# Planted Tanks > Beginners' Corner >  looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

## myhui

Maybe Tom Barr can come take a look? I'm in Lake Forest, in SoCal.

This is an unusual post for this forum, I would readily admit, since everyone else tries to solve their own problems here. But I'm just too new to this hobby, and I haven't been able to devote enough time to read through all the books (even though I have bought most of the books) and diagnose my problem.

I have a low tech, Walstad-style tank, with ADA Amazonia substrate, in a 17 gallons ADA Cube Garden 60-P. Two outflow tubes, two inflow Lily Pipes, UV sterilizer, a very small Syncra Silent 700 l/h - 1.350 l/h recirculation pump, and a heater set to 68F minimum temp. The only lighting is direct afternoon sun.


Here are two shots of the tank as it stands this afternoon. The light is coming from the back of the tank. It's pushed up against a west facing window. The neon tetras seem very happy. They go to nap when I'm not around. But once they see me and they see the blue Fluval Tropical Flakes bottle, they go into hyperactive mode and just zip around the tank looking for the flakes. I never remove any water. To add water, I use tap water mixed with Seachem Prime as conditioner to get rid of the harmful chemicals. Notice the dangling roots at the top of the tank. That's from the full cover of floating plants at the top of the tank. I also had a liberal sprinkle of crushed oyster shells imported from Canada.


The fish survival history is as follows:


June 2014: bought six neon tetras and three snails from PetSmart Tustin Market Place, 2741 El Camino Real, Tustin, CA 92782. Five tetras were adult-sized (2cm long), one was a baby (1cm long). At that time, the plants in the tank were already established to 80% of what you see here. The tank has been going by itself without any livestock for many months to get it to this state. I wanted to make sure it's a "good environment" for fish before letting fish swim in it.


A few days later, one adult disappeared. I never found its body.


For the next several months, the fish seems happy.


One snail disappeared soon after going into the tank.


Two other snails were crawling all over the place. There were snail births already. I can see at least three baby snails up to 5mm diameter a month ago.


Then three weeks ago one snail tried to crawl over the top of the tank. I was lucky to be right there, and caught it as it flipped over the side of the tank. I checked its appearance, and everything seems fine. So I plunked it back into the tank. It moved to the sunward corner, and then it didn't move anymore. I think it's dead now. But, before that happened, a lot of tiny white dots kept crawling out of its body. All of them were tiny baby snails. Quite a few survived. Maybe the tetras ate the rest?


At about that same time, three weeks ago, one out of the four remaining adult tetras disappeared.


So we're down to three adults and one baby tetra.


Today, the baby died, and that's what caused me to take this drastic step to make this post.


I did a water test immediately this morning. Ammonia and Nitrate testing showed minimal levels; the color strips matched the lowest concentration's color.

I do have green hair algae growing all the time. I do manual removal with a toothbrush every week. Despite the huge amount of plants, and a small amount of livestock, but with plentiful sun, the algae still wins out.

Michael Hui
949-510-3241
[email protected]

----------


## myhui

pH is 7.4 as of tonight.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

I don't think you need an expert to visit your place to diagnose the issues with your tank... though it'll be fun if Tom Barr could pop by your place and give this advice.  :Grin: 

Based on your test strip measurements, the parameters look okay, though you have to consider that test strips aren't very accurate. I have used test strips before and the results can be very different from liquid tests kits (ie. test strip indicate 0 ammonia but liquid test shows 2ppm). I find the measurement variations tend to be simply too wide for test strips to be of much reliable use.

Since your tetras lived for a few months before you started seeing one or two of them die a few weeks apart, the ones that died could either be old or just weak/sick. Younger fishes tend to be more sensitive than adult fishes, so there is also a higher chance of them dying too. 

Its not like they all died at once (which would indicate something bad in the tank), the other fishes look healthy and active right? So in this case it shouldn't be much cause for concern.

Note that if you are running a Walstad style tank without an actual filter (that has filter media/sponges which can be cleaned regularly), an incredible amount of waste and organic compounds will accumulate inside the tank itself (in essence the tank itself becomes the filter chamber, containing months and years of waste material), and since you don't do any water changes (only top ups), the total dissolved solid (TDS) levels will increase steadily over time... eventually, the water will retain very high levels of chemicals, metals and accumulated dissolved organic compounds, some of which could affect the livestock.

If you are keen to know the TDS of your tank water, you could buy a TDS meter to test it (can buy from aquarium shops or order from amazon.com for less then $20).

Do be aware that neon tetras prefer low pH softwater (low TDS) conditions, so the higher pH and possibly high TDS environment in your tank may not be as optimal for them, which may result in weaker health (even though they may adapt to such conditions over time).

Algae growing in your tank is expected... when you use sunlight as the light source for your tank and plants, all the variables of weather fluctuations and changing light intensity come into play. These variations will also affect the condition of the plant growth and water conditions. 

What if there were a series of cloudy or rainy days without much light? The plants photosynthesize less and take in alot less nutrients, perhaps the ammonia levels might rise during those days? Those are the environment variables we can't control. Its very different from a controlled environment like in a conventional planted tank with consistent light intensity and a fixed schedule.

Since its a "El Natural" setup, there is also no Co2 injection or fertilizer dosing in the tank too, so the plants overall growth and nutrient take up rate (even if they are fast growing plants) are still restricted by the limited carbon supply and specific nutrient deficiencies in the tank.

Algae can adapt way faster than plants and thrive when it comes to such variable conditions, as they need even less complete nutrients and less carbon to grow rapidly compared to the plants.

I'm a big fan of the Walstad natural planted tank concept, i have her book and have read it cover to cover too, but it is indeed a challenge to maintain a structured predictable tank environment using the "El Natural" walstad method. I've also tried running similar tank setups too and there will always tend to be a certain wild look to such tanks... complete with algae too.  :Very Happy:

----------


## myhui

My test results come from using liquid test kits.

Do you notice any algae growth on the surface of the soil in my pictures? I think there is some. If so, what is the remedy?

----------


## limz_777

never seen tom barr did a Walstad-style tank before , maybe you can pm him to chime in .

----------


## myhui

> never seen tom barr did a Walstad-style tank before , maybe you can pm him to chime in .


I agree with you.

I knew this would be intellectually awkward.

----------


## myhui

I can smell rotten eggs in the afternoon if the morning has been sunny.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> My test results come from using liquid test kits.


Oic... i saw you mention "color strips" in your post so i thought it was test strips.  :Very Happy: 

If its based on liquid test kit, then your parameters look fine.





> Do you notice any algae growth on the surface of the soil in my pictures? I think there is some. If so, what is the remedy?


Yeah, i do see algae on the soil surface... can't really advise much on algae control in a walstad style tank, other than adding more plants, reducing sunlight exposure (shift the tank or use curtains) or just manually removing the algae.

Honestly... without filter, no water changes, no Co2 injection, no fertilizer dosing, using sunlight as light source etc... all the odds are stacked against the plants and in favor of the algae, its just too "El Natural". Its basically a micro version of an outdoor pond environment with the same conditions, there will naturally be lots of algae everywhere, its part of the natural ecosystem.  :Grin: 





> never seen tom barr did a Walstad-style tank before , maybe you can pm him to chime in .


Thats why it'll be fun to see his response to the tank.  :Laughing:

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> I can smell rotten eggs in the afternoon if the morning has been sunny.


The stinky rotten eggs smell comes from hydrogen sulphide released by the tank's bacteria as it breaks down organic matter in the absence of oxygen, usually from the anaerobic bacteria living inside the substrate (sometimes you may see small bubbles floating up from the substrate to the water surface, that's the hydrogen sulphide).

This probably happens in your tank because the thick soil substrate has compacted over the months and there aren't many plants with deep roots in the substrate to help aerate the soil, so the soil becomes anaerobic/oxygen deficient.

The heat from the sunny morning probably warms the water and increases the anaerobic bacteria activity, hence more stinky bubbles.  :Grin:

----------


## myhui

Any suggestion for hardy plants that'll put down deep roots? Your analysis is spot on regarding anaerobic processes going on deep inside the soil.

Swords don't work. I've tried too many. Hornworts obviously work, but they don't drill enough roots into the soil.

----------


## mUAr_cHEe

> Any suggestion for hardy plants that'll put down deep roots? Your analysis is spot on regarding anaerobic processes going on deep inside the soil.
> 
> Swords don't work. I've tried too many. Hornworts obviously work, but they don't drill enough roots into the soil.


Hygrophila difformis works for me.

----------


## myhui

> Hygrophila difformis works for me.


Very nice.



Do I need to be very picky about where to buy the plant?

----------


## myhui

I put in a water heater recently, set to 70F minimum. That may have contributed to the problem.

Before, I had no heater, even though the room would be heated for human inhabitants so it rarely dropped below 64F.

But now I realize the lower minimum temp overnight must have helped to keep the daytime max temp from getting too high simply due to thermal inertia.

Should I go without the heater then?

----------


## mUAr_cHEe

Sorry but I do not have any experience about LFSes in your the States but I do love your sunny state. I would think that any green and healthy specimen would be fine.

----------


## mUAr_cHEe

> I put in a water heater recently, set to 70F minimum. That may have contributed to the problem.
> 
> Before, I had no heater, even though the room would be heated for human inhabitants so it rarely dropped below 64F.
> 
> But now I realize the lower minimum temp overnight must have helped to keep the daytime max temp from getting too high simply due to thermal inertia.
> 
> Should I go without the heater then?


64F is a little too low. Emulating our tropical conditions here, I think the temperature should not drop before 69F.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> Any suggestion for hardy plants that'll put down deep roots? Your analysis is spot on regarding anaerobic processes going on deep inside the soil.
> 
> Swords don't work. I've tried too many. Hornworts obviously work, but they don't drill enough roots into the soil.


Although its a "sword" plant, you could try _Echinodorus tenellus_ (aka pygmy chain sword, if you haven't tried them yet), they are fast easy growers with a grassy look, and they put down really long roots.

Can also try _Blyxa japonica_, its actually a stem plant but looks like a rosette plant as it grows in nice round bushes. It also put down long thick roots.

Cryptocorynes would also be a good choice too (ie. _Cryptocoryne wendtii_ is a hardy variant and easy to grow), they are slower growers and take more time to adapt to a tank, but when they do establish, they will create really large root systems.

Ultimately, whether those plants do well in your tank would still depend on the light, carbon and nutrient availability (if they don't get sufficient balance of any of them, they will still grow poorly and deteriorate), so you'll just have to try and see.

----------


## myhui

> Cryptocorynes would also be a good choice too (ie. _Cryptocoryne wendtii_ is a hardy variant and easy to grow)


I have tried Cryptocoryne wendtii lots of times. Their leaves go transparent and that's the end of the plant.

I once had these thick stemmed grass grow with a lot of deep roots. But they became so entwined with the green hair algae that I had to rip out the grass with the algae. Come to think of it, that was a bad move, as those roots were doing a lot of good down there.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> I have tried Cryptocoryne wendtii lots of times. Their leaves go transparent and that's the end of the plant.


For cryptocorynes, its common for their leaves to melt when planted into a tank due to their slower transition to new environments, but as plants that store nutrient reserves in their rhizomes, they will usually re-grow new healthy adapted leaves... so you should just leave them in the substrate and let them grow back out again (just remove the older melted leaves to reduce organic waste polluting the tank). 

The transition process for these plants tends to be slow, so it may look like the plant is dead, but in fact it may still be okay. Just got to give it more time, especially in a low-tech el natural tank environment.

----------


## myhui

> just remove the older melted leaves to reduce organic waste polluting the tank.


I have left them in there, but most don't grow back.

I've read in Walstad's book that dead leaves are OK to leave in the tank. Is that true in practice?

I have done the occasional clipping of old hornwort branches that have lost their color, but nothing beyond that.

I know the pH is stable due to the oyster shells I've sprinkled in there.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> I have left them in there, but most don't grow back.


They can take a long time to recover and grow back, especially in a low-tech tank, they are putting more energy into growing roots and taking nutrients from the soil for storage, once they are ready then they start putting resources into growing leaves, so you just have to wait (i've had crypts in my grow-out tank that had zero leaves, all melted away, nothing happen for a few months, then one day i see tiny fresh leaves grow out, after that it quickly grew into large bunches over the subsequent months).

Alot of people lose patience after seeing the bare rhizome for a few weeks and just throw them out, but actually they should just be left alone to recover.




> I've read in Walstad's book that dead leaves are OK to leave in the tank. Is that true in practice?
> 
> I have done the occasional clipping of old hornwort branches that have lost their color, but nothing beyond that.


For the walstad method, since there is no fertilizer dosing and no water changes, leaving the dead leaves in a tank is mainly to allow it to rot and release nutrients back into the water column... but that also carries the issues of algae taking advantage of those excess nutrients and growing more rapidly around those areas with dead plant matter. So its a trade-off.

----------


## myhui

> nothing happen for a few months, then one day i see tiny fresh leaves grow out, after that it quickly grew into large bunches over the subsequent months)


I have one bunch in there that has new leaves growing, but it's very slow, and doesn't seem like a robust growth at all 

Based on your comments, I can put in a few bunches of water wisteria and cryptocorynes in there, since both types have healthy root growth, and trim back the hornworts.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> I have one bunch in there that has new leaves growing, but it's very slow, and doesn't seem like a robust growth at all 
> 
> Based on your comments, I can put in a few bunches of water wisteria and cryptocorynes in there, since both types have healthy root growth, and trim back the hornworts.


The water wisteria will adapt and grow way faster than the cryptocorynes (in good conditions, water wisteria growth can usually be measured in days and weeks), so it'll be the plant that will have a more immediate effect in terms of improving the substrate condition. The cryptocorynes will usually take months to grow out, so they would be more of a longer term solution.

The growth rate and condition of such plants in a low-tech tank will still be much slower and less robust than in a high-tech tank, so just have to be patient.

Just an additional point, i'm not sure if the lower 17-21°C (64-70F) temperature in your tank affects the transition and growth of cryptocorynes... so far i've only grown them in tanks with 28-30°C (82-86F), our local weather tends to stay warm throughout the year. Maybe the temperature have some effect on their growth since they are tropical plants.

----------


## myhui

> I'm not sure if the lower 17-21°C (64-70F) temperature in your tank affects the transition and growth of cryptocorynes... so far i've only grown them in tanks with 28-30°C (82-86F), our local weather tends to stay warm throughout the year. Maybe the temperature have some effect on their growth since they are tropical plants.


At 10:15pm here, room temperature is measured at 21.0C. Tank water temperature is measured at 25.0C, with the heater's control set to 68F. Thus, minimum water temperature throughout the night will not go lower. I hope that's just right.

I will add two power heads to pull water from near the soil surface to the top of the tank where it'll contact fresh air. The propeller is pointed straight up so as to avoid creating too much water current.

----------


## limz_777

for a start , you can tidy up the free floater plants , sunlight might be block by it

----------


## myhui

> for a start , you can tidy up the free floater plants , sunlight might be block by it


The light comes in at 45 degrees.

This window is close to another building, so any direct light is blocked until around 2pm.

But indirect light is quite good throughout the day, since that building reflects the light onto the tank.

I thought more plants are always good. I read that the floaters clean up any harmful metals in the water.

----------


## limz_777

yes more plants is good , but it look more pleasing if nicely arranged ?

----------


## myhui

> yes more plants is good , but it look more pleasing if nicely arranged ?


I take the biologist's view that good quality water and healthy fish are the only things that matter.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> I take the biologist's view that good quality water and healthy fish are the only things that matter.


Based on that viewpoint, then you also shouldn't be worried about seeing algae in the tank and trying to remove them... they are effectively helping to take up excess nutrients and lights that your other plants are not able to utilize and producing oxygen too. Algae are part of the natural eco-system and have been doing this for the past 2+ billion years.  :Grin:

----------


## myhui

The algae is killing the plants since they block the light.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> The algae is killing the plants since they block the light.


True... though biologically speaking, the organism that can adapt the best will take over an eco-system, and algae is the most adaptable... so it'll naturally take over plants which are not as hardy or adaptable as them. If algae take over a tank, they'll still do the same jobs as the plants in cleaning the water. Just that us aquarists prefer to look at plants rather than algae.

It all depends on whether you want to allow the tank to develop on its own without interference (which usually results in algae taking over, like in most enclosed lakes and ponds), or have to constantly work at controlling the environment parameters in order to get the exact look you want, then it starts to become less of a natural water environment and more like an artificially controlled tank environment, then might as well just go all the way and install a proper filter with proper lights and do water changes.  :Smile: 

What i'm basically trying to say is if you allow a tank environment to be subjected to natural conditions (ie. sunlight, no water changes etc), then it will develop according to those variables and there will naturally be much less control over the outcomes.

----------


## myhui

But do the fish want to swim in such thick algae? I doubt it. So I have to clear out the algae to give the fish some space to swim in.

I'll install two power heads next week that should vastly improve water circulation. I'll also plant lots of water wisteria. I hope that will bring some biodiversity to the tank. Otherwise I get a monoculture green hair algae tank and I'm not sure that's healthy for the fish.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> But do the fish want to swim in such thick algae? I doubt it. So I have to clear out the algae to give the fish some space to swim in.
> 
> I'll install two power heads next week that should vastly improve water circulation. I'll also plant lots of water wisteria. I hope that will bring some biodiversity to the tank. Otherwise I get a monoculture green hair algae tank and I'm not sure that's healthy for the fish.


It depends on the type of fishes... if you put guppies or mollys in the tank, they will gladly much up the hair algae. Most livebearers usually consume algae as part of their diet. Fish fry also love to forage amongst the algae as it contains lots of micro-fauna for them to eat. 

Dedicated algae eaters like otocinclus, SAE, plecos etc will love this kind of algae filled environments. Lots of natural food for them to graze on. 

If you keep shrimps, they will love to graze on it too. Shrimp keepers allow algae to grow in their tanks just for that purpose. I had a shrimp grow-out tank that was covered in thick layers of different algae, can't even see clearly into it (looked like a green box), but its paradise for them and they breed like crazy.

Though if the algae situation is really bad and you really need to clear excessive hair algae to give the existing fishes more space to swim (and those fishes don't consume the algae or have a symbiotic relationship with it), then no choice you'll just have to manually remove the algae, and take all the extra steps that you can to minimize it within the current tank environment.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

Just a suggestion... maybe you could look at introducing 4-5 amano/yamato shrimps into the tank (if they are readily available at your regular LFS) to help manage the algae situation.

It'll be interesting for you to observe the effect they have on the algae in your tank... don't feed them during the initial period as there is already alot of natural food for them in your tank.

----------


## myhui

I do appreciate all the suggestion for suitable fishes and shrimps.

I'll add the shrimps for sure.

I ordered the filter socks to go over the power heads. Once those are in place, I'll add the plants and the shrimps.

As for fishes, I want something as small as possible, to go with the small scale of the aquarium. In that sense, what are the best algae eating fishes? I like discus type of fishes, but I think the tank has too many randomly arranged hornworts now for them to gracefully slice in between the blades of grass that they do in their natural habitat. From a swimming efficiency point of view, neon tetras are ideal for the tank as it is now.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

You can look at endlers, specifically the male endlers, they have various bright metallic colors and patterns, are smaller than normal guppies (usually around 2cm) and will munch on hair/thread algae. Just 4-5 of them would make for a nice group in your tank.

Just make sure not to add in female endlers (which are larger and a plain silver color) as they will breed very easily and soon your tank will be overstocked with fry.

To complement the yamato shrimps, you can look at getting nerite snails, they are excellent algae eaters and will help eat up soft and hard green algae on plant leaves and tank glass. Look for horned nerite snails as they are smaller in size compared to other nerite snail species. 2-3 snails will be good enough for your tank. 

Both yamato shrimps and nerite snails don't breed in freshwater tanks (their young need brackish water to hatch and grow), so they wouldn't overpopulate your tank.

All the livestock i mentioned... endlers, yamato shrimps and nerite snails, come from higher pH hard water environments, so they will fare much better in your tank conditions compared to the tetra (since it seems like the aquasoil in your tank has already exhausted its pH lowering ability and you put in oyster shells to increase the pH).

In addition, for those livestock that i suggested, you don't need to feed them much because they will already eat the algae that are already growing in your tank, so in essence they will help clear algae and convert the existing algae into waste which will then go back into the water column to feed the plants. It'll be sort of like re-directing or re-balancing the nutrient content in the tank.

The key to maintaining balance in your tank (especially since it doesn't have a filter) is to keep the bio-load light, yet also try to have livestock that have a dual-purpose and can at least help do some tank management jobs... rather than just swim around and do nothing other than eat and poop alot, leaving you to handle the tedious algae removal work alone.  :Grin:

----------


## myhui

On the topic of pH: I put in oyster shells mostly to increase KH, so that the water has good buffering ability. Do I have that right? Or are the shells better for another reason? I didn't put the shells in as a fix for a pH problem. I never had a pH problem, probably because I started using tap water mixed with Seachem Prime a long time ago instead of using R.O. water. I do have a R.O. water supply at home, but I use it now for other purposes like drinking or brushing teeth.

I appreciate your livestock suggestions. I don't even know what kind of snails I have in there now. But they are breeding for sure. Lately, it seems like none of the newborn snails manage to make it past 2mm in diameter.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> On the topic of pH: I put in oyster shells mostly to increase KH, so that the water has good buffering ability. Do I have that right? Or are the shells better for another reason? I didn't put the shells in as a fix for a pH problem. I never had a pH problem, probably because I started using tap water mixed with Seachem Prime a long time ago instead of using R.O. water. I do have a R.O. water supply at home, but I use it now for other purposes like drinking or brushing teeth.


Well, for tanks using ADA Amazonia aquasoil, the active soil itself is meant to buffer and control the pH and KH for you to create an optimal environment for plant growth (usually to a steady 6.4-6.6 pH and 0 KH, it doesn't rely on KH to buffer anymore, this is part of its main characteristics), so its not recommended to interfere with it... if you add in things to increase the KH, they will "fight" against the active soil's buffering ability (ie. ADA soil wants to maintain pH and KH lower while your additives want to push pH and KH higher), the soil will exhaust its buffering ability quickly and can no longer control/maintain the lower pH/KH environment favorable for plant growth.

The oyster shells also dissolve and release minerals into the water column, so that increases the TDS/GH and makes the water harder, hence more alkaline... especially in a tank without water changes and only top ups with treated tap water. Hence you eventually end up with higher pH and KH conditions, which are different from what the active soil was originally intended to do.

----------


## limz_777

> I take the biologist's view that good quality water and healthy fish are the only things that matter.


i think the plants need to grow healthy first in order for it to work ?

----------


## myhui

> i think the plants need to grow healthy first in order for it to work ?


Oh certainly that's the order that I used to set up the tank. The plants were grown to 80% of what you see here before I introduced snails and fish.

----------


## myhui

I want to put a filter sock over my power head recirculation pump. I only have a sheet of filter material, not a properly fitted sock.

Is it biologically safe to use an elastic band to fasten the sock to the pump?

----------


## mUAr_cHEe

> Is it biologically safe to use an elastic band to fasten the sock to the pump?


I am assuming you are referring to rubber bands. If you are, technically, it is safe to use it. But do monitor if it breaks down every now and then.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> I want to put a filter sock over my power head recirculation pump. I only have a sheet of filter material, not a properly fitted sock.
> 
> Is it biologically safe to use an elastic band to fasten the sock to the pump?


There shouldn't be an issue biologically, but the elastic band will lose its strength over time and eventually break apart in the water, so you'll just have to check periodically and change it out whenever required.

----------


## myhui

Yes I do mean rubber band.

Is there an alternative?

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> Yes I do mean rubber band.
> 
> Is there an alternative?


Can try using plastic zip ties or use nylon fishing lines to tie it... those will last alot longer than rubber bands.

Best would be to find those sponge guards that can fit to your pump intake, would be more reliable.

----------


## myhui

I removed a lot of hornworts from the tank, and replanted the newly purchased water wisteria along the sunward side of the tank to give them maximum chance to become the dominant plant. To do that, I had to remove most of the floating plants first. I'll put them back into the tank now.

I should have added water wisteria instead of hornworts from day one. Hornwort does not have an aggressive root system, and in fact can grow to great lengths without any roots.

I dumped the removed hornworts onto my backyard soil. When viewed from above, look at how much I removed! There was an earlier hornwort removal already, so this is the second batch to come out of the tank.

I'll add the two powerheads for improved recirculation after the water wisteria establish their roots. I'm afraid everything will be blown out of the soil if I add the powerheads now.

I made a "rooky's mistake" when I started this tank: I mixed the ADA Power Sand SPECIAL-M with the soil while both are dry, and then put them into the aquarium before adding water. I didn't realize you're supposed to keep them separate. So now I have soil that is not as compact as it should be. This should also mean the soil is more aerated than normal, and I thought that is good, as that's the other purpose of the sand. But "Aqua Soil- NEW Amazonia (9 liters)- Normal Type" is already aerated enough by itself (since it's a "professional mix").

----------


## Urban Aquaria

Interesting... your setup actually uses quite alot of high quality pro stuff, like ADA Amazonia aquasoil + Power Sand Special M and glass lily pipes and even a real ADA brand tank. Its definitely not a low budget setup. 

With all those nice equipment, i'm just curious why you decided to do a walstad "el natural" setup, rather than a proper planted tank setup.

Btw, i see 2 glass lily pipes in the photo, do you link them to pumps just to circulate the water? If so, why not just link them to canister filters to actually filter the water? It would make a huge difference in the tank environment.  :Very Happy:

----------


## myhui

> With all those nice equipment, i'm just curious why you decided to do a walstad "el natural" setup, rather than a proper planted tank setup.
> 
> Btw, i see 2 glass lily pipes in the photo, do you link them to pumps just to circulate the water? If so, why not just link them to canister filters to actually filter the water? It would make a huge difference in the tank environment.


The three remaining neon tetras love the new open space in the tank. They spent the whole evening zipping around the unobstructed top 1/3 of the tank. They must remember their old days in a non-planted tank at Pet Smart.

The connection is: outflow --> pump --> UV sterilizer --> inflow

It's not all high dollar equipment. The lily pipes are glass, but made in Hong Kong. They are slightly thicker glass than the beautiful made-in-Japan variety that ADA sells. The Hong Kong version sells for just a few dollars on eBay.

I haven't graduated to doing CO2 injection and external filtration yet. I've read that the biological processes happening in the filter can do bad things to the tank if any number of parameters go bad.

I'm having a tough time keeping algae and other things (like soil) clogging up the recirculation system. I don't even know if the UV sterilizer's glass walls are coated with something by now so it's no longer effective. I suppose the only way is to take apart the system and find out. But the tank does filter itself quite quickly.

I've read that people use "bio balls" in a sump-type recirculation system to maximize aeration. I'm open to making my recirculation system more sophisticated, but it has to be done in a scientific and incremental way.

Let's say I can do a high tech, and mid dollar, Walstad-style setup. Maybe that's my true aim. All it means is no CO2 injection and no external biological filtration, but a lot of possibilities are still possible given those two constraints.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

I see... if you haven't run a filtered system before, then i'd highly recommend you to install an external canister filter.

You already have the lily pipes and hoses connected to a pump, so all you need to do is just connect them to a canister filter instead. A canister filter will contain various grades of sponges to trap waste, dirt and soil debris (so your tank water will be clearer) and the bio-media will vastly increase the surface area for beneficial bacteria to live in, help process ammonia and nitrite more efficiently and maintaining a more reliable tank cycle.

I've run both filtered and filter-less tank setups before, and in every attempt, the filter-less setup was definitely way more difficult to keep in balance compared to a filtered setup.

All the algae issues you experience can be better managed and minimized by installing a good quality filter and aquarium lights. With more control over the tank environment, you'll also have more control over algae growth. At the moment, you're really fighting a tough uphill battle without these basic equipment. 

With filter and lights keeping the tank conditions stable, you shouldn't even need to use a UV sterilizer in the first place.

If you are thinking about a sump-type recirculation system, that would basically work like a sump filter and you'll need an overflow box or drill overflow holes in your tank for it to operate properly. That will already be moving past canister filters and advancing to sump filtration systems.

Co2 injection is an optional factor as its mainly used to artificially accelerate the growth of plants, its not necessarily an essential part of a healthy tank's eco-system... some livestock don't do well in Co2 injected environments too.

Sorry if i keep harping on the same things, but i just feel that its abit of a waste for your ADA tank with its high-clarity crystal glass to be all covered in algae and cloudy water, it would be nice to restore the tank back to its original clarity.  :Very Happy: 

I do understand that you are interested to experiment with the walstad method (which sets certain restrictions and limitations which what equipment you can or cannot use), so you should still follow that method if its your original plan.

----------


## myhui

Well, I could have just run the tooth brush over the glass before taking the picture and it will look clear.

But there was a lot of tiny baby snails climbing up the glass.

So, being the animal lover that I am, I left the glass alone.

I do have an overflow box.

But Walstad's book mentions specifically not to use any type of biological filtration lest that interferes or competes with what the plants are doing.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> But Walstad's book mentions specifically not to use any type of biological filtration lest that interferes or competes with what the plants are doing.


Yeah, thats why i mentioned that if you want to strictly follow the walstad method... then just stick to the current setup, no need to change it.

----------


## myhui

I added a lot more water wisteria plants, and removed the drift wood that was taking up a lot of space in the middle of the tank. I hope the water wisteria will grow a lot of roots soon.

The first generation of snails are all dead now. The second generation is in full bloom, but none of them have grown beyond 7mm in diameter, and that worries me. The three remaining neon tetras are very happy, as they have a lot more space to swim in now.

The walls of the tank are dirty, so the pictures look bad. The pictures are hosted on photobucket, so you can click on them to get the full resolution version.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

Looks like you have ample algae growth on the tank glass to support a few otocinclus fishes... maybe see if you can get 2-3 otocinclus from your favourite LFS, pick the healthiest and most active ones, do drip acclimation on them and then introduce into the tank.

They will have nice pot bellies feasting on all that algae film, and at the same time help clean up the tank glass too.  :Smile: 

The good thing with your current setup is the algae will keep growing in abundance, so there will constantly be natural food generated for the otos.

----------


## myhui

I put in five 2cm long amano shrimps.

Over the past two days, they have been eating either the green hair algae or the left over fish food on the substrate.

I suppose you can't train the shrimp to just eat the algae.

But those little guys are sure keeping themselves very busy.

One of them likes to hang up side down on the roots of the floating plants to eat the algae stuck to the roots.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> I put in five 2cm long amano shrimps.
> 
> Over the past two days, they have been eating either the green hair algae or the left over fish food on the substrate.
> 
> I suppose you can't train the shrimp to just eat the algae.
> 
> But those little guys are sure keeping themselves very busy.
> 
> One of them likes to hang up side down on the roots of the floating plants to eat the algae stuck to the roots.


You can simply feed less or stop feeding for a few days, that will "encourage" the shrimps to focus on just eating algae in the tank. Anytime there is fish food available, shrimps will always prefer to eat it over algae.  :Very Happy: 

Btw, if your amano shrimps are only 2cm size, those are juveniles ones. They can grow up to 5-6cm in size over time and thats when they become super effective algae eaters (larger shrimps = larger appetites).

----------


## myhui

I still have two very healthy neon tetras left. So I need to give them some food.

If the shrimp grow to be bigger than the fish, then that's a photo worthy moment.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> I still have two very healthy neon tetras left. So I need to give them some food.


In that case, just feed very tiny amounts and only enough that the fishes can eat all of it from the surface. Try to minimize excess food dropping onto the substrate.

Actually, with just 2 neon tetras in an established 2ft tank with soil substrate and lots of algae, you don't even need to feed them daily, just every few days will do. There should already be more than enough micro-fauna/critters (ie. detritus worms, nematodes, copepods etc) living amongst the plants and algae to naturally sustain and feed those 2 small fishes.

I sometimes skip feeding my fishes for up to 5 days in a row (usually when i'm away on an overseas trip), and they all still thrive and manage to hunt for enough live food in their tanks.




> If the shrimp grow to be bigger than the fish, then that's a photo worthy moment.


If they are amano shrimps, and if the tank conditions are good for them, they will eventually grow large. The oldest amano shrimp i kept grew to around 7cm size (it was transferred around different tanks for almost 2+ years, pretty hardy specimen).

----------


## myhui

> Actually, with just 2 neon tetras in an established 2ft tank with soil substrate and lots of algae, you don't even need to feed them daily, just every few days will do. There should already be more than enough micro-fauna/critters (ie. detritus worms, nematodes, copepods etc) living amongst the plants and algae to naturally sustain and feed those 2 small fishes.


But those neon tetras are so happy when they see the food, that it makes me want to feed them at least twice a day. Otherwise they are not very active unless they see food.

One of the shrimps scared me today. It was lying on its side, completely still. I thought it was long dead. But after a while it popped back up and looked just fine. It seems like these shrimps have no strong preference on which way is up.

----------


## myhui

Short video here of the upside down shrimps chomping on the algae attached to the floating plants' roots. (It's still processing ... once it's done, you'll be able to see the video)

----------


## myhui

Those shrimps are weird: their poop sticks to their butt as if it's an extension of their gut that runs the length of the body. Or is it a piece of overgrown intestine? I see this black tube extending beyond the tail of the shrimp.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

> Those shrimps are weird: their poop sticks to their butt as if it's an extension of their gut that runs the length of the body. Or is it a piece of overgrown intestine? I see this black tube extending beyond the tail of the shrimp.


Thats just poop that hasn't detached yet.  :Grin:

----------


## myhui

All five of those shrimps disappeared overnight just because I left the heater off on a very hot night. The water temperature couldn't have dropped below 20C. There was one freshly mottled shrimp shell. But that's it!

Where did the shrimps go???

The two remaining neon tetras are fine. One of them has a huge tummy.

I used the API Freshwater Master Test Kit to check ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, and all are at the lowest level on thw color chart.

The pH is 7.4.

I've routinely added R.O. water to the tank to top it up after losing water to evaporation.

But this is strange.

Are the shrimps hiding?

Or they all died in one invisible place in the tank?

----------


## tetrakid

> All five of those shrimps disappeared overnight just because I left the heater off on a very hot night. The water temperature couldn't have dropped below 20C. There was one freshly mottled shrimp shell. But that's it!
> 
> Where did the shrimps go???
> 
> The two remaining neon tetras are fine. One of them has a huge tummy.
> 
> I used the API Freshwater Master Test Kit to check ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, and all are at the lowest level on thw color chart.
> 
> The pH is 7.4.
> ...


Or they could be still alive and kicking in that Bermuda Triangle in your tank?
This definitely calls for an expert. :Smile:

----------


## Urban Aquaria

Check around the tank, they could have crawled out... amano/yamato shrimps are very good at escaping out of tanks and they are strong enough to walk on dry land for quite a distance.

Otherwise, they could just be hiding somewhere inside the tank. Changes in parameters like temperature can prompt them to molt, and after that they will hide for a while until their shells harden.

Btw, how warm is the weather at your location these days?

----------


## myhui

> Check around the tank, they could have crawled out...


I removed some algae via the yarn spinning method, and found all the shrimps. Four were neatly lined up in two rows. Maybe they've found their mates and were doing their procreation thing.

Those shrimps can craw out and walk on land? That's amazing.

I notice they can swim as fast as the neon tetras, with their horizontal tail propelling them as fast as a dolphin's tail would.

----------


## myhui

Current status: five amano shrimps doing very well. One remaining neon tetra doing very well. Lots of snails ... at least 200. The snails are starting to become larger before they die off. The shrimps love to pick bits of food off of the roots of the floating plants. In the side view photo, you can see one shrimp at the lower center of photo, and the roots of floating plants at top of photo. The water wisteria are growing fast, as are some sort of sword that I don't know the name of. Both those plants have big leaves that can withstand at least an hour of direct sunlight, so they grow rapidly. I add R.O. water only now, and add it frequently, since the direct sunlight every day evaporates it quickly. The water chemistry is very good: lowest possible reading on all harmful chemicals and pH of 7.5.

----------


## myhui

I switched to full internal recirculating pumps, two of them, with water intake at bottom of tank just above soil level through a stainless steel mesh, and the pumps shoot water up towards the surface for aeration. Nothing can leak now, except some water splashes gets thrown over the tank walls. I need to clean the stainless steel mesh at least twice a week, but that's fine.

This is working beautifully. After six months of this new configuration, plants are growing fast, fishes are multiplying fast, and everything seems perfectly healthy. I started with just two of those rapidly multiplying orange fishes. Not a lot of genetic diversity here, but they seem to do well. That pair is at least onto their 10th litter now. A lot of snails craw onto the mesh, since that's where the uneaten fish food is, and they can smell it.

The amount of plants you see there have gone through once a month trimming, so it definitely gets much more planted than that.

There is still direct sunlight in the afternoon since it's on a mostly unobstructed west facing window on the second floor. The only obstructions to the sun are tall trees a few hundred feet away from my house.

Here are two videos:

https://goo.gl/photos/Za9nQ5tHes3WqeSe8

The side view video is the best.

----------

