# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna >  Prototype - Green in Sump

## bravobb

Purposes are to reduce water changed and less filter wool changes...

Also to create natural water filtration as close to the real world, so as to create trace elements naturally.

Understand moss ball is a kind of good algae... moderate amount is good for the tank and fishes..




Week One - Introduction of Moss Balls in sump.
This is last week poo... Shall do an update every week to see whether there is any improvement...

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## bravobb

This week poo amount look almost the same... but at least i have added additional NGT and with the increase bioload... the wool did not clog... 
Not sure it is due to the moss ball effect but will check again next week.

This week has added hornwort and water lily...

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## bravobb

By the way, i happened to come across a thread in other forum talking about NOT to remove the filter wool in the sump as it contains good bacteria.. 
I just cannot understand the rational behind it... wanted to comment in that forum... but i know there will definitely be a fierce debate and i also do not want to put myself as the bad guy to give an impression that i am looking for trouble... (i did a fierce one before... it is just pointless...)
Anyone care to comment and enlighten me why filter wool should not be removed ? I throw them every week because to me... these are waste and will be just like a nitrate time bomb if not removed..

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## Draka

Haha bro, the rationale for not removing or even not washing filter wool is when it doesn't run the risk of becoming clogged and to prevent new tank syndrome. At least, I think that's why haha. 

In a nutshell, there is plenty of beneficial bacteria in the filter wool and as the number of inhabitants increase, the bacteria grows with them. These deal with the wastes given off, converting them to non-toxic form. Washing too much or throwing away too much will result in possibly too low amounts of the beneficial bacteria and a temporary accumulation of the toxic waste. Although temporary, will stress the fish unduly. Repeat this cycle, the tank and it's inhabitants will run into trouble or get sick. 

That said, there are plenty of good reasons to wash or change the filter media, when done correctly and when necessary. For my own tanks depending on their setup, I wash the filter media fortnightly, quarterly or even yearly.

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## bravobb

Bro... that is interesting. BB growing in dirty filter wool.
If that is the case, there is no need to use biomedia since the wool can do both mechanical and biological.
Am i missing something here ?
Or maybe we shall said in this way.
1. What are the pros and cons by not washing or changing the dirty filter wool.
2. What are the pros and cons by washing and changing the dirty filter wool.
Anyone care to contribute ?

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## Draka

Bro... Ask questions with an open mind... 

What do bacteria feed on and can they grow on filter wool? What does filter wool filter out of the tank anyway?

Media is rarely purely just mechanical. Cons of not removing is clogging and when clogged, potential die off of bb with associated ammonia/nitrate spike and I presume this is the bomb you are referring to. It's easier for this clogging to occur for filter wool due to it being very fine. Cons of not changing the filter wool is that repeated washing and the actual use results in it clogging more easily than new filter wool after some time.

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## bravobb

Sure, i am asking with open mind even though my choice is still to remove the filter wool.
What you have mentioned are the CONS for not removing and washing/reusing the filter wool.
I would like to know what are the PROS for not removing and not washing the filter wool.... (This is the thing that puzzled me when someone in another forum was telling everyone that)

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## jemswira

Well from what I understand the BB can grow on almost any surface, like the tank walls and substrate etc etc. By removing the filter wool and washing it, you are removing a portion of your BB colony in the tank at once. 
Why do we need biological media when we already have filter wool? The common consensus is simply even more surface area for the BB to colonise. and I believe the reason that the filter wool goes before the biomedia is because the biomeia has a lot more available surface area for colonisation, and clogging it up would be easier than clogging up the filterwool.

Jusy my 2c.

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## bravobb

@Jemswira
That sound logical. So basically we can use 100% filter wool to handle both mechanical and biology needs, but however, in order to prevent clogging, this type of implementation is not recommended.
So, if we have filter wool and biomedia, can we say that it is safe to clean/removed the filter wool, leaving the biomedia untouched ?

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## Shi Xuan

Indeed, bacteria grows on all surfaces in the tank and by cleaning the filter wool, you are removing a small portion of the bacteria in your tank. The best "natural" filtration method I've seen or inspired of, is the Hamburg Mattenfilter. This concept is relatively old but very practical. Below are some links for your reference;

http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...e-a-HMF-Filter
http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php...n-Filter-(HMF)

And a smaller version of HMF;
http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php...ttenfilter-HMF

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## tetrakid

Thanks to ShiXuan for highlighting the Hamburg Mattenfilter which I am sure many hobbyists live by.

For those who don't like the tank's front width to be reduced, it is also possible to design it so that the curved filtering mat starts a few inches behind the tank's front. This is done by glueing the two front vertical holding strips a few inches away from the tank's front. This way, the whole frontal area will be available for fish to swim in, thus increasing the overall viewing area.

For driving the water, I will prefer to use the air-pump method simply because it will be more effective for added oxygenation. but for bigger tanks, maybe a powerful head will be needed. Much depends on the resultant flow rate, which is a very important factor.

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## bravobb

> Indeed, bacteria grows on all surfaces in the tank and by cleaning the filter wool, you are removing a small portion of the bacteria in your tank. The best "natural" filtration method I've seen or inspired of, is the Hamburg Mattenfilter. This concept is relatively old but very practical. Below are some links for your reference;
> 
> http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/
> http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...e-a-HMF-Filter
> http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php...n-Filter-(HMF)
> 
> And a smaller version of HMF;
> http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php...ttenfilter-HMF


Thank you. This is very interesting. Different from Diana design but i would like to try.
Just that thesizing a Mattenfilter is kind of confusing... Maybe i just use a rectangle tank as mentioned in the article so the setup will be easy..  :Well done:

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## bravobb

> Thanks to ShiXuan for highlighting the Hamburg Mattenfilter which I am sure many hobbyists live by.
> 
> For those who don't like the tank's front width to be reduced, it is also possible to design it so that the curved filtering mat starts a few inches behind the tank's front. This is done by glueing the two front vertical holding strips a few inches away from the tank's front. This way, the whole frontal area will be available for fish to swim in, thus increasing the overall viewing area.
> 
> For driving the water, I will prefer to use the air-pump method simply because it will be more effective for added oxygenation. but for bigger tanks, maybe a powerful head will be needed. Much depends on the resultant flow rate, which is a very important factor.


Bro, as mentioned in the article, a curved Mattenfilter design is not safe and will lead to a crash of the tank.

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## Draka

> Bro, as mentioned in the article, a curved Mattenfilter design is not safe and will lead to a crash of the tank.


Haha bro, the article mentions that a curve that is inwards to the corner itself is not safe and will lead to a crash. However, it does not state that the more usual outward curve will lead to a crash of the tank. It's quite stable actually.

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## tetrakid

For curved designs, the trick lies in the selection of the right density mat filtering media, plus minimizing the bent, and ensuring a large portion of the mat is uncurved.

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## bravobb

> Haha bro, the article mentions that a curve that is inwards to the corner itself is not safe and will lead to a crash. However, it does not state that the more usual outward curve will lead to a crash of the tank. It's quite stable actually.


So embarrassed... haha... what is the different between inwards and outward curve ?

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## Draka

Eh I'm not too sure myself if this is what the author means, but from what I understand is when the author speaks of an implosion it is due to the pressure difference between the inside (water intake area) and the outside (main tank area/water output area). It is after all this pressure difference that we are relying on to drive the water through the sponge. As he stated, with an older mat the difference in pressure would be higher. This pressure is exerted on the sponge from the outside to the inside. 

If it is an inside curve, the curve facing towards the corner rather than facing away from the corner, this pressure is exerted in the same direction as the curve and would serve to "fold" the curve further, flexing it and stressing it. If not sufficiently secured this would result in the sponge coming off and if left unremedied, crash. However imho if secured as tetrakid said, I doubt it'd be that much of a problem. One point though, that is simply speculation on my part, would be that such flexing of the sponge would dislodge bacteria from the sponge that would be pumped into the tank and it's not something I'd like on a regular basis. 

If conversely it is an outward curve, the curve radiating away from the corner, the curve itself would be in the opposite direction of the pressure exerted by the water and would thus resist it, resulting in a stable fixed position of the sponge. As this filter is purely biological and can serve long periods with minimal to no cleaning, it makes more sense to go for the version that provides more stability.

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## bravobb

I still do not understand the differences in the curve thing... doesn't matters... 
I just got myself the 50cm sponge... going to convert my HOF pump to use for this HMF design... 
No sand and java moss at the moment. 
Hope to get it setup and take a picture to share with everyone... Anyway... it is just a simple setup... nothing outstanding so do not be too hopeful...  :Grin:

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## Draka

Lol it's simple. Got different curves. One of them not safe. That's all.

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## Shi Xuan

Pardon me if I don't answer your question because I want to get straight to the point. :Opps:  

HMF is basically, a filter which utilizes the water circulation to feed the biological bacteria colonizing on the surface of the filter pad. It is more of a medium, to culture the essential bacteria necessary for the biological cycle to be stable. One key advantage of this filtration is that, the maintenance is really low. The HMF can continue for a long time before the pad becomes clogged and badly in need of a cleaning. I've even read from someone that he hardly clean his HMF for almost a decade! Just for that, I could imagine the endless possibility.

The drawback of this filtration however, is that, it takes up too much space, especially when tank space is a premium. Some people opt for something less conventional but still practical nonetheless and a curved one serve to preserve that. It doesn't compromise the surface area, only curved to provide more room for the fishes. Others think HMF as unsightly but this can be remedied by having the surface of the HMF planted with some creeping plants, like Java moss. Besides, it looks pretty neat too. Should you have done that, the principle is the same as your "marimo moss ball/Green in Sump" concept, more or less.

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## bravobb

> Lol it's simple. Got different curves. One of them not safe. That's all.


True enough. This i understand.  :Grin:

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## bravobb

> Pardon me if I don't answer your question because I want to get straight to the point. 
> 
> HMF is basically, a filter which utilizes the water circulation to feed the biological bacteria colonizing on the surface of the filter pad. It is more of a medium, to culture the essential bacteria necessary for the biological cycle to be stable. One key advantage of this filtration is that, the maintenance is really low. The HMF can continue for a long time before the pad becomes clogged and badly in need of a cleaning. I've even read from someone that he hardly clean his HMF for almost a decade! Just for that, I could imagine the endless possibility.
> 
> The drawback of this filtration however, is that, it takes up too much space, especially when tank space is a premium. Some people opt for something less conventional but still practical nonetheless and a curved one serve to preserve that. It doesn't compromise the surface area, only curved to provide more room for the fishes. Others think HMF as unsightly but this can be remedied by having the surface of the HMF planted with some creeping plants, like Java moss. Besides, it looks pretty neat too. Should you have done that, the principle is the same as your "marimo moss ball/Green in Sump" concept, more or less.


Actually taking too much space is very subjective. To me, i find the space required is almost like the IOS/IOUS system. But the advantages like using the HMF for a decade and low maintenance... it is a big plus !
But i wonder how often water changed is require as i do not like regular water changed. Also i am going to do a small setup to house some feeders.. so less water changed and low maintenance is good with sustainable good bacteria growth is good. Anyway... let me do the test and more test...  :Smile:

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## bravobb

> This week poo amount look almost the same... but at least i have added additional NGT and with the increase bioload... the wool did not clog... 
> Not sure it is due to the moss ball effect but will check again next week.
> 
> This week has added hornwort and water lily...


Updates:
Removed the plant that look like water lily as it seems to be dying off... I guess the environment is not suitable for it to sustain.

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## bravobb

Today filter wool before replacement. Not much improvement, but somehow i feel the water quality in the main tank look much better... (maybe just my illusion...  :Laughing: )

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## bettatail

plant enough and a good sump/filteration, here is the result:
less water change, the longest time this tank only require filling water but no water replacement, is 13 month.
eventually a water change has to be done, no matter how clean the water is, because the TDS build up due to vaporization, so I do water change when the TDS above 350.

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## bravobb

Outstanding !
Living example !!
My objective is only for 2-3 months... one year will be great but we take one step at a time...  :Smile: 
Nothing is impossible.... it is just a matter of time ! 
Oh... Mission Impossible 5 coming soon ??  :Laughing:

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## bravobb

I have a feeling my last compartment of the sump do not have enough nitrate to support any plants.. thus whatever plants i introduce do not seems to survive well. Only the moss balls seems to last quite well as least for now.
I wanted to test this setup in the 2nd compartment of the sump but lighting power cable not long enough.... guess i will need to get a power extension in order to go further.

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## jemswira

I think that Nitrates are dissolved in your water. Should be uniform levels of ntirate throughout.

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## bravobb

> I think that Nitrates are dissolved in your water. Should be uniform levels of ntirate throughout.


I guess i need to get Nitrate tester to have a better picture on what is happening.

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## bravobb

Did major changes on this prototype.... legs pain and whole body tired.... really old age catches up....

Trying to use HMF concept but horizontal.


Now uses 2 pieces of big wool instead of 4. 
If the water level too high, i will have to remove one layer of the Japan Mat.


Relocate prototype from last sump compartment to 2nd compartment.
Also change the 1st compartment filter wool from 4 pieces to 2 pieces and addition of black sponge.

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## bravobb

Added some big fern.... 

Look like need to remove one layer of the japan mat at first compartment..

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## bravobb

Yesterday shifted the black sponge to the 2nd compartment and make some adjustment to the plants arrangement... 
Need to get more plants.... seems to be quite empty with only a few plants.

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## bravobb

With more plants in the sump now, i have even try to use a 18W whitelight bulb for one day and this evening i realised my glass tank starts to get blur... signs of first stage of algae growing.... 
Since i do not clean my glass tank internal (except the top cover), i have replaced the bulb with a 11W whitelight.
Hope can prevent a algae broom....

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## bravobb

Furs alike has been seems in the tank wall of the sump compartment 3, 4, 5.
sump compartment 2 contains the hortwort plants. No visible furs like.
sump compartment 3 contains java fern, java moss and moss ball.
PH seems to be stable at 7 using tetra ph test solution.
Read the Diana first chapter recently and realised that healthy plants also help to neutralise ph. That is one plus point to maintain ph level.

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## stormhawk

Where your mat is concerned, only remove the top-most layer of fine filter wool, if that is what you normally use. Anything below it should remain where it is. Losing a few beneficial bacteria is not a big issue as long as the remainder of the filter material is not disturbed. What you have there in the first stage of the sump is basically a trickle filter utilising the wet/dry concept. Ensuring a proper water flow over all the layers is crucial for the long term survival of the bacteria. Perhaps you can use a perforated plastic grid with a smaller hole size. That way the water will drip over all the layers, or a simple rainbar attachment to the drain point with decent sized holes over the entire length of the sponge pad. That way water will be distributed over a wider area.

The presence of light in your sump section will encourage the growth of algae in crucial sectors and this might impede your water flow in many ways. For most part, some bacteria do not appreciate bright lighting, hence the reason why canister filters are typically quite dark in the base section. Replacing the plants in the sump sector with the algae scrubber method by SantaMonica should be much better in the long term. Reduced risk of the plants dying off in your sump and adding to the bioload and causing the pH to drop as they rot and release their stored chemicals back into the water column.

Problem with having plants in the sump is that you may inadvertently seed your sump tank with colonies of seed shrimp and other microscopic animals. Whether you like those animals or not, is another issue altogether. What you are trying to do is basically a refugium, but in this case for a freshwater tank. I think refugium is overkill for a freshwater tank but if you like it, don't stop it. Just ensure that there is proper water flow and the plant trays don't block the flow of water.

In my tank, I deal with nitrates by keeping a healthy cover of Pistia aka Water Lettuce. These nitrate sucking floating plants are excellent. Each time I remove a big plastic bag full, they regrow back to cover the whole surface within a week. Give it 2 weeks it will grow over each other.  :Laughing:

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## bravobb

> Where your mat is concerned, only remove the top-most layer of fine filter wool, if that is what you normally use. Anything below it should remain where it is. Losing a few beneficial bacteria is not a big issue as long as the remainder of the filter material is not disturbed. What you have there in the first stage of the sump is basically a trickle filter utilising the wet/dry concept. Ensuring a proper water flow over all the layers is crucial for the long term survival of the bacteria. Perhaps you can use a perforated plastic grid with a smaller hole size. That way the water will drip over all the layers, or a simple rainbar attachment to the drain point with decent sized holes over the entire length of the sponge pad. That way water will be distributed over a wider area.


Actually, there is a pipe rainbar if you notice closely.. i had it removed to allow me to take picture to show the filter wool.

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## bravobb

> The presence of light in your sump section will encourage the growth of algae in crucial sectors and this might impede your water flow in many ways. For most part, some bacteria do not appreciate bright lighting, hence the reason why canister filters are typically quite dark in the base section. Replacing the plants in the sump sector with the algae scrubber method by SantaMonica should be much better in the long term. Reduced risk of the plants dying off in your sump and adding to the bioload and causing the pH to drop as they rot and release their stored chemicals back into the water column.


Thanks for highlighting, this is still on experimental, and of course i would like it to be permanent but i think somewhere is still not right yet.
I have used black colour basket to cover as much of the biomedia in the sump so hoping to cover most of the lights from the bulb.
Plants dying off is a tough issue to handle as it will happens sooner or later. 
I am going to use API master kit to measure the water soon and post result here.

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## bravobb

> Problem with having plants in the sump is that you may inadvertently seed your sump tank with colonies of seed shrimp and other microscopic animals. Whether you like those animals or not, is another issue altogether. What you are trying to do is basically a refugium, but in this case for a freshwater tank. I think refugium is overkill for a freshwater tank but if you like it, don't stop it. Just ensure that there is proper water flow and the plant trays don't block the flow of water.
> 
> In my tank, I deal with nitrates by keeping a healthy cover of Pistia aka Water Lettuce. These nitrate sucking floating plants are excellent. Each time I remove a big plastic bag full, they regrow back to cover the whole surface within a week. Give it 2 weeks it will grow over each other.


You are very right, as i make changes and try to enhance the situation, i feel like it has become a refugium... except there is no sand used.
Most of the trays i used have plenty of holes underneath or at least at the sides to allow water flow.
Nothing is perfect here yet, thus my experiment will continue on.
After, as the fauna is plenty and precious, i will not do anything rush or have major changes even though i have some in mind.
Hope this experiment will benefits some and hope this experiment will open up new idea for better products to come in future.

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## stormhawk

It must have slipped my view, I did not notice your rain bar. In that case you don't have to do anything right now. Sometimes doing less is actually doing more.  :Wink:

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## bravobb

yup.. not doing anything at the moment.
thinking of getting some algae eaters to put in the sump...

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## bravobb

API Master test kit :-
Monthly water changed is only due next week, so i did a test to check before i do a water changed next week.
I am not very good in colours, so if i am not correct or you think it it something else, please highlight.

After waiting few minutes
PH 7
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 40ppm


After 20 minutes
PH 7
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm
Nitrate 40ppm


Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8WxCZETEJw

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## bravobb

Did a water changed, added salt and added more plants.
Will do another measurement tomorrow.

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## bravobb

After water changed done on the 27-01-13 and added salts and more plants... the test results does not seem to have much different.

The following results are carried out today.


PH should be around 7.6 (could be due to water changed)
Ammonia is still zero
Nitrite should be zero
Nitrate seems to be still around 40-80ppm... 
Is there no way to bring now the nitrate to zero ?


With flashlight

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## wongce

Bring down nitrate to 0? i am trying to bring it up... lol

You can try using faster growing plants / or do more frequent WC to bring it down.. :Smile:

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## bravobb

> Bring down nitrate to 0? i am trying to bring it up... lol
> 
> You can try using faster growing plants / or do more frequent WC to bring it down..


I do not think WC will help as i already did it few days back... (can't be doing it everyday or every hour.... this is not practical)
I guess you wanted more nitrate is for your plants ?
For me, this tank is mainly for fauna, the flora is just a helper and not the main cast, thus the need to bring drop the nitrate as much as possible.

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## milk_vanilla

You may try filter media like seachem matrix, that heard could filter your nitrate as well as nitrite and ammonia. Honestly i never use this and how effective it will, but i think its option you can consider.

My tank is planted tank, so i dose nitrate > 25 ppm a week, indeed i need nitrate.

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## bravobb

> You may try filter media like seachem matrix, that heard could filter your nitrate as well as nitrite and ammonia. Honestly i never use this and how effective it will, but i think its option you can consider.
> 
> My tank is planted tank, so i dose nitrate > 25 ppm a week, indeed i need nitrate.


I have seachem matrix in my Cichlids and ray tank... (If you see my prototype-IOUS... it also measured around 40ppm nitrate and that tank filter also has 2kg of seachem matrix....)

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## wongce

Nitrate does not dissappear. There might be some product to absorb them but if not mistaken you might end up spending more money changing them frequently.

For cheapest way to remove/reduce nitrate is
@Add more plants
@Do more wc
@Less bioload

My guess is your fish is generating a lot of waste?? E.g predator fish,gold fish,platys are poo-masters

Yup i am trying to bring it up as i need nutrients for my plants...haha 

You have a sump-full of plants right? Maybe its time to add more plant into it. If your tank has space,you can try some simple floating plants(might cover some light),but its better than wc every few days (back breaking)

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## bravobb

You are right, nitrate does not disappear.
If i remember correctly, according to Diana, plants prefer to take ammonia and nitrite.
Also, my biomedia produces nitrite from ammonia due to its nullify process, so most likely my plants will never take nitrate.

For your information, my sump have 5 compartments, only 3 compartments are suitable for plants, currently one compartment is almost full of plants.
another compartment with moss ball and java moss and christmas moss. There are still room for more plants but i need to monitor the plants health before i introduce more.

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## Tones

Cant ever get rid of nitrate completly in my tank

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