# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Invertebrates >  Project Quiet River Shrimp Rack

## Navanod

Hi bros,

A sneak peek at what's happening  :Grin: .

This just arrived over the weekends from Fishy Business, a 4ft x 2ft x 1ft triple tiered rack


Top tier is a mirror of the 2nd tier. Bottom tier is a sump box


The aim of the project is to start a dedicated shrimp rack.
I wanted it to:

1. Be quiet. So no airpumps, noisy overflows and water splashes.
2. Have good directional water flow, similar to how a river would cascade & flow.
3. Have good surface agitation and skimming to promote oxygenation.
4. Runs off a single chiller.
5. Use minimal soil in the tank (use the sump instead for pH control).
6. Be as fail safe as possible, especially against flooding.
7. Have separate dedicated canister filters for both tiers. Over-filteration and a large water volume is the key.

The trade off of course is that the entire rack will also share the same water parameters, and if anything goes wrong, I may lose the entire rack.
The achilles heel of the rack is the chiller and its associated powerhead. If that fails, there's no backup.

On paper, this is the design.


Now, its time to work on the DIY PVC pipings!



Stay tuned for the progress and the list of equipment... :Evil:

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## eviltrain

woot!!! im first to line up! more poison please!!!

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## xconnect.

Wow all the best man keep the poison flowing and do up date us with pictures

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## alvinchan80

Serious poisoning in progress... Keep updating your set up...

Seriously lots of partitions to do culls.. Hahaha..

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## revo79

Another big project coming up. Looking forward to your tank updates.

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## reiner09

hoho..what is this man...a double storey mansion for shrimps?

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## rolex

Another Impressive set up. 
Nice design. 
Please share more pictures when cycling tank
Happy shrimping all

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## Ecalyte

Very very nice man.. hope to see more pictures soon!!

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## newlife

Wow wow.....BIG BIG PROJECT man...
Waiting Waiting for it to move it move it...

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## Noobz

Drooling. Can't wait to see your setup.

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## Apistoinka

Can't wait to see whats the outcome... Even I don't keep shrimp but I'm excited to see the setup...

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## BFG

Er, why do you need 3 set of pvc pipes per tank? To complete your setup, get an auto top off system and a pail to store ro/di water for automatic water top up.

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## nasty12

another amazing project!!! 
Good luck bro!

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## cheetf

Looks really complicated man! Camping here  :Razz:

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## Navanod

Thanks bros for all the encouragements. I'll explain some of the design as I go along with the project log. This weekend will be the PVC assembly and I'll explain the 3 pipe design and where I stole it from :-)

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## Jovel

Autocad? awesome bro  :Wink:  looking forward to your progress. And you really got to get a big *** chiller to power it all. Good Luck!

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## xconnect.

I think the three piping is to simulate even river flow to the zigzag pattern of your tank

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## Mafia00

wow! a big project, must have plan it very well before ordering the tank. 

Cant wait for more updates!

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## rascal

nice!!! good luck bro!!!! post more pic...

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## RonWill

> I think the three piping is to simulate even river flow to the zigzag pattern of your tank


 River current is possible with 3 incoming stream of water but how to zigzag when the bulkheads are inside a single-end partition and flowing from it??? Best one can achieve is even flow *only* to the 1st shrimp partition.

I'm with BFG using one main out-pipe but if you look closely (left end of middle tier tank), Navanod's design has 1 PVC in-take elbow facing up and 2 facing down ... *very puzzled*

Both halves of all usable partitions are based on under-flow, passing through a narrow partition, before over flowing to the end-partition and down to next tank, not directly to sump!! IMHO, that essentially means most bio-loading from top tank is added onto 2nd tier... hmm...

Navanod, since your inflow is based on overflow from 1st glass partition, I suggest you check & double check the floor's leveling because that will influence how much water flows into each half of each tier. Confused? I am too  :Grin: 

2. Have good directional water flow, similar to how a river would cascade & flow.
Hate to pop your bubble but even-flow, not directional, is only for 1st shrimp partition. A height difference (from inflow partition to tank's water level) will not prevent shrimps from climbing over.

3. Have good surface agitation and skimming to promote oxygenation.
Under-flowing partitions are never known to have surface agitation unless you have a rainbar running across all shrimp partitions ...and skimming is possible only with overflow, not underflow.

5. Use minimal soil in the tank (use the sump instead for pH control).
Judging from the diagram & image, you will need a generous amount of soil to close the partition's bottom gap, which doesn't prevent shrimplets from crawling through.

6. Be as fail safe as possible, especially against flooding.
That depends on how quickly the underflow gap gets clogged up (then you'll have free overflow over shrimp partitions) and how you control water level in the sump.

7. Have separate dedicated canister filters for both tiers. Over-filteration and a large water volume is the key.
Which means 2 canister filters, plus a big-butt return pump, which takes another toll on the chiller...

[email protected] I'll be waiting for updates!!  :Grin:

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## huizhong

very solid tanks and design. but i would agree with Ronwill that u need alo of soil from the partition height.
from what i understand is that u are making a overflowing method from 1 partition to the other? i feel this method will not partition the shrimps. they will swim over eventually to the last partition in each tank. shrimps can even climb up out of water for a short moment. i see in youtube before. haha. so i think u need to do some diy on the overflow design such as putting wire meshes.

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## BFG

> very solid tanks and design. but i would agree with Ronwill that u need alo of soil from the partition height.
> from what i understand is that u are making a overflowing method from 1 partition to the other? i feel this method will not partition the shrimps. they will swim over eventually to the last partition in each tank. shrimps can even climb up out of water for a short moment. i see in youtube before. haha. so i think u need to do some diy on the overflow design such as putting wire meshes.


Watch your sms language usage.

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## Navanod

So many responses! Let me firstly apologize for not posting more after the sneak peek. I can only work on the project this weekend and so have no pictures to show & pictures speaks a thousand words rather than me spamming a wall of text. However, I really appreciate the advice and pointers coming in!




> Er, why do you need 3 set of pvc pipes per tank? To complete your setup, get an auto top off system and a pail to store ro/di water for automatic water top up.


The 3 pipes design is mainly for flood proofing (redundancy) and to silent the sound of water gurgling as it flows down the pipes. Kinda like a Durso pipe design, but with an extra pipe.
The design came from marine tanks, where chokes can cause a major flood in the room, and when noise kinda spoils the calm and peace of the tank. This is a video of the pipes in action. Notice the silence once the 2nd (low flow pipe) gets pushed underwater.



Its not for zigzaging river currents! Hahaha!




> River current is possible with 3 incoming stream of water but how to zigzag when the bulkheads are inside a single-end partition and flowing from it??? Best one can achieve is even flow *only* to the 1st shrimp partition.
> 
> I'm with BFG using one main out-pipe but if you look closely (left end of middle tier tank), Navanod's design has 1 PVC in-take elbow facing up and 2 facing down ... *very puzzled*
> 
> Both halves of all usable partitions are based on under-flow, passing through a narrow partition, before over flowing to the end-partition and down to next tank, not directly to sump!! IMHO, that essentially means most bio-loading from top tank is added onto 2nd tier... hmm...
> 
> Navanod, since your inflow is based on overflow from 1st glass partition, I suggest you check & double check the floor's leveling because that will influence how much water flows into each half of each tier. Confused? I am too 
> 
> 2. Have good directional water flow, similar to how a river would cascade & flow.
> ...


That upturned elbow is the safety pipe. In the event of a choke in the main or 2nd pipe, water level in the end partition will rise above this elbow and be drained by this 3rd pipe, an making lotsa noise in the process to alarm me. The 2nd pipe also have an airline that will turn it into a full siphon once water level goes above a certain level, allowing the 2nd pipe to handle more flow. In another words, unless something cracks, or 2 out of 3 pipes gets totally choked by plants, crap or things that falls in by accident, the chances of a flood is slim.
I'm not home most of the time and this is really for peace of mind.

You can google Bean Animal's overflow for more info as this design was by him.
Mine is slightly modified but the basics are identical.


I'm not so worried about the bioload from top tank being dumped on the bottom tank. The large water volume and additional canisters should be able to deal with it.

Very good point about the floor leveling! I totally didn't consider that and how it would cause all the flow to move to one side of the partition! Thanks! I'll check it!

There will be meshes of various sized holes placed above and below all the partitions to ensure the shrimps stay where they are but its a juggling act of flowrate vs rate of choking. The aim is to have mainly underflow (50mm gap) compensated by some overflow (30mm gap) over each partition. This should skim any surface scum into the overflow?
Even flow may be impossible but I've included a mixing chamber before the overflow sump to try and keep water levels constant. Any thoughts on that?


The big butt return pump is an Eheim compact+ 5000. I have an Eheim 2078 & 2228 on standby but I have not decided on the direction to run them. If the flow rate of the big butt is very high, I may use the canisters to "bypass" the partitions (intake from inflow and output directly into overflow at the end) and reduce the flow through the shrimp partitions. Otherwise, I'll run it in reversed from the above, adding the canister's flowrate to the pump's...probably will see a tidal wave?
Chiller will be an Arctica DBE-200 1/4hp. Should be enough to run the setup at 24-25 degrees.

You bros are starting to worry me with all these talks of ninja shrimps able to scale glass partitions against the flow of a waterfall overflow!!

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## silane

> River current is possible with 3 incoming stream of water but how to zigzag when the bulkheads are inside a single-end partition and flowing from it??? Best one can achieve is even flow *only* to the 1st shrimp partition.


River current is not a good thing, too much of the current, causes shrimps to have fading color due to the stress they have to cope with. When I visit mountains for shrimps, I wont go at wet season when the creek flow is too high, shrimps are weak, shrimps are hidding and color are bad.

Navanod, what the species of shrimps are you keeping? This will be an interesting thread to watch and see how the tank being setup.

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## Navanod

> River current is not a good thing, too much of the current, causes shrimps to have fading color due to the stress they have to cope with. When I visit mountains for shrimps, I wont go at wet season when the creek flow is too high, shrimps are weak, shrimps are hidding and color are bad.
> 
> Navanod, what the species of shrimps are you keeping? This will be an interesting thread to watch and see how the tank being setup.


Thank you for the reminder, I'll keep that in mind. I have plans to place some form of rocks to buffer any strong currents or at least provide shelters within the partitions. I picked the Eheim compact + 5000 pump partly also because the flowrate can be reduced as much as 1/2 if required.
How can I estimate if the flow is too strong from your experience?

I plan to continue keeping CRS and Fire reds for now.

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## BFG

The choke usually caused by turbo snail climbing over the overflow into the pipes in a marine tank. These snail are quite large compared to those available in the freshwater species. The 3rd pipe is your emergency pipe and it's main function is to let you know your primary flow pipe is blocked. 

Why the need to have a return pump when you could utilise the canister filter?

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## Navanod

> The choke usually caused by turbo snail climbing over the overflow into the pipes in a marine tank. These snail are quite large compared to those available in the freshwater species. The 3rd pipe is your emergency pipe and it's main function is to let you know your primary flow pipe is blocked. 
> 
> Why the need to have a return pump when you could utilise the canister filter?


Haha yes, I've read of the horror stories of snails causing a flood for marine tanks although I didn't know they were called turbo snails! I know there's nothing big enough to do the same in my case, I thought it was no harm doing the full design since I'm already gonna drill holes. May have to use nerites to clean the glass in the future?

I'm not sure the canister pumps effectively against gravity from the sump to the top tank? The sump will be at floor level, meaning that the canisters will also be at the same level with it. Even in my current 2ft setup, with the 2078 pushing water through the chiller, flow is not strong enough to reach the other end of the tank. Also, Pro3e goes kind of crazy when used with a chiller...

A dedicated return pump would make servicing the chiller and the canisters much easier for me as well. Right now, I have to shut everything off to service either pieces of equipment. Are you concerned with the heat load of the pump? That pump uses 86w, quite a fair bit yes...

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## RonWill

> River current is not a good thing, too much of the current, causes shrimps to have fading color due to the stress they have to cope with


 Silane, I was responding to Xconnect that Navanod's design does not cater to river-like current nor do I advocate it since I've never been to any natural shrimp biotope.

Interesting point though, regarding current and stress. Must admit I presumed that shrimps might in fact gather near streamy areas where more food might come to pass and land.

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## BFG

> Haha yes, I've read of the horror stories of snails causing a flood for marine tanks although I didn't know they were called turbo snails! I know there's nothing big enough to do the same in my case, I thought it was no harm doing the full design since I'm already gonna drill holes. May have to use nerites to clean the glass in the future?
> 
> I'm not sure the canister pumps effectively against gravity from the sump to the top tank? The sump will be at floor level, meaning that the canisters will also be at the same level with it. Even in my current 2ft setup, with the 2078 pushing water through the chiller, flow is not strong enough to reach the other end of the tank. Also, Pro3e goes kind of crazy when used with a chiller...
> 
> A dedicated return pump would make servicing the chiller and the canisters much easier for me as well. Right now, I have to shut everything off to service either pieces of equipment. Are you concerned with the heat load of the pump? That pump uses 86w, quite a fair bit yes...


Yep, am concern on the heat load the pump produce. Might be negligible I hope but a secondary concern is with the high flowrate, 5000lt/hr, it might be too fast for the chiller for it to operate efficiently. What hp chiller will you purchase and whether will you modify it with an external temperature probe? Oh, another tip. Use a gate valve instead of a ball valve to control the water flow on your secondary flow pipe. Ball valve are a pita to control water flow while a gate valve is a good choice.

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## Navanod

> Yep, am concern on the heat load the pump produce. Might be negligible I hope but a secondary concern is with the high flowrate, 5000lt/hr, it might be too fast for the chiller for it to operate efficiently. What hp chiller will you purchase and whether will you modify it with an external temperature probe? Oh, another tip. Use a gate valve instead of a ball valve to control the water flow on your secondary flow pipe. Ball valve are a pita to control water flow while a gate valve is a good choice.


Thanks for the advice bro
From my experience, chillers need a minimal flowrate to operate properly (to avoid rapid kick-in kick-out cycles), which can be mitigated by using an external probe. I'm not aware of an upper limit as yet. In the event that 5000 is too much, the pump can be slowed to 2500l/hr, would that be ok?
Chiller will be an Arctica DBE-200 1/4hp and although I do have external temperature controllers, I've tested and am satisfied that the Arctica's internal sensors are almost as good as an external probe's, unlike horrible Resun's.

I did read up on valves and there were complains that ball valves are a pita for this design yes. The original user used true union ball valves, which are abit too costly for me. The hardware shop didn't have gate valves that can fit my PVC size so I decided to try the ball valves instead. Perhaps I should ask the shop to order in 2 gate valves for me instead as per your suggestion. I'll go ask them  :Smile: 

The valves are for the primary pipes, not for the secondary flow pipes. The purpose of the valve is to restrict flow on the primary pipe to the point where it cannot handle the entire flowrate from the return pump. This ensures that any slight variations will not introduce air into the pipe again, which will produce noise. The secondary pipe will then handle the small amount of excess flow, which should be so little that it would not be able to cause gurgling noises.

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## BFG

Well done! It looks like you are on top of things. Good luck! Keep the pics coming.

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## Navanod

It appears to be very difficult to acquire PVC gate valves...any bros with info on any shops? I know a big shop at Silat that seemed to be a plumbing specialty shop, but have to delay till Monday before I can check

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## Yany

wow... amazed at the amount of work and design that comes with this. Will be watching....  :Smile:

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## dnsfpl

try calling Thomas 68968951
shop is located at Toh Guan East
not sure if they operate over the weekend

cheers

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## Navanod

> try calling Thomas 68968951
> shop is located at Toh Guan East
> not sure if they operate over the weekend
> 
> cheers


Thanks for the contacts bro. Thomas is opened on saturdays but unfortunately, his gate valves are all brass, similar to my regular hardware shop. Those are way too heavy and require added of additional threaded fittings which would totally stress the glass.

There are definitely PVC gate valves according to google...

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## eviltrain

Rmember to go all plastic. Any metal parts pose a threat to shrimps.

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## RonWill

> There are definitely PVC gate valves according to google...


Wah... I so sua ku... didn't realize that gate valves are available in PVC. Who would have thought, when what is mostly available are made from brass!! Here's something I found, albeit not local, of a PVC gate valve

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...4447&catid=584

There's a plumbing specialty shop along Balestier Road (near Chan Huat Lightings) that I used to patronize. Perhaps you might want to try there... then have makan along that stretch of eateries.

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## Navanod

> Rmember to go all plastic. Any metal parts pose a threat to shrimps.


I was almost tempted to just go with the brass since I figured all our PUB pipes are brass anyway. But yea, better be safe than sorry...not fun to lose CRS...




> Wah... I so sua ku... didn't realize that gate valves are available in PVC. Who would have thought, when what is mostly available are made from brass!! Here's something I found, albeit not local, of a PVC gate valve
> 
> http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...4447&catid=584
> 
> There's a plumbing specialty shop along Balestier Road (near Chan Huat Lightings) that I used to patronize. Perhaps you might want to try there... then have makan along that stretch of eateries.


Ouch, thats an ugly valve! Hahaha!
I prefer greyish PVC? 

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...0&child=FT4055

Dang, I'm going to call up afew vendors who worked on projects for me before to check. Sounds like PVC gate valves are some kinda rarity in S'pore

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## eviltrain

Actually im dont believe in our tap water anymore. I have been water change with distilled water for the past 2-3 months liao. Hehehe.

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## RonWill

> http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...0&child=FT4055


 OUCH!! That's USD35 sans shipping... could buy lots of ball valves!!! Furthermore, please note that the inner diameter of these accessories may not be common standard to local suppliers.




> Actually im dont believe in our tap water anymore...


 erm... then wouldn't you be better off reconstituting RO'ed water instead? Ought to be cheaper in the long run.

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## eviltrain

Hehe. RO water dont really remove everything. I rather pull a box home once every month. Keke

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## IrcKnight

Nice setup bro

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## stormhawk

Nava, adding a screen or something at the top of the tanks might be crucial. While the adult shrimps may or may not scale the tops of the partitions against the flow of water, there is no telling where the puny shrimplets will drift to.

From memory, I found Temasek Shrimps in a pretty small stream with a sandy bottom and fast flowing water, in the central catchment area just after rainfall. They were easily seen even though the water was flowing at a pretty fast rate. The key here is to create some flow, not a turbulent one though. Placing some rocks will create eddies in the flow, so the shrimps will congregate in these areas with slightly slower moving water. Too much flow and these eddies will become nearly like whirlpools.

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## xconnect.

I also dont trust my house tap water because when i use aged shizhen treated water for my weekly water changes they will always be caulties and when i bath i accidentally tasted the tap water and noticed a strong metallic taste hence i suspect somewhere in the pipng system still got copper pipes or other metal contaminents hence i switched to 1.5litres of tesco distilled water from malaysia 12 1.5litres bottle 3 plus rm only i did not regret spending the money.because my shrimps are all ok ! :Smile:

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## RonWill

> The valves are for the primary pipes, not for the secondary flow pipes. The purpose of the valve is to restrict flow on the primary pipe to the point where it cannot handle the entire flowrate from the return pump


 I think you lost me. Shoot a video clip when the system is commissioned.

Also, if the flow rate for sump pump is too high, the PVC can be T'ed off (plus ball valve) to return exceeded water volume back into the sump. This will also ensure that the sump pump won't run 'dry'.

Your diagrams do not show plumbing schematics (to & from the sump) but the Arctica DBE-200's 1/4HP should be adequate. Still, it's easier to handle than my DA-1500B/DOJ-623F.

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## Navanod

> Nava, adding a screen or something at the top of the tanks might be crucial. While the adult shrimps may or may not scale the tops of the partitions against the flow of water, there is no telling where the puny shrimplets will drift to.
> 
> From memory, I found Temasek Shrimps in a pretty small stream with a sandy bottom and fast flowing water, in the central catchment area just after rainfall. They were easily seen even though the water was flowing at a pretty fast rate. The key here is to create some flow, not a turbulent one though. Placing some rocks will create eddies in the flow, so the shrimps will congregate in these areas with slightly slower moving water. Too much flow and these eddies will become nearly like whirlpools.


Indeed, I'll be meshing up both over and underflow areas with mesh that are smaller than 1mm. For the sake of easing the flow restrictions, I may use a larger hole mesh between the breeder / grower compartments, so the shrimplets can visit their parents until they reach a certain size. Hehe.
I'll also be using a very fine filter cloth at the bottom of the overflow pipes to catch anything that got through.

There're also plans to have moss covered rocks/pebbles as well as marimo lawns in the tanks to provide resting spots from the water flow. I'm prepared to throttle back on the return pump if the flow is too much, not trying to make a washing machine!




> I think you lost me. Shoot a video clip when the system is commissioned.
> 
> Also, if the flow rate for sump pump is too high, the PVC can be T'ed off (plus ball valve) to return exceeded water volume back into the sump. This will also ensure that the sump pump won't run 'dry'.
> 
> Your diagrams do not show plumbing schematics (to & from the sump) but the Arctica DBE-200's 1/4HP should be adequate. Still, it's easier to handle than my DA-1500B/DOJ-623F.


Might be quite a long wait for the video bro.

I'll do a quick and dirty drawing of the pipings and flow if I can find the time today.

You are using a 1.5hp Arctica?!?!?

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## avex30

Bypass design interesting to see if it is implement into the current work I think the bypass is a good one but it will make commissioning the system a little more challenging.

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## RonWill

Judging from earlier diagrams I've seen so far, I don't think 'quick and dirty' is in your vocab. As for the Artica, it's providing companionship to a RA-680 in the storeroom  :Grin:

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## Navanod

Argh! Progress is painfully slow...much of my sunday was spent cleaning out the tanks and washing all the PVC pipes and fittings.
Peeling the price tags off them proved to be the most time consuming.

Here's a tip, after peeling off the paper portion of those blasted price tags, if you still find that irritating sticky patch left on your items, simply drip some lighter fluid onto it and let sit for 5 secs. You should see the sticky bits turn into a jelly-like state. Wipe off in 1 direction before the lighter fluid dries, repeat if necessary.

Also did more shopping for silicon, hose, adaptors and meshes. Will take photos soon and post.

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## felix_fx2

Use a hair dryer on price tag before peeling. Hair dryer medium heat setting

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## Navanod

> Judging from earlier diagrams I've seen so far, I don't think 'quick and dirty' is in your vocab. As for the Artica, it's providing companionship to a RA-680 in the storeroom


Hahaha, here's the quick and dirty


What a shame to have an Arctica languish as such!

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## RonWill

> What a shame to have an Arctica languish as such!


 No shame, all things in good time. Your setup is at it's final leg of completion. Mine is on the drawing board.

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## Navanod

> No shame, all things in good time. Your setup is at it's final leg of completion. Mine is on the drawing board.


Ah, if there's a project on the board, that's a different matter altogether. My remark was not meant to offend in any ways.  :Smile: 
Any thoughts on the diagram?

If the 3 pipes works as advertised, this is what should happen



When the return pump starts, water will flow into the end compartment and the middle pipe (primary) and the right hand side pipe (secondary) would both attempt to handle the flow. However, as both are not functioning under full siphon (there's still air), the flow they can handle is not enough to prevent water levels from rising. Hence, the water rises to the 3rd pipe (upturned emergency) and drains from there.

At this point, the pressure/weight of the water forces air out of the primary pipe into the sump below (at 20th sec mark in the video, notice the toilet flush-like sound) and the primary pipe achieves full siphon and starts to purge water at full flow. Any remaining air will be trapped at the top of the T-joint because air is more compressible than water.

It is important that this full flow is still not sufficient to accommodate the flow from the return pump, otherwise air will be reintroduce into the primary pipe, breaking the siphon. That's why there must be a valve to restrict the flow of water down the primary pipe until there's an excess. The secondary pipe, because there's a tiny hole attached to an airhose, will never achieve full siphon under normal conditions. This will handle the excess flow that the primary pipe is not able to take. Because the flow is so little & the elbow is submerged underwater, any flow will hug the walls of the pipe and not gurgle or make noise.

Should the primary pipe get blocked, water levels will again rise. This time, the 3rd emergency pipe will again engages to try to handle the flow, but will fail. Because of the upturned elbow, the 3rd pipe cannot achieve full siphon and thus, will not be able to take over from the primary pipe. Water level will continue to climb until it covers the airhose connected to the secondary pipe.

At this moment, the secondary pipe will no longer be able to intake air from the airhose and hence achieve full siphon, effectively turning into the primary pipe. The 3rd emergency pipe will then take over the role of the secondary, and make noise in the process (because unlike the 2nd pipe, the elbow is not submerge and so the noise can escape) warning me about the choke.

What I also suspect is that this will cause the water level in the partition to keep going up and down, since the secondary pipe have no restrictions and should be able to handle all the flow on its own, resulting in the toilet flush effect every few minutes, and the 2nd pipe's siphon engaging and breaking as the airhose gets submerged and exposed repeatedly

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## avex30

> No shame, all things in good time. Your setup is at it's final leg of completion. Mine is on the drawing board.


When you want to showcase huh?? hahaha

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## RonWill

> Ah, if there's a project on the board, that's a different matter altogether. My remark was not meant to offend in any ways


 Offense? Don't worry. None taken but since my work schedules are pretty erratic, I'm unsure whether to proceed with multiple racks or let things sit a little longer on paper.

My thoughts? It's do-able, if not somewhat over-engineered for a non-marine tank. Personally, I would have gone for a simple water return manifold cum overflow bulkheads at every sealed-partition. Freshly-filtered water direct from the sump, each time, all the time.

With underflows, I have reservations regarding efficiency, MTBF and if you don't mind a little mingling amongst shrimplets from different partitions, then I suppose all is well. Also, if there is high flow between partitions, you might notice soil churning near the glass gaps.

Avex30, mine is a very simple setup. More function than form, not much to showcase.

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## avex30

> Offense? Don't worry. None taken but since my work schedules are pretty erratic, I'm unsure whether to proceed with multiple racks or let things sit a little longer on paper.
> 
> My thoughts? It's do-able, if not somewhat over-engineered for a non-marine tank. Personally, I would have gone for a simple water return manifold cum overflow bulkheads at every sealed-partition. Freshly-filtered water direct from the sump, each time, all the time.
> 
> With underflows, I have reservations regarding efficiency, MTBF and if you don't mind a little mingling amongst shrimplets from different partitions, then I suppose all is well. Also, if there is high flow between partitions, you might notice soil churning near the glass gaps.
> 
> Avex30, mine is a very simple setup. More function than form, not much to showcase.


You are so humble wahahahaha simple is also a setup mah can let us learn mah.

----------


## Navanod

Hey guys, sorry for the lack of updates. Finally got some pipings done but immediately got into some problems.

See, the thing about slotting the PVC into the fittings, is that they needed to be glued. Its VERY important to first tighten the male bulkhead-end to the tank glass before applying glue and joining to the Tee joint. Otherwise, if the Tee is glued and the bulkhead is not tighten, its too late to rotate the Tee to the correct orientation! Of course, once the Tee is slotted in, remove the entire assembly from the glass for tightening separately (instead of pushing against the glass!), taking care not to twist or rotate the tee.


I like that PVC glue comes with its own brush


The problem is, until I'm ready to glue, I couldn't test how deeply the PVC can be pushed into the fittings and can only rely on the "stopper" thread inside the fitting as an estimate. If I try to "dry fit" the PVC in and I jam it in all the way, I risk having it stuck and not being able to glue it. In the end, after gluing the first pipe, I realized that the PVC is protruding at least an inch longer than measured


The Tee joint only allows the PVC to go in half the distance from expected. The pipe is now sticking out from the stand by alot and I'm afraid I'll just walk into it and break something. It also threw my measurements into the sump off using a 45 degrees elbow. 


I tried another and same results...after testing by sawing shorter pipes, I finally got the sweet length to use where I can shave 5cm off the width of the rack. I admit that I was so preoccupied with making sure that I glued the Tee in the correct orientation to the male-side of the bulkhead that I didn't even notice the extra length till I knocked into it later and wondered why its protruding more than expected. Sianz...back to the hardware shop for a new Tee and male bulkhead...

----------


## Navanod

Now for the good news!

I'm hopeless when it comes to drilling and the design called for 2 of the end caps to be drilled and tapped for an airhose to be inserted.
I finally found a great way to cheat!


I found that the giant hose I got for another part of the DIY project can actually seal over the end cap and tee fitting, replacing the PVC pipe. Just punch a hole through and apply some aquarium safe silicon (not that its necessary...this part should never touch water) and viola! Problem solved.

Lastly, the fine stainless steel mesh finally found, thanks to a mystery bro! Hehehe. 2 other bros also benefited from this find.
3 big rolls


Very fine indeed, heh heh


I also got alot of plastic meshes that are harder and stiffer to act as backing if necessary...but will only play with them after the piping works are done. Stay tuned...

----------


## Navanod

A few random thoughts.

1. Should I silicon around the rubber O-rings on both sides of the bulkheads? It'll give greater security against leaks but it'll make replacing the O-rings difficult. I'm also a messy silicon workman and it'll mean extra work.

2. That giant hose was meant for the sump end of the pipings, where I may need to adjust how deep underwater they go in order to start the siphon in the right pipe. The shop person and I were initially looking for something that could slip over the 25mm PVC pipe but that was not available.
In a moment of inspirations, I asked him if he had anything that can slip over the fittings instead, which was much larger (almost 35mm).
Now that I had used the hose for the end cap portion, I'm starting to think that it might be easier to use the hose for the part that I screwed up (the male bulkhead and Tee).
Done nicely, it will allow me to totally close the gap between the 2 fittings and increase the internal diameter that water can flow through.
I wouldn't do it for any vertical portions that is load bearing, as it may (a big may, this thing is tight!) eventually slip off but for the horizontal parts, it's a tempting thought, especially when I have the hose clamps to make sure nothing leaks. The advantages, room for errors and work saved...hmmm

----------


## Navanod

> Offense? Don't worry. None taken but since my work schedules are pretty erratic, I'm unsure whether to proceed with multiple racks or let things sit a little longer on paper.
> 
> My thoughts? It's do-able, if not somewhat over-engineered for a non-marine tank. Personally, I would have gone for a simple water return manifold cum overflow bulkheads at every sealed-partition. Freshly-filtered water direct from the sump, each time, all the time.
> 
> With underflows, I have reservations regarding efficiency, MTBF and if you don't mind a little mingling amongst shrimplets from different partitions, then I suppose all is well. Also, if there is high flow between partitions, you might notice soil churning near the glass gaps.
> 
> Avex30, mine is a very simple setup. More function than form, not much to showcase.


Hehe, liked you said, quick and dirty is not for me...over-engineering is! Also, the simple return designs have no noise elimination, which is very important to me personally. I think its more suited for a larger planted tank but the fun comes from building it in this case.

I'm also concerned about MTBF and am brainstorming for how to "hot swap" out choked meshes, simultaneously replacing it with a spare clean piece. Done properly, I'm sure no shrimplets will be mingling, at least not those that matters.
Soil movement is also a concern that crossed my mind early, esp for the 1st partition, where water enters through cascading from the overflow. Some ideas:

1. Overlay the soil with lava chips
2. Place moss covered rocks as wavebreakers
3. Cover the soil with a moss carpet on mesh

The in-tank soil will be purely for aesthetics, to provide a contrast in color to the shrimps and something to cover the glass so as not to stress the shrimps. Soil height will be minimal, 1-2cm max.

I'm also looking at being able to "reset" a partition by sucking out all the soil from it easily, which is why I'm trying to keep it minimal.

----------


## karlyau

may i know where you bought the fine stainless steel mesh? been looking for it for some time

----------


## Navanod

I got the mesh from bro Jojoe. You can pm him to ask him if he still have more  :Smile:

----------


## karlyau

ok thank you so much for the info

----------


## venom

had been looking into this thread.
can't wait for the finish setup.
keep us updated.
Thanks.

----------


## Navanod

Finally done with the piping! Alot of minor cockups that I shall not bore everyone with, lets just say, check your purchases carefully at the shop and measure twice, cut once.  :Smile: 

Bottom tank to IKEA sump, hahaha. Its about 2ftx2.5ftx1.5ft, quite large.
 

Top tank overflow


Bottom tank inflow from top tank


Now for leak testing and deployment of the pump, Eheim 5000+


Oh ya! Ronwill, I checked


Damn leveled, have to give it to Fishy Business cause they did the stand. Thanks Roger

Stay tune for wet pic and construction of mesh filters

----------


## stormhawk

> I'm also looking at being able to "reset" a partition by sucking out all the soil from it easily, which is why I'm trying to keep it minimal.


Perhaps a removable tray for the soil would be good? That way you can move the soil out easily without much fuss. I had a small box with peat moss as the base along with a simple layer of quartz gravel on the top. Grew a Cryptocoryne in that box for quite some time. Good to see that the system is coming along fine. The drainage hoses are huge.  :Very Happy: 

Seeing the IKEA box brought a smile to my face. I almost bought one as a fry tub some time back.  :Laughing:

----------


## Navanod

> Perhaps a removable tray for the soil would be good? That way you can move the soil out easily without much fuss. I had a small box with peat moss as the base along with a simple layer of quartz gravel on the top. Grew a Cryptocoryne in that box for quite some time. Good to see that the system is coming along fine. The drainage hoses are huge. 
> 
> Seeing the IKEA box brought a smile to my face. I almost bought one as a fry tub some time back.


I'll probably have the bulk of the soil in the sump, hehe. The in tank soil will just be enough to hide the glass bottom so the shrimps don't get stressed.
Those hoses are HUGE indeed...had to use the saw I used for cutting the PVC pipe to cut it until I found a strong cutter!
IKEA no longer sells this type of storage box now...the one they have now is smaller and more cheapo...

----------


## Navanod

Some updates!!

The overflow system works!
A video speaks a thousand words, sorry bout the poor videography skills and sideways vid
http://youtu.be/ptv_GzFKDNg
Towards the end of the video, you'll hear another "click" as I turn off my room fan. Notice how quiet it is? Yeah~~!!!

One of the flowpipe is not airtight and I get some bubbling occasionally but its not loud enough to be worth going back to silicon everything...will play by ear first. Now to let it just run and clean itself, notice the filter bag in the sump? Its damn dirty...even after wiping the tank like mad, there's still so much dirt.
Will drain the entire thing and refill in a day or 2.

----------


## Navanod

Now to work on the partitions!
After trying countless prototypes...


The triangle shape suggested by a bro was best...credits to my wife for making refinement to the design by inverting the triangle


Front view, looks like tennis court Hhahahaha


It then took an afternoon to refine it to the point where the sides are sealed and nothing can sneak through...tried the airhose method but its not able to cover the gaps caused by irregular silicon at the corners. In the end, sponge was used.


But this is just UGLY as hell!! almost wanted to just silicon everything but I needed it to be modular...

----------


## Navanod

Then a breakthrough came! Zipties was used & it worked! Quickly covered the mesh skeleton with the actual fine mesh meant to only block adult shrimps (not shrimplets) and tried a new method of securing the sponge so it doesn't move when compressed. Voila!




Riding on the success, I tried to do the same for the SS fine mesh that will block even shrimplets. And realized that the same method of zip ties cannot work! I can't fit zip tied through such fine mesh! But in the end, a secret method was found, hehehe


Almost done on this side, just need another adult shrimp partition inbetween the 2 SS mesh ones


Found a problem...one of the glass partition panel was set too high and cut off the overflow, and killing my plans for surface skimming. I then remembered the famous air hose! Slip it over the end overflow and it raised the overall water level of the tank slightly, allowing water to overflow that high partition

Thanks again ET bro, for the airhose idea. Hahahaha!

Now to do up the overflow partition meshes...

----------


## Navanod

Fixed the sideway video, now its right side up, hahaha



The background noise was my room fan...
Towards the end of the video, you'll hear another "click" as I turn off my room fan. Notice how quiet it is? Yeah~~!!!

----------


## alvinchan80

'pretty pretty no run water' already bro... Haha...
Soon your shrimps will flood the tanks...

----------


## sqwerc

Great Work!

----------


## Navanod

> 'pretty pretty no run water' already bro... Haha...
> Soon your shrimps will flood the tanks...


But tank cannot flood the room first! Haha! Top tier fully booked liao. Haha, now thinking what to put on bottom tier

----------


## xconnect.

What u thinking of putting? :Smile:

----------


## Navanod

> What u thinking of putting?


Already have CRS, fire red and maybe BKK?

----------


## Navanod

Darn, there seemed to be an LFS-wide shortage of black soft fine sponge!


Only can get the coarse type of sponge...


gonna try using black wool but I doubt it'll work.
Already checked C328, Polyart and some of those wet market LFS in Tiong bahru...anyone know where to find?

----------


## Navanod

Sorry for the lack of updates!

The rack had been running in over the last 2 weeks and nothing really exciting happened. Will share some pictures later

I just installed the chiller onto the new rack last night and it took 2.5 hours to cool it from 26.2 to 25.2 degrees. However, the strange thing was, after the chiller stopped, temperature continued to fall slowly over the next 1 hour, all the way to 24.7 degrees. Most likely, the water volume and the partitions in the tanks causes water to mix very slowly, which was why even an arctica chiller cannot sense the correct temperature quickly enough.

Best part? It took all night (6+ hours!) for the temperature to climb back to 25.2! The chiller will only kick in again at 25.7 (0.5 degrees above set point), so looks like it'll actually swing between 24.7 and 25.7 although I've set it to cut off at 25.2 (don't know why i set at this odd number, I just got tired of waiting when it was stuck at 25.2 after more than 2 hours).

----------


## eviltrain

hehe, ever consider modding external probe for your chiller? and place it in the last compartment?

----------


## Navanod

> hehe, ever consider modding external probe for your chiller? and place it in the last compartment?


I actually have temperature controller on standby (because I am planning to also chain a fan to also kick in to vent the hot air out into the living room when the chiller kicks in).
The arctica's sensor worked so accurately on my 2ft that I didn't think it was necessary to install the controller...looks like I'm wrong...haha

----------


## cheetf

> Sorry for the lack of updates!
> 
> The rack had been running in over the last 2 weeks and nothing really exciting happened. Will share some pictures later
> 
> I just installed the chiller onto the new rack last night and it took 2.5 hours to cool it from 26.2 to 25.2 degrees. However, the strange thing was, after the chiller stopped, temperature continued to fall slowly over the next 1 hour, all the way to 24.7 degrees. Most likely, the water volume and the partitions in the tanks causes water to mix very slowly, which was why even an arctica chiller cannot sense the correct temperature quickly enough.
> 
> Best part? It took all night (6+ hours!) for the temperature to climb back to 25.2! The chiller will only kick in again at 25.7 (0.5 degrees above set point), so looks like it'll actually swing between 24.7 and 25.7 although I've set it to cut off at 25.2 (don't know why i set at this odd number, I just got tired of waiting when it was stuck at 25.2 after more than 2 hours).


What was the ambient temperature at that time?

----------


## cheetf

Double post sorry

----------


## Navanod

I didn't note the ambient last night. It was rather warm but turned very chilly halfway through the night, which may explain why the tank didn't warm up much at all

----------


## cheetf

Yah, now might not be the best time to test tank temperatures of around 25-26C.

----------


## cheetf

Bro, how's the progress?

----------


## Navanod

Messy bro. Not even worth taking photos to post.
Just finished migrating everything over but realized that the flow rate is not enough even with the powerhead at full power.
Adding 2 canisters to the setup now.
The partitions are also somehow still letting shrimplets sneak through. I think I'll have to make some really quality partitions before they all end up in the sump.

----------


## cheetf

Shrimplets are like little Houdinis hahaha. You need something that can stop an egg. Because if a stray egg gets through, there is still a possibility of it hatching. Problem with that is that it will clog easily.

----------


## Navanod

> Shrimplets are like little Houdinis hahaha. You need something that can stop an egg. Because if a stray egg gets through, there is still a possibility of it hatching. Problem with that is that it will clog easily.


Haha, bro, lets worry about the shrimplets first. I'll tell you whats Houdinis. Yamato shrimps. The fella had been "touring" my entire tank from partition to partitions.
I think the fella is simply climbing over the partitions since they can move pretty well outside of water.

Ok, I promise to take some picture by this week. Had been neglecting to update this thread

----------


## cheetf

Yah yamatos can climb everywhere. Do take note that it could be a sign that they do not like the water conditions.

----------


## Neondagger

Bro sorry to hear that. I think the most terrible thing about a nice rack. is dat after set up, got loopholes. Hope you find a way to stop it. I found some plastic mesh in a DIY shop at marina square but forgot to take photo. If i pass by there will take a look again.

----------


## stormhawk

There must be a hole or gap somewhere in your partitions, that is allowing the shrimplets to move freely from one partition to the next. The only way you can fix it is by removing the mesh pieces altogether, and using a firm fine/coarse sponge, cut nicely and fits snugly in the bottom section. Use the SS mesh for the upper section to cover the overflow from partition to partition. To prevent climbers you can create a short piece over the edge of the tanks, placed width-wise. Basically from the front the top section will look like a T. I made a crappy MS Paint image to illustrate what I mean:



The green diagonal marks refers to the glass divider pieces that have been siliconed in spot. The triangular T-piece is a cheap tank divider support. You just lay the mesh over the T pieces on both ends of the glass divider piece and voila, instant climber block. The grey section is your SS mesh at the top to allow water to flow past.

The sponges when fitted in place of the SS mesh, will act as a biological filter as well.

----------


## Navanod

Yes. I believe theres no avoiding silicon now. Need to seriously plug the loopholes before more shrimps migrate to the sump

----------


## stormhawk

There's another method that betta keepers in the US and elsewhere use. It might be worthwhile for you. I tried it before and it works. Basically silicone 2 small plastic binder edges at either side of the glass that needs to be partitioned, then fit in a piece of plastic canvas or in your case, SS mesh. So you don't have to fiddle with sponges at the sides, which will move over time unless held in place.

----------


## stormhawk

On the bottom piece:



You need to cut a groove on the sponge piece (red) so that it fits the bottom end of the glass better. Give some allowance for warping. The brown gunk on either side of the sponge, is your soil or gravel.

----------


## Navanod

Thank you so much for all the advice. Alot of effort!
Thing is, need to also have sponge on the other 3 sides. It needs to be a "window frame" of sponge with the mesh in the middle. I suspect they're squeezing through the sides, where the uneven silicon of the partition glass causes small gaps in the sponge

----------


## bai

Maybe the shrimplets swim through from the side gap....Hope to see your updates soon. :Smile:

----------


## Navanod

> Maybe the shrimplets swim through from the side gap....Hope to see your updates soon.


Or squeeze through the tiny gap between the top of the mesh and the glass. I think that side needs to be sealed with sponge too

----------


## stormhawk

I think the window frame layout might be unfeasible Nav. You can probably use a very hard type of sponge with a slit cut in to fit in the mesh. Basically the sponge forms a rectangular frame and the mesh enters the sponge via the slit. Best to cut this from the bottom and end somewhere just below the groove at the top, or else the groove part can split apart. I find it easier just to use one whole sponge and skip the SS mesh altogether. That way, no chance of escape for the shrimplets via the bottom. Besides, if it clogs up just take out and rinse if your setup is soil-less.

----------


## Navanod

The 100% sponge method will choke very quickly. A few bros actually pm'ed me to warn me. Hahaha

----------


## stormhawk

In that case, you'd have to modify the whole sponge method with the slit for the SS mesh as I mentioned. If the mesh is kept flat it should work perfectly.

----------


## Navanod

I bring good news

Found this very dense sponge that was thrown away, used to cover dry ice at my workplace.



Some cutting and silicon later


Hotswap change!


Voilà!!


Many thanks to Eviltrain and Stormhawk for their advice an inputs! :Grin:

----------


## stormhawk

I hope this version works. If it doesn't, just go with a solid piece of sponge with the middle cut out to accommodate the mesh.  :Wink:

----------


## Neondagger

Actually why you put the hole for?

----------


## avex30

> Actually why you put the hole for?


Free read from the start and you will know his concept hahaha

----------


## hyun007

> Actually why you put the hole for?


It is partition for water to flow through.

----------


## stormhawk

Without the mesh the sponge will clog up soon enough. It is for practical purposes that he chose to add the mesh.

----------


## Neondagger

Hey navanod,
Have you tried mosquito net? I bought the Net I was trying to tell you.

----------


## Neondagger



----------


## Navanod

I had looked at mosquito nets and was not convinced it's fine enough to stop shrimplets and also found a few problems. I would've preferred plastic meshes too, easy to cut and work with. But I found that the plastic meshes tends to stretch and tear easily during installation making even bigger holes so may not be as durable.

It's also too soft, requiring a support mesh backing in order to work for my tank. You may be able to get it to work on yours if you customize the partitions with softer mesh in mind.

That's a very big mesh you bought bro!! I saw that at Homefix selling for $17?
You may want to test it first by trying to hold a very young shrimplet with it? I'm always paranoid that my mesh is still letting shrimplets through. Hahahaha

----------


## cheetf

Plastic mesh not fine enough for the houdinis.

----------


## Neondagger

> Plastic mesh not fine enough for the houdinis.


You mean the shrimplets?

----------


## stormhawk

There's a type of mesh sold for needlework that are usually called perforated plastic mesh or canvas that can be applied as a divider to prevent shrimplets from escaping.

That insect screening mesh is only good for one thing - making a moss wall. It's too flimsy and not very good as a divider.

----------


## Neondagger

I using it as mesh for my filter input lo. Damn funny, I use like 5cm or something and buy like 4ftx5ft of this mesh lol

----------


## stormhawk

Can keep for other things too.  :Wink: 

Good as a project base for a moss wall or making a moss carpet.

Edit: Forgot to add this - can use as a loose tank cover as well.

----------


## RonWill

> There's a type of mesh sold for needlework that are usually called perforated plastic mesh...


 Not all canvas are made alike and some will deteriorate quickly with prolonged immersion in water. Spaces between grids are a tad too wide for Navanod's purpose anyway.

----------


## stormhawk

There is one with a puny hole size in between the spaces, which should prevent the shrimplets from passing through, made of nylon I believe. I found those at Spotlight at Plaza Singapura, but the cost is err....

Cheaper ones at Artfriend but the grid size is not that fine. See the image link below for an idea:

http://0.tqn.com/d/crossstitch/1/0/z/A/-/-/pcanvas.jpg

The one I am referring to is second from the left with the smaller hole size. The first from the left is what I found at Artfriend, which makes for a great DIY divider for adult shrimps/fish. There are 3 grid sizes, at least from those at Spotlight. A simple fix to the large grid size is to wrap the whole piece of canvas with the fine netting that comes with filter bags, like those at C328, and then slot them in place in the binder spines, based on this DIY tank divider idea here:

http://bettatude.com/Dividers/divider.html

Of course for Navanod's case, this DIY divider is not workable due to the limited space at the bottom of each glass divider panel that is permanently siliconed in place, but great for those who are planning their own racks etc.

In this same link is the jumper/climber blocking piece that I was referring to earlier in the thread, as shown in the 4th picture from the top.

----------


## Navanod

> There's a type of mesh sold for needlework that are usually called perforated plastic mesh or canvas that can be applied as a divider to prevent shrimplets from escaping.
> 
> That insect screening mesh is only good for one thing - making a moss wall. It's too flimsy and not very good as a divider.


Saw that at Spotlight too (I used to work there in my teens!) but the price is insane. And the hole to plastic ratio is too low, which why it's so stiff but also quite restrict to waterflow. 




> Not all canvas are made alike and some will deteriorate quickly with prolonged immersion in water. Spaces between grids are a tad too wide for Navanod's purpose anyway.


I did find some very very find woven netting bags at Daiso, mostly for laundry purposes. Those seemed to be very fine and yet, not so fine as to choke all the time. However, I wasn't sure if the threads will start to run once we cut it up so in the end, the bag ended up as my sump's "soil bag" hahaha!

Daiso also have very fine "tea bag" material bags for drain holes and floor traps. Excellent for putting at the end of overflow pipes to catch any strays but have to change weekly. Dirt cheap, so changing is not an issue.

Lastly, can alway steal our wives/galfriends stockings. Then cut and stretch it to make the hole bigger (even so it's still very fine). Chokes quite fast though, as it "clings" to everything and traps more dirt compared to a metal mesh of similar hole size.

----------


## stormhawk

I was at Artfriend at Ngee Ann City earlier today, and found pieces of Mesh size 7 from this brand called Darice. Each piece was selling at $1.20 each I believe. However, to use as dividers in a 2ft tank, you would have to use 2 per divider. They are fine for smaller tanks though. The grid size is perfect for larger shrimps but will not prevent the houdinis from running around.

Somehow, I feel that if we want to use these plastic canvas, we'd have to order it ourselves from eBay etc, because the sizes available are limited.

----------


## Navanod

This?

----------


## Neondagger

Soon ada will make a shrimp friendly divider and charge it for $100 per piece lol. If this can't be found still.

----------


## RonWill

Alternatively, I can make one for $95 to fund my fish-buying addiction!!  :Grin: 

Guys, don't get too hung up on plastic meshes, which I feel is just a temporary solution. Opt for SS mesh instead and be more diligent in maintenance to prevent slot clogs.

----------


## Neondagger

I actually use it before. But fine wiremesh hard to find.

----------


## RonWill

Neon, how hard to find depends on how hard you searched. That said, you might want to check with GC uncle... he always have something up his sleeves  :Grin: 

Navanod, it might be a little late to share this but I've given too much thoughts to tank partitions and all too unwilling to attempt what I've done previously; over-flows, under-flows and big round holes.

The following is deceptively simple; an entire empty slot spanning width of tank. Advantages: Large flow-through area, flat surface and easier implementation of material of choice (be it plastic or SS mesh), reduced stress on partitions from hole-cuts and no churning of substrate material when a partition is filled/drained. This I'll be using in my next tank racks.


The logic isn't hard to see but shoot me an opinion anyway.

----------


## Navanod

> Neon, how hard to find depends on how hard you searched. That said, you might want to check with GC uncle... he always have something up his sleeves 
> 
> Navanod, it might be a little late to share this but I've given too much thoughts to tank partitions and all too unwilling to attempt what I've done previously; over-flows, under-flows and big round holes.
> 
> The following is deceptively simple; an entire empty slot spanning width of tank. Advantages: Large flow-through area, flat surface and easier implementation of material of choice (be it plastic or SS mesh), reduced stress on partitions from hole-cuts and no churning of substrate material when a partition is filled/drained. This I'll be using in my next tank racks.
> 
> The logic isn't hard to see but shoot me an opinion anyway.


Apologies, I'm having problem orientating. Is yours similar to mine with the exception that the underflow part is not at the bottom of the partition?
Where are the holes?

----------


## RonWill

That was a front view. Partitions just like yours. No holes but an entire open slot (no red zone). Imagine a 2-part separate partition.

Of course, I've left out other plumbing details and stuffs  :Grin:

----------


## Navanod

Hmmm...that's even more work for the tank maker. Hahaha!
Aside from trying to keep all the partitions at a uniform height and distance, now have to match the 2 halves! 
I can see why your design would be superior in terms of flow but without the details, I cannot see how it would be easier to erect a houdini proof partition.

----------


## RonWill

For the little Houdinis, use an acrylic frame to secure the fine mesh and you can opt to slip that into a rail or permanently silicon over the partition slot at all edges. Vacuum the mesh during water change (or back to your sump's first partition) to clear clogs, etc.

Wished I could be less vague but my plans are still on the drawing board and although it might be an inconvenience to the tank makers, I'm doing it once. Might as well get it done right for tiny fry (yeah, I know... yours are shrimplets).

----------


## stormhawk

Ron need more work with MS Paint..  :Laughing:  but that is another interesting idea to adapt. I will wait until Uncle Ron here makes his new rack...  :Grin: 

Nava, that is the mesh I am referring to. There are several companies, primarily in the US, that produce these for people who are into needlework and embroidery. I saw a flimsy version at this famous needlecraft store in Chinatown but they did not have the grid size I was looking for, nor the stiffness that I required for my project. The DIY binder idea with the plastic canvas/SS mesh could have been applied to your tanks if the glass divider pieces were not permanently in place, however the current sponge + SS mesh cut-out should suffice for now. If you don't find any shrimplets escaping then the current idea works just fine.

----------


## Navanod

Some quick picture updates!

I found a use for the incoming water partition that overflows into the 1st shrimp partition! For tumbling mosses into balls!
Fissiden balls!  :Razz: 


Sorry for the mess, work still in progress. There are 2 incoming water sources. One is the outlet from the sump>chiller>top tier tank. The other is from a Pro3e 2078 canister that's intaking water at the other end of the top tier tank, effectively increasing the water flow rate throughout the partitions as well as clean the water up somemore.


The bulk of the red army made the migration over to the new tank. Space for moving around got slightly smaller, but their water volume is increased 5 folds from their old home. I really need to re-tie all that loose moss...

----------


## Navanod

On the other side, I have a different colored soil for the BKK & pandas. Not doing too well though...they don't seemed to eat much and I had lost a few already...


And here I had the "Blue" partition, Blue bolts and Aura blues. Just separated them after finding out that they can cross breed but not before 1 of each type got berried! Maybe I'll see Aura Bolts or Blue Auras or Blue Blue?

----------


## soonhong

Great collection of shrimps ...thanks for sharing...

----------


## Neondagger

All the shrimps living the same parameter?

----------


## RonWill

dude, it's a recirculating system... so what do you think?

----------


## Neondagger

> dude, it's a recirculating system... so what do you think?


That's what I thought. Lol double confirm better.

----------


## Ecalyte

Close up shots of your fire reds lee!

----------


## huizhong

Wow the fire reds are so red! Where did u get them? Can pm me? Hehe. Nice updates. Can see good progress!

----------


## stormhawk

Looking good Nava. How is the new houdini block working?

----------


## Navanod

> All the shrimps living the same parameter?


Yup. Not ideal but I think it's pretty stable now.




> Close up shots of your fire reds lee!


Who's Lee? Hehe. They're not as crazy red up close but I do have a few painted in there. Going to really selective breed the painteds as well as try to create a Pink Fire variant.





> Wow the fire reds are so red! Where did u get them? Can pm me? Hehe. Nice updates. Can see good progress!


Thanks bro! Like I said above, it's probably the camera that made them so red looking. Most are normal fire red and a few painted. 
I see no reasons to pm, they are from GC's one and only batch of painted reds 2 years ago. 





> Looking good Nava. How is the new houdini block working?


Thanks again, couldn't have done it without your help. So far so good, only found 1 Houdini on the other side and I suspect the fella was one of those that got through before the new mesh was installed.
Had made 2 more and hot swap them in.

Much faster & easier to make, uses much less of that precious mesh and very forgiving of minor inaccuracy when installing as the foam gave a large margin for errors. Can really do very quick hot swaps. Will make future change outs much easier

----------


## gryphon

> Alternatively, I can make one for $95 to fund my fish-buying addiction!! 
> 
> Guys, don't get too hung up on plastic meshes, which I feel is just a temporary solution. Opt for SS mesh instead and be more diligent in maintenance to prevent slot clogs.


I can't find SS mesh that has holes small enough to prevent shrimplets from passing through. 
I need a big piece 30cm by 30cm. Any idea where I can get them? Hopefully they are of good marine grade type of SS

----------


## gryphon

Love your army of fire red  :Well done: 
I have been trying to make US fissiden balls as I don't like the morimo moss balls in my tank but they always break up after awhile  :Crying:  
Do you plan to let go of any of your US fissiden balls?

----------


## Jovel

Bro. Got another idea for your incoming water flow partition, K1 media  :Wink:  if it can tumble mosses into balls, it can probably circulate those media well. And full tank shot please!

----------


## Fiona

Impressive!!!! BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG project you have got!! Jia You!!!  :Smile:

----------


## Navanod

> I can't find SS mesh that has holes small enough to prevent shrimplets from passing through. 
> I need a big piece 30cm by 30cm. Any idea where I can get them? Hopefully they are of good marine grade type of SS


Still searching bro? Try Kelantan lane areas? Alot of hardware shops there...I got mine off Jojoe.
Yes, you must get the marine grade or it'll rust like crazy!




> Love your army of fire red 
> I have been trying to make US fissiden balls as I don't like the morimo moss balls in my tank but they always break up after awhile  
> Do you plan to let go of any of your US fissiden balls?


Thank you, I really like fire reds although they're always considered cheapo beginner shrimps.

Fissiden will never form solid balls and cannot get too big because their bases tend to die off after awhile and the ball will break up but its fun to see them roll around like the tumbleweeds in old western movies. Erm, I have quite a number of them in the tank now, quite messy. Probably will tie some to rocks and sell the excess off. Did you see that giant mass of unknown java moss looking thing in my fire red partition?




> Bro. Got another idea for your incoming water flow partition, K1 media  if it can tumble mosses into balls, it can probably circulate those media well. And full tank shot please!


The thought of using K1 did cross my mind but that partition will need to be cleaned quite often so I don't wanna clutter yet. I think I should have more than enough biofiltration once the 2nd canister filter is installed on the bottom tier.

I'll take a full tankshot once I can. Currently, the old 2ft is preventing me from backing up enough to shoot the full tank!

----------


## Navanod

> Impressive!!!! BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG project you have got!! Jia You!!!


Thank you!! Its not as big as some of the bros here with SHRIMP ROOMS, but hell its was a complicated project for me because I was experimenting with an overflow system that was used mostly on marine tanks...and making it a double overflow 2 tiers at the same time (I think its a first ever attempt too).

Made many silly mistakes. Mainly with the choice and design of the partitioning mesh. I also underestimated the resistance of the chiller and the height and how much flow that'll kill from the powerhead.
I was also experimenting if I can get my fire red shrimplets to "wean" themselves from the breeders by letting them swim across to the neighbouring partition but not going too well. Haha! I'm lazy to catch so many of them!

Just spotted another silly mistake. The bottom tier cannot have normal light stands because one side of the tank is blocked by the big *** pipes from the top tier, will probably have to DIY a stand and switch to LED tubes by copying Eviltrain's idea.

----------


## gryphon

GC don't sell the SS mesh. Guess I really gotto walk around Kelantan lane.
Yes saw the huge ball in your fire red tank  :Shocked:

----------


## stormhawk

> Thanks again, couldn't have done it without your help. So far so good, only found 1 Houdini on the other side and I suspect the fella was one of those that got through before the new mesh was installed.
> Had made 2 more and hot swap them in.
> 
> Much faster & easier to make, uses much less of that precious mesh and very forgiving of minor inaccuracy when installing as the foam gave a large margin for errors. Can really do very quick hot swaps. Will make future change outs much easier


Good to trash out ideas beforehand, because if it works for you it'll work for others too.  :Grin: 

Anyway, it might be good to make a few more pieces as spares, so when you need to do maintenance on one just do a quick swap with the spare pieces.

----------


## Navanod

Ugh! My only updates on this project is that due to my carelessness, the hose directly coming out of the powerhead popped off earlier this week. I had removed the sponge inside the powerhead for cleaning and must've twisted the hose loose the night before.
The resulting fountain went directly for my electrical plugs which were placed "higher" to avoid getting wet in a flood. So much for that bright idea.

Besides flooding the room and half the hall, the water also shorted the multi-extensions plug, the light timer and the AC adaptor for the Eheim 2078 canister. That last item had me panicking as all the biofilters are in there and I cannot afford to lose it. Luckily, Petmart went out of the way to get me a replacement immediately and saved the day.
I was lucky nothing else got fried, especially the chiller and pH meter. Arctica and Pinpoint is really value for money!

I was also lucky not to have lost any shrimps. The design of the rack was also such that it is impossible to empty the partitions where the shrimps are kept because it is safely between 2 overflows so it is not possible to reverse siphon water into the sump. The powerhead was also elevated in the sump so once water level falls by about 5 inches (about 40L), the pump can no longer get water and the fountain stopped so my mum could rush in to switch it off (I was at work).

Sheesh...now its metal clamps and many many zipties on all the hoses.

Next project: To switch out the 2xT8 4ft light set and replaced with 4 tubes of 3ft LEDs with DIY light stand made from PVC pipes...heh heh heh

----------


## Navanod

Some happier updates  :Smile: 

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...pe-light-stand

----------


## gryphon

> Some happier updates 
> 
> http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...pe-light-stand


Nicely done. Good idea with the PVC pipes.

Anyway I managed to get the SS mesh at Kelantan Lane. Bought the 316 SS (marine grade) but the hole size is very fine, so it will require some maintainence to prevent it from clogging.

----------


## Navanod

Oh? I might wanna get finer one too cause many shrimplets went missing. Just likely died but just to be safe, I wanna put one before the sump.

----------


## ralliart12

> ...Just spotted another silly mistake. The bottom tier cannot have normal light stands because one side of the tank is blocked by the big *** pipes from the top tier, will probably have to DIY a stand and switch to LED tubes by copying Eviltrain's idea.


Possible to hang/suspend the light stand from the base of the top-tier's bottom?

----------


## Navanod

> Possible to hang/suspend the light stand from the base of the top-tier's bottom?


It is possible, but I did not tie any wires/lines before putting the top tier on so it'll be tricky now. However, the LED tubes are rather light weight, maybe I can get away with tying it to the 4 sides?

----------


## ralliart12

> ...However, the LED tubes are rather light weight, maybe I can get away with tying it to the 4 sides?


Woah, then may I retract my suggestion, i.e. any time someone has to use the word, "get away with...", the action probably carries a risk factor to it. Try something (else) more definite then, you wouldn't want the LED tube to fall even halfway into the tank's water (since your entire tank's water (column) is connected, any electric current would traverse it completely.

----------


## RonWill

> It is possible, but I did not tie any wires/lines before putting the top tier on so it'll be tricky now


 If you have a sheet of styrofoam (between the top tier tank and frame) you can easily wriggle a stiff cable tie (between foam & frame) to hang lights. No need to press panic button yet.

If you are paranoid, use good quality ties that has metal strip reinforcement  :Grin:

----------


## Navanod

Thanks bros. Will not take risks (had a fountain the last time I tried to "get away" with something!!) but I'll take Ronwill's idea up and do some wriggling with a cable tie. If SMRT can do it, so can I!!

----------


## avex30

> If you are paranoid, use good quality ties that has metal strip reinforcement


Wah very expensive suggestion hahaha

----------


## felix_fx2

Can use good bonding glue to fix a hook (those high strength) to hang the tube.

----------


## eviltrain

If your are good in handy craft, those 2mm stainless steel wire is good and rigid enough. 

Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)

----------


## cheetf

Just a word or caution. Make sure you insulate the steel wires, otherwise you might just electrify the whole stand.

----------


## eviltrain

> Just a word or caution. Make sure you insulate the steel wires, otherwise you might just electrify the whole stand.


Haha. I miss that out. Oh ya, you can insulate the stainless steel wire using those air tube or black heat shrinks. 

Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)

----------


## Navanod

I think I'll stick to zip ties and PVC pipes. I had enough disaster with this tank already!
I wonder how the shrimps are doing...in Hong Kong for almost a week now and abit worried

----------


## RonWill

> Make sure you insulate the steel wires, otherwise you might just electrify the whole stand.


 Well... with good cable ties, there's no need for Navanod to bother with insulation anyway  :Grin:

----------


## cheetf

> Well... with good cable ties, there's no need for Navanod to bother with insulation anyway


Or he could just avoid touching the stand at all costs!  :Razz:

----------


## Wjustin

It seems that yr moss is very clean haha . wheere did you get them from ?

----------


## Navanod

> It seems that yr moss is very clean haha . wheere did you get them from ?


They are from my old scape tank. Had been growing for about 2 years. Yes they are pretty clean aside from seed shrimps and maybe some hidden algae.

----------


## weiquan

oh no im a little too late. what a fabulous thread this is.
the next time if u ever embark in such a big project again.
i could help you out on the pvc pipes and fittings.
my family runs a hardware sanitary business.

----------


## Navanod

I'm feeling bad that I had not been about to update this thread with all the itchyhanded things I had done to it.

The LED lights still needs fixing and after looking at the sag, I realize that it's partly caused by the stands tilting forward at both ends, so the proposed solution by the bros to improve safety should also solve the sagging issue.

Also, I'm somewhat disappointed that mid-level water movement is very poor and there's almost no skimming being done at the surface.
The mesh partitions had proven to be very choke resistant so I'm experimenting with the idea of using a full sponge for bottom partitions every alternate partition, to force water to move in a W pattern through the tanks.

Lastly, I had partial success with a pet idea of "auto-separating" shrimplets from their parents. I had used partitions with large holes for certain parts and found that shrimplets generally like to swim "upstream". My guess is that the smell of food from upstream attracted them to swim against the waterflow. The "downstream" direction was not as popular.

However, the large holed partitions also allowed them to come back or worse, get trapped/hide inside. I had been thinking hard about how to make this a "one way trip" for them and was trying to think of a modified "reversed bottle" trap. It was too large and complicated to include.
As luck would have it, a saw this seed shrimp trap in Hong Kong. It was basically a plastic bottle with more than 20 plastic disposable lab pipette tips stabbed into it.
The tips are cone shaped and ends at a very fine opening, perfect for funneling shrimplets! And there's plenty of expired tips at the lab I'm working in.
If I stab them through the full sponge partitions, this should make a very nice shrimplet trap/separator that'll auto separate them from the breeders.

----------


## stormhawk

The shrimplet "sizer" thing sounds cool. You might want to experiment in a spare tank to see if it works.

Because the flow is going basically via the bottom end where the mesh is, you'd have little flow at the top. I think the simple solution is to place airstones in every compartment, so that there is some circulation in the upper sections, instead of going with alternating sponges.

----------


## Navanod

Thanks Storm, yea its pretty cool. Even with the lousy big holed mesh, a few bro who saw it was quite amused that the shrimplets were moving to another compartment on their own.

It's actually quite a pain to have to separate Fire reds. The male shrimplets are always sexually active at a small size and trying to mate, competing with the alpha male. Coupled with their rate of reproduction, it gets really time consuming after sometime.

Airstones would solve the problem but the noise and splashes would make the rack really noisy and also increase evaporation. I'll say it's a last resort.

----------


## RonWill

> ...a few bro who saw it was quite amused that the shrimplets were moving to another compartment on their own


 Pictures pictures~!!!!  :Grin:

----------


## stormhawk

The only noise you'd have to bear with is from the air pump. I use a Eheim 3704 and it's pretty silent. The model is called 400 I think, at LFS since they changed the packaging some time ago. So one pump per tank is pretty sufficient. You can probably run 3 tanks at once with a single 3704 with little noise, though you'd have to get several of the "air stones" aka diffusers separately. One box comes with 2 diffusers. Oddly, the price difference between the 3702 and 3704 is really small. I think I paid $55 for my 3704 at C328 when the 3702 is like $45 or 50.

----------


## Navanod

> oh no im a little too late. what a fabulous thread this is.
> the next time if u ever embark in such a big project again.
> i could help you out on the pvc pipes and fittings.
> my family runs a hardware sanitary business.


Hey! Thanks for the offer bro. Yea, the PVC stuff took me awhile to locate and they still gave me the wrong pieces, resulting in 2 extra trips to do exchange. Luckily GC is just next door to the hardware place, so they weren't entirely wasted trips.
It was a real learning experience and I found that PVC can be used for so many things!

----------


## Navanod

> The only noise you'd have to bear with is from the air pump. I use a Eheim 3704 and it's pretty silent. The model is called 400 I think, at LFS since they changed the packaging some time ago. So one pump per tank is pretty sufficient. You can probably run 3 tanks at once with a single 3704 with little noise, though you'd have to get several of the "air stones" aka diffusers separately. One box comes with 2 diffusers. Oddly, the price difference between the 3702 and 3704 is really small. I think I paid $55 for my 3704 at C328 when the 3702 is like $45 or 50.


Yes, I've heard very good things about the Eheim air pumps and how silent they run. But most folks seemed to be on Hi-Blow for some reason. I'm a total noob on air pumps.

How can I manage the bubbling noise and the droplets sprayed by bursting bubbles?
I need to eventually run 16 partitions so that's alot of noise and bubbles.

For the noise, I can put the thing on timer to cut off at night, but I'm very leery of the evaporation and aerosol generated by having so many air stones.

----------


## bai

If you are going to run so many outlet for air. I would suggest you to get the "Medo" brand it's very slient then Hi blow. As "Medo" run with piston.

For price wise is about the same.

Here the link for Medo Air pump:- http://absolute-koi.com/subcat47.html

Here the link for Hi Blow Air Pump:- http://hiblowairpumps.net/

----------


## Navanod

> Pictures pictures~!!!!


 :Grin:  Yes Sir! Tonight I take Sir!




> If you are going to run so many outlet for air. I would suggest you to get the "Medo" brand it's very slient then Hi blow. As Hi Blow run with drum and "Medo" run with piston.
> 
> For price wise is about the same.



Thanks for the tip. I'm trying not to have to run another extension multiplug to power a platoon of airpumps so yes, this is one option.

----------


## stormhawk

HiBlow are great for people with many things to run off an air pump like those with breeding racks and such, but the output point requires a special splitter valve. They are not exactly silent to begin with. I'm running my Eheim on second lowest output and it's already producing enough air to power the 2 Eheim diffusers in the tank at full strength with the other output going to 4 other tanks. So I guess for your setup with only 2 tanks to aerate per compartment, a single 3704 will do.

Prior to this, I was using a smaller GEX pump and it was not that powerful nor silent. The pump from Hailea with 4 outputs is not that silent either, a little noisy but it does produce a lot of air. Was using it to power 2 rows of tanks in the past when I was deep into killies.

----------


## Navanod

I have 16 compartments to aerate. 8 per tank. Wait, I can probably take 4 compartments out as these are directly under the 1st overflow and are well circulated.
12 compartments then.
Yes, silence is a concern. Sounds like Eheim's airpumps are the only quiet ones in the market!
Hmmm...

----------


## stormhawk

For 12 compartments I guess running 2 x 3704 might be worthwhile. Will set you back by around $100+ but for peace of mind I guess it's alright. They have a small Hi Blow unit called Hi Blow Baby. Can find 2nd hand but not sure of the noise output. 

In my case, I hear the bubbles more than the pump.  :Laughing:

----------


## weiquan

> Hey! Thanks for the offer bro. Yea, the PVC stuff took me awhile to locate and they still gave me the wrong pieces, resulting in 2 extra trips to do exchange. Luckily GC is just next door to the hardware place, so they weren't entirely wasted trips.
> It was a real learning experience and I found that PVC can be used for so many things!


The hardware store near GC i believe does not specialize in pipe and fittings but more to general hardware.
I'm located more to the north side at Ang Mo Kio and pipe and fittings is my forte.  :Smile: 
There are actually PVC gate valves but they are very costly (not made in china) 
and i remember they would need extra adapters to fit AW fittings.

But for my own set up i use the ball valves with union ends also due to too much ex stock LOL . 
and also to be able to have the choice to detach the setups when i need to do modification.

----------


## Navanod

> For 12 compartments I guess running 2 x 3704 might be worthwhile. Will set you back by around $100+ but for peace of mind I guess it's alright. They have a small Hi Blow unit called Hi Blow Baby. Can find 2nd hand but not sure of the noise output. 
> 
> In my case, I hear the bubbles more than the pump.


Yes, the bubble noise is what drives me nuts. Anyway to mitigate?




> The hardware store near GC i believe does not specialize in pipe and fittings but more to general hardware.
> I'm located more to the north side at Ang Mo Kio and pipe and fittings is my forte. 
> There are actually PVC gate valves but they are very costly (not made in china) 
> and i remember they would need extra adapters to fit AW fittings.
> 
> But for my own set up i use the ball valves with union ends also due to too much ex stock LOL . 
> and also to be able to have the choice to detach the setups when i need to do modification.


I remember you now! You're the merchant doing the steel racks!
Union valves are nice for tight spots with limited space, but not cost effective for my project. I'm using the ball valves and although they work, each time the pump gets shut off and back on, the flow is wrong and I get alot of water going into the 2nd overflow pipe.
I suspect the bubbles cannot be auto-purged from the main pipes with the ball valves, causing flowrates to be reduced.
Gatevalves would be nice for fine adjustments, but I doubt it'll solve the problem.

Still, it's not a major issue, just abit of noise that can be resolved in 10 secs by turning the ball valve to flush the bubbles out.

----------


## stormhawk

No way to mitigate except to place the air stones at a deeper level. That way the bubbles take longer to rise to the surface, so you don't hear the "pop" sound so much. The pump by itself makes minimal noise, which can be dampened by placing it in a sound proof box or something similar.

----------


## Jovel

most noises from the air pump is because of its vibration. Normally I just cut a piece of filter wool and place under it, probably reduce the noise level by 80%~ or so.

----------


## Navanod

> No way to mitigate except to place the air stones at a deeper level. That way the bubbles take longer to rise to the surface, so you don't hear the "pop" sound so much. The pump by itself makes minimal noise, which can be dampened by placing it in a sound proof box or something similar.


I was talking to Ecalyte sometime ago and he mentioned some kind of contraption related to UGF that will have the bubbles burst in a tube above water or something that can mitigate the noise and the splashes. Haven't gotten around to exploring that though. Think I'll stick to the W flow idea for now.




> most noises from the air pump is because of its vibration. Normally I just cut a piece of filter wool and place under it, probably reduce the noise level by 80%~ or so.


My primary worry is not the pump noise, even my powerhead is sitting on a thick piece of foam in the sump. Haha. Its the bubbling and splashing noises I'm leery of. Thanks for the tip nonetheless  :Smile:

----------


## stormhawk

I got an idea on how to reduce the noise from the bubbles.



You can probably do this with a PVC U-tube. At the top, you have a check valve going one way out, attached to a short piece of airline tubing with a control valve at the end (not shown). This acts to bleed any excess air. The green sections are fine SS mesh held in place with PVC end caps so no shrimps get trapped inside. The patchy black area is some filter sponge stuffed in to prevent any bubbles from escaping. Or just replace the mesh on the exit part with a sponge that can fit over the tube. It's basically a circulating system but also works to dampen the bubbling sound since the airstone will be within the tube itself.

This is like the uplift tube for the Satellite boxes, but with an extension to direct flow back into the tank. The wavy line is the water line, so the upper section where the bleeder is should always be above water. You might have to tinker with it for awhile.

----------


## gryphon

I am not sure if this device selling at GC will help with the bubble noise http://www.gcshop-sg.com/product_vie...ipp=100&stm=-1

----------


## stormhawk

Somehow, it doesn't show how the bubbles will eventually escape.

----------


## Navanod

> I got an idea on how to reduce the noise from the bubbles.
> 
> 
> 
> You can probably do this with a PVC U-tube. At the top, you have a check valve going one way out, attached to a short piece of airline tubing with a control valve at the end (not shown). This acts to bleed any excess air. The green sections are fine SS mesh held in place with PVC end caps so no shrimps get trapped inside. The patchy black area is some filter sponge stuffed in to prevent any bubbles from escaping. Or just replace the mesh on the exit part with a sponge that can fit over the tube. It's basically a circulating system but also works to dampen the bubbling sound since the airstone will be within the tube itself.
> 
> This is like the uplift tube for the Satellite boxes, but with an extension to direct flow back into the tank. The wavy line is the water line, so the upper section where the bleeder is should always be above water. You might have to tinker with it for awhile.


Bro, you're truly a master of MS paint. Thanks for the taking the time to do this up.
Would this design help with water movement? The "down pipe" part may not get sufficient flow? Or was it meant to bubble the water over to the other side?




> I am not sure if this device selling at GC will help with the bubble noise http://www.gcshop-sg.com/product_vie...ipp=100&stm=-1


From this video, it seemed to be more for marine tank?

----------


## stormhawk

I think it should help, at least a little since it's basically a reverse sponge filter. I think you can modify a small sponge filter to do this. That way you don't have to spend too much to experiment. Or, you can DIY a mini K1 media reactor bottle with a cheap airstone. I found this interesting DIY thread where this Irishman modified a sponge filter with a K1 reactor outlet:

http://www.irishfishkeepers.com/inde...ing-bed-filter

This Totto product looks cool but I didn't see it at GC when I was there. It diffuses the flow of the bubbles going by the video. Might be worthwhile for your rack but I don't think it will add much circulation.

----------


## ralliart12

> ...That insect screening mesh is only good for one thing - making a moss wall...





> Can keep for other things too. 
> 
> Good as a project base for a moss wall or making a moss carpet...


Off-topic a bit, may I know how come the insect screening mesh _serves well_ as a moss wall?

----------


## avex30

> I think it should help, at least a little since it's basically a reverse sponge filter. I think you can modify a small sponge filter to do this. That way you don't have to spend too much to experiment. Or, you can DIY a mini K1 media reactor bottle with a cheap airstone. I found this interesting DIY thread where this Irishman modified a sponge filter with a K1 reactor outlet:
> 
> http://www.irishfishkeepers.com/inde...ing-bed-filter
> 
> This Totto product looks cool but I didn't see it at GC when I was there. It diffuses the flow of the bubbles going by the video. Might be worthwhile for your rack but I don't think it will add much circulation.


I don't whether did they remove it there was a sample running in the 4ft tank that house the fire red 2 weeks ago. I was looking at it for sometimes and thinking of something like your idea. 

The irsh man mod is good DIY but it will still bubbling sound but not as
Loud basically with that k1 reactor it does reduce some sound. What I see in that totto one is basically reduce splashing from bubbles also I think it another function is to have more oxygen trap the water creating more oxygen rich enviroment. If you have a relief valve it will just be like the k1 reactor or just a circulation device. For your bro stormhawk to me is more like a circulation devices.

----------


## stormhawk

> Off-topic a bit, may I know how come the insect screening mesh _serves well_ as a moss wall?


ralliart, sorry I missed your post. The insect mesh does well as a moss wall with support from sucker pads. The grid size should be big enough for the fronds to grow out from. Refer to these links:

http://www.killies.com/Mosswall.htm - by timebomb
http://www.killies.com/Ronnie%27smosswall.htm - by Ronwill

@avex30,

The Totto serves it purpose but for what it's worth, the DIY by Navanod in a separate DIY thread was just as good. Though I must admit, the movement of the bubbles in a undulating fashion within the Totto is quite nice to look at. IMO, the circulation is directed downwards so it is concentrated at a certain spot. I prefer something that would create more water movement at the end of the tank which has lack of water circulation.

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...839#post660839

----------


## ralliart12

> ralliart, sorry I missed your post. The insect mesh does well as a moss wall with support from sucker pads. The grid size should be big enough for the fronds to grow out from. Refer to these links:
> 
> http://www.killies.com/Mosswall.htm - by timebomb
> http://www.killies.com/Ronnie%27smosswall.htm - by Ronwill...


No worries, you didn't miss my question (I only posted the question recently while I'm going through my old subscribed threads).

Any way, the reason I asked is because they (insect screening mesh) are "floppy" material & since rigid alternatives like stainless steel mesh with competitive fine grid are available, why not use the rigid alternative?




> ...Though I must admit, the movement of the bubbles _in a undulating fashion_ within the Totto is quite nice to look at...


Any idea how the Totto achieves that?




> ...I prefer something that would create more water movement at the end of the tank which has lack of water circulation...


Why not a Tunze nanoStream?

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## stormhawk

The floppy material was an early design, which worked but had its drawbacks. Some people have modified it by using the plastic mesh and then attaching it to a rigid piece of egg crate, thus creating a more stable wall. Of course anyone can use SS mesh to do a moss wall, but if you have leftover plastic mesh, it has its purposes.  :Wink: 

I have no idea how the Totto device achieves that movement of the bubbles. My guess is probably because of the enclosed structure with the open side right at the bottom. Maybe with slower flow of air, it might not undulate, but the current that it generates is quite gentle, albeit in a single direction.

The NanoStream is not suitable for shrimp tanks, since the slits are big enough for a shrimp to wander in and get killed by the rotating blades, hence the need for aerators like airstones and such.

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## avex30

> Somehow, it doesn't show how the bubbles will eventually escape.


Above the top capping there is 2 small hole which allow air to escape.

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## stormhawk

Yes I saw the holes on the show unit at GC. Perhaps Don can tell us which one he prefers. The Totto or his DIY bottle method.  :Wink:

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## Navanod

I think, for the TOTTO, we are getting a very nice looking product and a very high quality airstone that produce alot of fine bubbles with relatively minimal pressure. It does the job of providing aeration without the splashes and very minimal noise.
However, water movement is restricted to the base of the thing and comes out alternatively on the left and right, depending on the undulating movement.
How this movement is achieve I cannot really explained, but perhaps the force of air pushing on one side and the release of that force from the other builds up till a high point, then collapses and change side?

As for my DIY, I had made some revision and showed the final version




I quite liked it, as it achieves all my requirement for splash control, noise and also provides water movement throughout the water column from bottom to top. But its ugly and bulky and somewhat fragile.
I'm thinking of using smaller, but more tightly spaces bottles instead to achieve the same effect with a smaller footprint.

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## mincedmeat

You could try getting a solid transparent pipe and punch minute holes through the entire length of it. When the air stone is placed at the bottom of the pipe, air is channeled upwards through the pipe and as well as sideways due to air being able to escape through the holes. This should be able to solve your water movement throughout your tank and yet still look pretty.

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## huizhong

> I think, for the TOTTO, we are getting a very nice looking product and a very high quality airstone that produce alot of fine bubbles with relatively minimal pressure. It does the job of providing aeration without the splashes and very minimal noise.
> However, water movement is restricted to the base of the thing and comes out alternatively on the left and right, depending on the undulating movement.
> How this movement is achieve I cannot really explained, but perhaps the force of air pushing on one side and the release of that force from the other builds up till a high point, then collapses and change side?
> 
> As for my DIY, I had made some revision and showed the final version
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


won't the shrimps swim from below and get trap inside since there is no escape above?

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## Navanod

> You could try getting a solid transparent pipe and punch minute holes through the entire length of it. When the air stone is placed at the bottom of the pipe, air is channeled upwards through the pipe and as well as sideways due to air being able to escape through the holes. This should be able to solve your water movement throughout your tank and yet still look pretty.


The idea was to channel the bubbles into the "bell shaped trap" at the top so they burst inside the dome and contained the splashes. If the bubbles escape from the sides, they'll still burst at the surface and cause sprays.




> won't the shrimps swim from below and get trap inside since there is no escape above?


There are plenty of escapes and they are normally expelled from the bubble trap almost immediately

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## Ecalyte

Why not just get a cheap $10 pump and force the water flow that way.. Haha..

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## Navanod

I considered that, but this pump will need to create water circulation in 14 partitions and will also dump heat into the water.
Multiple small pumps would mean too much power sockets to work with and too much heat, hence the decision to get 1 powerful airpump instead

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## mincedmeat

Very interesting problem you have here. May I suggest that you post a FTS with what you want to achieved and the limitations you face. It might help us in helping you brainstorm an idea  :Smile:

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## avex30

> Why not just get a cheap $10 pump and force the water flow that way.. Haha..


Haha Er.... Will work but somewhere might get flood hahaha

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## avex30

> Very interesting problem you have here. May I suggest that you post a FTS with what you want to achieved and the limitations you face. It might help us in helping you brainstorm an idea


I think you read from his 1st post his fts is there.

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## avex30

> I considered that, but this pump will need to create water circulation in 14 partitions and will also dump heat into the water.
> Multiple small pumps would mean too much power sockets to work with and too much heat, hence the decision to get 1 powerful airpump instead


Your air driven cOncept + bridging design? Will it be able to create a flow??

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## Navanod

The air driven method is doing quite nicely now actually. Just a little messy with so many air lines but much better than having stagnant water in the middle of partitions.
If I can redesign this again, I'll just use a full mesh partition

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## darylets

Wow, very nice setup, sadly i dont have the space to be able to do something like that, but this will serve as some poison if i ever could do it in the future.

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## avex30

> The air driven method is doing quite nicely now actually. Just a little messy with so many air lines but much better than having stagnant water in the middle of partitions.
> If I can redesign this again, I'll just use a full mesh partition


I can imagine there hahahaha all the tubing flying here and there hmmm that remind me of someone that posted with alot of pipe and hose flying all over the shop  :Razz:

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## Navanod

Just got my greedy hands on a Hiblow 100. Time to add more tubings...

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## avex30

> Just got my greedy hands on a Hiblow 100. Time to add more tubings...


Seriously Lfs in the making........ Well if you consolidated would be tidy but some tubing will need to be longer.

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## Navanod

Ok folks, I've encountered 2 issues and I did some reading but could not come to a sure solution.

1. I've more or less given up having a surface skimming action from the overflow over the glass partitions. However, unlike the bottom of the partition, the top only has support on 3 sides, the top is opened. I've tried all kinds of mesh, sponges and supports but all will bend or loosen over time and let the shrimplets sneak through. I no longer can afford that and do not have the time to keep trying other means.
My last 2 options are to either use very strong magnets to clamp meshes in place and plug minor holes with sponges. Or just bite the bullet and use silicone to seal the mesh to the top of the partition permanently.
The magnets may still fail and would look pretty ugly. I would also need to spend alot of time on waterproofing the magnets and of course, money.

With the silicone, I can off the pumps and lower the water levels just enough to work dry but I cannot afford to leave the pump off for very long. The concern is of course with the silicone having to cure when in contact with tank water.
From what I understand, silicone cures by a reaction with moisture (H2O), that produces acetic acid (vinegar) as a byproduct. This is not toxic but may affect pH. The plus side is, the silicone will cure extra quick in water (may be weaker but strength is not a concern. Should I just do it?

2. The other issue is I found springtails on my frogbits. They are harmless but in large numbers, unsightly. Physical removal is not working. Anyone have any better ideas?

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## avex30

I think that is you last resort unless you want to go into engineering using 2 acrylic sandwich the mesh in between glue up if you create a slot at the end after you glue the arcyllic you form a slot to slot down your glass.

Springtail hmm they shouldn't be able to stay submerge maybe remove your floater.

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## RonWill

> ...silicone cures by a reaction with moisture (H2O), that produces acetic acid (vinegar) as a byproduct


 Leached acetic acids can likely crash the existing bacterial colonies and then lead to another bacterial bloom. Are you prepared for that, as well as shrimp casualties arising from the pH swing?

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## Navanod

> Leached acetic acids can likely crash the existing bacterial colonies and then lead to another bacterial bloom. Are you prepared for that, as well as shrimp casualties arising from the pH swing?


Yes Ron, that's the main worry. I had tested using just enough silicone to seal a mesh to a sponge and putting it in after an hour. pH didn't fall at all over the next 2 days.
I think the trick is to do it in small quantities each time & use as little silicone as possible?
I'm curious about one other thing. If I let the silicone air dry, and considering the fact that acetic acid had an even higher boiling point than water, wouldn't it also take very long to evaporate? I would think the acetic acid would simply form a thin layer on the silicone until the next time it touches water, when it would dissolve.

Such a pain  :Confused:

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## Navanod

Ok, after some additional thoughts, maybe a rigid support, silicone above the water line, will be sufficient to keep the partition mesh in place...will try later

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