# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk >  Unhealthy Hairgrass

## alechim

Tank Dimensions (LxWxH, specify units):Stardard 2ft tank

Lighting Intensity(No of Watts) :48watts
Number and type of Lighting (FL/PL/MH) : 2 x 24watts T5
Age of light bulbs : 6 mths
No. of hours your lights are on : 12hrs

CO2 Injection Rate (bps) : 2bps
Type of CO2 (DIY/Cylinder) : Cylinder
Method of Injection (e.g. Diffusor/Reactor) :Reactor

Liquid fertilisers Used (Product name. E.g. Seachem Flourish) : ADA Step2, ADA brighty K, ADA brighty special Lights
Fertilization regime (Frequency and amount per dose) : Everyday except for Sat and Sun (Because tank is in office)

Other fertilisers (Product name. E.g. Root Monster) : nil

Other additives (Product name. E.g. Seachem Prime) : nil

Type of Filter (overhead/internal/canister, Product name/model if possible) : Eheim 2026
When was the filter last washed : Last Friday
Filter media used : ADA substrate pro, ADA bamboo charcoal, eheim filter wool
When was the media last changed : 6 mths
What was changed : all

Age of setup (i.e. since initial setup or last major re-do ) : 6 mths

Water change frequency : once a week
Amount changed : 50%

Water surface movement (None/gentle/turbulent) : gentle
Circulation (None/gentle/turbulent) : gentle

Tank Temperature : 26 degrees

Chemical Properties (Fill what you can)
-------------------------------------
KH (dKH): 3
GH (dGH): - 
pH : 6.8
NH4 (ppm): 0
NO2 (ppm): 0
NO3 (ppm): 0
PO4 (ppm): -
Fe (ppm): -

Bioload (Number and type of fish and plants)
------------------------------------------
13 x rasboras, 2 x SAEs, 8 x yamatos, 4 x OTOs, 2 x German RAMs, hairgrass lawn, 2 wiremess of moss

Describe your problem :
----------------------
My hairgrass is not really growing very well. They are growing, however young leaves are bright green in colour and old leaves are dark green, browning and there are spots and patches of browns on them. though having they since like 6 mths ago, they are like only 1-1.5 inches tall and does not "spread like wild fire" as many described. BTW Im growing them in ADA amozonia and im using a rainbar. I have tried various fert regimes but its still the same. I was formerly using Dr Mallicks lushgro Aqua and dosing PO4 before switching to ADA

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## Shadow

NO3 (ppm): 0? you probably did not dose enough NO3 or maybe the charcoal bind the NO3

your target is suppose to be like:
NO3	5 - 30 ppm
PO4	1 - 2 ppm

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## torque6

I am having the same problem as well. Been having Jap HG in my nano tank for 6months now, added these on apr =co2, daily 8hrs->12w lights, dosing 20ppm NO3, 0.5ppm po4, >20ppm K as well as trace elements, calcium+mag during wc, however, it isnt creeping like wild fire as some bros here using simple setup like lowtech.

The only difference i managed to stream down is the soil, i m using . GEX red packets [shrimps+plants soil] with larger grains. Verminator did mentioned reading that smaller grain allows the HG to creep faster given the same parameters for both tanks.

For now, i have been trimming the brown leaves since last week after my bga blackout. This as suggested by many bros here encourages runners as well.

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## alechim

> NO3 (ppm): 0? you probably did not dose enough NO3 or maybe the charcoal bind the NO3
> 
> your target is suppose to be like:
> NO3 5 - 30 ppm
> PO4 1 - 2 ppm


It was worst when I was dosing lushgro back then, I am definitely maintainly 5-30ppm for NO3 and 1-2ppm for PO4.

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## alechim

> I am having the same problem as well. Been having Jap HG in my nano tank for 6months now, added these on apr =co2, daily 8hrs->12w lights, dosing 20ppm NO3, 0.5ppm po4, >20ppm K as well as trace elements, calcium+mag during wc, however, it isnt creeping like wild fire as some bros here using simple setup like lowtech.
> 
> The only difference i managed to stream down is the soil, i m using . GEX red packets [shrimps+plants soil] with larger grains. Verminator did mentioned reading that smaller grain allows the HG to creep faster given the same parameters for both tanks.
> 
> For now, i have been trimming the brown leaves since last week after my bga blackout. This as suggested by many bros here encourages runners as well.


I did trim the tips as well, but they never grow taller after that..

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## torque6

How about soil ? large or smaller grains ?

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## Shadow

> It was worst when I was dosing lushgro back then, I am definitely maintainly 5-30ppm for NO3 and 1-2ppm for PO4.


your measurement seems to be pointing otherwise

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## alechim

> your measurement seems to be pointing otherwise


It was then mths ago i used lushgro. I dosed according to the DMDD calculator and attained the required 5-30ppm NO3 and 1-2ppm PO4,man the condition of the HG was worst then.
It is only after switching to ADA did it turn better, more fresher green but most of it still dark green with browning and most has spots/patches of browns

The above measurements are with ADA ferts

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## Shadow

I'm still think even with ADA, NO3 should not be 0. Unless something wrong with you tester or you dose too little.

What substrate are you using?

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## alechim

> I'm still think even with ADA, NO3 should not be 0. Unless something wrong with you tester or you dose too little.
> 
> What substrate are you using?


ADA amazonia

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## torque6

Im not familiar with ada amazonia as i have only glimpse the large 3kg bags at Thio and wasnt comparing them to gex powder soil.

Likewise, even with low ferts, hairgrass have done pretty well in low tech setup as observed by various bros here. So these issue of hg having problems is isolated between myself and chim?  :Sad:

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## alechim

> Im not familiar with ada amazonia as i have only glimpse the large 3kg bags at Thio and wasnt comparing them to gex powder soil.
> 
> Likewise, even with low ferts, hairgrass have done pretty well in low tech setup as observed by various bros here. So these issue of hg having problems is isolated between myself and chim?


You and me must be scratching head after such a long long time.
I ever thought of rescaping the whole thing. Likewise, wondering whether is it the grain size of the substrate did the difference. My friend used the same and his plants are doing well until he decommissioned his tank.

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## alechim

Any bros out there had experienced the same problem and managed to overcome it?

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## Shadow

defenetly not because of the substrate, I'm using Amazonia as well.

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## KeIgO86

I never had problems with normal hairgrass even in lapis gravel. Recently, I've planted my jap hairgrass in lapis. 2x1x1 tank, 55w PL 12hrs. My tank conditons since i had normal hairgrass were as follows: No considerable form of root ferts because my base fert has been sitting under the lapis for more than 4 years already. Just liquid ferts and lots of CO2 (3-4bps) via reactor. CO2 is not so constant for me, because my solenoid is a little faulty. (It doesn't let the air out every morning when it turns on, i have to turn the knob in both directions a little everyday. Sometimes i forget to do that and the tank runs without CO2 for more than 3/4 of the day.)

So far it has been 3 weeks+ (i let it sit potted in the tank for about 1 week before planting), the new plantlets are plenty, bright green and bending as they should. The old leaves are still there and they are dull and browning. Will update soon, hopefully with good news.

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## torque6

sigh, so problems lies with both of us.. So sad lol.

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## alechim

yeah man! But whats the problem? If its some problem that can be rectified, I dont mind LOL

A noobie question for all bros - the "rightful" ppm for NO3(5-30),CO2(25-35ppm),PO4(1-3ppm) etc etc is based on a daily requirement or weekly? Meaning NO3 (5-30ppm) is a daily requirement?

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## alechim

Update - my NO3 is 5ppm as measured this morning

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## torque6

Im using EI from peter's advise, so i dose around 20ppm/3 on mon/wed/sat like this. Same with the other liquid ferts.

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## Shadow

NO3(5-30),CO2(25-35ppm),PO4(1-3ppm)... based on daily requirement

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## alechim

Roger. Will continue to monitor and see how. Thanks!

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## KeIgO86

I notice you have ADA charcoal in your filter. Perhaps it is absorbing your nitrates?

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## alechim

not so sure though. Will monitor

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## torque6

Jervis has a close up on his A&A tank, his using larger grains and have a good close shot of the runners. Can check it out.

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## bubberls

is your lighting regime still 12 hrs?

cut back on lighting... i know it might sound like "What ?? less light??? "

Create a siesta period... plants do need to rest like us...

Had some browning on my HC lawn... not sure if you see it as the same problem but i cut back my lighting by an hour and increased the siesta period.

After a week there is a visible difference.

read in some sites " There is never too much light " .... i don't agree in that...
most prob HG are getting a sunburn........

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## torque6

I usually leave my light regime no more than 8hrs daily, though im not sure how bad alechim HGs are, but mine = slow growth and i have been trying for a HG lawn since nov last year  :Sad:

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## KeIgO86

Just to share, my lighting is 12 hours straight, and my jap HG is growing fine. 55w over 2x1x1. HG are pearling, though its not thick enough to be considerred a lawn yet.

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## uklau

> sigh, so problems lies with both of us.. So sad lol.


You guys are not alone. This is my 2nd attempt with Japanese HG on Seachem Onyx. 1st attempt was in a medium light tank & this round is in a high light tank. Still not growing well. 
So, it could be substrate issue for my case.

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## alechim

update since last Fri, signs are my HG are doing better after the change of fert regime. The brownings disappeared and old leaves are turning fresher green.

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## alechim

Alas the HG not doing well. My pair of German Ram just spawned over the weekend  :Laughing:

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## blue33

If i'm not wrong ADA brighty K is potassium also, every alternate day you got to add potassium(plant need it to create photosynthesis), depending on the need of your plants, plant calculator can only give you guidance but each plant consume nutrients differently. For me i will based on the plants to tell me what they lack off before i add more. You need additional 24W light, but cut short the hr to 8-9hrs of photoperiod. HG needs strong light although low light still can grow, also you can trim slightly more, than trimming the tips only to get them grow wild.  :Grin:  If you have alot of fauna, or if you have feed more fish food, then you dont really need to supply nitrate and phosphate, as those will provide enough. What you need to supply is potassium and micro nutrients. Alot of us have feed too much nutrients or ferts to the plant causing algae bloom and death to fauna/plant or so, including me. Hope it helps!  :Jump for joy:

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## Verminator

Havnt been following this thread 100&#37; but i've read enough to comfortably suggest something.

Regardless of dosing of ferts i'd suggest a routine for lights. I do 5 hours on, 2 hours off and another 5 hours on. My lights are on 10am 3pm, from 5pm till 4pm siesta, 5pm till 10pm i have my lights on again. I've certainly noticed a big difference in how my plants are growing. Certainly using T5 high lights i noticed with 10 hours straight there was browning on my leaves, after a week of this new regime its clearing up. Hope this helps.

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## alechim

Thanks for the many suggestions.

Blue33 - Brighty K is potassium but I had since stopped dosing ADA ferts and went back to Lushgro. So far so good I will say. But still not as well.

Verminator - I will try out your suggestion as well. Thanks

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## torque6

Lushgro is actually a good choice, however determining the dose is more discerning than that of seachem line of ferts. I have tried deriving a target of 20ppm of KNO3 with lushgro, but seems to overdose on other trace elements.

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## Shadow

yeah that is always the problem with all in one ferteliser. So sad that KNO3 become control item.

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## alechim

> Lushgro is actually a good choice, however determining the dose is more discerning than that of seachem line of ferts. I have tried deriving a target of 20ppm of KNO3 with lushgro, but seems to overdose on other trace elements.


Yup I notice that too. So I strike a balance and do a 50% wc to reduce the ferts in the water column once a week to "reset" the tank. So far notice the new leaves are growing fine except for the old leaves which are still brown or dark green. 

Well fingers crossed. Else if nothing does turns out well, I am sure after all these trials and errors I will be able to do a better job next time  :Laughing:

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## blue33

> yeah that is always the problem with all in one ferteliser. So sand that KNO3 become control item.


Hi! If you have high fish load like me, you dont really need to dose KNO3, fish poo is more than enough.  :Laughing:  And i get mass plant growth, though slight dose of KNO3 makes plant grow WILD...  :Grin:

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## alechim

I am getting 20ppm after I dose the fert. So it should be okie unless I try to maintain 30ppm..

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## k3nlim

The HG seems to grow quite abit (although not spreading like wildfire yet) for my newly started tank (no fishes). No fert regime and lights are 2X24W T5HO and magicsoil.

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## StanChung

I think add more light. 48W for a 2ft tank is just adequate. I have 230W on my 3ft 4x30W, 2X55W-8hours and they are growing well-pearling!  :Grin: 

My fert routine. Twice weekly K and Step 2 as per manufacturer's recommendation and ECA squirts in between together with Green Gain. Soil is Amazonia.

As I understand it, the old leaves/needles are browning. This is natural, just trim it. Hope this helps.

Cropped from one of my full tank pics.


Just to add that this was achieved in 2 months.

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## Verminator

Did yours take a few weeks to settle in before growth started. I've just planted HG in my tank just over a week ago and so far there is no growth. Some old leaves are browning and dieing off but no new noticable runners. Mine is Eleocharis Parvula. So far its still in its original clumping how i planted them.

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## StanChung

it started sprouting runners within a week. You do have to start with healthy plants in the 1st place. In my case I used my emersed stocks.

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## Verminator

Mine were in transport for 13 days, and looked a bit droopy and lifeless after 13 days in the dark in a box. There green again in my tank now, just not showing fresh growth as of yet. I'm hoping in next week, or coming weeks atleast that it starts to spread. I'm desperate for a lawn affect of it in my tank. All other plants are growing, albeit slowly there still growing.

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## alechim

> I think add more light. 48W for a 2ft tank is just adequate. I have 230W on my 3ft 4x30W, 2X55W-8hours and they are growing well-pearling! 
> 
> My fert routine. Twice weekly K and Step 2 as per manufacturer's recommendation and ECA squirts in between together with Green Gain. Soil is Amazonia.
> 
> As I understand it, the old leaves/needles are browning. This is natural, just trim it. Hope this helps.
> 
> Cropped from one of my full tank pics.
> 
> 
> Just to add that this was achieved in 2 months.


mine were never like that after 2 months..
i does K twice a day and step 2 everyday with green bacter back then when I used ADA ferts..newer leaves are this green but older leaves are dark green and with spots of brown. And the perportion of new leaves to old are probably 1-10..very bad shape..

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## alechim

Update!

Just got back to office today and found my HG definitely getting greener and the darker greens ones are reducing. Rate of growth is tack faster too. But still some of the HG are uprooted, keeps me wondering if its the SAE, Yamato shrimps or my RAM are the culprits.

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## Verminator

It'll be the SAE in the night. They're pesky blighters like that. Swimming around scavenging not really caring much for the plants. Atleast mine do anyway, so i'd assume its the same in yours.

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## alechim

Right, I had isolated it and see any destruction tomorrow

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## StanChung

Use small SAE, they are good at keeping the HG clean from hairy algae. Try ADA's Green Gain. Magic stuff IMHO. But IME will make red plants temporarily green as well!

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## alechim

mine grew from a tiny one to a gigantic one  :Laughing:

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## StanChung

I have a retirement home in the porch. They're the size of my denisonii's. LOL.

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## blue33

> mine were never like that after 2 months..
> i does K twice a day and step 2 everyday with green bacter back then when I used ADA ferts..newer leaves are this green but older leaves are dark green and with spots of brown. And the perportion of new leaves to old are probably 1-10..very bad shape..


You does K twice a day? Isnt it too much, too much of K will kill your shrimps! I had experienced that when i try to dose more of K to see the effect.  :Sad:

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## zenscape

Hairgrass grows like weeds and not many have experienced HG stunt. 

The key is to keep NPK sufficient, co2 and light on the high side plus constant trimming.

I read from the thread starter that his co2 was at 2 bps. I don't know how would it translate to PPM but to me it was certainly low. Add higher light if there is an option.

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## alechim

oops, I meant I dosed brighty K twice a week

zenscape - my HG does not grow like weeds, I had tried high CO2 + high light (74watt T5 on a 2ft tank) but really no help.

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## blue33

You can try trimming 1/3 from the tips. I also dose some Magnesium Sulphate, it helps in the grow!  :Smile:

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## alechim

> You can try trimming 1/3 from the tips. I also dose some Magnesium Sulphate, it helps in the grow!


trimmed before, but my HG are like only an inch to an inch half long. And the growth is not really that "grow like wild fire"

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## StanChung

A picture perhaps? A pic of the other plants can help us ID the cause.

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## torque6

I have completed my BGA treatments for about a week, trimmed several HG and dead leaves from the blackout with myacin. Dosing the original ferts regime given to me by Peter and I'm seeing new shoots coming up strongly from the soil. Though not as in the same thickness as Stan's.

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## StanChung

It's good to hear it's coming out strongly. It should be exponential if you continue to increase dosage of ferts etc as it grows. The manufacturer's recommendation 
IMHO is low for a tank that's mature.

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## alechim

> A picture perhaps? A pic of the other plants can help us ID the cause.


cant leh, because I cant bring camera nor camera phone into office

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## Verminator

Stash one away somewhere  :Grin: 

Or is there too many people about that would not approve? Surely your able to take a pic of your tank, surely?

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## alechim

> Stash one away somewhere 
> 
> Or is there too many people about that would not approve? Surely your able to take a pic of your tank, surely?


really really cannot, my work place is a no camera zone

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## Verminator

That seems a bit daft, almost unfair. You work for the military or something. Or not to hit to much of a political note for the far east, but against government laws?

I know how some of the Asian governing bodies over in various places can have ridiculous laws, so much to the point where walking in the street at a certain time of night can get your balls cut off (exageration ofcourse). Tieneman square ect?

Anyway, back on topic: Well i'm glad your having more success with yours. Only thing left for me to do now is to try and get mine to improve. Glad one of us is having a slight success story with HG currently  :Smile:

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## StanChung

My brother in law works in bank trading floor and definitely no cameras or handphones but I doubt they even allow tanks. This is intriguing.

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## Verminator

I suppose every work place is different  :Smile:  Just intrigued to know what job he's in that does not allow cameras. No reason without justification, only then does it make sense...basically nosey haha  :Razz:

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## torque6

Alechim, might want to check here, this guys tank is 3 months low tech, no ferts, no wc and his HG is doing fair better than mine in high tech, with NPK dosing lol. ironic.

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...077#post346077

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## torque6

Added my HG grown in hightech with NPK daily dosing. 3 months set up 

VS

No tech, no fert, no wc, little or no effort.

This goes to show life is not fair and there should not be any comparison.....

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## StanChung

Could be a different species. There's a japanese hairgrass that's ~50&#37; slower and 1/2-1/3 the size of _Eleocharis parvul_a.

This is the Japanese hairgrass, only 2-3cm tall.


and this is Eleocharis parvula.

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## alechim

mine is the normal HG, not the Jap HG.

Yeah its so unfair!

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## blue33

> Added my HG grown in hightech with NPK daily dosing. 3 months set up 
> 
> VS
> 
> No tech, no fert, no wc, little or no effort.
> 
> This goes to show life is not fair and there should not be any comparison.....



If you notice the height of this setup the water for the light to reach is very shallow, it get almost 100% lighting from this, generally the HG would have enough lighting to grow even if you dont feed any nutrient cause the new soil nutrient would last for quite awhile of nutrient supply to the HG before it runs out and there's no other plant that fight for the nutrient to grow. If you just dose K alone, it would grow wild and more dense than before. As K is always not enough for the plant, over dose of K would kill your shrimp, i mean really overrrrr... dose.

For your 48W lighting, this is not enough to make them grow, you need another 24W would be just nice, if you add another 24W you got to cut down your photoperiod to 8hrs, it doesnt mean longer hr of photoperiod is good for the plant rather enough light for the plant is the most crucial source of energy for the plant to grow. I'm currently running 2x24W T5 and 36W PL for 1.5x1.5x1.5 ft tank and i dont get major algae, just spot algae, and the Jap HG is growing crazy, also because i've alot of fauna, about 30+, so the fish food and poo is almost enough to provide N and P, now i only dose more K and some N(if i notice not enough). Notice you got quite no of fauna also.

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## blue33

And why Metal Halide is always the best lighting for the plant is because it has better and longer distance penetration of light, unlike the rest of the light. If you notice most of the shallow tank with normal light, the plant can still grow pretty well even if there's no nutrient added.  :Laughing:

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## blue33

> mine is the normal HG, not the Jap HG.
> 
> Yeah its so unfair!


Is not unfair but getting the right formula to work!  :Grin:  I personally bought alot of different light to do the research on my tank, though it may be a waste for others but i gained to use the right formula through experimenting. Just go out and look at how bright the sun is and the plant is happy to have them shine at it.  :Grin:

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## torque6

So probably issue with light ? what i have is the japanese variant Eleocharis parvula. The light of the no tech tank is maybe around 9w height about 17cm, mine is 23cm with 12w, but the growth shouldnt be up to a stage of 90&#37; growth rate in a span of 3 months.

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## blue33

> So probably issue with light ? what i have is the japanese variant Eleocharis parvula. The light of the no tech tank is maybe around 9w height about 17cm, mine is 23cm with 12w, but the growth shouldnt be up to a stage of 90% growth rate in a span of 3 months.


Quality and Kelvin of the light do play an important role. T5, PL and fluorescent with same voltage give different result of plant grow. Especially the quality of the light, where it came from. I have 2ft fluorescent with arcadia light and also normal fluorescent with different lumens, 36W PL, 55W PL, 2x24W T5 with 10000K and 6500K Osram. All these give different result. Especially the Kelvin play an important role, but with those made in China given the same Kelvin will differ the result in plant grow. I have bought China brand and they come with different brand light tube inside.  :Knockout:

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## blue33

Also things to take note is if your water is not clean enough you'll get bad result of plant grow. You can see the low tech tank only has few small little shrimp, so the water quality is the best. With high fauna you got to really maintain the water quality well.

I would advice to change the water twice a week of 30%.

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## alechim

blue33 - I suppose I have to dose again since wc will reduce the nutrients in the water column. Now I only have green spotted algae which is not a big problem. HG is growing better though not like wild fire. I had also since change my photo period to 4 hrs with 2 hrs siesta and another 4 hrs. Seems to be working

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## torque6

Blue,
guess in our cases, kelvin could be playing a major role. Unfortunately for my case, i have no idea if the 12w is within the 5500-6500k or less. It doesnt even state daylight on the bulb.

I have another illumax 24w 10k, but changed to 18w 6500k for my HC project.

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## alechim

Update Updates : Came back office after a 3 day break and notice my HG getting worst for some reason. I had change nothing but some HG are getting the dark greening symptom again. 

I have 2 mesh of moss hanging in my tank but over the last few months they are "thining" and breaking off instead of growing densely. Anyone encounter such problem?

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## blue33

> Update Updates : Came back office after a 3 day break and notice my HG getting worst for some reason. I had change nothing but some HG are getting the dark greening symptom again. 
> 
> I have 2 mesh of moss hanging in my tank but over the last few months they are "thining" and breaking off instead of growing densely. Anyone encounter such problem?


You may be lacking of Phosphorus!

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## zenscape

> Blue,
> guess in our cases, kelvin could be playing a major role. Unfortunately for my case, i have no idea if the 12w is within the 5500-6500k or less. It doesnt even state daylight on the bulb.
> 
> I have another illumax 24w 10k, but changed to 18w 6500k for my HC project.



Directly look at the 12 w tube when it is on. Since you have a 6500k, put it side by side and compare how white is the tube you have doubt in colour temperature.

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## alechim

> You may be lacking of Phosphorus!


A query, I am dosing KH2PO4. Its phosphate, but does it has the Phosphorus needed?

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## jacian

You are okay with the Phosphate from KH2PO4.

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## blue33

> A query, I am dosing KH2PO4. Its phosphate, but does it has the Phosphorus needed?


Yes it does! Just remember not to overdose!  :Grin:

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## alechim

okie. Thanks! I will monitor and see how again..

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## torque6

> Directly look at the 12 w tube when it is on. Since you have a 6500k, put it side by side and compare how white is the tube you have doubt in colour temperature.


eh, i can't tell even after putting them side by side, but the 12w seems slightly whiter. So its better ? :Sad:

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## StanChung

Your plants will tell you. We definitely can't from where we are because some sections of photosynthetic radiation is not visible to our eyes.

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## zenscape

> eh, i can't tell even after putting them side by side, but the 12w seems slightly whiter. So its better ?


I think you are on the safe side so long it is not yellow or too bluish.

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## blue33

Yes! Plants can tell you on their grow especially those fast grow plant.  :Laughing:

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## alechim

update update: HG doing worst, since last week I had dose 20ml lushgro aqua and 3ml KH2PO4 each day. in addition, switched to 72watts of T5. BBA growth on the HG.

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## blue33

> update update: HG doing worst, since last week I had dose 20ml lushgro aqua and 3ml KH2PO4 each day. in addition, switched to 72watts of T5. BBA growth on the HG.


You're dosing "*20ml lushgro aqua and 3ml KH2PO4 each day*".  :Shocked:  You're overdosing fert for a 2ft tank! For my 1.5ft tank i only dose 5-7ml lusgro aqua twice a week, and 1ml of KH2PO4, due to my heavy bioload of fish. I do dose more K and some KNO3. Sometime i dont dose KH2PO4 if i feed more to the fish. And i got high lighting of 3X24(previously 84W) T5 light for a 1.5ft tank. Over dose of fert you will have issue, lesser is better than more as you can add more later.

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## StanChung

Just trim the BBA leaves and do follow the manufacturer's recommendation till your tank is on 'wildfire' mode.

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## alechim

> You're dosing "*20ml lushgro aqua and 3ml KH2PO4 each day*".  You're overdosing fert for a 2ft tank! For my 1.5ft tank i only dose 5-7ml lusgro aqua twice a week, and 1ml of KH2PO4, due to my heavy bioload of fish. I do dose more K and some KNO3. Sometime i dont dose KH2PO4 if i feed more to the fish. And i got high lighting of 3X24(previously 84W) T5 light for a 1.5ft tank. Over dose of fert you will have issue, lesser is better than more as you can add more later.


haha I am following the dmdd calculator mah, 20ml/day just nice to achieve the necessary nutrients for each day.

I will reduce the dose.well now I am basically testings things out after I cant get things right in the initial start.

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## alechim

> Just trim the BBA leaves and do follow the manufacturer's recommendation till your tank is on 'wildfire' mode.


My HG with BBA are too many to be trimed, if I were to trim i might as well remove all the HG haha :Laughing:

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## torque6

I think the more work we put into getting them to grow, the more problems we are facing. I am already seriously considering stopping all dosing , remove co2 and let it be.

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## alechim

Yeah. shared the same sentiments as you. But I am more extremem, thinking of doing another scape all over again

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## torque6

hehehe, i've already started preparing for my next scape  :Smile: . Will decommission the hairgrass + moss tank in 6-9 weeks time, depending on the stability of the new tank.

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## Verminator

I don't understand this decomisioning of tanks. Why can't people just create a tank and admire it for years to come. Sure its fun to create new tanks, and indulge yourself further and further into the aquatics world but honestly...

I'd rather create a beautiful scape and maintain it for years and years, as a permanent home for a breeding pair of stunning fish. With a maintenance crew of otto's and shrimp. Living in perfect harmony for years to come. Ahhhh, thats bliss.

An update on my HG, 3 weeks on possibly 4, and it apparently hasnt grown much, maybe 1-3 new stems here and there. No spreading, still looks like the original patches i planted. I do hope others have more luck than i appear to be having.

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## alechim

We do want to create a scape that can be enjoy for long but looking at the situation where nothing is going right even as we try, isn't it wiser rework rather than having to get vex and fustrated over why the scape is in such a bad shape?

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## Verminator

I suppose, but even you must admit theres a few people, especially on here i've noticed who scape a tank, leave it for say two months...only to decomision it to make a new scape.

I can see the positives, but i personally prefere a fixed set-up to enjoy and maintain. Even when its going wrong, like mine. Which has been going wrong and looking basically appalling for nearly two years now. Only recently is it beginning to pick up.

There does come apoint when enough is enough though, and a complete rescape is in order.

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## alechim

I do really wanted to make things right, but it just gets worst whenever I try.My current scape is almost a year old. Imagine having to go through the agony for 1 year!

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## StanChung

I think you have to understand that HG when you plant it, it's the roots that are important. After planting, we cut the top off and just leave a 1-2 cm hairy stub sticking out of the substrate. This is because the old leaves would age faster and die and BBA would grow on it.

Patience is the key. If there's no patience, then this is not the hobby for you. When I 1st started there were no forums to ask. everything trial and error until the wallet became very thin.

Plants were outrageously priced, die without knowing the cause.

Took me two years to realise glosso needed a lot of light. My tanks were 2ft height.
Bolbitis, 2 years as well, temperature and lighting. always thought low light was good enough.
CO2 and overhead filters. Was running that setup for 3 years before lightbulb moment.
I mean that's me-preseverance and dumb determination to conquer. Giving up now is a pity because IMHO, you're very close to cracking it.

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## blue33

My experienced on HG is if starting you plant too deep, grow is slow and BBA starts to grow, so what i do is when i plant it in i'll put them upwards till i see the slight rooting and trim the tips, but again the fauna occasionally disturb the HG and it starts to float.  :Knockout:  

Planting needs alot of patience in the initial stage and later maintaining is another thing again, this is really part of the hobby cycle. Almost everyday i'll look at the plant and see what is happening inside cause plants do tell you something is right or wrong.

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## Verminator

I think you've just solved my HG issue there StanChung  :Grin:  I havnt trimmed in for the month its been planted. Would it be worth me pushing them all in so the top 1-2cm is showing, then trim it off to the level of the gravel? Hopefully fish won't dig them up then and thus new leaves/roots shall form?

Just a suggestion, would it be worthwhile doing so?

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## alechim

I did plant normally and trimed them till 1-2cm from the gravel. Growth is slow and BBA starts to infest. I did try all the methods many bros here mentioned, high lightings, high CO2, proper circulations, low current, ferts. They just do not work. Maybe its just how to work out the magical % mixture of these to achieve a good HG growth

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## torque6

> I don't understand this decomisioning of tanks. Why can't people just create a tank and admire it for years to come. Sure its fun to create new tanks, and indulge yourself further and further into the aquatics world but honestly...
> 
> I'd rather create a beautiful scape and maintain it for years and years, as a permanent home for a breeding pair of stunning fish. With a maintenance crew of otto's and shrimp. Living in perfect harmony for years to come. Ahhhh, thats bliss.


Hi verminator, i agree to some extent to your comment. However, with 4 blackouts, 2 EM dosing, putting effort into EI dosing, co2 and have little or no growth compared to some here with low tech really eats into your confidence. I'm however not decommissioning tanks at whim and fancy, but seriously after 7 months of maintainance... nothing mate. No improvement. And ironically seems alechim and myself have identified this problem with a hairgrass+ moss combo. True or not, we really dont know.

I find myself staring at the tank and listing down the stuff i should have done initially. With this in mind, wouldnt you want to decommission it and restart over with what you have learnt, hoping whatever additional new experience you have learnt be finally put to good use?

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## Verminator

I suppose put in that perspective i fully understand your desire to restart. Maybe after 24 months now i aught to do the same. Who knows haha. I was refering to the decomissioning of tanks in the way Jervis seems too haha. Perfectly good tanks he creates, if only he kept all of them instead of remaking new ones from old ones ect.

With regards to your tanks, i dont want to sound patronising as you may already know/do this. But sometimes its little things such as water hardness. Also i have found that certainly here in the UK atleast, water parameters vary up and down the country. Tap water from one place can contain more of one substance and less of another to that of a house 5 miles down the road. As i said, don't want to sound patronising  :Smile:

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## alechim

What I really want to do now is probably to rescape but I will never give up on HG. Maybe I had made some mistakes during the initial start which caused such poor growth.

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## Verminator

I know my problem. Using a fully established tank with 20+ fish in. Fish with bad habbits for digging and i thought it would be a good idea to try and grow a lawn of HG, its definately not happening. Very little growth in 3 weeks and a hell of a lot of replanting daily.

Can tropical fish be placed with goldfish, even if its temporary for a month do you reckon? If thats possible i may be ok, and can grow my plants fish-free initially.

***SIGH***

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## naturalmystic

This is a very educational thread.
I'm replacing my Glosso with Dwarf HG soon.
Hopefully, like the name implies, it would not need constant trimming  :Smile: 

Been reading this thread and saw somewhere that a bro here left the pots for a week (?) in the tank (?) before actually planting the HG.
Could not pinpoint the exact post and this is a long thread!
This is interesting and I will definitely try it out on a pail of water first.
Will this escalate the plants acclimatisation from emmersed to submersed form?

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## StanChung

Hi Verminator,

It's always a good idea to let the lawn grow before introducing digging fish like loaches and cories. Plecos are definitely not a good idea unless everything you plant is secured with wire or string! [or plastic!]

Old leaves always get BBA in my tanks and SNIP! Looks great after a simple trim. Some people do so little maintenance and expect beautiful tanks. That's not how it works with planted tanks. You can get away with reasonably nice tanks with minimal maintenance but you still have to check on it once awhile like how you would your outdoor garden.

Anytime you add in a fish, you're upsetting the ecological balance. Every bit of extra food etc. That's why it's always a good idea to reset the tank with a nice 30-50&#37; WC and dose accordingly. You can dose weekly, bi weekly, tri-weekly, daily- EI, PPS, ADA, whatever style but essentially, if something's not right, a good 50% WC to reset the tank. Unclog the filter if you haven't touched it for more than 2 months.

Ooops! Rambling-but it's all connected. You can't add more of anything without consequence. Even if you're not, the hunger in the tank is growing exponentially as it grows. You, as the owner, is the *stabiliser*!

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## blue33

> Hi Verminator,
> 
> It's always a good idea to let the lawn grow before introducing digging fish like loaches and cories. Plecos are definitely not a good idea unless everything you plant is secured with wire or string! [or plastic!]
> 
> Old leaves always get BBA in my tanks and SNIP! Looks great after a simple trim. Some people do so little maintenance and expect beautiful tanks. That's not how it works with planted tanks. You can get away with reasonably nice tanks with minimal maintenance but you still have to check on it once awhile like how you would your outdoor garden.
> 
> Anytime you add in a fish, you're upsetting the ecological balance. Every bit of extra food etc. That's why it's always a good idea to reset the tank with a nice 30-50% WC and dose accordingly. You can dose weekly, bi weekly, tri-weekly, daily- EI, PPS, ADA, whatever style but essentially, if something's not right, a good 50% WC to reset the tank. Unclog the filter if you haven't touched it for more than 2 months.
> 
> Ooops! Rambling-but it's all connected. You can't add more of anything without consequence. Even if you're not, the hunger in the tank is growing exponentially as it grows. You, as the owner, is the *stabiliser*!


Absolutely the way to go!  :Laughing:

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## alechim

The problem is "striking" that balance. After all these while I have not find the nice combi yet  :Laughing:

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## torque6

> I suppose put in that perspective i fully understand your desire to restart. Maybe after 24 months now i aught to do the same. Who knows haha. I was refering to the decomissioning of tanks in the way Jervis seems too haha. Perfectly good tanks he creates, if only he kept all of them instead of remaking new ones from old ones ect.


 :Laughing: , some of us setup new tanks and maintains them, jervis dedicates his time to create them thus the frequent decommission and new tanks  :Smile: . There are 2 ways of look at this hobby, both equally enriching and enjoyable.

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## blue33

> The problem is "striking" that balance. After all these while I have not find the nice combi yet


Every single tank setup, the needs and supply is different, also different people maintaining it is different also. It takes a while, trial and error what best for your plants and setup. Thats part of this hobby and make it enjoyable, the return is good.

During my first setup of my planted tank, my wife and son would tell me the plant is not growing well and is dying.  :Crying:  Now they dont!  :Smug:  Now they start to enjoy the beauty of this hobby.  :Smile:  A mini water garden in the house.  :Laughing:

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## alechim

Update Update : HG growing like "wildfire" finally!

What I did :

1. Maintained 15ml Lushgro & 6ml KH2PO4 twice a week with extra dose of ADA Brighty K everyday

2. Lifted HG up a little to loosen substrate

3. Lowered T5 lights to only 48watts with 8hrs photoperiod and 2hrs siesta in between.

4. Trimed HG infested with BBA to my best effort. Still has alot though.

p.s. guess the extra dose of brighty K did the work. Let me maintain the same regime and see if everything turns out well

I am starting another Nano tank growing HG emerse. Doing extremely well.

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## blue33

> Update Update : HG growing like "wildfire" finally!
> 
> What I did :
> 
> 1. Maintained 15ml Lushgro & 6ml KH2PO4 twice a week with extra dose of ADA Brighty K everyday
> 
> 2. Lifted HG up a little to loosen substrate
> 
> 3. Lowered T5 lights to only 48watts with 8hrs photoperiod and 2hrs siesta in between.
> ...


Good to hear that bro!  :Jump for joy:

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## torque6

So the trick is daily dosage of K ??

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## blue33

> So the trick is daily dosage of K ??


K is important as i've mentioned, but too much there's side effect to it. The old hobbyist people call K as "make plant open the mouth" to consume.  :Surprised:  Anyway glad to see another successful case.  :Wink:   :Jump for joy:

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## route

great! i just bought seachem K today.. just made the first dose today.. will continue with the dose since i dont have any live stocks in the tank currently  :Smile:  hopefully my HG grows well..

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## blue33

> great! i just bought seachem K today.. just made the first dose today.. will continue with the dose since i dont have any live stocks in the tank currently  hopefully my HG grows well..


If you need to dose often, get dry fert Lusgro Potassium Sulfate, unless you have deep pockets.  :Cool:

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## route

is that better than the seachem potassium ? 
how much does it cost and where can i get it ?  :Smile:  thanks

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## blue33

> is that better than the seachem potassium ? 
> how much does it cost and where can i get it ?  thanks


Seachem is liquid whereas Lusgro is dry(mix with water) fert. Lusgro you can get from NA.

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## route

sorry, what are the advantages of dry form ?  :Smile:

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## blue33

> sorry, what are the advantages of dry form ?


Is cheaper, but you got to mix it with water yourself, unlike liquid fert is pre-prepared by the manufacturer. You are paying more for the pre-prepared liquid fert, but it save you time.

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## plant talk

> Is cheaper, but you got to mix it with water yourself, unlike liquid fert is pre-prepared by the manufacturer. You are paying more for the pre-prepared liquid fert, but it save you time.


I got a question,can the dry foam fertilizer be dose directly into the main tank without mixing it with water?

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## route

> Is cheaper, but you got to mix it with water yourself, unlike liquid fert is pre-prepared by the manufacturer. You are paying more for the pre-prepared liquid fert, but it save you time.


Thanks alot... will look out for it  :Grin:

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## alechim

> So the trick is daily dosage of K ??


I resumed my old fert regime and the only change is the extra K doseage. So I think its the K that did the difference.

I am continuing to dose the same thing for 2 weeks and update again.

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## torque6

> I resumed my old fert regime and the only change is the extra K doseage. So I think its the K that did the difference.
> I am continuing to dose the same thing for 2 weeks and update again.


But im pretty much dosing K 4 times per week ?
seachem Nitrogen -KNO3, thrice per week
seachem Potassium - once per week
seachem equilbrium - which also has K...

The other 2 days i was dosing traces, since i didnt want to have NPK+ traces which could result in precipitation.

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## PeterGwee

No PO4?

Regards,
Peter Gwee

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## StanChung

Hi Torque,

I'm quite certain you have the Japanese hairgrass that is _Eleocharis sp._

The one you compared it to on page 5 is straighter and longer[ _E. parvula_] whereas the one you have is very curly and short.

Japanese hairgrass does NOT grow like wildfire IME. It's much slower, at least a month slower to fully carpet a lawn.

I just spent and hour this morning and again just now separating the two for a rescape after mistakenly planting them together. Tedious.
You can refer to this picture by Nasir.



The two on the left are _E. parvula_ whereas the two on the right are _Eleocharis sp_ aka Japanese hairgrass.

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## torque6

> No PO4?
> 
> Regards,
> Peter Gwee


Peter, i dose PO4, same day as KNO3. I didnt list it as it doesnt contain K, the traces were there to indicate the days i didnt want to mix NPK with it.

Stan,
the 2 hairgrass on the far right is similar to the hairgrass i am having. Yes, i am aware it takes 1 month or more to fully carpet the tank, however, i have been maintaining my for 8 months, 20cm cube, so far up to this date less than half is covered.

Some areas i have noticed new shoots and runnings coming up, but those runners at near the glass seems to get block by my larger sediments above and the new shoots just curled right under them, unable to push right up.

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## Verminator

StanChung. I have Eleocharis Parvula which i bought from Ben (MizuWorld) and it grows about 3cm like the one on the right in your image but straight up not curling back at all. You said E. parvula was the one on the left in your image, but mine grows nothing like the heigh of them... Mine grow literally between 2-3cm tall and form clusters very close the 'mother plant'. With my substrate size of between 7-10mm it doesnt spread much and i struggle to keep it rooted, with clumps often breaking loose and heading straight for my filter  :Knockout: 

I'm confused?

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## alechim

> Peter, i dose PO4, same day as KNO3. I didnt list it as it doesnt contain K, the traces were there to indicate the days i didnt want to mix NPK with it.
> 
> Stan,
> the 2 hairgrass on the far right is similar to the hairgrass i am having. Yes, i am aware it takes 1 month or more to fully carpet the tank, however, i have been maintaining my for 8 months, 20cm cube, so far up to this date less than half is covered.
> 
> Some areas i have noticed new shoots and runnings coming up, but those runners at near the glass seems to get block by my larger sediments above and the new shoots just curled right under them, unable to push right up.


I am pretty much experiencing the same problem as you. I suspect the grain size is big and probably the sediments are too compact for the HG to grow freely. In my scape, the HG is growing much better than the other. The only difference is the substrate in that area is more loosely packed.

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## torque6

Just highlighting my observations as im not too "worried" in rectifying my HG growth right now  :Grin: . A couple of more months and my new project should be ready. All the lessons learnt through ensuring good HG growth and discussing with you guys has really paid off. :Well done:

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## alechim

Updates Updates : I am decomming my not so successful HG tank and restarting another project. Gimme some pointers and suggestions.

I am intending to do up a 1.5ft shrimp tank with HC. Will try growing HC emerse before flooding. CO2 injection and at least 48watt T5 lighting. Tank will be in office, so temperature will be low. Any bro can suggest roughly how will the fert regime will be(most probably using lushgro or ADA cos I have lots left over)? And what fast growing plants should I plant to get a proper planted growth to avoid algae boom?

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## Verminator

During emerse stage keep it moist and temperature around 25oC if possible. Thats the only advice i can give seeing as though my HC growth was fine emmerse and as soon as i flooded it went wrong for me.

Interesting to see others pointers here.

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## torque6

> Added my HG grown in hightech with NPK daily dosing. 3 months set up 
> 
> VS
> 
> No tech, no fert, no wc, little or no effort.
> 
> This goes to show life is not fair and there should not be any comparison.....


noticable "slow" growth after clearing my BGA a month back and have been dosing additional K.

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## torque6

> During emerse stage keep it moist and temperature around 25oC if possible. Thats the only advice i can give seeing as though my HC growth was fine emmerse and as soon as i flooded it went wrong for me.
> Interesting to see others pointers here.


?? how do you maintain tank temp at 25 degrees ? I am using ziplock wrap to prevent moisture from escaping in the tank, but i believe the stagnant air in it should be around 29-30 degrees...... I am just placing 12cm DIY fan on the PL housing so theres minimum heat transfer.

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## StanChung

> StanChung. I have Eleocharis Parvula which i bought from Ben (MizuWorld) and it grows about 3cm like the one on the right in your image but straight up not curling back at all. You said E. parvula was the one on the left in your image, but mine grows nothing like the heigh of them... Mine grow literally between 2-3cm tall and form clusters very close the 'mother plant'. With my substrate size of between 7-10mm it doesnt spread much and i struggle to keep it rooted, with clumps often breaking loose and heading straight for my filter 
> 
> I'm confused?


Hi Verminator, If your HG is the one Torque posted above, I'm certain it's not E. parvula. It's Eleocharis sp. -Japapnese hairgrass. It's 1/2 to 1/3 the height of E. parvula.

So far I've cultivate both side by side and the Japanese hairgrass is much slower and harder to get the 'wildfire' growth.

I will post my findings. I've just started a Jap HG tank, it's slowwww.

E parvula on a scale hardness of 1-5 is a 2-3.
Japanese HG is a 4.

I currently grow 4 types of HG.
_E vivipara- tall, lots of plantlets at tips. Darkest among all. Great for tall tanks.
E acicularis- very wavy- not as tall. can reach 20cm height. Nice fg for big tanks.
E parvula- shorter and slightly curly. 'Fuji green'.
E.sp japanese._ very short and curly 2-3 cm height. Bright green.

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## Verminator

@ *torque6:* Bearing in mind i am within the UK, our temperature is lower in general. Meaning its easier to maintain lower temperatures. My tank without a heater naturally stands at 22oC and in the summer months at its highest it may hit 27oC on it own without heaters or anything.


@ *StanChung:* No i definately have E. Parvula. Mine grows straight to about 2-3cm at the moment. I'm struggling to get good growth + spreading. Although it looks like its picking up a little in last few days. Very few loose strands floating up and new single strand sections can be seen breaking away from the 'mother' plant, a couple of grains away from the base of the original i mean. So fingers crossed it should be on track and pick up from now. Shall keep dosing ferts, although i just bought two Jack Dempseys for this tank meaning i shall remove my 'lawn' and replant in my 1ft cubes when i start them in a week or so.

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## StanChung

Hi Verminator, 
It does better in soil IME, without digging fishes. Best results are often to put in the fishes at least two weeks after planting. I'm having trouble with my 5ft tank as the cories like to dig but it was much easier in my newer 2ft setup.

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## Verminator

In a few days my new cabinet shall arive, enabling me to set-up my much anticipated new 1ft tanks. Which i shall be experimenting with various low growing plants in. Also going to re-do my 2ft to make it suitable for my clown loach and evicted gourami's

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