# Planted Tanks > Beginners' Corner >  So...The Journey Begins.......

## David

Hi Everyone

Tomorrow, the tank will be delivered to my home! In preparation, I went to 328 to pick up the basic essentials for a planted tank which is the base fert, minerals and gravel.

For those who know me, well, the brand choice is obvious... :Grin: 







I will update this thread as the progress develops......

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## David

Finally the tank came and got the Dennerle substrate heating cables in....poured in the base fert and gravel and got the hardscape in.....










Now to install the rest of the stuff....... :Very Happy:

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## |squee|

Heating cables  :Huh?:

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## limz_777

a good start , curious about the heat cables as well

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## blue33

The hardcore people believe the heating cable is good for the plant rooting and bacteria. Usually those who used stayed in cooler countries.

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## David

Perhaps this link helps on the reason on substate heating?

http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/A..._Substrate.htm

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## David

On the side, my tank concept is going to be an Amazonia Biotope. The target temperature is between 26C to 28C mostly 80% Echinos, 10% Cryptos and 10% Narrow leafed ferns. To encourage out-of-tank growth for the Echinos, I have suspended 2x150watt MH lamps 30cm from the water line. This means the water temp is going to be really warm.



To counter the warmth, I have placed in a TR20 Teco Chiller to sustain water the target water temp.



Based on previous experience, with substrate heating of 3C higher than the water temp, the plants have very good sustainable growth without the need to add suppliments to the base fert.

There is also no signs of the substrate going anaerobic after pulling up plants with some of the root system left behind due to snapping. There is also less fish muck as the difference in temperature 'pulls' in the muck into the base fert level. This can be seen as a darken layer on the base fert level.

While there is no exact science to prove the viability of substrate heating but through pass experiences, my personal opinion is that it works.....at least for me

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## limz_777

seldom see heater cable setup nowadays , will there be any foreground plants ?

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## David

yup...my all time favorite....E. Tennelus.. :Very Happy:

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## David

New update.....well the tank is up and running on Saturday night!!! Dragged Simon and CelticFish butts to Teo in the morning to buy veggies!!!

Made the first newbie mistake!!!....should have used acrylic plate and modeling pose scews to secure the large driftwood to anchor it to the base of the tank....thinking that I may move it later on, I chose to use stones to anchor it down at the sides...not taking precautions to weight it down in the center, started planting with 1/3 water filled.....after about 1/2 hour, the planting was done and time to fill up the tank.....at 50% filled.....

GUESS WHAT...the driftwood dislodged itself form the supporting rocks and shot up like a ROCKET.....I could have kicked myself for this newbie mistake....LOL!!!! No choice but to remove all the plants and drain out the water to reposition the driftwood.

At the current moment, 'haze' is in the tank with bacteria bloom....LOL!!! Will post pictures soon on the progress....

Foreground E: Tennelus
Mid ground: E. Parviflorus, Crypto Wentii, Crypto Lucian.
Mid ground rear: E. Vesuvius, E. Ozelot GreenCrypto Wentii, Crypto Lucian.
Rear ground: E. Hormanii Red (Narrow Leaf), E. Marble Queen, E. Vesuvius.

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## limz_777

there are two type of wood inside ? the behind one look darker

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## David

To be frank....I don't know what kind of wood they are....LOL!!!!

Just that it looks good and the color contrast is nice.....and just to confess, Simon chose it for me....because my choice of wood shape SUCKS!!!!! LOL!!!!

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## wongce

oh, you did not soak the bog wood first?? soaking it first will make it sink easier ( you may already know this, but forgotten)

I think both wood is same... only the surface is a bit dirty ...

more pictures when you are ready... hehe good scapes can't rush... :Smile:

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## limz_777

i also dont usually presoak wood , just wait for it to become water logged , more water changes to remove the tannin

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## David

Thanks limz_777

I was kind of banging that the rocks used to wedge it at the side was going to hold it down....it did until about 50% filled that the wood decided that it was stronger than the rocks ..... :Sad: ...LOL

Keeping my fingers crossed that the plants establish fast as I am back in KL now and the tank is left to its own device.....perhaps its a blessing in disguise as I am always impatient ......LOL

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## barmby

The oldies are back

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## AQMS

interesting.... im camping here ...

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## Urban Aquaria

Very interesting to see the classic methods of planted tank setup here... ie. heating cables, deponit mix + gravel etc.

I'm definitely following this thread for sure!  :Well done:

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## aquarius

The arrangement of the hardscape looks nice. Will be camping here.

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## David

@wongce....my sincere apology...in my hurry I confused your post with limz_777 as one...on closer reading I realized it....sorry

@zerofighterx101 and @Urban Aquaria.....go easy on an old timer that is too old to learn the new stuff .....LOL!!!

@aquarius....the hardscape you see in my early pictures is history...LOL....due to a stupid mistake....that look does not apply anymore....now its recovering from that mistake and hopefully no new ones....LOL

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## David

Hi everyone....its four days in since the tank started.....took a heavy gamble to kick start the tank.

1. pumped the tank with 300watts of MH lights hanging exactly 30cm from the waterline.
2. Set the lighting duration to 6 hours.
3. Pushed the KH to 5
4. Set the PH Controller to 6.6 which means the lowest point it goes is 6.5 and the highest point is 6.7. Considering the KH of 5, I am pushing CO2 levels 1 PH level higher than I should.
5. Chiller set temp at 27C so fluctuation level is 27C to 28C
6. Substrate heater set temp at 27.5C so fluctuation substrate temp is 28C to 29C.

The bacteria bloom has cleared, no sign of algae so far...thanks to 20 yamatoes, 3 Ottos and 2 Whiptail Cats.

Its nothing much to look at so far.....cannot wait to remove that HUNK OF ROCK from the wood, tie narrow leafed ferns and put it back behind the E. Marble Queen!!!



Scaping this tank to an Altum Species Tank.... On the left side of the tank is the E. Hormanii Narrow Leaf Red....Hope fully it will look like this...



In the mid ground of the E. Hormanii are the E. Parviflorus.....the concern here is that there are two version the larger and the smaller....hopefully, judging by the emerged leaves...its the larger....



Next to the E. Hormanii is the E. Marble Queen.....hopefully to get it to grow out of tank....reading from sources about the E. Marble Queen, the conditions must be right to get it to grow large...hopefully mine does not remain a midget.....



where the drift wood begins next to the E. Marble Queen is a mix of Crypto Wentii and Lucian should it grow well there will be a mixture of reddish brown with green....the smaller rocks holding down the first wood will be again tied with narrow leaf fern and placed back.

Beside the grouping of Cryptos....the middle section of the two wood to the back right up to where the diffuser is is laced with E. Vesuvius....according to Tropica, it grows up to the max height of 20cm....however the runners I have seen goes straight up....never comes down....so when that happens...cross my fingers that that would increase the height at the rear end.



Lastly to the extreme right is the E. Ozelot Green.....should give some cover to the stuff hanging down the tank as well as the break off where the wood ends....it should have been buried into the gravel to look at root endings.....unfortunately....it floated and now its recovery.



Will update again when its about 2 weeks in ......perhaps ready for peripheral plants to be added.....

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## David

Its 2 weeks in. Thanks to soltari007, I managed to get two good sized Echino Uruguayensis and a bonus find of Echino Bleheri. An impromptu decision to re-visit Mr Teo yield a fresh crop of Crypto Balansae. The need to achieve 90% surface planting, I gotten more Crypto Lucian. There was a fresh harvest of submersed Ludwigia Cuba of which I resisted all temptation to buy them...they were in very good condition.



Finally collected my 9 Altums. Nothing much to do with the tank now but wait for the plants to fully establish and grow.



Finally....I can remove the HUNK OF ROCK.....LOL!

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## barmby

Abit overcrowding David. I think 3 altums are ideal. Believe me. = ) You can get away with so much more

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## David

@barmby....its a species tank and nothing else is going in. Need at least 6 to get them to school properly...they are now averaging about 20cm tall fin to fin....once and if they get to about 25 to 30....they will be moved to my office tank which is twice the size of my current tank....Issue is, how do I get them across the border....LOL!

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## barmby

OK. I was thinking about apistogamma along the line ; ) since shrimp keeping is out of the equation totally confirm plus chop

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## David

@barmby...actually you are not wrong .....the 9 Altums will do fine for now but they will out grow (or rather not grow to full potential) my current tank. The long term plan is to move them across the border as Altums are ridiculously expensive and really hard to come by.....I will be finding a pair of Apisto just to ensure uneaten BWs will be picked off.

Concern right now is the bio load. Got my son to dose FB7 for 5 days....Now out of stock in LFS.....fedup...changed to Seachem version of FB7

PS:.....they are hunting down my Yamatoes....got to go C328 to get larger Yamatoes....

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## barmby

You may want to try glass shrimps..... ; ) definitely eat the uneaten BWs. 

In my experience, BWs attract BBA. .. for my case ..no matter eaten or uneaten. once I feed, bba start appearing then I use excel to push them back. once I stop BW, BBA stop

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## limz_777

get ghost shrimps , work wonders and cheap

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## David

Glass shrimps and Ghost shrimps are the same?

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## barmby

Same I think. the common shrimps in the pond!

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## limz_777

yes the ones sold as feeders

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## David

Thanks guys.....will get them this weekend...I am assuming they do not do the same job as yamatoes?

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## limz_777

they do eat algae , but i find adult ghost shrimp are quite brazen , if your hands go in for a trim they will give you free pedicure  :Laughing:

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## David

wow...that brazen....LOL!!!! thanks for the heads up.....I know where to ask the wifey to put her hands for a free pedicure....LOL

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## kapitan

:Smile: 
*ped·i·cure*

/ˈpɛdɪˌkyʊər/ Show Spelled [ped-i-kyoor] Show IPA 
noun
1. professional care and treatment of the feet, as removal of corns and trimming of toenails. 
2. a single treatment of the feet. 

*man·i·cure*

/ˈmænɪˌkyʊər/ Show Spelled [man-i-kyoor] Show IPA noun, verb, man·i·cured, man·i·cur·ing. noun 
1. a cosmetic treatment of the hands and fingernails, including trimming and polishing of the nails and removing cuticles.

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## David

> *ped·i·cure*
> 
> /ˈpɛdɪˌkyʊər/ Show Spelled [ped-i-kyoor] Show IPA 
> noun
> 1. professional care and treatment of the feet, as removal of corns and trimming of toenails. 
> 2. a single treatment of the feet. 
> 
> *man·i·cure*
> 
> ...


Then its both manicure and pedicure.....LOL!!!!

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## diazman

sweet thread. Camping here  :Grin:  Those altums are sweet looking!

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## David

Thanks...I really love fhose Altums ...wasted my tank in KL is waiting for the one here to be established...someone is selling Peruvian Green Discus....I be so greedy to get them for the other tank....timing is not ideal.

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## David

This week is the critical week where the bioload just jumped due to the Altums. As I am going to be away for the week, water change is not possible. I got my son to dose the tank 50ml of Seachem Stability to seed the tank for the next two weeks. A simple water smell test by my son seems to me that this product is working...I am impressed.

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## David

four weeks in. Growth rate really SUCKS!!! Plants are somehow not growing as fast as it should. 8 hours of lights, a good layer of base fert and substrate, KH of 5 and PH pushed to 6.5. Yet plants look 'pale' of a yellow shade and not bubbling with not a single sign of green algae. This is not how I remembered it years back which led me to feel that the tap water perimeter in terms of trace elements has changed somehow....conclusion, our waters are now sterile.

Time for action. I went to the local LFS and picked up the following items to dose the water column:

Dennerle S7 for weekly water dosing



Dennerle E15 for fortnightly dosing



Dennerle V30 for monthly dosing



For good measure, got the Echino and Crypto starter tabs....



FINALLY...after the startertabs and S7 dosing...plants are bubbling and first signs of green spot algae on glass....now the fight begins...finally....bought the algae scraper from BorneoWild for algae scrapping before water change and this has to happen today....



Of all places the whiptail cat laid her eggs is on the glass 1/3 height below the waterline.......

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## limz_777

is the outlet pipe nearby ?

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## David

Not exactly but in the direction of the flow path.

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## limz_777

by the way , where is the male whiptail ? he should be guarding the eggs

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## David

He guards them when the lights goes off. He moves away (but never far away) when the lights are on.

Just ask my son and he says all still there though. Hopeful they hatch on Sat or Sun...if not I will not be able to do scrapping or water change

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## David

Don't think the fries will survive with 2 pairs of aspitos? But then again the two males are too busy fighting each other and the two females are also catfighting..... :Very Happy:

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## limz_777

yes , hard to survive , with altums looking for a tasty snack too

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## David

Six week in....adding the S7 was a good and bad thing.... :Confused: 

The plants are definitely getting on well. non stop bubbling plus bigger bubbles coming from the substrate...The down side to it when I came back from Malaysia is freaking green spot algae...an unbelievable amount of it...Part of the reason was that the wife and kid forgot to top-up water and it dropped below the skimmer...the thick swirling layer of protein.....YUCK!!!

Out came the scrapper and 30% water change (could not go beyond 30% due to the Whiptail Catfish eggs sitting on the glass) and this has to happen....bacteria bloom....AGAIN!





I think it is a bacteria bloom and not green water...cannot really see clearly because the plants are green in nature and the water has a slight tint of tannin due to the wood. What do you guys think? On hind side its probably a bad idea to have the water from tap to tank knowing that its now NewWater and the Chloramine knocked off my biofilter or is it my fanning of the substrate stirred up access nutrients left behind from fish poo?

Anyway got myself 8 Nerite Snails and placed it in my tank. Hardworking fellas and I hope that they don't either become suicidal and crawl out of the tank or becoming escargot meal for the altums....Got some Hornwort to float in the tank to take up access nutrients?





Any pointers...anyone? Really like to hear some opinions on this issue.....

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## AQMS

oooh man...... 
It look like green water to me.

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## kohanson

Looks like green water, maybe can try switching off the lights for 3 days in a row and wrap a black cloth around it. Ensure that no light seeps into your tank during thiseriod. This will kill off the algae.

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## li_gangyi

If it's bacteria or green water, if you can loan or buy a cheap UV filter and put it on for a few days, it'll probably clear everything up... I haven't had any luck with clearing green water any other way.

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## thebaldingaquarist

What I did to settle green water in one night...
Daphnia! 50 cents. Settled my tank in one evening. 

But you have Altums, so probably need $1 worth if daphnia.

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## troyz

it looks sweet David...nice planted tank with Altums n the lightset too...
old timer at its best...its been along time since I spoke to you, if I am not wrong 6years back..
that time you are selling your stuff right...

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## milk_vanilla

Pull up your light, around 11 inches + 
Your MH + fully yet cycle tank are reasonable common culprit

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## milk_vanilla

Other day water change, reduce light window length

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## David

@Zero.....shut up (joking).... :Laughing: !!!

@kohanson...Yes I have to agree with Zero and you that its green water which confirms my fear. I did consider the light out period but as I am not in Singapore Mondays to Fridays, not such a good idea. Getting the wife and kiddo to go beyond feeding and topping up water is going to be a feat on its own.... :Laughing: !!!

@li_gangyi...My Teco chiller does come with a UV filter built in. Problem is, the instruction says its an optional part that can be purchased and placed in. I did try turning it on when I first got it. Problem is, instructions says that if its installed, the LED on the front panel lights up..if its not installed it will not light up...my is blinking.... :Laughing: !!!

@Erctheanda...thanks for confirming that Daphnia eats single cell algae. But as mentioned, I have Altums in my tank and will $1 worth of Daphnia be enough to clear a 120x50x60? before they get polished off by the Altums?

@troyz...its as sweet as the green water gets!!!  :Laughing: !!! Old timer at the most embarrassing moment you mean... :Embarassed:  :Laughing: !!! The purpose of this thread I started is the journey of a planted tank and I want to share the actual going on till the end of its first year. Hopefully this will help the new people coming into the hobby....you coming for the excursion this August?

@milk_vanilla...I did pull it up to 12in ....wifey was making so much noise about stray light that in order to save my ears, it came back down again. I cut photo period from 8 hours to 7 hours. I did consider 6 hours but I noticed that the plants optimum photo period is on the 7th and 8th hour.

I still cannot get to do large water change because the Whiptail Catfish eggs are not hatched..ARRRGGHH!!!!

Thanks guys for all the inputs....looks like I got a fight worth the fight....I could have kicked myself for dosing the tank with S7 a week ago. Against my better judgment I whacked a full dosage!!

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## David

I just found out that a cockanathan of a contractor who come to the house turned off my substrate heater to use the electrical point and did not put it back! There goes my secondary filter.... :Mad:

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## thebaldingaquarist

@david, I have a tank that's a tad bit larger than yours, but have 4 endlers in it only. I took 50 cents of daphnia and sieved them in. The next morning, no more green water. 
I have a planted tank too. I guess it helps. Though your altum's feed cycle will be screwed up for the day or two.

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## AQMS

Ka!ka!ka! cockanathan contractor.... :Laughing: 
So what is your next action?
Light out and 2sgd daphnia...????

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## David

Just bought the UVC kit for Teco. 15 watt lamp. And bought a spare bulb...at a whopper cost of 400 bucks....the Whiptail Cat eggs should be hatching any time now as its the 6th day. Do a 50% water change and turn on UVC...cut lighting duration to 7 hours.

Decided not to go the Daphnia way...I saw the amount of Daphnia at $1...IT'S ALOT!!!! I am afraid it's going to be a hairy issue as I am leaving for KL.

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## Ingen

Where to get daphnia? I can't seem to find any at Clementi (both shops) anymore.

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## thebaldingaquarist

This is off topic but..
I get mine from y618, call to ask before going down. 
Seaview has it. Only on sat and Sundays. Sometimes, Saturday afternoon it will be sold out..

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## David

328 have. You got to call Auntie in the morning and inform her you want. If not wrong the delivery guy comes in the morning and she just takes a few bags for her regulars on weekdays and more on weekends

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## nicholasliao

David I seriously think you should collect some of your green water and start a daphnia culture. 

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

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## David

You want I teach you how to get green water...hey need skill to get okay... :Very Happy:

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## Ingen

> 328 have. You got to call Auntie in the morning and inform her you want. If not wrong the delivery guy comes in the morning and she just takes a few bags for her regulars on weekdays and more on weekends


Oh, I go there twice a week to get Daphnia but always end up getting baby BBS cause they never have it. Off topic again, I have not seen the aunty for weeks now.

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## David

She is there..just saw her...maybe when too busy ...she takes cover upstairs and eat snake... :Very Happy:

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## felix_fx2

david, i believe buying freshwater clams will help. I am using them for tanks along the corridor (most of the outside tanks have 1 or 2)
I only know seaview/C328 selling, with seaview most commonly have them. C328 it is near the feeder fish and priced higher then seaview (but then 1$ difference and your living closer to seaview)

beware! never put them directly on the substrate they dig in one! i use left over pots from plants and using sucker, attach to glass. if they live long, it's not exactly a good thing.

p.s: corkanathan? LOLOL i reading this in office..... almost puke out my coffee

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## nicholasliao

Put daphnia in, can raise a culture and can get rid of green water. Best solution! 

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## David

The Daphnia is a good alternative, problem is, I am not here to monitor and control the situation as it changes.

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## David

@Felix....you mean the fresh water 'Hum' (Local Dialect for Clam) quite big and when I saw if at 328, I wish I brought my Jack Knife and lemon... :Very Happy: 

You like the word Cockanathan huh..... :Very Happy:

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## nicholasliao

I dont think clams are a good alternative if you have substrate. They tend to burrow in and die there. The amount of ammonia that they release can literally wipe out a whole colony.

As for daphnia, might be good to keep about half of that water and start one. Its algae rich. Yummy foods for daphnia

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## David

Found out last night that the blinking LED lights means UV option not installed.... :Mad:  When to Yi Hu today to purchase my Teco UV option which is a 15watt UVC lamp. According to the instruction it says 5 simple steps....unfortunately it was not so. What was supposedly a 10 minute job turned into an hour. Trust the manufacturer to give unclear instructions... :Laughing: 



Bought an extra bulb for good measure at a total whopper cost of 400 bucks.... :Sad: 

Anyway, did a 30% water change and not taking any chances got myself a bottle of SeaChem Prime. Hope this is of some good. Wonder if getting the 2 gallon is worth the 100 bucks...what do you guys think? Or is there any alternative brand that is just as good?



Did some algae scrapping just to tidy up the three sides and the best scrapper I found was actually this plastic one....its actually not for aquarium use but it really easy to use at any angle or direction.



Well leaving the UV on 24/7 and see if it clears up by the weeks end. Week 7 and 8 is coming which means first pruning....

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## limz_777

i use prime for my waterchanges too so far ok , careful nowadays many people lost expensive livestock due to waterchanges , i try to dose extra these days

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## milk_vanilla

Or Seachem safe also do the same job, with better cost efficient  :Wink:

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## David

Okay thanks guys. Hope the UVC works.

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## troyz

hi David...cant join you guys for this excursion...maybe next time perhaps...
if you are free one of the weekends, lets go to Teo's farm...its been 3 years since I visit them...

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## David

Its been 72 hours since the UVC was turned on and here is the results....

18 Hours In....



36 Hours In....



54 Hours In...

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## nicholasliao

Looks to be clearing up!

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## blue33

The bacteria is floating everywhere, best way is to change more water frequently, the *sudden over bioload* is giving the tank/bacteria hard time. Using UV doesn't help much, they're much efficient on green water.

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## felix_fx2

> @Felix....you mean the fresh water 'Hum' (Local Dialect for Clam) quite big and when I saw if at 328, I wish I brought my Jack Knife and lemon...
> 
> You like the word Cockanathan huh.....


Hum is good... provided you don't drop them in the tank.
Btw, my god.... $400 for the UV add-on? you should pay your son to change water on a ad-hoc basis.. save more LOL.... (imo your BB not fully up, like adrian correct i also agree with that)




> I dont think clams are a good alternative if you have substrate. They tend to burrow in and die there. The amount of ammonia that they release can literally wipe out a whole colony.
> 
> As for daphnia, might be good to keep about half of that water and start one. Its algae rich. Yummy foods for daphnia
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


i kept mine away from substrate, put them in a pot/cage those you get left over LFS plants. Attach a sucker to the pot and stick them to the glass, however depending on them still means my plants can't grow fast enough to stop green-water.

daphnia actually is quite good as they feast on greenwater, while fish feast on them  :Razz:

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## David

Too much muck at the substrate level. The current hose I am using is just to large and cannot get into tighter spaces. So I decided to make my own gravel cleaner ...its actually a flexible CO2 hose attached to a harder CO2 hosing. with this, the flow rate is much slower and this give me more time to siphon out most unwanted waste and/or rotting material....



While I was at NA Aquarium I stumbled onto this...Dennerle Gold 7....Gosh I didn't know that they still have this....Its basically, or supposedly a growth booster for plants. Used this years before.

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## barmby

Did you buy 100pills for D7 gold?!?

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## David

yup...its the 100 pills

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## David

Hi everyone...

Just a quick update what's going on. Its a 3 day holiday in Malaysia so there is no need to go back to KL this week... :Grin: 

With so much time in my hands = symptoms of itchy hand waiting to happen....

Did my first pruning yesterday and got rid of immersed leaves off the Echinodorus and of course the dreaded Crypto Meltdown leaves. I got all sorts of algae growing ...you name it I got it!!!!... :Grin: ....most if not all are associated with too much light.

So I decided to bring my MH light set to extend the length of the power cables so that I can hoist it higher up. So I brought it down to an electrician to get the job done. My Gosh..it was a REAL PAIN just to get to the wire joint and in the process, one of the electrical lighting point broke. Thank goodness it was a generic part. Not much choice, I left the light set with the electrician, and because its the Raya and National Day holidays, I am not getting it back till next week or so.

So its off to get a backup light set and as a typical techy junkie. I want to try LEDs this time since all the hype I have been reading. I was introduced to the Mitras, a really advance LED light set made in Germany. Its got everything one can think off...and this is how it looks like. Unfortunately there is no planted version being brought.



So I ended up with 2 x 120watt (8000K) Razor. After two hours of installing and adjustment to the pendant, its finally up and this is how it looks....



Okay, the good thing is that my home does not light up like a star ship anymore.... :Grin:  the bad thing is that it really looks dim. Perhaps my eye balls are used to the brightness of the MH lights....but I am quite concern....I drop the height down to about 5in off the waterline.

Since the hooks on the ceiling is towards the back of the tank due to the MH, now with LEDs.. the light cast is just barely making it to the front of the tank.



Sharp drop in photosynthesis bubbling....this is going to slow down growth rate....which is not always a bad thing...my concern is that there is insufficient lights to support the lush growth of the Tennellus and meltdown happens....

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## limz_777

nice and sleek , maybe i might have miss it , your tank is a 4 footer ?

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## Berny

6, if I'm not wrong, just scroll back and read, on first post

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## David

4 footer in Sing and 6 footer in KL

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## milk_vanilla

Cheers David, fix your MH. Bring them on  :Wink:

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## felix_fx2

David how come you lowered it?
Razor is with focused optics correct? IMHO from the pictures the center part seems to be getting too much attention.

P.S, Starship Balestier is it near lor limau ? I just remembered it's pretty near Starship Toa Payoh

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## saintdevilz

very nice tank

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## David

@saintdevilz

Thanks .....much has happened since my last update. about two weeks back, I gave up the Altums. This is because they have grown and the fish water ratio is pushed beyond the balance and had a serious bout of green water. As I am not always around to take care of the tank, POW!!!!!

With green water comes all other algae and the worse of them all is the thread algae that grows on the leaf edge.....Action taken was:

1. 50% water change and UV 24/7 for a week.

2. Did another 30% water change and fert the water column at 50% dosage.

3. Manually remove algae either by hand or removing the whole leaves.

4. Pump up CO2.

5. Gave up the Altums and got 12 False Rosy Tetras and 10 cardinal Tetras.

6. Got a second canister filter to improve water circulation.

Now its much better and will be posting new pictures up soon to update the journey.

----------


## milk_vanilla

David, is your current filter capacity hit 1:10 ratio recommendation? If too less beyond probably you should consider to have that complied. Especially if your tank is considered high tech and lots of fauna, BIG fauna.

sent from tapatalk

----------


## David

Milk, on paper specs, both filters are hitting 1 : 12 filtration ratio. problem with it is that I can only hit this ratio at max power. At max power of both filters, the whole tank is like a whirlpool.... :Opps:  Have to cut both filters down to about half its power so technically, its at 1 : 6 there about? The thing is that I have a substrate heater that helps in the filtration process. Its now 3 month plus? You can see the muck of decayed vegetation and fish poo being slowly sucked to the bottom to the base fertilizer level to be decomposed and in the process re-generate the base fertilizer.

I will take a pictures to update.....

----------


## David

Hi everyone...just an update what is going on with my tank....

Since the last bout of Green Water....which by far the WORST I ever had, I had practically ALL types of Algae growing in my tank....you name it I have it... :Crying:  At the onset, did a 50% water change and I still could see anything (that was how bad the GW was). After 4 days of UV sterilization....I could see again  :Laughing:  My Java Fern and Moss are condemned....literally overran with algae and had to be disposed.

The E. Tennulus was also over run with BGA of which spend hours syphoning out BGA with the small siphon I made and that also marks the second 50% water change. Removed some of the badly infected leaves of the E. Uraguaysis and E. Bleheri. Fortunately the Marble Queen and Uraguaysis Red was spared for some strange reason.

Action taken....the Altums were removed, to reduce the bioload and in place, 10 Cardinal and 10 False Rosy Tetra. Pumped up the CO2 and bought a second filter to improve water circulation. 30 Yamatoes Shrimps where re-introduced as the last batch of Yamatoes was hunted as food by Altums.

Managed to get rid of most of the Algae except for one stubborn 1cm thread like greenish looking algae that loves growing on the leaves and one WEIRD green bread like algae that seems to pearl under high CO2.....

The Second filter....



1st Rain Bar Position A Week Ago...



Stubborn Algae as it is a 4 days ago on E. Uraguaysis





Marble Queen Doing Well and Spared From Algae....



Swa...Don't-Know-What-Its-Called..Tang....recovered after the GW and turned transperant brown.....



Bonus price of pond snail are now in my tank. They seem to love large leafed plants like the E. Ozelot Green and is the first plant that has to be uprooted and disposed of...not only because of snails but the leaves are getting too large and blocking water circulation...and in place a second E. Uraguaysis Red....



Any kind soul can identity this algae?...It looks like green beard algae that seems to pearl under high CO2.....to be frank it looks quite nice .....





My tank as it is yesterday.....with the rain bar re-positioned in the left right position....will be adding a wave maker soon......



Couldn't find the Dwarf Chain Loach anywhere...so to control the Pond and Ramhorn Snails....I pushed CO2 and dropping PH since last week....as at Saturday, snails are crawling out of the tank...Nerites Snails just clamp up really tight and not moving....spend 45 minutes hauling them out of my tank into a large jar of water....

As of last night...my two aquatic ignorant helpers unanimously voted that pond snails are cute and as they crawl out of my tank, the two of them pop them back in...... :Crying:

----------


## Ingen

Hahah, my pea puffers would love those cute snails of yours too!

Just curious, in regards to your razor light, why is the another flap without lights or you turned it off?

----------


## David

@ingen....pea puffer?....you mean the really tiny yellow looking puffers?...Do they not nip off the fins off your other fishes?

What other flap?....My razors are 2 footers and have only 2 groupings of LEDs.... :Smile:

----------


## Ingen

> @ingen....pea puffer?....you mean the really tiny yellow looking puffers?...Do they not nip off the fins off your other fishes?
> 
> What other flap?....My razors are 2 footers and have only 2 groupings of LEDs....


I used to keep CPD with the three pea puffers in my wall mount tank. Pea Puffers got bullied by CPD instead, however, I accidentally killed most of my CPD during water change. Last week, I tried putting in some color shrimps from my 1 ft cube and the shrimps were still alive after a week. I introduced yellow back into the tank on Saturday, so far all are alive (7 of them went over my overflow system). I feed the pea puffers baby brine shrimps and snails, no aggressive trait so far. I read online that it could be they are still young and they get more aggressive as they mature. One thing for sure, they are pretty effective in hunting snails. And if all else fails, I will just keep the pea puffers. They are fun to watch and glide through the water like submarine, very calming, peaceful and "dumb" looking.

Looking at the picture you posted. The LEDs are "inside" and the outer flap are not lighted.

----------


## David

any pictures of your pea and yellow puffers?....and how big do they get?

The last time I was at Seaview....I saw puffer the size of Godzilla......!!!! :Shocked:  :Laughing:

----------


## Ingen

About 1". I bought polyart but the color not very nice. I purposely choose those that hide or run away from others in the tank (cowardly ones). I saw some at GC too.

Here's a video of the cute little puffer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=SG&h...&v=6o1fw9jtRNc

----------


## David

Hi everyone

Just an update what is going on with my tank. Managed to recover from the algae infestation and got it under control. The only problem was the wood has very unslightly dead BBA on it. Looking at it really pisses me off. Tried to remove the wood to try scraping it off. Unfortunately, I have wedged it down well and the E. Tennellus have gown so much over it that its impossible to remove it.

So the whole weekend was to tear down the tank and start from ground zero. Lesson learnt:

1. Respect the 1cm of fish to 3 liters of water ratio.

2. Do not let E. Tennellus grow unchecked. Prune or cut off runners that are not suppose to grow.

3. Crypto Balansae can stay dormant over two months or so and they react well to CaCO3.

4. MH lights are best hung at least 1.5 to 2ft above water line.

5. A totally zero maintenance planted tank does not exist. Ignore it and pay the price...hahahaha!!!!

Since I have to tear down the tank, its time to try growing something new. Removing Echinodorus roots was a real pain especially with a substrate heater, the roots get large and spread very well. Yanking it out is going end up getting all my base fertilizer into the substrate or worse into the water column. Thank goodness I remembered how I did it years back...

Gently rocking the base of the plant, use a finger to poke the substrate to loosen the gravel exposing the the main rooting system. Cut the plant below the base and let the roots sit there for an hour or so. The roots tend to shrink a little after an hour and pull each main root one by one.....2 stupid hours just for this. As for the E. Tennellus was quite another story...another 1 over hour just to remove it. What was a waste was my Cryptos....because of the E Tennellus....most of my Cryptos got yanked out with it even though sections of the E. Tennellus was cut prior to yanking.

Waited so long for the Balansae to grow and when it finally gain traction it has to be yanked out.

A thin layer of new gravel was put in to ensure no leeching of nutrients from the base fertilizer that some how surfaced during the root removal. Threw in some rocks.....no wood this time and a whole lot of stemmed plants as this time I want to learn how to prune Rotalas to get the shape and growth thickness. plants of choice:

Rotala Indica Green Variant

Rotala Indica Red Variant

Blyxa Japonica

Hair Grass

I have always thought E. Tennellus was difficult to plant....well I thought wrong...Hair Grass is the Ultimate and after reaching half of the tank intended for Hair Grass, I want to throw it away.... :Laughing: 

Quite a far bit of Blyxa Japonica when into the tank. Some of it will be removed later on for other mid ground plants like Cryptos to go into. This is to buy time for the Hair Grass to establish. Planting Cryptos now may not be a good because if the Cryptos establishes first, the runners of the Cyptos will start to spread all over the Hair Grass area.

Perhaps later on, Luwegias after the Rotalas. At the same time trying my hand at gluing ferns and moss to rocks....



Sorry guys the image is not exactly clear....but this is how the tank looks now at day 1. I think its time to get lily pipes?....with the rain bar, seems like the stemmed plants are being pushed in the direction of the current.

I have seen lily pipes with a ball.....any opinions which is better and in what ways?

----------


## Ingen

Takes a lot of frustration to rescape a tank, I did it once for my wall mount tank that was literally an hair algae tank, I feel you!

Looks very "Open" as compared to your last scape, I'm also interested to know more about this lily pipe with ball too.

----------


## David

Not really difficult to reset the tank. Its just time invested but if its to make me a better planter, its worth it. Looks open now because the plants has not kicked it.

Hopefully in about 1 months time, I start to prune. I am too skewered towards rooted plants like Echinodorus, Cryptos and Vals.....very little experience with stemmed plants and learning the skill how to grow and prune them to very interesting growth patterns and shape.

----------


## bennyc

Hi David,

hope this helps but it is in chinese.



or are you talking about this instead:

----------


## limz_777

the lily pipe which direct down will be a better choice 

one thing i notice about predatory planted tank , waste output is high thus required lots of maintenance

----------


## David

@bennyc....looks like the last one in the first picture but I don't remember it pointing upwards...more like straight ahead but side ways....

@limz_777 I think you are right the lily pipe that direct flow downwards is more ideal for me...thanks.....and agree with you on predatory planted tank...especially pushing pass the fish to water ratio, not around to monitor and have two ignorant assistant at home ......hahahhaaa!!!!!

----------


## felix_fx2

david, did you do rescape in the weekend? i did 1 rescape too  :Very Happy: 

do you mean the ball that is cut on the sides? that's to slow the flow inside the tank, for folks who wan less flow in the tank while having same flowrate for filter.

----------


## bennyc

Lily pipes are high maintenance (need to scrub the pipe when it turns black with algae or slime) and fragile. My inlet pipe is broken at the silts and is held together by pipe/hose. The filtration capability in my opinion is also reduced. Lily pipe are only good aesthetically.

----------


## David

@Felix...yes decided to rescape over the weekend thus my disappearance on the forum... :Wink: 

Just went to the LFS and yes, it is a ball with the two ends cut off.

@Bennyc...thanks for the info...it's basically aesthetics I am after because there will be nothing covering both the rain bar and inlet pipes.

I seem to noticed that letting stemmed plants grow all the way to the top is sort of out dated and the trend to to keep the top section clear to give a sense or space?

If I do manage to acquire the skill to keep the Rotala Indica compact and low, the Ehiem pipes will be an eye sore.

----------


## kohanson

> Lily pipes are high maintenance (need to scrub the pipe when it turns black with algae or slime) and fragile. My inlet pipe is broken at the silts and is held together by pipe/hose. The filtration capability in my opinion is also reduced. Lily pipe are only good aesthetically.


Yes, agree with you. My lily pipe is now brown and not sure will I break the glass if I take them out. Any convenient way to clean the lily pipes?

----------


## David

Do you guys use a double tap?

----------


## bennyc

> Yes, agree with you. My lily pipe is now brown and not sure will I break the glass if I take them out. Any convenient way to clean the lily pipes?


i usually clean it with Marina Flexible Coil Brush, even the pipes to the canister or else the algae will return shortly. Another way is to soak it in diluted bleach to kill the algae chemically and you will need to wash it throughly to remove the traces. I prefer the former for the ease and time involve. Either way you have to be careful handling the glass. A knock while taking out, putting back or cleaning might break it.

----------


## bennyc

> Do you guys use a double tap?


David, i see you are more less decided. just to give you some tips. I add more suction cups to "hold" the lily pipes (i did not secure the pipes properly and my dad broken it when he open the cabinet and the inlet pipe just drop in the tank and it broke)

you might want to see the lily length, the outlet is limited by its U bend, meaning you cannot lower it further. Therefore, a certain water level have to be maintained or else the water surface disturbance is quite substantial.

double tap will be easier for maintenance as well as controlling the water flow at inlet and outlet. But my canister already has the valve at the connectors. And i am very kiasu to have at least 3 suctions for each inlet/outlet. so i leave the top of the canister dangling while i wash the media and change the filter wool. 3 suctions are very strong. Haha

----------


## David

Not exactly decided as yet as I appreciate all the inputs given. Basically it's to tell me..think twice before doing it.

Have you seen an electrician's flexible wire puller? Basically it a very long and very flexible plastic cable with a head that has an eye hole that looks like the tip of a rrifle cleaning rod?

The use it to pull new wirings through existing concealed electrical conduits.

I believe can be used?

----------


## bennyc

for pulling through pipe and outlet lily pipe but not for inlet lily pipe(only one hole nothing to pull through) Actually, the inlet broke is a blessing in disguise cleaning is much simpler now. i just pop the broken part off and pull through.

----------


## David

Gosh...I didn't think of the inlet...yes it will be tough to clean that one.

----------


## kohanson

> i usually clean it with Marina Flexible Coil Brush, even the pipes to the canister or else the algae will return shortly. Another way is to soak it in diluted bleach to kill the algae chemically and you will need to wash it throughly to remove the traces. I prefer the former for the ease and time involve. Either way you have to be careful handling the glass. A knock while taking out, putting back or cleaning might break it.


Thanks bro. Probably will look for it during the weekend at seaview. If not, will get from ebay.

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## bennyc

i saw it at seaview and C328 at limited stock. but i bought it at pet lovers centre.

----------


## thebaldingaquarist

Hi david,

May i ask, what happen to all the plants and wood in the previous setup?

----------


## David

Condamned...wood because of algae and plants because of snails.

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## thebaldingaquarist

> Condamned...wood because of algae and plants because of snails.


Sad... Sob...

I was camping in marketplace for an hour or so.. Hahaha!

----------


## felix_fx2

> Condamned...wood because of algae and plants because of snails.


 :Opps:  suddenly, that sentence reminds me of shadow...

----------


## David

Hey Felix...I don't normally sell stuff away especially wood, plants and fishes.

Having said that, I do not give away things that I feel is going to be detrimental to someone else's tank.

I did consider giving them away but considering that certain algae may look dead but are not. There is also pond snails eggs to consider too.

----------


## David

But since you asked, I have a pair of Aspitos to give away. Let me know if you want them. Breeding pair.

----------


## blue33

I don't mind there's algae, pond snails etc... Hahaha... I can deal with them.  :Kiss:

----------


## David

I sure you can Blue33...I am just wondering how are you going to boil the wood or leave it to dry out for 2 months...it's quite large.

----------


## felix_fx2

> Hey Felix...I don't normally sell stuff away especially wood, plants and fishes.
> 
> Having said that, I do not give away things that I feel is going to be detrimental to someone else's tank.
> 
> I did consider giving them away but considering that certain algae may look dead but are not. There is also pond snails eggs to consider too.


i never said i want la but when you guve stuff 90% of time no one will reject LOL, snails just reminds me of shadow. he dislikes snails keke..

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## David

Felix...nothing wrong if you want it...you are my friend and that is good enough for me... :Wink:

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## David

and yes I cannot take seeing 2 kinds of snail...pond and ramhorns... :Smile:

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## illumnae

Great journal! I also recently restarted planted tank after many years out of the planted hobby. Interesting relearning everything all over again.

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## David

Welcome back from retirement!!!...unlearn what I have learnt to relearn is difficult .... :Wink:

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## blue33

There's never ending in learning. I learn to move on... another hobbies etc... perhaps. Lol

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## David

You are not allowed to move on....unless marine.... :Wink:

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## bennyc

> Felix...nothing wrong if you want it...you are my friend and that is good enough for me...


David, am i your friend too? Haha.

Wish to go into marine... but too complicated and heavy investment. the fish are just so beautiful.

----------


## David

Yes you are too that is why when I have stuff to give away, it goes in the circle of friendship....you want Aspitos? No reaction from Felix..yet

----------


## David

No...not really expensive to go marine these days. In the past yes, not anymore. You are talking about reef right?

----------


## bennyc

> No...not really expensive to go marine these days. In the past yes, not anymore. You are talking about reef right?


Yes, i find the setup and maintenance expensive. There are so many things that could go wrong. If you have reef or corals, you have to be selective of fish too. Very complicated.

----------


## David

Start with simple coral and fishes then... :Wink:

----------


## David

> Sad... Sob...
> 
> I was camping in marketplace for an hour or so.. Hahaha!


Oh Gosh....it was you who posted this and not Felix.....so sorry mistaken identity...that is the problem with using TapaTalk.....

The next time don't camp....just send me a PM and I will receive it. I could have still retrieve the wood......if that is what you wanted.

----------


## thebaldingaquarist

> Oh Gosh....it was you who posted this and not Felix.....so sorry mistaken identity...that is the problem with using TapaTalk.....
> 
> The next time don't camp....just send me a PM and I will receive it. I could have still retrieve the wood......if that is what you wanted.


No la. Joking joking. I have started to collect rocks instead! I love rock hard scapes. Cannot seem to get past my CFO though.

----------


## David

cannot seem to get past CFO?.....for me there is no discussion....Buy First Talk Later has always been my policy.... :Laughing:  After all these years, she gave up.... :Wink:

----------


## thebaldingaquarist

> cannot seem to get past CFO?.....for me there is no discussion....Buy First Talk Later has always been my policy.... After all these years, she gave up....


I am in a similar situation. Except for me, its Buy First, Don't Need To Talk For Weeks.

Which, in hindsight.. might not be a bad thing.....

Anyways, your rescape, anything else going into it?

----------


## bennyc

Poison your CFO with "fish poison". Now my parents are crazy fish addicts (They always go to LFS themselves without me) and my wife enjoys looking at the fish tank but not crazy with it. My friend taught me something, if your CFO makes noise, ask her, "You want me to play with fishes or woman?"

*Fine prints... all outcome are not to be blame on me , do it at your own risk.

----------


## thebaldingaquarist

> Poison your CFO with "fish poison". Now my parents are crazy fish addicts (They always go to LFS themselves without me) and my wife enjoys looking at the fish tank but not crazy with it. My friend taught me something, if your CFO makes noise, ask her, "You want me to play with fishes or woman?"
> 
> *Fine prints... all outcome are not to be blame on me , do it at your own risk.


Tried the fish poison thing. It does work on my mom. But not my wife. Now my mom's place have 3 tanks. My own place, 1. 

Play with woman or fish? she knows i won't do that.. too stingy. I would rather spend thousands on my family and my hobby then to spend on women i don't know.

----------


## felix_fx2

> There's never ending in learning. I learn to move on... another hobbies etc... perhaps. Lol


Keep hamster in your old fish tank. new thing to learn  :Laughing: 

@david, we are all friendes. you are welcome to come take HC from my mini farm  :Smile:

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## illumnae

Haha, speaking of Marine and CFO, I've ventured into Marine before and decided Freshwater is still the one for me...however, my CFO has taken over the Marine tank and it is now officially her tank. She's doing 100% of the work (including mixing salt and changing water!) and enjoying the Marine hobby  :Smile:  Given how advanced the freshwater hobby has become, even freshwater can be as costly as marine. It all depends on how you want to spend.

----------


## blue33

Hamster would end up everyday shaking by my son. Lol




> Keep hamster in your old fish tank. new thing to learn 
> 
> @david, we are all friendes. you are welcome to come take HC from my mini farm

----------


## bennyc

illumnae bro,

i envy you.

----------


## David

:Laughing:  !!!! looks like we are going abit off topic here.... :Laughing: ...but here goes....

@Erctheanda...I am not too sure at the moment because I am more familiar with Biotope to dutch style type of tanks....now its this rock scape and Zen style AKA Amano kind of thing that is unchartered waters to me....on top of that I am skewed towards rooted plants more than stemmed plants....so I am neck deep in unfamiliar waters.... :Smile: 

@bennyc...you are one of the more fortunate ones....at least my wife enjoy looking at the tanks....for now... :Smile: 

@Erctheanda...again....my wife when one step further....its call 'Trade Embargo' for months....it would have been effective years back to 'force' me back to ghe 'negotiation table'.....but taking the age I am now...not so effective.....  :Laughing: !!!!

@felix....thanks...don't worry I am very forward and direct when it comes to asking for plants I cannot get.... :Laughing:  !!!! I have been hearing that HC is best done on DSM? so I think I will stick with Glosso....

@illumnae...You are the most fortunate of the lot of us....she actually takes care of a marine tank 100% FANTASTIC!!!! :Laughing:  !!!!

I wonder if women who are planters face the same problem with their husbands???  :Wink:  Ladies reading this care to share..... :Laughing:

----------


## thebaldingaquarist

> Haha, speaking of Marine and CFO, I've ventured into Marine before and decided Freshwater is still the one for me...however, my CFO has taken over the Marine tank and it is now officially her tank. She's doing 100% of the work (including mixing salt and changing water!) and enjoying the Marine hobby  Given how advanced the freshwater hobby has become, even freshwater can be as costly as marine. It all depends on how you want to spend.


RESPECT.

image copyrights not mine.

----------


## barmby

Please stay within the topic. : )

----------


## David

So no comments on my new tank look?

----------


## illumnae

Just my view, I prefer your previous scape. Current scape the rocks are too low and are likely to get blocked from view by the hairgrass. Even when hg is trimmed, being so low lying the scape lacks boldness. This also makes the stem plants at the back look 'flat'. Overall I think you need larger/taller rocks to work with or add in wood again


PS. HC grows well without DSM too

----------


## barmby

Lighting hour can be reduced to 4 hours a day until tank is 6 months old. I always remember what jacian taught us.

----------


## David

Thanks for the feedback and I agree with you that the rocks are too low.

Did consider buy larger and/or taller rocks. Did not get on with it because I am afraid I cannot secure it well and should it decides to go sideways, I am totally screwed.

To be honest, this is the first time growing hair grass. I don't really know how tall it's going to get.

They are supposedly mini hair grass. I got them submersed from Teo Aquatic and they do look short. Not more than 1.5 to 2in or so? However, this can all change as most plants react differently to different conditions.

As mentioned before, unchartered waters for me with stemmed plants. I have to learn how to grow and prune them as most of those scapers' tank I see derive the thickness and shape through pruning and not left to the plants to decide how it should grow.

As for the rocks, I am pretty sure they are going to be covered soon with different moss and definitely ferns. Going to try the super glue technique and probable make a mess of it till I gain some form of experience. So this is the second reason why I did not invest into nicer looking rocks.

----------


## David

Wow...have not heard the name Jacian for a very long time.

4 hours seems short?

Just for the benefit of information about the history of Jacian, he is one of the founding members of AQ. The name Aquatic Quotient was Jacian's idea.

----------


## barmby

Just google "jacian ho aga"

I am still trying to achieve what he did 12 years ago. This man oozes class. Ah Gan said that he's abit special!

----------


## David

He is a born natural in both plant keeping and scaping an extremist who loves breaking traditional thinking. Missed him as a fellow hobbist and as a friend.

----------


## vinz

Jacian briefly reappeared about 2 years ago... then disappeared again in a few months. I was told the name of AQ was his wife's idea.

<Posted via Tapatalk on Samsung Note 10.1>

----------


## thebaldingaquarist

Some comments about the new scape...
1. the layout is quite flat, not sure what the focal point is. Was hoping that you will be going into some sort of hardscape?
2. the stones are too short, the HG ( if i am not wrong) will cover it after some time?

----------


## blue33

The idea is to go back to basic again, hardscape is not the main focus anymore.  :Evil:

----------


## bennyc

Very sad to say but i like the old look better. Shadow did teach the one third rule or something about the focus. Perhaps you might want to consider for your next scape. play around 1st and experiment, when you decide to use the "new style" then you can start sourcing quality stuff.

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## vinz

I was just pondering on scapes today and realised we "old farts" keep our substrate too flat. We need to create mounds, etc. And use wood and rocks to keep the substrate from flattening.

<Sent via Tapatalk on Galaxy Nexus>

----------


## David

Hi Erctheanda, you are not wrong that the layout is flat and at the current moment there is no focal point. Like what Bennyc has pointed out, this tank is experimental trying my hand to gain some experience in the new world order of modern day scaping.

With alot of advice and guidance from Blue33, it enlighten me to the principles of scaping using wood and rock arrangement. I realize I have to unlearn what was learnt in the past to learn what is new. If I do not attempt it and fail a couple of times I will forever dwell in theories that cannot be put to practical application. Going back to basics is very well put.

Vinz nailed it. In the pass biotopes and Dutch tanks was at its highest point and the today's scaping was in its infancy stage. Rock scape was almost non-existence.

For this tank, I try my hand in rock arrangement. To be frank I don't even know how large a rock I need. Too small it loses focus. Too large and it over powers everything else. I did try to do some terrain but it seems that my stones were too small to hold.

So it's a learning curve.ci guess

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## David

Please keep the comments coming on things I did not see and pay attention to. It is through positive critics that I can learn and improve... :Wink:

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## bennyc

i don't think dutch style is out of style. It needs some kind of reform. Look at plantbrain aka Tom Barr's dutch inspired tank

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...r-quot-120-Gal

I will KILL to have that.

----------


## AQMS

> i don't think dutch style is out of style. It needs some kind of reform. Look at plantbrain aka Tom Barr's dutch inspired tank
> 
> http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...r-quot-120-Gal
> 
> I will KILL to have that.


It is down to individual preference to which style they prefer.
Personally i like the Ducth style of aquascaping...

----------


## limz_777

> Please keep the comments coming on things I did not see and pay attention to. It is through positive critics that I can learn and improve...



your first layout was nice , just that the choice of plants was too big , should retain the wood

----------


## felix_fx2

> Please keep the comments coming on things I did not see and pay attention to. It is through positive critics that I can learn and improve...


1: bigger bigger stones if not it will be burried by flora soon. (you can get some from KL?)
2: higher substrate (this is very very easy just buy )

When i have time in office i always do this with google picture search. See more scapes that way and learn/mimic with smaller tanks that i have.

IAPLC
https://www.google.com/search?q=IAPL...w=1440&bih=775

Aquascape
https://www.google.com/search?q=IAPL...scape&tbm=isch

P.S: did you keep the wood from original scape? woods can do magic with the help of a hacksaw and some hot glue.

----------


## eddy planer

David, 
why not try vivarium or paludarium? Like i did it and I'd switched from fresh planted tank to vivarium years ago. I think is more challenging to grow both land and aquatic flora at the same time..at the same time no more headache.. the dread algae or green water!

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## David

Hello Hello....thanks for more inputs....I did not keep the wood based on three reasons. The base section was just too big on my 50cm breath, after placing the wood I have only 4cm front and back to play which I feel is not enough. Next is the branches. they where too few and they are long and thick, spanning across the tank. Lastly, too much dead BBA and I am sure a lot of snail eggs are laid on it.

In the past, I have already done Biotopes and Dutch Tank. Very familiar with this kind of set up. The first setup that everyone saw was basically going back to biotope...more or less...familiar territory you might say. Unfortunately due to my work that requires me to be travelling, it got hit by two green water and the last one was really bad due to overfeeding by my kiddo and the fish to water ratio just could not cope with the bio-load. It was so thick that you could hardly see your own finger. With it came all other algae you can think of.

I gave up the Altum Angels but it was too late. I managed to knock off most of the algae but the growth of the plants have already been affected. It time to move off from what I already know (as I know how to do them) and try something new.

To my understanding, A traditional Dutch Tank is basically a play of color and leaf contrast. There is always a background backer at the back of the tank, for example cock board, and very to no foreground lawn with at least 15 to 20+ different kind of plants...growing all the way to the top of the waterline and sometimes beyond... Here are some examples...





Then you have the traditional Zen (if I may say so) aka Amano kind of tanks that offers clear space at the front, middle and top, usually using fine and/or narrow leafed plants. Then you have the hybrid. A marriage of the two or even three traditions....





The inspiration that really caught my eye was this tank....



Its a very simple tank. only 4 to perhaps 5 kinds of plants...more towards the Zen tradition. clear open space in the substrate level, open top ...very little wood and no stones. Some how looking at it makes me feel at peace.

I didn't want to spend anymore time hunting for single roots and since I have small and medium sized pieces of stone, I replace the roots for rocks and it is also to try my hand in rock arrangement. With this simple experiment I realize that large rocks if needed for the future should be high enough to reach half or even 3/5 to the water line. It should not also occupy too much planting space by being to large at the base point ...its best to use soil and not aquatic base fertilizer to secure these rocks as it will sink or topple over (just happened to me that is why everything looks low).

I know some of the rocks will be covered by the Hair Grass, I also like to take the opportunity to learn gluing ferns on rocks to create little flow breaks in the foreground. Learning how to prune and shape stemmed plants is rather crucial as well.

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## David

@eddy planer....my uncle was tell me the same exact thing...hahahhaa...He runs a nature scaping nursery along Lornie Road just behind Far East Flora. I have seen his tank and it is a different art form all together. My current tank may not be suitable. Perhaps once I nailed this concept down, I may move on to either Marine or as what you say vivarium or paludarium.

I love my uncle's tank....pretty much like a mangrove brackish water biotope with plants, crab, crayfish...I thought I saw hermit-crabs and a bunch of Archer Fishes.

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## eddy planer

David, wows that's sound so interesting!!! mind ask you do take some pictures of your uncle tank PLEASE! I love to see more and more such tank like that in vivarium section...Hmmm put this way,if you don't mind this coming AQ outing .shall we visit and view your uncle tank? 

BTW,I must say this Marine isn't suitable for you..you're kinda of liao lan(old man) often out of town for days..if the tank seawater level drop 5% or more, and you will see dead flora and fauna when you get back home!

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## David

Hahahaa...I think you missed out the G in your Hokkien and it became vulgar?

My uncle shop is called Nature Scape behind Far East Flora. Go and see it anytime you like. It still there. I not sure if we have enough time to go and I am also wanting to avoid any misunderstanding of solicitation.

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## David

Marine is only possible in my Malaysian home. Plus it's cheaper running cost as well... :Wink:

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## Ingen

I like your inspiration tank. What's the background plant?

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## David

Nice right Ingen...simple yet it looking at it make me feel peaceful.

Rotala Indica it should be...it's also arguable that is Rotala roundifolia...

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## limz_777

> Nice right Ingen...simple yet it looking at it make me feel peaceful.
> 
> Rotala Indica it should be...it's also arguable that is Rotala roundifolia...



happen to see this tank on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2vLJ_vCspk

not sure why video not displaying , can click link

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## David

It is from YouTube. While going through a ton of links from Blu33, I stumbled onto this.

Looking at it I like it alot :Wink:

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## Ingen

Yes, very peaceful...

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## Wildbear

David, very informative and helpful thread :Smile:

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## David

> David, very informative and helpful thread


Wildbear, hope it helps....do remember that there will always be variations from tank to tank.

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## Wildbear

> Wildbear, hope it helps....do remember that there will always be variations from tank to tank.


picking up things bit by bit. surprisingly 
for an impatient guy... :Laughing:

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## David

Its been awhile since I updated my journey and this is now how my tank looks like.




The Rotala Indica is growing fine and growing like wild fire. Just last week, I prune 3 to 4 inch at the top and well....its back up at the waterline again. The plan was originally to keep the top clear leaving a sense of space. On the advice on Bennyc (I think... :Smile: ) I abandon the idea of using glass inlet and lily pipes know how careless I can be and water circulation with a 60cm depth tank may pose and issue. One of the best piece of equipment I got was the Ehiem Surf Skim 350.



With an independent skimmer, I can opt for the better inlet and outlet pipings from Ehiem. The wonderful thing about the Ehiem rain bar is that it is broken into 3 sections. This means that the flow direction can be independently set and my tank water circulation has improved tremendously and a wave maker can be omitted.



No doubt the new pipes are much better looking, The Rotala Indica is now used as camouflage for the pipings and skimmer. The only issue is the dark void at the base. There are 3 fairly large rocks and is now covered which is meant for ferns to be planted later. Lack of time, I have moved the rocks forward and I must be getting on with acquiring Java Ferns.



My Blyxa Japonicas are doing okay as the center break between the two groups of stemmed plants behind.



I have also replaced my Roundifolia Red with my all time favourite Luwegia SP. This was tough initially as they were not good specimens to start off with the first place. Pumped iron tabs into the substrate and now they are fine.



The only plant that is taking its own sweet time to grow is the Dwarf Hair Grass. its well into six weeks since...they are spreading...just that its really slow.

I have decided to cut the light intensity down to 70% to slow down rate of growth for the Indica as well as the Luwegia.

Any opinions on using Narrow leafed Fern on rocks for the dark void at the base of the Rotala Indica? Or would some kind of moss be a better option?

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## milk_vanilla

Good bushy rotala, thanks to the light!


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## bennyc

David, I am sorry I made you give up on lily pipes. They are beautiful but the maintence and glass is so easy to break. I have a broken inlet and outlet to prove. I am thinking on going on to acrylic DIY lily pipes.

By the way, are your left lights stronger than your right? (looks like it in the picture) How about depth penetration? My colleagues dwarf HG grew like wild fire after they took root in like 3 weeks. My guess is, tuning down the intensity of the lights affect the penetration.

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## erwinx

Hi David, when you trim your stem plants, do you cut off the tops and throw away the tops or do you cut the top, replant it, and throw away the bottom?

I am trying to learn about plant species and when I googled Ludwigia SP I got the Tropica page but the plant looks quite different from your photo? http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/pla....aspx?pid=035B

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## David

@Milk...thanks...now its just constant trimming just to keep it in shape. actually there is not that many stalks....I trimmed it in a 45 degree slope from top left to bottom right ....so it looks like a lot. From the front I ...well sort of trimmed it in a bowl shape fashion.



Moved the rocks forward and now I have to hunt down narrow leafed fern to glue it to the rock and to create cover for the dark void.... :Grin: 

@BennyC...no apology needed. You shared your experience and highlighted me to problems that I do not see. Its sound advice. I just cut lights just last night. As it why its spreading so slowly, I strongly believe its the substrate. I think they do better in soil. Just need to have patients...I guess. Nope lights are equal in percentage currently at 70% and the Hair Grass is showing photosynthesis bubbling. Perhaps next week I will try 68% as I need to slow down the growth rate of the two stemmed plants.

@Erwinx...It depends on what you like to achieve. In the case of the Rotala Indica, I wanted it bushy. When I first planted them, it was spaced out leaf tip to leaf tip spacing and alternating them row for row. when they got up to about 6cm above the rock line, I cut off the top. Each tip will then split into 2 or even 3 new tips that continue to grow. At this point of the first cutting, it is best that you can sort of picture in your mind how you would like them to grow. From the front...always go for a inverted bowl shape cut. back to front I tend to go for a tall back short front. As for the tips, use some of them to cover blank spaces...donate them or giveaway.

As for the Ludwigia, Magpie gave me the right name but I keep forgetting the name...Its Ludwigia (something) SP. few years back the Taiwanese are CRAZY about this plant. For this plant I do what I call the roll forward. Which means I will uproot the front row only and replant the ones I cut from the back. If you have a good hardscape stuff in the front, then just cut off the top and leave the bottom. Reason is that the bottom are very well rooted and they recover very fast.

As with all stemmed plants, leaf tip to leaf tip is what I would always recommend as with each cutting, you will get at least two new tips and over time, it can get really crowded.

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## magpie

Hi David, your Ludwigia sp looks more like Ludwigia Cuba. The plant that is popular in Taiwan years back I don't know whether is it still popular now is 红太阳。

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## David

@magpie...I don't think its the Cuba because of the leaf shape.

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## magpie

Ok. Nice plant anyway.

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## Wildbear

love the eheim skimmer!

Nice tank!

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## David

Hi Everyone...

Just an update what's going on with my tank. Finally the Dwarf Hair Grass is getting some traction and spreading. With it, came an old friend of which I thought was gone for good.....Blue Green Algae!!!

Of all the algae in the world....this is my Achill's Heel!!! My Nemisis....

Fault was mine in the first place because when I replanted my tank, I should have taken out my substrate and either bleach it or PP bombed. Instead I used new substrate and buried the old about an inch thick thinking that the growth pattern for Dwarf Hair Grass is similar to Echinodorus Tennellus. I was dead wrong.

The Echinodorus Tennellus has surface runners and root downwards, I would have been spared. The Dwarf Hair Grass however grows from within the substrate and comes upwards, it pushed the dormant BGA up with it as well.

I throw everything I know at it....increase CO2, cut CO2, stop CO2 injection and increase O2, cut lighting intensity, cut lighting duration, cut N, cut P....manual siphon and it *KEEPS COMING!!!!*

So now I have reached the end of options and going to NUKE the tank next week with Antibotic. The only question I have is this...Has anyone used this antibiotic to nuke BGA?



I figured that all Antibotic is plant safe and should be either a 3 or 5day course? The LFS I bought it from mentioned that two days is enough? After completing the course is it okay to leave it there and not use carbon to soak it up. I do not want to end up with a BGA strain that has resistance to Antibotic.

Anyone with experience or knowledge care to point me to the direction before Nuking my tank? Thanks. Anyway, this is currently how my tank looks like and perhaps a memory of it if the nuke is not successful and may have to restart the tank again.... :Grin:

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## diazman

That is some thick growth boss!. Those are pristella tetra right?

P.S: Got some plant to off load? *hints* :Grin:

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## blue33

Solve your circulation flow and your BGA will be gone in no time! If you have read "Chocolatelala" thread you'll get the answer.  :Wink:

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## aquarius

From my understanding about using antibiotics, you need to dose it everyday for around 5days. Not sure what the instructions on the medication says but just follow according to the instructions. Don't listen too much to what LFS people says cos a lot of times they are just as ignorant. If for example you're dosing for 5days, on the 6th day change 50% water and use carbon the remove the remaining traced amount of antibiotics in the tank water.

I can understand your frustrations but if possible, avoid using antibiotics cos not using it properly can have repercussions later on. For me, I did a 3day blackout (use newspaper to cover the whole tank including the top) and change 50% water on the 4th day, problem solved. But like what blue33 says, solve the circulation issues but do it after the blackout and water change. Good luck!  :Wink:

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## cherabin

A 3 days black-out coupled with the cleaning of the canister filter completely eradicated the BGA issue in my tank. You may want to give it a shot. Plants will suffer just a little and will bounce back nicely once the lights are back on for me.

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## bennyc

How about throwing a substanstial amount of egeria densa, The plant secretes antibiotic substances which can help prevent blue-green algae. Never done it personally though, wonders if it helps.

If it does, it beats chemical additive.

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## David

> That is some thick growth boss!. Those are pristella tetra right?
> 
> P.S: Got some plant to off load? *hints* :Grin:


Those are false Rosy Tetras and Cardinals.... :Grin: 

I got tons of plants to giveaway but not at the moment as I don't think its a good idea when there is BGA in the tank.

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## David

> Solve your circulation flow and your BGA will be gone in no time! If you have read "Chocolatelala" thread you'll get the answer.


Looks like I have to re-position the wave maker and see how it works out?

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## David

> How about throwing a substanstial amount of egeria densa, The plant secretes antibiotic substances which can help prevent blue-green algae. Never done it personally though, wonders if it helps.
> 
> If it does, it beats chemical additive.


Okay....perhaps will go hunt for the plant. Is it common and is this the one?


http://www.aquascapingworld.com/plan...php?item_id=97

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## diazman

> Okay....perhaps will go hunt for the plant. Is it common and is this the one?
> 
> 
> http://www.aquascapingworld.com/plan...php?item_id=97


I believe its this plant boss. those $1 per pot plant



And... i manage to find this '04 post on the topic about the plant and BGA

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ue-green-algae

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## bennyc

It is the plant. And fairly common. But from the thread diaman added, tom barr does not think so.

Tom barr seems to be a corporation hater. Hahaha.

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## David

> From my understanding about using antibiotics, you need to dose it everyday for around 5days. Not sure what the instructions on the medication says but just follow according to the instructions. Don't listen too much to what LFS people says cos a lot of times they are just as ignorant. If for example you're dosing for 5days, on the 6th day change 50% water and use carbon the remove the remaining traced amount of antibiotics in the tank water.
> 
> I can understand your frustrations but if possible, avoid using antibiotics cos not using it properly can have repercussions later on. For me, I did a 3day blackout (use newspaper to cover the whole tank including the top) and change 50% water on the 4th day, problem solved. But like what blue33 says, solve the circulation issues but do it after the blackout and water change. Good luck!


Okay thanks...that is what I thought too. The API antibiotic instructions are a little ambiguous...its also recommending 2 dose (48 hours), end of each dose change 25% of water up to 4 dose....when it says up to 4 dose changes the whole scenario.

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## David

> A 3 days black-out coupled with the cleaning of the canister filter completely eradicated the BGA issue in my tank. You may want to give it a shot. Plants will suffer just a little and will bounce back nicely once the lights are back on for me.


Did a 4 day black out.....literially used an old blanket to cover the whole tank up.....clean both filters and BOOM!!! came back after 2 weeks.... :Grin:

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## David

@diazman and bennyc....at this point, I am prepared to reinstall my wave maker and try getting this plant.....what can be worse than NUKING the tank.... :Grin:

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## diazman

> @diazman and bennyc....at this point, I am prepared to reinstall my wave maker and try getting this plant.....what can be worse than NUKING the tank....


Then your tank will be like my uncle's "wah, my plant inside many many. cannot see fish swim" haha  :Laughing:

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## David

That is the whole point...no? It's exciting what fish you can find in the jungle of plants...HAHAHAHAA!!!!!

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## milk_vanilla

If they are still come back, means you didn't cure/ hit the root cause


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## diazman

> That is the whole point...no? It's exciting what fish you can find in the jungle of plants...HAHAHAHAA!!!!!






Plant until like this, then fish hunting becomes 'shiok'  :Laughing:   :Grin:

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## erwinx

just out of curiosity, can you inject excel or hydrogen peroxide deep into the substrate to treat algae? (probably a bad idea, but I'm still learning....)

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## milk_vanilla

Yes you could, when my tank was considered young/new, i killed appearing bga on certain spot with peroxide.

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## David

Turned off the substrate heater after the advice of Blue33. The heater may be just providing the nutrients and temperature the BGA needs.

Let's see after this week what happens....if this fails....looks like I have to launch my Nukes... :Very Happy:

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## Ingen

This is off topic to your tank, were you asking about Kuhli loach eating snails previously? I witness it yesterday and they do eat tiny snails in the tank... They have it "sucked" in the mouth and trashed them left, right, up, down to pull the snails out of the shell... Thought to give you an update that you were right haha.

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## David

Yup ..Ingen...I did asked about it. Thanks for the confirmation...but which Kuhli Loach?...hahahaa

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## Ingen

You mean there are different type of Kuhli Loach? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuhli_loach this is the one I'm referring to.

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## David

3 if I am not wrong of which 2 are from Malaysia. One is larger with more dark coloration while the other is slimmer and more light tan camouflage...

My take is the second one.

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