# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Cichlids >  New to angel keeping-manacapuru angels

## Jucino

Hi bros, would like to share a couple of pics of my recent purchase of manacapuru angels . I believe they are F1 CB but nonetheless, didn't failed to make my heart itch when i saw them at the fish shop, thus decided to buy two pcs of juv for a start. They are kept in the breeder box now so that i can monitor their feeding better before releasing them into the main tank. Please enjoy the pics below and hopefully can receive some tips from the sifus here for keeping these beauties.  :Very Happy: 



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## hermes73

Hi guys,

My first time posting  :Very Happy: 

Thought I'd share some pics of my Manacapuru angels. These were taken using my iPhone 'cause I don't have a proper camera, so please bear with the picture quality.



These Manacapurus are actually batches #2 (sub-adults now) and #3 (juveniles). I unfortunately lost all of batch #1, together with almost all my Leopold angelfish, due to a parasitic nematode infestation. A pity because batch #1 had touches of purple to the fins, which I don't see in these batches. However, these have more blue spotting in the dorsal and caudal fins.



I've noticed that as they mature, their bodies become more round and disc-like, and the finnage less pronounced. Juveniles (shown below) have very high straight fins, like the ones Jucino has.

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## andytan

Hi hermes73, I just started keeping 4 mnacapuru angels bought from C328 some 2months ago. They looked exactly like yours and have voracious appetite. They are locally bred as they are very easy to keep. I feed them fozen blood worms and tetra bits and change 20% water once a week in a 2ft tank. No major problems so far. maybe I am lucky to have healthy ones. Thinking of buying a bigger tank for them as they grew so fast.

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## andytan

If I am successful with these 4 manacapurus and they survive till next altum season I might venture into trying to keep altums. Altums are somehow more majestic looking than manacapurus in my humble opinion. Hoping that some local breeder can breed and sell them locally.

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## hermes73

Hi Andy,

Manacapurus aren't very much more difficult than regular wild Scalare, IMHO. Those that make it past first few days generally do well, unlike Altums where losses continue into ~6th week or so. The infestation that killed Batch #1 was not a run-of-the-mill occurrence but pretty much catastrophic: within three weeks, one wild Scalare, the Manacapurus and five Leopold angels, together with several adult Dicrossus filamentous, Apistogramma iniridae, Nematobrycon palmeri and cardinal tetras perished abruptly - with no visible external signs of disease. A fish would be fine one day and die 24-36 hours later. It took two weeks before I saw a Leopold excreting what seemed to be a long translucent string of feces (had already been treating for hexamita with no success and I was puzzled also that the Heckel discus were totally unaffected) and then very slowly the "feces" began to sway *against* the current and I realized it was moving.

I treated with Praziquantel but only one Leopold and Scalare survived. To this day I haven't been able to identify the parasite - not anchor worms, not capillaria.

Anyway best of luck with the Manacapurus: I've tried Altums twice (and a bit haphazardly) without success. But now with the Heckels, the Manacapurus and the Biodotoma cupidos, plus a colony of zebra plecos, AND Geophagus sp. 'Tapajos orange head' (impulse buy: will probably decide to give them up at some point), not sure if I have room or time for Altums. 

Personally I find Leopolds more interesting and attractive than Manacapurus. Photos online don't do them justice and they're very underrated as dumpy relatives of their Scalare and Altum cousins. Some photos of the survivor, which I believe is a male. Females reportedly have slightly different hue to the gill plates, more greenish, but difficult to tell unless you have male and female side by side to compare. (P.S. I've noticed my photos don't appear when I access using Chrome, not sure why.)

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Full body shot: the bugger is damn difficult to shoot. He's the dominant angelfish - despite being 2/3 the size of a Scalare, he was the only angel the bitch queen Scalare (now deceased) would give way to. But he scrams the moment he sees a camera.

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You can see the purplish-red colour highlights in his fins in this one - I adjusted colour settings slightly to correct for the tannins in the water, so this is more true to actual colour.

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A little out of focus, but the bluish gill plates really stand out here. Don't expect to see those clearly in the shop... like Altums, these are almost entirely wild caught and look very pale and shaken when they arrive.

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## andytan

Wow you have really beautiful leopolds. Your heckels are also beautiful as well. I thought its not good to keep angels with discus together as the angels can pass one disease(can't remember the name) to the discus but the angels are immune to it. How big are these fishes as I can't judge from pictures?

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## sfk7

Hi hermes73, those are really nice pictures of your angels and heckels. With the biotodoma cupido, it looks like a really nice biotope there. 

Should take the chance to start a new thread to showcase and share what you have

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## hermes73

Hi,

Not mixing angels and discus is IMHO a myth. Sure, angels may introduce disease but that's going to be true of any wild caught fish, including other discus. And the Heckels pretty much hold their own against the angels: I don't find them as shy feeders as people make them out to be. 

Thanks, sfk7: it's not entirely a correct biotope - I have Bolbitis heudelotii, Riccia fluitans and Taxiphyllum in there and the Echinodorus is a cultivar (Red Rubin) - reason being I wanted to make it seem like a flooded forest and there aren't many Amazonian "epiphytes". I used to have Tonina and Syngonanthus but I realized my Heckels dislike having plants, especially stem plants, growing on the substrate and were systematically uprooting them. I'll start a thread when I get some better pictures taken  :Smile:

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## stormhawk

Where the "drifting poop" thing is concerned, you might have fish that came in with Camallanus worms or something similar. Wild fish are prone to having these parasites until treated with proper medications and/or specific foods.

I personally like P. leopoldi out of all the angels. They are beautiful fishes when mature and settled in. The ones in the show tank at Qian Hu, when I last saw them, were in splendid condition.

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## FT David

Nice Manacapuru juvies you have there. I believed you are putting them in those stick in tank betta barrack right? If you really want to isolate them from the main tank, I suggest that you buy a Boyu breeder net instead. It had better water flow through the net. At the same time, should they dash around, they will not knock hard onto the hard surface.

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## hermes73

> Where the "drifting poop" thing is concerned, you might have fish that came in with Camallanus worms or something similar. Wild fish are prone to having these parasites until treated with proper medications and/or specific foods.
> 
> I personally like P. leopoldi out of all the angels. They are beautiful fishes when mature and settled in. The ones in the show tank at Qian Hu, when I last saw them, were in splendid condition.


I ruled out Camallanus: wasn't red (white and translucent in fact) and far too long. And I don't think it was something that arrived with the P. leopoldi, as I've had them for close to a year before the crash happened. What happened was that a friend of mine bought live tubifex worms as a "treat" for the fish while I was away and I don't think he cleaned them properly... within three weeks, the leopoldi were dead.

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## illumnae

I think both Manacapuru scalares and Pt leopoldis both have their own beauty. I currently keep a group of 5 leopoldis that I've grown out since early this year and they're beautiful. However, I also wouldn't be averse to a group of nice red Manacapurus like the ones in your picture hermes  :Smile:

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## andytan

Hi, can some bros here tell me what's wrong with my manacapuru angels....they stopped feeding about 3 to 4 days ago till today. They were growing nicely since I bought them 3.5 months ago and feeding very well and growing very fast then suddenly this happens. Did 50% water change yesterday and started them on interpret anti internal bateria at the same time. They look ok to me ...no fin rot, no color change, swimming normally except they don't want to eat. Been feeding them tetra bits and frozen blood worms since day 1. Can somebody tell me what's wrong with them and how to cure them. Thank you very much in anticipation.

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## hermes73

hmm did you introduce any other livestock or feed them any live food? Any abnormal poop? Is it just disinterest or eating and spitting out again?

This is one of those things where it's difficult to say for sure. Try crushing the dry food up into finer bits: could be a tract infection that makes it uncomfortable to eat (especially if spitting food out). Be careful of antibacterial medication if you're using biological filtration. What's your pH btw? Don't know if your angels are tank bred or wild caught but wild caught specimens come from low pH environments (tested the pH of the water my angels came in and it was ~4.5!) where bacteria find it harder to survive. Such fish may be more susceptible to bacteria infections as they didn't need to develop immunity...

If there's weird poop then likely to be internal gut parasites. Heroine cichlids like angels and discus seem especially prone.

Or it might be boredom with same food. Or stress of any sort. What kind/brand of bloodworms do you feed them btw?

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## andytan

Hi Hermes73, Yes they do have abnormal white poop but lately very little as they are not eating. Sometimes they just eat and spit out many times. Eventually I have to siphon out all the food. My angels are tank bred, PH is 5.7, and I have a cannister filter. Tank size is a 2ft x1.5 x1.5 and I only have 2 driftwood tied with nana plant. Thank goodness I don't have gravel or sand or I will have a hard time siphoning out the uneaten food as I don't keep any scavengers. I feed them with frozen Hikari bllood worms. The angels are kept by themselves since day one as I want to grow them as quickly as I can so that I can put them in my 4 footer tank together with 3 kois there when they are about the same size. Looks like they have internal parasites. I have just started them on a 2nd dosage of anti internal bacteria today. They still look ok just a little skinny at the stomache area. Am I giving them the correct medication? If not do tell me what to treat them.

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## hermes73

White poop in itself may not mean anything wrong, but in this case it probably does. Anti-internal bacteria treats stuff like septicemia: think of it as antibiotics you consume, instead of topical antibiotic. It won't do much against unicellular or larger parasites, for which you'd need more specific medication. If it's tapeworms or other parasites in the gut, praziquental may help to clear it. Be prepared to watch and siphon out: praziquental essentially paralyzes the parasite, allowing it to be passed out. It may not kill the parasite itself, which the fish might re-eat (I know, they can be damn stupid). You could try those deworming medications commonly available for discus. If it's capillaria or some other parasite in the tissue of the fish, I'm not sure what to use, as I have not found any of the conventional medications available OTC to be of much help.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

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## andytan

Ok thanks for all the info and help. I have been feeding them very little food and siphoning out the remains daily. Looks like they are nibbling a little now. Hoping for the best....

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## andytan

Just an update on my sick manacapuru angels...just started 3rd treatment of anti internal bacteria medication and changing 50% water.. They have started to nibble on frozen blood worms but spit out the white carcas of the worms...looks like just sucking the red juice from the fbw. One of them has his/her mouth open permanently....looks like not a good sign. The other 3 seems ok still. Any bros can identify this disease?( not eating and open mouth) Its been 13 days since they went on hunger strike. Hoping to save all 4 of them from this disease.

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## andytan

Here's a photo of my sickest manacapura angel with the mouth open.

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## hermes73

:Sad: 

Seems your original instinct to use anti-bacterial medication may have been correct. Looks like possible case of Flexibacter columnaris, the same bacterial infection that kills a lot of Altums during acclimatization. It commonly manifests as "cotton mouth" but can appear as dull grey lesions around and inside the mouth, dull patches on the body and long fins to disintegrate. It's everywhere but I suspect Amazon blackwater fish may be more vulnerable because the low pH of their native waters inhibit bacteria.

Get a broad spectrum antibiotic that treats both gram positive and gram negative bacterial infections - Flexibacter columnaris is of the gram negative class with a tough outer membrane. Furan-2 is one such medication.

It's not an easy disease to cure. And very contagious. Hope your angels get strong again soon.

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## andytan

Another update on my sick mancapuru angels. Finally saw some signs of cotton like on mouth (cotton mouth)of the one with open mouth. Looks like columnaris. Hermis73 you are right. Been treating them with furan2 (3rd dosage today) and I can see that they are much better. Starved them from today and tomorrow then will feed them after last dosage of furan2. They are still very picky on food. Gave them some self bred guppy fries and they chomped them up but still refusing to eat fbw and tetra bits. Hoping that they get better.

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## hermes73

Good to hear they're responding: furan-2 is actually a relatively weak antibiotic, but fish already weakened by starvation and disease may not be able to take something stronger. Make sure you do 50% water changes before adding a new dosage. You need to continue treatment until all the survivors are well, but watch out for stress from medication.

You need to get them to start eating again: I suspect the columnaris has infected their oral tract, which is why they are spitting food out. Must be like having a mouth full of ulcers. I'd be a little cautious of feeding them guppy fry right now, because a fish is most likely to catch disease from another fish, rather than say from a shrimp, and their immune systems have enough to deal with at the moment. If they won't take fbw or pellets, you could try live brine shrimp (after gut-loading the shrimp with spirulina and multivits).

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## andytan

Thanks Hermes. Yes trying to get live brine shrimps but they are quite difficult to find. Any other live foods that are easier to source besides tubiflex?

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## hermes73

C328 has deliveries of adult brine shrimp almost every evening around 6:30 except maybe Monday I think. Yeah a lot of LFS don't stock it because I've been told they need to order minimum ten bags and if they're not sold that evening, the BS are 75% dead by morning. Mrs Toh feeds a lot of her stock nothing but BS, so there's no wastage.

You can keep the BS alive for a few days - There's probably some advice somewhere in this forum.

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## andytan

Thanks a lot Hermes. I usually go to c328 quite often but usually early afternoon that's why can't get any. Will go in the evening instead.

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## PatrickChan

Mine now got white clear poop. Still medicating

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## hermes73

Hi, Patrick:

White poop could be hexamita, intestinal parasites, poor water conditions or just diet. Any other symptoms? Are the fish eating or behaving naturally otherwise.

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## stormhawk

@andytan,

The fish with the open mouth could be choking on something. I have seen angels choke on almost anything, be it a pebble or even a live fish. You can find pictures of angels choking on Otocinclus or other fish via Google.

I do not see any visible infections so it could be what I suspect it is. Have you taken a look inside the mouth. Wait for it to turn to face the front then try to have a quick glance. You might see the problem. Using a weak antibiotic against Columnaris can work but in the long term may not be wise since these bugs will form a resistance to the medication if you fail to eradicate them.

If you cannot get live brine shrimp, culturing a box of grindal worms or an earthworm box will be very useful. Chopped earthworms can be an excellent food for angels. To keep adult BS alive, you need a separate tank, of say 1 ft in size with the proper specific gravity for them. Any marine salt mix will do. I prefer Red Sea Salt mix though. Set the tank up with a simple sponge filter. You can feed them with a variety of foods ranging from green water, yeast mix, some crushed egg yolk pushed through a handkerchief or some other cloth, or with Liquifry Marine.

The adult brine shrimp will remain alive for quite some time if you give them space and food.

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## andytan

Hi all. Just another update on my sick manacapuru angels. 3 have fully recovered even the one with the open mouth but one of them is still very fussy about food and not too enthusiastic about eating. Thinking of taking him out for another dosage of furan 2 or stronger antibiotics. Been slowly getting them back on fbw and fbs and live mosquito larvaes and self bred guppy fries. Trying to get them back on fbw and tetra bits again.

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## hermes73

> Hi all. Just another update on my sick manacapuru angels. 3 have fully recovered even the one with the open mouth but one of them is still very fussy about food and not too enthusiastic about eating.


If it isn't eating, its digestive tract must still be feeling poorly, but good to hear the rest have recovered.

I've moved the Manacapurus, because Illumnae was kind enough to sell me his five Leopold angelfish and some drastic reshuffling of fish had to be done. The Manacapurus are now living with the Biotodoma cichlids, _hemigrammus rhodostomus_ rummy-nosed tetras and one oddball surviving _Hemiodus gracilis_ in what is really my _Hypancistrus zebra_ colony*... The zebras have been a bit annoyed by the Biotodoma, because the Biotodoma are such nervous cowards they keep trying to hide in the zebras' caves. It is quite funny to see a zebra pleco throw a cupid cichlid out....



_This is just one end of the tank ... don't worry, it's actually larger than that...._

The Manacapurus appear completely indifferent to an all-rock setup with a somewhat higher pH of about 6.5, as compared to the driftwood-dominated Negro tank with pH of 5.5. I've watched this German documentary where they showed actual wild footage of Rio Negro "Scalare-Altums" living amidst rocky riverbanks, so I suspect the Manacapurus may live that way too, unlike the Leopolds which have shown much greater preference for the driftwood than rocks.

One of my Manacapurus appears to be a runt  :Huh?:  but the others continue to grow. Here are the two older ones bickering for territory in midwater in the new tank. I think Andy asked a question about whether the red colour increases as they mature ... I'm starting to think yes, because one of the two kiddy juveniles is beginning to develop more red.



_The one on the right has a very Altum profile, pinched nose and all..._


_*This is my "good luck" breeding tank - am hoping the zebra plecos will spawn. In the eighteen months that it's been set up, this tank has had discus, rams, cardinal tetras, checkerboard cichlids, wild scalares and rummy-nosed tetras spawn in it..._

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## dragonmy

bro, can update some closest pic? want to see how they look like at bigger age, as mine my very small just like 20 cents big

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## hermes73

> bro, can update some closest pic? want to see how they look like at bigger age, as mine my very small just like 20 cents big


Sure! Mine are still not fully grown yet though... In terms of size ... I think two or three times the size of a fifty-centre coin?











In general, Manacapurus have red colouration extending from behind the bar that passes through the eye. Eye colour is at best faintly red, and often limited to the back half. The third bar tends to be much thicker and darker in colour.

Some other denizens of their tank :P

Some cute cupid cichlids:


Hemiodus gracilis - I thought it would pine away and die without companions, but it's adopted the rummy nosed tetras...


Checkerboards

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## dragonmy

wah!!! very nice red, I will try to put 5 pcs into the rock tank after CNY and see the different, thanks bro for sharing!!!

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## StanChung

Nice manacupurus. Already have the red patches- mine are still pale. Hopefully not some F1-2 hybrid  :Sad:

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