# Other Aquarium Forums > Equipment and Accessories > DIY Projects >  Request for Comments/Advise on Tank Setup

## craftsman

Hi everyone,
I'm coming into inheritance of a small study room (from a housing purchase), in which I intend to put some tanks. Have been scouring the forum and through various drawing iterations (The first of which began in this thread - http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=51636) 
In my first drawing, I envisaged a 3 tier 4 feet tank setup consisting of 13 partitioned tanks. I've since rethought my design as there are several cons.
1. 13 tanks with different water conditions;
2. 13 tanks to perform water change on;
3. Piping/Plumage to all 13 tanks!!!;
4. Filtration complexity.

So... I've decided to redraw my design. I've done the following so far:

1. 13 tanks, but sharing the same water;
2. 1 sump serving all 13 tanks;
3. top tier tank flows down to middle tier, and middle tier flows down to bottom tier, which then flows down to the sump;

Now, my questions:
1. How should I design my water change? I will still plumb a drainage pipe and tap right to the tank area.
2. Should I still have a holding tank for aged water? 

Heres the drawing below. Appreciate your thoughts.  :Smile:  :Grin:  :Grin:

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## StanChung

The system looks ok. I suggest a UV steriliser on the return from the pump.
As for the aged water, it should be another tank on top for the piped water to come in via float ball with a hole in the tank + tap to flow into the tank below it. An air stone in the holding tank to degas chlorine is recommended.
Drainage would naturally be plumbed to the sump tank via overflow and or tap.
With the in tap you can create continuous overflow system and is fairly maintenance free.

The downside of have this all in one is that whatever pest you introduce into one tank will filter into all the tanks.

Just note is that the overflow pipe position of the middle tank in the drawing should swap position so less piping is needed. No need to make long elbow.

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## Shadow

> The downside of have this all in one is that whatever pest you introduce into one tank will filter into all the tanks.


UV should kill it right?

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## RonWill

Hey Paul,
I must thank you for letting me laugh my head off because your drawing brought back so much memories!

This was how the setup looked like before I brought it home and look what I did to it.




> In my first drawing, I envisaged a 3 tier 4 feet tank setup consisting of 13 partitioned tanks. I've since rethought my design as there are several cons.
> 1. 13 tanks with different water conditions;
> 2. 13 tanks to perform water change on;
> 3. Piping/Plumage to all 13 tanks!!!;
> 4. Filtration complexity


There are advantages...
1. Different water condition allows you to keep fishes needing different requirement.
2. If you have a flow-through on an individual tank basis, you can semi-automate water changing.
3. Can be easily solved with 3 sets of manifold; incoming water, discharge water and air.




> 1. 13 tanks, but sharing the same water;
> 2. 1 sump serving all 13 tanks;
> 3. top tier tank flows down to middle tier, and middle tier flows down to bottom tier, which then flows down to the sump


There are equally many cons as there are pros;
1. Same water = same infected water.
2. Pump in sump must never be allowed to run dry (unless otherwise designed). Size of sump must be adequate to hold drain-offs from all your 3 main tanks during power outage.
3. Same as my old setup and you won't regret having those holes pre-drilled. Middle tank, shift down-pipe to the left instead.

Your questions, my thoughts....
_1. How should I design my water change? I will still plumb a drainage pipe and tap right to the tank area._
Plumbing to and from your tank area is a must and frankly, I lost count of the times wishing that I did BUT whatever you do, don't have them concealed under the floor tiles because condensation from the buried pipes will cause water stains and unsightly cracks to your downstair neighbour's ceiling. Locate the plumbing higher up, eg. near the ceiling (I'm sure you'll be able to find clever ways to hide the pipes). Likewise for the drainage which can be pump out with an external or submersible powerhead.

_2. Should I still have a holding tank for aged water?_
Small setups don't have that luxury but you should be mindful of chloramine that's dosed into our mains. Rig up activated-carbon modules, plus anti-chloramine treatment, if doing large water changes. [PS: I won't be drawn into debates regarding their use or effectiveness]

As per your last drawing, it isn't necessary to have horizontal pipes to change the flow... just swap tank position (effectively changing your drain pipe from the right side to the left). Save those pipes for other purposes.

I cannot refute Stan's recommendation to use UV sterilization but please note that effectiveness is governed by the power of the UV radiation, exposure time and flow of water through the UV units. [time for you to google more]

Whatever you do, be very very afraid of tanklet addiction. [urm... yes, that's my corridor... your turn to laugh... :Grin:  :Grin: ]

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## craftsman

> The system looks ok. I suggest a UV steriliser on the return from the pump.
> As for the aged water, it should be another tank on top for the piped water to come in via float ball with a hole in the tank + tap to flow into the tank below it. An air stone in the holding tank to degas chlorine is recommended.
> Drainage would naturally be plumbed to the sump tank via overflow and or tap.
> With the in tap you can create continuous overflow system and is fairly maintenance free.
> 
> The downside of have this all in one is that whatever pest you introduce into one tank will filter into all the tanks.
> 
> Just note is that the overflow pipe position of the middle tank in the drawing should swap position so less piping is needed. No need to make long elbow.


Thanks Stan for your thoughts. Good advice which I'll definitely take into consideration. Yes, I've also considered the possibility of an epidemic, infact this was the primary reason why I started out wanting a completely separated design. But in the whole scheme of things, I figure that I can live with the risk.  :Smile:  I have some amendments to the overflow system, which I will address together with my reply to Ronnie.  :Grin:

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## craftsman

> Hey Paul,
> I must thank you for letting me laugh my head off because your drawing brought back so much memories!


I'm very much aware that I'm threading where you and others have threaded before. I'm very thankful for all of your patience in guiding me, but yet not telling me everything so that your comments don't destroy the journey of discovery for me.  :Grin:  I'm glad it brings back some memories. Good ones I hope.




> This was how the setup looked like before I brought it home and look what I did to it.


 :Shocked:  :Shocked:  :Shocked:  My goodness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 




> There are advantages...
> 1. Different water condition allows you to keep fishes needing different requirement.
> 2. If you have a flow-through on an individual tank basis, you can semi-automate water changing.
> 3. Can be easily solved with 3 sets of manifold; incoming water, discharge water and air.
> 
> 
> There are equally many cons as there are pros;
> 1. Same water = same infected water.
> 2. Pump in sump must never be allowed to run dry (unless otherwise designed). Size of sump must be adequate to hold drain-offs from all your 3 main tanks during power outage.
> 3. Same as my old setup and you won't regret having those holes pre-drilled. Middle tank, shift down-pipe to the left instead.


Now you've gone and confuse me again!!!  :Blah: 




> Your questions, my thoughts....
> _1. How should I design my water change? I will still plumb a drainage pipe and tap right to the tank area._
> Plumbing to and from your tank area is a must and frankly, I lost count of the times wishing that I did BUT whatever you do, don't have them concealed under the floor tiles because condensation from the buried pipes will cause water stains and unsightly cracks to your downstair neighbour's ceiling. Locate the plumbing higher up, eg. near the ceiling (I'm sure you'll be able to find clever ways to hide the pipes). Likewise for the drainage which can be pump out with an external or submersible powerhead.


Another excellent advice!!! Thanks for letting me know. I don't want to get into trouble with my new neighbors!!




> _2. Should I still have a holding tank for aged water?_
> Small setups don't have that luxury but you should be mindful of chloramine that's dosed into our mains. Rig up activated-carbon modules, plus anti-chloramine treatment, if doing large water changes. [PS: I won't be drawn into debates regarding their use or effectiveness]
> 
> As per your last drawing, it isn't necessary to have horizontal pipes to change the flow... just swap tank position (effectively changing your drain pipe from the right side to the left). Save those pipes for other purposes.


Yes. Noted. Same as Stan's advice. I happen to chance on an excellent overflow pipe design, which I think will save me the trouble of drilling the tanks. 
I'll do similar overflow pipes (with skimmer & a much better version of my inital double "U" or "J" pipes) for each tank, which will flow down to the tank directly below it. Any thoughts on whether this is better than drilling the tanks? or vice versa? 

Drainage of water to be done on the middle tier tank, while new water is discharged to the sump which will then re-distribute it to all tanks.




> I cannot refute Stan's recommendation to use UV sterilization but please note that effectiveness is governed by the power of the UV radiation, exposure time and flow of water through the UV units. [time for you to google more]
> 
> Whatever you do, be very very afraid of tanklet addiction. [urm... yes, that's my corridor... your turn to laugh...]


I'll leave the UV sterilization to the last bit. I think its easily done as you suggested by googling and finding out more. I'm more concerned about the management of water, water change, drainage, etc at this initial stage.  :Grin:  And yes... I wish I was your neighbor!!!! :Razz:  I'm sure they must have on many occasions hung around your corridor just to look at your fishes!

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## Viper007

> I'll leave the UV sterilization to the last bit. I think its easily done as you suggested by googling and finding out more. I'm more concerned about the management of water, water change, drainage, etc at this initial stage.  And yes... I wish I was your neighbor!!!! I'm sure they must have on many occasions hung around your corridor just to look at your fishes!


I've just got my new UV sterilization... C&G!!

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## craftsman

> I've just got my new UV sterilization... C&G!!


Congratulations Viper!  :Jump for joy:

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## CK Yeo

> Whatever you do, be very very afraid of tanklet addiction. [urm... yes, that's my corridor... your turn to laugh...]


Wow Ronnie, I have never seen your corridor so tidy before. Where are all the plastic food containers and your planted tank??

Paul, you should know that the possibility of flooding is very real and take all precautions to prevent it.
e.g. Fish (dead or alive) or plant stuck in any of the overflow = flood. Leaks in the bulk heads = flood. Sump not big enough = flood when power fails.

Theoratically, the last tank in the lower tier will have the worst water quality because it has gathered the bad stuff from the tanks before it. Consider the overflow from the tanks to go directly to the sump instead. But that will mean your supply to the tanks will have to split into 3. This has added advantage that in case you want to isolate one tier because of disease or whatever, it is possible.

How you partition the tanks is also tricky actually. e.g. If your Apisto spawns, how are you going to keep the fries from going the the adjacent tank? Consider under flow systems too. Or you can ask Ronnie about his Killies hotel.

Regarding the UV issue, it really depends how hardcore you want to be. Disease in the system is a real pain and hard to eradicate.

Water change: If you can use direct tap water, float valve to fill, of course. If not, still float valve but in a water storage reservoir with treatments, air blah blah blah. If you put this on the 4th tier (if possible of course), then you can have aged water on the tap. If not, then have to use pump.

ck

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## craftsman

> Paul, you should know that the possibility of flooding is very real and take all precautions to prevent it.
> e.g. Fish (dead or alive) or plant stuck in any of the overflow = flood. Leaks in the bulk heads = flood. Sump not big enough = flood when power fails.


CK, thanks for the advice, although this thing about flooding is making me really nervous.  :Opps: 




> Theoratically, the last tank in the lower tier will have the worst water quality because it has gathered the bad stuff from the tanks before it. Consider the overflow from the tanks to go directly to the sump instead. But that will mean your supply to the tanks will have to split into 3. This has added advantage that in case you want to isolate one tier because of disease or whatever, it is possible.


Thats an extremely good option!!! I wonder if the sump needs to be deeper and longer to accomodate a larger flow of water as well as to accommodate for power trips.




> How you partition the tanks is also tricky actually. e.g. If your Apisto spawns, how are you going to keep the fries from going the the adjacent tank? Consider under flow systems too. Or you can ask Ronnie about his Killies hotel.


I saw some of Ronnie's pictures on his "3M" like mats at the bottom of the tank to prevent partition migration by fries.  :Grin: 




> Regarding the UV issue, it really depends how hardcore you want to be. Disease in the system is a real pain and hard to eradicate.
> 
> Water change: If you can use direct tap water, float valve to fill, of course. If not, still float valve but in a water storage reservoir with treatments, air blah blah blah. If you put this on the 4th tier (if possible of course), then you can have aged water on the tap. If not, then have to use pump.
> 
> ck


I'll likely put a water storage on the 4th tier as you suggest. Easiest way to resolve water change. Either that, or a RO/DI drip system. I'm still trying to gather information on that. Do you know the pros/cons of such a system?

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## RonWill

> I'm very thankful for all of your patience in guiding me, but yet not telling me everything so that your comments don't destroy the journey of discovery for me


 Paul, you are very welcomed. Starting out from scratch can be a daunting task, cast with doubts and many misfortunes along the way. I'm sharing my mistakes so you don't have to repeat them. Then again, I won't spoon feed.

"Now you've gone and confuse me again!!!"
No... seriously. If I had the chance to do it all over again *shiver with fright*, I'll have the tanks permanently partitioned as per your original drawing, with a combination of differently sized tanks. I would want to have all 3 manifolds and individual drain at each tanks because all it takes is *ONE* major outbreak of disease to lose everything (been there, done that and bought the damn t-shirt). Often, when fishes start bellying up, it's a case of 'too little too late', regardless of what remedies or damage control you apply.

"I'll do similar overflow pipes (with skimmer & a much better version of my inital double "U" or "J" pipes) for each tank, which will flow down to the tank directly below it. Any thoughts on whether this is better than drilling the tanks? or vice versa?"
Show me what you have in mind. 

"I'm sure they must have on many occasions hung around your corridor just to look at your fishes!"
Yes, it draws a fair bit of attention but I was more wary of friends helping themselves with my nets!  :Laughing: 




> Wow Ronnie, I have never seen your corridor so tidy before


 eh friend, now I know you're mocking me!  :Evil:  but but... those pics were taken almost 5 years ago. I can only imagine your reaction when you see the DIY'ed aviary that replaced the 4ft tanks.....  :Shocked:  :Blah:  [dropping by for kopi anytime soon??]

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## StanChung

Robert, UV may not kill it unless you can match the flow rate with UV power intensity. UV IMO is only used to reduce chance of outbreak.

Hi Ronnie,

I do think the multi tank corridor is a bit much but then again crazy hobbyists like us like to test the limit.  :Grin:   :Laughing: 




> If I had the chance to do it all over again *shiver with fright*, I'll have the tanks permanently partitioned as per your original drawing, with a combination of differently sized tanks. I would want to have all 3 manifolds and individual drain at each tanks because all it takes is *ONE* major outbreak of disease to lose everything (been there, done that and bought the damn t-shirt). Often, when fishes start bellying up, it's a case of 'too little too late', regardless of what remedies or damage control you apply.


Well said. I think disease control is under estimated by most hobbyists. Most don't even have a quarantine tank. I think for killies that come from all over the world you may also get their carried pathogen. The fella may have resistance to their local pathogen but most likely not all the different ones from all over the world. I have experience with discus that are just from different farms in Malaysia. They get sick so rapidly it's just called the "discus plague". Luckily discus are quite strong and do allow you time to treat them but I think for small fishes it's just going to be extra hard.

I do cringe at LFS that have cramped spaces and seeing dead fishes in their tanks that share water. Most of the time I have to stand there for a long time, look for more symptoms and decide to buy or not to buy. Kind of lengthy process as my brain is already fired up to get that new species that just came in!  :Exasperated: 


Paul,
Personally I with small tanks it's quite a pain to create 13 different types of water for 13 different fishes. I do agree the bottom rack theoretically would have the poorest water quality especially after feeding time if you choose to chain them in series.

If your have the resources to go hi-tech, you can add solenoids to do auto WC when you're away. Meaning a valve with solenoid programmed to open for 15 minutes everyday to bleed water from the sump so that new water can fill the gap. This can be a hole drilled into the sump tank side with a rotatable PVC elbow to set the desired amount to be bled daily to reduce nitrate buildup.

-----

I created a simple overflow system without the sump. Each tier had their own pump+overhead filter bulkhead. [You can opt for the side bulkhead filter like how it's done in Polyart with the mesh and gravel as described and used by Ronnie.] I prefer to have the overhead filter bulkhead as I can remove it to the bathroom to clean it without messing up the floor. I can also opt to use only air driven sponge filters if it's for fries.

As for divider of the manifold, I think it's better to have non see through material. This is because breeding fishes would be distracted by other fish in other tank. I use some cheap 'bathroom' glass.['Nako' glass]  :Evil:  

The piping manifold is hidden behind the rack column. Each tier had it's own tap and a hole drilled in tank for an overflow. The tap is let to drip clean water from the storage tank above.

This is a 'sumpless' system. Great if you intend for some cabinet storage space at the bottom or just more tanks.  :Blah:   :Grin:

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## craftsman

> No... seriously. If I had the chance to do it all over again *shiver with fright*, I'll have the tanks permanently partitioned as per your original drawing, with a combination of differently sized tanks. I would want to have all 3 manifolds and individual drain at each tanks because all it takes is *ONE* major outbreak of disease to lose everything (been there, done that and bought the damn t-shirt). Often, when fishes start bellying up, it's a case of 'too little too late', regardless of what remedies or damage control you apply.
> 
> "I'll do similar overflow pipes (with skimmer & a much better version of my inital double "U" or "J" pipes) for each tank, which will flow down to the tank directly below it. Any thoughts on whether this is better than drilling the tanks? or vice versa?"
> Show me what you have in mind.


Hi Ronnie, I intend to partition up the tanks as per my original drawing. Just didn't draw the partitions as I didn't want to clog up the drawing.  :Smile: 

The only things I'm mulling over now (with the suggestions you, Stan and CK are throwing up) are:

1. Filtration (Sump or overhead filter or canister or sponge) - I'm leaning towards a simple overhead filter as Stan suggested
2. Tiered filtration or shared filtration - I'm leaning towards tiered filtration after Stan's suggestions
3. Drilled holes in tank with bulkheads or DIY overflow system - I'm leaning towards DIY overflow system as shown below
4. Water change (drip system - how do I resolve the chlorine/chloramine issue; or storage tank with aged water) I'm kinda leaning towards storage tank


I've also pretty much decided the following:
1. 13 individually partitioned tanks (Kinda like how you've done yours, Ronnie, with gaps under each partition, mesh and pebbles)

Ronnie, the double "U" PVC pipes, I think is perfected in the following drawing which I pillaged from another forum (discussion thread back in 2004. I hope this will no longer infringe copyrights.  :Embarassed: )


Schematics are as follows:


I like this design as it maintains the siphon even if power is cut, and it doesn't look half bad! I'm very keen to use this rather than drilling the tanks.

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## craftsman

> If your have the resources to go hi-tech, you can add solenoids to do auto WC when you're away. Meaning a valve with solenoid programmed to open for 15 minutes everyday to bleed water from the sump so that new water can fill the gap. This can be a hole drilled into the sump tank side with a rotatable PVC elbow to set the desired amount to be bled daily to reduce nitrate buildup.


Stan, have thought of this (like the Tubby system) early on, but decided not to do this yet. Presumably, a drip system with accompanying overflow drainage would achieve the same result? If I can place a aged water storage at the 4th tier as you suggested, drip the water into the tanks below, and provide the overflow drainage, then I can achieve automated water change as well.  :Grin: 




> I created a simple overflow system without the sump. Each tier had their own pump+overhead filter bulkhead. [You can opt for the side bulkhead filter like how it's done in Polyart with the mesh and gravel as described and used by Ronnie.] I prefer to have the overhead filter bulkhead as I can remove it to the bathroom to clean it without messing up the floor. I can also opt to use only air driven sponge filters if it's for fries.


 I like your suggestion of an overhead filter! Wonder why I didn't think of that. Hmm.. maybe too seduced by sumps. I also like the Polyart side bulkhead you mentioned.  :Grin:  Maybe tiem to pop by to take a closer look. Hee...




> As for divider of the manifold, I think it's better to have non see through material. This is because breeding fishes would be distracted by other fish in other tank. I use some cheap 'bathroom' glass.['Nako' glass]  
> 
> The piping manifold is hidden behind the rack column. Each tier had it's own tap and a hole drilled in tank for an overflow. The tap is let to drip clean water from the storage tank above.
> 
> This is a 'sumpless' system. Great if you intend for some cabinet storage space at the bottom or just more tanks.


Great advice!!! Will incorporate these to further refinements. Thanks Stan!

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## RonWill

> I've also pretty much decided the following:
> 1. 13 individually partitioned tanks (Kinda like how you've done yours, Ronnie, with gaps under each partition, mesh and pebbles)


 In that case, opt for individual filtration at each tier. Drainage can be centralized via manifold.




> Ronnie, the double "U" PVC pipes, I think is perfected in the following drawing which I pillaged from another forum


 Nope, it's far from perfect (ask me how I know  :Grin: ). The first picture has the air-intake tube dangerously low. I would have prefered it much higher as in the second diagram. With this design (large PVC tube over a smaller one), I already know what's gonna happen, so I'd suggest you make a prototype before implementing it throughout the setup.

Speaking of manifolds, I have one that's tied to the stair landing. It has provision for the Hi-blow pump mentioned previously, air-valves installed and catered for 4ft tanks. Cut, adjust and splint as necessary, with rubber hose since my tanks were only 10inches high (setup was from an ex-discus breeder). I'll take a pic of it later and it's yours to self collect. Don't have need for it in the foreseeable future since my soul mate isn't too crazy about me getting my fingers wet again while fiddling with feathers and toilet-training an adopted pooch.

BTW, I've not been to any LFS for a long time, so what is this "Polyart side bulkhead"? If you're thinking of OHFs, why not incorporate a "Henri deBruyn mini wet/dry filters"? Keeps your water cooler and even higher oxygenation! (trust me to make thing more complicated  :Blah: )




> I created a simple overflow system without the sump. Each tier had their own pump+overhead filter bulkhead. [You can opt for the side bulkhead filter like how it's done in Polyart with the mesh and gravel as described and used by Ronnie.] I prefer to have the overhead filter bulkhead as I can remove it to the bathroom to clean it without messing up the floor. I can also opt to use only air driven sponge filters if it's for fries


 Stan, I'm not synchronized with your thoughts. Please elaborate further. BTW, testing the limits is one thing. Going off the cliff is another!  :Knockout:

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## craftsman

> In that case, opt for individual filtration at each tier. Drainage can be centralized via manifold.


 :Grin:  Great!!! one more tick in my confirmed list.




> Nope, it's far from perfect (ask me how I know ). The first picture has the air-intake tube dangerously low. I would have prefered it much higher as in the second diagram. With this design (large PVC tube over a smaller one), I already know what's gonna happen, so I'd suggest you make a prototype before implementing it throughout the setup.


ok Ronnie.... I'll make your day!  :Grin:  :Grin:  How do you know? Just a wild guess.. do you think the large PVC over small PVC will result eventually in clogs, and as a result (according to CK's formula) would mean floods and more floods!  :Shocked: 




> Speaking of manifolds, I have one that's tied to the stair landing. It has provision for the Hi-blow pump mentioned previously, air-valves installed and catered for 4ft tanks. Cut, adjust and splint as necessary, with rubber hose since my tanks were only 10inches high (setup was from an ex-discus breeder). I'll take a pic of it later and it's yours to self collect. Don't have need for it in the foreseeable future since my soul mate isn't too crazy about me getting my fingers wet again while fiddling with feathers and toilet-training an adopted pooch.


Wow! I was kinda waiting for an invite.  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:  Thanks in advanced Ronnie. PM me your address, and I'll arrange a convenient time with you to pick it up. I'll probably need a little more tutelage as to the Hi-blow pump, and many other things which you mentioned, which would probably make more sense to me if I see it in person.  :Smile: 




> BTW, I've not been to any LFS for a long time, so what is this "Polyart side bulkhead"? If you're thinking of OHFs, why not incorporate a "Henri deBruyn mini wet/dry filters"? Keeps your water cooler and even higher oxygenation! (trust me to make thing more complicated )


Will try and sneak a couple of photos when I'm there next. Will be pretty busy over the next couple of days though.

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## craftsman

ok. Let me list down the list of confirmed designs and aspect of the design I'm still considering.

*Firmed*
1. 13 individually partitioned tanks with underflow gaps
2. Individual filtration for each tier
3. PVC overflow pipes for drainage
4. Drip system via aged water tank on 4th tier
5. plumbed drainage and water supply 

*Still to be Firmed*
1. Overhead filter or Cannister filter or a side bulkhead to contain the media?

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## RonWill

Paul, that design has to so with the siphon rate, small volume in the outer pipe, drain surge and gargle gargle gargle. To elaborate more is to spoil the fun of discovery!  :Blah: 

Also, please do not raise your expectations. I have drastically scaled down on fish-keeping and was almost out of the hobby. The 4ft setups were either sold/given/thrown away while the remnant 2ft tanks are nothing to gawk about. I won't blame you if you left wondering, "how can someone with nothing talk so much?"

Anyway, here's a pic of the air manifold and since the segment of piping that connects to the Hiblow is obscured by the plants, here's how it looks like (ignore the aluminum poles).

Oh, no photo taking please. Things are in a mess and I don't want to spoil CK's last good impression of "a neat & tidy corridor". Will PM you later. I just got back from work and desperately need the shut-eye.

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## craftsman

> Paul, that design has to so with the siphon rate, small volume in the outer pipe, drain surge and gargle gargle gargle. To elaborate more is to spoil the fun of discovery! 
> 
> Also, please do not raise your expectations. I have drastically scaled down on fish-keeping and was almost out of the hobby. The 4ft setups were either sold/given/thrown away while the remnant 2ft tanks are nothing to gawk about. I won't blame you if you left wondering, "how can someone with nothing talk so much?"


You've been there, done it lah....  :Grin:  No snide remarks.. I promise. *chuckle*




> Anyway, here's a pic of the air manifold and since the segment of piping that connects to the Hiblow is obscured by the plants, here's how it looks like (ignore the aluminum poles).


This is great!!!! Hmm... this will allow me to put a sponge filter or an air stone in every tank.  :Well done:  :Jump for joy:  :Jump for joy: 




> Oh, no photo taking please. Things are in a mess and I don't want to spoil CK's last good impression of "a neat & tidy corridor". Will PM you later. I just got back from work and desperately need the shut-eye.


Dang!

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## CK Yeo

> 1. 13 individually partitioned tanks with underflow gaps


Er. Ronnie/polyart was/is using gravel. If you intend to use ADA soil and such for apisto, it will breakdown, clog the gap/filter floss = flood.




> 5. plumbed drainage and water supply


If you could use a solenoid or drip from the water reservoir and overflow to drain, you essentially do not need to do any water changes or recycle the water or need complicated filter system at all, Sponge filter is good enough to maintain water movement and quality. If you go to the extend of adding an overflow to each tank, then you have an added advantage that you isolate each tank. Otherwise, if you only have one overflow per tier, you will still need to share water among the tanks.

Dripping with individual overflow will also allow the flexibility of implementing a modular system; i.e. instead of partition one big tank, you can use many smaller tanks, move them around, have different water level, cheap enough to replace them when scratched and most important to me is that smaller tanks have thinner glass which minimize distortion when viewing and taking pictures. etc. 

ck

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## craftsman

> Er. Ronnie/polyart was/is using gravel. If you intend to use ADA soil and such for apisto, it will breakdown, clog the gap/filter floss = flood.


Ck, I'm not going to use ADA soil. might just use inert gravel or pebbles, or if its possible, avoid substrates altogether. 




> If you could use a solenoid or drip from the water reservoir and overflow to drain, you essentially do not need to do any water changes or recycle the water or need complicated filter system at all, Sponge filter is good enough to maintain water movement and quality. If you go to the extend of adding an overflow to each tank, then you have an added advantage that you isolate each tank. Otherwise, if you only have one overflow per tier, you will still need to share water among the tanks.
> 
> Dripping with individual overflow will also allow the flexibility of implementing a modular system; i.e. instead of partition one big tank, you can use many smaller tanks, move them around, have different water level, cheap enough to replace them when scratched and most important to me is that smaller tanks have thinner glass which minimize distortion when viewing and taking pictures. etc. 
> 
> ck


Yes. I'm intending to have an aged water tank on the top tier, and have it drip continuously to the tanks below. The water tank will have a float switch to keep it constantly topped up.
The partitioned tanks (or smaller modular tanks) will all have PVC overflow pipes direct to drainage. Yes, I'm heading in the same direction as you have described. Basically, an almost effort free (water change) setup. Just need to add the anti-chlorine and chloramine.  :Grin:

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## Viper007

> This is great!!!! Hmm... this will allow me to put a sponge filter or an air stone in every tank. Dang!


I can't wait to see the finish product at you place!!!!  :Jump for joy:

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## craftsman

You'll have to wait a few months mate. 

1. I have not finalise the house contract yet/renovation/etc
2. I'm taking on a new job in Feb
3. Have not sourced the materials yet

So... as I said earlier, this project is going to take a few months to put together.  :Smile:  and I'm gonna savour every moment I put into it. Will show the final drawing to the kids and ask them to help me.  :Very Happy:

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## StanChung

> BTW, I've not been to any LFS for a long time, so what is this "Polyart side bulkhead"? If you're thinking of OHFs, why not incorporate a "Henri deBruyn mini wet/dry filters"? Keeps your water cooler and even higher oxygenation! (trust me to make thing more complicated )
> 
> Stan, I'm not synchronized with your thoughts. Please elaborate further. BTW, testing the limits is one thing. Going off the cliff is another!


Hi Ronnie,
The side 'bulkhead' filter is I think is called an IOS filter. Proof I'm from another planet.  :Laughing:  Pardon me as I'm the lost for words posting so early in the morning.  :Embarassed:  

I think you qualify as super crazy hobbyist. :Grin:  I'm getting there, wait for me.  :Laughing: 

Hi Paul,
If you are just dripping, the incoming water from your storage tank[air stone degassing chloramine] would not adversely affect your fishes. [test to be sure!]

The larger the storage tank the better. Target for 1:1 , storage water volume:livestock water volume.

Add a few drops of Seachem Prime if you intend to do a fortnightly/monthly large WC + scrub down of the stocked tanks.

Have fun... :Grin:

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## craftsman

> Hi Paul,
> If you are just dripping, the incoming water from your storage tank[air stone degassing chloramine] would not adversely affect your fishes. [test to be sure!]


Stan, please correct me if I'm wrong. Chlorine evaporates, Chloramine doesn't. Our tap water contains both right? Would an airstone solve the issue of chloramine?  :Shocked:  If so, then this is fabulous!!!

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## StanChung

Hi Paul,
Chloramine breaks up with vigorous aeration. Chlorine is expelled and the little ammonia in the water would be gobbled up by your filter bacteria.

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## craftsman

Wow!!! I learnt something new today Stan!!! :Shocked:  :Grin:  :Grin:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  Yeah!!! Now I can do without buying anymore anti-chlorine/chloramine liquids! Now I'll definitely get the storage tank to age and aerate the water.  :Grin:

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## StanChung

Hi Paul,
I use very little anti chlorine except when doing heavy water changes and my storage water runs out. I still keep some around like Seachem Prime and Kordon Amquel for emergency use. 
I also have those cheap sodium thiosulphate crystals to neutralise bleach, potassium permanganate and other disinfectants/chemicals.

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## RonWill

> The side 'bulkhead' filter is I think is called an IOS filter. Proof I'm from another planet.  Pardon me as I'm the lost for words posting so early in the morning


 Alamak... Stan, I would have understood it perfectly if you said IOS in the first place! Always have a cuppa strong brew before posting (I just had mine).
PS: I'm back in the land of the sane. Jumped off that cliff moons ago *looks up and wonder when Stan's taking the leap*  :Laughing: 

But jokes aside, I beckon that those who have misconceptions about Chloramine and Chlorine, to please read up more on the subject. Your mains is served by waterworks in KL or it's general vicinity but in SG, it's already known that Chloramine was introduced much much earlier at PUB waterworks.

While Chlorine can dissipate with vigorous aeration, the half-life of untreated Chloramine is *six months*. Again, our waterworks across borders are different but don't take my words for it. Do yourself justice by trawling the facts and give your fishes what they deserve.

One of our killie old-timer mentioned, in a friendly argument, that prolonged exposure to Chloramine in low (non-lethal) dose can result in fish sterility. I personally used to run water through a four-module rig, in reduced flow-rate, with two sediment and two activated carbon cartridges. Call me kiasu, but that's me.

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## CK Yeo

> Just need to add the anti-chlorine and chloramine.


Oh. That one can automate too.
You just need a peristaltic pump, set on timer. 
http://reefdepot.com.sg/Products.asp...38&BrandID=All

Then again, depending on your drip rate and area, you might be able to get away with no addition of chemicals.

ck

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## craftsman

> Oh. That one can automate too.
> You just need a peristaltic pump, set on timer. 
> http://reefdepot.com.sg/Products.asp...38&BrandID=All
> 
> Then again, depending on your drip rate and area, you might be able to get away with no addition of chemicals.
> 
> ck


Wah CK.... I hesitate to go there....  :Opps:  I must at least do something right?  :Grin:

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## craftsman

> Alamak... Stan, I would have understood it perfectly if you said IOS in the first place! Always have a cuppa strong brew before posting (I just had mine).
> PS: I'm back in the land of the sane. Jumped off that cliff moons ago *looks up and wonder when Stan's taking the leap* 
> 
> But jokes aside, I beckon that those who have misconceptions about Chloramine and Chlorine, to please read up more on the subject. Your mains is served by waterworks in KL or it's general vicinity but in SG, it's already known that Chloramine was introduced much much earlier at PUB waterworks.
> 
> While Chlorine can dissipate with vigorous aeration, the half-life of untreated Chloramine is *six months*. Again, our waterworks across borders are different but don't take my words for it. Do yourself justice by trawling the facts and give your fishes what they deserve.
> 
> One of our killie old-timer mentioned, in a friendly argument, that prolonged exposure to Chloramine in low (non-lethal) dose can result in fish sterility. I personally used to run water through a four-module rig, in reduced flow-rate, with two sediment and two activated carbon cartridges. Call me kiasu, but that's me.


Thats what I thought Ronnie... Guess I have to add the "anti-agents" then.  :Smile:

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## craftsman

Ok blokes... this is my draft of the final design....

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## StanChung

> Alamak... Stan, I would have understood it perfectly if you said IOS in the first place! Always have a cuppa strong brew before posting (I just had mine).
> PS: I'm back in the land of the sane. Jumped off that cliff moons ago *looks up and wonder when Stan's taking the leap* 
> 
> But jokes aside, I beckon that those who have misconceptions about Chloramine and Chlorine, to please read up more on the subject. Your mains is served by waterworks in KL or it's general vicinity but in SG, it's already known that Chloramine was introduced much much earlier at PUB waterworks.
> 
> While Chlorine can dissipate with vigorous aeration, the half-life of untreated Chloramine is *six months*. Again, our waterworks across borders are different but don't take my words for it. Do yourself justice by trawling the facts and give your fishes what they deserve.
> 
> One of our killie old-timer mentioned, in a friendly argument, that prolonged exposure to Chloramine in low (non-lethal) dose can result in fish sterility. I personally used to run water through a four-module rig, in reduced flow-rate, with two sediment and two activated carbon cartridges. Call me kiasu, but that's me.


Hi Ronnie,
Ok, after my cuppa-  :Grin:  Sorry because I only always talk with local guys and hardly ever use the term 'IOS filter' although I know what it is.  :Grin: 

---

Chloramine was indeed added in Sg for a few years already and at the same time the discus farms in Singapore that relied heavily on WC after heavy feeding were the first to suffer high casualties. I spoke to two farms and they saw the fish literally 'peeled skin' in an hour after WC.  :Shocked: 
The response from their complaint to the PUB is that the well being of humans more important than fish. Fair enough.  :Razz:  
I think it was about the same time Erect moss started browning en masse in Singapore. I heard more rumours about not just Chloramine being added but these are just word of mouth so I'm not in a position to comment.

As for Malaysia, there's many different water authorities that is broken into the differing states/sources, so each would have their own 'recipe'.
As hobbyists we are also taking precaution by adding carbon filtration as the authorities have once in awhile decide to pump in chloramine or increase the chlorine dose once awhile I believe. Especially when the source water is more turbid/contaminated than usual.  :Razz:  I tried to find information about our own water supply and it's supposedly state secret.  :Exasperated:  I hope they're putting in some anti depressant in the water. :Grin:  I think it would be easy for me to take my cue from the discus farms as most of them do more than 100% WC a day. Most only use simple Sodium Thiosulphate + aeration while some do use carbon cartridge filters.

I'm also thinking of adding one of those carbon filters. Most people recommend double in series, I will add it to the link just before it goes into the WC storage tank but not for the whole house as I believe some chlorine in the water is good to keep the pathogen level low.

As for my level of 'xiaoness' I think can safely say already quite high. More than 3000 litres of 'live water'.  :Evil:   :Laughing: 

Hi Paul, please excuse our topic diversion but I hope it's still relevant to your design.  :Razz: 
My comment is that your 'stand pipes' should be separate and drain into a separate PVC pipe. This is incase you need to restart an air locked one you can do so without dismantling the whole piece. 
I think it's probably easier to get a hole drilled into the side of the tank.  :Smile:

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## craftsman

> Hi Paul, please excuse our topic diversion but I hope it's still relevant to your design.


No problems Stan, I enjoy the banter, and I'm definitely learning from the two of you gurus.  :Smile: 




> My comment is that your 'stand pipes' should be separate and drain into a separate PVC pipe. This is incase you need to restart an air locked one you can do so without dismantling the whole piece. 
> I think it's probably easier to get a hole drilled into the side of the tank.


Good advice Stan. Although its gonna look really cluttered!  :Crying:

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## craftsman

> Will try and sneak a couple of photos when I'm there next. Will be pretty busy over the next couple of days though.


Ronnie/Stan, was at the LFS in question just now over lunch break, and sneaked a couple of pics of their IOS setup (Side bulkhead). Apologies over the quality of pics, cos its from my lousy iphone.  :Razz: 

Drainage (un-used)


Side IOS. 3 tier setup. Water flows down from top tank into left side bulkhead, while water pump from sump below is pumped through the water manifold back into the individual tanks. Tanks are partitioned but with a gap below, allowing water to flow through to side bulkhead. 


This shows the bottom gap


This is the water manifold that delivers water pumped from the sump below. Not bad. It takes care of aeration as well.


Overflow

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## StanChung

Ah, I think they abandoned the IOS in favour of EOS.[external overflow sump]
Did you ask why they prefer the latter?

My presumption is that with EOS you can minimise equipment and use only one powerful UVS.
The IOS pictured is rather small for LFS that tend to overstock.
Would be sufficient if you if you have drip system and much lower stocking levels. Eg pairs and juveniles.

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## craftsman

> Ah, I think they abandoned the IOS in favour of EOS.[external overflow sump]
> Did you ask why they prefer the latter?


Boy...I'm really lousy with the acronyms. You're right, Stan. They are using a sump now right at the bottom, which obviously is an external sump. Doh!  :Embarassed: 

No. Didn't occur to me to ask.  :Razz: 




> My presumption is that with EOS you can minimise equipment and use only one powerful UVS.
> The IOS pictured is rather small for LFS that tend to overstock.
> Would be sufficient if you if you have drip system and much lower stocking levels. Eg pairs and juveniles.


yeah. I'm going to modify my design slightly based on what I saw today. I will still use individual cannisters for each tank on each tier, but on the return water, I'll put the return through the same water manifold used by the LFS. I can distribute water evenly across teh tanks, and aeration is solved!

Ronnie, I can come get your air manifold to convert to water manifold.  :Grin:

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## RonWill

> This shows the bottom gap


 Paul, I like to use gravel but will incorporate a UGF plate as well, to minimize clogging (beneath the partition divider) and longer interval between maintenance. To see how effective such simple UGF/under-flow filtration can be, stir up the gravel during maintenance and siphon from that partition. You'll be amazed how much gunk there is.

At the last partition, next to the under/overflow (above pic), the gap is a tad too narrow for comfort. Personally, I'd prefer to use coarse sponge since this is one partition that cannot be allowed to clog or fail. For aesthetics, the front edge of the sponge can be taper-cut, so that only a thin line of sponge is showing. Larger pebbles can then be laid over the sponge.

In small multiple partitions, these are usually used for small breeding groups or for growing-out older fry. I can't emphasize enough for that tier to have *either* the same species or pairs of *different genus*. In the case of killifish breeding, differentiating immature killies from the various populations of _Chromaphyosemion_ is nearly an impossible task. Tiny fry have an uncanny way of ending up in other partitions. To have all different genus or the same species, would mean that I need not cull the un-ID'ed fry. If I foresee a higher fishload, all the return will pass though a OHF or modified Henri deBruyn. 

Space permitting in the segment that has the overflow pipe, you can consider rigging up a Matten Hamburger filter to further support beneficial bacterial colonies.

BTW, are you still opting for filtration per tier or a recirculating system for all 3 tiers??? My personal choice is still per tier but if your final decision favors recirculating, then factor in the space and other manifold needs to cater for UVs.




> I can come get your air manifold to convert to water manifold


 No reason why not but remember to clean the valve regularly with a toothpick, satay stick or interproximall brush (from your dentist), if you detect slow output. I will be home tomorrow during the day. Call me nine2nine5 four55four after 1pm. (need my beauty sleep lah)

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## RonWill

Paul, this might clarify the use of UGF plates under the permanent partition dividers.

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## craftsman

> Paul, this might clarify the use of UGF plates under the permanent partition dividers.


Hi Ronnie, really appreciate you digging up your past posts and showing them to me, and probably others who might be considering similar projects.  :Smile:  They are helping me loads! (hmm.. maybe I should start searching for all of your posts!  :Very Happy:  so much value in reading them. I learn loads!)

I think I owe you several cups of coffee and if you ask for blue mountain coffee beans, I'd be hard pressed not to get them for you.  :Opps: 

Can I delay slightly the pickup of the manifold? Maybe after Chinese New Year. If this can be postponed 2 to 3 months, it would be fabulous! I don't have any place to keep it now until I move to my new place, for which I am still concluding the purchase, HDB submissions and the renovation. But please, if you need to clean up your corridor, go right ahead. Don't have to wait for me. No obligation to me at all.  :Grin:

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## craftsman

> BTW, are you still opting for filtration per tier or a recirculating system for all 3 tiers??? My personal choice is still per tier but if your final decision favors recirculating, then factor in the space and other manifold needs to cater for UVs.


Opting for individual filtration per tier. Was thinking of using cannisters instead of IOS. But this idea of the Matten Hamburger filter intrigues me.  :Grin:

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