# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Anabantoids >  Betta macrostoma

## Svein

Hello folks
I'm lucky? getting a trio of this mythical species during the summer time.

So if some of you have any experience with them it had been nice hearing from you. I breed wild Betta, but i haven't found much lecture about Betta macrostoma, so any help i will be grateful for.
The only thing i know, this will be a difficult job  :Smile:   :Sad:  
Regards
Svein

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## stormhawk

Yes I would say that you are VERY lucky.  :Laughing:  

They must have cost you a fortune. However there's one problem. From my observations of macrostomas I've seen in the shops some time back, there are always a number of sub-dominant males that tend to look like females and have confused many keepers.

Somebody here in SG has bred them in normal tap-water although I must say, those breeders were acclimatised and were F1 from wild pairs that belonged to the owner.

Since its a mouthbrooder and has a big gaping mouth, I would say that it is an ambush predator and the mouthbrooding period should be similar to Betta unimaculata.

Ron has bred two mouthbrooders - simplex and unimaculata - so I suppose he's the best person to help you along. I believe he's been dreaming of the macrostoma for a long time too.  :Laughing: 

Website of a Bruneian keeper of the macrostoma:

http://uk.geocities.com/mohdnooradnin/

By the way, we affectionately call them Big Mac locally.  :Laughing: 

On a side note I just bought some coccina, well that's what the shopowner said the supplier imported them as, from a shop that I frequent. Got them cheap though I'm not sure of the sexes. There's many more where those came from.  :Very Happy:

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## Svein

Tanks a lot Jianyang, everything helps  :Smile:  
I think I can manage bubble nest Betta, but i haven't kept mouthbrooder ever, so I starting on a high levels  :Confused:  

i will use a combination between UV and RO getting the water I want, together using peat in the filter.

Yes they cost a lot of dollars  :Sad:  so this is madness, but I have to try them one time.

Hope Ron can give some general information about mouthbrooder  :Opps:  
Regards
Svein

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## stormhawk

For mouthbrooders the easiest species to start with is generally pugnax but then again even the tank-bred specimens of simplex are also easy to start with.

Yes you're starting on a high level but the risks are always present so I'll applaud you for having the courage to take on the challenge and also for your preparations in housing the macrostomas.

Many people keep rare fish without even knowing how to keep and feed them right in the first place. At least you did your research beforehand.  :Wink:  

What I do recall about mouthbrooders is that they generally take anywhere from 10 to 14 days to release the fry. They don't require much space to breed and live in actually. Even a medium plastic tank about 25cm in length is good enough for a pair of unimaculata and simplex as I've seen from Ron's setup.

Another member of the forum who current has unimaculata fry is retro_gk aka Rahul, from India. He just had a new batch of fry appear. Perhaps he can help you out too. 

Last resort for information, the Anabantoid Association of Great Britain (AAGB).  :Wink:

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## stormhawk

Here's the AAGB website URL:

http://www.aagb.org/

There's also a thriving community of anabantoid keepers in France, Holland and Germany. Perhaps they could help you out.

Another person to contact would be Jesper Thorup from Denmark:

http://www.fishbreeding.dk

He still has Betta albimarginata "Malinau" and this is on par with the macrostoma in terms of difficulty in sexing some times and also in terms of housing and feeding.

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## Svein

I think some of the exiting with this hobby is the researching, and when you use 300 dollar, then you need to do it  :Opps:  

I'm well known to these clubs, and Jesper is a friend of mine,whom I going to visist this summer getting wild betta spl .

I've got Betta persephone from him last year, and now I have 2 breeding pair, and have about 30 fries, not an easy species i think, but a lovely Betta.
A couple pictures:

male



spawning, sorry for the quality, but the water is very dark

Regards
Svein

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## stormhawk

Wow! Again stunning photographs. =D> 

_Betta persephone_ aka the Batman Betta is one species that I would like to keep sometime in the future, that is, when space permits.  :Laughing: 

If you meet Jesper, tell him the guys in Singapore said Hi!.  :Wink:

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## stormhawk

Further data I took from other forums where Betta breeders are active.

Originally posted by 400K (Peter) in Petfrd.com




> _when it's time for the fries to come out. either put the male in a quarantine tank or
> lock up the rest of the macros coz they will eat the fries.
> 
> try to take out the fries when the male discharge them.
> when he has let go of all his fries, he will eat his own fries.
> 
> turn off filter if any and clear the tank of objects like drift wood, plants etc..
> becoz they like to take cover.look hard and close becoz they are veri good in hiding and very tiny.
> 
> ...


Another breeder keeps his in a 2ft tank filtered with a sponge filter with pH slightly around 6.5.

User 400K (Peter) further states that the fry should appear after 17 to 18 days incubation in the father's buccal cavity.

I hope the info has been of use to you.  :Wink:

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## hwchoy

Svein, shoot for this one next  :Smile:

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## retro_gk

Hi,
As Stormhawk mentioned, I just had a batch of _unimaculata_ fry. They are a week old post release now.

I have a sort of diary up on the aquaworld anabantid forums:
http://aquaworld.netfirms.com/phpBB2...opic.php?t=569

This is my first mouthbrooding betta spawn, very painless in the end, fry ate microworms from day 1...my only fear was the male swallowing the eggs/fry. It was unfounded, he was a model dad!!

Now to start saving up for them _macrostomas_  :Wink:  

BTW Choy, is _ocellata_ considered a valid species?? The IBC site has them listed as a junior synonym. From what I see, _ocellata_ has blue scales, vs green in _unimaculata_.

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## hwchoy

Yes it is a valid species. The junior synoym in IBC refers to _Betta occellata_ *non* de Beaufort, whatever that's supposed to mean  :Confused:

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## retro_gk

Hmm, so what are the definitive identifying characters for _B. ocellata_

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## Svein

> If you meet Jesper, tell him the guys in Singapore said Hi!.


I will  :Smile:  and I will try to get him into this forum, he is a clever man  :Smile:  

All the input is to great help, I put it into my b macrostoma file  :Wink:  




> Svein, shoot for this one next


if I had place enough I should have much more Betta, but I have to give priority to my Killis  :Smile:  
Tanks folks for the help, and I will come with feedback when somthing happens.
Regards
Svein

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## MrTree

> Hmm, so what are the definitive identifying characters for _B. ocellata_


The biggest difference with the real _B.unimaculata_ would be the colors & head shape, _B.unimaculata_ are small species.

As for _B.macrostoma_, I can't really comment as I never had one in my tanks at home but I know someone who's keeping them in a 1.5 ft tank, only aeration, water change is using mineral water, the pair spawned a couple times and the fries came out too. 

Cheers,

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> Yes it is a valid species. The junior synoym in IBC refers to _Betta occellata_ *non* de Beaufort, whatever that's supposed to mean


From what I understand, it means that at some point people mistakenly identified some _B. ocellata_ as _B. unimaculata_.

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## Svein

I haven't got any B. macrostoma yet, but I have got a good compensation; *Betta albimarginata " Malinau"* I got 2 pair from Germany, and I'm very happy with them.

Here is one of the male:



Regards
Svein

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## Svein

A little updating.

The male you see the picture carried eggs for 17 days, and now I have 13 fry. They are 27 days . This is my first mouthbrooder ever, and I have to say, this is very interesting!
here is one of my fry hunting artemia  :Smile:  


Regards
Svein

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## stormhawk

The albimarginata is a beautiful but expensive species here in Singapore. We have breeders that have had quite a fair share of success with this species. I suppose yours came from Michael Schlüter?

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## Svein

yes this species comes original from Michael, but I didn't buy them from him.
I'm agree, i think this species is overpriced.
Regards
Svein

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## RonWill

Svein, the price for any fish is subjective. Boils down to how much one is willing to pay for them.

I was working on the albi but someone made me a handsome 3-figure offer I couldn't resist. As it turned out, everyone was happy.

For now, I have devoted a tank for a young wild-caught pair of Macs. Needless to say, I'm fattening them up and will be working hard at it. Also making room for an additional pair from another location.

 

oh... did I mention my fat pair of _Betta channoides_?  :Rolling Eyes:

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## Svein

Ron, thats right, and in my subjective view, it's expencive paying 150 dollar or euro for a species whos quite easy to breed.
I hope you will tell us betta fan how the progress become for your macks  :Wink:  This is my next goal, but I haven't the guts yest.
Regards
Svein

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## timebomb

> Needless to say, I'm fattening them up and will be working hard at it. 
> oh... did I mention my fat pair of _Betta channoides_?


Ronnie,

You may want to re-consider what you are doing. Obesity isn't good for Bettas. A Betta breeder told me recently that if the female is too fat, the male wouldn't be able to curl his body around hers. In other words, he won't be able to squeeze the eggs out of her.

Just as in humans, fat female Bettas are less desirable  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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## RonWill

Kwek Leong,
As a former betta hobbyist, I'm well aware of the obesity issue but thanks for the reminder. So let me just rephrase.... my fishes are well fed!  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  

Svein,
It's my first venture with such pricey bettas and if all goes well, you'll be informed. Afterall, you have some nice killies I'm drooling over  :Wink:  

Doesn't take alot of guts either.... I go with the motto "NEVER TRY, NEVER KNOW" [MY other favourite is Nike's slogan, "JUST DO IT!"]

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## RonWill

Svein,
By now, the macs respond well during feeding time when I tap on the netting directly over the worm feeder. They'll come up-front, waiting eagerly. Today, how strange... I didn't see the male.

The female was already enjoying a rather *large tubifex (blackworm??)* but I was getting worried that the male might be sick... GOSH!!!

When he finally appeared, my guts nearly dropped....

Rushed away to grab my digicam and shot a few quick pics but the reflection from nearby objects resulted in poor images.

I went nearer...
  

Although the pics were quite blurry, it was a costly intrusion. He obviously didn't like the flashes going off and shortly after, was eating again.

*Damned!* He just swallowed a mouthful of eggs!!!  :Evil:   :Sad:   :Crying:  Sorry folks, no more pics of brooding daddy next time.

In my eagerness, lost the first batch but I will await their next breeding cycle and remain hopeful, to be able to show pics of their little buggers.

<sob!> Oh well... try again... [someone pass me a hankie] <sob!>

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## stormhawk

::smt021:  Aww you spooked the poor fella. They don't like sudden intrusions into their privacy.

That "big tubifex" that might be a "blackworm", I usually remove those when I come across them during rinses for the tubifex. I used those primarily to condition my previous bunch of angelfishes for breeding but I found them to be too large for most of my fishes.

I don't like their look either so I chuck most of them away when I come across them that is. Either that or they become turtle food for my brother's pet softshell turtle.  :Twisted Evil:

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## Svein

Ron
This is a picture I should very much by my self should see  :Smile:  (at my home)

I have found out afte 3 litters with albimarginata; when the male don't arrive to the feeding time, he carry eggs, and I remove female and cover at once the tank.
The result is 40 youngsters.

Next time Ron, next time  :Wink:  
Good luck
Regards
Svein

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## RonWill

Svein,
Unless the parents are proven to be egg or fry eaters, despite having sufficient food, I'd rather leave the pair together and allow the young ones to grow up within the same tank.

The _Betta unimaculata_ and _B. simplex_ were prolific within 6gal tanks and I remove fry monthly during water changes.

Here's a greedy group of unimacs in a grow-out partition.


BTW, I just learnt that my pair of macs were wild-caughts from Sarawak.

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## RonWill

Folks,
After my pair of mac swallowed the eggs a 2nd time, I decided that comes a third spawning, I'll strip the eggs and see how many are actually viable.

Two hypothesis. One is that the pair is still young and usually need time to perfect parental skills. 2nd, could be that the male swallowed non-viable eggs to save the rest.

Nov 19th. The stripping process was short and sweet, and collected quite a nice number of 2mm eggs. Care was taken not to overly-stress the adult male.

Color of the eggs is more opaque than I'm used to but looks good, and water incubated them with moderate aeration and a very light tint of methylene blue (MB).

Two days later, using back-lighting, more than half the eggs aren't gonna make it.

In case I was wrong, those opacified eggs were siphoned out and incubated separately with a slightly heavier dose of MB. Will attempt closer shot of the developing eggs.

Comments on incubation period?

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## KillieOrCory

Good luck Ron  ::smt023:  

It all boils down to temperature of the water I suspect. I find the incubation period of my channoides varies upto 10 days between each spawn.

Sometimes the male releases them within two weeks sometimes take 10 days longer. I suspect the fry are fully developed for number of days before the male releases them. So with all going well your incubation period should be relatively brief; ~2weeks or less. But since I never kept macs I could be wrong!

Cheers,

Serkan

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## nonamethefish

I've been observing this thread and now have got a few questions.

How are you incubating those eggs Ronnie? I've heard of people artificially incubating Tropheus eggs in a sort of tumbler to try to mimic the parents care.

Also, what temperature do you keep your unimaculata at?

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## RonWill

Serkan,
All the eggs collected on Nov 19th turned white and most started disintegrating by the 3rd day. I'm not sure what happened to those that 'looked ok' (in the backlit image) but they went bad as well. It could have been a case of mis-handling but having many eggs in one container isn't a good idea.

Pair spawned for the 4th time yesterday morning (Dec 1st) and again, I'm attempting artificial incubation with the harvested 68 eggs. This time in 3 separate containers and in different waters (one of them in pH4 peat water). I suspect that the eggs *might* be light sensitive and *might* need high O² to develop properly, so another lot of 20 eggs is in a darkened vessel with strong aeration. [I say _*might*_ because I don't have a damn clue where I'm heading!  :Opps:  ]

One good sign, throughout all the bad, is that the male was still brooding the eggs on the 2nd day. On previous spawns, he would have swallowed them already. For his 5th attempt at fatherhood, I'll leave him with Mother Nature and just observe from afar.

At this point, I'd want to say that the pair has been very well behaved, no fights, no squabbles and maturing very nicely. I'm very hesitant to remove the female after spawning as this peaceful cohabitation may changed once reunited again after the fry are released (ie, if I ever get to see the fry). Suggestions?

Joseph,
The last lot of eggs were incubated simply in a large container with strong aeration. This time, I DIY'ed a egg-tumbler but over-estimated the netting grid. That didn't work as eggs were slipping through the netting material. I'll try something else with smaller gaps and see if that works any better.

My entire lot of unimac's was distributed to two betta hobbyists but while the pair and juvenile were with me, average temps was between 25~29ºC. You keeping any of these?

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## RonWill

Just a brief update for those following the thread. All the eggs, in 3 containers, didn't make it. The low pH stopped fungal growth but it's obvious that none are viable.

Next time the male mouthbroods, I'm leaving him to do his job and until I see fry in his tank, I'm not going to strip him again.

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## nessa

So sorry to hear about that, RonWill. Macs are fantastic bettas. I'm intending to get a pair or trio later. I do have smaragdinas which I spawned 3 months ago.

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## nonamethefish

Ron: Sorry to hear about the eggs...hopefully this time around is better.

I have not kept any of the bettas besides a few splendens, but they do seem to be interesting fish. 2 fish I wish were more commonly available would be Macropodus "concolor"(now M. spechtii) and Psuedophromenus.

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## nonamethefish

Check this out 
http://aquaworld.netfirms.com/phpBB2...er=asc&start=0

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## RonWill

Joseph,
Thanks for the link. I've been following Merrilyn's (aka "ladyred") postings but in other local forums. Must admit I'm very envious.

Still, I can't figure what else to do except that at one point, I was caring for 4 pairs of macs (a friend asked to help condition his 2 pairs). All 4 males have mouthbrooded in my setups, only to swallow everything over the next few days. Not sure if removing the female is absolutely necessary but I'll do that next time.

For the Pseudosphromenus, I did an image search with Google and found it confusing. *This particular fella* looks more like the *Malpulutta kretseri* pair which I'm trying to breed.

For a brief period, I had a pair of wild-caught Paradise Fish (Macropodus opercularis) from China, which had real tiny fry. I gave that up to someone who has the time to better care for them than I. Incidentally, I stumbled onto *your page* too!  :Wink:  

Nessa,
Do give the macs a go when opportunity present itself as they are responsive and when they 'yawn', they really do have BIG mouths! (good culling machine  :Twisted Evil:  )

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## keehoe

Hi all, just a stupid question. Do you see eggs in the fish mouth when they yawn?

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## RonWill

:Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:  not a stupid question really but they don't 'yawn' when mouth brooding.... just like I don't talk with my mouth full at the dining table  :Wink:

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## turaco

This is my Mac male I aquired a month ago. Young pair from C328. Today, the male is found brooding! Didn't expect it to be so soon as the male is not showing its full colour yet. The male used to be very showy but had been hiding quite a lot now. On the other hand, the female which I hardly see is now out. I'll leave them as usual & see what turns out.

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## RonWill

Gan, the male doesn't look like it's brooding unless the spawn is small for the first timer. If the 'throat' swells like the edited pic and he starts to 'gargle', that's when the fun begins. Good luck.

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## turaco

Ron that was the male a month ago. I've noticed the swelling & 'gargle' when he's out. No picture now definitely  :Smile:  .

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## stormhawk

Gan, that's nice to know that your macrostoma male is mouth-brooding. Good luck and I hope to hear that you've got fry being released.  :Wink:

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## turaco

Found my female mac dead. No physical wound. Male still around.  :Crying:

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## Jon in SW Ohio

Sorry to see that Gan.

I know a guy in New York who has successfully bred macrostoma on a couple occasions. As far as I know he's the only person to do it in the US. He is the same guy I got my channoides from.

If you would like his contact info, let me know, he's a very generous person and I'm sure he would be glad to share his methods.

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## turaco

Either mine not fully mature yet or this particular type just won't colour up as intensely as seen in some pictures. Both fish stay in their dull colour, showing the bars on their bodies most of the time, except in the midddle of the night when I shine a light to 'check' on them do they show some real colour. In fact that female shown its best colour when dead!

The only 'stupid' thing I did recently is adding more peat to lower the pH, hopefully to bring out the colour, & feeding them small guppies. The female seems to love it, swallowed up quite a fair bit.

Jon, thanks for your offer, It will be nice if your friend can join the forum here & share his valueable ways of breeding the mac. As of now, I need to source for another female or get another pair if my pocket allows  :Rolling Eyes: . My feeling now in 'Singlish'- Heart pain.  :Crying:   :Crying:

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## turaco

The remaining male 5 months under my care.

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## zep_betta

i cant acess your website, but how much would a juvenile betta persepherone be?

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## myaquaticspace

My betta fry living together with a bunch of neon tetra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9eoJXAxsSI&t=43s

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