# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Catfishes >  genes's pleco tank

## genes

Finally got down to evict the hypancistrus sp. lower xingus and in came the L46.  :Razz: 

The newly setup 3ft. Its quite messy compared to previous scape. 


Caves occupied.


Also, anyone able to sex the following trio?

----------


## khtee

> Also, anyone able to sex the following trio?


middle piece a high chance of female. The other 2 look male to me.

----------


## celticfish

genes,

I'd say all three have a chance at the moment to be female fish.
I have and have had females that look really "beef cake" like.
Interopecular odontodes are not fool-proof indicators too.
Though they have attained a length where you have a good chance to sex them they have not been conditioned enough.
Give them some more time and fish them out for another photo session later on.

----------


## johannes

the most right fish got very very high chance to be male... :Smile:

----------


## genes

Yeah, i reckon so too Johannes. The other 2 smaller pieces seems to move around the tank more when they are not outside the ceramic caves. 1 of it even venture all the way up onto the woods and hide among them sometimes.
I also notice all 3 changing their caves very often since i have 5 caves in the tank. 

3 more pieces coming in tomorrow.

----------


## barmby

I think all males  :Smile:  





Relax, wild guesses...

----------


## genes

I think so too colin.

Here is the other 3. Finally got all 6 into the tank now. Should have been 7 but 1 died before i could transfer the fellow home.

----------


## desmondekker

> I think so too colin.
> 
> Here is the other 3. Finally got all 6 into the tank now. Should have been 7 but 1 died before i could transfer the fellow home.


sorry for your loss. a group of 6 has a good chance of breeding i guess  :Smile:

----------


## benny

Pretty! It's a very nice setup!

Cheers,

----------


## genes

Hope i got a true female this time round. Its around 7cm, same size as my biggest male. Not much odontodes growth on its pectoral fin and short growth on the cheeks. Basically i choose the roundest looking and rounder snout among the 10 pieces. The other 9pieces have a more "V" body similar to my above 6 pieces. So far its behavior has been like a female. It does not cave in the ceramic caves often and yesterday was stalking outside a cave with a male in it. Now it hides among the plants and among the rocks. 

Among the 6pieces, only 2 pieces cave frequently in the caves. The rest seems to prefer to hide among the plants and rocks.

----------


## drakeho

I may be wrong .... Looks boy leh ...  :Smile:

----------


## celticfish

genes,
It's closer to 8cm...
At this size all the male feature are still lacking.
I'd say you probably right about this being a female fish!  :Wink:

----------


## soltari007

You just gotta pump it up, it's easier to see when conditioned  :Very Happy:

----------


## barmby

Pass to me. I help to feed.

----------


## khtee

> You just gotta pump it up, it's easier to see when conditioned


cannot pump lah... later the V become U then how to see? The best is take pic and zoom in to see whether can see the private part or not....

----------


## genes

I have check the private parts too, its does looks rounded and big to me. However, i still can't confirm. Novice here. 

Will stop my collection for now and see what happens in the next 6 months. If not, the search never stops, and so does the spending!  :Laughing:  

Was told long head equals female while i was choosing. But many opinions i heard told me otherwise, hence i chose the opposite. It was tough still because i could see many should be males and the fact that all except this piece have V-shaped body and no profound short snout did not help... Well, keeping my fingers crossed for the next 6 months.  :Razz: 

From Benny's sexing picture. It seems the 2 female in the picture have different traits. The first piece on the left of the picture shows a long snout female while the other shows a very short snout...wah!!! so confusing...

----------


## genes

Suprise suprise, the female has been confirmed a female because she has bred with a male in the tank in less then a week upon introduction. So Irwin, you are so spot on! So now my concern, to remove the eggs now or wait for a week.... 

Tank specs as follows
GH - 120
KH - 0
PH - 6 (using ADA Amazonia below the gravel)
NO2 - 0.5
NO3 - 20
Temp - 33deg

----------


## Champ-BKK

Congrat Gene  :Grin: 
For me leave with Dad a week then remove to hanging box.

----------


## barmby

For me, count the number of days since eggs laid. Day4 removed all eggs from the cave. Because I will let the dad prevent fungus from attacking the eggs. He does it better than me if I put the eggs and aerate in the box.

OH..btw, congratulation. I am happy for you. pass me the fries lei... hahah..

----------


## drakeho

Horray Genes !!!!  :Grin:  Congrates x 100 times !! Master breeder in the making !!!

----------


## desmondekker

wow! congrats bro! very instant indeed. i read on the articles that the father raise them up better than us bro. hee, i guess you got to wait for the experts to advise you

----------


## genes

Thanks guys.

Colin, how do you do the initial egg count? They are being blocked by the father to get any full view of the eggs. Since it was Sunday that the eggs were laid. I was thinking to remove the fries into the aerated breeder box on friday. At around 6 days, they would have hatched into wrigglers so are more easy to monitor as compared to eggs.

Drake, I'm no master breeder. Besides, i think they are not difficult to breed with so many successful stories locally. I never even do anything to incite them to breed. Perhaps i was lucky to find a gravid female. 

I was advised before by afew very helpful bros regarding the use of Amazonia soil as well as planted tank being unnatural for plecos. However, I wanted the tank to be a show tank too so i defied their recommendations. But the lower xingu species and L46 managed to bred in such a setup. So i guess whats demonstrated here is that there is not important to scape to their biotope to get them to breed. Celticfish's caves are definitely a vital point because nothing bred in those slate caves i got from USA. Celticfish's caves have enabled me to breed the lower xingu, L333 and now the L46. 

There are still so much to learn from the experts here
By the way, my tank is also running on CO2 at 2bps for 7hrs a day.

----------


## barmby

Hi Eugene, it is not recommended to count the eggs before it hatched. It is not possible unless you shine the torch. And I don't do that for fear that the male will makan the little ones. Also, once you disturb/lift/move the cave, you have to take out the eggs. However, water change is still ok. If it is routine, it is ok. I always believe in ... the pair being "zai", they can do wonders.. And their fries raising skill is very steady.

There is nothing much you can do until day 4-5 in which the fries will leave the shell. Start counting when you take out the cave and shake everything out..  :Smile: 

I cannot agree more that Celticfish's caves are vital. Once you put it in. They simply can't stop having sex . ahem.. I mean breed.

It is perfect situation. I mean your tank has reached its equilibrium. Planted tank, with CO2, no algae (haha!), zebura, spawn and babies. Wow.

----------


## desmondekker

> I cannot agree more that Celticfish's caves are vital. Once you put it in. They simply can't stop having sex . ahem.. I mean breed.


Laugh Out Loud! sidetrack a bit...my L25 loving the sofa inside celticfish cave

----------


## Ah_ZhaN

Congrats Eugene,

Are your L46 all F0 ??

----------


## doppelbanddwarf

Congrats Eugene. You make fish breeding look so simple. Good luck with the fry!

----------


## genes

Thanks again all.

Zhan, i think you mean F1 right? Yes they are F1s because the adult zebras are all wild.

----------


## celticfish

@ genes,
Nice pick with the female! 
And righfully rewarded!  :Grin: 

I did my egg count "backwards".
From kicked out eggs and wriggler count.
I can't tell if the dad eats some though.

Amazonia is "usable" for zebras.
Though they do breakdown over time.
Since they are smaller sized plecos it should take some time for it to happen.


@ desmonddekker,
I'm glade you didnt get too disheartened from your recent mishap and bounced right back!  :Well done: 
I alway tell people of the "blight" that took away the lives of 10 adult from my colony of 13 then.
Didnt stop me and went right back on acquisition mode!  :Cool: 


Thanks for the comments on the caves!  :Smile: 
But I didn't make them! 
I just imported them as I feel they are the best tools for hobbyist wanting to breed them.
And its the breeding that keeps the interest alive IMHO.

My first success with zebra were slate caves but they were smaller than those from zcliff.
Don't forget he breeds L333 so his cave size is a little bigger.
I did advise someone then who made the previous mass order to be sure they got the smaller ones.
This recent MO they did on AF shows he has got two sizes now.
I still go for the German made ones as I do not want to "reinvent the wheel".
They have been breeding them for the longest time and have had time to refine the tools and process.
Though the caves are not precisely made they are all in the "ballpark" and ready for play!  :Grin:

----------


## jerrywll78

> Suprise suprise, the female has been confirmed a female because she has bred with a male in the tank in less then a week upon introduction. So Irwin, you are so spot on! So now my concern, to remove the eggs now or wait for a week.... 
> 
> Tank specs as follows
> GH - 120
> KH - 0
> PH - 6 (using ADA Amazonia below the gravel)
> NO2 - 0.5
> NO3 - 20
> Temp - 33deg


Hi Genes...i just wondering you tank temp. is 33 deg.?? Maybe in this temp. the pleco will breed??

----------


## Cup

that's a terrible pleco tank--it's far too beautiful.  :Wink:

----------


## genes

Haa...thanks cup. I thought i made a real mess out of the woods and cryptocoryne balansae. 

jerry, not sure about the temperature. I also do 10&#37; water change once every 3 days.

Sharing the same tank is this piece of scarlet. Amazingly, the zebras are more of the bully then this spiky and bigger fellow. The L25 also lost out to the zebras when competing for food. I have to "hand feed" the L25 for fear it may not get to the food at all during feeding time.


And the zebras just killed one of the 3 L144 in the tank. The damage done to the male L144 is pretty savage. Looks like alot of biting going on.

----------


## Champ-BKK

> Haa...thanks cup. I thought i made a real mess out of the woods and cryptocoryne balansae. 
> 
> jerry, not sure about the temperature. I also do 10% water change once every 3 days.
> 
> Sharing the same tank is this piece of scarlet. Amazingly, the zebras are more of the bully then this spiky and bigger fellow. The L25 also lost out to the zebras when competing for food. I have to "hand feed" the L25 for fear it may not get to the food at all during feeding time.
> 
> 
> And the zebras just killed one of the 3 L144 in the tank. The damage done to the male L144 is pretty savage. Looks like alot of biting going on.


Nice fish with Pro-skill to taking a pic.  :Well done:

----------


## genes

Hey guys, need some advice again. I have never poured out fries that are lesser then 2 weeks old before. So when you guys remove the fries with dad wedged inside the cave, you just shake the fellows out? Won't the yoke break or get damaged? How's the usual survival rate of the fries being poured out? I'm also afraid dad starts trashing around and killing all the fries.

Today is the 6th day and i could see wrigglers with yoke sacks in the cave. I am thinking of pouring out because it seems i have another female that looks gravid and keeps on staying around the alpha male thats guarding the clutch. Plus the alpha male now sometimes moves out of the cave with only its head inside which makes me worry. I thought the male suppose to be inside the cave always till the fries become free swimming.

----------


## celticfish

Having only his head out is normal.
They little ones get a little too irritating for dad as they get closer to explusion day 18.
At this time mine was in the middle trying to keep them in.
But the occassional few will escape much earlier (recall lab rat in my thread).
Don't worry about the adult L46.
They treat them like they were invisible.
But I'm not sure about the L144 and L25 though.
Never had other fish in with them.
I reckon as one to 3 day old wrigglers they will very possibly be seen as a meal.
Once they get to day 7 or so, when they look like the adult shape but are still pudgy with the egg sack they should be safe.
At this time they are able to whizz about when threatened.

----------


## genes

Thanks irwin, i'll be removing them in a day or 2. They are all still "bundled" together at the end of the cave and yoke is still present. However, dad is giving them alot of space by keeping his body out of the cave with just the head inside. Any slight movement and he dashes into the cave. Also, he is venturing out to eat when the food drops near him. Very interesting behavior that i have not seen with the lower xingus. And the rest of the colony just eats openly infront of me! Am loving these guys, finally a pleco that i can see everyday, every now and then....

----------


## genes

Harvested 7 fries. Took quite some time to shake the fries out of the cave with dad wedged inbetween them. Think dad got the scare of his life man...

----------


## p.albert

pardon me if i am wrong. 
i was researching about zebras online. 
they said to leave the eggs with the dad? 
so whats the practice? 
also, what is the recommended substrate? 
like what would you guys recommend?

----------


## Cup

Personally, I think pea gravel is the best substrate. I try to keep the fry with the parents until after the yolk has been absorbed. I have found the father to always care for his brood better than I would.

----------


## genes

The fries are so tiny compared to the lower xingus and L333. Will snap some shots soon.

----------


## desmondekker

> Harvested 7 fries. Took quite some time to shake the fries out of the cave with dad wedged inbetween them. Think dad got the scare of his life man...


seventh heaven! mind sharing what do you do after collecting the fries? do you place them in the breeder box?

----------


## desmondekker

> pardon me if i am wrong. 
> i was researching about zebras online. 
> they said to leave the eggs with the dad? 
> so whats the practice? 
> also, what is the recommended substrate? 
> like what would you guys recommend?


hi, i understand from our local breeders that the eggs do get kicked out of the cave. although it's good to leave the eggs with the dad, the aquarist have to standby to take care of those eggs that got rejected. just my 2 cents worth

----------


## genes

Yes desmond. they are in a breeder box in the same tank as the parents.

----------


## genes

Here are my first batch of baby zebbies!


This is the damage done by the zebras. This male L144 had been very territorial himself even though he is smaller then the L46. I guess one of the zebras decided to whack him real hard. Damage seen here, hard spines of the fins been snapped into half, mouth got ripped out, and on the head, a large part of the skin/plates shaved off. He did not survive the onslaught. 



I should name this post... of life and death...haha

----------


## jerrywll78

Hi Genes 
Just curious how is your breeding box looks like, care to take a picture too... :Grin:  & what do you give the pleco fry eat??

----------


## stormhawk

Poor bristlenose, but those baby L46 are coming along fine. New factory for zebras Eugene?  :Grin:

----------


## genes

Factory? I don't think so. I'm just your average hobbyist.

----------


## stormhawk

Well at least it's a factory in your own home for your own enjoyment.  :Wink: 

I read previously that L46 fry are sensitive to water changes? Is this true? I've not seriously kept plecos apart from a random bristlenose some time ago, so I wouldn't know.

----------


## genes

@ jerry
i do not have picture of the breeder box. Its the normal type that cost afew dollars here. And i feed them hikari tabs once they deplete their egg yoke.

@stormhark
Yeah, i was cautioned over that too. My regime is still the same with the fries. Water change about 10% to 15% once every 2 to 3 days depending on how much i feed them.

----------


## desmondekker

> Here are my first batch of baby zebbies!
> 
> 
> This is the damage done by the zebras. This male L144 had been very territorial himself even though he is smaller then the L46. I guess one of the zebras decided to whack him real hard. Damage seen here, hard spines of the fins been snapped into half, mouth got ripped out, and on the head, a large part of the skin/plates shaved off. He did not survive the onslaught. 
> 
> 
> 
> I should name this post... of life and death...haha


 :Shocked: .....................

----------


## p.albert

hey genes, do you plan to like sell any of the future offsprings? like afew months down the road kinda thing.

----------


## barmby

Thanks for sharing the ordeal of male L144. It is an insight.

Water change - try your best to house a tank of water, cycled with fishes and filter the water. Use the water from there. Best if the tank of water has sand. Somehow, tank with fish, filter, sand and good amount of aeration is excellent for daily water change into the fry tank of my 5uckerfishes.

MY water change regime

25% daily
50% twice a week

Feed wisely

----------


## genes

Wah, thats alot of work colin to change water daily. I change water direct from the "diamond" water product. No addition of anti-chlorine or any other additives.

----------


## barmby

Yes, I have to. I am on sponge filtration. And I do not wipe the tank surface, just hope that it cultivate bacteria there

----------


## genes

Wouldn't it be better if you were to leave ceramic rings in the tank as hiding places as well as for bacteria culture? 

Just found an escapee baby in the main tank... and it survived for so many days in the 3ft. Just scooped it up and into the breeder box. That makes my fry count to 8 for this first spawn.

----------


## barmby

genes, thanks for the recommendation. this weekend I am going to do that  :Smile:  thanks..

Good for you. Found another fry. They do zip around like F1 car (quote soltari007)

----------


## genes

2 males kept fighting recently. Scraping the black lines off from each other body. Am i suppose to add more caves? There should be more then enough caves for them currently and not all are occupied everytime.

----------


## desmondekker

learn from a master that fighting is a good sign of breeding.

----------


## drakeho

If there is a pretty girl in the island with 3 guys . I guess the guys would have to fight it out to have the girl right ?  :Grin: 
If you are the girl , I guess you would prefer to make it out with the toughest guy right ?  :Grin: 
I guess same same for pleco too . Hahaha

----------


## soltari007

No wonder all girls want to make out with Drake  :Smile: 

However for zebras, just careful with too many aggro males in the same tank cuz they do not go to jail for killing one of their own kind  :Very Happy:

----------


## drakeho

Hahaha . One small mountain cannot have two lions .  :Grin:

----------


## desmondekker

should be tigers  :Opps:

----------


## genes

> No wonder all girls want to make out with Drake 
> 
> However for zebras, just careful with too many aggro males in the same tank cuz they do not go to jail for killing one of their own kind


Only have 2 males in tank. Damn.... 2 and they still fight. Never experience this with the lower xingus. They are much more peaceful.

----------


## drakeho

Both of them only wants the girls all for himself  :Laughing:  Try line a driftwood to split out different 'mountains' for each of them . It may help .

----------


## eeeeemo

i have had two males in a 2x1.5x1.5..
at first they were like yours.. fighting all the time, one having the attitude that he must dominate the other.

after a while, it all settles down.
alpha started breeding and beta remains subdued and lonely.

after a VERY long while, beta started to realise that he can breed when alpha is occupied with eggs... and so he did it with the other female in the same tank.
what happened was the alpha would try his best to disturb the egg protecting beta when lights go out, making beta eat his own eggs.

that was when i stopped the hobby.

but i believed after a while more... if i hadn't touched them, they will be breeding happily with their females side by side with little conflicts.. as the alpha female always breeds with the alpha male and the beta female occasionally chooses to breed with the beta male in the same tank.

ah i miss zebras.

----------


## genes

Fry update. I lost track of how many months old they are already.

----------


## soltari007

Nice fry pic! How many fries do you have now?

----------


## desmondekker

cute and fat!  :Grin:  good job genes

----------


## genes

From 8 to 6. 1 died of a bloat, 1 from unknown reason. Not only does this specie produce in small numbers, they also seemed to be more sensitive then the other hypancistrus fries.

----------


## eeeeemo

i think only the fries are very sensitive...

i have had many die for no apparent reason.
water quality good, keep up with water changes, feeding well, active.
then one day see it not moving....  :Knockout:

----------


## genes

Ditched the wooden scape to a rock/slate scape for easier maintenance. New scape also caused rumbles between the males for their new prime estate.  :Grin:

----------


## soltari007

it's great weather now for some pleco lurrving right now  :Wink: 

nice tasteful scape btw bro genes  :Smile:

----------


## genes

Time to lower the heater temperature!  :Smile:

----------


## desmondekker

i love java ferns, there's this wild factor about them  :Wink: 

do the plecos climb that high?

----------


## genes

The plants in my tank are all cryptos. I do not have java ferns in the tank. The plecos do hide in the 2nd level caves.

----------


## desmondekker

> The plants in my tank are all cryptos.


thanks for the correction

----------


## celticfish

Nice stacking of the slate and its good you kept the plants!
I have never been able to get myself to do a planted Hypancistrus setup.
And are those bits of BBA I see?!?  :Laughing: 
Crypto... signs of a matured planted tank keeper.  :Wink:

----------


## barmby

1-Not easy to maintain the tank without tripping the slate. 
2-A good job in combining Hypancistrus and plants.
3-C. Balansae can melt for no apparent reason. So it feels good to see them in it.

Lastly, thanks for sharing. The first time when I saw it on the phone, I feel that the basic is there.

----------


## genes

I guess BBA is one if the by products of a pleco tank.  :Laughing: . They are everywhere, on the leaves, on the rocks, on the rainbar...

----------


## genes

I was wondering for the past few days how come my water temperature still maintains at 35degrees even after i reduce the heater settings from 32 to 28. 

And then Horror! Came back and saw a few dead shrimps, glace at thermometer, shows a damming 38degrees!!! I'm frying my zebbies!!! Checked the heater and found a big hole on the glass and water has seeped into the coil and heater starts heating up to some unknown temperature. Previously it must have been damaged already and kept the water at 35degree, today it decided to go mayhem...  :Opps:  Luckily other then some fire red shrimps, there are no other casualties. Hopefully it stays at that...  :Exasperated:

----------


## celticfish

What is the brand of the heater you are using?
Probably broke the glass when you did your rescape.

----------


## genes

I'm using the rena brand. Yeah, maybe during the rescape it got hit.

----------


## iwishweallcouldwin

> I guess BBA is one if the by products of a pleco tank. . They are everywhere, on the leaves, on the rocks, on the rainbar...


For planted pleco tanks - couldn't agree more :Grin: 

Hope your plecos are alright now after the 'heat spell'...

----------


## dwarflala

really cool tank gene! and it's nice talking to you at gc.

----------


## genes

Its the season to be jolly... fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la

With the spawning activities happening in our fellow AQ member's tank, my zebbies are also doing their thing as i speak

2hours and still in the making despite a water temperature of about 30-31degrees without water change for the past 3 days. Feeding regime is just hikari carni tabs once a day. 

Tank mates includes, 1x ruby tetra, 2x corydoras concolor, 8x corydoras pygmeaus, 2x farlowella, 6x ottocinclus, 2X L181, 1x L25, many cherry shrimps

----------


## riltz

congrates!!! anyway i usually change my water only once a week! haha

----------


## hanz0my

isn't it tra-la-la-la-la instead? 

by the way am i going to get pressie from father santa?  :Angel:

----------


## RoyEight

Your tank dosen't looked like a 3Ft, look bigger, anyway beautiful setup!

----------

