# Killies Import > Planted Tanks >  A series of Diana Walstad-styled setups

## RonWill

Hi folks,
I've just finished setting up a full-echi tank *[1]* (well, almost *[2]*) but ain't very satisfied with it... something seems to be missing.

Substrate is aquatic compost laid over with gravel and as with the earlier low-cube tank, there'll be no aeration, fertilization and piped CO², receiving only ambient lighting.

Tell me what you think while I let the tank cycle.


Gallery link is *here*.

*[1]* Echi-list;
_Echinodorus_ 'Rubin', _E. grandiflorus_, 'A-Flame', _E. martii_, _E. tenellus_, _E. uruguayensis_, _E. amazonicus_, _E. latifolius_ and two reddish hybrids. I'll try to fill up foreground with _E. quadricostatus_... another excuse to raid the plant farm!  :Rolling Eyes:  

*[2]* For lack of something tall and flowy like vals, I have two 'dunnowat' _Aponogeton_ plants in there until a suitable replacement is available.

----------


## Green Baron

Ronnie,
I like that piece of driftwood in your tank !

----------


## RonWill

That woodie is on T-loan from Kho and yup, it looks pretty good. Plenty of hiding space for pygmy corys too!

Gan, I can't help but feel that the setup looks pretty naked esp. on the right side, or perhaps I'm too used to having vals as a backdrop.

Anybody knows if there's an echi that's almost equivalent to vals? Maybe more 'Rubin' or _uruguayensis_?

----------


## aquaturbo

> Substrate is aquatic compost laid over with gravel and as with the earlier low-cube tank, there'll be no aeration, fertilization and piped CO², receiving only ambient lighting.


Hi Ronnie,

I don't know what type of aquatic compost you are using, but if the substrate is not rich enough and you are not dosing liquid fertilizer, after all the echinodorus has settled down, I think there might be a possibility of nutrient defficiency. Those echinodorus are heavy feeders.





> I'll try to fill up foreground with _E. quadricostatus_... another excuse to raid the plant farm!


Having E. tenellus and E. quadricostatus together as foreground plant is not a good idea, as when they are mixed, the foreground will look untidy. Unless you are deligent enough to make sure the runners do not cross path. 

The E. latifolius (which is the synonyms of E. bolivianus) will 'run' around like E. quadricostatus, though it will take a little while for the mother plant to build up enough energy to put out it's first runner. 

However, E. bolivanius can be kept as a solitary plant if the runners are pruned. It will grow to a bushy plant about 15cm tall.





> For lack of something tall and flowy like vals, I have two 'dunnowat' _Aponogeton_ plants in there until a suitable replacement is available.


Try E. berteroi. It has nice transparent delicate leaves like Aponogeton. 



Tan SW

----------


## aquaturbo

> Anybody knows if there's an echi that's almost equivalent to vals? Maybe more 'Rubin' or _uruguayensis_?


Or you can try E. angustifolius? Suppose to run around and grow like vals. 


Tan SW

----------


## RonWill

Hi SW, glad that you can chip in.

I'm using J.Arthur aquatic compost and will be using fertilizer sticks when the need arises. As the light level is low, compared to full-blown planted aquaria, I suspect that nutrient uptake is further slowed down by lack of CO2 fertilization. That ought to buy me some time.




> Having E. tenellus and E. quadricostatus together as foreground plant is not a good idea, as when they are mixed, the foreground will look untidy. Unless you are deligent enough to make sure the runners do not cross path


 I'm far from diligent but you have a point. The setup is suppose to be low-maintenance and no, I wouldn't want to chase down the runners.




> For lack of something tall and flowy like vals, I have two 'dunnowat' _Aponogeton_ plants in there until a suitable replacement is available.


Does the E. berteroi have short *leaf petoide (sp?)* or leaf stalk. I'd like to have a 'curtain' effect with the leaves starting close to the gravel.

*Edited: Jul 14th*
"*leaf petoide (sp?)*" should have been *petiole*, if I had bothered to check up on plant morphology
http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/201Ma...leaftypes.html

By botany terms, the petiole is defined as "the stalk by which a leaf is attached to a stem. Also called leafstalk".

... and plants ain't just about root, stem and leaf
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/bio/plant_...ems_and_leaves

So folks, now you now.

----------


## RonWill

SW, I checked on the _angustifolius_ at Tropica and it grows to a max of 30cm, which is still a little short.

Besides the frogbits, long leaves floating at the surface will provide security for killies and makes them less skittish... so they don't jump!

Since most of the light is radiated from the front and sides, I'm not concerned about light being cut off from the top. Any more suggestions?

----------


## FC

Ron,

The wood (nice!) and the Ech Rubin were the points of focus in your tank and rightly so. The rest of the plants (limit them to 3 types) you need is just to cover them green. Let them mature for a month or so before further change.

----------


## PeterGwee

Try to get more cheap plants in there...the plant mass seems pretty low to me. Fertilization for non-CO2 tanks are not necessary except for an occasional dosing of baking soda and seachem equilibrium every couple of months or so plus no water changes unless you decide to move the plants around. Balancing the critter loading vs plant load is the way to a well run non-CO2 tank.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

----------


## RonWill

Sze Wei,
E. tenellus and E. latifolius are interspersed in the mid/foreground. I'm not sure how the foliage will develop in my tank's condition but I'll see which leaf-form better compliments the overall look and will remove as needed.
----------------------------------------------

Freddy,
The focal points were the E. 'Aflame'*** (not 'Rubin') and the driftwood but I wasn't getting the desired result.

Swapped Kho's driftwood with Gan's piece that's soaking in my 4footer, added more plants and still that wasn't it.

Removed Gan's with one I have in the ANN tank and I'm beginning to like it. Experimenting with different 'supporting actors' was the key and now, I can let the setup mature.
----------------------------------------------

Peter,
Thanks for looking into this thread. I was hoping to hear from you as well.

I'm a fish-person, maintaining 'fish tanks with plants' as opposed to 'planted tank with fish', preferring to plant densely from the onset. Was bothered by the low plant-count but that was what I had at hand.

With more plants added and a change in driftwood, this is what it looks like this morning...

*Jul 11th*    *Jul 14th*

Closer views:
*Left side*   *Right Side*

You mention adding baking soda or seachem equilibrium... what purpose would that serve and based on your experience, how would you decide whether critter load/plant load is balanced?

*** The alleged _Echinodorus_ 'Aflame' was said to be a Tropica cultivar and it's a beautiful plant, having deep red (almost burgundy) color. Surprisingly, there's little information to be found on the Net. I would appreciate it very much if someone who's familiar with the 'Aflame' can share it with us.

*Echinodorus 'Aflame'* - new submerged leaves??

More pics at the *gallery*.

BTW, someone PM'ed saying that my tank (24"L x 12"W x 14"H) is smallish and short to accomodate so many echinodorus. I would agree with that but I'm still game to see how many echis would grow with it's foliage emersed (that would compensate for the lack of CO² fertilization) and go on to sprout flower stalks.

The setup still has a long way to go but it's progress would be interesting to observe.

----------


## TanVincent

Hi Ronn,

I would suggest Echinodorus Parviflorus "Tropica" (yes, that little cute plant you have emersed), to fill the middle ground slightly to the right and front fo the wood. As for flowy long leaf Echinodorus, you can try Echinodorus sp "Long Leaf". 

Pardon me from saying, isn't Echinodorus Aflame a little too scrawny and wrinkled to be a focal point? Personally I would do up the wood to be a focal point.

Last but not least, Echinodorus Rubin "narrow" will be a nice addition to your tank  :Smile: 

Cheers
Vincent

----------


## RonWill

Vincent,
The emersed _E. parviflorus_ "Tropica" is now residing in Kermit's home but have another (grown-submerged) sending out plantlets on flowering stalks. Your suggestion is noted and will do the transfer when the plantlets are stable (or the other echis aren't already overgrown). 

As for _Echinodorus_ sp "Long Leaf", I've never heard/seen one before. Any link or pics?

It's my first experience with the E. "Aflame" and already thankful if I didn't buy the wrong plant!  :Opps:  Hopefully, I've not gotten the foliage mixed up with _E. hormanii_ (Red) but in it's submerged form, doesn't it look like this? (I'm a 'fish-person', remember? :wink: )
 (Pic taken from my bro-in-law's tank)

On the brighter side, if the "Aflame" did end up looking "too scrawny and wrinkled", I'll console myself saying that it added some color contrast!  :Laughing:  




> Last but not least, Echinodorus Rubin "narrow" will be a nice addition to your tank


 I used to have that in my old setup and had that in mind for a nice backdrop instead of the regular broad-leaf. Teo's farm is out of it and as from what I understand, it's in short supply.

Any idea how or where can I get my hands on the Echi. sp "Long Leaf" and the "Rubin" Narrow?

----------


## stormhawk

Ron, on Tropica's site there is a plant called _Echinodorus_ "Red Flame". Could this be the Aflame echi you're talking about?

As for the Rubin narrow, you should try giving Karin at FEA a call. If I'm not wrong there was a new shipment of plants from Tropica. There might be a Rubin narrow in that shipment.

----------


## stormhawk

As for the long, flowy swordplant, why not try E. uruguayensis. From the pic on Tropica it does look pretty long and flowy. Grows up to 20-55+ cm.

----------


## RonWill

Jian Yang, Tropica's _Echinodorus_ "Red Flame" is a spottier cultivar from the "Ozelot", completely different (I believe) from the "Aflame". Lack of relevant info on the Net doesn't help with identification, of course.

As is, I've about 7 _E. uruguayensis_ in the Echi-Tank (former Mixed killie grow-out 'dump tank') and that's sufficient. Any more and I'll have to hunt for my fishes!!

----------


## TanVincent

Hi,

Ronn: I think I made a mistake. I thought E.sp Long leaf is suppose to be long and flowy, but it turns out that it looks quite rigid.

Image from http://www.israquarium.co.il

Jianyang: E.Aflame and E.red flame is 2 different plants.

Cheers
Vincent

----------


## PeterGwee

Ronnie, what's your main choice of critters for this tank? If you are not going to have bottom feeders, I just feel that the plant mass is simply too low.  :Laughing:  Make sure the entire ground is filled with plants...more and more plants. Don't hold back on that..it will set the tank in better and faster. As for the floating plants, 10-20% of the entire surface area would do it..you do not want too much of them as they are nutrient hogs and can block off alot of light. The main idea behind floating plants in non-CO2 tanks is act as an insurance in case you overfeed or so. They have plenty of CO2 to themselves and can be a big competitor to those submerse ones...so better keep them in check.

Regarding the dosing of baking soda and seachem equilibrium, they are mainly nutrients for the plants. Since you are not going to do water changes for a pretty long time and there might be a potential of stocking some plants which use bi-carbonate as a source of carbon. If that happens, you would get pretty nasty pH swings when the KH bottoms out. With respect to equilibrium, you may or might not want to use it depending on the situation (plants go after the Ca/Mg as plant nutrients..in a non-CO2 tank, water changes are almost non-existant and the fact that our tap water's GH isn't that high speaks of a potential need to dose it in order not for that nutrient to get bottom out. Just an insurance..your killies might not like the harder water though.  :Rolling Eyes:  ).

Last but not least, the balancing of the bioload vs plant load. Its difficult to tell how much critters to stock but do go with a light one..but not too light. With light stocking levels, you can overfeed slightly with no issues. One tell-tale sign of overstocking is an onset of an algae bloom or green water. Remember that pulsing of ammonia by the critters must not exceed the uptake threshold of the plants and bacteria in the tank or else you will get algae.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

----------


## whuntley

> snip...
> 
> Regarding the dosing of baking soda and seachem equilibrium, they are mainly nutrients for the plants. Since you are not going to do water changes for a pretty long time and there might be a potential of stocking some plants which use bi-carbonate as a source of carbon. If that happens, you would get pretty nasty pH swings when the KH bottoms out. With respect to equilibrium, you may or might not want to use it depending on the situation (plants go after the Ca/Mg as plant nutrients..in a non-CO2 tank, water changes are almost non-existant and the fact that our tap water's GH isn't that high speaks of a potential need to dose it in order not for that nutrient to get bottom out. Just an insurance..your killies might not like the harder water though.  ).
> snip...


Hi Peter,

What is the GH (and KH) of typical Singapore water? My only impression is from the relatively hard water that accompanies commercial shipments from there, and I would like to get a better feel for the true water conditions encountered by the list members around SG. From the messages here, I get the impression that most are still hung up on the old pH myths and rarely check the dissolved stuff that's actually important to plants and fish.

"Equilibrium" and baking soda are not just plant nutrients, by a long shot. All living things need proper electrolytes in their body fluids, and can die if they become deficient or get really out of balance. For example, adding salt to RO or distilled water can be like adding poison, for the cells need Ca and Mg and K for proper nutrient transport across the cell membranes that are trying to keep the soft water from diluting the blood electrolytes.

I learned this the hard way, when I moved from the SF bay area to Modesto. The water was essentially zero GH and KH and had a tds of about 30 ppm out of the tap. The high pH (10+) suggested most of the dissolved solids were as sodium silicate, so buffering was present but very very weak. Atmospheric CO2 quickly brought it down to a pH in the high 7s.

Folks in San Francisco and Alameda used to puzzle me when they said salt harmed their plants and killed their fish. They were getting the same Sierra snow-melt water as I was getting in Modesto, so yes, salt was toxic in pretty small amounts. [Many used Lonestar "Lapis Lustre" gravel, and that quickly fixed things, because it contained chips of raw sea shells.]

Killies usually love hard water, but some rainforest killies have adapted so well to really low tds that the slight hardening of the egg chorion, by Ca and Mg, keeps them from hatching properly. A few SA Annuals and quite a few W. African forest dwellers seem to have this problem. Fishes from the savannah and E. Africa may come from very soft water, but seem to do better in harder water, in captivity. If peat or other organic humins are added to their soft water, some rainforest fishes do much better because most of the harmful bacteria are killed at very low pH.

The soft water killies will still do OK in water that is at least a GH of 3 to 5 degrees. A KH of 4 or more gives the system a lot of stability. If your water is deficient, adding "Equilibrium" and baking soda can correct those respectively. When I lived in Fremont, my water was 300 ppm, out of the tap, and 200 ppm of that was as CaCO3 for a GH of about 11-12 degrees. I diluted it about 50/50 with RO water for the _Chromaphyosemions_ and other rainforest denizens whose eggs needed the softer water. I raised them, otherwise, in the hard tap water, carbon filtered to remove chloramine. [It was too tough to do water changes on 150 containers if I had to do too much mixing.]

I feel my (free, and worth it) advice can be much better, if you could give me a bit of solid information on the SG water. What is in it and how it varies from one district to another (if it does) would be most useful.

Thanks,

Wright

----------


## budak

See here for Singapore potable water analysis.

----------


## stormhawk

OT, Wright, I started a new thread in Killies Arena for further discussion on the elements found in local tapwater here in Singapore.

----------


## whuntley

Excellent Budak,

It had exactly what I wanted to see.

A few quick conclusions based on looking at the data.

You certainly need to use carbon filtering or one of the formaldehyde-like dechloraminators, to avoid a burst of nasty ammonium when doing water changes (if only old-fashioned hypo-based dechlorinators were used).

Your water is fairly soft compared to the US average water, so keep that in mind when reading killietalk. Some US areas, like the Sierras and upstate NY, do have very soft water, but they are not the rule.

You appear to have adequate hardness so that adding sodium (as salt) will not cause big problems. It can be useful in protecting against velvet and nitrite toxicity (Brown Blood Disease).

It is such nice water that I would want to start a fish farm, if I lived there.

 :Very Happy:  

Wright

----------


## PeterGwee

Wright, I am quite puzzled by your review of our tap water conditions. In my opinion, I don't see the need for carbon filtering other than a dechlorinator. Ain't we talking about stuff to use in planted tanks? Plants are the best equipment when it comes to removing ammonia...bacteria merely acts as a backup in case the plants do not remove it fast enough. Carbon isn't the best thing to add to a planted tank...it just ain't necessary from my point of view.  :Cool:  

Oh, I do agree with you that critters need minerals in water in order to grow and survive. Just that I am tackling ronnie's issues from a planted guys perspective.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

----------


## whuntley

> Wright, I am quite puzzled by your review of our tap water conditions. In my opinion, I don't see the need for carbon filtering other than a dechlorinator. Ain't we talking about stuff to use in planted tanks? Plants are the best equipment when it comes to removing ammonia...bacteria merely acts as a backup in case the plants do not remove it fast enough. Carbon isn't the best thing to add to a planted tank...it just ain't necessary from my point of view.  
> 
> 
> Regards
> Peter Gwee :wink:


Hi Peter,

I always keep some fish in any planted tank, and fish do not tolerate any ammonia above a few parts per billion. The damage is subtle and not always obvious.

The carbon filtration I suggested must _not_ be done in the tank. It is a slow in-line prefiltering of the tap water to get rid of chloramine safely. I prefer it to the dechloraminators because they tend to kill all inverts, including useful infusoria. They are really bad news if you are breeding killies, as they deprive the babies of the best of all first foods.

I almost never use carbon in a tank, even to remove dyes. It sequesters and releases stuff at the worst possible times, for me.  :Smile: 

Your water has so much nitrate (as ammonia) that the use of hypo (sodium thiosulfate) should never be considered if any fish are involved. That is the main ingredient in the old-fashioned dechlorinators (that "break the chlorine ammonia bond"). The ammonia burst may not bother your fish at first, but if pH is much above 7.5, they will get injured with every water change. Avoid such products if you want a disease-free fishroom.

Wright

----------


## RonWill

> Ronnie, what's your main choice of critters for this tank? If you are not going to have bottom feeders, I just feel that the plant mass is simply too low


Peter,
I'm undecided between 2 combined groups of killies with a 20~30 fish count and a 'standard compliment' of tankmates including (approximately) 4 pygmy Corys, 8 Cherry Shrimps, 2 otos and some ramhorn snails.




> Make sure the entire ground is filled with plants...more and more plants. Don't hold back on that..it will set the tank in better and faster.


 Echis are heavy root feeders and I suspect the smaller filler plants may not be able to compete. If the _E. tenellus_ and _latifolius_ grows slowly but steadily, I'm aiming at 40~60% substrate coverage, with a larger area cleared for dropping tubifex or where I place the bottom spawning mops.

Extensive plant coverage, IMHO, creates more 'dead-spots' than necessary or so dense where even cories wouldn't dare venture. I'm a heavy handed feeder and all cleaning/salvage-crew have to work doubly hard especially when the tank isn't aerated or filtered.




> As for the floating plants, 10-20% of the entire surface area would do it..you do not want too much of them as they are nutrient hogs and can block off alot of light. The main idea behind floating plants in non-CO2 tanks is act as an insurance in case you overfeed or so


 My lack of lower level plants is offset by 50~60% floater coverage, with the remaining surface covered by long leaves from _E. uruguayensis_, 'Rubin', etc. Reduced light level is not a major concern. Finding killie-crispies, however, is not acceptable.

I'm expecting the floater and foliage feeding to reduce nutrient excess in the water column, which in turn will minimize algae outbreaks (partial indulgment in wishful thinking).

Mentioned earlier, even though this's supposedly a DW-styled tank (but Diana doesn't breed killies), I'll suppliment substrate fertilizer sticks as needed. For the chemistry bit, I'll need a little more time to digest the details.




> Remember that pulsing of ammonia by the critters must not exceed the uptake threshold of the plants and bacteria in the tank or else you will get algae.


 Likewise, in a light bio-load setup, if the plant nutrient uptake is higher than what is provided, from the decomposition of fish poop, detritus, etc, symptoms of nutrient deficiency will also show in the foliage.

----------


## aquaturbo

> Does the E. berteroi have short [b]leaf petiole  or leaf stalk. I'd like to have a 'curtain' effect with the leaves starting close to the gravel.


I haven't grow the E. berteroi long enough to see all the variation of the plant. As documented, the E. berteroi is a very variable plant. So far it had grown long petiole and pointed leaves. After a replanted it, it is currently growing slender val like leaves with no petiole. Currently the height is about 20cm.




> SW, I checked on the angustifolius at Tropica and it grows to a max of 30cm, which is still a little short.


But if your 'curtain' is too thick, the others will suffer. And your tank is not that big anyway. Unless you want to prune it constantly. If that's really what you want, Rubin Narrow is the choice. Keong Seong at Havelock constantly stocks it. Well, it still will produce a certain length of petiole. My memory says it is about one third the total length of the leaf. 





> E. tenellus and E. latifolius are interspersed in the mid/foreground. I'm not sure how the foliage will develop in my tank's condition but I'll see which leaf-form better compliments the overall look and will remove as needed.


Prune away the runners of the E. bolivianus(aka E. latifolius) and let it become a solitary plant. It will be nice. It won't produce runner as fast as E. quadricostatus. Let the E. tenellue creep around it.


The plant you have is Aflame.



The plant in your brother-in-law tank is E. X barthii.



In the old Oriental's plant catalog, there was E. sp "Narrow leaf". In the new updated catalog, it is rename to Echi. sp "Long Leaf". Same plant. Have it, not really a big plant. Slow growing submersed. 





> Likewise, in a light bio-load setup, if the plant nutrient uptake is higher than what is provided, from the decomposition of fish poop, detritus, etc, symptoms of nutrient deficiency will also show in the foliage.


Yah, you might see Mg shortage soon in the foliage. 


Sze Wei

----------


## RonWill

> I haven't grow the E. berteroi long enough to see all the variation of the plant. As documented, the E. berteroi is a very variable plant. So far it had grown long petiole and pointed leaves. After a replanted it, it is currently growing slender val like leaves with no petiole. Currently the height is about 20cm


Thanks Sze Wei for the info. The Rubin is filling up the space nicely and I'm quite happy with the result so far. Think I'll leave the two _Aponogeton crispus_ in there and lay off fiddling with the setup, letting it mature slowly.




> Prune away the runners of the E. bolivianus(aka E. latifolius) and let it become a solitary plant. It will be nice. It won't produce runner as fast as E. quadricostatus. Let the E. tenellue creep around it


 The _latifolius_ is complimentary from Koah Fong (thanks!) and it'll take some time before it takes hold. I'll watch the progress and prune as you recommended.




> The plant in your brother-in-law tank is E. X barthii.


 Ah... seems like I've been looking for the wrong plant!  :Opps:  but it's so beautifully tempting especially when you say it a 'slow growing' echi :wink:

IIRC, Mg deficiency shows up as yellowing of older leaves. I believe what's in my 'toy box' is Magnesium sulphate... this will do, ya?

I'll be editing my original post's heading to better reflect a series of Diana Walstad-styled tanks, which aren't all-_echinodorus_, but based on what tickled my fancy at that point in time.

That said, this is the 3rd DW-styled tank based on a 24"L x 12"W x 18"H Nisso tank with curved front corners, from a turntable-spinning friend (thanks! Casey). It was completed on Sunday with 3 main plant group;
_Cyperus helferi_, _Blyxa aubertii_ and _B. japonica_. The 'supporting actors' are 2 pieces of driftwood that have been soaking at Eco-culture's tank (sorry to disappoint those who have been eyeing at it :wink: )


The rest of the pictures are at the *DW-gallery*.

Opinions and critique welcomed.

----------


## ruyle

Ronnie,
Have you planted any moss in your Walstad set-ups? I noticed on the Wet
Thumbs forum that Diana moderates, that she doesn't like using mosses
in her soil-based tanks. The Taiwan moss I got from KL (Thanks!) has been
doing so-so in the Walstad tank and is just now throwing out new growth
after looking brown-and-down in parts. Will be removing the brown parts
in a day or two, and tying the moss more securely to a lava rock.

Bill
farang9

----------


## Piscesgirl

Wright, can you explain to me the reason why declorinators will kill inverts? (I have well water without clorine/cloramines but I would like to know this for future reference as I keep shrimp).
Thanks!

----------


## whuntley

> Wright, can you explain to me the reason why declorinators will kill inverts? (I have well water without clorine/cloramines but I would like to know this for future reference as I keep shrimp). 
> Thanks!


Mach Fukada, of Hawaii, may have been the first to notice that "Amquel" tended to kill his Daphnia and Moina cultures. 

Subsequently, I have tested several modern dechloraminators, and found they all tend to kill small invertebrates. [I have even run out of formaldehyde and used "Amquel" to clear a tank of hydra.  :Smile: ] 

Different invertebrates show different resistance, but the smallest ones that we call "infusoria," like rotifers and paramecia are wiped out quickly by them. Shrimps may be fairly immune, IDK. Ostracods are much hardier than Daphnia in "Amquel." 

The ones I tested quite a bit include "Prime," "Ammo Lock 2." and "Amquel." 

After conversations with John F. Kuhns, the "Amquel" inventor, and subsequent reading, it appears all the dechloraminators,that can sequester the ammonium/ammonia, are similar to formaldehyde. It is a tanning agent that cross-links proteins and does a real number on smaller simpler animals. It's like the inverse of chlorine bleach, which tends to break them up or "digest" them. 

I still love it for use in shipping water, but otherwise I'm very careful to keep it away from my plants and fish, so a drop of "Liquifry No. 1" can produce an infusoria bloom whenever I need it. 

I notice the lively population of infusoria tends to keep my tanks much clearer, as they filter feed on free-floating bacteria and things like Euglena species that can cloud the water. 

Wright

----------


## ruyle

Wright,
Could you describe what's involved with your "multiple carbon filter" you
use in place of Amquel-type products? (Maybe this should be another thread)

Bill

----------


## Piscesgirl

Thank you Wright! 

I'm with Bill -- I would also like to know how to treat the water that has cloramines/clorine without the declorinator products. I'm sorry if this needs to go in another thread  :Opps:

----------


## whuntley

Bill and Deborah, 

When I was in chloraminated Fremont, I built a rig that filled my tap reservoir (a 40G food-safe plastic barrel). The main control was a swamp-cooler valve on the barrel that automatically kept it topped off. This is a simple float valve that costs about US$5 in dry country and is probably unheard of in SG, Huntsville, or NC.  :Smile:  

The filters were two carbon-block filters (sometimes called whole-house filters or "taste and odor") hooked in series. The cartridges were about 9" long and 2.5" in diameter. Flow rate was limited by a simple drip-irrigation ball valve, so the water trickled very slowly through the filters. 

I had a second outlet valve and short stub of 1/4" poly line, between the filters. That's where I tested for chlorine every month or so. Eventually, I would detect faint traces of chlorine (chloramine) between the filters as the first one saturated and started to "punch through." I then threw that cartridge away, and installed the nearly unused one from number two holder to the first one. A new filter cartridge then went into the second holder.to start the process over. 

Chlorine, chloramine and ammonia are only weakly grabbed by activated carbon, so water flow should be pretty slow to increase contact time and improve filter efficiency. Using two in series assured that I never let any chloramine get into my fish water, while still keeping most of the dissolved minerals that are essential for life. 

I had a second adjacent barrel collecting my RO water. I used a small waterfall pump, attached to 60' of 1/2" clear vinyl tubing that could reach every tank in the house. I just lifted the pump from one barrel to the other to get whatever amount of tap or RO water I need for a particular mixture. The pump was on a BSR X-10 remote switch, so I could turn it on from a remote controller, anywhere I was working. I did have to purge the 60' hose every time I used it, so I would not get the nasty plasticisers into my tanks in measurable quantities. 

Betta breeder, Lew Heifner, once put up a nice picture of a system patterned after mine, so I never did write it up. You may contact Lew at [email protected] and see if he still has a link to it, somewhere. 

Wright

----------


## ruyle

Thanks for the info, Wright. I emailed Lew for the link, if still available.
Sounds like this is a cheap and effective alternative to using chemicals,
which I would like to avoid. I have chlorinated water with fluoride in HSV, 
but if I ever live in "chloramine country" this is the way to go! :wink:

----------

