# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk >  2 more Aponogeton spp to ID

## Green Baron

=> 24 Aug 2004 : Added photo of seeds and plantlets

I have 2 Aponigeton which I am not sure of the IDs


The 1st one (bottom left) has semi transparent leaves and bulb. The mature leaves are 2ft long !



Any idea what is the ID ?

When I got the 2nd Aponogeton from Teo about 2 weeks back, it was about 10" tall and I thought the height was just about right for my tank. After I planted it and stick in a few fertiliser sticks, it shot to 2ft long ! The young leaves are purplish red in colour.


So far they have produced 5 stalks of flowers. 




The leaves are slightly brittle but I can't remember if it has rizome or bulb. Is this _A. rigidifolius_ ?

*Added on 24 Aug 2004*
- These are the seeds and not seed pods
 

- I came back fron an oversea trip only to find the seeds missing ! After seaching through the tank, I found plantlets growing everywhere - on driftwoods, gravels and some floating on the water surface !



*Added on 17 Sep 2004*
Aponogaton seed :

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## budak

The top one should be A. undulatus.... surest to ID is if it produces plantlets on long stalks ala Echinodorus. Supposedly a SEA/South Asia plant, but I have never seen or read any reliable biotope sightings in this region.

2nd one, your guess's as good as mine.

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## Green Baron

> The top one should be A. undulatus.... surest to ID is if it produces plantlets on long stalks ala Echinodorus.


Yes, I got the plant from a fellow forumer and I remember the plantlets growing on the stalks. However, the _A. undulatus_ in the Oriental Plant handbook has much broader leaves and I have also seen such _A._ in local planted tank. Which is the true _A. undulatus_ and which is a variety ?

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## budak

given its supposed broad range, I am sure there's several growth forms. I have seen in German books/mags narrow leaf forms, broad leaf, reddish etc..... but the main ID key is it viviparous propogation. Rather than planting it stand-alone, I find placing a group of plants in a grove produces a splendid effect.

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## Slaigar

Oy! Back to some more guessing! The first one certainly looks like _A. undulatus_. But as Mr. Budak has said, you will have to wait until it either flowers or sends plantlets on a stalk. Another species that has long, thin and slightly undulated leaves is A. robinsonii but that is a bit rare. 

The second one is a mystery to me. By just going by the 2-spiked inflorescence, I would say _A. ulvaceus_. But the leaves look too thin and barely undulate compared to what I have seen before.

_A. rigidifolius_ grows on rhyzome and has a single spiked flower.

The problems with identifying Aponogetons is that if they are not wild collected, chances are that they are a hybrid(mostly crossed with _A. natans_). And then, just like _Cryptocorynes_, they all vary quite a bit.

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## RonWill

Gan, your 1st _Aponogeton_ pic looks like what I have in my 'Echi-tank' and I'm guessing it's _A. crispus_ but I might be wrong.

I have even lesser idea what the 2nd one is, but.... I love the shape and patterns! If ever you find it too tall for your liking, just remember someone here like long floating leaves at the surface <hint hint  :Rolling Eyes:  >

Mark, it looks like 'Aponogeton guessing week'... should I go out and shop for more?  :Laughing:

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## Slaigar

> Mark, it looks like 'Aponogeton guessing week'... should I go out and shop for more?


 Only if you plan on sharing your green treasure, hehe. Otherwise you are going to drive me crazy and people will realize how little I know!




> [ Which is the true _A. undulatus_ and which is a variety ?


 Gan, I think that you are referring to cultivars. The plant you have may be the genuine species. However, the species tend to be varied among themselves. 

I will be honest that I do not know much about Aponogetons other than what I read in research of A. madagascariensis and _A. boivinianus_. Only a few species that I have seen stick out like sore thumbs while the rest of the species just look the same!

Once everywhile check the tuber in your aquarium. I have found that mine sink themselves deeper into the subtrate. An anareabic environment may cause it to rot.

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## RonWill

> Only if you plan on sharing your green treasure, hehe. Otherwise you are going to drive me crazy and people will realize how little I know!


You're too modest, Mark, but I feel there's a possibility for a killifish/plant swap... don't you think so? [The thought of having all those greens in your tank ought to be an incentive to work harder :wink: ]




> I will be honest that I do not know much about Aponogetons other than what I read in research of A. madagascariensis and _A. boivinianus_


 Having killed a good number of _A. madagascariensis_, I would have thrown in the towel if it doesn't work in the DW-tank. But grew it did and without all the fancy gadgets too!

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## Slaigar

> You're too modest, Mark, but I feel there's a possibility for a killifish/plant swap... don't you think so? [The thought of having all those greens in your tank ought to be an incentive to work harder :wink: ]


I am keeping that in mind! When searching for Killifish eggs, I looked for ones that were uncommon so later I would have something to share. I will post the species and pictures when the eggs start to hatch(still a month or two left) in another thread.

Back to the topic!
A weird fact from reading Kasselmann's book: there is also a live bearing form of _A. ulvaceus_. I am wondering why this form did not become popular. Maybe not much use to commercial growers, but hobbyists would be able to propagate it with ease (unless it was just not prolific). Just shows how much these vary.

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## Green Baron

Mark,
Thanks for helping with the ID. A few people have told me the 1st one is _A. undulatus_ and it does send out runners on a stalk so I will take this as the ID for now.




> Gan, I think that you are referring to cultivars. The plant you have may be the genuine species. However, the species tend to be varied among themselves.


Yes, I was referring to cultivars  :Opps:  




> I have even lesser idea what the 2nd one is, but.... I love the shape and patterns! If ever you find it too tall for your liking, just remember someone here like long floating leaves at the surface <hint hint  >


This is actually meant for my new 3ft tank and I am planting it in my 2ft holding tank. At the rate it is gorowing, I am sure I can spare you a few plants when I transfer them later ;-).


I am interested in _A. undulatus_ 'broadleaf', the one shown in Oriental handbook. Anybody has a spare plantlet to swap with my 'narrowleaf' ?

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## Slaigar

Gan,
Check with Au SL for another variety of _A. undulatus_:
http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=374

I have never seen a "broad leaf" variety but this one may be the closes to what I can imagine. The leaves look much wider and the plant is lower in height because the leaves bend down. If you look at the leaf, you can notice that the pattern of transparencies are very similar to the "narrow leaf" one you have.

If the _A. undulatus_ shoots out plantlets, I would be willing to trade for some. Just got to start digging around and look for something you guys don't have!

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## Green Baron

> Gan,
> Check with Au SL for another variety of _A. undulatus_:
> http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=374
> 
> I have never seen a "broad leaf" variety but this one may be the closes to what I can imagine. The leaves look much wider and the plant is lower in height because the leaves bend down. If you look at the leaf, you can notice that the pattern of transparencies are very similar to the "narrow leaf" one you have.


Yes, this is the one I am looking for ;-)




> If the _A. undulatus_ shoots out plantlets, I would be willing to trade for some. Just got to start digging around and look for something you guys don't have!


No problem.

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## confusekid

I have the broad leaf type but have to wait for quite a while for any plantlet to form. will let you guys know.

Jack

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## zmzfam

Gan,

I have the _Aponogeton undulatus_ where the leaf is 4-5cm broad. Is that the broad-leaf undulatus?

If so, I have a lot of plantlets.

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## green plant

Gan, 
I also got one similar planlet as the 1st one quite some time back. It grow to about 18" tall, then suddenly it vanished from the tank. Try to ID the plant but withno success. 

Then about a month ago , re-scape the tank and found one tuber/seed (oval shape). Do not know which plant it belong to, so just plant it. Out it come the same plant. I had read somewhere in the internet, this species, will suddenly die off ( take a rest) and re-grow again after the rest period.

No flowering, no runners ( may be didn't see it). The tuber/seed seems to be grown from the original planlet. 


Koh Heng.




> The 1st one (bottom left) has semi transparent leaves and bulb. The mature leaves are 2ft long !
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea what is the ID ?
> 
> When I got the 2nd Aponogeton from Teo about 2 weeks back, it was about 10" tall and I thought the height was just about right for my tank. After I planted it and stick in a few fertiliser sticks, it shot to 2ft long ! The young leaves are purplish red in colour.
> 
> 
> ...

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## Slaigar

_ Aponogeton undulatus_ is able to go through a dormancy stage within an aquarium. So if the leaves die off(and if the tuber is still alive), just leave if where it is- like how you treat a dormant _A. madagascariensis_.

Ah... there are so many _Aponogeton_ species that I would like to get my hands on. Hopefully _A. rigidifolius_ appears nearby sometime.

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## hobbit6003

Hi Gan,

Yeah, that's the same aponogeton that I got from Teo wks back, the one that I said had what look like barcode pattern running along the sides of its leaves. Teo told me that they were from Thailand.

Boy, and how have they grown after I gave them a shot of root monster fertiliser ball, like yours, the leaves are shooting up to the water surface already, and I guess they must be nearly 1 ft and a half long.

Cheers,

Kenny

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## RonWill

> Any idea what is the ID ?


Gan, I went down to Teo's again to look for your narrow 'whatchamacallit' _aponogeton_ and end up buying something similar. A closer view of the 'patterns' that Kenny & I call 'bar codes' [that's the kind of description one gets when two 'fish-person' goes plant-shopping :wink: ]
 
Although there are some similarity with the 1st pic, it isn't narrow  :Confused: 

I've planted them, together with the one you gave me, in the same tank and will do a comparison when it grows bigger.

Here's a pic of the rhizome (bulb?)

I checked with Teo himself and according to him, the suppliers received it from a 'wild-collection' and nobody's sure of what it is. Since it was from Thailand, it was temporary coined '_Aponogeton siamensis_'

I recall previously having an _aponogeton_ with undulated, rigid (plasticky) leaves, which I suspected may have been the _rigidifolius_. What I found today, although similar, was the _Aponogeton capuroni_, said to be from Africa.
 Other pics here.

Something else caught my attention and it was a group of emersed _Nuphar japonica_ with it's pretty yellow flowers. Although the prospect of digging into the 'organically fertilized' substrate wasn't too appetizing, I went ahead and grapple around to feel their rhizomes (oh boy... it was long, thick and hard  :Shocked:  ). Had to get one and here's a pic of it with submerged foilage.

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## Slaigar

Ron,
That would be a picture of a tuber. My mother is well into gardening and she taught me that bulbs are smooth(like _Crinum sp_) and tubers are hairy(like _Aponogeton sp. and Nymphaea sp._).

From checking Kasselmann's book, apparently identifing _A. undulatus_ is just as easy as checking if there are any pellucid markings(the barcode pattern of transparencies).

Nice find on the _A. capuroni_. It is the only plant I know of that has leaves that can literally crack in half.

About the new mystery Aponogeton: when it flowers, be sure to post a picture!

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## RonWill

Mark, thanks... but what then to differentiate tuber from rhizome? [or is it the same thing?] I'll update flower pics as and when they appear.




> Nice find on the _A. capuroni_. It is the only plant I know of that has leaves that can literally crack in half


 Don't quite get it. Is the fracture due to leaf stiffnes or ...?

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## Slaigar

Rhizomes are the thick, cylindrical structures that send out roots from them. Easily seen on mature specimens of _Anubias_, _Cryptocoryne_, _Echinodorus_, and Java ferns. If the plants are wild collected, the rhizomes can be absent because of the plants being ripped straight from the ground leaving the root system behind.

The stiff plastic leaves of_ A. capuroni_ have been known to crack when shipping specimens. Hope what I said before did not scare you, hehe. There should be no problem of them cracking in the aquarium  :Laughing:  .

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## RonWill

Mark, I did some shopping today (again  :Question:   :Exclamation:  ) and got the farm chaps to heat-seal pack 3 Apo bulbs to be later delivered to Lee Harper in the USA. There's 2x _ Aponogeton capuroni_  and 1x _A. madagascariensis_ which I believe should survive the trip.

Lee was very kind to send me some eggs of _Aphyolebias (Pterolebias) peruensis_ aka "Peruvian Longfin", and the thing with gifts is that it always leave me wanting to return the friendly gesture.

Goodwill *should* be reciprocated, not taken advantaged of, and it's definitely more fun and rewarding when things work out both ways.

Mr Harper is another geezer*** whom I hope will find the time to join us in the forum as well. [***in the most complimentary sense] Wright should know what I'm trying to convey... I call him a geezer too  :Rolling Eyes:  :wink:

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## Slaigar

Shopping again Ron? I think you may have a problem!  :Laughing:  

The _Aponogetons_ should easily survive the trip. As long as there is no rot in the tuber, you should be fine. You can easily check by squeezing the tuber/bulb and seeing if it is healthy. Then there is also the obvious smell of rot that will be present if the tuber is soft and mushy. I would check this if I suspect the tubers have been buried while at the LFS.

Ron, you have reignited my passion for _Aponogetons_. I purchased some African species off Aquabid and cannot wait until they arrive! _A. boivinianus_ is one I was looking for a long time and finally found it for a fair price. I will post pictures when they arrive.

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## RonWill

> Shopping again Ron? I think you may have a problem!


 Yea Mark, blame that on my friends!  :Laughing:  Since the new plants are for someone else, this shopping trip doesn't count! [Perhaps I should have said I bought some _Apistogrammas_!]

The bulbs are very firm to a gentle squeeze without unpleasant odor, so these should be fine.

BTW, I can't be held responsible for any rekindled passion (including old flames, ya?) but shall wait for the pics.

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## Green Baron

Update on the unidentified Aponogaton :
=> I transplated them to the 3ft tank. They are really long !



=>Seeds : I thought these are seed pods but they turn out to be individual seeds !
 

=> I came back from an oversea trip only to find the seeds missing ! After seaching through the tank, I found plantlets growing everywhere- on driftwoods, gravels and some even floating on the water surface !

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## hobbit6003

Gan,

Yeah, they can grow very long. I just remove one leave stalk, and it measured almost 3.5ft, from base of the stalk to leave tip!

Well, I just saw what seems to be a flower stalk growing out, so hopefully I can see some seeds developing...

Cheers,

Kenny

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## Green Baron

> Gan,
> Yeah, they can grow very long. I just remove one leave stalk, and it measured almost 3.5ft, from base of the stalk to leave tip!


3.5ft  :Shocked:  That is very long ! For me, the plant started to flower and grow very long after I inserted a few fertiliser sticks. I have transplanted them to a bigger tank and I decided not to use fertililiser sticks so that they will remain <2ft long.




```
Well, I just saw what seems to be a flower stalk growing out, so hopefully I can see some seeds developing...
```

Good luck ! You need to manually pollinate them if you want seeds. Just brush the flower stocks against each other will do the trick.

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## hobbit6003

Thanks Gan for the pointer!

Haha, they got root-monstered by me too, guess that's why they appear such!

Cheers,

Kenny

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## hobbit6003

Gan,

THe 'flower stalk' that I mentioned, do not seem to appear like a typical one associated with aponogetons.

In fact, what I saw at the end of the stalk, is that another couple of small leaves growing out at the tip, much like a little vegetative plantlet of the mother plant.

Does any of yours have the same presentation?

Cheers,

Kenny

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## Slaigar

Kenny,
That is the "flower stalk" of A. undulatus. It is one of the only _Aponogetons_ that than send out plantlets on stalks. Congratulations!

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## Green Baron

> Gan,
> 
> THe 'flower stalk' that I mentioned, do not seem to appear like a typical one associated with aponogetons.
> 
> In fact, what I saw at the end of the stalk, is that another couple of small leaves growing out at the tip, much like a little vegetative plantlet of the mother plant.
> 
> Does any of yours have the same presentation?


Kenny,
This one (_A. undulatus,_)
[img][450:350]http://www.killies.com/forum/albums/aponogaton/Aponogeton2.jpg[/img] sends out plantlets.

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## hobbit6003

Hi Gan, 

Yup, this is the one!

It looks like a tiny plantlet at the end of the stalk. However, it doesn't seem to be developing roots, only the shoots.

Cheers,

Kenny

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## zmzfam

Kenny,

If the plantlet is out of the water, it will not develop roots. Submerged the plantlet and it wil grow the immersed leaves and roots. You have to be patient though  :Very Happy:

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## hobbit6003

Thanks Zul,

The plantlets are submersed, I guess patience is the key.

Cheers,

Kenny

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## Green Baron

I finally saw how the seed sheds its 'skin'.



1- This is how the seed looks like just before it dislodge from the seed stalk.
2,3 - The outer skin unfolds the green seed floats on the water surface.
4. After a few hours, another layer of skin peels off and the seed sinks to the bottom.
5. A single leaf grows out from the seed.

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## Slaigar

Very nice photo of the various stages of the seeds, Gan! Keep us informed  :Very Happy:  . I am especially curious on how long it takes to develop into a mature plant.

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## Green Baron

> Very nice photo of the various stages of the seeds, Gan! Keep us informed  . I am especially curious on how long it takes to develop into a mature plant.


It grows very fast. In fact it is growing too big for my 2 feet moss tank. In fact I have to keep trimming the leave to prevent it from covering the whole tank ! This plant is giving out a flower stalk every week ! I think I may have to give it away :-( The plantlets grows very fast as well. I have given away quite a few plantlets and will be sending some seeds overseas.


Drop me a note if any of you are interested in this Aponogaton sp.

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