# Other Aquarium Forums > Marine Tanks >  Problem Setting up a 2 ft Marine Tank - Please help me

## Marine

Dear Marine hobbist,

Before I begin telling you my problme, Let me do a short intro about myself. I'm a new Marine Hobbist and my passion in this Marine is gone MAD for already 6 mths. I'm really love watching Marine fishes and corals daancing under the current beaneath the ocean. I'm really glad that I found this forum and learnt many new trick about marine. Really appreciate those that have spent time replying all the message.

Background:
6 mths ago, I started off with a 1 ft marine tank. It went well for about one month before the marine system collapsed. So I tried re-starting the system again and about 3 weeks later, it started to collapse again. I think the main problem is that I over crowded the tank with about 4 to 6 fishes and some corals. 

My problem (setting up a 2 ft tank):
I shall begin to state down my problem now. After spending so much $$$ on this 1 ft tank. I decided to start with a 2 ft tank. What happen was that within the same day, I started to run my filter system with new mixed salt water and put about 5 to 10 kg of live rock into the tank. But after 2 days, marinf tank collapse. All the rock die and water turn smelly. So I thought my water circulation is not strong enough, I purchase one more power head and re-start to build up the 2 ft tank with NEW life rock. But it fail again. I purchase another more powerful power head and repeat the whole process. But again, after 2 days, the system collapse again. I'm real real sad and my passion shaken. But I give myself one more chance to set up this 2 ft marine tank again. Now, the tank is running with crystal clear water with just only 1 yellow goby and 2 hermit crabs. I really afraid to begin from here. I'm lost NOW. I'm afraid to come back home from work to see all the tank collapse and the house turn smelly. Can anyone please help me by providing me step by step procedure so that I'm able to make it for my last try. PLEASE advise.

Perhaps, before you give your value suggestion. Let me brieftly state down the exisiting equipment that I having now and what sort of constraint i have.

My existing equipment:

1) qty 1 Ehiem 2228 cannister filter (3 layers of filterinf: bottom layer = zeolite + coral chip/ sand, middle layer = ceramic (cylinder shape) + Biohome, Top layer = activated carbon + polyfilter + wool

2) 2 ft tank (600x300x450 mm) = 73 L = 16 gal inclusive of 2 tubes marine lighting

3) 3 power heads

4) 1 surface skimmer


My constraint:

1. I wanted very much for a big tank (at least 4 ft) but I'm going to shift house within the next 3 years. So I decided to just have a 2ft tank to satisfy my passion over marine fishes. Too troublesome to shift big tank ....so no choice lah. Will definitely set up a bigger tank at my new place but in 3 years time.

2. The room that I placed my 2 ft tank is rather warm about 31 deg. I tried placing a fan to blow the water but can't really help ...sometime the temp drop to 29 deg but still not good enough. 


Some other question that need advise:

1. Can anyone help me to set up my small 2 ft marine tank. I wanted to keep 70% fishes and 30% corals. Anyone willing to help me to do landscaping etc... please leave your contacts.

2. From my existing equipment, what sort of equipment that I'm shortage of. Please help to list down. Preferably, I can make use of this equipment for my future 4 ft tank (i.e. use it on 2 ft but later in future, still can be use on 4th tank)


Thank &amp; Regards
Ivan 
p.s. my passion in marine break out and uncontrollable !

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## DragonGoby

Hi Ivan,

I'm currently doing up a new 4-footer, but I've had a 2-footer several years ago that went well for several months until an anemone crashed it. 

I would HIGHLY recommend a protein skimmer - it really works wonders. I was away for 4 days just after I placed my live rock in the 4-footer, and when I came back the water had turned cloudy. After getting a good skimmer, the PS pulled out a whole load of jet-black gunk and the tank was saved. And the rocks survived happily ever after. [ :Grin: ] You could get a cheap taiwanese counter-current make, which was what I used on my previous 2-footer - otherwise, without a sump (you can't use those in-sump models obviously then), you might have to fork out about $300 or so to get a stand-alone model. 

Another thing - you shouldn't have put in any animals straight after you placed the live rock in. Leave the LR to cure first, then add. The LR will add sufficient quantities of ammonia, NO2 etc to build up a bacterial colony which will arm your tank to handle larger bioloads later. 

What fish do you intend to keep? Try not to get coral-eating ones if you're going to keep any corals at all. Maybe tangs, royal gramma, firefish, cardinals and damsels will do ... 

Regards,
Hong Yee

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## Marine

Hong Yee,

You mean that after the live rock turn smelly and the water turn cloudy, I'm still able to re-use back the rock, provided I'm equipped with a protein skimmer ? If yes, I'm real stupid *** in this world because I threw the smelly rock away (3 occasions), thinking it has already dead and have no use or perhaps side effect in using the rock. 

Thanks
Ivan
p.s my passion in marine will never die !!!

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## Spiff

i think u r adding too much live rock in a small volume of water at a very rapid rate.
try adding abit by abit. massive die off could hv crashed ur tank.

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## IcecruncherZ

Dont give up... i think most of us here have had our taste of bitter crashing failure.

Well you didnt do wrong in throwing away the live rock... as what you said, it may be dead, and if you keep the 'dead' live rock (sounds lame) you're gonna have to cycle your tank for at least... 3 months before your system is 'safe' for any additions

I believe you have been 'conned' by the shopkeeper or something... I myself have experienced some irresponsible shop owners who would lie through their teeth just to get something sold... 
eg: Morrish Idols are easy to keep, butterflies are reef friendly... clams need fluorecent light to thrive... makes me feel rather irked 

Know your facts well, dont trust the shopkeepers

It's going to be very hard for you to keep corals with the lighting you probably have with a 2 footer, as well as the temperatures that your tank might be experiencing... (then again my tank hits 30degs too hahaz...) 

Keep ONLY soft corals... all hard corals will not take the temperature fluctuations. Can try things like: Zooanthids, Palythias (correct spelling not hahaz...), mushrooms, clove polyps, star polyps, tubeworms... 

For your fish... dottybacks, grammas, if you're lucky maybe a dwarf angel (cherub, flameback?) 

For the skimmer, an air driven one will actually suffice for your tank, but if you have cash to blow, get Red Sea Prizm... Hahaz... Looks good...

Lastly... must be honest with yourself lahz... 2 foot is pretty small... and changes in water conditions... be it pH, or a die off, will very instantly affect the whole tank... so get hardy stuff and stock slowly... =)

Lastly: Good luck!! =)

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## kelstorm

ivan... u need to cycle your tank to get the filters to settle down first.. ie, to get the bacteria settle in.. dumping in lots of live rocks on the first day will eventually crash the system.. 
to do a proper nitrogen cycle.. u need up to 28 days.. with just a couple of rocks to cycle the tank.. but u can shorten the time span by seeding your tank by using sand or used wool from someone's tank.. 
u should get a book as well.. read more abt the hobby first.. if not, if this goes on.. u gonna think that marine aquarium is very ex.. YES... it is if u dun do the right stuff the first time... u should not add first for the first 2 weeks if possible.. but i understand.. everybody would like to have everything up within a day.. mind u.. this is unlike FW fishes or system where everything can go up within a day... 
any problem.. just post... we are more than happy to help our dark side.. hahaha... btw, on behalf of the moderators, welcome to Aquaticquotient.com.... especially, my dark side.. hahaha
yes.. do go for a skimmer... if money constraint.. go for ORCA.. cheap and good.. me using it with my 4ft.. but will upgrade it when i shift into my own house...btw, from what i read.. u have a surface skimmer???? u should be getting a protein skimmer..[ :Grin: ]

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## LiquidFX

Yo kel, you can't put everything into a freshwater tank within a day  :Razz: 

Freshwater tanks need cycling too, to cultivate the freshwater bacteria

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## kelstorm

cannot meh??? LA did it what.. that is what she told me..[ :Knockout: ] kenna con... sigh..

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## Marine

Dear Marine Buddy,

Thanks for all the advise so far. Please do throw more knowledge to us...blow us up with new info man... :Smile: . Frankly speaking, thanks for the reply so far.

Ok, let me summarise (in question format) and do correct me if, i'm wrong. [ :Grin: ] 

1. Is my Eheim 2228 filter good enough to support a 2 ft tank ? And a sump is need not for this 2 ft tank ?

2. Is my filtering layout for the Eheim correct ? (please see 1st e.mail for easy reference)

3. A protein skimmer is a must have equipment ?

4. Keep hardy marine fishes and soft coral will likely to be success for my case i.e. for a 2 ft tank ?

5. For now, I just need to put about 3 kg of live rock first and let the system run for about 3 weeks before adding another 3 kg of live rock. Maximum live rock for 16 gal tank is 8 kg. After that, I can progressively add slowly some soft corals and finally add fishes. Am I right to say that ?

Please help to answer my 5 queries stated above, so that I can start with confident again. Hope this time it will work. 

Thanks
Ivan
p.s. My passion is growing again

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## nautilus

ivan,

From what you said, you had quite a few live rock die-off instances. How did you transport your live rock? Were the rocks smelly when you brought it home? Just asking cos the live rock that had perished during transportation will turn very smelly within a few days of adding to the tank. In this instance, the live rock is probably dead and you have to either throw it away or sun dry it for use as base rock. From what i understand, having live rock in a 2 ft will not crash it. In fact, it's supposed to seed the water and the substrate for the build up of bacteria and other critters.

naut

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## Marine

naut,

Thanks for replying.

I smell the live rock before purchasing and it don't smell bad. Smell like salt water.... :Razz:  

I transport the live rock by car, withing 30 mins I reach home liao.... :Wink:  

I suspect is that I buy too much rock for my 2 ft tank. I read one of the article in this forum, saying that 1 pound (0.45 kg) of live rock needs anout 1 gallon of water (approx 4.1 liter). So for my 2ft tank, i can only have maximum of 8 kg of love rock BUT I'm stupid enough to add twice that figure. And I think I dump all the rock at a go instead of adding bit by bit into the tank...say 3 kg for 21 days and then another 3 kg for another 21 days. Another 2 kg to cater for future soft corals that come with rock. 

Correct me if I'm wrong in saying that.

Thanks
Ivan
ps: my confident is up again
[ :Grin: ]

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## IcecruncherZ

Doesnt sound like you did anything wrong... maybe you damn lucky lor... something unknown creature in your didnt survive and rotted lor...

=P

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## kelstorm

1. Is my Eheim 2228 filter good enough to support a 2 ft tank ? And a sump is need not for this 2 ft tank ?*for 2ft.. dun need sump lah..2228 is good enuff.. but since it is a all wet filter.. u need to cycle the tank first..u will not be able to get aerobic bacteria as compared to those wet/dry system.. but no worries.. it can still be done..alternatively, u can have the rain bar fall over a box that acts as a trickle filter.. to create that 'dry' part of the system*

2. Is my filtering layout for the Eheim correct ? (please see 1st e.mail for easy reference)*IMO, i only used bioballs, filter wool and charcoal.. and in this order..some guys here have other views..personal preference*

3. A protein skimmer is a must have equipment ?*ABSOULUTELY YES!!!!!!!!*

4. Keep hardy marine fishes and soft coral will likely to be success for my case i.e. for a 2 ft tank ?*no hard and fast rule.. go for what u like..i.e... fishes and types of corals... just stay clear of more sensitive livestock..*

5. For now, I just need to put about 3 kg of live rock first and let the system run for about 3 weeks before adding another 3 kg of live rock. Maximum live rock for 16 gal tank is 8 kg. After that, I can progressively add slowly some soft corals and finally add fishes. Am I right to say that ?*IMO.. go and get a bottle of liquified invertebrate food.. empty the contents inside and let the water to clear.. like that.. u have some form of bacteria form already.. then dump in the rocks.. perhaps like couple of pieces... using KG is very confusing.. as some rocks are more heavy.. then get the test kits to test the water parameters. if u dun want to buy them.. then wait lor.. wait for 10 days enuff..before u dump in the next batch.. and wait for another 10 more days to let the system get used to the bio-load.. then get the livestock
[] all the best to your new tank*

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## kelstorm

Doesnt sound like you did anything wrong... maybe you damn lucky lor... something unknown creature in your didnt survive and rotted lor...

=P

----------------
ice, he dump everything at one shot.. system crash coz the filter cannot cope with the bio-load...[: :Smile: ]

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## DragonGoby

Wow, so much stuff to read and learn from!  :Smile:  

Anyway, Ivan, you mentioned the maximum is 8kg of LR - not really lah ... it's more like the recommended amount of LR per gallon (1-2 lb/gal), esp. for Berlin systems. For a small tank with high bioload (70% fish!), i think you did correctly by using a cannister filter instead of relying on LR filtration. So actually could have dried the dead LR and used as base rock, then let coralline grow by seeding with a little real LR and maybe some coralline encrusted snails or those that come with the corals you'd be getting. Also dun get too much LR ... if your tank is filled, then how the fish swim? [ :Grin: ] K, talking rot, haha. Brain dead now. 

Regards,
Hong Yee

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## IcecruncherZ

But I dumped 45kg at once and nothing happened lehz

In fact I have quite a bit of unknown lifeforms on my rock... Hahaz... +

Maybe I'm just lucky... =P

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## nautilus

ivan,

Yeah, doesn't seem you did anything wrong. In fact, a friend of mine has more than 30 lbs of live rock in his 15 gal. He dumped it in in 2 halves cos the half the live rocks from the first half died during transportation. But even then, dumping lots of live rocks into a tank shouldn't pose any problems. Perhaps you could tell us the timeline of setting up the tank(ie. day 1-add water, day 2 add salt etc.).

Naut

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## Marine

Ok the time step as follow:

Day 1:

day time -
a. prep salt water and pour it into the tank.
b. dump all the rock at a go.
c. On filtration
d. Pour one full bottle of baterial into the tank

night time -
a. water begin to clear up but not crystal clear

bed time -
a. realise some live organisms started dying. creepy worm start to creep out and some begin to die

Day 2:

early in morning-
a. many worms and organism die off
b. water clear but not to the extend of crystal clear

evening time-
a. have a great shock in my life !!!  :Sad: 
b. the house turn smelly
c. water turn damn cloudy
d. all worms and organisms die off.

Basically, the above description has happened 3 occasions. within a month, because after 1st time failure, i retried again but still happen. The third attempt was still the same.

I really wonder why ? Is my Eheim pump giving me problem ? Because the suction side was attached to a surface skimmer, providing surface skimming and suction at the bottom. 

Or it could be i have actually over load my filter with all the rocks.  :Sad:  

really heart pain...$$$



[ :Embarassed: ] Ivan

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## bclee

Read somewhere that adding air pump should help during the initial setup. The bacteria needs O2 for conversion of NH3 to NO2 to NO3.

All those nitrifying will consume huge amount of O2 especially with the initial die-off. Lacking in O2 will cause everything to die in the tank including the nitrifying bacteria.

Your canister filter probably don't give you any aeration unlike a wet/dry.

BC

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## nautilus

Ivan,

It seems that you commited the ultimate sin in reefkeeping - impatience. It's never a good idea to do the everything in one day. Firstly, tap water contains chlorine(dissolved), and it can only be gotten rid of if left overnight(minimum) or 2-3 days if you've a 2 feet tank. Well, chlorine is added to kil bacteria rite? So adding live rocks + bacteria to chlorinated water kinda defeats the purpose. I would think this was one of the biggest reason for the die off that you experienced. Secondly, the salinity level will tend to fluctuate immediately after adding salt due to undissolved salt and improper mixing, etc. Normally, there should be a 1-2 days buffer period before anything is added to the tank. Thirdly, pouring in the entire bottle of bacteria into chlorinated water will cause most of them to die.

Maybe next time, take things slowly one step at a time. Try this, 
day 1 - add substrate/add water
day 2 - do nothing...just leave your powerheads and filter running
day 3 - add salt, wait for a few hours, then add ONE CAPFUL of bacteria
day 4 - add HALF A CAPFUL bacteria and do nothing
day 5 - add live rocks
following this, you should leave the tank to cycle for about 2-3 weeks before adding fishes. During this period, there is no need to switch on the lights. Although the temptation is there to add fishes during this period of time(eg damsels), don't do it cos adding fishes will cause the fish to undergo tremendous stres during the initial ammonia/nitrite spikes. Not to mention that the fishes will normally be very territorial later on when you decide to add other fishes. Only way to solve it may be to shift the rocks around, but that would more or less bring about another mini-cycle.

You can tell that the rock is dying in your case when lots of worm/copepods start swimming out of the rocks and also the appearance of "cobwebs" on your rocks. However, the former may not be always true cos some organisms do swim out of healthy live rock into the sandbed where they can do greater things there.

Also, a tip for transporting live rock: put very wet(soaked in saltwater) newspaper on top of the rocks during transportation to minimise die off.

I've smelt a tank with dying life rocks before, and i can understand how you feel when you return home to find your whole house stinks of that smell. Good luck in setting up your tank and this time, do not rush.

Naut

PS. sorry about the bold capfuls part. Was quite shocked to see that you actually poured in the WHOLE bottle of bacteria.

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## DragonGoby

AHHHH! There you go - pouring the whole botle of bacteria in? Sad to admit, I just committed the same mistake on my 4-footer! Put in 1/3 of the bottle, and 6 hours later everything started frothing up, but nothing died except my scopas tang.  :Mad:  Oxygen starvation - the poor guy was gasping and lying on the sand. As the bacteria reproduce they take up loads and loads of oxygen and I guess the organisms on your rocks died, causing another cycle of oxygen starvation. I can't imagine what would've happened if I had put in the whole bottle - and the total volume in the system was 4-foot plus another 4-foot sump! 

I agree with Nautilus' steps - follow them and you can't go very wrong. Except try to use RO/DI water when first filling your tank. If this can't be done, add salt and water on Day 1, run powerhead, and add a bag of a mixture of activated carbon and PhosGuard. The resins and carbon will eliminate most of the tapwater impurities (DI/RO water and equipment are rather expensive ... so I use tapwater lah), and will allow you to turn on the lights for a few hours each day to prevent any macroalgae present from dying off, and yet preventing diatom outbreaks. 

Patience, patience, patience, my friend!  :Wink:  I waited a whole 5 weeks before putting my first mushroom in. Just to make sure. :Smile:

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## Spiff

i think u r running things abit too fast.....slow down. let ur water stablize be4 doing anything. did u check ur water parameters be4 adding ur live rock? if possible try to get some sand from the other members living near u. this can help jump start the cycling process

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## Marine

Thanks guy for replying and the knowledge that you guys have provided. Really appreciate it.

I have just bought a skimmer and is running it. Hope this work. Oh ya, also bought ONE piece of live rock (weigh about 5 kg) to provide cover for my small powerhead at the tank corner. And also at the same time add 10 cup full of bacteria to the tank.

Basically, to round up what is in my tank now.
1. tank with salt water already running for 3 days
2. 2 hermit crabs (already 3 days in the tank)
3. one piece of live rock (weigh 5 kg) just put in today.
4. 3 power head running to create water circulation and current
5. surface skimmer to skim off surface dirt
6. protein skimmer to ?

Next step, I will be adding another 3 to 4 kg of live rock probably next thur/ fri.

Then, one more week later will add some soft corals

then, one more week later after adding soft corals, I will add maximum 2 fishes in the tank (probably damsel and crown)

Please correct my steps if I made another mistake.

Thank
 :Smile:

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## Spiff

dun add any live stock for another month. definately no corals 
skip the damsel...it will be hell in ur tank.dun add too much bacteria too.

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## nautilus

ivan,

Wow...that's still too fast. I agree with spiff, no more lifestock for at least a month. As for the bacteria, you can stop adding them already. The amount present in your system should be sufficient for the cycling process. There is NO short cut way in marine aquariums. Cycling is essential to create a well balanced ecosystem that's close to a reef habitat. Rush it and the whole system will crash and you'll invariably spend more replenishing your lifestock and rebuilding your tank instead of advancing your tank or upgrading the equipment. Patience is a virtue....esp in marine aquarium...heheh...

Naut

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## kelstorm

Ivan.. first thing.. *TOO ANXIOUS TO SETUP = SYSTEM CRASHED!!!*... for my 4ft, i cycled my tank for 6 weeks, adding 3 batches of LR in between b4 i got myself any lifestock.. 
u can either follow those methods by dragongoby, nautilus or even me.... take your time.. and u will enjoy it better... mind u.. once it started off at the right key.. u are more than half way to success... the above posts by them is good.. try to follow.. resist temptation to add any more livestock.. coz they will not be able to take it.. u are merely wasting your $$$... stop going to farms or any LFS for the next few weeks.. and let the tank stabilise... [ :Grin: ]

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## NinjaFly

Well, I am also the impatient type. 
I did my freshwater tank ...everything within 1-2 days.
But surprisingly, most of my fish did survive.

Quite interested in the marine tank, but after seeing Ivan's experience, kind of scared leh. The freshwater tank is already quite costly. Can't imagine the $$$ that is going to spend on a marine tank.

BTW, where do you pple get the marine fish? I don't see them in the normal LFS.

Anyone can gimme a estimated price to setup a reasonable marine tank? Kel/Ivan?

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## kelstorm

Quite interested in the marine tank, but after seeing Ivan's experience, kind of scared leh. The freshwater tank is already quite costly. Can't imagine the $$$ that is going to spend on a marine tank.

BTW, where do you pple get the marine fish? I don't see them in the normal LFS.

Anyone can gimme a estimated price to setup a reasonable marine tank? Kel/Ivan?
----------------
what size of tank u talking abt... the type of equipment matters alot too.. to the price that is.. but it is definitely abt 2-3 times the initial cost to do the set up.. there are only a few lfs selling marine fishes apart from those FF.... they can be located in Yishun central, Hong leong building in the west and another one in Balestier..[ :Grin: ] [ :Grin: ] 

u can take a look at the marine side posts.. there is a lot of similar questions.. take a look and any questions u dun understand, just post again.. we try to help again.[ :Grin: ] 

Yes.. feel the force of the dark side.. hehehe[ :Grin: ]

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## Marine

The tank is doing fine now with just only One 5 kg Live rock. I can see the worm and micro-organism are enjoying themselves wandering about the tank.

My 2nd batch of Live rock will be next thur or Fri. Anyone keen to join me next week at HL ? (er...the 3rd batch of Live rock will be week after next the 2nd batch.) Comment if you think can't work. Thanks  :Smile:  

Well, i think about $350 you can run a 2ft Marine tank. But suggest you get those necessary equipement that can support 4ft tank for future upgrading.[ :Grin: ]

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## nautilus

> ----------------------------------------------------
> Well, I am also the impatient type. 
> I did my freshwater tank ...everything within 1-2 days.
> But surprisingly, most of my fish did survive.
> ------------------------------------------------------


Freshwater fishes are less sensitive to the water and their environment as compared to saltwater fishes. It has been frequently said that the reef habitat is supposedly the most stable environment on earth. You can clearly see how much science has gone into saltwater aquarium equipment to acheive this.





> ------------------------------------------------
> Quite interested in the marine tank, but after seeing Ivan's experience, kind of scared leh. The freshwater tank is already quite costly. Can't imagine the $$$ that is going to spend on a marine tank.
> -------------------------------------------------------


Ivan failed because he was too rushed in the setup process. If you take things slow and steady, do the right things and don't do anything stupid, you should be able to enjoy a nice marine aquarium in your house too.  :Smile: 





> ----------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, where do you pple get the marine fish? I don't see them in the normal LFS.
> ----------------------------------------------------------


There are lots of aquariums selling marine fishes around. Check out the LFS directory in aquatic realms at www.maxdax.com/aquaticrealms to find out more.






> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone can gimme a estimated price to setup a reasonable marine tank?
> ----------------------------------------------------------


This will all depend on the size of your tank, which filtration system you will be using and also the priorities that you give when purchasing equipment. You can set up a 3 ft on a shoestring budget of between 500 to a thousand or if you're rich enough, spend thousands on it. Things like metal halide lamps, chiller, good protein skimmer, etc don't come cheap, and it's only the tip of the iceburg as we have not even mentioned about the livestock yet. The sky's the limit for marine aquariums.

If you want something really cheap, you can try a 2 ft with these:
1) 2ft tank - $20
2) salt - $15
3) light - $40
4) canister filter - $75
5) sand - $15
6) powerhead - $20
7) hydrometer - $5
 :Cool:  skimmer - $25

set aside another $100 for livestock/live rocks+miscelleneous items and you can have a marine aquarium for about $300-400.

Naut

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## NinjaFly

> ----------------
> If you want something really cheap, you can try a 2 ft with these:
> 1) 2ft tank - $20
> 2) salt - $15
> 3) light - $40
> 4) canister filter - $75
> 5) sand - $15
> 6) powerhead - $20
> 7) hydrometer - $5
> ...


Arrhhh!!! Just visited the LFS at Bukit Timah Shopping Center! Now I am really very tempted to setup one marine tank. But the way the owner describe, it sounds so easy to setup a marine tank. There are at least 4 marine tanks that are smaller than 2ft! He says that the maintaneance of a marine tank is so much easier as compared to a freshwater tank. BTW, the owner says those marine fish cost only $2-5... Consider that cheap?

BTW, if I am using a overhead filter, is it advisable to use it for marine tanks or are those canister filter + powerhead necessary? 

~~~~~~~ I am beginning to feel the power of the dark force ~~~~~~~~~~
[ :Grin: ] [ :Grin: ] [ :Grin: ]

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## kelstorm

ninjafly, what is the size tank. u talking abt? like some of the forumers had mentioned(or was it i??).. go for the biggest tank u can afford.. then the equipment.. coz the bigger the tank (u can keep more stuff lah...).. the easier the maintenance.. for less than 2ft.. what peanuts(no pun intended) can u keep? do the livestock a favour.. imagine for FW; keeping a discus in a 1ft tank..if it is bare ok.. but with marine.. bare tank.. not nice lah.. 
price of fishes.. varies from place to place.. and the species as well.. u never mentioned the species.. so very difficult to say whether cheap or not.. damsels can get as low as $1 each.. 
as for filtration, honestly, i have never seen one with overhead filter.. canister yes.. mostly, ppl would go for either sump, refugium or canister... dun forget your protein skimmer... not surface skimmer.. they work differently...[ :Grin: ] any more queries.. just post.. can only help u in general based on the questions....

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## IcecruncherZ

Ninjafly - Email or add me to ICQ or whatever I need to tell you somethings about the shop. Not posting here cos might get sued or dunno what. 

My email can be found under the profiles

Otherwise use my email to add my to your ICQ list

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## NinjaFly

Hi Kel .. I only have a 1.5ft tank and a 2ft tank at home. Thinking of converting the 2ft tank into marine. Actually, I am thinking of adding only a few fish to the tank. Not too many.. too many fish will definitely spoil the ecosystem and breaks the tank down.

Currently me dun want to spend another sum of money to get a tank bigger than 2ft coz no space to put already lar. Therefore, I am eyeing on my 2ft tank now...

BTW, since I am not too familiar with filters. Therefore, I am a bit lost when anyone mention names like "sump, refugium or canister".

I have seen internal, external filters before but are those mentioned above different brands of internal filters or are they something else?

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## kelstorm

BTW, since I am not too familiar with filters. Therefore, I am a bit lost when anyone mention names like &amp;quot;sump, refugium or canister&amp;quot;.

I have seen internal, external filters before but are those mentioned above different brands of internal filters or are they something else?
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those are different type of filtration methods.. not brands or something along that line.. [ :Grin: ] it is ok.. when i started out.. i was like u.. and i have no one to turn to.. thus i bought books to read.. well, i would recommend the same to u.. do get a book and it will definately serve u well and save u tons of money later. at least.. from the book.. u be able to know besides the different terms we used here.. u will get the basic knowledge of setting up one... btw, it is very different from FW... [ :Grin: ] i would be more than glad to help you once u have more queries...

well.. in fact, i often encourage ppl to read up first.. ie.. to get basic knowledge of keeping the system viable first.. so that they can help themselves by saving tons of $$ by making less mistakes... [ :Grin: ]

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## nautilus

ninjafly,

I agree with what kel said. A 2 feet is about the bare minimum for a marine tank that one should go. A bigger tank will have more allowances for errors by acting as a buffer if say the water chemistry is thrown off balance due to additives or deaths, etc. Furthermore, certain fishes(eg. some tangs) do not do well at all in small tanks, even in 2 ft tanks. They'll break out in ich or some other stress related disease if they are immersed in a hostile environment. Also, the tank would look pretty cramped as people have always perceived marine fishes to live around vast amount of water. The prove is in the beauty of larger marine aquariums as compared to smaller ones. We have to face the fact that the complexities of the processes occuring in a marine aquarium simply does not allow us to set up a tiny aquarium with long term tangible success. It's unlike freshwater aquariums where small fish bowls have been known to house guppies or small fishes without any problems.

So far, i've not seen anybody using an overhead filter for use in a marine aquarium. Although it is possible to do so, i don't think it is recommended. It is always better to follow the methods of experienced aquarists so as to ensure that your future system works correctly. Many shops advocate the use of a canister filter. I would think that it is a good stepping stone for beginner aquarists as the setup is simple and its maintainance is straightforward. Once you've learnt more about this hobby, you can then switch to an overflow+sump system which yields better results. Well you could even jump straight into setting up a sump system provided if you had done lots of research before hand. IMO, a sump/refugium is beneficial to the aquarium in a variety of ways and it is definitely recommended.

You could have a look at the prices at different aquariums over the island. The price for a normal clown/damsel is about a dollar each. Some shops sell them at $2 but the fishes may be in a better condition than the cheap ones. The rule of the game is simple : scout around for the nicest/healthiest fish even if the price differs by a dollar or two. No point buying a fish only to have it dying the next day rite?  :Wink: 

Naut

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## Marine

Very agree with Naut &amp; Kel, bigger the tank, smaller the variatons in any conditions and more room for the fishes to run about and many more things you can establish with a bigger tank. Well, for me, I got no choice. I wanted very much a bigger tank (more than 4 ft) but I will be shifting house soon (within the next 3 years). So really painful to do shifting with big tank. 

Hence, I'm now setting up a 2 ft marine tank to quench my Marine passion. Though 2 ft is very small but I'm real satisfied at the moment as compare to my initial 1 ft tank. (actually my wife control me not to have big tank now, she only allowed me to have 4 ft tank after we shifted to a new place....[ :Grin: ] ) 

By the way, I just went to Hong Leong this afternoon and realised that the shop owner have just set up a 2 ft tank...quite nicely done with bare minimum equipment. Ninajafly, you may wish to take a look and copy exactly what equipment needed for your coming Marine tank. 

Well, as for me. I have all the necessary equipment (see initially e.mail)...just bought a protein skimmer. So what I short of now is a chiller. But don't intent to buy now until I upgrade to a bigger tank or rather I should say, when I shifted house then I get a chiller.

By the way, Hong Leong just arrived some beautiful Live rock. Just added abother piece of Live rock (4.5 kg) to my tank. So far, in total, I have only 2 piece of Live rock now. Will get another 2 more small Live rock to complete landscaping somewhere next week. Then, let the water stabilise for awhile before putting some hardy corals.

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## kelstorm

Ivan.. do things slowly.. if not, u might just risk having another failure again.. (touchwood)... and dun get too much rocks.. coz corals come with them too.. dun forget that.. [: :Smile: ]

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## Marine

Thanks...... :Angel:  

A real good reminder...[ :Grin: ] 

If I success, I will take some digital picture to put it up here.  :Smug:

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## kelstorm

ok.. will be waiting for the pics.. hehehe[ :Grin: ]

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## neubie

hey naut! guess i found my way here to! [ :Grin: ] 

hi ice, care to tell me more abt the lfs in bukit timah? cos i bot sum stuff fr them....  :Wink:

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## IcecruncherZ

Add my to your ICQ or smething I'll tell you from there

Use my Email in the profile to add me

=P

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## Marine

Hi Ice,

Do you mind share your knowledge here as I don't have ICQ. Like to hear from you guys and learnt many new stuff.

By the way, I have successfully complete my landscaping. All the Live Rock are happily enjoying themselves in my 2ft tank.

All thanks to yhe tips provided by you guys.

[ :Grin: ]

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## nautilus

mistake post...sorry

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## Marine

:Angel:  Just measure the nitrite level for my newly set up 2 ft tank. It measured at 0.2 ppm. Is it safe to add livestock now ? And what sort of hardy thingy can I add in ?[ :Grin: ]

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## DragonGoby

Mushrooms would be one good choice - added a metallic green shroom colony when my nitrites were at a horrific 0.5ppm, and they even budded! Zoanthids (buttons etc) are also ok. Cleaner shrimp are real hardy too - marine life has loads in stock now, at long last. 

Good luck with your tank!

Regards,
Hong Yee

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## Marine

Hi guys,

I think my tank should be more or least stable by now and I have already started to add some live stock. What I have now is 2 fishes + 3 shrimp + 2 hermit + 1 cucumber + little crabs come with live rock. Will not be adding anymore livestock until this load is stable again. What you think ? :Angel:

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## kelstorm

I think my tank should be more or least stable by now and I have already started to add some live stock. What I have now is 2 fishes + 3 shrimp + 2 hermit + 1 cucumber + little crabs come with live rock. Will not be adding anymore livestock until this load is stable again. What you think ? :Angel:  
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i think it should have stablised by now.. and if u want to add stock.. add slowly..

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## Marine

Kelvin,

Need your advise or analytical thinking to solve this query.

As you know my marine population consists of : 1 damsel, 1 jaw fish, 2 hermit crabs, 3 shrimps, 1 lobster, a few little crabs, 1 mushroom, 1 durian coral, 1 star polysp, 1 sea cucumber and lastly 1 fan worm.

yesterday, i measured the water parameters and were all within limits (except nitrate was about 40 ppm). And while feeding yeaterday, all the livestocks do eat comfortably.

However, this afternoon when I was about to feed them, I noticed that my blue damsel has become skeleton. Can you advise what actually has caused its life?[ :Embarassed: ] 

BTW, I noticed some scale around its stomach area looks abnormal. Could it be the cause ?

Please advise, thanks

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## kelstorm

As you know my marine population consists of : 1 damsel, 1 jaw fish, 2 hermit crabs, 3 shrimps, 1 lobster, a few little crabs, 1 mushroom, 1 durian coral, 1 star polysp, 1 sea cucumber and lastly 1 fan worm.
*sorry.. but durian coral?? what is it full name in latin or common name? dun think i seen it b4*

yesterday, i measured the water parameters and were all within limits (except nitrate was about 40 ppm). And while feeding yeaterday, all the livestocks do eat comfortably.
*40ppm is a bit high.. if possible, try to have marine algae like caulerpa prolifera or caulerpa sertularioidides, to help u to soak up the excess nitrate. If not, do more water changes.. ideal should be less than 20ppm*

However, this afternoon when I was about to feed them, I noticed that my blue damsel has become skeleton. Can you advise what actually has caused its life?[ :Embarassed: ] 
*u did not mention what kind of shrimps u have there but from the looks of it, it might be your lobster or those crabs.. cute as they may be.. but they will ambush your fishes at night and devour them in their sleeping ard. That is the most logical reasoning that i can think of as the damsel is feeding well the previous day without any distress, if dun make sense to die on you just like that and become skeleton the very next day*

BTW, I noticed some scale around its stomach area looks abnormal. Could it be the cause ?
*can u discribe it? but if it is due to fighting(with the crabs or lobster), then no worries.. coz it will recover by itself.. but apparently, it did not survive it*

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## Marine

Thanks Kelvin,

Sorry, I also don't know the actual name of durian corals. When I purchased it, the boss told me is durian coral. It looks like durian.

Not too sure whether is the crabs or lobster that murder my fish. Perhaps I will get one more blue damsel and observe closely at night.

 :Evil:

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## DragonGoby

Hi,

The durian coral is also known as crystal coral in the US (they don'thave durians, lol), Galaxea sp. It's a SPS coral I think.

Anyway, I just went on a shopping spree and came back a broke but happy guy!!!! =) For $50 I got myself:

10 Turbo snails
1 orange Ricordia mushroom rock (about 7 shrooms)
1 orange Discosoma mushroom rock (about 35 shrooms)
1 Sinularia (finger coral) rock (3 colonies + a bonus moon coral colony)
1 bright green cat's eye bubble coral

Good deal eh? =) Now I just need a pumping xenia and an acropora to complete stocking up my dream tank. No fish yet, just 4 shrimps and one large brittle star. 

This is just too exciting for words. [ :Grin: ] 

BTW, anyone's tried growing the giant elephant ear's mushrooms? I want to get one but it's damn expensve ... anyone's got a cutting of it to spare? hehe ...

Regards,
Hong Yee

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## Marine

hi hong yee,

Nice to hear that you made a fruitful trip. BTW, which marine shop you visited to get such a good deal ? 

 :Razz:

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## kelstorm

Hong Yee.. Elephant Ear can get very very big and is predatory.. it is known to devour fishes.

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## Wind

Hi Ivan,


Just saw something in yr eheim which is not surpose to be in it. Zeolite! Pls remove that cos it will lech NH3 into yr systems again. Salt water is used to re-charge Zeolite!


After reading thru yr postings, U dont seems to have a chiller for yr 2 feet. I doublt yr corals can survive in the long run. Just my personal views only. Hope it helps.

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## DragonGoby

Hie,

I went straight to the farm at Choa Chu Kang. Nothing spectacuar, but large variety. 

Anyway, anyone knows how much a clam costs?

Regards,
Hong Yee

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## Marine

Hong Yee,

For Farmmart (near chua chu kang), the clam cost from $30 and above. The smaller the clam, the more expensive it will be. Few weeks ago, the Boss there offer me $35 for the big clam but I didn't take the offer though the clam is very beautiful. Well, the reason is obvious for me as my tank is just only 2 ft ....no space for such big clam.[ :Grin: ]

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## Marine

Hi wind,

Disagree with you about zeolite issue. Infact, zeolite is any member of a family of hydrated aluminosilicate minerals that have a framework structure enclosing interconnected cavities occupied by large metal cations (positively charged ions)--generally sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, and barium--and water molecules. The ease of movement of ions and water within the framework allows reversible dehydration and cation exchange, properties that are exploited in water softeners and molecular sieves for pollution control, among other uses. 

Zeolites are natural volcanic minerals with a number of unique characteristics. Zeolites were formed when volcanic ash was deposited in ancient alkaline lakes. The interaction of the volcanic ash with the salts in the lake water altered the ash into various Zeolite materials. 

The Zeolitic channels (or pores) are microscopically small, and have molecular size dimensions such that they are often termed &amp;quot;molecular sieves&amp;quot;. The size and shape of the channels have extraordinary effects on the properties of these materials for absorption processes, and this property leads to their use in separation processes. 
Molecules can be separated via shape and size effects related to their possible orientation in the pore, or by differences in strength of absorption. 

Ion Exchange 
i. They have replaced phosphates as water softening agents.

ii. Treatment of radioactive wastes. Zeolites have been used for many years to remove Caesium and Strontium radioisotopes from nuclear waste. Zeolites are very resistant to the high doses of radiation present and are very selective ion exchangers, able to remove dangerous isotopes which may be present in only minute concentrations. 

iii. Removal of ammonia and ammonium ions from waste water. Zeolites can reduce the concentration by over 90%.

iv. Zeolites are used in modern detergents as 'builders'. They remove calcium and magnesium ions from the washing water to prevent their precipitation by surfactants. 

Hope this info is good for all. Or anyone disagree ?

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## kelstorm

pls take note of the feeding habits of the clams.. they are usually filter feeders and require large amt of suspended food particles in order to florish and if they are not kept properly, they are prone to die and cause pollution in the tank...u also need to consider dosing calcium or kalkwasser in that sense..[ :Grin: ] they are very delicate creatures.. yes.. they maybe beautiful.. but if u are inexperience and cannot keep the temp down or maintain a tip-top environment, i dun suggest keeping them..[: :Smile: ]

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## Spiff

kel...no need to feed at all.u jus need light..very strong light.if mh best.
it olso depends on wat kind of clam it is.blue green clams need extremely strong light while brown no need tt much. clams cannot survive long periods under fl or pls. 
ur calcium must olso be at least 400+ppm n above.
temp must be below 28 n cannot swing so much too.
if ur tank is fairly new do not try them.

a normal not colourful clam is $25-35 while nice colourful n hv very beautiful patterns can be $50+

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## Marine

Hi guys,

I have just taken 3 snap shot of my 3 mths old 2f tank. Will put up the pic here for viewing. Just to share the effort of everyone[ :Grin: ]

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## Marine

how to insert pic (jpg format) here ?[:0]

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## kelstorm

go to this..
attaching pics[ :Grin: ]

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