# Other Aquarium Forums > Equipment and Accessories >  ADA style stand and frameless tank

## tcampbell

Well I decided to get rid of my smaller tank (actually not get rid of, but rather convert it to a turtle tank for my daughter as her turtle is growing fast and will need more room soon).

I went to the local shops about getting a stand and tank I wanted, but the cost was too high and the stick on wood coating just didn't appeal to me. So I made my own.

The pictures of the stand in progress are attached. And I will completely update when I can.







Missing is the door and the paint of course. I will be painting it with the base coat tomorrow and hanging the door after that. The stand is 61cm X 41cm by 84cm high. The tank will be the 61 X 41 x 45cm high.

Have the soil read and waiting (ADA) the filter Eheim 2215 from big tank being moved over and a new Eheim 2217 added to large tank. Co2 5 lbs ready and wood / stones being bought. I will put date pictures when I can. Just doing wood working in a small apartment in Taiwan with a 2 feet wide balcony takes a lot of time and makes a lot of mess.

For this size tank, how much light do you recommend. 4 tubes of 18 watt should be enough or up it to 6 tubes of 18?

Thomas

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## David Moses Heng

just wondering what material did you use for your stand?

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## brianclaw

Looks like MDF to me. 
6 tubes sounds good, and if it's too much in the beginning, you can always turn off some light. That's easier than having to add more lights at a later stage.

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## richietay

Nice worksmanship. 

Have you tested whether it can withstand certain weight? Look forward for the completion.  :Smile:

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## benny

Hi Thomas,

I've upload your pictures into your personal gallery in AQ for you. I've also hotlinked the images directly into your thread. I've also moved the thread to equipment section as it's dealing with furniture rather than aquascaping as your title suggest.

Do keep us updated on this exciting project!

Cheers,

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## tcampbell

Benny - Thanks. I not not even realize I had a personal gallery. Guess I haven't been using the forum to it's full potential.

Brian - you are correct. It is MDF 3/4" = 18mm MDF boards. Easy to find a B&Q or Homebox here. Good weight and strong, easy to work with though creates a great deal of dust when sanding and cutting. 

Richietay - I have tested it with my weight, 76kg and no problems. I am still planning on adding an inside back support brace (T shaped) the height and width of the stand and two side braces all of which aren't usually on the stands my by my LFS, and the wood is no where near as thick. 

I am not sure how much I have to test it with. What would the weight of the tank be. 10mm glass 61cm by 41 cm by 45cm high, with stand height of substrate, drift wood, water and plants.

I have about 250~300 pounds of weighs plates here I can place on it to test for sure and stand on that as well if necessary, though that would be a balancing act.

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## tcampbell

Well the first coat (of two) of a grey colored oil based paint is down. Once that is dried it will be lightly sanded and then repainted. The sanded again and then a coat of spray paint to finish it off. 
Haven't fully decided on the final color yet though. Been looking at the grey as I was painting it and like that, then again, I say a blue grey color of spray paint, similiar to a few ADA stands I have seen and I like that as well. Of course there is the standard black that will go with any room and disapear into the background once the tank is set up.

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## tcampbell

Doors hung, stand finished now just need a final color.


Not sure if I will drill holes in the sides for tubes or not. I left a part opened in the middle back so the tubes and co2 can fit up that way even when it is against a wall. will save extra holes. 


Can always add them later if necessary.


Tank should be 29 gallons or 110 litres, and 110 litres = 110 KG of water, plus substrate, rocks, drift wood and the weight of the tank itself. I have tested it with my wife and I sitting on the stand = 130KG approx with no problems at all.

There is a cross brace along the back top inside of the stand and a down brace along the back straight town to the base of the tank on the inside forming a sort of T for added security. But you can't see that in any of the pictures due to the angle.


How much would a 10mm glass tank 61 by 40 by 45 cm weigh? Always curious. what if it was 8mm glass?

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## benny

Thomas,

Looking good indeed!

10mm glass will be very heavy. For your tank dimension, 8 mm should be more than sufficient for a braceless tank. Did you check with the tank makers?

Cheers,

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## ankank

> For your tank dimension, 8 mm should be more than sufficient


I'll do you one better: Tanks in this dimension are usually made of 5 or 6 mm float glass -- at least for the side walls, the bottom would be a little thicker, I guess.

Calculating the weight of glass is simple: Glass weighs around 3 tons for a cubic meter. Which means 3 kg per square meter per mm thickness.

60x40x45
= 0,24 (for the bottom) + 2*0,18 (for the sides) + 2*0,27 (for front and back)
= 1,14 m² * 10 mm * 3 kg
= 34,2 kg.

So all in all, you'd end up with a weight of 35 kg for the tank.


Edit:  :Smug:  100th post! Yay!

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## tcampbell

My tank maker said that they will do it in 8mm if they use glass rods at the corners for support. If not then they will need to do it in 10mm glass. Does that make sense?
5mm glass is just to weak to hold a braceless tank. With 5mm there would be little place for the silicon to hold it.

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## David Moses Heng

nice stand but please do test it before putting on the tank. I'm building one also for my 2 ft but i'm using 18mm thick marine ply wood for the frame. 

Cheers!!

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## ankank

> My tank maker said that they will do it in 8mm if they use glass rods at the corners for support. If not then they will need to do it in 10mm glass. Does that make sense?


Well, I wonder how they manage to make 100x50x50 tanks in 8mm over here with neither glass rods nor braces. But, heck, I guess your tank maker just plays it really safe. Who am I to argue with that, it's not like I have any technical experience in this regard.




> With 5mm there would be little place for the silicon to hold it.


Actually it has not soo much to do with the silicon. I just asked a LFS owner a few hours ago, also to back me up or to correct me. He said that it's actually the warping due to the water pressure that requires the respective thickness. Accordingly, the thickness increases with the tank's width and height. Up to 40 cm height can be done with 6mm (I was wrong there), 8mm for up to 50 cm, 10mm for up to 60 cm ... and so on. It also increases with increasing width, but 60cm isn't that much for a tank.

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## vratenza

IMHO, it's always better with a little extra headroom. It's good to calculate the amount of water, it's constant pressure acting on the side walls.

But what about non- constants such as variation in temperature ie. colder temperature result in denser water....structural properties of the glass to various environmental temperature.... also, how about the occasional accidental knocks on the glass by visitors or even while doing household chores. Who dare to say that when they do water change or maintenance of their tank, they do not lean against the top of the tank for that little bit of support? how about moving DW or stones around while scaping?

so all these are the little things that can mean a difference between a safe and nag-free hobby from a very wet and miserable hobby....

FYI, my new 2x1x1ft braceless tank is using 12mm float glass.......haha prob overkill..... but to me it is security and at the same time i think it looks more classy and higher grade with thicker glass :Grin:

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## tcampbell

wow that is thick glass!

I would like to have it in 8mm as the glass is less green colored and the weight would be less. But since it is a ADA style stand and the width and lenght of the stand is the exact width and lenght of the tank, it might be better to be be 10mm, that way there is 10mm all around holding it. Just incase earthquakes in Taiwan the higher weight might hold it in place better.  :Smile: 

Not sure about why the 10mm other then they saying that they will guarenttee it will not leak if 10mm but if I want 8mm no braces and no rods they will not guarentee it from leaks and the responsibility is all on me if something goes wrong.

I ahve tested it with my weight and wife on it, what do you do to test yours? pile 300 pounds of bricks on it?

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## valice

But do note that thicker glass means higher contortion when you look at your tank from an angle. For 12mm, even a 10deg offset will have a bad bad contortion.

BTW, 5-plan or GEX tanks are using like 5mm for their 2ft tanks. So 8mm is sufficient. 12mm is too much!!!

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## vratenza

I believe you are talking about 2 separate issues here:
1) cabinet structural strength to hold up the weight of the tank and contents
2) minimal thickness of the glass to withstand the water pressure

For question 1, the answer is pretty simple since one of the bros have already made some calculations on the tank weight for you and you made the estimate on the content weight. Body weight/weight plates testing will do fine. Some structural issues for your consideration: I noticed your tank will just sit ontop of the cabinet ie. not sitting in a recess. For country like Taiwan exposed to earthquakes, may need to consider the tank sliding off in even a minor tremor. Second, in relative to your tank weight, your cabinet seem almost light weight. Thus you may need to think about bringing down the high centre of gravity. Third, I'm no carpenter but I kind of feel that the joints may need a little reinsforcement eg. internal L-braces. But I think you are pretty good with your hands and thus should not be an issue.

For question 2, "greeness" of the thicker glass is not obvious (at least to me) whe filled with water and with adequate and proper lighting. Also, I will tend to take the advice from the tank-maker with regards to the choice of glass in relation to the tank size and structural construction. 
When I got my 6x2x2 feet tank, I was quite sure I wanted to get a 12 mm thick glass without bracing...... was told by the tank-maker that it can be done but will be risky in terms of low treshold for any other forms of un expected pressure. So in the end, I had euro bracing top and bottom with a centre brace piece... now I sleep with a peace of mind every night or when i go on overseas trip knowing that my tank will hold up.
 :Grin:

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## vratenza

> But do note that thicker glass means higher contortion when you look at your tank from an angle. For 12mm, even a 10deg offset will have a bad bad contortion.
> 
> BTW, 5-plan or GEX tanks are using like 5mm for their 2ft tanks. So 8mm is sufficient. 12mm is too much!!!


haha, 12 mm is just me! I am not advocating to go for 12mm, just letting him know the extremes! Anyway, for me, the contortion is minimal unless you put your nose up to the glasss surface. By virtue of light refraction principles, the further you are from the tank, the less distortion. Obviously I am not saying you must stand 5m away to enjoy your tank, which defeats the purpose of a relatively small sized tank but from my experience, my 2x1x1 is just next to me on the other arm of the L shape study cabinet. Thus that viewing distence is about 1/2 an arm's length away with no distortion percievable.
 :Grin:

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## tcampbell

vratenza - your are right. Two different issues entirely. I am not really worried about the stand, as I will explain below, but rather worried about the tank itself before it is built. 8mm glass usually has less distortion and not as green of a color, but one shop says it is ok, the other shop says it isn't. One says it will need glass rods to support the corners the other says it won't. One says that it will probably leak in a few years if I use 8mm glass, and the other say 10mm glass will make the tank too heavy and is pointless and 8mm is structurally strong enough to support all the outward force put on it by the water. As the weight of the tank is being supported by the stand and not by the tank itself (Unless it is only being braced at the corners and not on a flat surface - someting not being done!) 


These are pictures of the back support which are under the top inside back of the stand.

There is a inner support which goes from top to bottom of the stand to further brace the weight from the top (middle board from above picture)

The front of the stand is supported by two layers of 18mm MDF, so 1 1/2 inches wide screwed together joining the sides, top, and front with 2 inch screws

The back braces, screwed to the sides will hold the sides together so now worries about the stand bending to one side or the other. And since the back braces are at the top and the bottom, each more than 1/3 of the total height of the stand it is well braced. (The opening is to allow heat to escape from the stand, make it a little lighter and give a place to grab when moving the stand) Plus I can use it to route the cords, filter pipes and CO2 if I don't wnat to drill holes in the sides.


Do you really think this is not enough?

I have looked at the stands in the shops, and they have no inside back braces, the back is usually just 3 mm thick cheap plywood where mine is a solid back. They usually have an inner back support 1" by the lenght of the inside of the stand to support the whole weight. There is no braces at the bottom of the stand and the wood they use is a lot thinner. 

The only place I think might ever have a problem would be the bottom of the stand where the sides join to it, but that would only be a problem if someone was standing on the inside of the stand and trying to lift up the top of the stand while still standing on it. (Unrealistic but it might happen) I will put two 2" by 2" boards to support that joint on each side.

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## vratenza

from your pictures, I think it may be just enough although If it is me, I may have some reservations.

let me give you a sample of my 6x2x2 tank cabinet which make use of a very strong marine grade wooden frame doing all the support. I have removable lourved/plywood panels all round which does nothing for the structural rigidity

the black beams are the supporting structures. I can take out all the panels without losing any structural rigidity.
I guess that may be my idea of stable support for a relatively heavy and fragile tank.

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## David Moses Heng

> from your pictures, I think it may be just enough although If it is me, I may have some reservations.
> 
> let me give you a sample of my 6x2x2 tank cabinet which make use of a very strong marine grade wooden frame doing all the support. I have removable lourved/plywood panels all round which does nothing for the structural rigidity
> 
> the black beams are the supporting structures. I can take out all the panels without losing any structural rigidity.
> I guess that may be my idea of stable support for a relatively heavy and fragile tank.


 
nice. Did you diy it yourself?

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## David Moses Heng

> Benny - Thanks. I not not even realize I had a personal gallery. Guess I haven't been using the forum to it's full potential.
> 
> Brian - you are correct. It is *MDF* 3/4" = 18mm MDF boards. Easy to find a B&Q or Homebox here. Good weight and strong, easy to work with though creates a great deal of dust when sanding and cutting.


Campbell, not that i'm against MDF boards but from what i know, MDF boards tends to expand after being exposed to moisture for a fare bit of time. Furthermore, at where you are(ROC), as one of the brothers here correctly pointed out is that you must also take into consideration that ROC is prone to earthquakes. When the ground shakes, the weight is more that than you have calculated. You need to take into consideration the dynamic loading on the cabinet should the ground shake. With the water swooshing in the tank like a mini tsunami, the weight difference is quite a fair bit.  :Shocked:  

Can any experts verify what i have just shared?

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## vratenza

> nice. Did you diy it yourself?



as much as I like to claim credit for... no...hhahaha :Grin:  
It was planned and commissioned by me, completed by a professional carpenter... :Grin:

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## David Moses Heng

> as much as I like to claim credit for... no...hhahaha 
> It was planned and commissioned by me, completed by a professional carpenter...


 
care to share the lobang and cost? good choice of material!

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## tcampbell

There is a big difference between the structural support need for the weight of a 6 foot tank compared by a 2 foot tank which is 2/3 of the height and 2/3 of the width.

I have looked at the structural supports over and over again and compared to what is at the LFS and I believe mine is better.

The effects of earthquakes I can not calculate, but even if the stand was very strong, a huge earthquake would cause it to come off the stand.
My smaller 10 Gallon tank has been sitting on an old school desk for the past 6 years here and have had no problems. I live in the NOrthwest part of Taiwan where eartquakes are less strong, just usually a few shakes and nothing falls down in my cupboards or shelves.

Thanks for the advice though.

Regarding moisture. All boards have been sealed and painted with an oil based paint, which shoudl stop the accidental moisture and the moisture in the air.

Most stands are made with plywood, which has the same mositure problem, then has a stick on coating to help resist water. The insides are usually never sealed or painted and no stick on coating and they last years.

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## vratenza

> care to share the lobang and cost? good choice of material!


I was trying to search my contacts but apparently lost his number...sigh
anyway, it cost me about $600 for the cabinet. Along with the tank from davidsws, my total cost comes to about 2/3 of the cost if I have gotten the whole set custom made from 1 person.

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## vratenza

tcampbell, 
I seriously think that you have already thought it through thoroughly before you started on your cabinet making.
what's more, it has already been made and to me, it seem like a prettry sound structure. All my inputs are merely fodders for you to think about as you are in a clearer position to judge what you really need.
Just relax. Enjoy the hobby! :Grin:

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## David Moses Heng

bro campbell, hope you are not offended by my "noisy" and "ignorant" inputs. :Razz:  like what vrantenza has mentioned, i believe that you have did your due calculations and taken the necessary precautions. all the best bro!! cheers!! :Smile:

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## lolo

Hi vratenza, it looks that, your tank is actually resting on the cabinet legs, instead of its bottom frame, right?

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## vratenza

> Hi vratenza, it looks that, your tank is actually resting on the cabinet legs, instead of its bottom frame, right?


There is an upper and lower frame. the supporting cabinet legs are in between.
across each leg there is a cross beam at th top and bottom as well......if you can imagine 2 exact ladder shaped structure at the top and bottom support by the legs.

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## tcampbell

Need suggestions. Please excuse the mess of the room as I am in the process of renovating.

If the stand is grey and the design i have shown



should I go with clear silicon (actuall a blueish green color becuase of the color of the glass at edges) or the black silicon.

I am trying to picture both in my mind and I can. The LFS says black is better as it will not get dirty looking like the clear and will not be as distracting as the bluish green color which happens when 10mm glass is joined together with silicon. 

But does it make the tank feel more "framed" in?. I was wondering as 10mm glass with both clear and black you will see the joining of the glass and with that size and Black ADA soil on the bottom and sides you will see water, black soild, bluish white rim, etc. If it was black would that be better?

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## ankank

> should I go with clear silicon (actuall a blueish green color becuase of the color of the glass at edges) or the black silicon.


Since you go for 8 to 10 mm glass, I would strongly suggest the clear silicon. I have seen lots of both black and clear silicon, and it basically comes down to how thick the silicon seam will be. Thin seams (5 or 6 mm) look fine with black silicon, thick ones don't and give the front wall a thick black frame.

Don't worry too much about the clear silicon getting dirty. If anything, only the part exposed to water will, the big (and visible) part is mostly between the glass walls.

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## lolo

I'll go for the black silicon because it's almost an impossible mission for me to clean the algae stain from clear silicon.

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## vratenza

not to mention medications such as malachite green.... :Razz:

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## tcampbell

Freddy - But when they used 5 or 6 mm glass and Black or clear silicon they end up using glass support rods and thicker / wider silicon so that the silicon seen is actually about 10mm wide anyway. If they are using 10 mm glass, there is no real internal silicon. Mostly the silicon is that which the glass connects to the glass and a very thing part of silicon to keep water out (1 mm)

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## tcampbell

After checking the site www.elosusa.com and seeing Elo tanks in Black silicon:

I realized how much the black "frame" or confines the tank and makes it look strange on a light colored stand. Guess ADA style is the way to go all clear.

I really want the stand in 8mm glass clear silicon, so I might just talk to the better tank making shops and see what they say. 

By the way - I take no offense to any suggestions or comments people say, that is why I ask, to make sure I am think of everything and not missing something. You all have more experience with me, and often get me to think of something new.

Filter for the tank will be Eheim 2215
Intake 

and Outflow will be glass ADA knockoffs called FLO Pipes. Look rather cool and the price is 45 USD per set.


CO2 will be using an external CO2 reactor from a company called ISTA "MIX MAX PRO" it is good, quiet and effective.

or this CO2 diffuser

as I have an extra one lying around and it should be perfect for a 61 cm tank

Soil is similar to ADA but by another company. (I am doing NEW a product test for the company before it is marketed)

Planting and scape will just be a lot of plants and water changes for the first month to have the tank stabilize then figure out what I do with it.

Lighting is hard as the stand is 85 cm high, the tank is 45 cm high (130 cm) and the light I want suspended above the tank. But even if it is 20 cm above the tank that will be 150 cm high. When I am stilling down in my office (where the tank is) the lights will be shining in my eyes! So I need a very flat fixture with good reflectors and T5 bulbs and some type of piece (like a car visor) in front of it that will prevent the light from shining in my eyes.
Like this but not MH??

though might go with this JBJ—61cmX 20cmX 5.5cm 24W*4 = 96watts 
Hopefully I can suspend it from the ceiling of bars



just need to see how it does with heat dispersion as there is no good light if the fixture can't get rid of the heat and not raise the tank temperature. One of the cheaper lights I use on my 90cm tank, I can't touch the light after on for more than 2 hours and the fixture is too hot!!
Since it is a 29 gallon tank I will shoot for about 90 watts of light in the fixture to give me room. Though I have been following a post about light and T5s and M shaped reflectors which stated if the reflectors are correct and the fixture is flat the light will have a more confined beam and reflect down into the tank better so that the watts per gallon rules do not apply and you can use less wattage of light.

I am staying away form MH as the temperature: I don't what to use a chiller and the fact that MH light the tank well but also "light the room and the neighbors’ house". There light is not very confined and shoots everywhere! That would definitely be in my eyes!

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## tcampbell

The Flo Pipes arrived. The quality is pretty good and the glass is thick. Not up to ADA standards in finish or packaging (the arrived wrapped in bubble wrap and a box of newspaper) but for the price of 45 dollars a set it is hard to expect that.

Customer service is great, and communications fast so I would recommend them (www.AQMagic.com / sales[email protected])
Pictures of my actual pipes are shown below.

Trying tofigure out how to suspend the T5 lights. Can't seem to find a metal worker here who can bend pipes so I can do it the ADA style, though still looking.

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## Star-flog

Excellent setup and very detail information, can't wait to see your final result... :Smile:

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## tcampbell

Well I am very late for an update so I will make it a good one. The tank is fianlly setup. That is the equipment is setup. Many pictures here so enjoy, I know I am. I really want to keep the tank empty right now as it is full of possibility and it seems any choice I make in layout will not do it justice.  :Sad: 

Where to begin. With the empty tank ofcourse:



Then the cork under the tank. Yup cork (the same stuff used in bulletin boards) 4~5mm thick. I tried looking for mats like the ADA mat and couldn't find it. The black pading used under floating hardwood floors was too thin, and difficult to come by, so I decided cork after the suggestion from a friend here. (Problems with this???)


Ofcourse there was a problem with the tank. There always has to be a problem, and this is mine. Bubbles in the silicon at the bottom side of the tanks. Unsightly, a little, but only when up really close and looking at the bottom side coner. The tank maker assured me this isn't a problem. Is it?


Now add the intake and return, from FLO Pipes (great prices and looks good - though a did have a problem with my intake being a little deformed on one set I bought)...




Well they do the same whirl affect the Lily Pipes do (at a lot lower price):





More of the whirl effec. I love looking at it.



Surface water movement to remove the protein build up. No more surface skimmer in the tank!! Yeah. Less equipment. shock: What a minute, I am a man, I should want more equipment in my tank!!!: :Opps:  



The lights I decided to go with are by Fishline, a Taiwan based company. 


They are the brightest lights on the market it seems:

due to great reflectors for each tube.
I had planned to buy T8s but considered hanging them and the t5 and fixture is lighter and just 2.50US more so I bought T5 (added bonus T5 are 24watt tubes and T8 are 18 or 20 watt tubes).

Have legs of I don't hang them as well

Color is very different with a Blue and green, but I am not worried about that as much as quality of light and price:

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## tcampbell

Though for my second light as this is only 48watts total, I will need more. I will probably buy the more expensive and better colored Schuber Wright AD2.


It is said to not even get warm to the touch, so worth a shot. Though quite expensive. But very effective:

It will be in the front and will probably be T5 to give me more flexiability in light tube choice and better prices.
And with the neutral grey color, not bad

Though it all depends upon my money situation after buying all the plants/driftwood and rocks to setup this tank!

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## ankank

> Where to begin. With the empty tank ofcourse


It looks very nice. The clear silicon really pays off.




> Then the cork under the tank. Yup cork (the same stuff used in bulletin boards) 4~5mm thick. I tried looking for mats like the ADA mat and couldn't find it.


Cork should work fine. The main purpose of the mat is to distribute pressure from the water content and dampen vibration which could otherwise lead to microfractures. A foam mat would be better because it also eliminates the pressure grain particles (like sand) on the mat put on the bottom wall, but I guess cork will work, too. (Hint: Over here, people sometimes go with camping equipment sleeping mats. Figure.  :Wink: )




> Bubbles in the silicon at the bottom side of the tanks. Unsightly, a little, but only when up really close and looking at the bottom side coner. The tank maker assured me this isn't a problem. Is it?


I can't imagine so. But it shows lack of craftmanship. Blame the tank maker.

All in all it turned out really really fine.

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## tcampbell

yeah, it was the tank maker. Oh well. The price wasn't really that bad. Total cost was 65 dollars for the tank in 10mm glass. Guess if I would have spend the 110dollars the other tank maker wanted I would have had a better tank (he has perfect seams and great silicon work, I just though this guy did too after seeing some of his tanks), though at a higher price. Maybe next time.. :Smile:  You get what you pay for.

I agree the clear silicon is much nicer. If I was going for a canopy and a stand the has a border around the tank I would probably get the black silicon. Or if a marine tank as it enclosed the tank and makes it like a picture frame, though the whole idea of this one was to be opened up!

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## tcampbell

Well the soil I am using is called Soil Pro Professional Grade Substrate. It is a Taiwan based company producing it, and should be on the market in the next couple of months. It is fantastic to use so far. "Soil Pro can buffer and maintain the PH at 6.8, providing a slightly acidic environment preferred by plants." is one of the quotes from the packaging.

Nice color and soft but firm texture. Soft enough it won't scratch glass, but firm enough it will hold together. Said to last well and maintain shape, not turning to powder.


Grain size is good and goes not look strange in tank, and is not uniform round balls like one brand, which looks very strange. 


The slope

and the final result


Now the water test. Will it cloud the water like ADA? I hate adding water slowly and usually just dump it in by buckets. ADA I can't do that unless I want to spend a couple of days with a clouded tank and plants covered with a black/brown film of dust.
So how did it do?
Water in place

The greenish color is from the glass and the room lighting. 

This picture was taken 10 seconds after I stirred the water and soil around with my hand. No cloudiness at all!! Nothing. Just clear water!! Fantastic!

Now this coming week will be the real test of the soil. Once it is planted and the plants start to grow. 

Right now I am just running the tank and filter for a few day with just the soil to get things a little established in the filter and the soil to adjust and balance the PH of the water before I add plants. Some people suggest doing this with ADA as it realeases a lot of excessive nutrients at first and the PH is not stable for a few days. I will do it with this soil as well, doing 50% water changes every day for the first 3 days then begin planting.

Chosing the layout and the plants will be the hardest part now!! so many styles I love and only one tank to plant!!

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## BFG

The cork mat material you are using absorb water if I'm not wrong so better be careful with water dripping out of the tank. Bubble in silicone are not a good thing for a tank. It is bad because the silicone has a lesser area gripping on to the glass than a silicone without bubble does. I did not logged in for the past few days but when I saw the size of the air bubbles, it does concern me to inform you of this.

If you have a chance to customise another tank in the future, use foam underneath the tank and get a good tankmaker who will guarantee his work. :Smile:

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## tcampbell

BFG - I guess I could always drain everything, remove the soil and put the foam underneath instead. That would tank time, but you are probably right that it would be better.

I agree that the bubbles in the tank silicon are not a good thing. The tank maker has guaranted to fix it if there is any problems, so that is a good thing. But the downside is if there is a problem it will probably be a big one.

Funny thing about the bubbles. THey are only on the bottom of the tank and only the first 2 inches near the corners, no where else, He claimed it was due to the movement of the glass and the use of a germany brand of silicon which is very good, and is not a problem since it is 10mm glass (over kill of a 60cm tank (110l / 29gallon)) Most of the bubbles are very fine 1mm bubbles and very few except the picture I posted which is one back side corner with a 3 inch span with all those bubbles.

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## Aeon

Really nice. Clear silicon makes me regret getting black for my 4ft tank.

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## tcampbell

Aeon - yeah, I understand. I feel the black looks great when it is empty and in the shop, but when you take it home it feels "boxed in" Only think I think useful thouhg is if black background, black stand and black silicon makes it book like the fishtank is a picture (which is rather cool) but clear silicon on an ada style stand makes it look like it is a floating world.

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## tcampbell

Ran a test today on the tank:

Ph 7.2
Ammonia (NH3/NH4+) = 0.5 mg/l
Nitrates: NO3- = 0.0 mg/l, NO2- = 0.0 ppm 
Phosphate PO4 3- = 0.25mg/l 
Kh = 3 degrees
Gh = 6 degrees

First time I ever used test kits on a tank so it it interesting to watch how it goes.

Plants quickly about 50% of tank and a piece of driftwood, no layout yet so no pictures. Just wanted to get something in the tank to go with the soil and help establish it as I was using everything new.

What I am considering now is how I will fertilize this tank. Just over the counter premixed stuff common in Taiwan as with a 110L tank the cost won't be that high. Follow the PPS-Pro method or EI Method.

EI for my tank would be:


KH2P04

20-40 Gallon Aquariums 
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week Potassium Nitrate 
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week Monopotassium Phosphate
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week Plantex CSM+B
50% weekly water change

(all time 1.5 for my 29 gallon tank as the info is for a 20 gallon tank and you double it for a 40gallon) though if I assume I am running a little lean on the light (I will have less then 3 watts per gallon), then I would start of with the above information and adjust it as growth inproves.

EI target ranges 
CO2 range 25-30 ppm - Hardest to maintain with temperature raise
NO3 range 5-30 ppm
K+ range 10-30 ppm
PO4 range 1.0-2.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher
GH range 3-5 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher
KH range 3-5

PPS-Pro is very simple

Need to dose 1 ml / 10 gallon daily before lights come on so I would need to dose approx 3ml daily

That would mean a 90ml bottle of solution would last me one month!!!
And to make that all I need is:
KN03 = 6g = have it
KH2P04 = 1g = have it
MgSo4 = 4g need to get it
K2SO4 = 5g need to get it
TE = 7grams

according to this Introducing the PPS-Pro Solutions Recipe http://ca.geocities.com/[email protected]

That sounds easy, cheap and not a lot of work, and uses a lot less chemicals then EI.

Great article on the changes in dosing methods and it makes sense to me:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...c-pps-pro.html

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## Aeon

Hi tcampbel. I bought the same flo pipes from Aqmagic but they are small and does not fit into canister filter pipes. How did you set up yours?

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## tcampbell

I am running them on an eheim 2215. They connect perfectly to the pipes. I have conected them to the Tetra 120 with an adaptor and smaller hose as well to test them out.
Then I went out and bought some clear hose from a local hardware store. Not fish specs but works and although it is a little bigger then the Eheim 2215 hoses it fits fine as well.


what filter are you using?
They claim to have a larger version coming out soon but I am not sure.

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## Aeon

I'm using an Atman CF1000. The hoses are pretty large. I think I'll get an adapter and clear hoses as well.

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## oblivion

might be a little OT here but seems like the Flo pipes only come in 1 size?
i checked out the webbie and seems that way
and based on the measurements inn your pics of the pipe sizes, i gather they need at least a 1.5-2 footer

was considering getting a couple sets for my 1-footers but they are like kinda abit too big

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## tcampbell

Yes currently they only come in one lenght and in one pipe side. 12/16. My tank is 61X40X45cm high (so a 2 foot with extra width and heigth) so they fit fine with mine. I don't think they would look good on a 1 foot tank. The return might be fine, but the intake wouldn't. Once you add 1~3 " or soil to the tank and keeping the intake slightly off the soil, you would have it raised 3~4 inches up from the rim of the tank and the first suction cup starts just 2" below the curve so it wouldn't work.

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## oblivion

aww shucks 
guess i have to look around for alternatives
was hoping they have suitably sized sets
very reasonably priced since they cost for 1 set only slightly more than half of what a single piece of ada would cost


i'm not generous enough with my wallet to spend that much on an ada set for 1 footers
besides, if i did, my domestic finance minister will have my head (or demand a diamond ring that will make the ada cost seem almost negligible in comparison)  :Razz:

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## Aeon

LOL @ domestic finance minister.

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## tcampbell

I have the same problem, thus the cheaper pipes! I just tell her half what I pay for the tanks!!

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## oblivion

> I have the same problem, thus the cheaper pipes! I just tell her half what I pay for the tanks!!


haha i guess many more others apart from us do that
everything i buy i have to "discount" the price
and make sure i pay cash! no statements in the credit card bills as evidence!  :Grin:  

but honestly, back to the topic, apart from ada, anyone knows where i can get replica pipes good for small tanks i.e. 1-footers?
i simply love 1-footers now

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## vurbul

Hi tcampbell,
From your experience of using the Mix Max and designing it. Would a Ehiem 2211 flowrate be enough to power them?

Thanks

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## tcampbell

I have not actually used an Eheim 2211 on it, however I can say for certain the Eden 501 or other similiar filters will not work with it. The flowrate though stated as fast is not fast enough. However I know the Eheim 2215 is more then powerful enough for the Mix Max M. That said, 360 LPH is the min recommended output for a filter since all small capacity filters tried below this were too small.
Eheim filters are always more efficient then other cheaper name brand filters like ZooMed, Eden and others, so it is quite possible it will be fine, but I can not say for certain.
With slower flowrates the gases simply gathered at the top of the Mix Max near the impeller and level of gas would continue to grow, thus stopping the impeller. The Mix max would have to be turned over for the gases to escape into the tank in a rush and it to start again (effectively being useless). If the bubble rate was very slow, less then 1 bubble per 2 second there was no problems however as the gas was able to be dissolved into the water and the build up of gas at the top did not occur.

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## tcampbell

Well it has been a while since I posted any pictures so I should post them now. I started everything off slow.

Lights = 48 watts T5 using a Fishline Light Fixture. Very bright. One tube is a Philips Master 865 and the other is the Philips Master 840. So I get a mixture of more reddish light with more white/blue light. So that is 1.65 watts per gallon, very similar to what Tom Barr suggests a tank should have and he give an example with the low light ADA tank. http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ght=plantbrain

So 

Filter is the Eheim 2215 of course with just the standard course green filter media and one layer of white filter floss.

Soil was a test version of soil I mentioned previously. One bag of 9l which really wasn't enough soil but I made due.

Problems or issues = only two, the glass pipes get dirty fast and need to be cleaned as you see in the picture. Two, the soil wasn't enough to easily plant so I made do.

The tank was setup from scratch, so no mature filter, etc.

Day one put in soil and ran filter, no lights no co2
Day two drained all water and refilled
Day three drained all water and refilled
Day four planted the tank
Day five drained half water and refilled
Day six drained half water and refilled
Day seven added shrimp (50 or more small ones)
Day eight drained half water and refilled
Day nine added 5 Rummy noses tetra, One oto
Day ten added fish, what are the called...... I forget orange color suck agea off glass and plants.
Day eleven drained half water and refilled
Day twelve added 5 more rummy nose tetras and two corys
Day thirteen watched fish
Day fourteen drained half water and refilled
Day sixteen watched fish
Now Day 21 drained half the water and refilled

Test results:
NH4 gradually rose for the first 6 days to 1.0mg/l then dropped by the 8th to 0.5mg/l and down to 0 by the 9th day and has been that way since.

Po4 has been a stable 0.25mg/l , the same as my tap water

NO2 stayed 0 until the 9th day, rose to 1.0 then 2.0 on the 13th day then dropped sown to 0 by the 18th day

No3 stayed 0 until the 9th day where is went to 5.0 and has stayed that way until I added ferts.

KH has been a stable 3
Gh was a 6 and in the last week rose to 7

Started ferts for the first time 3 days ago and now levels are

NH4 = 0.0
PO4 = 1.0
NO2 = 0.0
NO3 = 5.0
KH = 3
GH = 7

Dosing is 1.4tsp Kno3 X2 a week, 1/16 Tsp Kh2Po4 X 2 a week, 1/16 tsp Plantex CSM + B X 3 a week

These has been no issue and no algae. Tank is responding ok. I was not able to start CO2 until 3 days ago as I was running tests on the soil, natural buffering level and nutrient levels, and couldn't have the CO2 or ferts mess with that. OH well. Results have been fine.

Here is the picture:


The plants in the two front corners are just there as I haven't had time to do anything with them yet.

Please don't judge the layout to strongly as this setup wasn't really about a layout but rather comparing the soil to ADA soil and water cloudiness, easy of setup, buffering level, quality of soil, downsides, etc.

Good news is have a tank with no algae for 3 weeks and no problems. The soil is good, easy to use and will be a great product, with no water cloudiness.

Bad news is I am dismantling the tank tomorrow. I have been asked to test out another version of soil (this time I will have the proper amount for planting as I have 2 bags) and see how it compares.

Shouldn't be bad, take out all plants, and hardscape. Catch all the fish, remove the soil. Clean the tank. Clean the pipes, etc. Add new soil and start over.

Suggestions on layout welcomed.

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## ankank

> the glass pipes get dirty fast


I almost feared that it would be this way, from my experience with clear tubing clear equipment almost never stays clear.




> Day two drained all water and refilled
> Day three drained all water and refilled
> (...)
> Day five drained half water and refilled
> Day six drained half water and refilled
> (...)
> Day eight drained half water and refilled
> (...)
> Day eleven drained half water and refilled
> ...


Excuse me for asking, but why on earth would you do water changes within the cycling period? You're constantly disturbing any process. This only makes your tank cycle process longer. Yes, there is empiric data to back up that statement, if you like I can look it up.

Edit: The proof is done by Olaf Deters, a well known and respected german aquarist on his page about the cycling process (in German). Using nitrification simulation he conclusively shows that a water change of 50% disturbs and a water change of 60% basically reboots the cycling process every time. It is safe to say that the best strategy is not to change any water until the tank has fully cycled. (Edit²: Online translation services fail miserably to translate the mentioned web page to anything near comprehensible English. If you like, I can provide a quick translation of the respective paragraphs at "Wasserwechsel und Mulmabsaugen".)

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## Aeon

The best way to remove ammonia built up in a tank is still water changes IMO.
Water changes shouldn't reboot cycling. Maybe WC have different effects on cycling in different parts of the world.

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## ankank

> The best way to remove ammonia built up in a tank is still water changes


The best way to remove ammonia are nitrite bacteria. That's the point of cycling a tank: To build nitrite bacteria which are feeding on ammonia, and to build nitrate bacteria which are feeding on nitrite. When doing large water changes while cycling you starve nitrite and nitrate bacteria and extend the cycling process considerably.

There's nothing wrong with frequent water changes (although, for a fully cycled and well working tank to remove ammonia they shouldn't be necessary). Just don't do them before the tank has completely cycled.

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## tcampbell

From past experince and theexperience of others on this and other forums I decided to do the frequent water changes during cycling. I was in no rush to have it fully cycled, I just wanted to get it up and running with no algea.
I have noticed that many people setting up their tanks with similiar specs are fully of algae during the inital setup, sometimes they never get it cleared up. Is it by the mistakes they make? Possibly. But I have also noticed that all of them seem to never do frequent water changes during the inital stages.

That said, my Amonia level never climbed very high (1.0 at the highest) and was down to 0 by the 9th day. Actually not that bad as many people take weeks to cycle a tank.

Liek wise my NO2 only rose to 2.0 on the 9th day (when NH4 was at it's lowest) and then went on a decline from there.


My plant mass isn't huge, and I was trying a with fish cycling process. I wasn't wishing to kill all the fish or shrimp with high levels of NH4 and I found that the water changes did this.

Was this the best was. I am sure it wasn't in all cases, but in mine it worked.
Do I think it might hav ebeen better to not do water changes and allow the tank to fully cycle before I did them? Maybe.

Would doing so have caused an algea outbreak or any kind, I am not sure.

"extend the cycling process considerably." - well if that is true, then my tank could have been cycled a lot faster, but the fish and shrimp in the tank would have suffered due to the elevated levels of NH4 and NO2.

I will consider it next time for a fishless cycle.

Thomas

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## Aeon

During initial cycling, the nitrifying bacteria are not established yet so it makes sense to do water changes (unless the water source contains more harmful N). Without water changes, the ammonia levels might overtake the establishment of nitrifying bacteria and then you have green water.

And even with a fully established filtration system, water changes are still needed. Natural waters are ever-replenishing. But in an aquarium, we can only replenish through water changes. When tank water is not changed, there are others things being accumulated besides what bacteria can feed on. Like excess fertilisers, heavy metals, excess waste, pathogens, etc.

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## tcampbell

> During initial cycling, the nitrifying bacteria are not established yet so it makes sense to do water changes (unless the water source contains more harmful N). Without water changes, the ammonia levels might overtake the establishment of nitrifying bacteria and then you have green water.
> 
> And even with a fully established filtration system, water changes are still needed. Natural waters are ever-replenishing.


That is my opinion completely and why I did the water changes and will continue 50% weekly.
I am sure there are cases and studies which wil prove it unnecessary and actually harmful in cycling a tank as were pointed out by Freddy, but I feel for me this was most effective.

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## ankank

> During initial cycling, the nitrifying bacteria are not established yet


Of course not. That is the point of cycling: To build up nitrite bacteria. I still stand by my statement that water changes extend the cycling period. That being said ...




> and then you have green water.


... I can see both your point when it comes to algae. I have cycled quite some tanks without water change, but I have never had "green water" to speak of. Even if you mentioned it jokingly before, this may actually really be something that is different between our countries. I don't know the quality of your tap water, here in Germany it is controlled to the point where its quality is actually _better than any bottled water you can buy_ (from the water company's fact sheet, ammonia is constantly < 0,02 mg/l). So here, the problem with excessive ammonia build-up may not be anything like what you experience.




> And even with a fully established filtration system, water changes are still needed.


I agree, I was only talking about changing water while cycling. I believe in "freshening up" the water frequently, and at the very least, I can see my fish enjoying it very much.

Even if there are some aquarists here who are successfully experimenting with so-called "Altwasserbecken" (literally "old water tanks") where a careful selection of plants and livestock leads to a tank that can last several months without water changes.

Edit:



> my tank could have been cycled a lot faster, but the fish and shrimp in the tank would have suffered due to the elevated levels of NH4 and NO2.


Ah, also something we do very differently. Over here, it is so common to insert fish only after the tank has fully cycled that practically noone does otherwise. Shrimp are still uncommon amongst fishkeepers here, which I cannot understand, but they gain popularity.

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## stephen chung

tcampell,

Are those pipes from Aquamagic glass or plastic?

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## Aeon

AquaticMagic. It was mentioned in the earlier pages.

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## tcampbell

As Aeon mentioned, yes, AquaticMagic. They are great though difficult to clean, as with any glass pipes and the rounded end doesn't help much.
Bleach and water and high pressure hose.

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## stephen chung

I just saw something similar at Biotope, but is from china...

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## tcampbell

I think there are many different versions coming out now, as many peopel are unwilling to pay the extreme price of ADA products. I know there is a similiar version which came out in Taiwan the other year.

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## doppelbanddwarf

Ooooo didn't notice when i went to Biotope just now. Stephen did you look at the price. Could you pm me the price. Also how's the quality?

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## stephen chung

I didn't ask. As Thio was setting up the tank. He say he only have that set now and the rest will be coming in next week. I have not seen the AquaticMagic one before so I won't know if they are exactly the same.

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## Aeon

Thio's set is "ANS" brand. I went there today and that is what he told me. About $65 per set. Looks exactly like the AquaticMagic one.

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## stephen chung

Oh yes is ANS...too I can't use..my brace.....sigh :Mad:

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## oblivion

> I just saw something similar at Biotope, but is from china...





> Thio's set is "ANS" brand. I went there today and that is what he told me. About $65 per set. Looks exactly like the AquaticMagic one.


i always thought ANS was a taiwan brand?

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## Aeon

Taiwan brand but made in China?

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