# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Invertebrates >  Of Colors & Grading in CRS

## Navanod

Hi fellow shrimp enthusiasts,

I would like to consult everyone on the current grading system for colors based grading for Caridina cantonensis (ie. CRS, BDS, PRL, PBL, BKK, WR, BB and even golden and snowwhite).

In particular, I think this is very relevant to the pure lines since for some strange reasons, they're being graded for colors but I still hear pattern grading terms (eg. SS grade) being used.
This is confusing to me.

Before anyone ask if I have an agenda, yes. I'm trying to work out a color grading system that we can perhaps reference locally. But to do so, I need to know if an international standard currently exist. My limited googling failed to turn anything up, maybe because the details may be in mandarin or japanese.

With that being said, please be objective and do not bring the "purity" discussion into this thread, we've had more than enough threads for those.
Go with purely what meets the eyes. A super solid colored CRS can have golden genes, which may impact it's worth, but a grading system should just be focused on the main criteria, the phenotype colors.
Also, please try to provide links or source of any existing grading systems instead of just saying "this super famous renowned breeder in Siberia said blar blar".

Thanks in advance

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## cheetf

Hahaha good luck. I think i will hang out here in your thread since mine became a witch hunt.

But how do you quantify whiteness?

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## eviltrain

this are taken from Green Chapter site 



*BENIBACHI CRS (Mix Band バンドミックス)* : 20 gold coin

*BENIBACHI CRS (Band S / バンド　S)* :38 gold coin


*BENIBACHI CRS (日の丸 A) :* 75 gold coin



*BENIBACHI CRS (MOSURA A / モスラA)* : 140 gold coin 



*BENIBACHI CRS (日の丸 S)* :150 gold coin



*BENIBACHI CRS (MOSURA S / モスラS)* : 260 gold coin

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## Navanod

> Hahaha good luck. I think i will hang out here in your thread since mine became a witch hunt.
> 
> But how do you quantify whiteness?


The same as we quantify red and black. Overall.
The pattern grading should account for the amount of whiteness relative to red/black. The color grading would account for the quality of whiteness, how solid it is.




> this are taken from Green Chapter site


Thank bro, but erm, no offence to GC, the names are mainly pattern related grading terms.

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## silane

> The same as we quantify red and black. Overall.
> The pattern grading should account for the amount of whiteness relative to red/black. The color grading would account for the quality of whiteness, how solid it is.



Quantify color and making a grading system base on color is hard, not many has good sense of color, good tools to use.

However, a guide for choosing good PRL can be made based on what to look out for on a PRL, its features what is desirable feature, what is not.

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## cheetf

Problem with white is, many factors can influence the intensity. Lighting, water, stress,....

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## Ecalyte

I think the way the taiwanese do it is really good.

They will name out the pattern in chinese, but use the A/S, S, SS, SSS as grading of the thickness of white.

So basically if you say something like.. A/S Hino.. it means that the thickness of white is not very good. If you say something like SSS Hino, it means that the white is show-quality. In Taiwan, SS grade shrimps are around 1000-2000NTD depending on lineage and source. However the jump in price from SS to SSS is huge. You can expect to pay 10,000 to as much as 30,000 NTD for an SSS grade shrimp from Taiwan.

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## silane

Yes, water is a big factor. I ever met a case of a Japanese breeder keeping his shrimps at ph 6.9 and TDS at 400ppm, I tested his water and discovered these, I told him I do not expect a good breeder to use such water parameter to condition his shrimps before sales to push out color. But that is only 1 single case out of many purchases I made, generally, Japaneses are good breeders striving to produce good shrimps.

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## Navanod

> Quantify color and making a grading system base on color is hard, not many has good sense of color, good tools to use.
> 
> However, a guide for choosing good PRL can be made based on what to look out for on a PRL, its features what is desirable feature, what is not.


That's my aim of this thread. With your great experience, have you seen any credible attempts at grading the colors yet?




> Problem with white is, many factors can influence the intensity. Lighting, water, stress,....


This issue affects all shrimps, and all colors, not just whites on Caridina. Lets assume that we're talking the best colors under good conditions in the breeder's tank?




> I think the way the taiwanese do it is really good.
> 
> They will name out the pattern in chinese, but use the A/S, S, SS, SSS as grading of the thickness of white.
> 
> So basically if you say something like.. A/S Hino.. it means that the thickness of white is not very good. If you say something like SSS Hino, it means that the white is show-quality. In Taiwan, SS grade shrimps are around 1000-2000NTD depending on lineage and source. However the jump in price from SS to SSS is huge. You can expect to pay 10,000 to as much as 30,000 NTD for an SSS grade shrimp from Taiwan.


Thank you for your input bro.
However, this is exactly whats confusing to me. Using pattern grading terms interchangeably for colors.
Also, is there a clear definition on what qualifies for SS color and SSS color? One person's SS may be another's SSS.

I'm trying to search but everything is in mandarin. On top of that, the Taiwanese have a wicked sense of humor and tends to type chinese characters when speaking in Mĭn Nán dialect.

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## cheetf

Problem is, for many shrimps we have not established what a 'good' condition standard is yet. Without a constant results are meaningless. Just like the white balance of digital cameras. Unless you have calibrated it, photos will come out with colours far from what you should see. 

Logically, there should be a level playing field so that we can grade the shrimp based on the shrimp itself and not based on the conditions that influence he shrimp. So in theory, to get a better picture, each grading should be done together with the water parameters given. Hence, the 'in theory part'.

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## Ecalyte

I think if you're someone active in the hobby there, you will know what is SS and SSS. Like I mentioned before, SSS grade shrimps in Taiwan are show quality.

This shrimp won the coolshrimp competition just a few weeks ago.. this would be a definition of SSS grade.


*_Taken from coolshrimp-auction website_

SS Grade whiteness is probably the ones that we hobbyist in Singapore see from our local PRL breeders, maybe not even that. Could be the ones we have are merely S grade. What I can say with great confidence is that our local hobbyist are not exposed to the SSS grade shrimp. I can count with the fingers in one hand the number of people who owns / have access to these shrimps. Those breeders who THINK they do and paid $200-300 for them.. think again. You will never be able to buy show quality shrimps for under $800. All you have to do is compare your shrimp with the picture I posted.

In terms of the highest of grades, you get what you pay for. You'll never be able to get a brand new Alien Ware for under $1,000.. nor will you be able to get a brand new Mercedes for under $50,000. Likewise in the shrimp world.. it just doesn't happen. Unless you're sleeping with the breeder I suppose... even then you're kinda paying for the shrimp :P

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## Navanod

> Problem is, for many shrimps we have not established what a 'good' condition standard is yet. Without a constant results are meaningless. Just like the white balance of digital cameras. Unless you have calibrated it, photos will come out with colours far from what you should see. 
> 
> Logically, there should be a level playing field so that we can grade the shrimp based on the shrimp itself and not based on the conditions that influence he shrimp. So in theory, to get a better picture, each grading should be done together with the water parameters given. Hence, the 'in theory part'.


Hence the "what meets the eye" assessment methods which is similar to what's being done now anyway.
Buyers will assess purely by what they see. Too bad if a seller have a solid shrimp that looks faded because his tank's condition is not as ideal. The grading will be purely based on the colors of the shrimp at the time of assessment, regardless of conditions or how nice the shrimp may in theory look if placed in "ideal" conditions.
This will also push for buyers to demand to see the shrimps in their home tanks, instead of looking at faded shrimps in bags and being promised that they'll "color up" later.
Lets set the basis for grading first, then worry about what people can do with photoshops to try and cheat the system

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## Navanod

> I think if you're someone active in the hobby there, you will know what is SS and SSS. Like I mentioned before, SSS grade shrimps in Taiwan are show quality.
> 
> This shrimp won the coolshrimp competition just a few weeks ago.. this would be a definition of SSS grade.
> 
> 
> *_Taken from coolshrimp-auction website_
> 
> SS Grade whiteness is probably the ones that we hobbyist in Singapore see from our local PRL breeders, maybe not even that. Could be the ones we have are merely S grade. What I can say with great confidence is that our local hobbyist are not exposed to the SSS grade shrimp. I can count with the fingers in one hand the number of people who owns / have access to these shrimps. Those breeders who THINK they do and paid $200-300 for them.. think again. You will never be able to buy show quality shrimps for under $800. All you have to do is compare your shrimp with the picture I posted.
> 
> In terms of the highest of grades, you get what you pay for. You'll never be able to get a brand new Alien Ware for under $1,000.. nor will you be able to get a brand new Mercedes for under $50,000. Likewise in the shrimp world.. it just doesn't happen. Unless you're sleeping with the breeder I suppose... even then you're kinda paying for the shrimp :P


Excellent work bro. I'll borrow this image as an example?
I'm sure I can provide clearer definitions based on this picture and other lower grades. The aim is to remove all ambiguities.

Also, I must request for everyone to please not bring costs and values into the discussion at this point, although the part about what grades are available locally is interesting.

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## Ecalyte

> Problem is, for many shrimps we have not established what a 'good' condition standard is yet. Without a constant results are meaningless. Just like the white balance of digital cameras. Unless you have calibrated it, photos will come out with colours far from what you should see. 
> 
> Logically, there should be a level playing field so that we can grade the shrimp based on the shrimp itself and not based on the conditions that influence he shrimp. So in theory, to get a better picture, each grading should be done together with the water parameters given. Hence, the 'in theory part'.


On the topic of ideal water condition, I am a big believer of conditioning. I believe that if your water parameters are within a certain range within the species requirement, special care and conditioning can bring it back up near to its maximum potential. But I think that the maximum potential will only be achieved if you can exactly replicate the conditions that they were born in. Like in fish, how are the locally available entry-level Apistogrammas (Cacatuoides, Agassizii) so hardy.. because they've been bred in waters that are more akin to our tap water. Of course this is opening another big pandora's box because some of these fish may be hardy, but will still only colour up when given conditions closer to their wild home. 

CRS however, don't have a wild home. Their ancestors currently living there are so distantly related... it's like a 10th cousin or something :P Almost not blood related. So, where is this 'wild home' that CRS come from? The breeders tank? I think right now we can't really take this into consideration since we're only talking about how to grade a shrimp. Of course, it will have to be graded at their most prime. Who in their right mind will under-grade their lifestock haha! 




> Hence the "what meets the eye" assessment methods which is similar to what's being done now anyway.
> Buyers will assess purely by what they see. Too bad if a seller have a solid shrimp that looks faded because his tank's condition is not as ideal. The grading will be purely based on the colors of the shrimp at the time of assessment, regardless of conditions or how nice the shrimp may in theory look if placed in "ideal" conditions.
> This will also push for buyers to demand to see the shrimps in their home tanks, instead of looking at faded shrimps in bags and being promised that they'll "color up" later.
> Lets set the basis for grading first, then worry about what people can do with photoshops to try and cheat the system


I am a strong supporter of the way the Taiwanese have done it, something like the way the Germans have done it with their K-system. Do away with the coding of patterns. To avoid confusion, have the patterns named out: Banded, V-Band, Tiger tooth, Hino, Mosura, Crownhead, Flowerhead. From there we can devise an easy system of determining colour codes. To avoid confusion.. we have to no longer use the A, S, SS, SSS system. Even now people are using it wrong. Some refer to Mosura grade as SSS, some refer to Hinos with very little red as SSS. So our current grading system is really crazily broken.

So I propose an adaptation of the Taiwanese system, with a mix of the K-system that the Germans use..

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## Ecalyte

> Excellent work bro. I'll borrow this image as an example?
> I'm sure I can provide clearer definitions based on this picture and other lower grades. The aim is to remove all ambiguities.
> 
> Also, I must request for everyone to please not bring costs and values into the discussion at this point, although the part about what grades are available locally is interesting.


Sure, it's not mine anyway.. haha!

I think discussing the costing will bring up a very heated debate further down the discussion but it's something we really can't run away from eventually.. One step at a time, we try to iron out our very own AQ CRS grading guide and see if it will be adopted readily. Maybe once we have it ironed out, we can propose to Silane to help promote it, since he has international standing on this matter and can help push this out for us.

Here's another picture from the coolshrimp auction.. This is another PRL lineage that's been personalised by a Taiwanese breeder.


_*Taken from coolshrimp-auction website_

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## silane

I think no need to pursue pattern based CRS grading, just a matter of time, CRS will be only 1 grade. There is a sign of grade compression for CRS in overseas.


However, for PRL, there is need to have some form of guide. I am not sure how that can get everyone to agree on it, as there are too many factors to consider let say on white, its thickness, have crack and temperature of whiteness. What disturbing is, a shrimp appear on photo can be look different in a tank especially the factor, whiteness.

Ecalyte suggestion on color.pattern is a good base to implement the system.

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## silane

> I think discussing the costing will bring up a very heated debate further down the discussion but it's something we really can't run away from eventually.. One step at a time, we try to iron out our very own AQ CRS grading guide and see if it will be adopted readily. Maybe once we have it ironed out, we can propose to Silane to help promote it, since he has international standing on this matter and can help push this out for us.


Germans are working on naming and grading guides international use, I am invited to go for a discussion in Germany. I am sure any form of guide or standard we formulate here will be useful or adopt for international use.

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## cheetf

> On the topic of ideal water condition, I am a big believer of conditioning. I believe that if your water parameters are within a certain range within the species requirement, special care and conditioning can bring it back up near to its maximum potential. But I think that the maximum potential will only be achieved if you can exactly replicate the conditions that they were born in. Like in fish, how are the locally available entry-level Apistogrammas (Cacatuoides, Agassizii) so hardy.. because they've been bred in waters that are more akin to our tap water. Of course this is opening another big pandora's box because some of these fish may be hardy, but will still only colour up when given conditions closer to their wild home. 
> 
> CRS however, don't have a wild home. Their ancestors currently living there are so distantly related... it's like a 10th cousin or something :P Almost not blood related. So, where is this 'wild home' that CRS come from? The breeders tank? I think right now we can't really take this into consideration since we're only talking about how to grade a shrimp. Of course, it will have to be graded at their most prime. Who in their right mind will under-grade their lifestock haha!


I am not saying do not do water conditioning. What I am saying is when a shrimp is graded, it should come with information of what it is kept in at that point in time. So that if we get 2 grades of shrimp in the same water parameters you can tell them apart.

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## Ecalyte

> I am not saying do not do water conditioning. What I am saying is when a shrimp is graded, it should come with information of what it is kept in at that point in time. So that if we get 2 grades of shrimp in the same water parameters you can tell them apart.


Well of course! I mean isn't that how it's done now anyway? Like most people will just say what their tank parameters are. But even then you may not be able to trust them if they are holding out on some secret? haha.. Like there is a common unspoken truth that breeders in Taiwan will mix the packing bag with their tank water and distilled water. This is to hide their actual TDS value of their tank.. One of my Taiwanese friends shared this secret with me, but.. I cannot be confident of its factual truth. All I can say is that I trust my friend.. hehe

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## cheetf

Sigh, sad but true. Patterns we can quantify but colour and whiteness........

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## silane

> Well of course! I mean isn't that how it's done now anyway? Like most people will just say what their tank parameters are. But even then you may not be able to trust them if they are holding out on some secret? haha.. Like there is a common unspoken truth that breeders in Taiwan will mix the packing bag with their tank water and distilled water. This is to hide their actual TDS value of their tank.. One of my Taiwanese friends shared this secret with me, but.. I cannot be confident of its factual truth. All I can say is that I trust my friend.. hehe



Look at #8. Should I say that Jap was being honest.  :Very Happy:

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## newlife

Shrimp do look different in picture comparing looking at real eyes...
I'm in line learning and studying LCD & LCD display screen...Humans eyes has different tone in viewing of coloration... Red,Green,blue,white and black is the common ones...
Angle viewing might also affect the color...this apply to photo taking at different angle...

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## Navanod

> I think no need to pursue pattern based CRS grading, just a matter of time, CRS will be only 1 grade. There is a sign of grade compression for CRS in overseas.
> 
> 
> However, for PRL, there is need to have some form of guide. I am not sure how that can get everyone to agree on it, as there are too many factors to consider let say on white, its thickness, have crack and temperature of whiteness. What disturbing is, a shrimp appear on photo can be look different in a tank especially the factor, whiteness.
> 
> Ecalyte suggestion on color.pattern is a good base to implement the system.


I'll attempt to tackle the grading for white, its thickness, have crack and temperature of whiteness. Also, the legs, and even the antennae!




> Germans are working on naming and grading guides international use, I am invited to go for a discussion in Germany. I am sure any form of guide or standard we formulate here will be useful or adopt for international use.


I'm thinking of retaining the existing pattern grading, no point reinventing the wheel. Instead, Eviltrain suggested sometime back to attach a symbol after the pattern grading to denote color grades.
SS++ or S-- for example




> I am not saying do not do water conditioning. What I am saying is when a shrimp is graded, it should come with information of what it is kept in at that point in time. So that if we get 2 grades of shrimp in the same water parameters you can tell them apart.


Precisely! If we get 2 grades of shrimp in the same water parameters we must be able to tell them apart.




> Well of course! I mean isn't that how it's done now anyway? Like most people will just say what their tank parameters are. But even then you may not be able to trust them if they are holding out on some secret? haha.. Like there is a common unspoken truth that breeders in Taiwan will mix the packing bag with their tank water and distilled water. This is to hide their actual TDS value of their tank.. One of my Taiwanese friends shared this secret with me, but.. I cannot be confident of its factual truth. All I can say is that I trust my friend.. hehe


It is beyond the scope of this discussion and beyond our powers to deal with secretive breeders in this case. What we're trying to deal with, are breeders who make use of the lack of a clear grading system to market their shrimps at a higher grade.

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## gryphon

In my opinion, there is pattern, color and whiteness. 
We can grade like diamonds which breaks down the many categeories of importance. E.g. 3 'P's
*Pattern*: Flowerhead, crownhead, mosura, Hino, tigertooth etc
*Purity* (thickness of white): A-E 
*Pigmentation* (Color):1-5 

Ecylate example could be graded as: Hino A1

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## cheetf

Someone showed me a draft of his very-evil local grading system

C - Cannot make it
B - Better a bit
A - Ace
S - Soild
SS - Solid shrimp
SSS - Super solid shrimp

but I feel it sould be S - solid SS - sibei solid SSS super sibei solid

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## eviltrain

Haha. Looks so familiar~~~ 

Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)

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## cheetf

Maybe because it's your draft? Hahahha

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## cheetf

> In my opinion, there is pattern, color and whiteness. 
> We can grade like diamonds which breaks down the many categeories of importance. E.g. 3 'P's
> *Pattern*: Flowerhead, crownhead, mosura, Hino, tigertooth etc
> *Purity* (thickness of white): A-E 
> *Pigmentation* (Color):1-5 
> 
> Ecylate example could be graded as: Hino A1


From my screen it looks like Hino A2 because the white is a bit yellowish

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## Navanod

Looks like we already have a system going here! Haha!!

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## avex30

> Haha. Looks so familiar~~~ 
> 
> Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)


You never buy copyright hahaha

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## eviltrain

no need copyright la. i always share one  :Very Happy:

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## Navanod

> In my opinion, there is pattern, color and whiteness. 
> We can grade like diamonds which breaks down the many categeories of importance. E.g. 3 'P's
> *Pattern*: Flowerhead, crownhead, mosura, Hino, tigertooth etc
> *Purity* (thickness of white): A-E 
> *Pigmentation* (Color):1-5 
> 
> Ecylate example could be graded as: Hino A1


IMHO, color grading should take into account both white and pigments. Trying to separately assess them is quite difficult and introduces one more parameter that will make it confusing to compare.
Further, poor white normally impacts pigments and vice versa. I'm going to leave the pattern grading alone for the purpose of this thread. People can choose to call their shrimp's pattern by name or by letter grading or even the german's K ratings

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## gryphon

> IMHO, color grading should take into account both white and pigments. Trying to separately assess them is quite difficult and introduces one more parameter that will make it confusing to compare.
> Further, poor white normally impacts pigments and vice versa. I'm going to leave the pattern grading alone for the purpose of this thread. People can choose to call their shrimp's pattern by name or by letter grading or even the german's K ratings


Cos I come across shrimps with very nice whites but the red is like maroon or brown

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## Navanod

Ok folks, I've shamelessly gathered a whole bunch of photos from the net and will attempt to use them as example for grading. I do not claim ownership of any of these pictures and the owners may contact me to remove them if they have an issue. Note that I will also not do any editing to these pictures, any watermarks or white balance will be entirely left as it is.

Firstly, a picture of the anatomy so we are all on the same page when talking about body parts


I shall start with the top grade, best of the best color grade. Forgive me for being arbitrary at this point in assigning a simple "Grade 1" to this grade.
This grade is possibly almost impossible to attain and almost all my examples are from Yuken of Taiwan. White balance or poor resolution may account for why they looked so perfect in these pictures, but please assume that they're real for the purpose of this discussion.





Grade 1 characteristics:
- Fully colored, without any cracks or gaps, including antennule, rostrum, maxillipeds & pereopods. Pleopods colors are a plus but not critical. Slight translucency at the tip of antennule, maxillipeds or pereopods can be tolerated.
- Rostrum, carapace, abdomen and tail must be solid colored and opaque enough to hide the saddle, guts and any eggs.
- Any pigmented patterns must be clear and well defined from the white, without any spillovers or "fade in fade out" effects.
- Any "yellowing" or "browning" of more than 10% of the white is considered spillover of red and black pigments and will fail grade 1.
- Overly transparent pigments of red or black will also fail this grade.

I don't think one can find any faults with the colors on this grade except at the tip of the extremities. Any comments and views are welcomed

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## eviltrain

how about point systems? as in more points the higher colour grade? 

then with this "points" we add to existing pattern grading system

example the shrimp shown 



will be a (maxpoint)SS HINO

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## Navanod

> how about point systems? as in more points the higher colour grade? 
> 
> then with this "points" we add to existing pattern grading system
> 
> example the shrimp shown 
> 
> 
> 
> will be a (maxpoint)SS HINO


Intriguing perspective bro.

Assuming a max of 10 points:

Peripheral colors:
Full colored legs/pereopods - 1pt
Full colored antennule - 1pt
Full colored maxillipeds - 1pt
Any translucency or half colored in the above will score 1/2 points.

Definition of colors:
Clearly defined red/black pigments against the white - 2 pts
Slight "overspill" from pigmented areas - 1 pt

Purity of white areas:
90-100% pure bright white - 2 pts
Only slight tint of yellow/brown - 1 pt

Coverage of body (Rostrum, carapace, abdomen and tail):
100% no cracks and gap, opaque and solid colors - 2 pts
No obvious cracks and gap, not opaque - 1 pts

Intensity of pigmented colored (red/black):
Solid red or black colors (not translucent, orange or brown) - 1 pt

I cooked this up entirely within 15 minutes so it's probably rubbish. Just to get a feel of how this grading will be like. Any comments?

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## Navanod

After some thoughts, this color system is difficult to "balance". I foresee some ugly shrimps actually scoring rather decently...hahaha!
The progressive nature of how a shrimp's color improves may be a double edged blade. What do I mean?
For example, most shrimps will not have colored peripherals unless their bodies are already nice and solid. So that's good, we'll likely not good a high point shrimp with fully colored legs and claws, but horrible body colors.
But color purity, definitions and intensity are all interlinked. So we may get a grading system where we don't see a bell curve but only high end and low end shrimps

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## eviltrain

hehe, lets put the system into test


from http://www.mr-krabs.de/blog/angebote/3257_3257

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## Navanod

> hehe, lets put the system into test
> 
> 
> from http://www.mr-krabs.de/blog/angebote/3257_3257


Peripheral colors: 0.5pt for antennule
Full colored legs/pereopods - 1pt
Full colored antennule - 1pt
Full colored maxillipeds - 1pt
Any translucency or half colored in the above will score 1/2 points.

Definition of colors: 0pt, serious overspill
Clearly defined red/black pigments against the white - 2 pts
Slight "overspill" from pigmented areas - 1 pt

Purity of white areas: 0 pt, what little white is obviously tinted
90-100% pure bright white - 2 pts
Only slight tint of yellow/brown - 1 pt

Coverage of body (Rostrum, carapace, abdomen and tail): 0 pt, plenty of cracks, even the rostrum is totally colorless
100% no cracks and gap, opaque and solid colors - 2 pts
No obvious cracks and gap, not opaque - 1 pts

Intensity of pigmented colored (red/black): 1 pt, the red is solid enough for me
Solid red or black colors (not translucent, orange or brown) - 1 pt

Total point: 1.5/10

Perhaps, we should not define white & red/black when assessing non-CRS/BDS?
Rather, use "primary" & "secondary" colors?

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## xconnect.

The point system too chin for me already I prefer the hino a1 grading system

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## Navanod

How about this fellow?

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## Navanod

> The point system too chin for me already I prefer the hino a1 grading system


Yes, I also agree. Point system probably requires a checklist but its an interesting idea to explore.

Even if we do a simple 5 tier grading system like the A1, people will still probably need to refer to the picture and remember to check all the different body parts...
what constitutes an A or a 1? B & 2?
There's still no simple way

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## stormhawk

Wasn't there a grade system with SSS etc for these shrimp?

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## soonhong

> How about this fellow?


I find this piece very unique ..thanks for sharing..

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## Navanod

> Wasn't there a grade system with SSS etc for these shrimp?


Indeed, that is the pattern based grading system, which is rapidly becoming ineffectual as the community moves towards color grading (so called "pure lines" with much more solid colors) as well.
So what we have now, are top grade SSS pattern mosura crowns/flowerheads with abysmal colors, such as this specimen


With new threads bashing "pure" shrimps with golden snow white genes appearing every so often, going on a witch hunt that'll never turn up any conclusions, I hope that a fair, transparent and reliable color grading system can bring some order to the chaos.

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## venom

> How about this fellow?


this photo somehow look like wine red to me

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## eviltrain

> this photo somehow look like wine red to me


This is super crystal red breed out by German hobbyists. 

Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)

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## silane

> Perhaps, we should not define white & red/black when assessing non-CRS/BDS?
> Rather, use "primary" & "secondary" colors?


It is not easy to rate shrimp of different strain into the same scoring criteria, for example if one if to use CRS system on KK, then a KK will fare better then CRS, its color is alway better then a CRS, for example: its legs are colored.

BTW, just heard from researcher, CRS are not Caridina cantonensis and the species of CRS is yet to be described. Caridina cantonensis is a type of transparent shrimps.

----------


## xconnect.

> It is not easy to rate shrimp of different strain into the same scoring criteria, for example if one if to use CRS system on KK, then a KK will fare better then CRS, its color is alway better then a CRS, for example: its legs are colored.
> 
> BTW, just heard from researcher, CRS are not Caridina cantonensis and the species of CRS is yet to be described. Caridina cantonensis is a type of transparent shrimps.


But I thought they were once transparent ish then after many selective breeding then their colour solid?

----------


## Ebi

> How about this fellow?


Is this the Super Red Crystal Shrimp that the germans are doing selective breeding to bring out the reds rather than the whites?

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## eviltrain

> Is this the Super Red Crystal Shrimp that the germans are doing selective breeding to bring out the reds rather than the whites?


Yapz. If you try to goggle for super crystal red, there are some very beautiful red specimens already produce.

Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)

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## Navanod

> It is not easy to rate shrimp of different strain into the same scoring criteria, for example if one if to use CRS system on KK, then a KK will fare better then CRS, its color is alway better then a CRS, for example: its legs are colored.
> 
> BTW, just heard from researcher, CRS are not Caridina cantonensis and the species of CRS is yet to be described. Caridina cantonensis is a type of transparent shrimps.


True, perhaps its best to refocus on CRS and BDS, at the same time, changing the species name in the title to reflect that.

Is it possible for the mod to assist in changing the thread title?

----------


## silane

> But I thought they were once transparent ish then after many selective breeding then their colour solid?


No, ancestor of CRS is bee shrimps, thats why in Japan CRS is also known as bee shrimps or red bee shrimps. They look identical to today CBS. Look like this:


And this form exits in the wild. Nowsday, almost impossible to buy them in shops anywhere in the world.

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## silane

> True, perhaps its best to refocus on CRS and BDS, at the same time, changing the species name in the title to reflect that.


Ya, work on this and then expand to the rest.

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## eviltrain

CRS has come a long way from



to 



woot~

----------


## silane

<---- pure and organic  :Very Happy: 

 <--- higly modified  :Very Happy:

----------


## reiner09

\ <----* natural* (prl lai de ahaha)

 <--- *man-made, don't know what is this..
*

----------


## stormhawk

Nava, thread title amended as requested.

----------


## Noobz

Wah like modify car. Modify with body kit Liao can sell more.

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## Navanod

> Nava, thread title amended as requested.


Thank you yet again

----------


## avex30

> this photo somehow look like wine red to me


Super Crystal red

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## Navanod

After much head scratching and staring at countless images of shrimps, I can only say it’s really a very difficult task to grade CRS’s color. An ascending quality grading method such as the one devised for Cherry to Fire red cannot fully capture the complexity of color in CRS.

The proposed grading will instead be of a deductive nature, where we start with the perfect specimen and then lower its grade based on flaws or defects spotted. Afterall, Singaporeans are all experts at pointing out faults. :Grin: 

The main difference about this method compared to the point system, is that the final grade is decided by the lowest denominator, or the worst flaws spotted, so to say.
Each grade would have about 4 listed defects but just having 1 of the listed will be enough to drop the grading to that grade.

Having multiple defects within a grade (or from a higher grade for that matter) would not lower the grading further but would obviously impact appearances more, potentially lowering its value.

Enough talk. Here’s my humble proposed grading system, with some example pictures.
I’m very sure that experienced graders would be able to find balance issues with the flaws or proposed additional flaws or replacement of some flaws. Please feel free to discuss and advice.


Grade 1 characteristics:
- Fully colored, without any cracks or gaps, including antennule, rostrum, maxillipeds & pereopods. Pleopods colors are a plus but not critical. 
- Rostrum, carapace, abdomen and tail must be solid color and opaque enough to hide the saddle, guts and any eggs.
- Any pigmented patterns must be clear and well defined from the white, without any spill over or "fade in fade out" effects.
- Any "yellowing" or "browning" of the white is considered spillover of red and black pigments and will fail grade 1.
- Overly transparent pigments of red or black will also fail this grade.





Grade 2 flaws:
-	Up to 50% transparent/translucent maxillipeds or pereopods.
-	Abdomen slightly translucent, eggs visible.
-	Slight spill over or irregular edges of pigmented patterns.
-	Very slight tint of yellow/orange/brown covering not more than 25% of the body.



Irregular edges and slight tint.

 
50% transparent/translucent maxillipeds or pereopods.


eggs visible

Abdomen slightly translucent. Very slight tint. Less than 50% transparent/translucent maxillipeds or pereopods.


Grade 3 flaws:
-	50% to 80% transparent/translucent maxillipeds or pereopods.
-	Obvious spill over and messy edges of pigmented patterns.
-	Slight tint of yellow/orange/brown covering up to 50% of the body.
-	Saddle and digestive tract visible.



50% to 80% transparent/translucent maxillipeds or pereopods.


Obvious spill over and messy edges of pigmented patterns. Digestive tract visible.

 
Slight tint of yellow/orange/brown covering up to 50% of the body. Digestive tract visible.


Grade 4 flaws:
-	More than 80% transparent/translucent maxillipeds or pereopods including totally colorless maxillipeds or pereopods.
-	Slight translucency in antennules or rostrum.
-	A few obvious dark tinted spots of yellow/orange/brown on body.
-	More than 50% of body covered with slight tint of yellow/orange/brown.


More than 80% transparent/translucent maxillipeds or pereopods. Note that as there're cracks, this is actually a grade 5. Just to show the legs as an example


More than 80% transparent/translucent maxillipeds or pereopods including totally colorless. More than 50% of body covered with slight tint of yellow/orange/brown.

----------


## Navanod

Grade 5 flaws (from this color grade and below, is not considered good colors expected of pedigree lines):
-	Minor cracks in the body colors not exceeding 20%.
-	Many obvious dark tinted spots of yellow/orange/brown on body.
-	Colorless antennules or rostrum.
-	Slightly translucent pigmented areas of red/black.

 
Minor cracks in the body colors not exceeding 20%. Many obvious dark tinted spots of yellow/orange/brown on body. Slightly translucent pigmented areas of red/black.


Minor cracks in the body colors not exceeding 20%.


Minor cracks in the body colors not exceeding 20%. Note that without the cracks, it would’ve upgraded to grade 4 for having 80% translucent legs.


Many obvious dark tinted spots of yellow/orange/brown on body


Colorless antennules or rostrum. Minor cracks in the body colors not exceeding 20%.


Grade 6 flaws:
-	Moderate cracks in body colors not exceeding 50%.
-	Wide spread dark tinted areas.
-	Head translucent, internal organs visible.
-	Nearly transparent pigmented areas of red/black.


Moderate cracks in body colors. Head translucent, internal organs visible. Nearly transparent pigmented areas of red/black.


Moderate cracks in body colors not exceeding 50%.


Grade 7 flaws:
-	Grading not necessary as anything worse is probably going to end up with the grade B or C pattern shrimps category. See pictures






It should be obvious that this system is far from perfect & it is not meant to be the final word on grading methods. The aim is to have a framework to quickly and roughly group shrimps into a few tiers of grades. Each shrimps can then be assessed separately if necessary based on the types and number of flaws to arrive at its actual worth.
Some hobbyist may favour red legs while others luminous white shells so it is not possible to be overly arbitrary in grading.

There may also be rare instances of an otherwise stunning shrimp being graded poorly due to the nature of how arbitrary and unbalanced this system may be. Eg. A super solid, totally untinted, almost fully covered shrimp with fantastic red and whites gets grade 4 because the rostrum is slightly translucent.

In this case, the shrimp did not exhibit any of the flaws in the grades above it but drops directly to grade 4 from grade 1. An unlikely case since most of the shrimp’s color normally degrades in a certain progressive nature, but not impossible. Under such circumstances, the grader may choose to upgrade the shrimp by 1 or even 2 grades. Some discretions and judgement calls have to be made based on individual cases. I see no way that a system can be created to deal with these exceptions without making it overly complex.

----------


## Navanod

Please provide some feedbacks.

Too complicated?
Too difficult to grade large number of shrimps quickly?
Need checklist?
Not a fair system?

----------


## Navanod

I feel like I'm talking to myself but I'm not satisfied with this method...too clumsy and impossible to use for quick grading.
Need to simplify. After all, we only need to focus on grading very good colors. The obviously bad ones will not even pass a casual look, let alone try to pass off as pedigree lines.

Back to the drawing board...

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## stormhawk

Too much things to think about when most people prefer a condensed version, like the chart on the SSS grades for example.

----------


## cheetf

> I feel like I'm talking to myself but I'm not satisfied with this method...too clumsy and impossible to use for quick grading.
> Need to simplify. After all, we only need to focus on grading very good colors. The obviously bad ones will not even pass a casual look, let alone try to pass off as pedigree lines.
> 
> Back to the drawing board...


You are not talking to yourself, everybody is busy with Chinese New Year.

I think it's a good effort but you are right, it needs to be simplified. Shrimps are small and they run around everywhere, making it difficult to grade them especially in a big group.

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## Navanod

> Too much things to think about when most people prefer a condensed version, like the chart on the SSS grades for example.





> You are not talking to yourself, everybody is busy with Chinese New Year.
> 
> I think it's a good effort but you are right, it needs to be simplified. Shrimps are small and they run around everywhere, making it difficult to grade them especially in a big group.


Indeed, I think I'm going to relook at how earlier suggestions splits the grading into 2 "letters" as well as bring back Eviltrain's +/- idea. Hehehehe.

----------


## Navanod

How about this?
We take the grading of legs and claws out and make it a simple symbol

Grade 1, Top grade
- Fully solid body with solid red/black and uniform white.

Grade 2
- Fully solid body with slight tint or pattern unevenness.

Grade 3
- Slightly translucent parts, eggs visibles. Moderate tint or pattern unevenness.

Grade 4
- Translucent, internal organs, saddle or digestive tract visible. Obvious tint and pattern overruns.

Grade 5, Rejected grade
- Cracks in color. Would not be considered for pedigree color grading.

For shrimps with poor colors in antennules, maxillipeds & pereopods, a (-) symbol can be attached to the grading.
For shrimps with average colors in antennules, maxillipeds & pereopods, no symbols is attached.
For shrimps with solid colors in antennules, maxillipeds & pereopods, a (+) symbol can be attached to the grading.

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## Navanod

So for example,
This is G1+


This is G1 (without +)


This is G2+


This is G3+


This is G4+


This is G4-


This is G4+


This is G4


This is G5 failed

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## eviltrain

We just use" the example "SSS( colour grade number)+/-" for the over all grading la. Then hor, best is that the seller post the photo too.

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## stormhawk

:Laughing:  when you said G5 failed I had a good laugh. Might as well go with GCE O Level grading system - A1 A2, B3 B4, C5 C6 with + and - to denote degree of intensity etc.

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## Navanod

> We just use" the example "SSS( colour grade number)+/-" for the over all grading la. Then hor, best is that the seller post the photo too.


Yup, eg. SSS 2+
Simple and good?




> when you said G5 failed I had a good laugh. Might as well go with GCE O Level grading system - A1 A2, B3 B4, C5 C6 with + and - to denote degree of intensity etc.


HAHA! Can also, since we'll hardly see C grade patterns showing up anyway.

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## hyun007

> We just use" the example "SSS( colour grade number)+/-" for the over all grading la. Then hor, best is that the seller post the photo too.


 +1. 
Same idea as mine.

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## Navanod

Sounds like we have a draft system to work from then.
The main thing is probably not about how accurate or great or scientific it is, but how practical and acceptable to the majority it is.

Keep your comments coming!

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## Navanod

Oh, for interest sake, here's a link to the K14 grading system. It is heavily based on patterns but some color grading is also taking place. Translation to english is pretty readable.
http://crystal-red.de/aussehen.htm

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## silane

> How about this?
> We take the grading of legs and claws out and make it a simple symbol
> 
> Grade 1, Top grade
> - Fully solid body with solid red/black and uniform white.
> 
> Grade 2
> - Fully solid body with slight tint or pattern unevenness.
> 
> ...




for Crs or Prl?

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk

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## Navanod

> for Crs or Prl?
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk


I'm trying to work from the top down at the moment. So I'm pausing at grade 5, which is the psychologically line that divides PRLs from CRS.
What are you thoughts on feasibility? If it looks workable, then the rest of the grades can be generated.
Looks like it'll be even more layered than the K14, which has 7 tiers.

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## huizhong

very strict and too many criteria to grade. from the pics, some of the grade 2 seem lousier than grade 3, and some grade 3 look prettier than grade 2. 

since letters A,S,SS,SSS are already grading patterns, maybe the numbers can focus on colour(intensity and define) only on 2 main parts : body AND legs. easier? 

a prl to grade 5 is a little too many i guess? since it is already a prl, i think people expect it to pass off as at least grade 4 standard? lower than that i will have my doubts(whether is it really prl? where is the QC process? ). a pedigree grade 1 prl originated from japan can produce grade 5 so easily? i think it will take many many many generations?
just my newbie opinion. i'm new still.

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## ZackZhou

I'm not trying to cold call this new grading system, however I don't think this is ever going to work out. 
1. Local Shrimp hobbyist are still consider new to prls. Very few people dare to venture out to high $$ prls. Most got their prls from breeders like me, NewLife, Alvin, joe, nasty or soonhong for example. What we are selling are consider as low end prls. Although they are prls, they are CHEAP. some people in this case may argue that $30 for a shrimp is already very expensive. But consider to look at the bigger picture. Prls price range from this lowered $30 all the way up to $3000USD. This kind of prls that we are selling DOES NOT worth to be graded in my opinion. I keep prls as well, but honestly I do think that it will ever bother to graded when I selectively breed for another 2 years. 

2. Guys, let's get to the ground and face the $$. We all want to get better colour prls. The only thing that is holding us back are $$. Put it more precisely, the idea of acceptance- of buying a single $1000 shrimp. I guess most of us Singaporeans won't feel that a shrimp would worth that much, will we or other family members accepts the fact that one can buy a $1000 shrimp? We can't, and that shows once again Singapore shrimps hobby has not mature yet. Let's face it, judging from navonod's picture reference, anything around G3 WILL cost you a bomb. 

3. Anything that will cost you a bomb will show pictures of the actual shrimp itself. So once again there is no need for such grading reference.

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## ZackZhou

Arh.. Realize my above post too long winded. In short, cheap $$ shrimp= less argument, get cheated once, you lose $50 bucks and move on. expensive shrimp = photo please,if it matches both your requirement, expectation + the $$ you willing to spend, you buy. its that simple  :Very Happy:

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## Navanod

> very strict and too many criteria to grade. from the pics, some of the grade 2 seem lousier than grade 3, and some grade 3 look prettier than grade 2. 
> 
> since letters A,S,SS,SSS are already grading patterns, maybe the numbers can focus on colour(intensity and define) only on 2 main parts : body AND legs. easier? 
> 
> a prl to grade 5 is a little too many i guess? since it is already a prl, i think people expect it to pass off as at least grade 4 standard? lower than that i will have my doubts(whether is it really prl? where is the QC process? ). a pedigree grade 1 prl originated from japan can produce grade 5 so easily? i think it will take many many many generations?
> just my newbie opinion. i'm new still.


Thanks for the interesting comments.

Bro Huizhong, are you referring to the first more complicated system? Or the 2nd simplified one because in the 2nd one, the body and legs are graded separately as you had suggested, along with reducing the premium pedigree grades to 4 tiers. Exactly as you had suggested.

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## silane

> I'm trying to work from the top down at the moment. So I'm pausing at grade 5, which is the psychologically line that divides PRLs from CRS.
> What are you thoughts on feasibility? If it looks workable, then the rest of the grades can be generated.
> Looks like it'll be even more layered than the K14, which has 7 tiers.


PRL grading should be more dimensions on white, red/black and features. This system just rate on white, does not address red/black and colors on features what make a good PRL. You have worked on white.. perpahs should work on red and features.

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## eviltrain

Oh ya, we missed out on the red too. Some crs come with different types of reds. Orangy, blood red, maron. Kind of difficult to grade this way and base one which red to grade from. 

But, more or less, 1/2 the grading (white) has already done with. I really salute bro navanod for spending his time on these few threads writing "wall of words" for easier understanding of shrimps for newbies like me. Good job!

Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)

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## Navanod

Bro Zack, let's see if I understand your points right.

You think the system is not practical because shrimps that we are dealing with are too cheap to be worth grading and those worth grading are so expensive we wouldn't buy them anyway.
You also believe that shrimps that are worth a bomb, can be judged on it's worth by looking at a good picture, without a need for references?

Also, since we are not willing to pay a bomb, we deserved to be scammed of our $50 a shrimp by dubious sellers and that we should just "move on" since it's our fault for not willing to spend more?

Could you define what you would expect our local hobbyists should do to mature the hobby? Cough up more $$?

I was under the impression that maturing the hobby mean having a greater understanding of what we are paying other countries and breeders for, breeding our own fantastic grade shrimps and not let people take advantage of our ignorance and lack of experience.
Maturing the hobby also means that we should come up with new and exciting things, not forever follow behind Taiwan & Japan. Currently, we are not only just a follower, but a net end consumer, paying money to help the Taiwanese, Japanese and Thais mature their hobbys.

Surely our local hobbyists are not that hopeless that they can only save up to pay for a $2500USD shrimp, quickly taking a photo of it to show off before the shrimp dies, then declaring that we have matured in the hobby?

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## Navanod

> PRL grading should be more dimensions on white, red/black and features. This system just rate on white, does not address red/black and colors on features what make a good PRL. You have worked on white.. perpahs should work on red and features.


Hmmm, thanks for the valuable insights again. I actually assumed that the "fully colored" & "solid" covered both white and red. The "irregular" patterns was aimed at red as well. What else should the red/black parts be graded for in your opinion?

Some examples of features?

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## Navanod

> Oh ya, we missed out on the red too. Some crs come with different types of reds. Orangy, blood red, maron. Kind of difficult to grade this way and base one which red to grade from. 
> 
> But, more or less, 1/2 the grading (white) has already done with. I really salute bro navanod for spending his time on these few threads writing "wall of words" for easier understanding of shrimps for newbies like me. Good job!
> 
> Send from my GT-P1000 (Overcome 7 Series v4.0.0)


Types of red would be tricky. Who is to say which red is better than another? Haha!!
As I said, I thought the recently proposed system also covered the reds? What did I missed?

----------


## huizhong

> Thanks for the interesting comments.
> 
> Bro Huizhong, are you referring to the first more complicated system? Or the 2nd simplified one because in the 2nd one, the body and legs are graded separately as you had suggested, along with reducing the premium pedigree grades to 4 tiers. Exactly as you had suggested.


 Was actually referring to both. Somehow they are still comprehensive. 
If a grade 1 has a (-), I would think it is automatically drop to grade 2 since the grading is strict.
To be even straight forward, do away with the (+)(-) thing. As I think this is no longer necessary as the top grades would be shown pictures for customers. Don't think anybody will spend $3-5K for a pc of prl without even looking at its pictures or video, or in real. 
Those prl thats on sale from breeders in Sg, are definitely the cheaper ones(culls), like bro zack said, about grade 3-4. Gradings for grades 3-4 with (+) would benefit more to differtiate the different quality. Grade 1-2 with such high pricing definitely needs more than just words to describe them. 

From a logical point of view, only the famous breeders in Japan or Taiwan has gade 1 prl(and some very few in the world). If it is so easy to get grade 1 or replicate them in their offsprings, the pricing will speak for itself. If I'm the famous breeder, I definitely will have the best grade breeding colony for myself so as to continue my superior line and keep my rice bowl. and these breeders definitely don't need the gradings to grade their stock. Only resellers breeders need. 
So point is... Grade 3 onwards to have comprehensive grading if you want?
Haha I'm so long winded... Sorry

----------


## ZackZhou

> Bro Zack, let's see if I understand your points right.
> 
> You think the system is not practical because shrimps that we are dealing with are too cheap to be worth grading and those worth grading are so expensive we wouldn't buy them anyway.
> You also believe that shrimps that are worth a bomb, can be judged on it's worth by looking at a good picture, without a need for references?
> 
> Also, since we are not willing to pay a bomb, we deserved to be scammed of our $50 a shrimp by dubious sellers and that we should just "move on" since it's our fault for not willing to spend more?
> 
> Could you define what you would expect our local hobbyists should do to mature the hobby? Cough up more $$?
> 
> ...


Bro navonod, I definitely did not mean what you mentioned in the above post. Maybe I did put it abit bluntly, causing you some discomfort and thus you sort of "twisted" my word a little bit to the ugly side. Haha. My apology. I too know that you did mean me no harm intended and it's just an typical Internet text misinterpretation.

1. Lets talk about in Singapore context alone. If you come up with the grading system, who will be using them? Only bro soonhong? Because he is the only one I know of in SG who has at least say G2,3 and above prls. 

2. "Also, since we are not willing to pay a bomb, we deserved to be scammed of our $50 a shrimp by dubious sellers and that we should just "move on" since it's our fault for not willing to spend more?" since you mentioned this, lets be pratical. may I ask how will the new grading system work on to solve/prevent this incident from happening? 

3. How are going to carry out this grading system? Will this have any effect on the whole Singapore hobbyist, other countries? IMO, it ultimately still relies on reputation and position in this line of trade. Maybe silane will be carrying out this grading system to the public? What I am trying to say is that we do not have the expirence and the knowledge in creating this grading system. Simply because we do not own a single G1,G2! 

4. Like you and I mentioned above in my earlier post. We are following the trend. 2 options, like you said, we Either "Cough up more $$" to be in the lead of this trend. Example, bro soonhong. OR we try to invent/create new stuffs. Example, bro xmant. No offense to the 2 bros mentioned, they are actually the ones that are leading the Singapore shrimp hobby.

5. Yes I still believe that Singapore market for shrimp is not matured. And ultimately if we do want to be competitive in the PRL market, we HAVE to cough more $$ to get prls from Taiwan/Japan. There is simply no other ways.

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## ZackZhou

In whole, I do not support this grading system. 

1. Why the last grading system and the German k system worked. Because they grade in pattern. If its ss grade, everyone agrees on ss grade being either a hino, a no-entry or little lips. Other than that, it's not an ss grade. It's a fact. No arguments about it. 

The new prl grading system. Colour. everyone see colour differently, ya that's it. 

I would still stick to pictures and willing buyer, willing seller policy.

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## ZackZhou

Bro navonod, I 100% feel that you really did a wonderful job in trying to improve the shrimp hobby on a national level, however, this topic I have to disagree with you on this grading system.  :Very Happy:

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## ZackZhou

> Could you define what you would expect our local hobbyists should do to mature the hobby? Cough up more $$?
> 
> I was under the impression that maturing the hobby mean having a greater understanding of what we are paying other countries and breeders for, breeding our own fantastic grade shrimps and not let people take advantage of our ignorance and lack of experience.
> Maturing the hobby also means that we should come up with new and exciting things, not forever follow behind Taiwan & Japan. Currently, we are not only just a follower, but a net end consumer, paying money to help the Taiwanese, Japanese and Thais mature their hobbys.
> 
> Surely our local hobbyists are not that hopeless that they can only save up to pay for a $2500USD shrimp, quickly taking a photo of it to show off before the shrimp dies, then declaring that we have matured in the hobby?


think that I have left out this part.
"I was under the impression that maturing the hobby mean having a greater understanding of what we are paying other countries and breeders for, breeding our own fantastic grade shrimps and not let people take advantage of our ignorance and lack of experience."
Someone who is willing to pay $2000 for a single shrimp. Do you think that he would be ignorant/lack of expirence and just dive in for the purchase? I believe anyone in Singapore who are willing to buy a $200 shrimp would have kept crs/kk/wr for quite some time before making the purchase. He should know how to judge a price to quality picture. Most will still buy from local hobbyist bred-outs and lfs sales.

How to mature a hobby on this exact same trade/hobby. 
Pump in more money to one of the first. However, you cannot be first unless something happened to the first. Let me explain. 
If you want to in the lead of PRL only, you buy expensive prls of superb quality from hobbyist from Japan/Taiwan(in this case, you pay money to help the Taiwanese, Japanese and Thais mature their hobbys.) If you managed to breed out and expand the population, you will be competitive geographically. Because you are in Singapore! No one else can match your prl colours and they can only find matching ones overseas. (bro soonhong is in the midst of doing that. Hahaha) 

"Maturing the hobby also means that we should come up with new and exciting things, not forever follow behind Taiwan & Japan."
New things meaning you have to come up with new trends, like the super crystal reds by the Germans. However, it comes with great risks and sheer determination and most importantly, time! In Singapore like I mentioned, only xmant is doing this. 
And I need to bring out a point that people only start to venture out into new trends if they had success in their mainstream trends. That is to say the local hobby has to mature to a certain extent before attempting to create something special. 

"Surely our local hobbyists are not that hopeless that they can only save up to pay for a $2500USD shrimp, quickly taking a photo of it to show off before the shrimp dies, then declaring that we have matured in the hobby?" 
This will be sad if it really happens but this sentence is actually partially true.  :Smile:  we mature into the hobby with someone buying expensive shrimps and start breeding to supply to the local hobbyist! Or else we will be always following trends and being net-end comsumers.  :Smile:

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## ZackZhou

Bro navonod, I came up with an example. 
Let's do assume every hobbyists in the world had come to a agreement on this grading system. And someone in singapore approach a breeder in Taiwan to purchase prls with a intended budget of $200/shrimp. Now comes the question. "will you or will you not ask for pictures even though he had listed you the grades according to your grading system?" 
As if you do, the grading system had failed.  :Smile: 
(we generally did not ask for pictures when dealing crs base on patterns  :Smile:  and that makes the crs grading system successful)

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## Navanod

Bro Zack,

Yea, it was late and I was reading from my phone so perhaps your text sounded very mercenary at that time.
Appreciate you staying up so late to give so much feedback, and look like something good came of it because I see some very valid points I fully agree with that wasn't in your initial postings.

I also see many questions which I shall not attempt to answer all, because I cannot claim to have all the answers but I shall reply to what is pertinent to the topic. Forgive me for cherry picking  :Razz:

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## Navanod

> 1. Lets talk about in Singapore context alone. If you come up with the grading system, who will be using them? Only bro soonhong? Because he is the only one I know of in SG who has at least say G2,3 and above prls.


It was designed with the intention and knowledge that most people here would only have G3 or lower grades. I don't think it's right to leave out higher grades just because we don't have them yet. Perhaps people will now breed hard and save up hard to get G1s?




> 2. "Also, since we are not willing to pay a bomb, we deserved to be scammed of our $50 a shrimp by dubious sellers and that we should just "move on" since it's our fault for not willing to spend more?" since you mentioned this, lets be pratical. may I ask how will the new grading system work on to solve/prevent this incident from happening?


It's a small step to making sellers more responsible and new comers more aware. I give you an example. I was chatting with one of the bros you mentioned who had PRL and he was telling me about "low grades" & "mid grades" shrimps from overseas. I totally cannot relate to what is low and mid as I've not been to the breeder's house to see his shrimps.
Likewise, a seller can say his shrimps are mid grade PRLs without any reference. Then he shows some pictures. I'm sure there'll be people would still believe and buy from him. Without a system, all the breeders and seller would still come up with their own when marketing and we all know the conflicts of interest there.




> 3. How are going to carry out this grading system? Will this have any effect on the whole Singapore hobbyist, other countries? IMO, it ultimately still relies on reputation and position in this line of trade. Maybe silane will be carrying out this grading system to the public? What I am trying to say is that we do not have the expirence and the knowledge in creating this grading system. Simply because we do not own a single G1,G2!


Silane did mention that we can try to create one locally for our own use first. If it works well, he'll bring it to a german conference that he had been invited to. I disagree that we have to own G1s to qualify to grade them. Wait, you're already using the grade what bro?! 




> 4. Like you and I mentioned above in my earlier post. We are following the trend. 2 options, like you said, we Either "Cough up more $$" to be in the lead of this trend. Example, bro soonhong. OR we try to invent/create new stuffs. Example, bro xmant. No offense to the 2 bros mentioned, they are actually the ones that are leading the Singapore shrimp hobby.


Fully agree! This was exactly what bro Eviltrain and I talked about as well (and we mentioned the same 2 person!)! That most of us are not breeders, just keepers, unlike Soonhong and Xmant. 




> 5. Yes I still believe that Singapore market for shrimp is not matured. And ultimately if we do want to be competitive in the PRL market, we HAVE to cough more $$ to get prls from Taiwan/Japan. There is simply no other ways.


Its a vicious cycle. People don't dare to cough up cash because they don't trust the grades they're getting. They don't trust it because we're always getting the leftovers and culls. But as long as locals do not have a system to see that these are only low grades G4 & 5s, then they'll continue to play safe and go with the cheap grades. Like you said, at most lose $50 loh. But where does that bring the hobby?

I can see that the trend is changing because our understandings of how to keep the expensive shrimps alive has also improved. 2yrs ago, people are unwilling to even pay for SS shrimps that cost $12 and painted fire reds that cost $8. Now we see people buying $50 shrimps and even $100 blue bolts.
Yes, we're still far from $2500 shrimps but do we really want to go there?

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## Navanod

> In whole, I do not support this grading system. 
> 
> 1. Why the last grading system and the German k system worked. Because they grade in pattern. If its ss grade, everyone agrees on ss grade being either a hino, a no-entry or little lips. Other than that, it's not an ss grade. It's a fact. No arguments about it. 
> 
> The new prl grading system. Colour. everyone see colour differently, ya that's it. 
> 
> I would still stick to pictures and willing buyer, willing seller policy.


Very valid point, I'll keep that in mind and try to come out with a more clear cut grading. Otherwise, its back to iphone pictures and berber sellers, blur blur buyers.  :Evil:

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## Navanod

> Bro navonod, I 100% feel that you really did a wonderful job in trying to improve the shrimp hobby on a national level, however, this topic I have to disagree with you on this grading system.


I thank you again bro. I respectfully agree to disagree.  :Smile:

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## Navanod

> Bro navonod, I came up with an example. 
> Let's do assume every hobbyists in the world had come to a agreement on this grading system. And someone in singapore approach a breeder in Taiwan to purchase prls with a intended budget of $200/shrimp. Now comes the question. "will you or will you not ask for pictures even though he had listed you the grades according to your grading system?" 
> As if you do, the grading system had failed. 
> (we generally did not ask for pictures when dealing crs base on patterns  and that makes the crs grading system successful)


But pattern based CRS don't cost $200/shrimp, at least not in the last 3 or 4 years. And people still prefer to pay abit more to go to GC and CRS Haven to pick.
Let me ask you then, if you're buying a $200/shrimp SSS flowerhead, will you ask for pictures?
Bro Ecalyte would be an expert on this, we should ask him. If people would still ask for pictures to see the flowerheads, then does that mean the CRS grading system is also failed?

To me, its a strawman argument bro. Asking for pictures to verify the grades claimed is entirely reasonable and does not mean the grading is worthless.

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## Navanod

> Was actually referring to both. Somehow they are still comprehensive. 
> If a grade 1 has a (-), I would think it is automatically drop to grade 2 since the grading is strict.
> To be even straight forward, do away with the (+)(-) thing. As I think this is no longer necessary as the top grades would be shown pictures for customers. Don't think anybody will spend $3-5K for a pc of prl without even looking at its pictures or video, or in real. 
> Those prl thats on sale from breeders in Sg, are definitely the cheaper ones(culls), like bro zack said, about grade 3-4. Gradings for grades 3-4 with (+) would benefit more to differtiate the different quality. Grade 1-2 with such high pricing definitely needs more than just words to describe them. 
> 
> From a logical point of view, only the famous breeders in Japan or Taiwan has gade 1 prl(and some very few in the world). If it is so easy to get grade 1 or replicate them in their offsprings, the pricing will speak for itself. If I'm the famous breeder, I definitely will have the best grade breeding colony for myself so as to continue my superior line and keep my rice bowl. and these breeders definitely don't need the gradings to grade their stock. Only resellers breeders need. 
> So point is... Grade 3 onwards to have comprehensive grading if you want?
> Haha I'm so long winded... Sorry


Thanks bro, so you think we should have a hybrid of the complicated system and the simplified? for G2 and G1, the legs would affect their grades while in G3 & 4, the legs can be a +/-?

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## huizhong

> Thanks bro, so you think we should have a hybrid of the complicated system and the simplified? for G2 and G1, the legs would affect their grades while in G3 & 4, the legs can be a +/-?


hmm... afterall the grading is given based on the seller's opinion. 
buyers may not agree to his grading. eg, i am selling my S grade crs, and a buyer came over my place and said, this is a B grade to him.
so it doesn't matter how complicated and comprehensive the grading system works. i propose we keep it simple and easy! just grade 1,2,3,4,rejects.
even the rejecteds can fetch $20 at this moment i guess.
and maybe a price *range* for each grade ? so we new birds can learn and estimate the pricing base on the grades? or this will be another new thread? 
i really have no idea on prl pricing, as i only visit AQ forum and not other shrimps forums.

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## Navanod

> hmm... afterall the grading is given based on the seller's opinion. 
> buyers may not agree to his grading. eg, i am selling my S grade crs, and a buyer came over my place and said, this is a B grade to him.
> so it doesn't matter how complicated and comprehensive the grading system works. i propose we keep it simple and easy! just grade 1,2,3,4,rejects.
> even the rejecteds can fetch $20 at this moment i guess.
> and maybe a price *range* for each grade ? so we new birds can learn and estimate the pricing base on the grades? or this will be another new thread? 
> i really have no idea on prl pricing, as i only visit AQ forum and not other shrimps forums.


Pricing is very sensitive and flexible as its subjected to supply, demand, rarity and whether is local bred or imported. There's no system for pricing other than free market forces.
Yes, I agree that the more simple the system, the better. I'm waiting for Silane to advice on the red/black grading to see how it can be further improved but I think this is more or less as far as we can go.

Acceptance and use is dependent on the majority of hobbyists

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## ZackZhou

Bro navonad, I would suggest a temporary(can be permanent thou) suggestion. But this needs the help of the admins in this forum thou.

1. Any shrimp above the $50/$100(can be discussed) price range must be accompanied by a individual photo of the actual shrimp itself. The admin needs to add in into their rules and regulation. However, I understand that the admins and moderators have their own things to do, we can help ourselves with the more experienced ones in this forum reminding the Ts to come up with a photo or else it would be violating AQ rules. This may not apply to other form of livestocks as generally other livestock do not have too much of a detailed grading and usually much lesser dispute than to shrimps.

This way will achieve the main objective of the grading system, not to get conned and cheated. 

2. Sellers background. When you are selling more mid/high grade shrimps, you must attach a setup/general shrimp post in the inverts section link in your sales thread. This is to prevent to a certain extent sellers who bring in directly from Taiwan/Japan and profit from the instant change of hands. otherwise, state where did you buy it from. 

The above ways I believe would be able to be carried out more efficiently and easily than a new grading system. Meanwhile, we can continue to crack out nuts and come up with new ideas  :Very Happy:

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## Navanod

Hahaha! Bro! You really have the making of a politician!
Misquoted.
And what cannot be self regulated, can be dealt with through draconian legislation!

But you know what? I kinda like your idea.  :Evil: 
It'll probably drive such sales underground, but then buyers cannot complain if they choose to buy from these dealers.
It may also drive sellers to only deal in sub $50 shrimps to save the trouble so it may actually make getting high grade shrimps even harder. These are repercussions that the admins, the mods and big players have to consider.

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## magpie

I feel that this thread on the grading of crystal red shrimps is only applicable to PRL that is usually sold at a premium price. In our local market, there are basically 2 type of shrimp keepers. Either you go for pattern or intense coloration shrimps. For the former, the highest notch shrimps they are expecting are sss flowerhead/crown shrimps that are usually achieved with snow whites/golden through selective breeding. The latter I will consider them as experience breeder that is willing to fork out huge amount of money to get PRL with the ultimate aim of breeding superb coloration shrimp. They preferred colour to pattern.

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## magpie

Actually, the marketplace sell thread template is already very comprehensive. You have an option to choose whether is the shrimps you are selling is low grade, mid or high grade. For ethical seller, they will state according. There is also option to choose whether is the livestock self breeder, 2nd hand from someone or previously from LFS. With all these information, buyer will rarely expect the quality of shrimps they are getting. But there is still loophole in the sale thread as seller can choose to omit these information. ultimately, it is still happy seller happy buyer.

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## cheetf

> Bro navonad, I would suggest a temporary(can be permanent thou) suggestion. But this needs the help of the admins in this forum thou.
> 
> 1. Any shrimp above the $50/$100(can be discussed) price range must be accompanied by a individual photo of the actual shrimp itself. The admin needs to add in into their rules and regulation. However, I understand that the admins and moderators have their own things to do, we can help ourselves with the more experienced ones in this forum reminding the Ts to come up with a photo or else it would be violating AQ rules. This may not apply to other form of livestocks as generally other livestock do not have too much of a detailed grading and usually much lesser dispute than to shrimps.
> 
> This way will achieve the main objective of the grading system, not to get conned and cheated. 
> 
> 2. Sellers background. When you are selling more mid/high grade shrimps, you must attach a setup/general shrimp post in the inverts section link in your sales thread. This is to prevent to a certain extent sellers who bring in directly from Taiwan/Japan and profit from the instant change of hands. otherwise, state where did you buy it from. 
> 
> The above ways I believe would be able to be carried out more efficiently and easily than a new grading system. Meanwhile, we can continue to crack out nuts and come up with new ideas


Sounds like an excellent idea!

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## cheetf

> Actually, the marketplace sell thread template is already very comprehensive. You have an option to choose whether is the shrimps you are selling is low grade, mid or high grade. For ethical seller, they will state according. There is also option to choose whether is the livestock self breeder, 2nd hand from someone or previously from LFS. With all these information, buyer will rarely expect the quality of shrimps they are getting. But there is still loophole in the sale thread as seller can choose to omit these information. ultimately, it is still happy seller happy buyer.


So tell me what is a QC failed high grade shrimp? Isn't that an oxymoron?

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## magpie

QC failed high grade shrimp is what? How I know? You ask the seller lah why ask me?

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## cheetf

That's the whole point. The current template of descriptions can be very confusing and vague. Needs something that describes the shrimp being sold more accurately so that people will have a better idea what they will be getting.

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## magpie

So are you confused by the word QC failed or high grade shrimps? I only chanced upon sale thread with title QC failed hino, s grade or sss grade. Never seen anyone mentioned QC high grade shrimp. If you can find one pasted the link here.

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## cheetf

Here is part of the description.

Item(s): Q.C Failed PRL

Condition/Quality:

Plants/livestock: High grade

If QC fail is still high grade?

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## Navanod

Although this is an excellent example to show that "self QC" is somewhat hard to understand if there's no common standards for the QC, I must give credits to those sellers who at least try. I think there's progress to a certain extent.

That being said, I must request that we do not get overly personal in this thread to avoid derailing the whole thing over yet another argument. Thanks

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## stormhawk

With reference to the "QC fail" sales thread by a fellow member, that is entirely within his rights to title his sales thread as such, oxymoron or not.

As for Zack's suggestion, if we do this, we have to apply it to everything else, including fish and equipment. I don't think each and every seller would want to take photographs of his/her own stuff for sale unless to make the sales more enticing to a prospective buyer. On the issue of reselling livestock from overseas or other sources, it is not encouraged, but well within their rights to do so as sellers. It is ultimately up to the buyer to decide by themselves.

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## silane

> 2. Sellers background. When you are selling more mid/high grade shrimps, you must attach a setup/general shrimp post in the inverts section link in your sales thread. This is to prevent to a certain extent sellers who bring in directly from Taiwan/Japan and profit from the instant change of hands. otherwise, state where did you buy it from.


Only sources from Taiwan/Japan? How about Hong Kong and Thailand ?

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## ZackZhou

> Only sources from Taiwan/Japan? How about Hong Kong and Thailand ?


Haha, of course, from anywhere. Reselling is a form of comercial practice. Shouldnt be allowed in forumer buy/sell am I right?

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## ZackZhou

> With reference to the "QC fail" sales thread by a fellow member, that is entirely within his rights to title his sales thread as such, oxymoron or not.
> 
> As for Zack's suggestion, if we do this, we have to apply it to everything else, including fish and equipment. I don't think each and every seller would want to take photographs of his/her own stuff for sale unless to make the sales more enticing to a prospective buyer. On the issue of reselling livestock from overseas or other sources, it is not encouraged, but well within their rights to do so as sellers. It is ultimately up to the buyer to decide by themselves.


Hi mod, 
We are not saying that the TS for the qc failed prl is wrong. It just shows how the system is too vague. If it continue like this, I believe that a Berber incident, kk fade colour thread will be repeated every now and then.  :Smile: 

Once again, I do think it's better to limit the rules to inverts with higher price only. This will solve your queries too. The reason that I believe and came up with this idea, is by looking at the marketplace, most people selling higher range prls did put up, or being requested to display photos when buyers want to buy. I do believe the selling of shrimps should be taken noticed as it takes up quite a large percentage in the marketplace sales.

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## Navanod

Bro Zack,

We can only propose, educate and encourage but ultimately, enforcement is not for us to say.
For every rule, there're repercussions. It'll be a knee jerk reaction to go from wild wild west to draconian rules overnight. Your plans have their merits and we can encourage it by setting an example as well as pointing out obvious misrepresentations when we see them.

Actually, for the QC failed, the TS did say what it was that failed them after I took a closer look. It is what I had stated for G5 failed grade, cracks in the color.

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## stormhawk

I guess if a buyer truly wants to get what he paid for, then it's best for him to go pick it himself from the seller's tanks. It is ultimately a question of trust, and if that is not possible then no transaction should take place, be it with QC failed shrimps or not.

The forum only provides a venue for people to buy and sell things, including livestock. The agreement to purchase or sell is a personal matter between the parties involved, hence there should not be any third party intervention unless required, like in cases of cheating and selling defective goods. This applies to reselling. If a person is reselling items, that is within their rights because once the goods have changed ownership, the previous seller or others should not be making complaints. You can inform a prospective buyer of this matter privately via PM if you so wish.

A simple fix is for people to fully state what they are selling with necessary info on any defects if applicable. You don't need to change the template as it is right now, and the rest of the admins and mods agree likewise.

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