# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk > Aquatic Moss Club >  I need help from the moss experts!

## imported_brbarkey

My willow moss is not doing very well...I have a 29 gallon tank that gets 110 watts of 6700k light. The pH is 7.1, the kh is 14, and gh is around 17. I fertilize about every other day with dosing N,P,K and trace. I dont have the exact measurments of these becuase if changes day to day. The moss is mostly brown with some green tips, but its not as thick or dark green. I also have 3 adult SAE in that tank.

thanks 
brb

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## rthien

Ben,

Firstly, I won't consider myself a moss expert but then again, my moss is doing quite well in my tank.

One of the most important considerations for moss to thrive based on my experience is the temperature of the water. In Singapore, where I live, if I turn on my lights for a duration of say 10 hours, by the end of the lighting period, my water temperature can be as high as 35C. When that happened, my moss was browning. To overcome the problem, I invested in a chiller to maintain a water temperature of about 24-25C and since then, my moss has been thriving.

Based on your GH, KH and PH parameters, it seems like you are not using any CO2. My water parameters are the following:

PH 6.4
KH 4
GH 7

Some do report that moss do well without CO2 in their tanks but I have never been able to achieve this. And from what I gather, moss that thrive well without CO2 are also populated using the emmerse growing method.

I am not sure if I am helping much but that is all I can share with my successes with keeping moss.

Cheers,

Roger Thien

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## strung_0ut

I think its your SAE's from what I've read around, never had em before. The cold water HELPS a lot. I've seen major changes the same day when I cool down the temperature with ice along with the differences from a cooler tank and a warmer tank.

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## imported_brbarkey

> Ben,
> 
> Based on your GH, KH and PH parameters, it seems like you are not using any CO2. 
> Roger Thien


Are you sure that I dont have enough CO2?...I am using this calculator 
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

which has my CO2 at 33 ppm

My water is also kept at a constant 26 C...Im starting to think that it is my SAE...perhaps its time to find a new algea eater...do any shrimp eat moss?

ben

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## PeterGwee

Ben, your CO2 is fine for the tank. Just double check on the am and pm CO2 levels to make sure that it stays near the high levels and does not drop lower than 20ppm and not higher than 35pm if you can help it.

You have loads of light over a tank with only moss? You really don't need 3.8w/gallon of lighting for growing moss. 2w/gallon is more than enough for the purpose and that means less dosing of fert to keep up with.

Maybe in the meantime, you can give folks here more clue/data on your tank so that we can help you better.

Tank size: 29 gallons
Light: 3.8w/g
CO2: 33ppm (Double check to make sure it stays high during the photoperiod)
Temp: 26 degree celsius
Fert dosing regime:
NO3:
PO4:
K:
traces:
Critter loading:
Plants planted in the tank and how heavily planted (a picture would be best):

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

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## imported_brbarkey

Pete...I wish I could give you a picture...The tank is heavly planted...glosso everywhere, java ferns, anubias, hair grass, star grass....
I have the CO2 on a pH controller so I never worry about the levels  :Very Happy:  
as for the omitted ferts they are in the ranges where they should be
NO3 5 ppm
PO4 .1 -.2 ppm
K enough...
11 glow light tetras 
3 SAE
6 OTO
2 Shrimp

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## PeterGwee

Are the other plants in your tank growing well? Any funny growth of deficiency symptoms especially the glosso? (Glosso are NO3 hogs and will stunt when the NO3 is too low. Most cheap NO3 kits we use are not very good for the range we need for planted tanks.) PO4 seems a tad low here and there might be issues of the kit measuring organic PO4 instead in which the plants cannot use.

I suggest a routine for you if you don't mind the weekly 50% water change. It corrects deficiency by making sure there are enough nutrients by dosing 2-3 times per week while the 50% water change corrects the dosing errors. (The plants might not be growing well and hence an excess in nutrients would result from it while the water change corrects it.)

Assuming your tap water is relatively free from NO3 and PO4, you can do the following routine.

Prune and remove any algae or dead looking leaves
Clean filter if necessary
50% water change
Add dechlorinator
Check the CO2 level (In your case, make sure the pH probe is well calibrated)
1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 2x a week
1/4 teaspoon of K2SO4 only after water change
2 rice grains of KH2PO4 2x per week
5-6ml of traces 2x a week

If you get good plant growth/mass, you can try increasing the dosage of the KNO3, KH2PO4 and traces to 3x a week. You might need to fine tune the routine a bit if your tap water has quite a bit of NO3 and PO4 though. Call your water supplier and ask for the NO3 and PO4 readings and adjust the routine from there.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

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## caseSENSITIVE

(1) Moss tends to collect lots of detritus/dusts, that would cut the moss strands from access to light --> browning except for the growing tips.

(2) When I overdose iron, my moss will get black/brown. At the same time, I will start to see thread algae, which is a clear indication that there's excess iron in the water column. These two problems usually go hand-in-hand in my aquarium. Does anyone have similar experiences?

If all else fails, then try dosing less of the trace solution to see if your condition improves.




> My water is also kept at a constant 26 C...Im starting to think that it is my SAE...perhaps its time to find a new algea eater...do any shrimp eat moss?


Shrimps do not eat moss intentionally. The bumble bees and tiger shrimps do eat soft mosses but not so much as to be noticeable.

SAEs are another matter. They will nibble all the new side growths, but the individual moss strands should still be green. I doubt it's the SAE. But if your moss are spindly, then try taking them out of the tank. If you experience BBA, then increase CO2 level.

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## timebomb

I don't own any test kits so I'm never sure what's inside my water. I have many brands of liquid fertilisers in my cupboard but I rarely use them. The last time I poured a few capfuls of Tropica Mastergrow haphazardly into my main tank, it cause a major algae outbreak. Obviously, I must have dose a capful too many. Frequent water changes and a big bunch of Hornwort dumped into the tank have eradicated most of the algae. 

As far as I know, moss needs very little fertiliser. I have many small bunches of mosses in small trays everywhere around the house. I use them to raise killifish fry. These trays are often left in dark places under a bench which I use to hold fish tanks. Sometimes, these trays are left for months under the bench but the moss stays alive and does not turn brown. 

As for SAEs, only adult ones eat mosses. Juvenile SAEs won't. 

A friend in Singapore suspects that I have some closely guarded secret to grow the mosses but honestly, I don't. He thinks I pee into my tank everyday and that, he believes is the secret to grow moss successfully. But I live with 4 women in the house and if they see me peeing into my tank, they would surely scream  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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## hwchoy

I grow many plants some people considers difficult into massive jungles, but the one plant that wouldn't grow for me is moss. I hardly dose fertilisers, and I live with 3 women in the house, so that can't be the reason.

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## Felix Wong

Forgive my ignorance, by the way, what is SAE?
Felix

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## hwchoy

> Forgive my ignorance, by the way, what is SAE?
> Felix


the Siamese Algae Eater _Crossocheilus siamensis_ (1024×76 :Cool:

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## timebomb

That's a very nice pic of an SAE, Choy. Do you have a pic of the false one? It would be good to let the newbies here know that there's also a false SAE around. By the way, I think you need one more woman in the house. The secret is having 4  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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## budak

one woman is enough, thank you. 

My excess mosses share my bathroom in a dingy plastic tank.

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## hwchoy

> That's a very nice pic of an SAE, Choy. Do you have a pic of the false one? It would be good to let the newbies here know that there's also a false SAE around. By the way, I think you need one more woman in the house. The secret is having 4 
> 
> Loh K L


The SAE is rather tricky as the scales reflects a different colour when shot with flash. I do not have a pic of false SAE unfortunately, unless someone in the forum has one to T-loan.

Budak, timebomb is right, the trick is to have adequate number of women so they can keep each other busy  :Very Happy:  (ladies, just kidding  :Laughing:  )

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## timebomb

> one woman is enough, thank you.


Budak, I want to pinch your cheeks. You look so cute in your avatar  :Laughing: 

Seriously, I hope you will try and persuade your "other half" to come here and moderate a sub-forum which I'm planning on creating. It's for people to chat about topics other than fish. It's often called a "chit-chat" sub-forum in other message boards but I would prefer not to call it by that name because the very term "chit-chat" seem to imply frivolity and superficiality. 

Mrs Budak, as I said in an earlier post, would be the perfect person to moderate a sub-forum for people to talk about topics other than fish. But until the day Mrs Budak agrees to moderate it or when I find someone just as ideal, I will shelve the idea to create such a sub-forum.

Loh K L

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## caseSENSITIVE

> That's a very nice pic of an SAE, Choy. Do you have a pic of the false one? It would be good to let the newbies here know that there's also a false SAE around.


Here is a picture that compares the true SAE with the various lookalikes. And here is a detailed picture of the true SAE with all the distinguishing characteristics.

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## imported_brbarkey

Thanks everyone for the replies...I kinda forgot I posted this  :Opps:  As for the SAE's I think they are the culprit...they are all adults and I always see their noses down in the stuff. I will try to get some algea waffers or something and see if that improves...if it doesnt I will try and pee in the tank per timebomb's suggestion.  :Very Happy:

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## hwchoy

caseSENSITIVE, that was a very useful chart, especially for those who have never seen an SAE. Certainly almost NEVER to trust the LFS.

One characteristic that was not mentioned in the chart, but a very visible one (vs counting barbels) is the gold stripe above the black. The real SAE has the black stripe merging into the reticulated scales on the back thus making it look "jagged", whilst the others actually have a gold/yellow band above the black the black band appear smooth.

here's a video of the SAE so you can observe its characteristic movement  right-click and save

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## discusdave

I have two sub adult SAEs in a 30 gallon with erect moss growing, and they haven't touched it yet. I also have two FFFs (Jordanella floridae) in there and they haven't touched it either.

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## timebomb

> I have two sub adult SAEs in a 30 gallon with erect moss growing, and they haven't touched it yet.


Don't be too sure about that, Dave. I have never actually seen the SAEs eating the moss. It's all circumstantial evidence, if you know what I mean. Remove your SAEs and I bet you will see prolific growth in the mosses. 

Loh K L

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## discusdave

I was expecting to see stripped fronds. None of that. Do the SAEs keep the Erect Moss clipped, in other words?

I can always pull them and see what happens.

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## imported_brbarkey

Dave I know thats what my SAE's do to my willow moss

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## discusdave

I pulled the SAEs tonight. We'll see what happens.

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## timebomb

> I was expecting to see stripped fronds. None of that. Do the SAEs keep the Erect Moss clipped, in other words?


Adults SAEs prune the new growth so it's not obvious that they are eating the mosses. In certain fish tanks in some local fish shops, I have seen really hungry SAEs prune the moss to the extent where only the branches are left.

Now that you have taken them out from your tank, I believe you will see prolific growth. Plvp told me in a private email that his Erect Moss is growing *very well* in his tank. The fact that he said *very well* after seeing the picture of your Erect Moss would indicate yours are lagging behind in growth. Unfortunately, Plvp does not own a digital camera so he couldn't send any pics. But I'm sure he would send one later.

Loh K L

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## discusdave

Kwek Leong,
I will take a picture of the Erect Moss now and email it to you and you can compare it with the first I have already sent. I'll send another after a week or so with no SAEs in the tank.

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## kc

Peter,

The way you write it, I think I need to get tuition from you. 

I don't bother with all the hassle of KH, NO, etc. No wonder my mosses as like shit.

KC

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## imported_brbarkey

> In certain fish tanks in some local fish shops, I have seen really hungry SAEs prune the moss to the extent where only the branches are left.


LOL Loh K L Thats Exactly what my moss looks like there are no fronds left at all  :Mad:

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