# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Catfishes >  celticfish's Hypancistrus zebra pleco (L046) thread 01 - Adam & Lilith

## celticfish

Yipee!! My L046 have spawned!  :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:  

The Spawn happened last week on 7th March.
I came home in the evening and saw a lone egg kicked out of the cave.
Then scooped it and place it in a floating breeder trap.
However this egg fungused on the third day.
It seems Alpha knows what he is doing...  :Grin:  

The eggs became wrigglers on 12th March.
And I took this picture on the 15th March (at 8 days old).



I'm now counting down to 27th March when they will be free-swimming.

btw Beta has a female in his cave since the 8th March.
Yesterday night there were three fishes in his cave.
Man I wonder whats going on in there...  :Shocked:  
Hopefully he is not shooting blanks!  :Exasperated:

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## blueblue

congratulations!! ^.^
It's great to see a lot of lovely L46 babies are coming out soon. Do keep us up-to-date  :Smile:

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## yorky

Hi Irwin, cool rear picture.
Maybe you'll have double happiness soon!

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## celticfish

update-

early morning of 17th March (about 10 days old)


Night of 17th March
you can tell there is a big difference between the morning and evening photo.
seems this is a particularly fast development stage for the wrigglers.


Night of 18th March
shaping up better and look like blueblue's 10th march pictures.
you can see significant growth in bulk and length in the tail area.
the fry are also wondering to the top of the cave.
dad seems to stay a little further out to give them some space?





@blueblue
Thank you! 

@yorky
got my fingers crossed.
but i dont think there will be much action till the fry and free swimming.


Beta male's royal rumble with two other fish ended with "no action".
at least two fish have gone in and out of his cave.
probably still trying to figure it all out...  :Confused:

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## celticfish

letting the male guard the spawn means getting pictures are hard...  :Exasperated:  
anyways i seem to be able to see 11 fry.
so along with the unfertilized egg that got kicked out on day one the brood size is 12 eggs.
will try to get more pictures.
otherwise "D-day" should be sometime 27th March.
i really hope all the fry will be able to ween to solid food then... *fingers crossed*

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## StanChung

Lol! Like anxious father... :Grin:

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## Quixotic

Any pictures of the entire tank itself? Curious about the tank setup. I assume it is a L46 only tank.

BTW, congrats.

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## celticfish

hi quixotic,

thanks for asking! just reminded me to post this write-up.
i've been doing this write-up on the tank setup in the background for a while now.
yes, its a L046 only tank with a bare bottom setup.
sorry this picture was taken in a big hurry you can see the reflection of my bed on the glass.  :Opps:  



i'm afraid i've been doing all the "wrong" things for my L046!  :Opps:  
i have them in a 5plan 2ft tank (just below 60 liters).
the L046 are of two sizes - one about 1.5" (6pcs) and the other about 2.5" (7pcs).
they were all purchased sometime september of 2006.
i did so as i was having home renovation and thought i may not be able to get them for a while.
so i took the risk and just wanted to keep them alive till a 3ft tank was ready for them.
since the spawn i have removed the 6 smaller fella to the 3ft tank.
i didn't want to upset the spawners.
the 3ft will be the grow out tank i suppose.
and if i'm really lucky i might get to use the 4ft planted tank for grow out! hahaha  :Grin:  


before i got my caves it was just small peices of driftwood.
needless to say the smaller buggers were not having a good time.
at sometime early november i got my caves and they were a lot better off.
i put three in the tank and took out some DW for cleaning convenience.
strangely enough they didn't take to the caves immediately.
and some of the (now) suspect female were hanging out in them.
alpha male took position in the middle cave and stayed there consistently though.
vegetation was a single pot of bacopa caroliniana.
i think this is a nice stem plant to have as it serves two purpose.
it gets rid of some waste, provides shade and a snack for the smaller ones.
you can see the holes they leave behind after their snack.
i will try to get a closeup of snacking evidence.


Filtration
filtration is provided by Eden 501 x 1pc (w/ spong pre-filter), and a Eden 316 x 1pc.
weekly - clean pre-filter sponge on Eden 501 and change all media in Eden 316.
additional aeration provided by a Rena 100 airpump with an airstone.
this has been upgraded to a Rena 400 to also power the breeding tank for the fry (i know its an overkill).


Water Matters
temparature was keep at about 29 to 30 degrees celsius.
water change was done twice between mondays to fridays.
and daily on saturday and sunday.
amount changed about 25 to 30%.
sometimes twice a day on the weekends.
this is to compensate for the overcrowding.
anti-chlorine is used with a dash of sera aquatan.


Feeding
at first twice a day.
very lightly in the morning.
and the main meal at night.
food consist of a mix on my mood.
menu list - frozen blood worms, tetra bits, hikari canivore tablets and sera plankton.
sometimes tubifex worms too.
i try to mitigate the parasite fears of tubifex by storing them for a day or two before feeding.
this, i hope with unfounded faith, will purge the worms of unwanted matter.
but like what some say "a little dirt hurt nobody"!
i use leftover as a check on feeding amount.
adjusting till there is some leftover so i know they have enough to eat.
keeping the temparature at least at 30 degrees celsius helps their appetite.
i do think they are still comfortable at 32 degrees. 
i know because they had ICK on the first month i got them!  :Knockout:  
man you have no idea of the feeling i had when i first realized it.
during that time i upped the temperature to 34 degrees celsius for three days.
after that i dropped it to 32 degrees celsius till the spots were gone.
only a month later did i drop the temperature to 30 degrees celsius.


Lighting
my lights come on at 5PM and turn off at 4AM.
i'm quite a night bird so these guys suit me just fine!
during the day the room is a little dark.
light source is only from the side of the window blinds and my room door.


Trigger for Spawning
Lord only knows! you could say i muddled into it.
i cant say for sure but the only corelation i have is the recent rains.
we had very consistent rains in the vening through early this year.
that stopped or became intermittent was about the time they spawned.
now the evening rain is here again who knows what will happen after this bout.
i know we can do dry and wet season simulations with water change and quality.
but we can't affect the air pressure like a rain cloud can.
maybe another way is reduce the height of the water?
also i did drop the temperature briefly to 29 degrees celsius.
then drop it again to 27 degrees after spawning.
i think i was posessed then.
i wanted to slow the development process of the eggs.
now its back to 30 degrees celsius to quicken the fry development.
does this make sense to any of you or am i just being an oxymoron?!?


this is about all i can think of at the moment.
please feel free to post any queries you may have.

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## Quixotic

Thanks for sharing! You must have done something right too if they spawned for you.  :Laughing: 

Interesting that you chose the bottom to be bare. I suppose it makes maintenance very much easier that way.

Having 13 of them in a 2 feet tank seems to be an overload, given that they are pretty territorial. Good thing you moved some of them.

Not sure about your filtration though. I thought they prefer strong water flows. I thought even with Eden 501 and 316 together, it seems a little under powered.

But you still managed to breed them. So even with not quite the perfect habitat, fishes can still be made to spawn. Hahaha... good luck in bring up the fries!

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## Gecko

Hi celticfish

Congrats on the spawn. Just wanted to share a couple of things:

You might want to be careful with introducing live plants into your breeding tank. Snails get in that way and are known to prey on babies with egg sac still on. Also, the babies are extremely sensitive to big water change. Call me kiasu but with babies, I do no more than 15% wc, its not an urban myth what PUB do sometimes  :Wink:

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## blueblue

very good sharing celtic!!  :Smile:

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## StanChung

Cool man! nice to see your setup!  :Jump for joy:

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## celticfish

@ quixotic
i agree about the under-powered filters.
so i try to compensate with the water changes.

@ gecko
my tank actually has snails.
not a lot but enough to be supplementary cleaners.
according to a guy called plecofarmer (at plecofanatic, i think) he thinks snails add something to their growth rate.
i personally think so too and suspect that they eat the baby snails for added nutrition.
i can't prove that though.
however they (adults and young L046) leave the snail's egg mass alone.
which leads me to suspect my above claim.

@ blueblue
you are welcome!

@ stanchung
stay tune for more updates.
I think "D-day" may happen this weekend instead of the 27th march estimate.
the egg sac seems to have just diminished to a rounded belly size.  :Jump for joy:

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## celticfish

Update 23rd March

picture of fry on 21st march
black strips are showing well and the tail is forming bulk too.



Picture of fry on 22nd march
this is as close as i can get for a picture of them.


reason why the above is as close as i can get...
dad really pissed at me.
notice how he tries to cover the whole cave with the bulk of his body plus his mouth!  :Shocked:  


a fry under dad.
notice how he angles himself over the little guy with his ventral fin stiffened.
you can also see the thickness of the rear-body.
the tail shape is forming well and as are the black stripes. 
also, the egg sac has turned into a little pot-belly.
so i reckon "D-day" should be moved to this weekend.  :Jump for joy:

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## celticfish

i just remove the fry to a breeder tank. 
the headcount is confirmed at 11 fry.
i still have my fingers crossed that they ween without casualties to solid food.
should be within the next day or two...  :Opps: 
i will try to post some pictures tomorrow.

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## celticfish

24th March
got a glimpse of this little bugger when i woke up in the morning and checked the tank.  :Jump for joy:  


by the evening of that day i got the whole lot into a breeder trap.
sorry about the shallow depth-of-field.





this morning (27th march), i have still not seen them eating.
maybe they have some more yoke to work out?
but "D-day" (20 days from eggs) is today.
so they should be dropping like flies from tomorrow onwards if they aren't eating...  :Knockout:  
but i've been putting some sera micro-pellets and a bit of spirulina tab.
i'll try some spirulina flakes this evening.

the headcount tally is still at 11 pcs.
water change is about 10% daily except weekends 30%
my home has a water tank so i think it helps.
more reports to come.

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## valice

You might also want to try the Hikari Carnivorous sinking pellets. Recommended by Benny to me to try the last time. And really, all my plecos went crazy over it when the pellets hit the deck.

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## celticfish

valice,
i feed that to the adults but didn't think of trying that for the small fellas.
but you are right might be worth a try.
i'm paranoid about them not eating at this stage.  :Opps:

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## celticfish

valice,
i put three little broken piece of hikari canivore tablets and a little spirulina flake.
i didn't see any canivore tablets remaining but i did see some flakes this morning.
thanks again for the suggestion.

general update.
although i haven't seen them munching anything they seem to be ok so far.
they are still very skittish especially with the light on.

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## valice

Hahaha...  :Laughing:  No issue. I seriously wonder what ingredients those japanese in Hikari put in those tabs. Seems like all fishes go crazy over them. My Apistogramma also will peck at the tabs.

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## akoh

Congrat celticfish ! try going easy on the % during weekend coz' at this stage the fries are really very fragile and if you can ( maybe a bit too late now coz' you already separated them ) try releasing one or two back to the original cave to test whether papa zebra still accept them !. If he does then release the rest, this is bcoz' the water conditon ( with all the trapped food and minimum water circulation within ) and open environment is not ideal for the fries. Just a thinker for you ! Cheers  :Smile:

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## celticfish

thank you Akoh!  :Smile:  

i just did a 10% WC last night and overfilled a little.
woke up this morning and saw two escapees from the breeder trap.
i don't think dad wants them in the cave as mom (suspect) is in there!  :Grin:  
but i believe the females need about 4 weeks to regenerate eggs again?

btw the trap i have has a built-in "filter" on one end.
the airstone ensures a flow of water.
i reckon this saved my mistake on the water quality in the trap.
i will try to update with a close-up picture of the trap to show.

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## celticfish

Breeder Trap Design
this is my breeder trap.
notice the vents are just under half the height of the trap on the right side.
on the left side is the airstone and sponge filter.
i have the airstone on "strong" setting to get the water out faster.
i am maintaining my water change regime.
however, i now return the new water in three parts at 15 minutes intervals.



Fry Feeding
i have been feeding broken bits of hikari canivore tablets and spirulina flakes.
most time the leftovers are flakes.
i am still adjusting the amount to have some leftover carnivore tabs and less flakes.
i wonder if its a taste thing...


Picture Update of Fry
this picture is interesting.
notice the black circlular spot area on the bottom-right of stomach? its off-centre!
i wouldn't want my stomach like that...
and yes, all the fry tummies look like that!


hanging out






Misc. Observations
beta male spends his time exclusively in caves.
his pectoral odontodal growth is there but not as pronounce as alpha's.
i suppose that's why the female pass him by.

i currently have one confirmed male and two suspects.
"suspects" because they have not spawned.
the third male spend his time permanently under a piece of driftwood on the right of the tank.
he has the head shape of a male but his pectoral odontodal growth is not "there" for a male.

the "alpha" female is also suspect as i couldn't confirm it was her.
btw she has been in and out of the cave but is still in now.
i think the four weeks for the females to cycle must have some truth.
i didn't take the time to differentiate their tail marking yet before the spawn.
its "alpha" because she is not the largest of the suspect females.
the other three are also suspect females.
i have seen them in the alpha and beta males' caves.
since they get out without any fighting wounds i suspect they are females.
also, they don't stake out a cave permanently and have yet to do the dirty deed...  :Grin:  

the other day i had some fry escapees.
in total six got out of the trap after i over filled water above their trap.
they were all hanging out at various places.
i managed to get five back in.
but one smart little fella went into dad's cave inadvertantly.
he has since been hanging out in there. dang!
oh well, i guess he will be a test rat to compare growth with the rest.  :Evil:

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## StanChung

Cool man can't wait till they're big and fat.  :Wink:

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## celticfish

YIPEE!!!  :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:  
i just noticed another spawn last night! 
first spawn 7th march and second on 1st april.
i believe this is the same female that spawned the last time.
my suspect was chosen based on the belly being smaller after the spawn appeared.
she took three weeks and five days to cycle.
i suppose there's truth in the observations of four weeks to cycle.

btw the little escapee aka "lab rat" was in the cave. hope it learned something!  :Grin:  

picture to be updated soon...

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## StanChung

hey hey hey!!! That's means we'll be seeing lots of zebbies!!!

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## celticfish

the second spawn happened on the 1st or april.
again, a sole egg was kicked-out.
this is starting to look like a pattern.
it is now in the breeder trap with the other fry.
i can't see any development but it hasn't fungused yet.  :Exasperated:  
but i am quite pleased that the other adults don't prey on the egg or labrat!
in fact they have no interest at all on the egg or fry.
so labrat hangs out with impunity with any of the adults.  :Well done:  

still haven't seen the small buggers eating with my own eyes but the bellies look rounded.
i suppose that's as good as it gets for now.
labrat is out of the cave at lights out but scoots back to dad's cave when the lights are on.
this guys getting an education seeing dad go through the process.  :Grin:  

i'm unable to count the egg mass but it looks like there are about 8 to 10 eggs.
D-day for this lot should be 20th april.
temparature was 27 degrees at spawning.
i am increasing 1 degree a day to 30 degrees to speed the development process.
anyone with thoughts or comments on this?!?  :Confused:

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## David Moses Heng

congrats and job well done!!! just did a check with LFS and was told that the current market value of L46 is $328 per piece!!!! Maybe you can help to ease the demeand of the fish?  :Grin:

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## celticfish

altum lover76,
thank you!

update
sole egg that got kicked-out of the cave turned white last night.
the eggs in the cave are okay.
but i can't say that there aren't other losses as i can't count them.
thankfully the alpha male knows what he'd doing! 

the ten fry get a half a canivore tablet twice a day.
maybe i will up that amount this weekend since i am around to monitor the feed.

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## celticfish

6th April
found my first fry casualty.
its body looked really skinny and i have no idea why it died.  :Confused:  
any way labrat is doing ok in the main tank.

managed to catch labrat and put him in the breeder with the rest.
according to some breeders the one with dad are suppose to grow faster.
but this doesn't seem to be the case with labrat.
he is noticiably smaller than the rest.
also his tummy has a black colouration while the rest have an orangy hue from the canivore tablets.
he must be having slim pickings in the main tank.
however i notice he is more adventurous and move about even when the tank is lighted.
the rest just huddle togather in the corner of the breeder trap.

7th april
they just have their first taste of brine shrimp.
man! they go wild when it went in.
and some are strating to move around the trap looking for the BBS. 

the second brood looks really yellowish.
as of this afternnon they don't seem to have hatched yet.
(edit: some wrigglers sighted)

pictures to be posted soon...

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## Quixotic

> according to some breeders the one with dad are suppose to grow faster.


Why is this so? As far as I know, they don't care for their fries.  :Huh?:

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## valice

celtic, how do you achieve the low pH (or they don't need. They from white water rivers right?) in your tank?

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## celticfish

@quixotic,
that was a comment i read from some breeders at zebrapleco.com.
i am now of the opinion that the breeder trap formula works better.
mainly because the smaller size doesn't give them a problem with finding food.
however, labrat seems to be the best adjusted of the lot!
most time they just huddle in the corner of the trap.
labrat however roams around and sometimes hides on his own.

@valice
i just use tap water condition with anti-chlorine and a dash of Sera Aquatan.
PH is not adjusted. 
tap water at my place is 7.0 PH.
some articles i have read claim they will breed even in hard water.
from the number of articles/post i have read i think there is some truth in this statement.
some use regular hard-tapwater for regular water changes.
and when the want to trigger spawning they swith to RO water.
it brings the conductivity down and acts as a trigger for the fish.
thank God i didn't have to go that far.

i suspect mine was triggered by an act of God!  :Grin:  
(remember the long rainy period we had over the year-end period?)
i just followed-up at the right time with more frequent water changes.

also, the higher temperatures i kepp them in the preceeding months before the spawning conditioned them well too.
the higher temparature upped their metabolic rate and they ate more.


Update
all the eggs have become wrigglers!
i have now upped the temparature to 30 degrees celcius.
D-day 20th april.
i am hoping they get free-swimming faster than that from the higher temparature.
i will be turning up the temparature over the next two days to 32 degrees celcius.

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## Quixotic

> @quixotic,
> that was a comment i read from some breeders at zebrapleco.com.


Ah thanks for the info, will snoop around. I am not sure it will make much a difference with or without parents.

I personally think that your setup is good, feeding is controlled and this will ensure they are eating well. If they are in the main tank with adults and food is dropped, you wouldn't know for sure that they are getting to the food.

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## celticfish

i second you on the feeding part.
the guy overfed to compensate for the main tank setup.
but i am incline to believe that the small fellas get "something" from dad.
i am observing distinct trait difference with labrat and the rest of the brood.
granted he is smaller than the rest but he seems more "streetwise"...

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## celticfish

just took a peep last night.
there might be 11 to 13 wrigglers.
it seems there are more eggs this time compared to the first brood.
speed of fry development since i've upped them temparature is hard to say.
it does "look" faster.
the females are already fighting for the turf in front of the cave.
"alpha" female is quite contented to just hang out on top of the cave.
i am a happy camper!  :Jump for joy:

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## celticfish

dang! just took a look and...
it looks more like 13 to 15 fry!! yeeha!!  :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:

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## David Moses Heng

good!! Maybe you can spare me a couple of them?  :Grin:

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## celticfish

update

just saw an escapee from the second brood.
the rest still in the cave.
i will start feeding heavier to compensate for them weening to solid foods.
and i still cannot get a definite count on them yet.

the first brood is doing alright.
feeding has been upped to two canivore tabs a day.
they now hang out in two groups.
i think its the larger size that forces them to do that now.

i will also be dropping the temparature from the current 32 degrees celcius to 30 over the next two days.
this should be comfortable for all and i can continue to condition the adults.
dad needs a short rest and FOOD!!  :Laughing:  

the "alpha" female is hanging out on top of the cave.
beta male has also vacated his cave.  :Confused:  
not sure why though...

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## StanChung

I think that the fella came out for a smoke. [j/k]

I wonder if the fellas have really good eyesight. Other wise how can they see to remove the dead eggs?

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## celticfish

last night i saw the lone escapee and another group of five behind a cave.
what is interesting is dad has had a handfull the last couple of days keeping them in.
i think i need another breeder trap tonight and go on a fry hunt.
but this time i will wait for them to get out of the cave rather than take them out.
D-day was suppose to be 20th april (20 days from egg to free swimming).
so having a higher temparature does speed the process.
i think i'll start the higher temparature from egg stage next time.

@stan,
i believe their eyesight is good.
they will run for cover at my slightest movement if they are spooked.
but i think its a little more than eyesight for dad to know that an egg it not viable/fertilized.
i suspect the knowing comes from them constantly mouthing/massaging the egg mass with thier mouth.
they do that continually during the egg stage and intermittently at the wriggler stage.
i read a post that some deformed fry are ejected from the cave at this stage too.

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## StanChung

Yea, i noticed that. I'm quite worried if they don't eat because i never see them do so. [the two that i have] but they are zippy and i feel like i won lottery when i see them come out! lol

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## celticfish

stan,
i only saw them eating when i had the bare-tank with driftwood setup.
they didn't have any hiding places.
i must say i learnt the most of their behaviour in that time.
fighting behaviour, eating, etc...
only didn't see any kind of courtship behaviour.

update
did my fry hunt last night and ejected the rest from the cave.
i was worried they may not be able to find food in the main tank.
last count i have was 17 fry!
i thought the egg count would get lesser (i suspect its the same female)?  :Confused:  
but hey i'm not complaining!  :Grin:  
also started another lot of bbs.

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## StanChung

Yes, that's what I thought too. I'm very afraid that i will find still lifeless bodies as I have in the past. You think they are still alive but when you reach into tank it won't even react. :sad:

Congrats on ther bigger school!!! This will pay the bills for you!!! :LOL:

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## celticfish

OMG!! they've done again!!!  :Shocked:  

i suppose this confirms that the cycle time for th female is about 4 weeks.
thankfully there are no ejected eggs this time only a scrawny female hanging out on top of the cave.  :Laughing:  
the egg mass looks a good size too.
but i'm also curious about how many eggs this time.

odd bit here.
i had the second brood in a breeder trap.
however this trap was from an outdoor tank and had hair algae all over its surface.
as the days went by i started noticing that it got clearer.
close inpection show a clean surface.
guess the little fellas were rasping away at it.
only the surface close to the top was left unharassed.  :Grin:

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## Gecko

Hi celticfish

Do you think you get better results rounding up the fry into the breeder trap? I have left mine in the main tank with the adults, and debating whether I want to round up the fry into a grow up tank....

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## StanChung

Fwah, this hopefully I can see live. :Wink:

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## celticfish

@gecko,

so far for the two broods i use the first escapee as a timing to get them out.
but i've notice that their bellies still have an orange/yellow hue.
that is probably the yoke as i notice the hue changes to the colour of whatever you feed them later.
i've cut the silicon on the cave so its easier to get them out.
dad gets very upset when i open the cave to evict them.
however, once i place the cave back in the same spot he goes in again. *PHEW* 

main reason for doing so is the food.
with the smaller area in the trap they cant miss the food.
at the same time you still have the water quality from the main tank.
it is also a good way to monitor/study their behaviour albiet in a confined manner.

like all good things this will come to an end at a certain size.
i'm still giving thought to what size that might be...  :Confused:  
i will update when that happens.

your setup looks beautiful!  :Well done:  
you may want to consider having caves with a bottom though.
this will aid taking them out but with risks to upset the male's cycle.
for the young fish you may consider adding green veggies for them too.
i noted fish up to 1.5" also go at veggies though mine just bacopa caroliniana leaves.
reports from always stress the fragility of the young and usually take 3 months as a marker.
now i suspect they are a lot thougher than the credit (or lack of) given.
since you have a large tank getting water from the main tank for the grow out shouldn't be a problem.
you could time it with a water change and stabalise the temparature before moving them.



@stanchung,
no problemo...  :Roll Eyes:

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## Gecko

Thanks celticfish. It's not easy sourcing for slate caves locally. So far all the babies once they leave their cave, hide under one big piece of DW with a big overhang. There are more than 12 of them of <1" there right now. I noticed that once they reach 1"+ they scatter elsewhere. 

I have 2 new tanks coming in soon, so I am in the process of deciding:
1. Split the adults into 2 breeding colonies, divide babies equally
2. Maintain the current hierachy in one tank, and all the babies into the second tank.
3. All adults and babies into the first tank, and set up a new colony in the second tank. 

Interesting scenarios that have kept me up at night.... :Wink:

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## celticfish

Picture Update

Photo of setup with two breeder traps.
notice there is another trap stuck on the first trap.
i'm running out of space...  :Opps:  



Photo of escapee from second brood.
thats mum on top of the cave and dad trying to keep the small ones in the cave.

----------


## leeruisheng

Looks like a zebra pelco barracks.  :Grin:

----------


## mictok

Cool set up,when are you going get everyone to fall in and do head count? :Jump for joy:

----------


## celticfish

@gecko,
saw your new tanks. lovely!  :Well done:  
i see you got your caves too...  :Grin:  
yes, those iterations you mentioned ran through my mind too!  :Laughing:  
a point to add to for your consideration is the really really long time to get to maturity, two years or so.
on that basis i tend to lean to getting them a tank of their own (the fry).
it also lets you monitor the growth and/or mortality rates better.

@leeruisheng,
yup yup they look like pl*co barracks...
due to the tank size (or undersized) and the want to nose at the going-ons in the cave i have face them to the front.  :Roll Eyes:  

@mictok,
i called for a "turn out" recently.  :Grin:  
please read below.


Update - Statistics
average temperature of about 30 to 31C.
the fry take solid foods at aproximately 20 days.
female cycle time between each laying of eggs - 26 and 25 days.
its the same female so i can monitor the cycle time.
if they decide to do the nasty again then it should be sometime 22/23 May.

brood 1 (7th march)
eggs - 10, ejected eggs - 01, fry mortality - 01 at day 29 look scrawny and malnutritioned.

brood 2 (1st april)
eggs - 19, ejected eggs - 01, fry mortality - 01 at day 36 one of the larger fry but bloated stomach.

brood 3 (27th april)
eggs - 15, ejected eggs - 00, fry mortality - 00 (fingers crossed!  :Opps:  )

to-date headcount is 42 survivors from three broods.
if you count ejected eggs mortality is about 91%.
take the eggs out and its about 95%.
this is assuming dad didn't eat any other eggs.
i was not able to count the egg mass for all broods.

Fry Mortality
although without scientific proof, i'm inclined to believe that the fry mortality are a result of faulty digestive systems.
the first fry mortality looked really scrawny.
i think its digestive system was undeveloped and couldn't eat/digest anything.
the second mortality had a bloated stomach and you could see the canivore tab colour.
i'm clueless on this one. 
it was about twice as large as the first although its only i week older.
how do i know? stay tune for the morbid picture update this weekend.
since it was eating well what happened?!?
grabbing at thin air, i'd say digestive problems...  :Opps:  

Moving Fry
as a hedge and the fact that the traps change the flow of the current i will be moving one of the broods this weekend to another tank.
this should bring the current closer to the original flow.


that's all for now folks.
stay tuned for the coming weekend update.  :Smile:

----------


## celticfish

Update
third brood is on solid food as of yesterday.
i am beginning to form an opinion that it takes 18 days for the fry to get to this stage at a consistent temperature 30C.

here is a picture of the air-dried corpse of the dead fry for size comparison.
sorry for the underexposed picture...  :Opps:  


right fry is from first brood died at 30 days old.
remember this was the scrawny one.
i suspect it never made the conversion to solid food properly.
it died about 10 days after the solid food conversion day.

left fry is from the second brood and died at 35 days old.
this is the fella with the bloated belly.
he is about TL 18mm while the other is about TL 15mm.
notice that his bulk is almost twice the size and the skull and pectoral fin skeleton is very defined.
it is this difference that makes me suspect that the fry from the first brood had an undeveloped digestive system.

----------


## Gecko

We have similar experience. I agree with the digestive system failure theory. Of the 5 fatalities I have experienced so far, one was still young with egg sac ejected from cave, two (at one month) probably died from malnutrition (failing to convert to solid food), and two (two months) from bloated tummy (digestive issue again). 

Finally did my transfer and fry hunt last night. 28 nice juves. :Smile:

----------


## celticfish

gecko,

thanks for adding your observations on your fry.
this information exchange helps a lot!  :Idea:  

to add to the above, i notice that their stomach develops lop-sided.
it seems to start from the left side of the abdominal region and slowly goes to the centre.
maybe this is what causes their sensitivity as the stomach develops.
(picture previously posted in thread)

----------


## StanChung

Hi Irwin,
How often do you change water now that your zeb population is getting bigger?

----------


## celticfish

hey stan,

i have moved the first two broods into another 2ft 5-plan tank.
they have also spawned again this past monday.
also found a dead fry the same day.
this one is perpelxing because it looks normal and healthy... rats!  :Mad:  
water change is still the same at about 25% to 30% daily.
maximum tolerance i allow myself is two days without water change.
i may have to rethink this when i go for a much needed holiday this month-end.
on the weekends usually double that if i'm home all day...  :Grin:

----------


## StanChung

Hi Irwin,
Can I still take what as promised?  :Very Happy: ...please. Looks like you're going to be zeb factory anyway.  :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:   :Very Happy: .

----------


## SCOPE

Great factory with only a 2ft tank......Very Good job indeed.....

----------


## naresh666

those are really pretty creatures. how much do they cost and are they hardy? i would liek to keep them with my tetras . possible?

----------


## valice

They are pretty and expensive creatures.
Usual prices starts from $3xx.
Hardy? Hmmm, no experience. But plecos are generally hardier.

Can be kept with tetras for sure.

----------


## Quixotic

> those are really pretty creatures. how much do they cost and are they hardy? i would liek to keep them with my tetras . possible?


I am of the opinion that this is not a fish for beginners as they need more specialised requirements than others (e.g. very good water quality, high dissolved oxygen).

It would be better to try the less expensive plecos and gain some experience first. The pain of losing these fishes may be too much to take considering the price.  :Wink:

----------


## celticfish

@ scope,
thank you!  :Smile:  
the "factory" is the same male and female for all the broods.
i suppose the benefit is the meaningful data i can collect as they are from the same pair.

@ naresh666,
i sense you are about to have a fever.
L46 fever!  :Grin:  
but as quixotic says you may wish to try other _Ancistrus_ before you get into these guys.
i believe _Ancistrus_ is a good point as they have similar requirements and breeding behaviour.

Update
fourth brood now confirmed with 19 wrigglers.
the below stats are for total egg count (including ejected eggs from brood 1 & 2) i could see/confirm.

Brood 1: 12 eggs
brood 2: 19
brood 3: 15
brood 4: 19

As i can't count the total eggs.
i'm quite at a loss on the size of brood/eggs going up then down and up again...
but it seems the dad is doing a good job.

----------


## StanChung

Wow, thanks for the update. 19 in a spawn is very high indeed. Read lots of people with only 5-15 per spawn.
I've got babies and adults in a bare tanks as well.
I'm thinking of a multi tier setup with sump to have plants[emersed/duckweed?] to suck up nitrates.

----------


## naresh666

haha i really love these fish. Its one of the few beautiful freshwater fish.

more pictures please  :Smile:

----------


## valice

I was wondering what's the specification of your "cave"? Want to use slates and rocks to create a more natural environment. I will be attempting at breeding another _Hypancistrus_ species. And I believe they will have the same requirement.

----------


## celticfish

@ stanchung,
i think heavy will certainly help with the reduction of waste.
and i don't think they mind if some a leafy greens.

@ naresh,
will try to upload more.
but my photo skills are not quite there...  :Opps:  

@ valice,
i will measure and post it later.
update on size: (internal dimensions: 150mm (L) x 32mm (W) x 22mm(H))
in the meantime, i have read some approximates as follows.
btw this should work for any specific species as they are relative to body and fin lengths.

length = about 1.5 times TL
width = body width plus one pelvic fin fully extended (but mine is about 1.5 times)
height = body height plus one dorsal fin half extended (some are more)

but the overall concept should be "to assist the male in trapping the female".
so within reasonable dimensions, as long as the male can do that, all is well.

----------


## celticfish

here's a little update...

they went on a haitus after the fourth spawn.
the male's belly went sunken... needless to say i was having sleppless nights.
but after 2.5 months his belly recovered. *phew*

currently my oldest fry are about 6 months.
and the size you ask?.......... 24mm SL and 30mm TL --->  :Knockout:  
i reckon to get to the size of the smaller one avialable at NKS would take a year!! 
i am quite ashame to tell you all that the fry survival rate was 29%...  :Embarassed:  
i am quite at a lost as the first brood went to 3 months with only one mortality.
the three subsequent broods suffered most of the loss.
only consolation is i know my female can have up to 19 eggs.  :Grin:  


*ANNOUNCEMENT*
*A)* i am looking for more adults to try to split the group into two colonies.
current headcount is 8 pcs.
so i reckon i should be looking for 4 to 6 cps.
anyone interested to offer please PM.
i'm willing to pay good money for good sized adults.

*B)* also, i am willing to trading fry for new blood.
they all came from the same parents.
as much as i like them i am reluctant to keep all but a few for future stock.

please PM me regarding the above.

----------


## StanChung

Hi Irwin,

That's a pity. Hopefully you can get another colony going.
The fries I got from you are growing steadily. I estimate to be 25-28mm.

They've been eating beefheart bits and other scraps of food that's abundant in the tank from feeding the discus.

After the initial one loss, I sold 2 and have 5 left.

----------


## akoh

> those are really pretty creatures. how much do they cost and are they hardy? i would like to keep them with my tetras . possible?


No comments on the pricing. Generally L046s are hardy plec, some of my adults have been with me for 12 yrs now. All they need is " quality water parameter " and correct mixture of good food  :Grin:  . 
Tankmates is not advisable if you are planning on breed them but if you only want to " keep them " then tetras is no problem.




> I was wondering what's the specification of your "cave"? Want to use slates and rocks to create a more natural environment. I will be attempting at breeding another _Hypancistrus_ species. And I believe they will have the same requirement.


Another alternative is pvc piping, diameter 2.5" x 7" length, section the piping diagonally into two equal halves. You can either use it as it is or you can coated the outer surface with a layer of gravel.  :Smile:

----------


## celticfish

> I was wondering what's the specification of your "cave"? Want to use slates and rocks to create a more natural environment. I will be attempting at breeding another _Hypancistrus_ species. And I believe they will have the same requirement.


missed your question...  :Opps: 
i read general size is - 
width: body width plus one pectoral fully spread.
height: body height plus dorsaal fin half to full spread.
length: TL plus 25% to 50%

i like slate material but they are hard to work (need special tool to cut).
so i bought mine off aquabid from a guy in the USA.
he made them specifically for L46.
the concept is to get the right dimensions so it wouldn't be too difficult for the male to lock his pectorals and trap the female.
german style clay caves are good too.
there are a few suppliers for these at various sizes depending on your plec.

----------


## PLee

what is the recommended PH for these beauty ?

----------


## StanChung

I keep them in normal tap water pH. pH7-7.4

----------


## celticfish

Thank you Lord for this past rainy rainy weekend!  :Angel: 

upped the usual water changes this past weekend and was rewarded with the female in the cave two days ago, monday.
last night i came home to a lovely surprise from the same L046 couple.
female is out of the cave and looking scrawny...
and alpha is sitting on an egg ball!!  :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy: 

in the recent last month his cheek odontodes have grown back to sufficient glory.
so this must be his ace in the sleeve to attract the female in again.  :Evil: 
although i must add that all this time he was recuperating the female was always hanging close by to him.

stay tuned for updates...  :Jump for joy:

----------


## StanChung

Great news.

----------


## tcy81

> Thank you Lord for this past rainy rainy weekend! 
> 
> upped the usual water changes this past weekend and was rewarded with the female in the cave two days ago, monday.
> last night i came home to a lovely surprise from the same L046 couple.
> female is out of the cave and looking scrawny...
> and alpha is sitting on an egg ball!!   
> 
> in the recent last month his cheek odontodes have grown back to sufficient glory.
> so this must be his ace in the sleeve to attract the female in again. 
> ...


how many working pairs do you have ?

----------


## yorky

Celticfish, make it a habit and you can turn into a commercial breeder. 
Its only the beginning of the year so monsoon is starting.
Pray for an avalanche of baby zebras..

----------


## mobile2007

It's always interesting to see that your fishes breed like rabbits.  :Grin:

----------


## celticfish

tcy,
i have a quite a few adults sized one.
but only one pair that is producing.
i'm not complaining though...  :Smile: 

yorky,
i have my fingers and toes crossed!!  :Opps: 

mobile2007,
like my mum says, its a good problem. 

update
the egg ball looks good.
the size doesn't look big but i'm a happy camper anyways.  :Grin: 
female looks awfully scrawny though.
hopefully she stocks up with good feeding...

----------


## celticfish

Update:

on the fourth day 3rd Nov '07 at about 12:00hrs.
i saw one lone fry at the entrance.  :Opps: 
i wonder if something is wrong with it but put it in the trap anyways.



this is the homeless fella in the trap.
look closely and you can see the development of his (opened) sucker mouth.
it seems the sucker and fins are first to develope.



on the 5th day 4th Nov '07 at about 11:30hrs.
i noticed more egg "shells" around the egg ball but no loose wrigglers in the cave.
started shining the torch around but to no avial.
when i finally gave up and got up, i say wrigglers beside and towards the back of the tank.
outside the cave... needless to say i became a "kancheong" (anxious) spider...  :Shocked: 
i manage to siphone them out of the tank in put them in the trap.
i'm surprised they werent eaten overnight.
but i notice one was dead already - no movement of tail.
shortly after another followed.


the under-exposed picture shows the off-colour yoke sac well... 
the dead fry is the centre one.
second to go is the bottom one.



dad minding the rest like he should... 




i will try to keep the three rejected fry away from the rest to observe if they turn out... defective.
i'm sure dad smelt something about these guys.
to add, two have already snuffed out.
they look alright in my eyes though...  :Roll Eyes: 

that's 5 fry out with the egg-ball size looking pretty decent.
i'm going for a guess of 15 fry total.
let's see at the next update...  :Grin:

----------


## PLee

nice updates and all the best to the rest of the fries  :Wink:

----------


## CullTail

i just stumbled across this thread. and i must say... your updates have been most informative and captivating.
good luck on those babies!!

----------


## eeeeemo

irwin! where did you get *your* caves from?? homemade..? =)

_Edit: Please kindly refrain from using SMS lingos like 'ur', 'u', 'thx' etc. as these are not encouraged in the forum for the benefit of all members._

----------


## celticfish

thanks guys!  :Smile: 

eeeeemo,
i mail ordered the caves from the USA in aquabid.com, go check it out.
these are made from regular tile slates.
the dimensions have been mentioned ealier in this thread.
but if you need the dimensions let me know.
i can take them out for some measurements.
its bound with black silicon but clear silicon does the job just as good.
if you have the equipment or someone to cut it for you, better.
let me know too as i have some ideas on an "improved" version.
as least that's what i'd like to think! hahaha




UPDATE: (picture to follow soon, need to reduce my space limit...  :Opps: )
fry count is 15 fry, minus the 2 wrigglers that didn't make it makes a total of 17 eggs.
although mortality rate is not as good as i'd like!  :Knockout: 
i quite please with the productive capacity of this female.  :Grin: 
i just hope i don't get the "sudden death" syndrome like the previous broods... *fingers crossed*

i toying with the idea to do a daily picture update of the fry development.
currently debating to pull the egg ball or at the point of hatching.
however, the primary need is another brood...  :Opps: 

dad does a good job during the egg ball stage.
i see him constantly rolling and cleaning the ball.
from previous experience i'm sure he removes the unfertilized eggs and wrigglers.
also, i'm inclined to believe that he doesn't eat the egg or wrigglers.
as seen from the ejected eggs and wrigglers.
even the other adult leave the ejected eggs and wrigglers unmolested! cool!

----------


## celticfish

UPDATE:
another wriggler died at day 14... but the rest seem to be eating well and doing fine. *fingers and toes crossed*
the female and male have been at it the last few days in the cave but so far no action.

here is a picture of the tank setup.
as you can see i need MORE SPACE!!!  :Laughing:

----------


## celticfish

UPDATE:
spawn 6 just arrived 27th november night!  :Grin: 
the eggball looks a tad smaller this time though.
but its really hard to "eyeball" the number with dad in the way all the time.
a previous guess of 12 eggs turned out to be 19 eggs.
if it keeps raining you know whose praying really hard...  :Angel:

----------


## Quixotic

You've got a breeding factory going on!  :Shocked:

----------


## celticfish

quixotic,
no complaints from me!  :Grin: 
but it seems once they start they do go for a few rounds.
and from some reports, non-stop!
but i think my fish are that at the "kilat" (capable) stage yet.
those guys mentione are probably in the 6 to 8 year old mark. 

UPDATE:
brood 6 - total wrigglers - 15
survivors - 9  :Crying: 

brood 5 - total wrigglers - 17
survivors - 14 

as predicted brood 6 had a smaller sized eggball.
funny thing this time is the number of wrigglers tossed out.
5 from brood 5 and 6 from brood 6!!  :Confused: 

a happy marker for me is that brood 5 has passed the one month mark.
chance of further losses are lessened, i hope!  :Opps: 

estimated date for brood 6 to start eating is 15th Dec.
estimated date for brood 7 to arrive... 23rd Dec... 
with the rains so hard on us i'm not shy to say estimate brood 7!!  :Grin:

----------


## ranmasatome

WAh... early christmas present or you la!! haha..
Good to see them doing so well....

As for taking pictures...
i will perhaps swing by tonight and pass you the tripod...  :Grin:  call you first.. :Smile:

----------


## celticfish

every time another brood arrives.... 
it never fails to get me all excited!  :Grin: 

it seems this female is going like clock work.
please welcome brood 7!! 
as predicted earlier - 23rd november is their birthday.

when i got home 23rd evening, about 22:30hrs, i went through my ritual head count.
took the torch out and had a peep into the cave.
the female was facing outwards...  :Shocked: 
quite shocked i flip the beam as soon as i saw her eyes facing me...
instinct on my part? don't know...  :Confused: 
first time i've seen this with the zebras.
so i suppose we could kinda say that the female reverses facing to lay the eggs.
well, she certainly waited till the end of day of the 23rd...  :Laughing: 
as usual, dad's got the eggball covered when i had a peep earlier.

----------


## yorky

Wow Irwin.. less than 1 month between brood 6 and 7?!!
Amazing.
By the way, do us a favour.
Start the 'Guess how many eggs and win them all' will you?  :Grin:

----------


## akoh

*ka-ching*  :Grin:

----------


## SCOPE

Congrates....counting the young zebras will sure a very rejoicing moment.

----------


## celticfish

thanks guys!  :Smile: 
but i think credit should go to the "nasty" pair.
they are, after all, doing all the work!  :Laughing: 

yorky,
her cycle time between broods, not counting the near half year rest, is from 24 to 28 days.



UPDATE:
a lone egg was kicked out of the cave on the 27th december.
i'm speculating that dad had to remove a fugused egg in the middle of the eggball.
and in the process tore at it and the sole egg got loose.
i'll also speculate that such events by dad may also injure other good eggs.
this may explain the ejection of the larger number of wrigglers for brood 5 & 6.

brood 7 should hatch by sometime today/tomorrow.
and brood 6 is 30 days old today! *still crossing fingers for the fry*
so far, so good.
no sudden fry death... yet...  :Opps: 

currently, i'm constantly thinking of the best way for a grow-out setup for the new lot of fry.
that's the headache of using a fiveplan tank.

----------


## celticfish

UPDATE:

brood 5 - 14 fry just over 2 months
brood 6 - 9 fry just over one month
brood 7 - 15 fry should ween on 12th jan.

brood 8 - ETA about 18th jan *fingers crossed*  :Grin: 

still praying really really hard i don't get sudden fry deaths like the last round...  :Opps: 

so far the last calendar year, this pair spawned 7 time.
total fry count is 110! 
mortality rate - surviving fry vs egg count... *sigh* 
first season - 27%  :Knockout: 
second season - 72%
on the bright side at least the rate is getting better.

should they spawn brood 8 it will make it into a timeframe of one year.
so the pair would theoretically be able to produce 8 spawns per year.
that's inclusive of a break of 162 days.

----------


## akoh

Champion !  :Smile:

----------


## valice

Irwin, your documentation is amazing!
Hope to see new pictures of the young ones.

Btw, where's the pictures of your prize!?

----------


## celticfish

@ akoh,
all credit to the "nasty" pair!  :Grin: 

@valice,
here you go... pictures of fry from brood 7.
just snapped away when i saw them that way.
the red dot is their heart.
wish you could see it yourself as the pictures dont convey the little pumping hearts.
damn cute... found myself staring at the little pnuematic pumps for a while...



here's a picture of 5 of the fry from brood 1 to 4 taken on 29/12/2007.
the largest at 297 days and the smallest at 222 days.


this thread it will be one year old sometime early march.
i must say i never would have guessed that this thread would go on for almost a year now.
i hope the annual chronical of this pair will shed some light on their spawning habits.
though i do have much more to learn about them...
lord knows when the day will come when their fry start to breed.  :Opps: 
well, at least akoh has had that experience!  :Wink: 


the pictures of the caves will be up soon on the original thread.  :Smile:

----------


## marle

very nice L046 you have there!

----------


## blueblue

so glad to see your super productive pair  :Smile: 
How big is the oldest fry? The biggest one of my spawn (~ Feb - Mar 2007) 
is now 2 inches long  :Smile: 

If you are in Hong Kong, it will be great to exchange some of our L46 F1...  :Roll Eyes:

----------


## valice

> here's a picture of 5 of the fry from brood 1 to 4 taken on 29/12/2007.
> the largest at 297 days and the smallest at 222 days.


The white lines look very variable in sizes. Like the darkest one (female?), it looks like the white are thinner...

----------


## celticfish

@blueblue,
the oldest are just over 10mths.
i reckon they are about 43mm TL.
your fry seem to have very good growth rates.
do you keep them in a special grow-out tank?

yes, it would be great if we were closer to swap fry!  :Grin: 
maye when i make a trip to HK? 
i am very open to swapping fry.
especially when there will be no "new" wild specimens in the near future...  :Sad: 
this is my opinion although the L046 timeline (breeding time for each generation) is very very long!! 
taking a very long term point of view, fry swapping would help maintain the gene pool.
regardless of size difference, i'd gladly swap larger/older fry for smaller/younger fry.
i'd be very sad if this species goes the route of bulldog discus or veil fin BN...



@valice,
yes, the fry exhibit a variable range of patterns and thickness of black stripes.
though i've read about colour relation to sex, i haven't found any convincing reports imho.
in the batch there are fry that tend to be "whiter" and fry that tend to be darker (the white parts).
i think this is just genetic variability but i have not enough experience to verify this opinion.
then again it could be an illusion to our eyes due to the black stripe being thicker.
but this is just extrapolated from my experience from discus patterns...  :Opps: 

the darker fish is the eldest at just past 10 mths.
the whiter one or smallest is the youngest, or about 2.5 mths younger.

----------


## celticfish

me and my big mouth on ETA dates for the spawns...  :Embarassed: 
anyways, they are now "overdue" about one week from their usual cycle time.

the good news is, the raunchy little buggers are at it again!  :Evil: 
no spawns as yet, but lots of activity, i blame the rain we had last night.  :Grin: 
this time, another suspect female (a little smaller) tried to get in the cave. 
btw the alpha male and female were inside at the time...  :Laughing: 
i have observe it trying to get into the alpha's cave at various time before but it was never successful.
hopefully i can clear it as a confirmed female soon... *fingers crossed*

the fry from the second season are getting along fine, so far...
they are now 87, 59 and 33 days old.
mortality rate is much better this time round, its about 71% versus 40%!
WC regime no change so i dont think this is what caused the sudden fry deaths from the last lot.

----------


## akoh

How to do when you're being peep ! give them some privacy lah !  :Grin:   :Grin:

----------


## celticfish

well, the smaller suspect female is not letting up.
in fact, she managed to "chase" the alpha from his cave acouple of times.
then the alpha female chases "her" away!  :Laughing: 
really funny watching them go at it.

well, the rather intense evening rain seems to have done something for my sturisomas.
i have 6 pcs in a balcony tank, totally exposed to the elements, yesterday.
i keep them with some adults, sub-adults and juvenile L046 in a 3ft tank.

i'm torn now between wanting a "new" female to spawn vs the alpha female. 
but then again, any spawn with the L046 is a good spawn, big or small!  :Grin:

----------


## akoh

Bro, time to draw 20% and maintain at that level for 3 to 4 days then top-up to the usual ! -setting the mood for luv !  :Grin:

----------


## akoh

> @valice,
> yes, the fry exhibit a variable range of patterns and thickness of black stripes.


If you're lucky, sometime you'll get this : 


Sorry about the lousy pic. Notice the lines on the dorsal fin are almost vertical instead of horizontal !  :Grin:

----------


## celticfish

i think the water drawing won't help this time.
guess what... the alpha shedding cheek odontodes again...  :Knockout: 

so i'll take this opportunity to reshuffle some of them.
maybe another pair can get inspired with your water drawing method.  :Grin:

----------


## Diskus

simply amazing!
congrats :Smile:

----------


## celticfish

@ diskus, thank you!  :Smile: 

@ akoh,
Yes, I agree the marking are very variable.
And once in a while you get the beauty you have! *drools*
I'm now thinking that they will need to be at least 1.5" SL or 1.8" TL before you can extrapolate their adult markings.
This comes from observing the fry and my adults.
Fry with "bad" markings can get better as they grow larger and vice versa.
Any opinion on this?

btw might be time to invite sotongman over for updated pictures of your zebras.  :Grin: 


UPDATE:
Well, love is definitely not in the air... er... water.
Alpha looks like a TV zebra now!  :Laughing: 
His odontodes have totally dropped off and he looks naked.
It could not have been a fight as all the inhabitants in the tank have no visible fight markings.
Anyways he's usually the one that beats the others about.
But he temperament is a lot better than the newer alpha I recently acquired.

The other alpha rips tails and shreds skin!  :Exasperated: 
In fact he almost took out ALL the skin on the left side of an unfortunate fish.
Luckily it survived the ordeal.
Give him a female and I believe he might just kill it too.  :Exasperated: 
Anyways lets see what he does in a tank full of fish!

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## Gecko

Ir

The cold weather has been great! Before I left for my trip early this week, I saw two males fanning away, just got back and spotted 3 fry, one of them bigger than the 2: 2 different spawns! Cant wait to find more when they emerge from hiding!

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## celticfish

@ Gecko,
Cool beans! Now you can confirm two breeding males and females.
The long cycle time means it cannot be just one female.
No action with my group... but I have some good news!
See below.


@ akoh,
After your pictures I went through my fry.
Guess what I found from the first season fry...  :Kiss: 

The verticle black stripe on the dorsal fin starts from the first ray.
And in the main area of the dorsal is a T-shape black "stripe".








btw it wasn't very co-operative for the photo shoot.
and I'm sure its not very happy with me either!  :Grin: 

Boy, am I HAPPY CAMPER!!  :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy: 
Prays - "God, please let me grow this oddball to an adult. Thank you and Amen!"

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## Gecko

> Ir
> 
> The cold weather has been great! Before I left for my trip early this week, I saw two males fanning away, just got back and spotted 3 fry, one of them bigger than the 2: 2 different spawns! Cant wait to find more when they emerge from hiding!


The left guy is from earlier spawn - more than 3 months old, the right one is 2cm, smaller new batch. Counted total 6 new babies, 2 bigger, 4 smaller....normally easily another 60% hidden. :Grin:

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## celticfish

Gecko,
A whole lot of difference three months makes at this age!  :Grin: 
The female cycle time cannot be quick enough to visit another male so soon.... 
SO! Congrats on the cofirmation of two pairs spawning!  :Well done: 

Mine are still having a good time lazing around and not mating.
On the bright side the alpha male seems to be growing some bristles of cheek odontodes.
I'll monitor the length of time it takes for the odontodes to come back to near/full glory. *fingers and toes crossed*

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## akoh

> @ akoh,
> After your pictures I went through my fry.
> Guess what I found from the first season fry... 
> 
> The verticle black stripe on the dorsal fin starts from the first ray.
> And in the main area of the dorsal is a T-shape black "stripe".
> 
> 
> btw it wasn't very co-operative for the photo shoot.
> ...


Champion ! with your TLC I'm sure the fella will grow to adulthood !  :Grin: 

After T lines next will be S lines !  :Grin: 

Mine have been busy too !  :Grin:  saw a few fries on the glass panels over the last few late nights !  :Grin:  but once they're out of the cave ! it is not a good sign !  :Sad:

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## Gecko

> Mine have been busy too !  saw a few fries on the glass panels over the last few late nights !  but once they're out of the cave ! it is not a good sign !


Agree, luckily only 1 KO, the rest have gone into hiding, the "bloated" one is doing well so maybe its the egg sac remains, should be ok. :Wink:

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## celticfish

Tragedy!!! 

Alpha male has been killed in a cave dispute...  :Crying: 
Unfortunate but its part and parcel of zebra breeding.
Lord knows if the usurper is a good breeder... only time can tell. 

This is not the only dispute.
Another "junior" male got clobbered too, the whole side is raw.
Both 2 ft tanks now have a minimum of three males and two suspect females.
*fingers and toes crossed real tight*

On the bright side, the progeny from the Alpha male is doing fine.
At least he left some legacy to his existance. 
112 fry and 51 survivors from 7 spawns to his name.  :Grin:  
The thing I liked about him is his temperament.
He never gave any of the other sub-dominant males a sound beating nor maul any females.
I really wonder If I'll be able to get another fish this sweet. 

Always wanted to give him name but have always been calling him "Alpha male".
So I shall now posthumously name him "Adam"...

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## Gecko

Sorry to hear of loss of Adam.....I have experienced this before and the only reason the killings stopped (3 dead) was how my tank evolved to today, many hiding places and more caves than fish, many DW and branches with no line of sight from at least 4 different territories....this is one fish where over crowding to spread aggression does NOT work!

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## StanChung

That's terrible news. Hope you do get a very good breeder and also sweet ones from your line of progeny for continuation as X crossing.

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## celticfish

I thought I would continue updating this thread by documenting the juveniles "growth", or lack of... 
Here's Adam's legacy in two group shots...  :Grin: 
Ruler placed for reference of size.
After headcount there were some losses...


After about one year of "growth"...
btw the green algae feces was newly dumped by one of them.
This confirms earlier experience that they do go for veggies when smaller.
These are 392 to 342 days old.



Second season juveniles.
These are 180 to 126 days old.

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## akoh

Bro ! with those "links" !, look like in order for me to be "productive", I'll need to re-do my tank set-up !  :Grin: 

I was at Mainland FF last weekend, they do have some " nice and decent " looking rocks ! champion !  :Grin:

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## celticfish

Yes, akoh you should!  :Grin: 

But do observe the compatible ones before the renovation works commence though.
That way you should have minimal squabbling.
Getting the decent rock is half the problem.
The other, but bigger, half is "working" the rocks to suit your tank...  :Opps:

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## valice

They all look so cute!

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## akoh

> Yes, akoh you should! 
> 
> But do observe the compatible ones before the renovation works commence though.
> That way you should have minimal squabbling.
> Getting the decent rock is half the problem.
> The other, but bigger, half is "working" the rocks to suit your tank...


I'll put all the adults in the same 4' tank, the the sub-adults and juveniles in another 3' tank BUT BUT first I need to part with my 16" Xingu Platinum !  :Crying: 

Those big rocks look damn heavy to me ! I only afriad about the great reduction in water volume in the tank !  :Knockout: 

Bro, you got lobang for those rocks ?  :Grin:

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## barmby

> Second season juveniles.
> These are 180 to 126 days old.


Oh my god.... it is so nice!!!!! What a sight to behold.. thanks celticfish.. Fantastic thread..

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## ranmasatome

Ir.. went down to corona this weekend... saw their WODERFUL slate pieces!!! so tempted..haha

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## celticfish

@ akoh,
You don't need the change to be as productive lah...
With the active ones you have you just need a grow-out tank will do!
The concern with the water reduction is valid.
I had the same reservation from the size of the rocks too.
That's why the back to nature ones look tempting...

@ elmike,
The words "softly", "slowly", "gingerly", and "eggshells" were repeated repeatedly like a mantra while conducting the photo shoot...  :Laughing: 

@ barmby,
Waiting for your L134 group shots.
And they will certainly be more impressive with their egg count!

@ ranma,
Now then you say... *sigh*
But slate and rocks are the last thing on my mind now.
The pictures are just consolation in-case I return to an "immobile" zebra this evening.
If you read the other thread, I'm now fighting a disaster in the tank.
As much as I hate using medication I'm heading to C328 shortly for some Melafix and Pimafix for standby.
I've already started a Myzaxin course this morning.

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## genes

Nice shot, and they are really small! 

Oh barmby. L134!!!

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## celticfish

Yes genes, small and grow really really slow!
Do something "funny" and different and they die on you too...  :Exasperated:

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## Samuel2618

Wow.. You are fantastic man.. Help to increase the population of these endangered species.. Keep up the "reproductive" work of these species man.. They look so cute and healthy from the picture you have shown.. Really tempting to start up one tank but no money la..

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## StanChung

Hi Irwin,

Have you tried feeding them Hikari Marine Algae? Some bits are pretty big but it's a mix of small bits of shrimp like 'plankton' I think.

For the small fishes, you probably need to defrost and chop it up. [not as yuck as chopping worms  :Grin: ]

I think what's great about it is there's a variety of creatures in it plus it's of saltwater origin so there's less risk of disease transfer.

It's high in protein so I give it only once every couple of days a snack.

Much better than the beef heart that I use to give them. I find dry food is not ideal for growth. I also keep them in my cherry shrimp tank. I'm quite sure they hunt the cherries for food as I don't see the shrimp population increasing over these past few months.

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## celticfish

Well the juveniles are now officially orphans.
Lilith just died this morning...  :Crying: 


@ StanChung,
Hey long time no hear.
Been busy at work?

I think the fry are going after the micro-organisms in the algae.
Here's the rational, if they processed the algae the feces won't look green, right?
Since the feces still looks like green algae they are probably after something else in there.
I would expect the feces to not look as green if they did process the algae.
Can a suitable pleco-man comment on this?  :Huh?: 

I haven't tried the Hikari Marine Algae but it sounds promising.
Is it a frozen food?

You might want to watch the cherry shrimps in their diet.
They might pounce on one they cannot swallow like bloodworms...  :Opps:

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## StanChung

Hi Irwin,

I've been busy lately earning money for the hobby.  :Grin: 
I'm long ways off from showing off a tray of L46. [if ever!]
Sorry to hear that you lost Lilith.

The Hikari marine algae is frozen food. It would probably not be good for baby L46, they have frozen daphnia! LOL. I think my fish knows when I'm not feeding them their regular brand. Sounds crazy...

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## celticfish

As promised the size data for the fry after about a year and about 6 months.
The sample size was all from the first batch and eight random ones from the second.
The average at about one year is only 44 mm.
As you can see they are really really slooooow growing...


Juvenile age 342 to 392 days old.
Size in mm

SL TL
39	51
36	49
34	46
32	44 (T-Bar)
32	43
30	41
29	40
27	38


Juvenile age 126 to 180 days old.
Size in mm

SL TL
28	38
29	37
26	35
25	33
24	32
23	31
22	30
22	30


These data will be continue as long as I have the first batch.
I'm quite certain I wouldn't be doing this for future batch, if any, as its really tedious and....  :Exasperated: 
Anyone who has tried catching young zebra will attest to the above!  :Grin:

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## StanChung

I have only 4 and even I don't bother. LOL. But the you're breeding them so it's good to know.  :Razz:

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## Savant

Thanks for the effort indeed

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## celticfish

Thanks guys. 
And let's hope I am able to raise them to adults.
I'm interested to see how they will grow this second year too.
As you can see from the data they are barely 43/44 mm TL at the median.

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## StanChung

Hi Irwin,

I'm inspired to make them fat and productive. LOL.
Is it wise to put some cories and otos in the tank to help clean scraps?

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## celticfish

Otos aren't a problem.

Cories may "disturb" them imo but they do feed at different times.
I do see my small ones venture out for a feed occassionaly.
The very infrequent "lab rat" type.  :Grin: 
So the above depends on what time you feed.
If you feed in the night I think they won't have a problem with the cories. 

You can also consider malayan or cherry shrimps.
But these aren't too tolerant of the higher temparatures.
With time and lots of shrimps maybe successive generation can become more heat tolerant?
I'm guessing you'd be looking at something like 1 in 20...  :Opps: 

Snails are good but I find they tend to "swamp" the whole tank with their population explosion.
Doesn't do nitrates good when that happens.

btw, you don't have to see them eat when you spot them with a round belly!  :Laughing:

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## Savant

I am using what is known as XL Cherry shrimps from C328, so far so good, no issues with heat...  :Smile: 

Regret tossing in a couple of snails in from my other tank now... :P

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## celticfish

Not much to update about dead fish...
But the legacy is another matter!  :Grin: 

Here are the young ones in their "old" quarters.
Enjoy!



Closer...



They are not Angels!




The new quarters.



Hamster run!
Is the coast clear?



Okay, let's go boys!!!



Yipee-kai-yeah!!!

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## ranmasatome

WAH!! looks like Pleco suburbia..hahaha.. cool..

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## Wackytpt

Cool set up.
This is the 4 footer right?

What is the bag floating on the top left corner?

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## celticfish

Its from my laziness...  :Opps: 
Floating a bag of flame moss.
Surprisingly its doing okay in that bag for month without anything done.

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## StanChung

Pleco suburbia or pleco barracks?  :Grin: 

Looks cool man!

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## barmby

This is not an atm meh?

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## StanChung

Just wondering, why are there bubbles coming out of the spray bar? Isn't that weird?  :Surprised:

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## iwishweallcouldwin

Haha very cool tank! How are the residents faring in their new neighbourhood?

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## blue33

Wow... that tank must have cost a fortune.  :Smile:  Very interesting arrangement, looks like car looking for parking lot to park, not happy park another lot.  :Grin:

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## luenny

Reminds me of pigeonholes.  :Grin:  Nice fishes. How many do you have in there?

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## doppelbanddwarf

Very nice and neat setup. Really interesting. The air bubbles from the spraybar are from an attachment?

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## genes

Simple and easy to maintain!!! But i would suggest changing the java to nana because java rots easily...even if they start propagating...they will start rotting after some time. 

Irwin...I have been thinking...should i try a L46 tank with my current 2ft by 1.5ft by 1.5ft?  :Grin:

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## eeeeemo

oo i noticed you changed the substrate?? any reasons for that?
the zebras look like they have bunks! lol

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## celticfish

Okay Mr. Lazy is back to answer the questions...
This is the "grow out" with other fish of about the same size bought as wild caught from Taiwan this year in August/September.
Many thanks to two members who helped!!! 
There are 15 new fish from 50.5 to 63 mm plus 7 remaining fish from NKS and Adam's F1's in here.
As mentioned the barracks, bunks, carpark and suburbia "design" (or lack of) is from my Zen concept of minimum effort from keeper!  :Grin: 
Also, the C. pygmaeus have been replaced with C. Hastatus.

@ StanChung,
The bubbles are from the rainbar that is connected to a power head.
It has the air inlet that I leave on which produces the bubbles.

@ genes,
I had thought of that but the nanas would not have provided enough cover as the java ferns.
They dont rot as quick though...  :Grin: 
The Japanese keepers seem to like 2x1.5x1.5 ft tanks for zebras.
Could be a standard tank they use.
I reckon the floor area and volume should be good enough from fry to adult (caveat no crowding of adult sized fish).
GO FOR IT!!!  :Evil: 

@ eeeeemo,
I like the look of sand which made me try it out. 
But it proved to be a "pain" to upkeep.
Lots of maintenance required.
You have to "comb" it on a weekly basis to prevent the sand from compacting.
If it does compact and leftovers are below.... a sulpher bomb is just round the corner for your tank...
I suppose one could try a really thin layer too, that should work fine without compacting.
I was also lucky enough to find the new substrate in an LFS.
Its not unlike sand but the grains are about 1-2 mm and heavy enough to not swirl every where.
Definitely much better!

@ barmby,
Funny you should mention ATM...  :Roll Eyes: 
A new alpha has emerged to breed in this tank last month.
And yours truly was looking at the "adult" tank for action... I thought I would have a good year to wait before these guys are ready.
And this morning another alpha just showed up!  :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy:   :Jump for joy: 
I will update these spawns on thread three - "And the meek shall rise..."
Now if only bruiser can give me a reason to update thread 2...


PS - Have been giving some though about writing a little primer to help newbies starting to keep small plecos too...
And I really need to cull some L-numbers too...  :Mad:

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## johannes

> And I really need to cull some L-numbers too...


hey bro when you have decided to cull some numbers, let me know okay? you know what i've been eyeing... :Razz:

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## EvolutionZ

you culling L134? haha....

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## StanChung

Looks like zebra spring rolls.  :Grin: 
2ft's you say? Gives me an idea on my next tank rack for the future. ahem.

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## doubleace

Very nice tank and nice setup of zen style bro... a 2ft tank is good using for breeding for japanese? :Grin:

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## celticfish

Cheeky cheeky! 
Breeding Japanese in a 2ft huh?...  :Grin: 

Here's a blast from the past.
Though he's dead and gone he's still numero uno for me!
No other zebra alpha male was as good tempered, consistent or caring dad as he.
Here's an ode to Adam.
Even in death his pectoral odontodes is really lush.
You can see he was "off season" from the dropped interopercular odontodes.




Hope rises with a recent new alpha male (thanks eeeeemo!).
This massive bugger is the largest zebra ever in my tanks at 4" TL.
I'll be pondering on a new Christian name for him and her this weekend...

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## eeeeemo

lol! no problem mate.
hope it does well for you. he was only able to breed in your tank.
you must have many sexy females swimming around.

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## celticfish

The more time I spend with these guys (Hypancistrus pleco), the more I think they are like cichilids.
Each have their own chracter and personality.
Such you can have a "good pair" (compatible character) or a "bad pair" (incompatible character).
Very much like discus "bonded" pairs.
Just happened the two that worked out included your "Big Boy"!  :Grin: 
Wriggler count is at 9 pieces.
Whatever the numbers, I'm glade another alpha started!  :Jump for joy: 
Let's see how the two work out.
It looks promising so far as the female hangs out close to his cave.
But the real test is if they really carry on.

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## celticfish

Added eeeeemo's fish on the 24th February and the spawn happened on 19 April.
SWEET!!

Here's is the moster of a zebra. (picture credit to eeeeemo)







So much for old bulls cannot breed...  :Roll Eyes:

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## barmby

Looking good. Big. Very big guy

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## eeeeemo

congrats again! =)
what took you so long to post him up! lol
is he a good father?

----------


## Champ-BKK

congrats Erwin  :Smile:

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## celticfish

414 days pass by and he finally decides to "work" again.
And to add to that during the "out of season" time of the month of June (IMHO) but we've had pretty freaky weather this year, so...
To all the zebra breeder "wannabees", patience is a virtue!  :Laughing: 

This "couple" have frustrated me to no end till now.
Inbetween the two spawn I added other fish and tried every possible combination.
I think in retrospect its the male's "resistence" to spawn.
And the fact that the female "fell in love" with the gigantic fella and decided no other zebras of mine could match it.
She even dropped a spawn of eggs on her own without the male and tended to the eggs till they went bad!  :Exasperated:  
Try and top this for frustration!  :Knockout: 
As with the L173 spawn only the day of hatching can give me a better clue on the laid date.

Oh, the "new" couple has been christianed James and Magdalene. 
I'm lensless at the moment due to a fungal infection... that didn't sound right... :Opps: 
So pictures will come much later.

----------


## johannes

wow...! that's almost one year and 2 months approximately.... amazing

----------


## StanChung

Wow the new season is on. Could be a change in the weather that sparked it off. Some difference in pressure. [or just some privacy!]

----------


## Champ-BKK

Congrat!!!

Mine also turn to spawn yesterday after stop 2 months

----------


## celticfish

@ stan,
I had moved the pair and changed them with various L046 and sex ratios.
Nothing worked!
So I finally took them out into a tank on thier own with some smaller growing Hypancistrus.
One months or so... wallah!
I still cannot figure this pair out.

@ Champ,
I think its normal for them to take a break for a few months.
Adam took a break of about 5 months.
But this fella took a little too loooong...


Back to the fish...
Found wrigglers last night!  :Jump for joy: 
So I reckon they should have laid the eggs on the 3rd of June for a hatch of the wee hours of 8th June.
Estimated date for next brood, cross fingers and toes, should be sometime 1st July.

----------


## barmby

Eh... Do I get some credit ?  :Smile:

----------


## soltari007

> Back to the fish...
> Found wrigglers last night! 
> So I reckon they should have laid the eggs on the 3rd of June for a hatch of the wee hours of 8th June.
> Estimated date for next brood, cross fingers and toes, should be sometime 1st July.


3 June, while we are on the bus la  :Smile:

----------

