which works best/fastest ;
Boiled lettuce/cabbage, Wheat grain/yeast, Evaporated powdered milk, Liquidfry #1, Pellet dog food/lettuce, Banana skin and pending availability; cornhusks and hay (sounds like a trip to the turf club??)

I've taken a few pics, in between jobs at work, of the package and eggs. Will do up a simple webbie, just so that Bill knows what's happening to his precious cargo (so stay tuned to this channel  :Laughing:  ).

The good folks here should know the pressure I'm feeling... Bill's dish of 30 eggs *alone* is worth slightly more than US$100, excluding shipping (or SG$6 *per egg*! ouch!  :Shocked:  ). Thus, any distribution of his frys will have to be accounted for... lest people ask if I have any to 'spare'.

Kwek Leong, I'll let you know when the fry are stable for transport. Please clear up a container/tank for the newcomers.

Fedex shipping of US$45 will be split amongst those involved locally (this excludes Bill), which works out to SG$11.oo per person... hmm, I like rounding up numbers too! :wink:

----------


## timebomb

> The good folks here should know the pressure I'm feeling... Bill's dish of 30 eggs *alone* is worth slightly more than US$100


And he gave them to you for free :wink:. It just goes to show what a generous man Bill is. But you're a generous man too, Ronnie and as you once said, it's all reciprocal. 




> Kwek Leong, Please clear up a container/tank for the newcomers.
> Fedex shipping of US$45 will be split amongst those involved locally


I've always have tanks on standby for new fish :wink: Anytime the fry is ready to be transported, just give me a call. By the way, please include me as one of those involved in sharing the shipping costs. I think it's only fair I pay my share.

Loh K L

----------


## RonWill

> And he gave them to you for free :wink:. It just goes to show what a generous man Bill is.


I can agree that Bill generosity is beyond me, but I'd prefer to think that the ZII is for *all* of us to be temporary babysitters, or guardians, if you will.

In one of the threads (I've forgotten which one), we know that Bill will be heading down to Thailand and he'd wish for us to be able to send the some future generation of ZII eggs or offsprings to him, hence the issue of accountability.

Personally, I look at it as a 'maintenance program' to keep the ZII going. Imagine what it would be like, with nothing to offer back (as in zero survivor), when the time comes.

FWIW, I'm thankful for the opportunity he's given us to work with such a beautiful killie.

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie, KL, and the gang,
While I wish for all success with these eggs, it won't be the end of the world
if you get ziilch with the ZII :wink: We can try again, and there are some
other species I would like to send over, hopefully in April sometime. And
please, I can be a silent partner in this, no need for fanfare  :Opps:  

Take care and best wishes,

Bill Ruyle
farang9

----------


## RonWill

> While I wish for all success with these eggs, it won't be the end of the world if you get ziilch with the ZII


That may be true, but Kwek Leong and I believe that without obligation and commitment, nothing can get off the ground.




> ... and there are some other species I would like to send over, hopefully in April sometime.


There's something optimistic that I'd like to share with you and something I'm very convinced about. When I finally poured out the content from the breather bag (containing 2 doz Ijebu Ode eggs), I did a head count of 24 frys! No casualty as yet. This is the most impressive survival rate I've experienced!

*Nothing* has come ever close to this and David, if you're listening... *eyed-up egg + breather bag + Fedex* = best survival = one very happy *repeat* customer!... think about it.




> I can be a silent partner in this, no need for fanfare


Only people in shame hang their heads low and in silence. You have no need for that :wink:

(BTW David, here's a quick update from my previous order;
AUS= 6 fry, SPL Moliwe=2, OGO=0 and the COE eggs have all turned white!  :Crying:  What's the incubation time for the SPL & OGO?)

----------


## RonWill

Bill, I've been hitting the sack past 5am for the last week or two, and I'm poofed!... but a brief update...

040323 = 13 fry
040324 + 3 fry
Total fry count to date @ 16 fry, out of the said 30 eggs... we'll see if further hatchlings appear. Roger and out.

----------


## ruyle

> Bill, I've been hitting the sack past 5am for the last week or two, and I'm poofed!... but a brief update...
> 
> 040323 = 13 fry
> 040324 + 3 fry
> Total fry count to date @ 16 fry, out of the said 30 eggs... we'll see if further hatchlings appear. Roger and out.


Fantastic! Ron, get some rest!  :Surprised:  

Bill
farang9

----------


## kc

Ronnie,

If I ever move to your neighbour, I'll be glad to help but you need accept me as a student first (for free). :wink:

----------


## RonWill

Student?? You're just flattering me KC but help is always appreciated. All the units at my level are taken up, so you're a little late for that.

Would have loved having another killie-keeper at my floor (or my apartment block), but I'm sure the Town Council will have something to say about the 'mess' :wink: 
===========================================

Bill & others,
For those who're eyeing for an update, here's a quickie summary;
Parcel arrived March 19th.
*[1] One petri-dish with peat, labelled ZII 'Faimah' SL89 30eggs Mar 05.* 
040323 = 13 fry 
040324 + 3 fry 
040325 + 2 fry
Total head count to date @ 18 fry out of 30 eggs.
===========================================

and for the 'tag-ons';
*[2] One petri-dish with peat, labelled BIT 'Ekondo Titi' Coll: Mar 16.* 
040323 = 3 fry
040325 + 2 fry
Total head count to date @ 5 fry out of ? eggs.

*[3] One breather bag of eyed-up Ap. BIT Ijebu Ode 2doz.* 
Just checked. No casualties as yet.

*[4] One bag of Paramecium culture.* 
Resubbed to 8 cultures of various media & doing just fine.

*[5] One petri dish from Patrick Coleman.* 
Of the visible 34 eggs (*as counted from pic*). Can't see? Click *here*.
040323 = 36 fry
040325 + 1 fry
Total head count to date @ 37 fry (N'sukka?).
===========================================

David, another update from my previous order (received around *March 8th*) and wetted 040310;
*Aphy. australe 'Cape Esterias' EBT 96-27 coll: Feb 26th*
040310 = 8
040320 + 1
040322 + 2
040323 + 1
Total head count to date @ 12 fry out of 24 eggs.

*Chromaphy. splendopleure Moliwe coll: Feb 25th*
040320 =2 fry
Total head count to date @ 2 fry out of ? eggs.

*Aphy. ogoense pyrophore GHP 80-23 coll: Feb 26th*
Zero fry to date

*Aphy. coeleste GBG 93-2 coll: Feb 28th*
Zero fry to date

Further updates when I'm more sober :wink:

----------


## RonWill

A mini update before I turn in...

*[1] One petri-dish with peat, labelled ZII 'Faimah' SL89 30eggs Mar 05.* 
040323 = 13 fry 
040324 + 3 fry 
040325 + 2 fry
040326 + 3 fry
Total head count to date @ 21 fry out of 30 eggs.
===========================================

*[2] One petri-dish with peat, labelled BIT 'Ekondo Titi' Coll: Mar 16.* 
040323 = 3 fry
040325 + 2 fry
040326 + 2 fry
Total head count to date @ 7 fry out of ? eggs.

all others unchanged.

----------


## gweesm1

> [5] One petri dish from Patrick Coleman.
> Of the visible 34 eggs (as counted from pic). Can't see? Click here.
> 040323 = 36 fry
> 040325 + 1 fry
> Total head count to date @ 37 fry (N'sukka?).


Thanks Ronnie for baby-sitting the Nsukka for me. I will get it back from you once I submit my dissertation end of next week.

David here is the updates on the eggs (arrive 2 weeks before Bills eggs)
AUS = 5 fry
MIR TRU tinto = 0 fry
MIR MOE nguti = 0 fry
EXO ngoudoufola = 0 fry


regards

----------


## ruyle

> *[1] One petri-dish with peat, labelled ZII 'Faimah' SL89 30eggs Mar 05.* 
> 040323 = 13 fry 
> 040324 + 3 fry 
> 040325 + 2 fry
> 040326 + 3 fry
> Total head count to date @ 21 fry out of 30 eggs.


Ron, that is much better than I had hoped, good job!

Bill
farang9

----------


## RonWill

Bill,
Kwek Leong was at my place on Saturday Mar 27th, and collected a share of 10 ZII frys. There was supposed to be 11 in the other tray but only 10 was in sight.

Anyway, the update refers to hatch rate only;
*[1] One petri-dish with peat, labelled ZII 'Faimah' SL89 30eggs Mar 05.* 
040323 = 13 fry 
040324 + 3 fry 
040325 + 2 fry
040326 + 3 fry
040327 + 1 fry
040329 + 2 fry
Total head count to date @ 24 fry out of 30 eggs... and I couldn't ask for more.

and for the 'tag-ons';
*[2] One petri-dish with peat, labelled BIT 'Ekondo Titi' Coll: Mar 16.* 
040323 = 3 fry
040325 + 2 fry
030426 + 3 fry
040327 + 2 fry
Total head count to date @ 10 fry out of ? eggs.

All others remain unchanged.

----------


## RonWill

Bill, here's one more for the road :wink: 

*[1] One petri-dish with peat, labelled ZII 'Faimah' SL89 30eggs Mar 05.* 
040323 = 13 fry 
040324 + 3 fry 
040325 + 2 fry
040326 + 3 fry
040327 + 1 fry
040329 + 2 fry
040330 + 1 fry
Total head count to date @ 25 fry out of 30 eggs... I'm really pleased!!

All others remain unchanged.

----------


## ruyle

> Total head count to date @ 25 fry out of 30 eggs... I'm really pleased!!


Me too!

Bill

----------


## killifishdavid

Ronnie wrote :Sad: BTW David, here's a quick update from my previous order; 
AUS= 6 fry, SPL Moliwe=2, OGO=0 and the COE eggs have all turned white! What's the incubation time for the SPL & OGO?)

It is from 2 to 3 weeks, I will go with the breather bags and water for future sending of non annual eggs, I hope this will improve your hatch results!!

----------


## killifishdavid

Gwee,
The eggs of:
AUS = 5 fry 
MIR TRU tinto = 0 fry 
MIR MOE nguti = 0 fry 

could take from 5 to 8 weeks from collection date to hatch. Many times these species may need to be force hatched. I have had some of the mirabilis species take up to 10 weeks to hatch. I allways remove the eggs off of tye peat before wetting. This way if they do not hatch soon or after trying to force hatch I place them back on top of the peat for further incubation. If the peat and all is placed in the water then you will loose track of the eggs and what is happening with them. At this all you can do is see if they hatch or if no fry appear!!

----------


## RonWill

Bill,

Current status of the ZIIs...
7 - in *2ft 'dump tank'*
3 - in round grow-out containers
3 - Kwek Leong's survivors (as reported in *'Disappearing Killies'*)
Total head count @ 13 fry

Hit list...
7 - MIA
2 - drainage accident
1 - bacterial infection
2 - earlier bacterial infection

----------


## ruyle

Thanks for the update, Ronnie.
I still think 13 fry beats nada  :Very Happy:  

Sent your package today by Fedex ground  :Smile:  They said it should arrive in
7 days. I had a learning curve to work thru: finally got an account number
and did everything online including the shipping label! You get a 10% discount on shipping doing it this way. Finding the dropoff place in town
took awhile since there is no signage on the roadside (long story). Hope it
meets your expectations. BTW, how did you like the tapes? I found some
parts abit mind-numbing, yet informative :wink: 

Bill
farang9

----------


## RonWill

Bill,

I've delivered 7 of the larger ZII juvenile to Kwek Leong and will be growing-out the 3 in my 'dump tank'.

Current status of the ZIIs...
3 - in *2ft 'dump tank'*
3 + 7 - under Kwek Leong's care
Total head count @ 13 fry

The juvenile have not color-up yet, so I've no idea what to look for... but here're some pics. Perhaps you can tell the difference?

7 ZII delivered to Kwek Leong on May 1st 2004


Pic of 4 juvenile ZII


Closeup view of largest juvenile at almost 2cm


another closeup of 2nd largest juvenile... female?? (belly seems fuller)


I'll post updates of the 3 under my care, when they start coloring-up.

Kwek Leong, I've been feeling jittery about the 10 ZII juvenile in your uncovered tank. Please try to put something over it, or at least reduce the water level.

Ap. BITs have proven to me many times that they can clear 6" and I'm sure the ZIIs are good jumpers too!




> Sent your package today by Fedex ground They said it should arrive in 7 days.


Bill, I'm impressed that the controller card arrived in 2½ days, considering it was sent via 'International Economy'. Please advise courier charges when you receive the monthly statement.




> BTW, how did you like the tapes? I found some parts abit mind-numbing, yet informative.


I've gone through the tapes. Very interesting but I'll have to KIV the Henri filter till later. Am in the midst of setting up separate permanent tanks for the killies.

*Image links edited 051205* *ZII's album*

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie, you've done an excellent job with these! They look very well fed and healthy! I too, hope the 2 largest are male and female.
 :Cool:  
Bill

----------


## RonWill

Bill, the 3 ZIIs under my care are about 2.5cm and the largest looks like a male, with some colors at the anal fin. The 2 slightly smaller juvenile have yet to color up but I'm hoping for a trio.

The ZIIs were moved to a permanent setup, sharing it with 2 trios of _Ap. BIT_ 'Ijebu Ode', 4 _Rivulus_ XIP, a trio of _Ps. annulatus_, 2 Blue-eye juvenile, 2 otos, 4 young _Corydoras pygmaeus_ and about 10 ramhorn snails!

Two nights ago, I think, Rashid came over and help scooped up what looks like a 1cm ZII fry, with another smaller 5mm bugger scooting out of sight real quick!

I caught the little fella this morning but am holding my excitment until it grows a little bigger (but both fry looks like ZII  :Exclamation:  ).

Here's a pic of their new home on May 10th, before the ZIIs moved in.

Large pic and the rest of the tanks at this page.

I'm hoping also, to hear more good news from Kwek Leong :wink:

*Image links edited 051205* *ZII's album*

----------


## ruyle

Handsome quarters for some beautiful fish, Ronnie! Really like the mangrove-looking stump and the val. Taking a spin throught the pages
of your other tanks: who says you don't know anything about aquascaping?  :Laughing:  They all look pretty nice to me...Is there going to be some sort of cover for the tank? Maybe with enough plant cover it won't be necessary.

Best regards,

Bill
farang9

----------


## RonWill

Flattery isn't get you anywhere Bill  :Laughing:  but it helps when the Mrs. is versed in Ikebana. I was hoping to use the 'stump' in another wider tank, so I can achieve what Kim has illustrated in this post.

I'm aiming for a setup that's densely planted so it'll be condusive for the killies to spawn and places for fry to hide. Plan to add more floaters + a removable 'Euro bracing' to deter 'kamakazi killies' (ie. a 2-inch wide plexiglass sitting on the perimeter of the tank's top rim).

If this setup works, then we can look forward to the next generation of ZII without all the work! :wink:

----------


## timebomb

> I'm hoping also, to hear more good news from Kwek Leong :wink:


I'm afraid I don't have any good news to report, Ronnie. My ZIIs are quite big now and I'm quite certain there are at least 2 males and 2 females. I thought I saw a fry the other day but it turned out to be a stunted fish from the first batch of eggs Bill sent. My plant is not heavily planted but its surface is densely covered with Hornwort. The fish although healthy don't seem too happy sometimes. I see clamped fins quite often. I'm beginning to suspect they prefer acidic water so I wonder if I should transfer them into a tank using ADA soil as substrate. What do you think?

Loh K L

----------


## ruyle

KL,
A thin layer of peat for the substrate might be good. Or those almond leaves that you SG folks use. And a de Bruyn filter that naturally makes
the water more acidic (over time), alongwith java moss, java fern, hornwort, to seclude them. Just a suggestion....  :Idea:  

Bill 
farang9

----------


## ruyle

KL,
I forgot to place a smiley after "de Bruyn filter." Of course, there's other
ways to make the water more acidic, including using drops of muriatic
acid  :Laughing:  I've been using well-seasoned and drowned oak leaves in a
few tanks that add tannins to the water which is not a severe as peat. I
have a massive 6 and 1/2 foot thick-at-the-base oak tree in my front yard
that the landlord said was probably around during the civil war (1860-1865)

Best of luck with the fish, KL, and are we going to see some pictures, soon? :wink: 

Bill
farang9

----------


## timebomb

> KL, and are we going to see some pictures, soon?


In good time, my friend. 

The fish are still too young to have their pictures taken. There are some colours but they are nothing like what we saw in KillifishDavid's picture. 

Thanks for the tips on how to make the water acidic. I have a bunch of Ketapang leaves lying around but I rarely use them. I don't like the idea of the water turning a dark brown colour. The fish may love it but I like them in clear water where I can see them clearly. I'll be moving the fish around soon. I have too many species but too few tanks. When I move one species to a new tank, it starts a domino effect and many fish will have to move house too. 

It's interesting what you wrote about the big oak tree outside your house. Here in Singapore, such old trees are rare. It wasn't too long ago the authorities here thoughtlessly chop down trees in the name of development. But things have improved somewhat. I'm a land surveyor and nowadays when we do topographical surveys, we have to indicate the girth of trees in our maps. Any tree with a girth of more than 1 metre is deemed worthy of preservation. Before, we don't even show trees in our maps at all. The bulldozers when they go in will just bulldoze everything out of the way. Those were the bad old days. 

Loh K L

----------


## A.Rashid

KL,

The fastest way to drop the pH down is to use ADA soil. All my apisto tank are using this which goes as low as pH 4.5 for my a.bitaeniata pair and the rest on average of 5-5.5. ADA soil normally drops the pH to about 5.5-6.5 and if you have drift woods and other items that produce tanin then it will drop further.

The best part about ADA soil is that the pH wont drop drastically but gradually so fish wont be pH shocked and aso water will not trun brown but clear.

Of course ADA soil is a bit too expensive cheapest in the market for a 9kg pack is about S$36. but there are also taiwan and china ones which are also cheaper and works too. If I'm not mistaken about S$13-15 for a pack of 5kg.

I am not trying to promote ADA product but just to let others know what ADA soil can do for you for softwater fishes.

----------


## RonWill

> I thought I saw a fry the other day but it turned out to be a stunted fish from the first batch of eggs Bill sent


Kwek Leong, I'm confused. What first batch from Bill are you referring to? Are these ZIIs also?? If not, may I humbly suggest you label the tanks, just so you know which species previously occupied it... lest you find stowaways.

I now have the habit of putting plants into 'quarantine' and if that's not possible, then whatever new killie additions *must* be a different genus.

*Example:* There's a 4footer that's stuffed with AUS brown which I'll be clearing to the LFS. When it's empty, instead of introducing another line of AUS, I'll dump my Ps. annulatus into it. Any hidden AUS eggs or fry can be safely retrieved later without messing up the population codes.

As for ZIIs preferring acidic water, I have this observation to share. Both the tannic water and lower pH (between 5.5~6.0, according to my Merck pH test strips) have a positive effect on the ZIIs, _Ap. BIT_ Ijebu Ode and _Ps. annulatus_. Try the ADA'ed tank and post your observations.




> I'll be moving the fish around soon. I have too many species but too few tanks


 Have you considered combining different genus of killies together? The _Aphyosemions_ can always share with say, Rivulus or the medakas.

IME, in any tank swap, I'm almost 100% certain that stowaways will appear.

----------


## RonWill

> The fish although healthy don't seem too happy sometimes. I see clamped fins quite often.Loh K L


Just noticed this...

Clamped fins is something that really bothers me and it could be bacterial, which have nothing to do with pH... that was how I lost Tom's PRI  :Crying:

----------


## timebomb

I took some pictures of the fish this afternoon. Here's one of the better ones:



Loh K L

----------


## RonWill

Kwek Leong, I can see this particular ZII coloring up nicely. How are the others doing?

I notice that there's a discrepancy in the "eyeball to tip-of-mouth" distance. Do me a favor, make close observations of your sub-adults and update me on how many of each (with pointy and blunt mouth).

*Click to expand image if you're unclear about what I'm referring to.*

This 2 pics taken 040501 and has that same discrepancy. Unsure if this is a sexual dimorphism (ie. difference between sexes)
*Male ZII?*

*Female ZII?*



Bill, here're some pics of the 3 under my care (clickable thumbnails);




Hopefully, we don't have to wait too long for these fellas to mature :wink:

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie, it would sure be nice if the pointy nose ones were males and the
blunt nose, females. KL's great pic shows a male with a pointy nose, no
doubts about it  :Cool:  

As a sidebar, I would like to see a thread on pointers for fish photography
by you, KL, Au, etc, such as lighting, lens settings, shutter speeds, and
anything else that makes your pictures come out great. Still experimenting
with my new external flash, haven't been pleased with the pics so far  :Sad:  

Regards,

Bill
farang9

----------


## RonWill

> ...it would sure be nice if the pointy nose ones were males and the blunt nose, females.


YES Bill, I'm glad you caught on and that's what I'm hoping for too! If this were true, then I ought to have a trio with me (crossing me fingers!) but since I gave the larger ZIIs to Kwek Leong, I'll have to wait for mine to color up, to better differentiate their sexes.




> As a sidebar, I would like to see a thread on pointers for fish photography by you, KL, Au, etc, such as lighting, lens settings, shutter speeds, and anything else that makes your pictures come out great


 I'm sure you've visited my '*Photo Page*' and it's nothing to shout about. The camera in use is an idiot-proof entry-level P&S (Point & Shoot) and the biggest advantage of digital is the facility to view the pics on your monitor and delete those you hate. Best of all, it's very economical compared to analog 35mm film-based photography. I logged over 5k shots with the camera since 12th Sept '03 and would be dead broke if I had to process all these prints!

BTW, your pics are ok. We all need the practice anyway! :wink:

----------


## timebomb

Bill, Ronnie,

I'm afraid I have bad news. I think Ronnie's are all males. I'm reluctant to report this but I actually had something like 4 females. All but one died. The females seem to be suffering from some strange disorder. The bodies are out-of-shape. They seem to have very well endowed bosoms.

Here's a picture of the last female. 



Loh K L

----------


## ruyle

KL,
When I saw the earlier picture of one of the juveniles with this problem, I
knew that it would have to be culled. I didn't want to tell you and break the
euphoria...this swelling could be from tumors caused by bacteria, or viruses (as Ronnie has mentioned). I'm not up on fish physiology but this swelling is behind what I would think the throat (thyroid) would be, which could have been treated with potassium iodide. If Ronnie has all males, it looks like I'd better see if David has some eggs for sale. :wink: 

Please don't be discouraged, there's a reason why these are rare in the
hobby.

Regards,

Bill

----------


## timebomb

> it looks like I'd better see if David has some eggs for sale. :wink:


Bill, the eggs are too highly-priced. Please don't buy any more for us but if you want to hatch them yourself, please feel free to do so. I feel terribly guilty having fail to raise the next generation from the eggs you sent.

Loh K L

----------


## ruyle

Kwek Leong,
Please don't feel guilty, these are *not* an easy specie or everybody would have these. I find the tumorous swelling in the pectoral area as
baffling as you do, particularly since it only seems to affect the females.
Gives rise to the wonder of how David is doing with these, how many
females to males in the ratio that survive. They are currently not offered
by David on Aquabid, but I will be talking to him.

You and Ronnie can at least enjoy the beauty of the males, in the interim.

Regards,

Bill
farang9

----------


## ruyle

KL, if the female is still living, please quarantine and do the following:

(this is from the master himself *Wright* who says he stole it from
Untergasser)

1. Make a stock solution by adding 0.5g iodine plus 5g of potassium iodide
to 100cc of water.
2. Use 1 drop per 5 liters of water which will be re-added at each water
change. 
3. No carbon filtering

Takes 2-4 weeks for this goiterism to disappear. He also thinks it's weird
that it has affected only the females.

Bill
farang9

----------


## timebomb

> Make a stock solution by adding 0.5g iodine plus 5g of potassium iodide to 100cc of water.


Oh geez, where am I going to get this stuff? Anyone know? 

Loh K L

----------


## RonWill

> Oh geez, where am I going to get this stuff? Anyone know?


Kwek Leong, there's a chemical supplier in the same factory building I work in. Will pop him an email and report back here.

In the mean time, here's a *FAQ on Potassium Iodide (KI)* and relevant info on Iodine at;
http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/elements/53.html
http://www.webelements.com/webelemen...ext/I/key.html
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/foo...ion/iodine.php
http://www.scescape.net/~woods/elements/iodine.html

----------


## whuntley

> KL, if the female is still living, please quarantine and do the following:
> 
> (this is from the master himself *Wright* who says he stole it from
> Untergasser)
> 
> 1. Make a stock solution by adding 0.5g iodine plus 5g of potassium iodide
> to 100cc of water.
> 2. Use 1 drop per 5 liters of water which will be re-added at each water
> change. 
> ...


Bill,

Since communicating with you, off forum, about this, I have had several second thoughts.

Aren't the guys who are having this trouble the same ones who keep and breed various shrimps? I have never gotten shrimp or crayfish to reproduce without ample iodides, either in their water or their foods. That suggests that SG water (unlike for those of us from ice-age glacial regions) maybe has plenty of iodine, already?

The US has mandated "iodized salt" because the glaciers melted and washed all our best solubles into the oceans. Our soil is, therefore, deficient. That means much home-grown food is also iodine deficient.

Not only am I puzzled by the females being the only ones affected, the location of the swelling looks too far back to be a swollen thyroid. Most fish thyroid problems appear on the lips or just below the jaw. This bulge looks to be aft of the operculum, which is as far back as thyroid swelling usually happens (usually just below the gill covers).

We may not be able to get iodine, here, readily, because the kids learned in chemistry class how to make a fine explosive with it. [Our version of the nanny state thinks you can prevent stuff by keeping the ingredients away. For example, "Don't let teens have condoms and they won't ever have sex." Honest, they really think that way!] 

Pour ammonium hydroxide over iodine crystals in a filtration funnel, and spread the wet mess across the floor. When it dries, it becomes a pressure sensitive explosive that is guaranteed to make the teacher jump when it is walked on. :-) The "crackle, crackle" is very satisfying to juvenile senses of humor. It isn't actually dangerous, used that way.

Legitimate users of iodine, potassium permanganate, quinine, and a whole long list of useful materials is denied us, here, by bureacratic nannies who make such rules in blatant defiance of what used to be our constitution. 

OT Aside: Ben Franklin warned us, over 200 years ago, that "Those who would trade a little freedom for a little safety will end up with neither." I'm irritated that it prevents me from the peaceful pursuit of my hobby, and frequently remind my designated congressfool just how angry I am. The effect is something like vigorously kicking a six-foot wall of foam rubber. Stand back, when winded, and observe that nothing has changed.  :Smile:  

Back OT: Do not throw any of those females with lumps away, please. If you can't do the necropsy, dunk it in some Formalin or alcohol and send to someone who can. I bet we can get Dr. Barry Cooper to have a look at one, and give us an opinion. Barry is former head of the Dept. of Veterinary Pathology at Cornell, and currently teaches at Oregon State U. I think he and David are fairly close to each other, so he could help get the cure to the source, if need be.

Dr. Cooper also can get more elaborate analysis done for moderate cost-covering fees, sometimes. It can be a useful service to keep in mind.

Good luck with the remaining ZIIs.

Wright

PS. Has anyone suspected internal parasites and tried an anti-helmenthic on them? Might be worth hitting them with some flubendazole or similar worming med.

----------


## ruyle

Wright wrote:




> PS. Has anyone suspected internal parasites and tried an anti-helmenthic on them? Might be worth hitting them with some flubendazole or similar worming med.



Wright,
I, too, thought it was too far back for a thyroid problem and using flubendazole would definitely be worth a try. KL, do you happen to
have some of this? Or praziquantel?

Bill
farang9

----------


## RonWill

> Back OT: Do not throw any of those females with lumps away, please. If you can't do the necropsy, dunk it in some Formalin or alcohol and send to someone who can


Wright, afraid I'll *never* contemplate a job in the morgue or working with cadaver***, but since I concoct my own record cleaning fluid, will Isopropyl alcohol (IPA) do?
*** They use Formalin to preserve the human flesh as well... don't they??  :Shocked:  




> Barry is former head of the Dept. of Veterinary Pathology at Cornell, and currently teaches at Oregon State U. I think he and David are fairly close to each other, so he could help get the cure to the source, if need be.


David is either busy or preparing to be an expectant father but it'd be informative to have his imput.




> Dr. Cooper also can get more elaborate analysis done for moderate cost-covering fees, sometimes.


What $ damage are we looking at?

FWIW, I went through my reference and couldn't find a potential cause but these ZIIs were never put through flubendazole treatment.

----------


## whuntley

> Originally Posted by whuntley
> 
> Back OT: Do not throw any of those females with lumps away, please. If you can't do the necropsy, dunk it in some Formalin or alcohol and send to someone who can
> 
> 
> Wright, afraid I'll *never* contemplate a job in the morgue or working with cadaver***, but since I concoct my own record cleaning fluid, will Isopropyl alcohol (IPA) do?
> *** They use Formalin to preserve the human flesh as well... don't they??  
> 
> 
> ...


Formalin is just an old trade name (now public domain, like Aspirin) for 37% formaldehyde solution. Yes, it is used to preserve human rermains. Pathologists prefer that you use this wicked carcinogen. I guess they are used to the smell.  :Sad:  

In modern biology, this causes all kinds of grief, for it is a powerful tanning agent. It alters the DNA irretreivably. Ethanol is the alcohol of choice for causing the least damage to tissue and DNA. [It is so wrapped in red tape by the old US prohibitionist laws that it is almost impossible to get, here.]

Right across the border in Tijuana, MX it is cheap and plentiful. Vodka or Gin would no-doubt work for short storage. 151 proof rum? IDK how good isopropyl (propanol-2) would be. Don't use the rubbing alcohol with lanolin added. :-) Methanol is another tanning agent, so avoid it.

I don't recall exact costs for the University analyses, but it seems they did some pretty fancy stuff for less than US$50. 

Cheers (obligatory parting comment, considering the grim subject matter! :wink: )

Wright

----------


## timebomb

> [Our version of the nanny state thinks you can prevent stuff by keeping the ingredients away. For example, "Don't let teens have condoms and they won't ever have sex." Honest, they really think that way!]


Wright, we live in a country where chewing gum is banned. So rest assure we understand your frustration with a nanny state  :Laughing: .

I don't know the relation between iodine in the water and shrimp breeding but my shrimps multiply in great numbers in my planted tanks. As for the observation I made - that only females are affected - I could be wrong about this. I've never seen a confirmed ZII female, not even in pictures. I think they are females only because they don't have colours on their bodies but it could be they are still young. 

As for internal parasites, I'm quite sure that's not the problem. I don't know why some of my ZII's exhibit Dolly Parton-like chests but other than that, there are no other symptoms. They have good appetites and swim normally just like the other ZII's with less well-endowed bosoms. If the fish should expire, I'll preserve the body and send it to Barry. I don't have any formalin at home but I'll keep the body in the mortuary (the freezer in my fridge) until I get some. 

Never thought that I may send a fish's body for autopsy but we live and learn  :Laughing: .

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

> KL, do you happen to have some of this? Or praziquantel?


Bill, I have flubendazole. I'll medicate the fish with it but I don't think it's a problem of internal parasites. No harm trying, I suppose. I've already lost about 4 ZIIs and the last remaining infected fish will probably die too if I don't do anything.

Loh K L

----------


## RonWill

> I think Ronnie's are all males...


Kwek Leong, I'm glad you returned one confirmed male under my care or I'd still be waiting for the other 3 to color up. With your male and my largest ZII (both fishes of the same size), it becoming obvious that mine *may* be all females  :Exclamation:  (no wonder there's no nice color!  :Confused:  ) On a brighter note, mine don't need 'D-cups' for their bosoms  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  

For the Iodine & Potassium iodide, the supplier replied, "Enough stock to last you 2 lifetimes. Happy fishing"... but he forgot to tell me the price or packaging. So how should I proceed from here?

Bill, going by the looks of things, I *may* have 1 male and 3 females. Will be setting up spawning tank for a trio later today.

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie wrote:




> Bill, going by the looks of things, I *may* have 1 male and 3 females. Will be setting up spawning tank for a trio later today.


Ronnie, that is hopefully great news indeed! Is the blunt-nose/pointy-nose
a reliable sexing trait? Curious how that came out.....

Best of luck to you!  :Very Happy:  

Bill
farang9

----------


## whuntley

Hi all,

I was doing a bit of reading on this species, this morning.

They come from a relatively arid section of coastal Sierra Leone which leads me to engage in a little wild a** speculation. :wink: 

Since their area of narrow rain forest and mostly savannah gets less than half the rain of places like the Niger Delta, and only one -- not two rainy seasons, they may be used to considerably harder water than is common for fish farther south and particularly East of the Dahomey Gap.

David calls them a Lampeye, which I don't think they are, but that suggests something else. I have had best results with Lampeyes with moving water over eggs and high oxygen at all times. High oxygen is difficult with really warm water, but could be worth a try. 

I have put eggs in a plastic seive and run bubbles up under it. The bubbles flowed around the outside and not up through the eggs, but the constant water motion was good, I think. I have also just put a rigid airline to the bottom of a pilsner conical glass and kept the eggs bubbled into suspension, that way. [Others have built little egg tumblers as vertical cylinders like a hamster exerciser, driven by air.]

Based on my brief reading, and lacking any contradictory input from those actually hatching and raising good babies, I would probably try the following. Start with a bit harder water, maybe GH of 8 or 10? KH of at least 4-6. Add a pinch of salt to bring tds up to about 400-500 ppm. Provide aeration and good current for both eggs and babies.

Remember that this is pure speculation. Free advice is still worth every penny, so do your own homework, too. OK?

Wright

----------


## RonWill

> Since their area of narrow rain forest and mostly savannah gets less than half the rain of places like the Niger Delta, and only one -- not two rainy seasons, they may be used to considerably harder water than is common for fish farther south and particularly East of the Dahomey Gap.
> 
> ... I would probably try the following. Start with a bit harder water, maybe GH of 8 or 10? KH of at least 4-6. Add a pinch of salt to bring tds up to about 400-500 ppm. Provide aeration and good current for both eggs and babies.


Hi Wright,
I'm quite undecided how start spawning the ZIIs... whether to let KL's male join a harlem*** in this tank... (*** 3 females, I'm *80%* sure)

... or transfer a 1M/3F group to another tank with the parameters you've suggested.

Before I do anything else, here's the latest pic of the largest alleged female.


and this is Kwek Leong's male... (difference should be quite obvious, no?)


Bill, the blunt/pointy theory isn't proven just yet because the 3 still doesn't show any color.

----------


## whuntley

> Originally Posted by whuntley
> 
> 
> ... I would probably try the following. Start with a bit harder water, maybe GH of 8 or 10? KH of at least 4-6. Add a pinch of salt to bring tds up to about 400-500 ppm. Provide aeration and good current for both eggs and babies.
> 
> 
> Hi Wright,
> I'm quite undecided how start spawning the ZIIs... whether to let KL's male join a harlem*** in this tank... (*** 3 females, I'm *80%* sure)
> 
> ... or transfer a 1M/3F group to another tank with the parameters you've suggested..


If their present tank has plenty of cover, it may be safest to introduce the male to the females' familiar territory. The probability of jumping out will increase dramatically when the male is added, so be sure the tank is tightly covered at all times. 

A very common problem with trios (or more females) is one female following a breeding pair and eating every single egg as it is laid.

With three, it can only be more likely that this useful (to the second female) reproductive strategy will happen. It doesn't work in favor of a hobbyist interested in production, so watch carefully for it. [With non-schooling fishes, I usually prefer one pair per tank.]

This, of course, is all from one with zero experience with this species and with only about four or five Epis, total. Take it with a grain of salt. 

No, rather, give that grain to the fish.  :Smile: 

Wright

----------


## RonWill

> If their present tank has plenty of cover, it may be safest to introduce the male to the females' familiar territory.


Wright, I have my own reasoning to that, but I'd like to listen to your version why that would be so.

When the tank's picture was taken, I've lifted off all the acrylic 'Euro-bracings'*** and other adjoining pieces, so it's not really as open-concept as I would have liked.
*** Have a pic of the acrylic bracing somewhere, will upload when I can find it  :Confused:  




> A very common problem with trios (or more females) is one female following a breeding pair and eating every single egg as it is laid.


Besides the 2 other 'female' ZIIs, there's about 6 ANNs, 2 trios of BIT Ijebu Ode, 4 XIPs and a few _Corydoras pygmaeus_. If I need worry about egg eating or fry predation, I best move the breeding pair elsewhere and perhaps with a few egg-friendly Cherry Shrimps (unless the ZII fry can hide as well as the 2 baby ANNs I scooped out the other day).




> No, rather, give that grain to the fish.


Kosher or marine? :wink:

Kwek Leong, so how should I proceed with the Iodine & Potassium iodide?

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie wrote:




> Kwek Leong, so how should I proceed with the Iodine & Potassium iodide?


Ronnie, I'm for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" on this. None of the remaining fish have this pectoral deformity, do they? Wright makes a good point that SG water probably has enough iodine if you are keeping healthy shrimp. For higher oxygenated water, now would be a good time to try a de Bruyn filter (has 27% more oxygenation over a sponge filter) or use a back filter with a bio-wheel to increase the oxygen level. :wink: 

Best of luck!

Bill
farang9

----------


## RonWill

Bill & Wright,
I did a big water change and let the male ZII join the harlem. The following pics should be encouraging :wink: 

 Returned male ZII from Kwek Leong

 Curious female ZII hears of a new stud in town

 Female hides... playing hard to get

 She "Oh well..."

 Meanwhile, the 'other' girl...

 Shall we?

 We should! (followed by a quick sprint)

 ... and around the corner they disappear...

ok guys, your guess is as good as mine :wink: (how's that for suspense??  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  )

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie, great pictures! But....I thought this was a family site! You can't
show pictures of fish boom-booming, can you?  :Laughing:  Also, that's "harem"
not "harlem," though the eggs could be called "globe-trotters." :wink: 

Lets keep our fingers crossed!

Bill
farang9

----------


## RonWill

Hi Bill, application to upgrade site rating from 'G' to 'RA-18' is being reviewed but while the ZIIs are doing their 'groupie-thingie', it really doesn't matter to them whether it's 'harem' or 'harlem', does it? :wink: 

Since the male has settled in very nicely, I decided to shoot more pics hoping to see the much-revelled colors. Instead, I saw a sore-butt.

Will be treating tank with Levamisole hydrochloride once I hear of Kwek Leong's observations.

----------


## ruyle

Ron wrote:




> Hi Bill, application to upgrade site rating from 'G' to 'RA-18' is being reviewed but while the ZIIs are doing their 'groupie-thingie', it really doesn't matter to them whether it's 'harem' or 'harlem', does it? :wink:


You're right, how picky of me  :Laughing:  





> Will be treating tank with Levamisole hydrochloride once I hear of Kwek Leong's observations.


Kenny mentions a product by Avian Science (levamisole/praziquantel combo) that would be wonderful to try in this instance. We're not talking
"surgical strikes" but a shotgun hit of meds that will knock out any flatworms, flukes, trematodes, etc, that you have in your tanks. Nice med
to have around as a super dewormer!  :Cool:  

Bill
farang9

----------


## RonWill

Bill,

Someone wants to say hello...


The male from Kwek Leong is now about 6.5cm but he's not very interested in having sex  :Confused:  Females are just slightly smaller. Hmm... is there a viagra for fish?

Trio resides in one of the partitions in the main rack and I'll see if gut-loaded*** adult brine shrimp will perk them up. Mop is empty, not even a fungused egg. Don't suppose these guys spawn in peat, do ya??

*** astaxanthin & spirulina

----------


## ruyle

Wow, Ronnie, nice pic!!!  :Surprised:  

Placing some peat in the bottom of their bungalow couldn't hurt. What's 
their "room" temperature?

----------


## RonWill

Bill,

Dammit...

Now I know why my Cherry shrimp population is dropping like flies...




The shrimp is easily 1cm and going by current prices at the LFS, that's a .80cent snack!

oh well... if the shrimp gets his libido up... I suppose it's worth it  :Laughing:

----------


## stormhawk

Ron, I'd be wary if I was you. The ZII might choke on the whole shrimp. I lost a fish to choking once.

----------


## whuntley

Ronnie,

My *general* experience with shrimps and crawdads is that they molt.

When they molt, they are soft and vulnerable.

Killies are very fond of "soft-shell-crab" style dinner.

Only tanks with unusually-good hiding places tend to have survivors over any long period of time.

I just plain gave up, and decided to only keep such crustaceans in species tanks, and still provided good hiding crevices for the more cannibalistic crayfish.

Wright

----------


## stormhawk

Okay I know the thread's a little old but time for a pic update and here's one of a pair of the zimiensis. I hope I did them justice. :wink: 



Click on the pic to see a larger picture. The actual size is just a tad bit bigger than the limit allowed.

----------


## ruyle

Jian Yang, I was browsing the threads today and saw this--nice pics! I 
wonder if any eggs are in their horoscope  :Think:

----------


## stormhawk

Hi Bill,

The pics were taken over at Ron's place, where the fish are currently residing. I don't think they've given any eggs yet.

----------


## PL

Hi all,

i receive two couples from David three weeks ago, and start collecting eggs almost immediately. I'm collecting 6-8 eggs each 5 week and i'm looking forward to raise the first fry.

One of the things i notice was that there is a strong competition from the two males. One of them is more territorial, bigger, but it's the other one that i usually see spawing with the females. 

Maybe whats missing in your tanks is some male competition  :Confused:  

Paulo

----------


## RonWill

> i receive two couples from David three weeks ago, and start collecting eggs almost immediately...


Welcome to the forum Paulo. Nice to know another killie-keeper who has an interest in _Epiplatys_ and working on the ZII (_zimiensis_).

The ZII trio in our database was a 'gift of eggs' from Bill and I suspect we both are maintaining the same stock. I've made several attempts to spawn the ZII's but may have gone about it wrong.

Research on the internet points to relatively high pH8 while my tank water is around pH6~6·5 (my main interest is Chromaphyosemions). In Wright's earlier post, he reasons that since the ZII's were collected near costal areas, hard-alkaline water may be the key to trigger spawning.

You said, "_6-8 eggs each 5 week_"... is that 6~8 eggs each week or every 5 weeks? How are you incubating them;, over peat or in water? In your experience and with your weather, how long is the incubation time?

I'll be converting one of my tanks to brackish parameters and will attempt the ZII spawning under these conditions. Will update as I progress.

BTW, I'd appreciate it if you can update the location entry in your membership profile. Thanks!

----------


## ruyle

Hi Paulo, congrats on getting eggs! I'm thinking you mean 6-8 eggs every 5 days, correct? What I find puzzling is Dave's water source is soft and acid as memory serves. I'm wondering if he doctored up the water he uses to breed these  :Think:  

I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see pics of your pairs, fry! If you live
in Portugal, how did Dave ship the live pairs over? Curious.

----------


## PL

Hi

Yes, i meant 5 days. The eggs are all eyed up, and i'm really looking forward to raising fry.

These zimiensis are from "Faimah" SL89, following Dave's indications, and so they are the same as the ones you are trying to raise there. Here in Portugal there is another population of zimiensis: "Perie" SL89, very beautiful and quite different from the ones we've got from Dave.

I'll post later a detailed description on water condition.

These fish were the first ones i decided to buy from overseas, and i must say that Dave's work was wonderful. A really good surprise (thanks Dave). Every fish in it's own bag, plenty of space, etc. etc. Obviously i also payed for the faster shipping method avaiable.

Paulo

----------


## PL

Hi again

As promised here are the key factors im my set up for the Ep. fasciolatus zimiensis.

T - 21oC
pH - 4.5
GH - 17

2 males and 2 females (lack of space to separate couples at arrival).

lots of java moss (i guess??) and a mop.
All the eggs collected so far were in the mop.

Paulo

----------


## stormhawk

The location map for Zimmi (type location for this subspecies), shows that it is quite close to the coast.

Here's a link to a map. Town circled in red.

Multimap - Zimmi, southern Sierra Leone

There isn't a town called Perie in the vicinity of Zimmi, but there is one town just a little to the south called Periwahun. There isn't a Faimah either and the closest a town name gets to Faimah is one called Fanima, which is a little to the north of Periwahun. All localities shown in the map url above.

----------


## hwchoy

> There isn't a Faimah either and the closest a town name gets to Faimah is one called Fanima, which is a little to the north of Periwahun. All localities shown in the map url above.


there is a Faima, apparently a town of about 5,000. This site also list three different Fanima (some with spelling variations).

----------


## stormhawk

Just to add some new info.

Was surfing Vasco Gomes's great code library online and found this entry on the code SL-89.

Code SL-89 Country: Sierra Leone

Apparently this fish is not Ep. fasciolatus zimiensis, but rather Ep. fasciolatus fasciolatus. The location Faimah is attributed to the Ep. f. fasciolatus not zimiensis. I will amend the census data accordingly even though this species was lost a few months back.

----------


## RonWill

Jian Yang,
My practice is in keeping to the names/location originally provided by the seller and to whom I'll direct required verification.
 
Unless the discrepancy was a typo or human oversight, it would be difficult to trace backwards (as per Karl's _Ap bitaeniatum_ 'Ojube-Ode' instead of 'Ijebu-Ode').

I would suggest, if the Census is amended, to include footnotes and url references. That will avoid double entries and/or further confusion.

While I lost the _zimiensis_ (we'll take the name as is, for now), another forumer will be receiving his pairs soon.

----------


## RonWill

I wasn't sure whether to disrupt the eye-to-eye exchanges *posted earlier* but from the ZII fry/eggs received from Kee Hoe on Jan 8th 2006, the status is 19 fry in 2 growout containers and a few more good eggs. The older fry are doing well and approx 5mm now.

Bill, hopefully we get a better chance of establishing the species than our previous attempt.

----------


## keehoe

Ron, thats the first mass eggs production of the species after extended period of conditioning. ( You have more fry then me now. )

So good luck with that.

----------


## RonWill

> You have more fry then me now


 Kee Hoe,
Maybe I should have been more specific. It's not 19 fry in each container but a total of 19.

After you've collected the yarn, let's see if green works better than blue.

----------


## ruyle

> Bill, hopefully we get a better chance of establishing the species than our previous attempt.


Good luck, Ronnie!  :Smile:  

Bill

----------


## keehoe

Ron, no matter how you count. You still have higher number of swiming creature having "ZII" mark on their forehead. I have 2 pair and about 8 fry of various size.

Not sure which colour works best but i am sure that electric blue looks more striking in photo.  :Laughing:  


Also purchase some smaller live food than the one you gave me. But contaminated with ants.  :Rolling Eyes:  

ZII female love the sleeping worm right before they turn into beetle. 

Seems to have a lot of "dust" comes out from its mouth as ZII chew on it.

----------


## RonWill

Kee Hoe,
There were some small round things that were stuck to the moss which I thought were eggs. Not sure what they are but 19 should be the final count. At a later time, I intend to sort them according to size and raise them in 3 growout containers. 




> Also purchase some smaller live food than the one you gave me. But contaminated with ants


 If you need another mealworm starter, collect it together with the yarn. Did you manage to find the lotus-seed worm? I'd like to try culturing these too.

By 'sleeping worm', I think you're referring to the pupae or defined as "The nonfeeding stage between the larva and adult in the metamorphosis of holometabolous insects, during which the larva typically undergoes complete transformation within a protective cocoon or hardened case"

I would not suggest feeding pupae to the ZIIs as the insect's casing might cause digestional problems.

----------


## keehoe

Ron, the Lotus-seed beetle is what i refering to. Much smaller in size. Thats the one that is contaminated. They grow fast. Now i separated them into 3 container.

The meal worm is tough. Have not tried feeding them to any fish yet. But bird. While i was taking shelter from the monsoon rain at your house. One pigeon drop by my house and his whole body were wet. Tried putting some worm in small container and put it near him. 

After the rain stop, he seems to like my fish tank too much and stand on top of the partition where i keep my D.CYA.

So, no choice. Chase him out. (Since the rain had stop.)

Anyway, manage to get petri dish?

----------


## keehoe

Add another photo of these jewel.

----------


## RonWill

Just a quick update. Out of 19 fry growing out, I lost 2 probably due to sibling predation.

In the 1st growout container, originally with 10 fry, the largest is about 1.5cm and smallest, at 4mm. Quite a discrepancy, I'd say. Last count during yesterday's water change was 8 and have transferred 2 smaller siblings to the 2nd container. Bal = 6.

2nd growout now holds the original 9 fry (that hatched later) plus 2 transferees = 11 fry.

All 17 fry have good appetites but tend to hide amongst the floaters and hornwort. If I find substantial size difference at next water change, there's a 3rd growout container on standby.

Kee Hoe, how are those breeders doing?

----------


## keehoe

Mmmm, i think i have more fry than you now. Didn't actually count but i just had a 100% hatch rate when i came back from chinese new year. The breeding group have been feeding on new born fry until i am back from malaysia and remove the mop from their tank. That adds about 19 fry to my count.

The tanks are infested with hydra. Having move them to separate plastic tank and away from the chiller realise that they doing OK without the chiller. You still have that things that kill hydra? 

3 of the older fry grown to 1.2 inch in size and by the look of it. Two confirm male and one possibily female. The one that grow fastest is the one that accidentally hatched in lampeyes tank together with group of malayian shrimp. It manage to survive lampeyes attack and now is the king of the tank. During my absence, he feed on the malayian shrimp in the tank and left me with a few dead corpse when i am back.

----------


## RonWill

> You still have that things that kill hydra?


 Kee Hoe, another friend just experienced hydra and I suggested he use Seachem's Prime but it didn't quite work (contradictory to Wright's observations). Perhaps the dosage was a tad low, maybe, but I can't be sure.

Let me check if there's flubendazole in my war-chest. Remind me again as I'll surely forget. Not much left, I suspect, but time for someone else to organize an order for more.

----------


## whuntley

Flubendazole is much more certain than dechloraminators. I think Fluke Tabs may work, OK, too, but no personal experience. Formaldehyde works, too, but must be applied for 3-5 days in succession to really do the job.

The dechlors need to be overdosed, significantly, and I know that is safe with Amquel. I'm not so comfortable overdosing Prime, so would not be inclined to do it. That is based on what my nose over the bottle tells me of its stability, despite Dr. Morin's assurances that it is perfectly stable.  :Very Happy: 

Wright

----------


## keehoe

Thanks all, i am trying PP now. Those tank turns purple colour now. Not a very big problem as there are no fry in those tank.

----------


## Steffen Hellner

Hello Dave,

what a wonderful photo of a great fish! I haven´t seen this fish that gorgeous since collecting it in Sierra leone in 1989. The location at Faimah is a pond of about 6 m in diameter, shaded by palms but still in open sunlight in most parts. Water from a small creek is running through the pond. Believe it or not, my biggest F1 grew up to 11 cm (messured on a scale outside water) in a 80 gals tank.

Your photo has reminded me how colorful this fish is and that I should get it back. It is still around in Germany. But your fish looks so outstanding, may be I call you on my next trip to the USA.

Best,
Steffen

----------


## RonWill

> In the 1st growout container, originally with 10 fry, the largest is about 1.5cm and smallest, at 4mm. Quite a discrepancy, I'd say. Last count during yesterday's water change was 8 and have transferred 2 smaller siblings to the 2nd container. Bal = 6.
> 
> 2nd growout now holds the original 9 fry (that hatched later) plus 2 transferees = 11 fry


 Kee Hoe, Bill, et al,
A quick update during water change, status quo unchanged.

11 juvenile from the 2nd growout tray now join 6 smaller Fp. GAR Lafia in a 2ft tank. The 6 larger siblings are approx 1.5" and I have another 2ft setup waiting for them.

Hi Steffen,
Glad you're still with us. Could you elaborate more about the ZII's habitat (at Faimah). From the collection notes, what were the temps and water parameters like? (I see that Tim has updated the page with a new pic from Pat but still no Faimah?)

If your F1 can reach 11cm (gosh, what did you feed them!), I ought to find a larger home for mine.

----------


## Steffen Hellner

Hi Wright and all,


>They come from a relatively arid section of coastal Sierra Leone which leads me to engage in a little wild a** speculation. :wink: 

Since their area of narrow rain forest and mostly savannah gets less than half the rain of places like the Niger Delta, and only one -- not two rainy seasons, they may be used to considerably harder water than is common for fish farther south and particularly East of the Dahomey Gap.<

Surely, the area where the Faimah come from is not rainforest but in the intersection between savannah and secondary rainforest. There is plenty of rains in this area as in most parts of SL. And we found nowhere water with a measurable hardness. The ground doesn´t contain alcaline minerals at all.

>David calls them a Lampeye, which I don't think they are, but that suggests something else. I have had best results with Lampeyes with moving water over eggs and high oxygen at all times. High oxygen is difficult with really warm water, but could be worth a try. <

They like sunlight but not too intense. Generally they are forest dwellers (as found farther east towards Liberia where the rainforest was intact) adopted to semi-open biotopes. Oxygen is not a problem as they stand under waterlilly leafs just at the surface. And there were Pelvicachromis in the same water just one level below. The water wasn´t running but slowly floating. This species can also be found in diamond digger ditches with standing water which are found everywhere in SL along the roads.

>Based on my brief reading, and lacking any contradictory input from those actually hatching and raising good babies, I would probably try the following. Start with a bit harder water, maybe GH of 8 or 10? KH of at least 4-6. Add a pinch of salt to bring tds up to about 400-500 ppm. Provide aeration and good current for both eggs and babies.<

From my experience often the right is done but from a different point of view. To me it is not that much oxygen level but absense of bacteria. The waters where Epiplatys are found in SL are extremely clear and oligotrophic. There is hardly any chance to have fungus or bacteria destroying an egg. In aquarium it is just the other way around. Simply try slightly acidic water with peat fibre or walnut leafs (these contain natural antibiotic similar to the sea-almond-tree) and a bigger bowl. Eggs of e.g. semi-annual Fundulopanchax or annual killis can withstand drastic environments without problems, most Epiplatys can´t (I only know one exception, E. ansorgii Massana, which likes eutrophic waters, doesn´t spawn in fresh water).

Thanks to all of you who keep and have kept this fish in the hobby.

Best regards,
Steffen

----------


## Steffen Hellner

Hi Ron,

>Could you elaborate more about the ZII's habitat (at Faimah). From the collection notes, what were the temps and water parameters like? (I see that Tim has updated the page with a new pic from Pat but still no Faimah?)<

The water we didnt measure at Faimah but at a nearby biotope where the same species occurred: water temp 26 °C (below surface), temp air 32 °C, pH 6.2. These data are highly representative for SL. Stagnant waters a little higher, heavy flowing waters a little less, regularly between 24 and 30).

>If your F1 can reach 11cm (gosh, what did you feed them!), I ought to find a larger home for mine.<

Two factors for this: first room to swim and secondly balanced food mix with all typical live food items, very important are flies and crickets. And to add good protein I use catfood "Purina Delicat" which is of soft consistense and can easily be broken into small pieces.

But not all Faimah grew that big, but mostly all males reached 9+ cm, the females only slightly smaller.

Steffen

----------


## RonWill

Bill, Kee Hoe, et al, 
All 17 juvenile are still around and have grown a fair bit. 6 of them are in a 48x18x18"H setup with SPP Ekondo Titi. Found some eggs in mops but not sure whose these are (I suspect it's the Ekondo's). ZIIs average 5cm in this tank.

The other 11 ZIIs are in half partition of a 48x16x10"H with Henri/Mattenfilter and water fed into this tank from the one above (it's a 2-tank recirculating setup). Temp hovers between 25~27ºC and pH6. Average size of ZIIs 4~5cm with a few large, gravid endler females. At this point, I'm undecided whether to re-introduce their 6 older siblings into the same setup. It will cut back some on maintenance but too wary of having all my eggs in one basket.

Anyway, some pics of the 11 ZII's home. It's a little dark, I think, but the plants are low-light types (don't need the heat either) and setup is supposedly low-maintenance too.


 

No sight of ZIIs when camera is in hand and ready but hope to catch them during meal times. BTW, the batch I'm raising seems to be male-heavy.

For the curious, ZIIs occupy the left partition and CRS on the right  :Wink:

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie, I think some congrats are in order for both you and Kee Hoe
resurrecting this specie! BTW, those are some nice setups in the pics  :Wink:  

Do post some more pics when you get some!  :Smile:  

Bill

----------


## RonWill

> I think some congrats are in order for both you and Kee Hoe
> resurrecting this specie


 Bill, I should be quite satisfied but I'm not. What I raised are indeed male-heavy and of the 11 ZIIs, I suspect only 3 are females.

I've also decided to transfer the remaining ZIIs from the 4ft tank but managed to catch 4 so far. All boys, I'm afraid, but very active and eating like pigs. These 4 are about 6cm and unlike Steffen, with his cat chow for protein, I use endler fry from corrupted lines and Sera's "Meat" granules. BTW, they also relish Tim Addis's coarser 'Grade 8' granules too!

All 15 of them will show their faces during meal times but I think the focusing light from my digicam scares them, so still no pics for now.

I do have a mop in there in case they get horny but at what size do these fellas start spawing? Anybody? Kee Hoe?

For the setup, I did encounter problems in getting it to look presentable. It's a very shallow tank and water column, from top of substrate to water surface, is only 6+inches or so. I was just lucky to get a rather panaromic-looking arrangement.

It's getting warm here and although the 2-tier Henri filter is running 24/7, I'm looking at 28°C during the day. More updates when available.

----------


## keehoe

Hi All, Ron becareful about tubiflex. I suspect many of the big chest disease comes from feeding too much tubiflex. 

One of the AKA publication mention about having black worm as daily food will almost always cause abnormal developement of big bossom.  :Twisted Evil:  
Lost many fry before reading that publication.

They started to breed about the size of 5cm (when i bought it).

----------


## RonWill

Folks,
I tore down the 4footer and amongst the Ekondo Titis, I could find only 1 ZII, which brings total count to 16 in the partition. Not sure what happened to the missing fella.

There are also 2 smaller and more skittish ZIIs which looks like females to me and my instinct tells me to condition them separately from the larger males (and there are many of them).




> I suspect many of the big chest disease comes from feeding too much tubiflex


 Kee Hoe, IMHO, a varied diet is still best and nothing beats tubifex for conditioning. All things in moderation though.

Since breeding season is over *[1]*, I've reduced live-food feedings, especially tubifex. Their main diet is mostly dried foods *[2]* supplimented with live daphnia.

*[1]* - It is my observation that the killies are most prolific during the Monsoon season when temps are lowered. The current warm spells and windless nights result in lots of fuzz balls but I'm sure that for those who are using chillers, the eggs will still be viable.

Degassing filtration, like the Henri wet/dry, will help too, since I'm still collecting good eggs from my Tiko Green. The temp in there fluctuates between 26~28°C.

*[2]* - I use a fair bit of Sera products, not because I'm endorsing it, but it's what I trade for with my store credit. These includes Sera Goldy, Meat, Discus Red, FD Tubifex, FD Daphnien, Flake Menu, Mikropan and Sera San flakes. Also used are Aquaz 'Golden Pearl', Tim Addis's granules, Aquarium Münster's Biofood and an assortment of algae wafers, spirulina tablets and Hikari pellets. [yup, looks like the menu for a 10-course dinner!]

These food items are either used straight or blended together with a combination of the following;
Artificial Daphnia granules, brine shrimp flakes, Cyclopeeze, FD Rote Mückenlarven and FD Cyclops. [Hope this answers all those emails regarding how I feed my fishes]

----------


## RonWill

For those still following this thread, another update.

Back-tracking a bit. Of the original 19 fry, I lost 2 (probably due to sibling predation) while in the growing out containers.

The remaining 17 were later consolidated into the 4ft partition; 11 from 2ft tank & 5 from another 4ft tank. One went MIA, bringing a balance of 16.

Conditions in the 4ft partition (half-tank) was quite favorable, I think, with good aeration flow and moderate trickle from the Henri. Temp was consistent at 26°C.

However, their temperament changed rather drastically, with the larger males becoming very aggressive; flaring like Bettas, locking jaws and a deadlock on opponent's fins. I'm not sure what caused such psychotic behavior but in the mayhem, there were 2 casualties, leaving 14.

Since I was cutting back on tanks, I thought it best to leave them to establish an 'hierarchy', and they did. All is well now, co-habitating with a few female adult Endler's livebearers. They are receptive to my presence and will take to most dry foods readily although they still relish the occasional tubifex treat.

I was distracted during feeding time yesterday and neglected a 1" gap in the cover... and sure enough, another nice crispy was added to my collection. That leaves 13.

As for gender ratio, I'm almost afraid to say this but it looks like there's only one. Another 2 which I had earlier suspected to be females turned out otherwise.

This imbalance, or skewed sex-ration, may be one reason why David and others haven't had much success in propagating them widely. I will appreciate thoughts from anyone who can throw some light, as to how I can achieve a better balance (provided I can get a viable pair from the remaining ZIIs. 12M:1F... oh good grief!!).

Kee Hoe, if your ZII pairs are doing OK (and hopefully still spawning), do keep an eye on the sex ratio. You've got viable pairs, so it may not be too late to 'repair the damage'.

Bill, that's about it. Let's hope there's better news in the next update.

----------


## keehoe

Hi All, I have lost the dominant breeding male and the second inline is not as agressive as the two female. As such, the two female is a lot bigger for this little male to spawn. 

So separated to buildup its health. After the "big chest" incident. I am down to about 10 sub adult + 2 1.5cm fry. 

Ron, i think they need more than 'hierarchy'. I have a 10litre tank with two male that were grown up together and the dominant male keep hitting the other one and hence become weaker by day.

Will try to get two big size male from you to squeze more eggs.

Yup they do well ~22-26C. In our normal temperature, the fish don't even start to colour up.

----------


## RonWill

> ...and the second inline is not as agressive as the two female. As such, the two female is a lot bigger for this little male to spawn


 Kee Hoe, you can consider all the ZIIs I have now as your back-up and please do not hesitate to take corrective measures.

A quick pic of 2 males. The lower male is chasing a pellet.

Not much color at the moment. Maybe it's the heat wave.

I'm not sure how large is your dominant female but swing by my place and catch the 2 largest males. On average, I guesstimate their size around 6cm and with your chiller running, let hope they'll give you more good eggs.

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie, the skewed sex ratio has got to be disappointing, but you and
Kee Hoe still have a shot with these. I'd keep the female in her own
tank away from the boys except at breeding time. You wouldn't want an
over-amorous fella bringing her to an untimely demise  :Wink:  

Best of luck to you both,

Bill

----------


## keehoe

Ron, If i am not wrong, what you have over there is all boys team.

If i am not wrong also, quite a number of those i am raising now are female. But i have to monitor their development since the previous "big chest" incident had killed many of them.

After collected two boys from you, i pair them up and i found 4 eggs from the bigger pair and one from the smaller. How ever, i will still try to go slow on it as the female is still one size bigger than the male. So keep your boys team well feed.

Actually from the 2 pair that we have. We progress to "produce" more fish especially the male.

Conclusion: Situation had improve.

----------


## keehoe

> Ronnie, the skewed sex ratio has got to be disappointing, but you and
> Kee Hoe still have a shot with these. I'd keep the female in her own
> tank away from the boys except at breeding time. You wouldn't want an
> over-amorous fella bringing her to an untimely demise  
> 
> Best of luck to you both,
> 
> Bill


Bill, it is more like the other way round. These two female had exhausted one male to death and i had to rescue the other one before the it goes to heaven. The two female had grown big and they tends to get most of the food and grow fast.

----------

