# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Cichlids >  doubleace's Apistogamma agassizii "Fire Red" & Apistogramma macmasteri

## doubleace

*Apistogramma Agassizii "Fire Red"*

Sorry for the blur pic of the male, very hard to take as he scare of the female when he come out of the cave the female push him back in.  :Confused: 

Male






Female


*Apistogramma Macmasteri*

Male


Female


Any comments are welcome..  :Grin:

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## Cacatuoides

The Aga 'Fire Red' is looking great!! Hope they'll spawn for you soon!!

Any pictures of the whole tank setup? thanks  :Wink:

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## doubleace

Yup... Eman here's the pic of the tank setup  :Smile: 

*Ap. Agassizii "Fire red" Tank*


*Ap. Macmasteri Tank*

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## Samuel2618

Hi Bro..

Nice Mac pair you got there.. Looks a bit like Viejita actually.. Both actually no difference la.. They almost look the same anyway.. Looks very much coloured up as compared to the day I saw the pair at C328..

As for the pair of Aga Fire Red you bought from bro Cacatuoides.. Think they are also doing very well in the tank as well.. 

Know you all putting in a lot of effort in giving them a very good home from the start.. Keep up the good effort and hobby..  :Well done: 

Regards
Samuel

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## doubleace

Thanks bro. Yup they're doing well in the tank.. Trying hard to give them lots of hiding place.  :Grin:  Ya lor at first i though they are Vejita but the uncle wrote there Mac.. Still not sure what are the different between these both spices. Still got alot to learn from you all too..  :Smile:

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## Zenislev

Yo doubleace, may i know how much does your Macmasteri pair cost? Well, i personally think its more like Viejita though.

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## doubleace

It cost $40. Viejita or Mac how to different them?  :Confused: 

Zack your avatar is Ap. Nijsenni?

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## Cacatuoides

Thanks for the tank pics bro, they're great homes for the apistos!! I'm sure they're loving it!  :Wink: 

Viejita and Macmestari are very close in nature, there is a discussion thread on apistogramma.com forum, can try searching it there

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## Zenislev

Oh my avatar, thats the ap. Nij you sold me doubleace.  :Grin:

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## doubleace

wow he has grown up.. very well taken care by you.  :Smile:

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## doubleace

After searching all the thread between Viejita and Macmasteri in apistogramma.com and the information given by Zack and Samuel.. I think my pair is a Viejita. Correct me if i'm wrong. :Grin:

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## wiki

Hi doubleace, your fish is an _Ap. vijeta_ II "Super Red" strain to be exact.

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## doubleace

Wiki, confirm? Now i am confuse already.. :Laughing:  unless i use samuel Mac to compare the different..  :Smile:

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## wiki

Note the difference on the 1st dorsal spine between _Ap. macmasteri_ & _Ap. vijeta_ when they flare. _Ap. vijeta's_ 1st dorsal spine is solid black in color, while _Ap. macmasteri_ does not have it.

I mentioned _Ap. vijeta_ II "Super Red" *strain*. I hope we do not confuse it here with Frank Wilhem's _Ap. vijeta_ II "Super Red".  :Smile:

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## wiki

Further to my posting above, I would also like to add the common confusion usually occurs between _Ap. macmasteri_ "Red Neck" & _Ap. vijeta_ II "Super Red". 

The reason why I said it was a strain here is because there is a high chance these 2 specimens might have inter bred for some time due to the mixup among local commercial farmers. 

The specimen we are discussing here possess features very close to an _Ap. vijeta_ II "Super Red" instead of an _Ap. macmasteri_ "Red Neck".

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## doubleace

So from the conclusion for this pair is a Viejita?

As what Wiki mention the difference on the 1st dorsal spine between M_acmasteri_ & V_ijeta_ when they flare. V_ijeta's_ 1st dorsal spine is solid black in color, while M_acmasteri_ does not have it. So my male has a solid black color on his dorsal spine which i asume its a Viejita?


Like what Samuel said, "nomatter is a Viejita or Macmasteri as long it is nice and you like it is enough."  :Smile:

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## Quixotic

No disrespect wiki, but just curious about some of the terminologies used. What exactly is the meaning of the term "strain"?

I don't dabble much in Apistogrammas, but is A. vijeta II "Super Red" wild in origin or has this been selectively bred for the "Super Red"?

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## Cacatuoides

I suppose A. Viejita II is selectively bred by Wilhelm for its "Super Red" line, I think those viejitas available out there are just normal A. Viejita II

my 2 cents
(A. Viejita II 'Super Red' will look very much like Nicholas' previous pair)

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## genes

Very nice setups for your apistos! Especially the nana tank with some slight scaping involved!  :Smug: 

Perhaps some pictures involving Ap. macmasteri and Ap. viejita might make things clearer. From the pictures, like wiki said, the first dorsal fin membrane of ap. viejita does appear to be black and this is not the case for the ap. macmasteri. However, i have seen specimens of ap. viejita without the black first dorsal membrane as well. Attributed to cross breeding if indeed this trait is accurate to distinguish ap. viejita from ap. macmasteri.

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## nicktc

Great pics.  :Well done:  Says it all.

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## benetay

Good information for people to distinguish the difference between them! :Grin: 

Thanks Eugene!

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## Quixotic

> I suppose A. Viejita II is selectively bred by Wilhelm for its "Super Red" line, I think those viejitas available out there are just normal A. Viejita II.


If it has been selectively bred, wouldn't that make _A. vijeta_ II "Super Red" a strain, no matter is it from Mr. Wilhem, or from any other breeders? If so, I would caution against using the term strain for the purpose of distinguishing these then...



> I mentioned _Ap. vijeta_ II "Super Red" *strain*. I hope we do not confuse it here with Frank Wilhem's _Ap. vijeta_ II "Super Red". 
> 
> The reason why I said it was a strain here is because there is a high chance these 2 specimens might have inter bred for some time due to the mixup among local commercial farmers


... as it may potentially be confusing.

Maybe we should use the term _A._ cf. _vijeta_ II "Super Red" instead for those that cannot be positively confirmed as such. _A._ cf. _vijeta_ II "Super Red" indicates "a fish similar to _A. vijeta_ II but not certainly identified as this species". Or something else, instead of using the term "strain".

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## doubleace

Thanks for all the identification.  :Smile: 

Erm so my pair is Viejita II "Super Red"?

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## genes

Looks like it.  :Smile:

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## doubleace

hmm.. is this pair still young? Wonder when they grow up will the dosal fins extend?

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## wasabi8888

doubleace

is that the tank I gave you? wow!!!

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## wiki

> If it has been selectively bred, wouldn't that make _A. vijeta_ II "Super Red" a strain, no matter is it from Mr. Wilhem, or from any other breeders? If so, I would caution against using the term strain for the purpose of distinguishing these then...
> 
> ... as it may potentially be confusing.
> 
> Maybe we should use the term _A._ cf. _vijeta_ II "Super Red" instead for those that cannot be positively confirmed as such. _A._ cf. _vijeta_ II "Super Red" indicates "a fish similar to _A. vijeta_ II but not certainly identified as this species". Or something else, instead of using the term "strain".


No offence taken Quixotic, it's suppose to be an open discussion.  :Smile: 

The term strain used here in the discussion is general and meant as a layman term for hobbyist's easy understanding. Tail features of doubleace's specimen discussed here differs from Frank Wilhem's _Ap. vijeta II_ 'Super Red', especially when we compare the tail coloration. The true bloodline from Wilhem has a full red tinge. Should doubleace's fish be a wild _Ap. vijeta II_ instead, the tail coloration would've been right. 

On a personal note, I do not think it is appropriate for any of us here to term it as confer inengl. There has been no scientific paper to my knowledge so far published, to determine this name you mentioned as a recognised one within the fish Icthyologycommunity. Secondly, it would be more appropriate to leave this to the scientific entities instead of us making this sort of decision.

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## doubleace

> doubleace
> 
> is that the tank I gave you? wow!!!


Yup Jeff.. The Mac's (so call Viejita) tank is the 1 you give me. I've remove all the oyama poster except the back to make it the same as the rest of the tanks.  :Wink:

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## Samuel2618

Bro doubleace.. 

I love your tanks.. They are simple, neat and easy for maintainence.. I love the Mac tank especially.. Ideal place for apistos to live in.. Did I see a coconut husk at the back of the plant in the Aga Fire Red tank??

Just set up a nano tank too for my upcoming pair despite mutiple objections from parents and wife.. That's why I really envy people who can set up tanks whenever they like..  :Laughing: 

Regards
Samuel

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## Cacatuoides

Hey Samuel,

Thats a coconut husk with moss on it in Andy's A. Agassizii 'Fire Red' tank. I have some for sale, check out my sales thread  :Wink:  clearing lots of caves used for apisto breeding

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## Ian Lim

Bro Doublace,

What is the size of the tank you use to house the apisto? Filtration use? Thanks

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## doubleace

> Bro doubleace.. 
> 
> I love your tanks.. They are simple, neat and easy for maintainence.. I love the Mac tank especially.. Ideal place for apistos to live in.. Did I see a coconut husk at the back of the plant in the Aga Fire Red tank??
> 
> Just set up a nano tank too for my upcoming pair despite mutiple objections from parents and wife.. That's why I really envy people who can set up tanks whenever they like.. 
> 
> Regards
> Samuel


Bro Samuel

Thanks... yup thats a coconut husk in the aga "fire red" tank as what Eman had mention.  :Smile: 




> Bro Doublace,
> 
> What is the size of the tank you use to house the apisto? Filtration use? Thanks


Hi Ian

My tank size is 1ft cube tank and the filtration use is sponge filter.  :Wink:

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## doubleace

Great.. my viejita pair also breed already and i can see their fries with the mom.. Now I'm headache.. Going to run out of tanks already.  :Grin:

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## genes

Well, there are always breeder boxes.  :Grin:

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## doubleace

Breeder boxes for parents or fries?  :Grin:

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## genes

Thats for you to decide...

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## doubleace

currently only keep the male in the breeding tank. Maybe will shift them to a new tank. If not have to get external breeding box for the fries..

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## inimicus

Wow amazing pictures.

May i ask what's a good temp for these guys to get into the mood for breeding? Are they good jumpers? Is it necessary to place a cover over the tank?

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## doubleace

Temperature not really that important as the pH is. pH must be at least 5 or below. Don't think they are a good jumpers unless one of them been force to a corner and jump out or the water is not stable for them but for mine they don't jump although i still put mess cover over the tank to play safe.  :Wink:

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## genes

Apistos are known to be jumpers as well. So do provide lots of hiding space if you are keeping a pair in a small tank.

For breeding, frequent water changes can incite them to breed. Also, not all species requires a low ph to breed. For example, ap. cacatuoides can breed in neutral water. I have also bred ap. bitaeniata in ph 6.5. Going below 5 may sometimes cause acid burns on the fishes which may result in death. Tell tale signs are melted finnages.

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## pepe2403

Can't really tell the differences without reading this thread. But i got to say both are beautiful fishes.

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