# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  Weeee..... I have annulatus again!!!!

## RonWill

No thanks to Eric and his kind offer (in this post) for a group of ANNs last night, I didn't get to sleep till 3am... quite excited to have them grace my decommissioned containers again, even if it meant just looking at their stressed-out colors!!  :Grin: 

Checked on them earlier and syringe-fed some live daphnia around 7am. They've colored up nicely and... guess what???!! Almost peed in my pants to see 2 young pairs spawning in a clump of moss!! I know from past experience they weren't rehearsing! HAHAHA!!!! Eric, if only you can see that stupid grin on my face now... Again, better not because I'm like a kid let loose in a mega toy store!!  :Laughing: 

Have transferred the grindal starter to a larger tub with fresh coco peat and will be bringing it to my 24/7 air-conditioned workplace. Gonna find a hiding space so my boss won't see it!!  :Razz: 

Again, many thanks for helping to scratch that itch. It was Selena's and my pleasure being able to meet up over a cuppa and Au, it's great to see you again!!

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## Wackytpt

Good... someone's fingers are wet.... I would love to see them.

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## ZackZhou

Haha Ronnie, your boss so nice, never mind la.  :Very Happy:

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## exotic_idiot

Congrates... Finally ease your itch..

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## fishyfanatic

congrats buddy!

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## stormhawk

My fault for infesting your mind with thoughts of ANN again Ronnie?  :Grin:

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## KillieCory

This is awesome news! Welcome back!  :Grin:

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## joeybabooey

Wow, Ron! You're back to killifish huh! That's great news! Would love to see your corridor lined with your killi tanks after you told me stories of back in the day! Would love to learn more about killies from you the next time i drop by your workplace over a ciggarette :P

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## daguldfisher

hahaha! cannot resist the temptations? welcome back ron!

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## Eric Yeo

Ron you are welcome, hope the ANNs and Grindal worms are doing fine.  :Smile: 

Didn't able to use my computer for almost 3 days, on the 20.5.11 night we have coffee and on 21.5.11 afternoon my computer crashed. I sent for repair and was told that all my work data (HD) all gone. Hope my clients wouldn't call me to ask for old files, got nothing for them already.  :Exasperated: 

Ron, sorry to keep your fingers wet again and make you stay awake until 3am to watch the ANNs mating, haha!  :Grin: 

Eric

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## TyroneGenade

Welcome back to killifish, Ron!

Sadly, I'm on the way out... The lab is being remodeling and my fishroom has to shut down for a while and when it starts up again I'm not going to keep anything other than the research fish.

I do still have a few things:
Aphyosemion australe spotless
Simpsonichthys constanciae BSJ
Nothobranchius sp. aff. rachovii Lower Shire MZMW 09-4
Notho. guentheri and then various strains of furzeri.
Simp. magnificus

I'm only really breeding the constanciae and collect eggs of the rachovii and guentheri every now and then. Same for the magnificus.

Anyone interested in some constanciae let me know. They are yours for the price of postage: $7 SGD.

Welcome back Ron. I hope you stick it out for a long time. Maybe KL will be inspired to start up again too.

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## richardkwan

Hi all,

I'm new to kilifish and to Aquatic Quotient and would like to try breeding Aphyosemion Australe for a start. Anyone has a pair to sell?

Thanks.

Richard

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## daguldfisher

Hi Tyrone,
````````````````````````
I'd be happy to free your hands of your killifish. Especially Simpsonichthys and Aphyosemion. Pls sms me how to contact you. I am more free on weekdays than on weekends. But sometimes busy on weekdays too so really need to set the meeting time. Pls contact me at 92289073 really need those stocks.

-Andy

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## Emokidz

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm new to kilifish and to Aquatic Quotient and would like to try breeding Aphyosemion Australe for a start. Anyone has a pair to sell?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Richard


You could try C328 for a start, they bring in these guys. Females are available from time to time, not all the time though.

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## TyroneGenade

> Hi Tyrone,
> ````````````````````````
> I'd be happy to free your hands of your killifish. Especially Simpsonichthys and Aphyosemion. Pls sms me how to contact you. I am more free on weekdays than on weekends. But sometimes busy on weekdays too so really need to set the meeting time. Pls contact me at 92289073 really need those stocks.


Hi Andy,

Sorry, I forget that I'm not a regular here anymore and people may not know me... I'm in South Africa so a weekend visit would be very expensive. I can send eggs though but I have nearly zero success in sending Aphyosemion eggs to Singapore. Annuals fair much better.

Kind regards

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## daguldfisher

Wow! You are in Africa now. I've checked your postings this morning to check your current location. Was I just mistaken or you were in China in some postings. Really want to get hold of them to breed them. But I believe shipping alone will be too costly from there. I hope one day our bros in here can sell some of those fancy Aphyosemion. How much will the damage be with your cost and shipping cost of all those Aphyosemion and Simpsonichthys to Singapore? Thailand people ship them in those anti static plus padding plus plastic tubs and peat so as to ensure good quality eggs upon arrival.

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## richardkwan

Hi Bernard,

Thanks for the tips.

Rgds,
Richard

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## Emokidz

> How much will the damage be with your cost and shipping cost of all those Aphyosemion and Simpsonichthys to Singapore? Thailand people ship them in those anti static plus padding plus plastic tubs and peat so as to ensure good quality eggs upon arrival.


I believe what Tyrone means to say is that the eggs don't make it over successfully not because of packaging issues, but because the aphyosemion species are non-annuals. As such, their eggs are not as robust as the annual killies, which eggs can be incubated in peat. The more commonly available eggs from thailand are mostly from nothos and other annuals. People almost never ship non-annual eggs long-haul. The costs and maintenence of keeping killies are probably reason to why so many hobbyists lose interest/can't afford to stay in the killie scene.

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## daguldfisher

Ey? Some hobbyists also remove the eggs from water for few days to incubate faster right? Which can be used for shipping, right? Or keeping them in the tank like the others do better than the first method. I hope somebody can clarify before I order eggs of other aphyosemion species.

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## RonWill

> Ron you are welcome, hope the ANNs and Grindal worms are doing fine


 Eric, I'm happy to report tiny ANNs growing out with their parents. Will scoop the little buggers to a larger container when time allows.

Strangely, the grindals aren't doing well at all, possibly due to the blasted warm weather we've been getting lately. I'll see if I can save or revive the culture. If not, I'll give 'ya a holler again.




> Welcome back Ron. I hope you stick it out for a long time. Maybe KL will be inspired to start up again too.


 Tyrone, I'm not sure if things will go long haul but shoot me some pics of _Simpsonichthys constanciae_ BSJ
and _Nothobranchius sp. aff. rachovii_ Lower Shire MZMW 09-4... I *might* have an itch to scratch!  :Roll Eyes:  Don't think Kwek Leong is still game though.




> ...But I believe shipping alone will be too costly from there. I hope one day our bros in here can sell some of those fancy Aphyosemion


 Andy, hefty shipping costs is part of the package and it isn't a soft bullet to bite. I'm afraid you'd just have to deal with it and move on to enjoy the fruits of your labor or painfully wait till someone has something to sell.

Do note that if you're ordering eggs, that not all non-annuals will fair well with peat-packing due to their relatively short incubation period but it is a definite advantage if shipped express and water-packed using breather bags lest the eggs hatch out during shipping. I personally received two dozen fry of _Chromaphyosemion bitaeniatum_ 'Ijebu Ode' which I ordered as eggs from David Mikkelson many many moons ago.

BTW, which _Aphyosemion_ species/populations are you aiming at?

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## mlgt

Congrats. Post some pics up?

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## RonWill

> Post some pics up?


 Pics of ...??

Ricky, if you're referring to the ANN's setup, it's similar to something I did before; shallow-longish or round plastic containers, very aged water teeming with microscopic organisms, base full of mulm and detritus, lots of moss and floaters, live food (tubifex and daphnia) plus finely crushed flakes, tonnes of TLC and a pair of bi-focaled peeping eyes!!

Much have been said regarding _Pseudepiplatys annulatus_ in this thread. Some links might be dead but still, it's a good read.

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## richardkwan

Hi Andy,

If you are ordering eggs of Aphyosemion species, I would love to chip in and share the cost, if this is ok with you.

Rgds,
Richard

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## daguldfisher

Sure Richard, I will tell you when they auction those long finned Aph species in Aquabid again. Last time I lost the bidding coz I suppose those species I am after are rare ones. I hope you can pass me a way to contact you in case.

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## daguldfisher

Hi Ron, I am eyeing on those long finned Aph like the Australes and fancy Simp ones. I know they are hard the keep but this is my hobby. I also use them for decorating my place so I get my kids and family to enjoy my tanks. Sadly lost the last bidding in Aquabid, they rarely auction fancy Aphyosemions. I dont plan to buy eggs of Australes, a bro in this forum selling them to me as adults. But I am still thinking where to set it up. My place, my wife wont let me set up another tank until we move to the new place. My office, I cannot feed them on Saturday and Sunday and holidays.

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## Emokidz

Oh are you referring to Chromaphyosemions? They may need lower temperatures (<25 degrees).

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## richardkwan

Hi Andy,

Thanks for letting me join in your venture! My email: [email protected]

Rgds,
Richard

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## RonWill

> ... Chromaphyosemions? They may need lower temperatures (<25 degrees).


 Ben, most Chroms do ok with our weather using evaporative method, eg. fan cooling. For breeding, sub-26°C is essential.

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## RonWill

> I am eyeing on those long finned Aph like the Australes and fancy Simp ones
> 
> Last time I lost the bidding coz I suppose those species I am after are rare ones


 Specifically which? Names/populations/links? I have an itch to scratch too, you know...  :Roll Eyes:

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## daguldfisher

Hehe had to check for the names of those killies first. I like those in chroma group of aphyosemions. Since I saw them in aquabid I keep on waiting for them. But very expensive though. 12 eggs no guarrantee or whatsoever for around 40 bucks before. Now considering the info I got about shipping these non-annuals, I am wondring how much chnace I have to raise and breed them.

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## RonWill

Andy, see if you can arrange with the seller for non-annual eggs to be shipped in breather/breathing bags and water-packed with a tinge of malachite green and/or methylene blue. The control of bacteria and insurance of fry hatching en-route (while in water) greatly increases your chances. Of course prices won't be cheap but let's not beat a dead horse.

Also, be prepared to have small foods for tiny mouths. Nothing is more painful than getting living fry of what you wanted and losing them to starvation.

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## daguldfisher

Does anybody here have those chromaphyosemions? Because I dont really trust buying the eggs overseas specially with the warnings I have been reading lately.

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## daguldfisher

I found a new entry in aquabid, aph chroma volcanum. The guy selling 100 eggs for 25 euros with shipping. But he does not give any warranty and no info on packaging. Dont know if worth a try.

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## Emokidz

A good indication is to look at the person's number of past transactions and ratings on the dealer. The more popular killie breeders on Aquabid are usually reliable.

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## stormhawk

100 eggs of volcanum may seem like a good deal, but you can lose everything if the seller packs it badly. One thing I have learnt is that a person's feedback is not an indicator of their reliability as a seller, especially on Aquabid. Always check the exchange rate to get a rough idea of how much to pay. If you are trying to keep Chromaphyosemion, do some research beforehand, as highland Chrom. do not do well in our local climate. To date I think only Chrom. bitaeniatum and splendopleure (lowland populations) are capable of withstanding our weather.

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## Eric Yeo

Hi Ron, that is a good news that the ANNs are breeding already. 
The ANNs from Green Chapter look different, the Anal fin got this Red tint, the one I passed is Black.
Sms me when you need the GW again.

Eric

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## RonWill

Hey Eric, many thanks in advance on the GW. Have another starter culture pending collection from JianYang but will SMS if I need help with these buggers again. ANN fry are still with the main group and doing OK.

Ya, both lines of ANNs are different and have a little over 20 from GC's tank, mixed sexes of course. As usual, I practice keeping both lines separate and hypothetically, it'd be interesting to see what may arise from the combination of both but presently really don't have the time to experiment. If you have the space, I can pass you a few trios of GC ANNs to play with.

Not being able to maintain as many tanks as before, it's prudent to be more selective in what I really desire to keep. No prizes for guessing correct but I'll be setting aside two 2ft tanks for just the Monrovia alone... whenever that may happen and hopefully, I do not hit 80 by then!!!  :Laughing:

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## TyroneGenade

Hi all,

Hadn't had a chance to visit for a bit.

Non-annuals don't work as the fry can't take the heat and very often so can't the eggs. The annuals also respond the heat but fair much better. It doesn't have anything to do with posting. If anything, the fast postal time counts in ones favour.

Those of you interested in eggs please email me. I don't have eggs of the constanciae right now but I do have of the rachovii and ruudwildekampi Mbezi River TZN 09-8 (these are lovely!).

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## daguldfisher

Anybody knows how to contact richardkwan as i am planning to buy from aquabid member. Please ask him to contact me at 92289073 as I cannot pm him.

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## daguldfisher

> Hey Eric, many thanks in advance on the GW. Have another starter culture pending collection from JianYang but will SMS if I need help with these buggers again. ANN fry are still with the main group and doing OK.
> 
> Ya, both lines of ANNs are different and have a little over 20 from GC's tank, mixed sexes of course. As usual, I practice keeping both lines separate and hypothetically, it'd be interesting to see what may arise from the combination of both but presently really don't have the time to experiment. If you have the space, I can pass you a few trios of GC ANNs to play with.
> 
> Not being able to maintain as many tanks as before, it's prudent to be more selective in what I really desire to keep. No prizes for guessing correct but I'll be setting aside two 2ft tanks for just the Monrovia alone... whenever that may happen and hopefully, I do not hit 80 by then!!!


I believe I know where you are getting them. I am also waiting for him for my Malende. When are you meeting up with him. Mind if I tag along if time permits?

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## maxima

Have you guys started collecting eggs yet ? Are you using mops ?

I was breeding them in a small setup with mops, I had a trio. Soft and acidic water, it was working very well. At first I thought I had nothing and was very disappointed, I hung the mops to dry...1 day later I saw the mops were loaded with eggs and had a small shock. I had completely missed them somehow and they had become much more visible when the mop went damp.

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## RonWill

Anil,
I am raising little ANNs in their own grow-out container but don't have time to shoot more pics. Nothing has changed from how I handled them in the past, so any information or images found in those early threads are still relevant.

Strangely, despite my love for ANNs, I am destined with an incapability to find their elusive eggs and also, my denied success with damp out-of-water incubation for ANN eggs, including mop or peat pack.

...and now, something I can't wait to share... [it will be difficult for me to sleep tonight!!!  :Grin: ]

Hi all,
Aside from the small group of ANNs that I bought at Green Chapter, I have also acquired (from trusted overseas source), a decent collection of young pairs of *breeding-size* killifishes, *PLUS* an assortment of annual and non-annual eggs, ziploc'ed safely in damp peat.

This is a golden opportunity for those wanting to learn how to breed killies or experience raising fishes from eggs before they embark on their search for rarer killie species from Aquabid [ and no more excuses about not being able to find any killies in sunny SG  :Blah:  ].

As expected from a terminally-incurable killie-nut (me lah... who else!!), many in my list are population-coded with the exception of a few AS (Aquarium Strain) or CI (Commercial Imports - established elsewhere but breeds true).

Although it IS a passion, this personal endeavor has made an unbelievably, astronomically HUGE dent in my already-anemic wallet but still, plans are underway, to collaborate with a choice LFS, to serve as distribution hub, to promote the hobby and optimistically, to progress further henceforth.

Depending on the response from across other local aquatic forums, more killie species *might* arrive at our shores and this *could* be the debut of more exciting times for this very niche hobby. Good news indeed, for the many wannabe-killie-keepers out there, to get their butts off the fence and for those not wanting to fork out expensive EMS shipping or lingering doubts of reputable seller.

I honestly believe that this is what many hobbyists have been waiting for and more details will be posted soon, after I catch my breath and hopefully, we see things happening before I make a brief mid-July overseas working trip. So ya... stay tuned!!!!

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## stormhawk

Time to raid your egg collection Ron?  :Grin:

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## maxima

Oh please don't mention dents in wallets, I am just about to get into an Abacinum + Joergenscheeli fight over at AB. I knew I should have been a doctor...But then again I would have never found the time. Oh well. 

Good luck with your new fish ! Killifish is still a dead zone for Turkey. People over here seem to have an unhealthily boring obsession with cichlid species. I will never get that. They go "ooh aah" when they see a killifish, but that's about it. 

Regarding ANNs in peat and mop incubation; I have 2 methods both of which worked %100 Ron. I know you are experienced but let me share my way just in case you'd like to try again. 

One rule that applies to both methods is to never handle the eggs. Just cut the strands of mops they're adhered to. 
1. A small amount of peat in a petri dish. Wash it with acriflavine, leave it wet. Almost dripping wet. Just place the mop strands on the peat, close the dish and put it away. 
2. Wash the mop strands with acriflavine, place them in the dish or any sealable bag, no peat - Seal it and put it away. 

Simple, right ? Very and it works like a charm. I suspect it may be the "no handling the eggs" part that makes a difference.

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## RonWill

Anil, I've tried your said method many times; also with malachite green, methylene blue, 'Japanese Yellow Powder', plus other off-the-shelf anti-bacteria stuffs but no go. Since I can't see their eggs, I never attempt to pick or finger-handle them. Neither do I fair well with shipped ANN eggs, be it in peat, yarn or water-filled vials. Maybe it's fated like Romeo and Juliet.... so near and yet so far!!

Many thanks in advance for the well wishes. I dream (and I really do) to see a more vibrant local killie scene and that more newcomers will have as much fun as the earlier killie-keepers did.

Just pray I don't declare bankruptcy any time soon (nobody will understand why any sane person will torment themselves this way) but yeah... my little crystal ball foresee two idiots (meaning you and me  :Laughing: ) exchanging more emails and eggs in the near future.

Good luck shooting the other bugger on AB (I'm glad he isn't me!!). I've been there, done that and bought the whole [email protected] wardrobe!!

JianYang, 3 species are well acclimatized now but only 2 species (both annuals) are available in decent numbers for sale in pairs. *Might* have additional females to form breeding trios but let me do a proper head count first. Assorted eggs in limited supply but should be ample to keep everyone happy.

Further news later. I'm arranging for a mutually beneficial collaboration with my selected LFS and waiting for their blessings and "go ahead". Don't come around first... I won't show you anything or leak anything  :Blah:  (not even if you bribe me with a quarter-pound steak). No point spoiling the surprise for you, right? Hehehe....

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## maxima

> Just pray I don't declare bankruptcy any time soon (nobody will understand why any sane person will torment themselves this way) but yeah... my little crystal ball foresee two idiots (meaning you and me ) exchanging more emails and eggs in the near future.


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 
Oh well, at least I'm gonna have me some Abacinum unless someone makes a big move at the very end. No time better than now since I seem to have figured out how to hatch/raise diapterons - except Fulgens. Fulgens still do as they please and I have yet to understand why they breed and why they don't or why the fry die suddenly at times...Well I guess we all love the challenge, don't we ? I still wish they'd find a more convenient way of protesting things instead of just dying. They're like "Ok Anil, after 2 months, we've decided to die now. Feel free to spend the rest of the day wondering why. Goodbye!"

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## daguldfisher

> Oh well, at least I'm gonna have me some Abacinum unless someone makes a big move at the very end. No time better than now since I seem to have figured out how to hatch/raise diapterons - except Fulgens. Fulgens still do as they please and I have yet to understand why they breed and why they don't or why the fry die suddenly at times...Well I guess we all love the challenge, don't we ? I still wish they'd find a more convenient way of protesting things instead of just dying. They're like "Ok Anil, after 2 months, we've decided to die now. Feel free to spend the rest of the day wondering why. Goodbye!"


Hahaha! You are one of them. So freaking expensive! So, how? Did you win the item? You wanna bid for the new diapteron eggs?

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## maxima

Nope, I came to my senses and let it go...  :Grin: 

I'm just gonna collect different Cyanostictum locations for now, Abacinum is too expensive for the moment. I was thinking of Yekara or Makokou but 12+ eggs is really not an ideal number to start a new location. I'd rather wait for 20+ eggs packages if and when they appear...

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## stormhawk

Anil, I think you should attend one of the EU killifish shows. The DKG and KCF shows are pretty good to get Aphyosemion and Diapteron.  :Smile:

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## maxima

Now now Stormhawk, don't give me them crazy ideas  :Grin:  I have never had the pleasure of attending a killie show. I would so love to do that one day. Everything aside, it should be a wonderful feeling to start with adult fish for once instead of a bunch of eggs...

How is it going over there guys ? What's your water temperature like ? It's 26-29C over here now...

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## stormhawk

Around 26-32 deg C, depends on the day I guess. Even with a cooling fan my main tank can go up by 1-2 degrees. The DKG and KFC shows usually have amazing fish for sale, along with the APK show. Alternatively, you can go for the KAB show in Bulgaria. I have no idea when that is, but it's probably the closest show to Turkey.

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## Hilde

> 2 young pairs spawning in a clump of moss!!


 What size of tank was this in. Was the moss on the ground or floating?

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## RonWill

> What size of tank was this in...


 More like a critter box... 14L x 12W x 6H inches with floaters and moss, hung with stainless steel wire, from slightly out of water to tank's bottom.

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## an1l

I couldn't resist any longer and got myself a bag of Annulatus eggs  :Smile:

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## RonWill

HAHAHA!!! Nice going! Let us know how it turns out for you.

BTW, Anil, have you received the baggie? I'm curious how the eggs are bagged and in what sort of packing. Shoot pics too!!

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## Hilde

> More like a critter box... 14L x 12W x 6H inches with floaters and moss


Then you didn't have a filter? How often did you change water? Do you take the eggs out?

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## an1l

> HAHAHA!!! Nice going! Let us know how it turns out for you.
> 
> BTW, Anil, have you received the baggie? I'm curious how the eggs are bagged and in what sort of packing. Shoot pics too!!


Heheh, thanks Ron. Will shoot pics when the package arrives, should be in a week or so.

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## an1l

Whoops, arrived faster than i thought ! Pics as promised. Putting them in water today;

ann01t.jpg

ann02w.jpg

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## RonWill

Hhmm.... this is a familiar sight. Peat, ziploc, aluminum foil & small styrofoam box. Will work with most annuals & semi-annuals but I never had any luck with SJOs, let alone ANNs. Keep us updated!!

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## an1l

I've got SJO Niger from the same breeder in the same method; had a very high hatch rate of %90-95. I should know because I have 50+ young SJO now and I am terribly worried about space  :Laughing:  Thing with SJO is that you have to re-wet the peat a few times or force-hatch the eggs if they are eyed up for certain; first wetting gets a few fry, second always double or even triple of that number. 

Anyway, I have raised ANN from eggs before but this is the first time I am doing it from someone else's eggs...Let's hope they didn't get cooked on the way and that I have a good hatch rate  :Smile:

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## RonWill

> Then you didn't have a filter? How often did you change water? Do you take the eggs out?


 No filtration, no aeration, no water change. Only a critter box now stuffed full of plants, just replacing evaporated water and largely dependent on a large water:surface ratio.

Eggs?? Erm... can't find them even if my life depended on it. The setup is a nightmare to other fishkeepers but it works for me and I'll will be testing it on 2 trios of young adult _Congopanchax brichardi_. These should handle the same as ANNs... and they're pretty!!  :Grin: 




> I've got SJO Niger from the same breeder in the same method; had a very high hatch rate of %90-95. I should know because I have 50+ young SJO


 After my umpteenth attempts with at least 200 SJO eggs and less than 5 fry, I know that's not my game.

However, I do have 3 pairs of young adults from a CI (commercial import) and they're doing well on both live food and mini sinking pellets. This pic is the largest male, now about 5cm. Robust bugger and still waiting for the caudal fin to grow like a fan.

Females are being conditioned and are quite rounded. Nothing in mops... yet

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## an1l

Ron, 5 out of 200 is just wrong; are you sure you had good eggs ?? 

SJO hatching (in my experience of course) starts after 1 month and as i hear, it may take up to 3 months; but for me, they always hatched (i mean all of them) in 30-50 days.

I bought 3 packages thinking they would be hard to hatch, from 3 different breeders. And yes, they were definitely hard to hatch; until i started using the test vial method. I wasn't sure it was going to work (it does sound funny) but it worked and i force-hatched 2 packages. I did get a few belly sliders who never recovered and a few that got stuck in the eggs but the success rate was about %80.
For the third package, I tried the re-dry/re-wet method and the rate was about %95 with very few belly sliders. I can say this method is a lot safer (for the fry) and gives a much better rate. 

Since then I have used the test vial successfully for both A. Ocellatum and A. Halleri. Before the test vial, I had about 5 Ocellatum; but i could see they were all eyed up and healthy so i tried the test vial again - Voila! The number went up to +15 fry, all of them born literally in my pocket. 

So yeah, space is definitely an issue for me right now...50+ SJOs is very serious! I thought I was going to sell them but I have very few males (about 10) and the rest are all females. This is great for breeding of course; but it's terrible for sales since no one will buy a female...

Anyway, here is an early pic from a male, he's bigger now. He looks similar to yours ? I don't think mine will get the trailing long fins but we'll see...The others are Niger also but much darker, almost gray, I am very curious to see how they will turn out. 

sjo1.jpg

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## an1l

Hey guys, I've just seen my first fry  :Smile:  The hatching container is pretty planted so I was lucky to see it, I bet there are more. And my god I've forgotten how tiny ANN fry are!

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## daguldfisher

How do you do this vial method? Is this the one using pocket sized containers for the eggs and taking a walk? Coz I have some eyed up eggs from my gardneri trios that dont want to hatch yet. And I also have 4 batches of eggs coming from aquabid.
By the way Anil, from where did you buy your SJO eggs? Been planning to buy some also. You mentioned that your SJOs might not grow their tails? Aren't they all supposed to grow their tails like any SJO? What is the difference bet SJO and this gularis? I noticed that the tails of some gularis being shorter, is it really short or are they just not old enough yet? Are they really the same?
Asking these questions because I noticed a guy selling these blue and red gularis. Been wanting to buy SJO niger delta for quite some time.

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## an1l

Hey Andy, this is the vial method:

vialr.jpg

Put about 2cm of hatching water, put 4-5 eggs inside, don't put more because sometimes they stick together. Blow inside the vial and close the lid, put it in your pocket (put it in "up" position in your pocket so eggs stay in water). Go outside and walk for a while, maybe 30-45 mins ? When you come home, you should see fry hatched in the vial. 
***Caution*** Make sure the eggs are eyed up and ready or you may kill or disable them. 

I bought my SJOs from Karuz, Sklar and Rybak on Aquabid. Sklar has his stock from Karuz so basically my fish are from Karuz and Rybak. I can recommend both of them strongly but their fish are different. This fish is from Karuz, Niger Delta:

sjos.jpg

He's not an adult yet but he has very good coloration. 

Rybak's fish are Niger Delta also but they are smaller and darker. I will take some photos soon but that tank has no lighting so I need to move them for photos. Rybak's SJOs grow more slowly also. 

Not all SJOs have the trailing long fins even when they reach adulthood. USA forms tend to have longer fins from what I've seen; Niger Delta ones are usually more colorful and smaller. I guess it can vary though...
Unfortunately I've never had a Gularis so I can't compare SJO and Gularis but yes they are different fish.

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## daguldfisher

Thank you very much Anil for the info. I appreciate them so much. Still waiting for my 4 bags of killi eggs. Then when I get enough space I am gonna get me some more if my wife and my mom allows me. Hehehe!
By the way, which dried food is best for killies like gardneri and australes? The hikari micropellets I am feeding now seems too tiny for them. Although I am feeding them grindal worms half belly full each day, I believe they are not enough.

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## an1l

Andy you are welcome, I am happy to be of help. 

For the adult fish I use only 1 dry food and that is "Hikari Bloodworms". I am very very happy with it. Wilder fish like diapterons and rivulus don't accept it but fundulopanchax species and some aphyosemion (like australe) LOVE it. I also feed them white worms, BBS, decapped BBS and rarely moina. 
I feed my fry with microworms, BBS, moina, vinegar eels and decapped BBS.

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## daguldfisher

My microworms are being wasted currently. They are being ignored by my gardneri akure. Now I am going to transfer my culture again to save them for my next batch of eggs. I just hope they accept the microworms. It is very troublesome hatching bbs every other day to keep fresh and nutritious fry food.

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## an1l

I understand, I am hatching 2 BBS bottles every day! I am very tired but it is the only way. And I have been doing this for 6 months now! Crazy...

I agree they are being wasted with adults, don't even bother. You need bigger stuff. You could also try regular daphnia (like pulex or magna), those are easy to culture.

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## daguldfisher

The thing is, it is my killi fries that is ignoring the microworm. I bought this microworm in preparation for these fries but totally ignored. So now I have to transfer the culture for the 3rd time to save it from crashing.

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## an1l

:Confused:  Are you sure Andy ? That's very odd. How big are your fry ? I mean, every diapteron and rivulus fry eats microworms over here and that's gardneri we're talking about, they eat everything! I have Mamfensis. 
Maybe you just don't notice them eating ?

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## daguldfisher

My fry are just 10 days old. Been trying to observe them days and days. They seem to ignore the microworms or at least not eating well enough. I switched them 3 days ago to bbs and they liked the bbs so much. Everytime I see their tummies filled unlike when they were on microworms. And they seem to grow faster since I switched them. Furthermore I put 2 of day-old endler fry for them to mimic. They seem more active now with their cousins.

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## Hilde

Here is some info on fry food I gathered:
Spirulina or vege flakes and frogen bloodworms mixed in aquarium water

*Infusoria*
Created by soaking substances in boiled water for several weeks. Substances are: banana peels, potato peels, lettuce, cabbage, spinach, and dried tree leaves in spring water. 

Lettuce culture
Put scalded lettuce leaves in jar, enough to cover the bottom of the jar . Add water that is almost boiling to fill the jar about 3/4 of the way full. Leave this standing, uncovered for 24 hours. Then add about 1oz of old aquarium water and cover the jar. After 1 week days, the water should have growth of infusoria. Every 10 days add a piece of scalded lettuce.

The lettuce culture is what I am going to try.

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## Markpolo123

cant agree with u more

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## an1l

Infusoria is definitely very helpful, but i don't culture it seperately anymore. A steady green water culture and lots of surface plants provide all they need until they can take BBS. 

Here's my hatching/raising container and a week old fry. I've seen 6 of them together and i'm sure there's more but it's hell finding them in this setup. 

anncont.jpg

annfry.jpg

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## RonWill

> Here's my hatching/raising container...


 Oh hell... your container looks like crap with all that gunk! Why does it look as bad as mine??!!  :Laughing: 


Then again, who cares... it works and I'm not having that 'soup' for dinner!  :Grin: 

Anil, update us on how the adult ANNs turn out (those from eggs shipped in peat)

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## PohSan

Hi Ron,

Nice to see you back to Killies again. Too busy for killies now. Maybe after switch job.

Regards,
Ong PS

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## an1l

> Oh hell... your container looks like crap with all that gunk! Why does it look as bad as mine??!! 
> 
> 
> Then again, who cares... it works and I'm not having that 'soup' for dinner! 
> 
> Anil, update us on how the adult ANNs turn out (those from eggs shipped in peat)


Haha Ron, your container is awesome! I've been trying to tell people here in Turkey that green water is both healthy and also a good starting food for fry but they all still give me that weird look or the notorious "........." when I say it. 
I use green water myself but not as much as you for the moment. The container only looks dirty because of the peat shipped with the eggs and the catappa leaf inside. The water is only a week old or so...

And damn it's going to take a long time for them to grow, you know that  :Laughing:  But I sure am going to keep you updated...I am more interested in doing a count right now but it's impossible as you can see. 

Ps: I am totally jealous of your hyacinth. They are so hard to find over here now, I have no idea why. I have 2 myself but they refuse to multiply for some reason...

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## stoker

Hi Anil

Yes I agree about GREEN WATER , one of the easy ways pf rearing small fry of any type.
Really the green water is Infusoria that has eaten algae and turned green same as when feeding bbs and the fry have orange belly`s
Always start off new tanks/filters with a good helping of Green Water/Micro Worms gets the system to settle down quicker.

Mike

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## an1l

Things are going faster than i thought! How are your babies doing ?

I am guessing this one is a male, because there are others almost half his size. 

ann01.jpg

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## stoker

Reading back through some of the recent posts regarding LIVE FOOD it seems as if there is a basic problem with the culture sysems used
Firstly Mico-Worms are you Sure andy that you have a micro-worm culture ,, all fry WILL eat them only trouble is that a they are more or less cloourless they DO NOT look as if they have eaten them ,, I feed them to FULL GROWN ADULT SJO`s 120mm at least just to get them hunting and not lazy..

BBs see this link http://www.ohiokillifish.net/brine_shrimp.htm for how to do it easily . I use much the same system in fact I have a article published in the BKA killinews , how do you get tired hatching bbs and it`s something that all fishkeepers learn how to do .
I run 4 hatchers to feed my fry , that`s all notho`s sjo`s and any others ( cory`s and dwarf cichlids ) .

Mike

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## daguldfisher

I observed closely one time and noticed they were actually eating. Just not so obvious. I also use an inverted 'half of a bottle' for the hatching. Actually it is separating the the bbs from the shells that tires me. Because most of the time I end up with a lot of the bbs stuck on the hanky that I used for straining the excess water. But in the end I learned to let go of them and just discard them as there should be enough bbs collected for 2 days. Thanks for the tips bros. Now I am thinking of going back to the green soup. But how do you maintain the amount of infusorians in the green soup while keeping the frys in the same tank?

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## RonWill

> But how do you maintain the amount of infusorians in the green soup while keeping the frys in the same tank?


 You don't. Most would culture micro foods and other live cultures separate from the fry raising container/tank. Keeping both together risk oxygen depletion for the fry and deteriorates the water.

Alternatively, do the 'dirty tank' method. Works for most tiny fry, including ANNs, _Pseudomugil_ species and most lampeyes.

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## stoker

Firstly after you switch off the air supply allow the hatching solution to sit for 10 mins ,, this should allow the egg shells to float to the surface .If you are using the cone part of the bottle the BBS will have collected there ,, now if you aim the air-line into the net or whatever you use most of the BBS end there .

Remember not to overfeed .

PLEASE DO NOT CULTURE MICO FOOD WITH THE FRY BUT DO IT ELSEWHERE ...

Infusoria cultures have been explained in this thread ,, micro,, grindle and white worm cultures are just a step up in the food chain , should be info on the web on how to do them ,, usually just time to master how to do them easily . No shotcuts here just practice

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## stoker

> Alternatively, do the 'dirty tank' method. Works for most tiny fry, including ANNs, _Pseudomugil_ species and most lampeyes.


 Now Ronnie you are going to have to explain what that is ,, shall we just say a well matured tank with a layer of MULM on the bottom


Mike

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## RonWill

> Now Ronnie you are going to have to explain what that is...


 eh Mike, you'd be the last person to need clarification as you know darn well what I meant  :Grin: 

Perhaps I should rephrase 'dirty' with 'messy' or 'guest unfriendly'... but of course a well matured tank (filled with mulm, detritus, floaters, green water and loads of micro organisms. per posts #75 & 76) sounds much nicer!

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## stoker

Hi Ronnie

Sorry couldn`t resist that

Thought that was what a fry tank should look like most of mine do but it`s not easy to find the little sods .


Take care Mike

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## RonWill

Heh Mike, you know I was jesting with 'ya and frankly, so long as I know the fry are doing ok and growing, I really don't mind not being able to find them. My eyesight ain't what it used to be and I'd be a happy camper to scoop out 'big sods' and transfer them to larger grow-out tanks.

For now, I'm quite pleased with my _Corydoras habrosus_'s first spawn and I've got 10 little buggers to feed. They're growing in a disgusting looking tank that would make most folks squirm. Not that I care... but heck, I know it works for me.

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## stoker

No problem Ronnie

Just couldn`t resist the comment ,, know what you mean about manky tanks , best way to do it 
I start out with a cleanish tank and by the time the not (hopefully) so little buggers can be found it`s well shall we say yuk.
Had a offer from NASA for the Mars mission for one of the tanks ha ha must be a new type of life in some of them  :Wink: 
Good on the cory`s I do the other one (pygmy) , just a few to start , plenty of java moss and let them get on with IT .
Spent 2 hours in the shed doing the fish, SJO`s feeding like pigs on earthworms now only trouble is what goes in one end comes out the other as **** , power filters are great things have to clean it out weekly.
Still messing about with Notho`s and cory`s . Was into Discus for a few years but got a live eventually  :Laughing: 

Take care 

Mike

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## Eric Yeo

Hi Ron, since you got your hands wet again with ANNs, what other killies are you keeping now?

Eric Yeo

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## RonWill

Eric, shall we say it's one killie too many??!!  :Laughing: 

Let's see... besides your prolific _Fp. nigeranus_ 'Innidere' and 2 line of ANNs, there's _Chromaphyosemion splendopleure_ 'Ekondo Titi' & _splendopleure_ 'Tiko' that came back to me from a killie-buddy.

Also caring for a group of young adult _Fundulopanchax mirabile moense_ 'Bator', _Fp kribianus_ CI-98 & _Fp sjoestedti_ 'Niger Delta'. Returned a group of young _Fp filamentosum_ 'Ikeja' because I was running out of space.

Then again, I'm a very contradictory person since I blur blur and now, also caring for a pair of _Austrofundulus leohoignei_... plus tubs of _Hypsolebias (Simpsonichthys) flammeus_ 'Nova Roma', _Hyp flagellatus_ 'Malhada NP 06/09' & _Austrolebias nigripinnis_ 'Sagastome'....

Didn't I already said it was one too many??!!  :Laughing: 

Oh ya... there's gonna be a sharing session at GC Shop. Topics covered in Part 2/2 includes preparation of spawning media, DIY spawning mops, etc on 31st March 2012 at 11am. Come lim kopi with me?

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## Eric Yeo

Wow! Ron, that many you are keeping. Beside Angelfish I'm still keeping the Fp. nigeranus 'Innidere' and ANNs.
Sorry, I can't come on 31 Mar 2012 to lim kopi with you, I got to go for Qing Ming at Choa Chu Kang. 

Eric Yeo

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