# Planted Tanks > Aquascaping >  Nav's Iwagumi Project Log "Greater Heights"

## Navanod

Started this hobby 2 years back in a bid to have something "Zen" in the room to look at after a hard day's work...
Sadly, my attempts till date had been anything but "zen". I suffered from the typical newbie mistake of trying to keep and grow everything that catches my fancy at the LFS and created algae farms thats overpacked with livestocks and weeds  :Knockout: 

So now, a new beginning!

Received a new tank from Project Tank last week. 60x45x45cm low iron glass on a black laminated cabinet.

Also prepared a list of items:

Substrate
ADA Powersand Special L
ADA Amazonia 2
ADA Kurokinryu Stones Correction: Yamaya Stones
Black rubbery foam blocks
Added: Eheim Lavachips

Eheim Pro 2 2028 with installation kits
DIY CO2 reactor
Resun CL650 with external temp controller
3ft LED light from NA (Got this as an overkill 2nd hand. But it has 3 tubes instead of 2 tubes in the 2ft, can cover the deeper 45cm tank better). I wonder how many WPG I'll be getting?

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## Navanod

I've had the experience of fighting to keep powersand from being dug up as "ores" in my nano tanks so I'm more fussy this time



I'll not be using very deep rooted plants so the PS is just "for good measures" in the foregrounds. Tied them in a mesh bag and lay them on the bottom.
Put a huge 5cm thick rubbery foam into position to act as cushion and filler.



As I'm expecting shrimps, some old mud "for good measures" again. Still not very convinced about the benefits though.

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## Navanod

I had read about the various rocks and stones used in Iwagumi and was at first thinking of going with "Seiryu" stones typically used. However, this stone will increase pH and GH with time...
then I read about this Iwagumi philosophy that darker rocks are generally considered more desirable and I found some very nice pictures of said dark rocks.
Took me a trip all the way to Woodlands before finding these stones at Biotope.



They didn't tell me the name of the stone but informed me that this stone would not affect pH and GH unlike the Seiryu in the next box. Found the proper name "Kurokinryu" after some online search.

Very dense and nice rocks that turn a dark blueish grey underwater. However, selection was limited and I'm starved for a companion rock for the main as well as a lack of tiny sacrificial stones...
Found that Mizu world stocks these as well and will be getting some, although as expected, cannot handpick from an online shop :Roll Eyes:

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## eviltrain

woo, getting exciting wor. keep it up. i'm poisoned by you.

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## Navanod

Ok, enough talks, FAST FORWARD to what's interesting!



This is my first attempt...and although the top turned out rather close to what I had in mind, the foreground and bottom was more engineering than art, with rocks, foam blocks and even pebbles being used to shore up the soil to create the high slope.

I had wanted a double slope, beginning at the bottom and going up towards the left that stops briefly in a small clearing (for planting) before turning sharply upwards towards the right, climbing on the back of the long stone. That should end on a steep cliff that falls off that the right side of the tank.

This idea was drawn from studying the styles of Iwagumi on this page
http://www.aquajournal.net/na/iwagumi/styles.html
I had wanted a hybrid of style II and IV...some bedrocks effects, a V curve and to have a main protuding rock ala classic 3 or more stones style.


I think the bottom slope needs more work...and I'm not too happy with some of the bottom stones as they don't seemed natural...

Any advice and comments on the scape and the stones?

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## eviltrain

your rocks will be covered by the plants , you have to lift them out a bit more.

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## Navanod

Here's more pictures of the scape in details

The main rock, hopefully in the golden ratio position?


The twins at the first "height". I like how the smaller one seemed to have chipped off the large


The tiny attendant under the cliff, very full of character...


The bedrocks, didn't like the left one...


More bedrocks. The small piece was actually to hide a corner of a foam block!


Top view


Left view


Right view

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## blue33

looks interesting to me. is being sometime no one setup iwagumi already.  :Smile:

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## Navanod

> your rocks will be covered by the plants , you have to lift them out a bit more.


Thanks for the tip. Was planning on using HC and fissidens for most of the tank and small clumps of hairgrass in the back to create distance. If I can get a mini bolbitis to overhand from one of the rocks, it'll be a plus!  :Grin: 

I'm also toying with the idea of using marimo carpet.... :Evil:

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## eviltrain

good luck for your marimo idea. you can actually peel it up like a orange, and ties it on a wire mesh ( area of marimo should covers the edge of the wire mesh )

actually i'm going to make one 1 feet cube. but something happens in the family, things got to halt till i come back. 
i will look out for your thread so i can copy some of the ideas from you. haha

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## Navanod

> good luck for your marimo idea. you can actually peel it up like a orange, and ties it on a wire mesh ( area of marimo should covers the edge of the wire mesh )
> 
> actually i'm going to make one 1 feet cube. but something happens in the family, things got to halt till i come back. 
> i will look out for your thread so i can copy some of the ideas from you. haha


Haha! Thanks, trying to avoid mesh but I'll get to it once the hardscape's done.
Looking forward to your project too, must have something to learn from you too

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## Navanod

> looks interesting to me. is being sometime no one setup iwagumi already.


Heh, the expert speaks. Saw your works for the IAPLC.

I'm actually kinda stuck...the layout looks "strange"...either too many small/medium stones, or the bottom stones not compatible or natural

I'm probably going to try and get a larger single stone to replace 2 of the medium ones as the proper secondary rock as well as many tiny ones to break up the linear contours.

Any pointers?  :Confused:

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## Limy

Hey.. pardon my stupid question but where did you get the black rubbery foam boards and where did you get your iwagumi rocks?

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## Navanod

Hi Limy

Thats not a stupid question! Its valid! Foam boards were ripped off the packing cushions of one of my workplace equipment! There's alot more that time, really regret not grabbing more before they were thrown out
We can also find such foams locally but most are white...I'm also looking for the black version locally now!

Rocks are from Biotope as indicated in post #3. Very good service, they let me dig and play around with the rocks in a mock tank to see if they look good with each other.

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## blue33

Hey i'm no expert. Just my 2 cents opinion. The rocks you have is doing fine, the only thing is the placing of stone you need to work on. Currently the rock is scatter everywhere, you loose the focus point, you have to make them look _majestic_, those small one you can place beside the big one, the big one try not to tile too much also, it causes too much tension and plant cant grow in the shade also. Place the stone just like a family with kids around the parent if you know what i mean?  :Smile:  Try to arrange and take photo and see how it look like in your computer till you satisfy.




> Heh, the expert speaks. Saw your works for the IAPLC.
> 
> I'm actually kinda stuck...the layout looks "strange"...either too many small/medium stones, or the bottom stones not compatible or natural
> 
> I'm probably going to try and get a larger single stone to replace 2 of the medium ones as the proper secondary rock as well as many tiny ones to break up the linear contours.
> 
> Any pointers?

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## Navanod

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for the reminder. You are very right...in my efforts to create a high slope, I've turned the stones into "bricks" to hold up the soil rather than to place them in harmony with each other.
Will redo it again (more fun!!)

I'm certainly not going to rush this project. Had enough setbacks to know that rushing normally leads to even more frustrations and redos. Thanks again!

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## |squee|

The rocks are too far apart from each other.

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## Navanod

> The rocks are too far apart from each other.


Thanks for the pointers. Going to get a few more rocks from Mizu and try to create 2 clusters instead of scattering them like now.  :Grin:

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## Shadow

alternatively, you can consider to make 1 cluster.

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## marle

a thought is to change your main piece to something slightly bigger and with more detail to create a more impressive focal point.

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## Navanod

> a thought is to change your main piece to something slightly bigger and with more detail to create a more impressive focal point.


Yes, my wife-to-be thinks so too (she's a designer  :Embarassed: )
I did try to reveal more of the main rock and raised the slope even higher



What do you think of that? I might have to really get an XL rock if all else fails... :Shocked:

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## Navanod

Thanks to all for your pointers so far, really helpful to a noob scaper :P

I had to cheat a fair bit to get that slope this high though...

Really liked that scoop/flattener that I found lying around...probably meant for getting rid of ice from freezer

I concluded that 18L of soil is still not enough and that too much foam is being buried as of now...something's bound to go wrong with this much buried foam! But my vision was of a really high slope, inspired by this



So I'm getting more soil...will rescape again once the soil's here

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## blue33

Now the thing you facing is showing too much smooth surface of the rock, you lack of texture on the rock, try to show more of the ugly surface. The soil you have is ok. If you like the location of the rock, then you should play around with rotating the rock in the same position to show the uneven surface, that way you will see the beauty of the rock and overall. Hope i'm not talking rubbish.  :Opps:

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## ranmasatome

i have a suggestion to remove the foam and replace them with either more rocks of the same kind below.. or... red vlocanic rocks.

red volcanic rock is relatively cheap if you buy it from a fish farm. and its is rough and irregularly shaped. This is good as a base because.. 1) its rough edges gives it "grip" to hold onto one another. 2) the rough edges hold your soil. 3) it is damn light compared to rocks. 4) relatively cheaper. 5)because of 1-4 it can make a good "base slope" that you can then pour your real soil over (not all, save about 1/2 - 2/3 for after the real rocks go on.)
Once you've done that.. place your rocks in clusters on top of this "base".
When placing rocks, i also agree with the rest that the cluster idea works. You will probably need more smaller rocks (from what i see you have now)... or alternatively.. you can bury your big rocks deeper in. Point is.. you need a variation of sizes.

As for your focal rock.. the big sharp one.. i feel that this rock is very forceful. Meaning that it looks like it wants everyone to look at it from how sharp it looks. its just very "in your face" if you know what i mean. When i look at your tank.. thats mostly what my eyes see first.
i think you need to consider the direction and flow of the rocks. Turn each rock around many times and explore different orientations and consider if you can use the best characteristics of a rock to enhance this. This might mean burying 3/4 of a rock such that only a small part is seen.. but this part is the best part and adds to the flow of your tank..
i took the liberty to draw out what i think and see your rocks point to and what i think the flow of your current set up looks like to me.

Currently, i feel that the rocks just point all over the place. Rocks on the left point left..and up and sideways... rocks on the right point left and right and sideways. i'm not saying that all rocks have to point the same way.. but lets take a look at the picture that inspired you..

OR FeiMiao's 5 year old tank (can use this as example ken?)

OR 6 other configurations that can signify "flow"


I hope you can get the gist of what i'm getting at. "flow" of rocks and the tank is a hard concept to explain. If you notice the red dots as well.. thats probably where your eye will wander to?  :Grin: 

Okay.. this is getting long..haha...  :Smile:  but i do hope you get what i'm trying to convey...and i hope i'm helping :Smile: 
Good luck with the tank.. it really looks full of potential.. can't wait to see how it looks up, a new tank is always exciting.. :Smile:

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## Fuzzy

Great diagrams! gonna have to request a consult when I go the Iwagumi route!

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## Shadow

Since we are talking about flow, what is consider to be desirable flow? To me it is just bunch of arrow flying around. What is a good flow suppose to be? does most of the arrow need to be pointing at the same direction? or does it need to be pointing at the opposite direction?

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## Navanod

> Now the thing you facing is showing too much smooth surface of the rock, you lack of texture on the rock, try to show more of the ugly surface. The soil you have is ok. If you like the location of the rock, then you should play around with rotating the rock in the same position to show the uneven surface, that way you will see the beauty of the rock and overall. Hope i'm not talking rubbish.


 :Sad:  I already tried to pick and show the rocks and facings with more characters. The nature of this type of rocks is more of a windswept/water eroded look with lines looking like it was eaten away by running water. But overall, its smoother than Seiryu rocks. The main rock's other side is even smoother and have a large patch of "rust" that I'm trying to hide.
But I'll try to see if I can highlight what little features I can




> i have a suggestion to remove the foam and replace them with either more rocks of the same kind below.. or... red vlocanic rocks.
> 
> 
> As for your focal rock.. the big sharp one.. i feel that this rock is very forceful. Meaning that it looks like it wants everyone to look at it from how sharp it looks. its just very "in your face" if you know what i mean. When i look at your tank.. thats mostly what my eyes see first.
> i think you need to consider the direction and flow of the rocks. Turn each rock around many times and explore different orientations and consider if you can use the best characteristics of a rock to enhance this. This might mean burying 3/4 of a rock such that only a small part is seen.. but this part is the best part and adds to the flow of your tank..
> i took the liberty to draw out what i think and see your rocks point to and what i think the flow of your current set up looks like to me.
> 
> Currently, i feel that the rocks just point all over the place. Rocks on the left point left..and up and sideways... rocks on the right point left and right and sideways. i'm not saying that all rocks have to point the same way.. but lets take a look at the picture that inspired you..
> 
> ...


WOW!  :p: 
Thank you for taking so much effort to explain this to me!

Volcanic rocks...thats a good idea. Its what the LFS calls lava rocks right? I think they also do not alter the water parameters?

Flow and Yin/yang had been the things that I just cannot seemed to grasp maybe because I'm just not a very spiritual person. However, your diagrams had made "flow" much clearer to me now and I think I'm starting to understand why my vision looked so good in my mind but I cannot recreate it!

Will rettry again

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## Fireball

> Hi Limy
> 
> Thats not a stupid question! Its valid! Foam boards were ripped off the packing cushions of one of my workplace equipment! There's alot more that time, really regret not grabbing more before they were thrown out
> We can also find such foams locally but most are white...I'm also looking for the black version locally now!
> 
> Rocks are from Biotope as indicated in post #3. Very good service, they let me dig and play around with the rocks in a mock tank to see if they look good with each other.



Hi 

I have a couple of questions and thought you might be able to help clarify:

1) Is the foam going to stay in the tank? 
2) Will it float or cause movement to your soil and rock since it going to float?3) Will it have any side effects? I meant it will be exposed to water for a long time. Any chemicals that might dissolved into the water after a long exposure to water?
4) What was the foam formally used to pack? Safe for fishes?

Sorry, I am just curious. Thanks for your time.

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## Shadow

> Flow and Yin/yang had been the things that I just cannot seemed to grasp maybe because I'm just not a very spiritual person. However, your diagrams had made "flow" much clearer to me now and I think I'm starting to understand why my vision looked so good in my mind but I cannot recreate it!


You able to grasp these arrow thinggy that Ranmasatome draw? I can't figure it out, still look like arrow flying around to me  :Opps:  I only understand that the thick arrow is the main/big rock and the thin arrow is the small rock, other than that I'm at lost. Please enlighten me  :Smile: 

I'm still pondering
1) what is consider to be desirable flow?
2) does most of the arrow need to be pointing at the same direction? or 
3) does it need to be pointing at the opposite direction?

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## Fuzzy

To quote Amano from the Aquajournal article:
"You cannot produce a good Iwagumi unless you work at a quick pace, building momentum. When you take time and think about it too much, it often turns into a dull and unnatural looking layout, lacking a sense of rhythm. However, there were times that I rearranged rocks this way and that way for hundreds of times. I often worked late into the night until I was satisfied and then found the work quite disappointing the next morning. Having experience and instinct sometimes count more than the artistic sense when arranging rocks. Although I think that the artistic sense is important in the end, it is important to first have confidence in your idea that “rocks will appear this way when placed like this”. When you gain experience and develop your instinct, you will gain speed and a sense of rhythm, which will enable you to create an unstable, difficult, and delicate composition that renders the powerfulness and the sense of stability of nature." 

- http://www.aquajournal.net/room/iwagumi_philosophy.html

That said, this isn't something I can do, but interesting point to note nonetheless.

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## ranmasatome

> Since we are talking about flow, what is consider to be desirable flow? To me it is just bunch of arrow flying around. What is a good flow suppose to be? does most of the arrow need to be pointing at the same direction? or does it need to be pointing at the opposite direction?


The arrows are supposed to convey a general sense of direction. If you look around you in nature, you will notice that most things have a sense of direction (grains of a tree, veins in a leaf, compound leaf formation, mountain formation, forest trees, waves in the sea, rocks on a beach etc.etc.) and although they may not agree with each other all the time, they generally contribute to a greater direction and/or focal point. I think this is why we find certain things pleasing to the eye. Its also why composition is so important when taking photographs. 
Direction in nature is generally caused by the earth and its formation. Take mountains for example, when a mountain range forms, it doesn't just choose to form, its caused by tectonic plates moving (one of the reasons) and because the plates are formed in a certain way and they push a certain way..the mountains all form in that way. 
Waves in the sea, wind blowing in one direction.
Grains of a tree, water movement in the stem (generally).
As seen, there always is a greater force driving the formation of what we deem as pleasing to the eye. Of course in nature, there is that odd one or 2 that defies this direction but those are usually the smaller ones. The greater overall picture still "flows" with this "greater force"
Like i said loh, i don't know how to explain "flow"...and as above, no, not all the arrows have to be pointing the same direction all the time or opposite direction all the time. i dont want to make this too technical as scaping is about appreciating nature, and it would be sad for scapers to calculate everything because nature doesn't calculate, it flows.
Personally, as a general rule of thumb, that can be broken..haha..
1) i decide on a focal point
2) decide what i want to do at that focal point (leave blank?, plant plants?)
3) arrange rocks to complement it (rocks can lead the eye out from focal point or point to this focal point - general larger direction)

If you have decided on one general flow direction..
Rocks laid flat - generally have a "low profile" and tend to be secondary points of focus - meaning your eye will only notice them later when you appreciate the larger general scape. They contibute to the larger form of the tank and give support to the entire scape. Sometimes they can also be used to mute a scape that is too strong.
Rocks pointing in that general direction of flow - will enforce it, most times the focal rock will support this flow direction. Please note that rock direction and flow direction is different hor. Rock direction is just which direction the rock is "pointing". Flow direction a larger general sense of where ALL the rocks are leading your eye to... most times this is the focal point.
Rocks pointing against the general direction of flow - will mute it, you will notice these rocks if they are too big and if too many are used in opposing directions, the flow of the tank will change. Most times these are the smaller rocks. In nature there will always be 1 or 2 or 3 or some..but its almost never smack in the most noticable area unless they are small or very small.
That said, this is only one facet of the issue. There is also influence through planting and planting methods.  :Grin: 
You should know mah... your scape really is quite natural and nice. :Smile: 
of course this is the first time i'm typing this out.. never really though about it actually..haha.. just do and see nice a not.
Sometimes people like amano are lucky in this aspect. If you spend a lot of time in nature like me...since i work in the forest all my life... it will come naturally to you...some others simply have a knack for this (like you)... others simply can't get it...
To the last group... i hope this helps...but most importantly loh...like what amano said also... just enjoy this hobby lah... don't think so much.. its supposed to be enjoyable!! :Smile:

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## Shadow

Honestly I don't know, when I scape, I just do without much of thinking beside golden rule. The problem is when somebody ask me to improve his/her scape, I also do not know how to answer beside nice or not nice  :Razz: . That is why when there is spacing discussion I normally jump in and asked question  :Laughing:

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## Navanod

> Hi 
> 
> I have a couple of questions and thought you might be able to help clarify:
> 
> 1) Is the foam going to stay in the tank? 
> 2) Will it float or cause movement to your soil and rock since it going to float?3) Will it have any side effects? I meant it will be exposed to water for a long time. Any chemicals that might dissolved into the water after a long exposure to water?
> 4) What was the foam formally used to pack? Safe for fishes?
> 
> Sorry, I am just curious. Thanks for your time.


1. It has to! Its buried for good once I'm done scaping
2. It's able to float but not with so many rocks and soil sitting on it. At the moment, the only side effect is that it may prevent water from flowing under the substrate and creating anaerobic dead zones within the soil.
It may also sag with time, causing the scape to collapse.
Chemical-wise, I'm not sure...I removed most of the glue residues and only use the foam, which is hopefully inert.
4. The foams were cushions packed around metal racks and shelves that was being shipped in from overseas. Nothing dangerous or harmful. I had washed them many times before using them




> To quote Amano from the Aquajournal article:
> "You cannot produce a good Iwagumi unless you work at a quick pace, building momentum. When you take time and think about it too much, it often turns into a dull and unnatural looking layout, lacking a sense of rhythm. However, there were times that I rearranged rocks this way and that way for hundreds of times. I often worked late into the night until I was satisfied and then found the work quite disappointing the next morning. Having experience and instinct sometimes count more than the artistic sense when arranging rocks. Although I think that the artistic sense is important in the end, it is important to first have confidence in your idea that rocks will appear this way when placed like this. When you gain experience and develop your instinct, you will gain speed and a sense of rhythm, which will enable you to create an unstable, difficult, and delicate composition that renders the powerfulness and the sense of stability of nature." 
> 
> - http://www.aquajournal.net/room/iwagumi_philosophy.html
> 
> That said, this isn't something I can do, but interesting point to note nonetheless.


I read that too! I even tried waking up in the middle of the night to do scaping hoping to get some inspirations! But like the grand master, I woke up the next day and the work looked horrid  :Exasperated: 




> You able to grasp these arrow thinggy that Ranmasatome draw? I can't figure it out, still look like arrow flying around to me  I only understand that the thick arrow is the main/big rock and the thin arrow is the small rock, other than that I'm at lost. Please enlighten me 
> 
> I'm still pondering
> 1) what is consider to be desirable flow?
> 2) does most of the arrow need to be pointing at the same direction? or 
> 3) does it need to be pointing at the opposite direction?


Not fully understood but because I already had a rough idea, I realized why the vision looked so good in my mind. Because the flow was supposed to be going upwards from right to left and then back to right till it ends at the tip of the peak, hence the name "Greater Heights". How to achieve this flow is another story altogether though...

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## ranmasatome

Yes, i understand, i also just scape and see nice a not..but then to help people in their scape, just saying nice... or not nice..not really any help mah. If we want to improve the aquascaping scene/ help people scape, we must start to think why some things are nice.. and why sometimes the scape isn't as much as it can be. Ask question is good.. you don't ask i also would never have asked myself..haha.. :Grin:

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## ranmasatome

Nav,

Would the foam be an issue next time when you need to do planting?
Would the plants suffer because of the shallow soil?
Would the plants be easily dislodged?
What happens if some of the soil shift and the foam is seen later when the tank is already fully set up?

Just thought i'd raise up some things to consider. :Smile: 

For your "flow" issue..This is what i interpret you to be saying...

The cyan big arrow is your general larger direction of "flow" in the rocks you want to convey.
1 simple question... 
In an iwagami, what is your biggest asset? - SPACE.
Look at the picture that inspired you again... where is the space? where is the general larger direction of flow? can you get a better feel of it now? Your inspired picture makes me look at the space of the plains and the sky. Your current scape makes me look at your limitation... the side glass panel? With 2 much weaker rocks trying to highlight your biggest asset. Scaping in a fish tank is like taking a picture, we are limited by the four sides, anything beyond that we cannot see. So in your picture.. what do you want to highlight? Your limitation or your biggest asset?
Hope that helps.

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## Navanod

> Nav,
> For your "flow" issue..This is what i interpret you to be saying...
> 
> The cyan big arrow is your general larger direction of "flow" in the rocks you want to convey.
> 1 simple question... 
> In an iwagami, what is your biggest asset? - SPACE.
> Look at the picture that inspired you again... where is the space? where is the general larger direction of flow? can you get a better feel of it now? Your inspired picture makes me look at the space of the plains and the sky. Your current scape makes me look at your limitation... the side glass panel? With 2 much weaker rocks trying to highlight your biggest asset. Scaping in a fish tank is like taking a picture, we are limited by the four sides, anything beyond that we cannot see. So in your picture.. what do you want to highlight? Your limitation or your biggest asset?
> Hope that helps.


Yes, all your concerns bout the foam and shallow soil is valid and did cross my mind. Initally, I only planned to have 1 or 2 big pieces at the bottom to cushion the big rocks...but looks like I went overboard in my bid to create a high slope and to reduce weight!
Will replace with the lava rocks instead  :Smile: 

Your interpretations of the flow I had in mind is 100% correct! And I understand what you meant about pointing at the side glass!! I had wanted a very steep fall off the tip of that rock to make it look very high and deep, but I didn't consider that the eyes will not follow the fall, but where the rock is pointing!

What if I move that big rock to the right instead like this?

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## ranmasatome

Looks much better to me. :Smile: 
A point to note for Depth...
Don't let the big rock be the Last rock in the horizon. 
thats all i'll say for now.. you can figure it out..and you'll also probably realise why yourself when you do. :Smile:  (back to inspiring picture :Smile: )

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## comet

wa wa wa. I am really learning alot from the post. I hope I can applied what I read today onto my tank. Will redo a study of my tank again.  :Smile:

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## Shadow

sure can  :Wink: , just reascape your tank and take photo along the way.

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## StanChung

I think all scapes benefit from patterns in nature. Some patterns like the main rock type are borne from opposing tectonic plates pushing against each other causing one main rock to point upwards.

Your current ideas are close to a concentric ring type scape. Also a natural phenomenon. Like a bunch of rocks falling in a concentric ring radiating from an imaginary centre.[probably from a meteor strike?]

In art school/class, you learn perspective. 
1 point perspective-all lines come from this point. A lot of my scapes are one point only surprisingly. View from your tank straight on.
2 point perspective-lines come from two points. Architectural artist impressions always have this view. The view of your tank at 45º angle from the side.
3 point perspective-lines come from 3 points. A very 3D look. A view of your tank 45º from the side and also 45º higher.

How about 4D? Well, buying numbers isn't my thing.  :Grin: 
4th dimension is 'science' I think and not relevant to us at this point in time!  :Laughing: 

The most important point is that the 'points' themselves can be set very very very far away or right in the middle of the tank or as it often is, at the golden section.

Example- For those with all arrow pointing up, it just means the perspective point is very very far down-as far as the center of the earth till all the arrows look parallel where your tank is.

So if you arrange the things in your tank to match the perspective will it be a good design?
It's only the BASIC!  :Laughing: 
To get a good design you will need more research into natural formations and also creating optical illusions-though overdoing this is tacky IMO  :Grin: 

Open your mind to determine the scale and from there you can see the pattern.
I sit in front of my tank for hours when the mood gets me and I see a lot of patterns.

It's also good to go to a shop that has a lot of nice aquascaping materials and openly 'stare'.

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## Navanod

At the advice of "Blue33", I obtained some lava rocks from NA. I was somewhat puzzled at first as they seemed to be more lava chips.



Fearing the same problem as powersand, I had them bagged



NA's boss assured me they are quality lava rocks from ehiem and unlike the larger and cheaper ones I had initially wanted, would not crumble or leak anything into the water column.

Much scaping later, this is the result



Am still waiting for more small rocks and a few large ones to arrive...also thinking of throwing in the remaining powersands I had to create a better slope under the "cliff"

Please give your expert views  :Smile: 
Perhaps moving the main rock forward may improve depth?

----------


## Navanod

> I think all scapes benefit from patterns in nature. Some patterns like the main rock type are borne from opposing tectonic plates pushing against each other causing one main rock to point upwards.
> 
> Your current ideas are close to a concentric ring type scape. Also a natural phenomenon. Like a bunch of rocks falling in a concentric ring radiating from an imaginary centre.[probably from a meteor strike?]
> 
> In art school/class, you learn perspective. 
> 1 point perspective-all lines come from this point. A lot of my scapes are one point only surprisingly. View from your tank straight on.
> 2 point perspective-lines come from two points. Architectural artist impressions always have this view. The view of your tank at 45º angle from the side.
> 3 point perspective-lines come from 3 points. A very 3D look. A view of your tank 45º from the side and also 45º higher.
> 
> ...


Something for me to ponder the next time I sit before the tank...I'm still not entirely able to see patterns and somethings still looks unnatural but I don't know why

Any examples of creating optical illusions?  :Grin:

----------


## blue33

The problem with those lava rocks or powersand coming out is when you remove plant from the soil you don't remove totally, we pull out the plant till you see about 1 inches of the root and cut it off, leaving the remaining root there, it act as ferts for the soil also. 

Lava chips is better than lava rocks and is hard to find lava chips.  :Laughing: 

You got to leave some space in the real for planting, at least 3 inches.

You must like the scape you've created cause everyday you going to face it. Not us.  :Wink:

----------


## Navanod

Relooked at the the tank before leaving my house this morning...
This is what I see...



Cyan arrows are the flow of the rocks.
Blue is the overall flow I would've wanted

Green are the things which I find needs improvements. The slope can be more defined and with a more distinctive "step" kinda like the one in the inspirational picture



Also, the green line at the rear signifies the lack of depth and distance. How can I slope it to create that illusion? Switching to smaller stones at the back (or burying the bigger one more)?

Thanks in advance!

----------


## Navanod

> The problem with those lava rocks or powersand coming out is when you remove plant from the soil you don't remove totally, we pull out the plant till you see about 1 inches of the root and cut it off, leaving the remaining root there, it act as ferts for the soil also. 
> 
> Lava chips is better than lava rocks and is hard to find lava chips. 
> 
> You got to leave some space in the real for planting, at least 3 inches.
> 
> You must like the scape you've created cause everyday you going to face it. Not us.


Thanks for the lava chip tips! I'm certainly not complaining and is very happy with them after working with them last night
I agree bout the lava chips. Very porous yet very solid and hard, unlike the spongy type normally found in boxes outside LFS.

Thanks for the cutting tip. However, the reason for bagging is not just with uprooting of plants.
I'm still constantly rescaping at the moment and turning everything upside down. Took me 3 retries before I settled with the latest scape.
Had the chips been loose and not bagged, they would be all over by now! They are also rather sharp and I tend to dig with my hands... :Knockout: 
The good thing is that these chips blend in rather well with the aquasoil, unlike the bright white powersand.

Leave space in the rear? Means the rocks should be moved forward?

I'm quite happy with the overall feel but I feel the slope and the depth can be improved further.

Thanks

----------


## blue33

Yes, the real stone move forward infront. It will look closer and majestic and leaving space and plant to grow.  :Smile:

----------


## ranmasatome

Wa! looks like you're getting the idea..haha..
personally, i think it looks more soothing compared to your first hardscape. 

As for creating a "step" and the placement of your focal rock, consider where your horizon is right now and where the focal rock/"step" is in accordance to the horizon. This is important because when you take a FTS, it will be what you're seeing. 

If you look at your inspirational picture.. the step is evident because the horizon is way below the tip of the mountain. How do you make that happen in your scape? Would lowering the slope be better? or would shifting the rock? or both? or is there another novel way to do it? There is no right answer loh..it all depends on what your purposes are for choosing either one of the methods. Point is to create a noticable gap while maintaining the flow. Realise that your back ground now is grey and in your current scape the gap may seem small because of how high your current slope is. What if you planted directly behind this rock to highlight its edge? would it make the "step" more evident without you even moving anything now?

Also, the focal rock looks funny just "sitting" on the top of the horizon. Nothing that big i see "sits" on the horizon of your inspirational picture. 
I would suggest to let your horizon run (not excessively such that it blots out your focal rock)... creating more depth. 
Now.. how to do that??  :Smile:

----------


## Navanod

I feel a butcher trying to do surgery, hahaha! Just starting to grasp the very basic!

The initial plan was to top up enough soil behind the main rock that I can plant and have some plant (likely HC or hairgrass) peek over the top of part of the main rock. But I ran out of soil  :Sad: 

No worries, I'm expecting a delivery tonight. Will post the next rescape soon!

----------


## Navanod

Just got my new rocks. They looked different from what I currently have...
Now I don't know what kinda rocks I currently have since they are neither Kurokinryu nor Seiryu Stones. Intriguing...

Nonetheless, lets see if I can blend them together? hehe

----------


## Shadow

You did not buy at the same shop?

When you try it, try to spray water on it. Some rock look different under water.

----------


## Navanod

> You did not buy at the same shop?
> 
> When you try it, try to spray water on it. Some rock look different under water.


Nope, Biotope still had some but the sizes and shapes didn't suit my ideas at that time so I went and order from Mizu thinking they're the same.

After wetting the new rocks, they do look dark enough to blend in but these new ones had much sharper edges and more white veins in them.
They also have more character and Ben from Mizu had chosen very nicely shaped ones for me

Another thing is, at places where the rocks had newly broken off, the underlying color is very dark, almost the same as the ones I've gotten previously. But the outer surfaces have this pale "coating" that renders it lighter in color.
Wondering if I can sandpaper that coat off? There is a chance they are indeed the same type of rocks but I cannot explain the difference in smoothness/sharpness and the white deposits

Will take some pictures and post.

----------


## Navanod

You may have to increase your screen brightness for this but here's the new rocks and old rock comparison.

The new ones are certainly more full of characters but I wonder if they'll look obviously lighter in shade when placed in the tank with the old?

Dry new, wet new, wet old


Details


3 new and 1 old all wet


Wet old, half wet half dry new, dry old


Ok, I'll go dig in the dirt and see if I can find a good way to put these very nice new rocks to use in the scape  :Grin:

----------


## blue33

Your new rock is Seiryu rock.  :Smile:  The huge pimple it has shown.  :Grin:

----------


## Navanod

> Your new rock is Seiryu rock.  The huge pimple it has shown.


That was my initial thoughts too...however, Mizu assured me it was not since they market both rocks.

I had just returned from a back breaking scrubbing session after soaking the rocks in hot water and after watching as some of the whitish layers slowly gets scrubed off...I'm starting to think that most of the rocks now looks very close to the ones I initially had~! 
Either they were very dirty (but hey, they're rocks afterall) or they came from a quarry with more limestones veins.

Many of the rocks could probably blend in now with the exceptions of those with a thick layer of whitish limestone-like encrustment. One of the small stone was almost entirely made of that whitish stuff! I tried knocking it against the others and it just chipped and crumbled, hehe.

I'm thinking that with mild acid or some aggressive polishing, the underlying dark stone can be exposed. I even tested that by using 2 of the small stones to rub against each other...the eroded portions exposed darker materials.

Then again, I'm already too obsessive, lets not feed the obsession  :Evil: 

Here's a shot of the new cleaned Seiryu-like rock in the tank, dry, next to a newly cleaned old rock.



Here are 3 of the smaller rocks. Left - Dark. Top - Dark below but with thick layer of whitish stuff. Right - Almost entirely white


Any reasons why I should not mix the new rocks with the old? They do look similar underwater (excluding the obviously whitish ones). Whatever they are, the larger ones do look good and I don't want to drag this on...
By the way, can anyone then tell me what stone I had initially please!!?

----------


## ranmasatome

isn't it just granite? haha.. i so "sua ku" (backdated)!

And NA got lava chips?? wah.. i also want some. Think i'll head down today.

----------


## Navanod

> isn't it just granite? haha.. i so "sua ku" (backdated)!
> 
> And NA got lava chips?? wah.. i also want some. Think i'll head down today.


Seiryu is also called Azure Dragon stone, 青龙. If the newer rocks are indeed Seiryu, then now I know why its called that. When wet, the rocks exhibit a bluish green hue, unlike the older rocks I have, which have a reddish hue...

Am going to sink 2 rocks into a spare tanks and do a proper comparision in case they really cannot blend.

NA have! Eheim somemore. Ask the boss cause they're very hard to spot

OT abit, Just woke up with a very swollen left eye  :Crying:  Now one eyed 龙

----------


## Shadow

what happen to your eye? you fight with someone or something? ...  :Opps: 

IMO, I don't think it can blend. Even if the color the same but surface is look different

----------


## ranmasatome

> Seiryu is also called Azure Dragon stone, 青龙. If the newer rocks are indeed Seiryu, then now I know why its called that. When wet, the rocks exhibit a bluish green hue, unlike the older rocks I have, which have a reddish hue...
> 
> Am going to sink 2 rocks into a spare tanks and do a proper comparision in case they really cannot blend.
> 
> NA have! Eheim somemore. Ask the boss cause they're very hard to spot
> 
> OT abit, Just woke up with a very swollen left eye  Now one eyed 龙


Take a pic of when they are in water loh. i can imagine what you are talking about, perhaps if its reallly obvious then "bo pian" (no choice), have to look for the right rocks. The last thing you want is to finish scaping and then realise that you have to move the rocks...wa... that one die man..haha  :Grin: 

Oh.. great!! i'll head down today and ask chan. Can pm me cost? Thanks man!

----------


## Fei Miao

Finally have some time to look at this thread, I'm flattered to see my little tank here. :Smile:  Justin explained the flow and energy in Iwagumi very clearly, hey, you should do a more comprehensive article and have it as a sticky :Laughing: .

Iwagumi scaping is probably among hardest thing in aquascaping, if it's wrong, there's no hiding it :Opps:  Behind all great iwagumi scape is the understanding of the japanese psyche, something I still have not fully apprehended.  :Smile: 

Navanod- the hardscape is probably the hardest part but absolutely necessary to have it done well. With time and patience this scape is going to turn out great! Next will be the choice of plants and fauna, keep it simple. I'm looking forward to it.

----------


## blue33

During my interview for 2010 January Aqua Journal for "Iwagumi", they mentioned "Iwagumi" is consider as the most difficult scape/style in Aquascaping. Look simple but full of consideration before the final result can be produce.  :Knockout:

----------


## Navanod

> Finally have some time to look at this thread, I'm flattered to see my little tank here. Justin explained the flow and energy in Iwagumi very clearly, hey, you should do a more comprehensive article and have it as a sticky.
> 
> Iwagumi scaping is probably among hardest thing in aquascaping, if it's wrong, there's no hiding it Behind all great iwagumi scape is the understanding of the japanese psyche, something I still have not fully apprehended. 
> 
> Navanod- the hardscape is probably the hardest part but absolutely necessary to have it done well. With time and patience this scape is going to turn out great! Next will be the choice of plants and fauna, keep it simple. I'm looking forward to it.


Agreed, hence I'm resisting putting water into that tank till I'm happy with the hardscape!
I just did an underwater side by side comparsion. Sadly, the 2 types of rocks will not look good together. Waste $$$  :Crying:

----------


## Navanod

Hi again,

I've finally narrowed down what rocks I have. The original rocks are called Yamaya stone or ADA 山谷石. According to ADA USA, this rock does not affect the pH and GH.
This site is where I got my final confirmation dued to the many excellent detailed photos

http://item.taobao.com/auction/item_...a32760e991.htm

And I cannot resist linking this post that shows the stones underwater, beautiful
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forum/4233-post1.html

If its not right to link, please let me know...

Apparently, this is only carried by ADA so I'll probably make a trip to Woodlands again once my eye is better.

As for the newer rocks, they're either Seiryu, or Ryuoh. I'm thinking its the latter dued to lower price and easier availability.
ADA USA says:
"The RYUOH STONE is almost identical to the Seiryu Stone in terms of appearance and texture. It has distinctive characteristics just like ones of the Seiryu Stone, sharp and sheer edges and fair grayish-blue color."

Either way, anyone interested to take these newer rocks off my hands? They're of little use to me at the moment.

----------


## Fei Miao

either sell it off, or keep it as you may have use of it for a rescape, or another tank :Grin:

----------


## Navanod

> either sell it off, or keep it as you may have use of it for a rescape, or another tank


That idea did cross my mind since I have a miserable looking office tank that can use some rocks...I'll put them up for sales and see what happens

Here's the latest rescape, moved the main rock forward and managed to get a "step" in the slope in front  :Grin: 


Ran out of soil though...will open up another bag of Amazonia 2 once the rocks are confirmed in positions.
This is the horizon I had in mind...I wonder if the slope will be too steep on the right side of the tank?


I'm thinking that I can probably get away with not getting more small rocks but instead, use plants to break the shape of places that looked unnatural.
Current plan is to use US Fissiden grown on pebbles in strategic spots.
Here's a small batch of algae/pest-free US Fissiden I had been keeping aside for this very purpose


Also have something interesting that I'm still thinking of incorporating


And of course, the ever popular

These are all freshly planted into a tub of amazonia 2 soil and the aim is to just keep them alive. Saw some snails in them already  :Mad: 
Will soak them with my usual chemical warfare before actual planting.

OT: The eye's better already after some antibiotic eyedrops and cream  :Roll Eyes:

----------


## eviltrain

heee heee, looking good  :Well done: 
i will be camping here.

----------


## ranmasatome

I think the height you are planning is fine on the left side..
Agree that the right side is way too high and the impact of the scape might be lost at that height.

Also i feel that so far, your 2nd rock arrangement was the best in terms of rock positioning. The latest one, on the front left side just looks like one big cluter of rocks with no direction again. Space is a friend in iwagami. I think iwagami is hard because we need to find that balance.
Oh.. did you save some small rocks for later when the soil has been topped up?

----------


## Navanod

> I think the height you are planning is fine on the left side..
> Agree that the right side is way too high and the impact of the scape might be lost at that height.
> 
> Also i feel that so far, your 2nd rock arrangement was the best in terms of rock positioning. The latest one, on the front left side just looks like one big cluter of rocks with no direction again. Space is a friend in iwagami. I think iwagami is hard because we need to find that balance.
> Oh.. did you save some small rocks for later when the soil has been topped up?


It is as I had feared... :Sad: 
I think I'll forget bout making a specific slope/step and just focus on getting the depth and distance right. That slope had so far been just a technical nightmare with no visual appeal i.e contributes nothing to the iwagumi'ness.
Will probably make a more gradual slope on the right with just 2 or 3 rocks protruding so as not to kill "space" (which is what my step/slope seemed to be doing)

I'm out of small rocks I'm afraid...maybe if I remove some from that slope area, I can put them to better use. Otherwise, its going to be US Fissiden pebbles in place of the smaller rocks  :Confused: 
Or another long journey to woodlands for more rocks!!

Thanks, your pointers had been very insightful!

----------


## ranmasatome

Actually.. you still might be able to create an illusion of steep slope and "step" with just your planting methods.. dont worry dont worry.. :Grin: 

As for small rocks.. you can bury bigger rocks deeper so they just look small. :Smile:  Of course, showcasing their best face and direction :Smile: .

Its looking real good man... also can't wait to see this tank up and running.. thats so exciting..keke :Smile:

----------


## Navanod

One more rescape, I quite liked it after getting rid of that bothersome slope thingies in front and just focusing on making the rock flow well with the main rock. Also angled the main rock slightly to point 45 degrees to the back rather than straight up and to the right



There's actually a rock behind the main rock that can be seen with 2 eyes but not with 1 (ie. the camera's). The reflection in the glass...

The only eye sore is that medium rock at the rear on the right, poor character, I'm trying to turn it around but the shape looks odd.
Think I should top up abit more height on the right?

Thanks!

----------


## blue33

You need to top up some powder soil to seal down the normal soil gap. Yes, right side need abit more soil and you're almost done. Looks better now.  :Smile:

----------


## Navanod

> You need to top up some powder soil to seal down the normal soil gap. Yes, right side need abit more soil and you're almost done. Looks better now.


Thanks for the tip  :Grin: 
Is that really a must? Budget's getting tight and them powder soil is not cheap! since it'll be more or less fully covered with plants HC...

I've also always wondered why we can't just crash some normal aquasoil into powder...sshhh...I hope Mr Amano would forgive me for having such dark thoughts  :Evil: 

In addition, I'm quite happy that I have so much powersand (I added more bags in the last rescape) and lava chips in the under gravel as my earlier concern was too thick a soil layer creating excessive dead zones of anaerobic activities. That was also why I stayed off the powder soil as well in hopes that air exchange can take place better in the soil.
Ideally would've liked the visible portion of the front glass to have the powdered soil but $$$...

----------


## ranmasatome

Actually i think if you're just going to plant it all then its not a big difference. Wont be seen anyways.

I've done a very rough photoshop (hope you dont mind) and moved your rocks around..
what do you think?


In the above picture i topped up the soil on the right just a tad.. but like i said.. no need to.. just trim your plants there longer to maintain the gradient of the slope that you want in your scape. Since the plants will finally be determining that, then that is the majority of what you need to worry about.
I've also moved some rocks around... don't know what you think.. haha.. :Opps:  
There is one rock that is not used... i think this way..when its all green liao...everything will look slightly more natural (rocks behind not going from big to small)

----------


## blue33

Use Gex powder soil on top, much cheaper.  :Grin: 




> Thanks for the tip 
> Is that really a must? Budget's getting tight and them powder soil is not cheap! since it'll be more or less fully covered with plants HC...
> 
> I've also always wondered why we can't just crash some normal aquasoil into powder...sshhh...I hope Mr Amano would forgive me for having such dark thoughts 
> 
> In addition, I'm quite happy that I have so much powersand (I added more bags in the last rescape) and lava chips in the under gravel as my earlier concern was too thick a soil layer creating excessive dead zones of anaerobic activities. That was also why I stayed off the powder soil as well in hopes that air exchange can take place better in the soil.
> Ideally would've liked the visible portion of the front glass to have the powdered soil but $$$...

----------


## Navanod

> Use Gex powder soil on top, much cheaper.


Hehe, did a quick check online...seems the GEX is roughly 25%++ cheaper (but its comparing kg to Litres, not very accurate, could be even cheaper since 3L of ADA may be heavier than 3kg)

But the good thing is that its sold in tiny packages of 800g and 2kg. Thanks again, will see if I can fill the front glass portion up and have some on hand to cover any odd patches that the plants missed  :Grin:

----------


## Navanod

> Actually i think if you're just going to plant it all then its not a big difference. Wont be seen anyways.
> 
> I've done a very rough photoshop (hope you dont mind) and moved your rocks around..
> what do you think?
> 
> In the above picture i topped up the soil on the right just a tad.. but like i said.. no need to.. just trim your plants there longer to maintain the gradient of the slope that you want in your scape. Since the plants will finally be determining that, then that is the majority of what you need to worry about.
> I've also moved some rocks around... don't know what you think.. haha.. 
> There is one rock that is not used... i think this way..when its all green liao...everything will look slightly more natural (rocks behind not going from big to small)


Fwah!! PS skills also coming in liao. You surprises me  :Shocked: 
Can the HC lawn be height manipulated that easily to maintain a slope?

Yes, I think your rock placement looks more natural. Perhaps less is really more! I'll rearrange tonight and post again, thanks!

----------


## ranmasatome

Most plants can be manipulated, is just a matter of how much.

HC usually grows to about 2inches thick or so maximum before it detaches from the gravel..so anything within that range, i think, is fine. If you're going to use long grasses then the range is even larger  :Smile: .

----------


## Navanod

Some updates

Topped up soil on right and tried out 2 layouts




Which is nicer?

Also took great pains to change out the front soil to GEX powder! I had initially added a small amount of water to the tank so that it wets the soil up to 5cm. This helps me level the front as well as hopefully starting some bacteria growth. If I hit wet soil, I know to stop digging.
That "cleverness" backfired when I wanted to replace the front soil with powder! Ended up crushing alot of the wet soil and smearing mud all over the front glass. Basically a PITA to clean up.
Now that its done, I noticed that the GEX soil is ALOT more absorbent than the ADA! I'm not sure if its because its powder, or the actual composition. Water is able to wick much higher up and wet all the GEX when the ADA stayed dry at that height. Might be good for the DSM...

Speaking of which, I'm also planning to start planting HC soon but quite abit of melting occurred in my tub of HC although I kept it uncovered and well aired on the window. Turns out there's still too much water and those HC at the side were semi-submerged and melted.

Read up on Tom's DSM and realized that he cranked up the CO2 after adding water to prevent melting. That throws a wench into my plans.
I had thought that I can plant the lower slopes first, then move upwards, slowly flooding the lower areas where the HC had matured.
Now I realized that those lower HC will probably just melt since I'm not going to be able to supply CO2!

So now the plan's to just do DSM for the lower slope areas and then just flood the tank and plant HC on the upper slopes coupled with aggressive CO2 injections. Any thoughts on that?

----------


## eviltrain

bro Navanod,
the attachment is some idea for you.

----------


## Navanod

> bro Navanod,
> the attachment is some idea for you.


Hahaha, thanks bro. That thought did cross my mind too, I do have a spare diffuser and a mini powerhead Boyu 601 that may be able to work but lets see how the phase 1 goes  :Grin:

----------


## ranmasatome

If you're asking my opinion.. i prefer setup 2 :Smile: 

As for HC.. just be careful with it growing on brand new ADA soil. It might not be the methods you choose.. it might be just that the soil exudes so much no3 or is so acidic when it first contacts water, that it melts HC, or any other sensitive plants for that matter, to bits. But that said, amazonia 2 isn't as bad as amazonia. Lets see how it goes.

Don't get me wrong.. it is one heck of a good soil though. Just need to be realistic on its past properties.

----------


## Navanod

> If you're asking my opinion.. i prefer setup 2
> 
> As for HC.. just be careful with it growing on brand new ADA soil. It might not be the methods you choose.. it might be just that the soil exudes so much no3 or is so acidic when it first contacts water, that it melts HC, or any other sensitive plants for that matter, to bits. But that said, amazonia 2 isn't as bad as amazonia. Lets see how it goes.
> 
> Don't get me wrong.. it is one heck of a good soil though. Just need to be realistic on its past properties.


Heh, thanks
I'm sure you realized that the 2 setup differs only in that tiny rock's position?
Could not resist stuffing the rock which you took out back in as another "cliff" and moving my favorite stone to the foreground  :Grin: 
I think I'm set!

The HC only melted around the edges of the tub so I think the soil's not to blame. Those in the middle are growing rather well but seemed to be trying to grow upwards  :Opps: 

I think Amazonia 2 is probably the safest choice at this moment for planted tanks and even shrimp tanks.
Will post after planting phase 1!

----------


## Navanod

Here's the HC in a tub



Can see the melting in the corners and patches here and there, planting once I can find time


Here are the mosses on rocks
They all came from a bag of mini pellia a friend gave me but I found US Fissidens and an unknown moss in it which I webbed to a rock as well


The bag of mini pellia had alot of nasties though. BBA, Cladophora, seed shrimps and a planaria worm. Here's some of it after being bombed for 15mins with Potassium Permanganate. Some Clado can still be seen on the left side.


Note the dead pellia soak up the brown stains of the PP much more than the healthy parts


Out of a big bag, only left enough mini pellia for 5 rocks after screening under a bright light and throwing out the algae infested  :Sad:

----------


## ranmasatome

Hey.. if you need stuff to moss up the stones drop me a pm...it'll be free (since this thread is pretty useful to everyone), you just need to come down to pick it up. 
Some of those stones quite naked la.

----------


## Navanod

Thank you very much for the generous offer! hehe
They're actually so bare because I'm anal about testing a pet theory that we can keep exotic algaes out of our tanks. Thus I threw out most of the "contaminated" parts...rather start with semi-naked rocks and let it slowly grow out than to have BBA attacks!
The super bare white rock is because I only found this tiny bits of unknown moss amongst the pellia so I'm just curious to see what it'll grow into! haha

There are some clean US Fissidens on standby yet to be tied so I should have enough moss rocks at the end of the day, although I'm very keen to get my hands on mini-fissidens and mini-bolbitis. Will keep in mind to come crying to you for help if I do run short on mosses during the project!  :Smile:

----------


## Navanod

Progress had been slow...I had been held back by melting HC and the purchase of additional HC on wool freaked me out.

Part of the wool was completely green (and it's not green wool) and for those who advocated planting with the wool:

Free algae! And this was after more than 5 washes! Its Cladophora most likely, one of the 2 worst algae to have. The were also worms and a mosquito hidden in the wool!

But I also understood why people plant with the wool when I tried to separate the HC from the wool. Lost alot of the root system and crush quite a fair bit of HC in the process. Note to self: Never buy HC on wool again!

Threw the remaining HC into a tub and gave it the "Purple Rain of Death"


Can you see the 2 worms? There were many more and it was disgusting to see them bursting to the surface right after the purple rain hits the water.


After blood bath, painfully picked out all the good HC (bad ones will be stained brown) , pull off any leftover algae (dead or alive) and replanted everything in clean soil and waiting for them to develop more roots before planting into the tank. Its much easier to grow them under high light in tubs then trying to crank up the light for the bigger deeper tank.

I then turned to the semi-melted HC that came in pots. Dug some up healthy ones and was pleased that there's plenty of root...until I washed them and found just as much cladophora fragments in the water as the wool raised HC!
More Purple Rain carnage followed...

----------


## Navanod

Hi everyone! Finally an update!
Much setbacks and painful lessons were learnt...enough to write a full page wall of text on, but I know a picture speaks a thousand words


Please ignore the meshes of stuff lying around...those will be removed eventually. There's currently a hornwort + frogbit floating colony as well that'll eventually go.
What do you think lads? I'm quite happy with the way the marimo lawn turned out although I wish those fissidens in front would hurry up and grow. The HC is also not spreading as quickly as I would liked it to...may have to transplant some to the front from the back, where the HC is growing lushly

By the way, I caught a picture of a baby helenas snail on the lawn! It's only about 2mm!!

----------


## xjiahua

i read through your post and i must give it to you for your attempts at achieving such beautiful scape 

may i know where did you purchase the marimo lawn ?

and how much did all the rocks set you back ?

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## blue33

Hope your Marimo lawn will not turn into "Cladophora" algae which is the usual case it'll happen. That would be a nasty algae you going to encounter. Good luck.

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## ranmasatome

Wa! so different! good that you have the plants in now! :Smile:

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## Navanod

> i read through your post and i must give it to you for your attempts at achieving such beautiful scape 
> 
> may i know where did you purchase the marimo lawn ?
> 
> and how much did all the rocks set you back ?


Thanks for the encouragement. Still a long way to go before this scape is considered complete though.
The marimo lawn is a DIY, with custom holes and curves to accomodate the rocks. Took about 5 balls of marimo and alot of time to tie

The rocks costed about a hundred dollars in total and can only be found at Biotope as far as I know




> Hope your Marimo lawn will not turn into "Cladophora" algae which is the usual case it'll happen. That would be a nasty algae you going to encounter. Good luck.


Thanks, I'm gonna need the luck. I specifically targetted BBA and Cladophora during the setting up of this tank. Sadly, BBA has proven to be immuned to quarantine and chemical warfare. It stays hidden or in the water until conditions are right. From research into red algaes, BBA seemed to disperse male and female reproductive cells into the water and these mate mid-water before settling on a suitable surface, kinda like barnacles. I'm thinking UV filtration or excel overdose will be very useful...and excel+CO2 is indeed proving very effective in stopping and killing the BBA so far. Its only been able to appear on corners of the rocks or on the plastic and glass accessories. I simply boiled those things and the BBA turned brown, red, and then white. Excel spot treatment took care of the remainers that can be seen.

As for cladophora...no signs of it so far (touch wood!) as it seemed to be very sensitive to excel or potassium permanganate baths. I think its important to choose marimo from clean sources. Those sitting at the bottom of dirty looking tanks covered with brown dirt is certainly not good. I can't bomb marimo with baths without killing everything, so the only way is to quarantine and look out for parts that seemed to be growing extra fast (potential clado)?

So far so good...I've killed off most of the algaes that showed up except green spot and some brownish hairy thing that likes to cling to the HC and sometimes the marimo lawn (hopefully not a form of clado?). I'm sure there're some BBA, staghorns and other less scary algaes around but can only hope that the EI method + CO2 + Excel can keep them under control

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## Navanod

> Wa! so different! good that you have the plants in now!


 :Smile: 
Erosion had been a constant pain to fight. Luckily you experts here adviced me to use lave chips as the base for the big rocks or everything would've came tumbling down by now! Lesson learnt: Never put in large number of amano shrimps until the soil's completely covered with plants!
Strangely, some rogue Hemianthus micranthemoides that sneaked in as HC are growing well in the foreground while the HC is simply refusing to grow there...
Some unknown moss (xmas?) also sneaked in with the zipper moss and somehow attached themselves to the main rock (on the left). They looked good there so I left it alone.

Now...where to plant the zipper moss? I'm thinking of sticking it in front of the last rock on the right, to cover the unnatural rock face?

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## xjiahua

> Thanks for the encouragement. Still a long way to go before this scape is considered complete though.
> The marimo lawn is a DIY, with custom holes and curves to accomodate the rocks. Took about 5 balls of marimo and alot of time to tie
> 
> The rocks costed about a hundred dollars in total and can only be found at Biotope as far as I know


i believe its going to be breathtaking once it matures. thanks for the info and i must say i'm definitely taking in some inspiration from you. ;D

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## ranmasatome

Actually looking at it again, i'm wondering if you're going to face issues with texture management?
You have how many species of moss in there? all of them giving different textures to the scape.
You going to moss wall it? would be a little unusual to moss wall an iwagami.

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## Navanod

> Actually looking at it again, i'm wondering if you're going to face issues with texture management?
> You have how many species of moss in there? all of them giving different textures to the scape.
> You going to moss wall it? would be a little unusual to moss wall an iwagami.


Certainly no moss wall! I had over-bought the US fissidens, which is why there're so many meshes lying around. All will eventually be grown as irregular overlapping domes at the foreground area only to simulated hilly terrain.
The zipper moss may or may not be incorporated. Anyway, its on a mesh so its somewhat modular. Am thinking of using it like hairgrass, around the base of the rocks  :Smile: 

As for the unknown moss stuck to the main rock...it's starting to show xmas moss'ish growth patterns, still considering what to do with it.
No other mosses in there otherwise

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## blue33

it looks pretty dark green overall due to low tech low light environment. small tank with no stem plant and so many fauna will lead to algae most time.

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## Goththug

Hi Navanod,

That's a very nice scape! I have just tore apart a Marimo Moss ball last night in an attempt to create a carpet effect just like yours. However, what i did was just tear up pieces of the moss ball and placing it flat on the foreground and pushing it a little into the substrate, it appears very artificial now and not as lush and green like yours. =( If i had come across this thread, i would have asked for your advise first before going ahead. 
May i ask how did you tie down the marimo to the rocks? Is it just like how you tie spiky moss to driftwood using fishing line?
Please pardon my questions as I'm new to this wonderful hobby!

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## Navanod

> it looks pretty dark green overall due to low tech low light environment. small tank with no stem plant and so many fauna will lead to algae most time.


I think my camera skill is the problem here. Paiseh, heh

Its supposed to be high light and tech. Its using a 3ft LED light (so there's light coming in from the side as well) with 3 LED tubes over the back of the tank. NA claims each tube can output about 19W equivalent of a T5. Plus there's a 2ft T5 2x24W for foreground added after I noticed that the main rock blocks quite abit of light, causing the foreground to suffer. 8 hours lighting per day.
CO2 is via a CO2 ceramic diffuser inside a reactor hidden in the cabinet below, switched on an hour before lights and there's a constant mist of fine CO2 bubbles in the tank during lighting hours.
Fertilization is EI dosage at 60% of max, with daily dose of Excel at 1.5x normal dose.
Added a large Atman 600 HOF on the right side of the tank to improve circulation and also surface agitation to eliminate the surface film. At $17, this thing is a steal and works like a charm.

Main fauna are the school of about 40 Boraras _brigittae_ and a large colony of painted fire red shrimps. A small group of CRS, a reticulated hillstream loach, a (fast reproducing) squad of Anentome _Helena_ snails and 4 otto catfish are the current denizens.

I'm using the hornwort and frogbit as a replacement for stem plants and its proving to be a formidable nutrient sink. The thing needs trimming every 2-3 days or it''ll engulf the right side of the tank. In a week (when I got lazy), the entire tank will be shaded by it. From your vast experience, has anyone managed to use hornwort to replace stem plants successfully?
I feel abit silly overdosing with EI only to have to use the hornwort to suck it all up. But on the other hand, this lets me dose EI without worry and be assured that there's no limiting nutrients at any time. The last I tested on Sunday after a 50% WC, nitrate was at about 15-20ppm.

Will post more pictures of the setup

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## Navanod

> Hi Navanod,
> 
> That's a very nice scape! I have just tore apart a Marimo Moss ball last night in an attempt to create a carpet effect just like yours. However, what i did was just tear up pieces of the moss ball and placing it flat on the foreground and pushing it a little into the substrate, it appears very artificial now and not as lush and green like yours. =( If i had come across this thread, i would have asked for your advise first before going ahead. 
> May i ask how did you tie down the marimo to the rocks? Is it just like how you tie spiky moss to driftwood using fishing line?
> Please pardon my questions as I'm new to this wonderful hobby!


Thank you.
I had also ripped apart a marimo ball at first, similar to what you had done. Bad idea. The smaller tufts are difficult to handle and always float away. The marimo cannot be planted into the soil as it'll not root easily as far as I know.
I originally intended for the lawn to be a fixed shape with the option of lifting it out entirely so I can clean it, so I had it tied to a pre-cut mesh of the desired shape.
Instead of ripping the balls apart, I found that its best if they are just opened up and pulled gently into a large flat carpet of the desired shape. This can then be easily tied to whatever you wish.

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## Goththug

> Thank you.
> I had also ripped apart a marimo ball at first, similar to what you had done. Bad idea. The smaller tufts are difficult to handle and always float away. The marimo cannot be planted into the soil as it'll not root easily as far as I know.
> I originally intended for the lawn to be a fixed shape with the option of lifting it out entirely so I can clean it, so I had it tied to a pre-cut mesh of the desired shape.
> Instead of ripping the balls apart, I found that its best if they are just opened up and pulled gently into a large flat carpet of the desired shape. This can then be easily tied to whatever you wish.


Thanks for the reply. Well since i already ripped mine apart, i think i will just observe and see what happens, cause it's currently not floating. Looking forward to future updates of your tank!

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## Navanod

Hi all,

Another long overdued update!



Some changes:

- Upgraded filter from Eheim 2028 to 2078. Flow is much improved! And I love how Eheim managed to move the coarse filter to the top tray. Very clever. Now its easy to clean and any shrimplets that got sucked in can be easily rescued!

- Got rid of the giant CO2 reactor and followed Shadow's recommendation (from his blog) and changed to a Boyu inline diffuser.

Boyu-CD-01_CO2_diff.jpg
Saved alot of space, flow is improved even more, no more CO2 burping from the canister and I'm starting to see HC pearling! And its only $6!!

- Eradicated all BBA and staghorns!!

- Relaid the marimo lawn and did some changes to it to hopefully improve the illusion of depth.

- Got rid of the unknown moss on the rocks. Will stick to US Fissiden and Zipper moss only.

- The "moss on rocks" method seemed to be going well. It covers areas where the HC cannot grow well and hopefully creates a turfs of trees effect on the foreground slope. Holds back erosion as well.

- Will be getting rid of the remaining US fissiden on mesh as there's no more space for them.

- Aggressively culling the shrimp population as well. Its exploding!

Thanks for all the advice and help so far from the gurus. Any thoughts on how to further improve the scape?

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## Kenng

Very very nice setup, I love your fissiden lawns

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## alvinchan80

Looking very well bro Nav... and you upgraded your canister too? omg... so... selling away your 2028? lol...
Maybe its time to switch to a CRS only tank? haha...

thanks for your recommendation on the Inline Diffusor.. will use it when i have done enough water change to remove the ammonia & nitrite...

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## newlife

I SIMPLY love the look of the Marimo lawn... 

Bro...keep update on the process if there is any attack from the Cladophora algae like what bro Adrain says...

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## Navanod

> Looking very well bro Nav... and you upgraded your canister too? omg... so... selling away your 2028? lol...
> Maybe its time to switch to a CRS only tank? haha...
> 
> thanks for your recommendation on the Inline Diffusor.. will use it when i have done enough water change to remove the ammonia & nitrite...


Thanks bro, although I feel that its very hard to maintain the iwagumi'ness if it remains a shrimp tank too.
Erm, 2028 sold already! hahaha!

Why CRS only tank? I like the fire reds too, very active compared to CRS. But have to admit that CRS looks more striking dued to the contrasting colors.





> I SIMPLY love the look of the Marimo lawn... 
> 
> Bro...keep update on the process if there is any attack from the Cladophora algae like what bro Adrain says...


Actually, this is the 2nd lawn. The 1st was partly affected by BBA and rather than try to rescue it and fight a protracted war with the BBA, I just threw it out.
Lesson learnt, don't install a marimo lawn until the tank is algae free because the marimo cannot be excel bombed.

This 2nd lawn costed even more (used up 10 balls, almost double) as I expanded the lawn to try and create a tapered look. Hopefully it enhances the illusion of depth.
No cladophora so far at all...I think I'm just lucky here.

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## calvin18

> Hi all,
> 
> Another long overdued update!


bro,

nice set up.

can I check how to you achieve the foreground (at the bottom right corner) and the plants on your main rock?

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## Navanod

> bro,
> 
> nice set up.
> 
> can I check how to you achieve the foreground (at the bottom right corner) and the plants on your main rock?


Thanks bro.
I seriously need to tidy up the scape and retake a photo. haha.

That foreground is made of flatten marimo balls.
The plant on my main rock? Thats zipper moss on a mesh...its not meant to be there, I just left it up there so that it can get more light and grow faster! hahaha!
From there, I cut and tie to rocks that you can see on the bottom left. The mesh is basically the farm

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## calvin18

> Thanks bro.
> I seriously need to tidy up the scape and retake a photo. haha.
> 
> That foreground is made of flatten marimo balls.
> The plant on my main rock? Thats zipper moss on a mesh...its not meant to be there, I just left it up there so that it can get more light and grow faster! hahaha!
> From there, I cut and tie to rocks that you can see on the bottom left. The mesh is basically the farm



I'm surprise marimo balls can be flatten to achieve that effect. nice

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## alvinchan80

> I'm surprise marimo balls can be flatten to achieve that effect. nice


its not really flatten.. actually torn up and tied to mesh/rock... not really easy... but bro Nav made it sounds so easy... hahahahahaha

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## limz_777

might be better to lawn using one type of moss maybe using darker green tone moss to highlight the rocks

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## ranmasatome

Nav..

This tank how ah? whats it look like now?

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## Bettacloud

wow. interesting dealing with marimo moss!! a pity they dont grow fast to merge together, if not the patchy look will be gone and it will be nicer!

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## PierceTan

agree with Bettacloud anyway it still looks good

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## Fishy Business

I still remember carrying the tank & cabinet to his place. It really makes me think back.
Glad that he puts it to good use! Good work!
Do update us your lastest work.

Best regards

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## Navanod

Hey, didn't expect to see anymore posts here. Sorry for the lack of updates as I was busy getting married this year  :Very Happy: 

Sadly, the scape is in a mess. There were 2 major power cuts for HDB to replace all the ailing electrical boards and meters in my block in march and the HC really didn't like it. 

Without the chiller for a day (and no lights, no CO2 and filtrations!) each time, the HC yellowed and large clumps starting uprooting themselves and melting  :Sad: 
With the HC gone, erosion buried most of the low lying fissidens and marimo...the rest is history

I'm no longer staying at my mum's place (which is where this tank is at) so this project is officially dead. Now its just a shrimp habitat until I can get a 2nd tank up after the honeymoon in september

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## benjaminong88

> Hey, didn't expect to see anymore posts here. Sorry for the lack of updates as I was busy getting married this year 
> 
> Sadly, the scape is in a mess. There were 2 major power cuts for HDB to replace all the ailing electrical boards and meters in my block in march and the HC really didn't like it. 
> 
> Without the chiller for a day (and no lights, no CO2 and filtrations!) each time, the HC yellowed and large clumps starting uprooting themselves and melting 
> With the HC gone, erosion buried most of the low lying fissidens and marimo...the rest is history
> 
> I'm no longer staying at my mum's place (which is where this tank is at) so this project is officially dead. Now its just a shrimp habitat until I can get a 2nd tank up after the honeymoon in september



Congrats on the marriage bro! nevermind got new house=welcome for new tanks  :Evil:  old tank dont go new tank dont come. hopefully can see another detailed journal again!

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## Fishy Business

> Hey, didn't expect to see anymore posts here. Sorry for the lack of updates as I was busy getting married this year 
> 
> Sadly, the scape is in a mess. There were 2 major power cuts for HDB to replace all the ailing electrical boards and meters in my block in march and the HC really didn't like it. 
> 
> Without the chiller for a day (and no lights, no CO2 and filtrations!) each time, the HC yellowed and large clumps starting uprooting themselves and melting 
> With the HC gone, erosion buried most of the low lying fissidens and marimo...the rest is history
> 
> I'm no longer staying at my mum's place (which is where this tank is at) so this project is officially dead. Now its just a shrimp habitat until I can get a 2nd tank up after the honeymoon in september


Congrats Bro. I will make you another tank after your honeymoon! no worries. but bigger this time! call me. 

Best regards

Roger

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