# General > Member's Lounge > Photography >  Bokeh

## trident

Hi,
Got myself a Tamron 17-50mm f2.8. Tested it's bokeh at 50mm f2.8.
I read from cs that bokeh improve with extension tube.
Not sure about that so I put it to a test. The second picture is taken with a 12mm extension tube and 
I think it's bokeh is better, but the downside is, can only shoot macro and it cannot focus at infinity.
What do you guys think?

#1. 

#2. with extension tube.

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## ranmasatome

I am not sure if you can exactly say that the bokeh is better. I mean with an extention tube basically you are bringing the image closer to you and larger, almost like a magnifying glass... so basically your "bokeh" also enlarges hence looking nicer. no??

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## hwchoy

bokeh is an immeasurable quality, it comes in grades such as eww, yucks, terrible, not bad, ok, nice, ooo, wow, creamy!, sibeh smooth, etc etc.  :Grin: 

yours (both cases) is some where near the beginning of the list 

if I may add, for a premium* constant /2.8 zoom (any constant fast zoom should be a premium lens) this bokeh would have struck it off my list right away. I mean why spend the money and lug the weight around to suffer this kind of performance?

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## trident

> bokeh is an immeasurable quality, it comes in grades such as eww, yucks, terrible, not bad, ok, nice, ooo, wow, creamy!, sibeh smooth, etc etc. 
> 
> yours (both cases) is some where near the beginning of the list


well, credit must be given to Tamron  :Blah: 
I didn't like it too, just wanted to see the difference with and without an extension tube.
Thanks for your comments  :Flame:

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## tcy81

wondering if canon's EFS 17-55mm f/2.8 bokeh will be good ?

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## hwchoy

> well, credit must be given to Tamron 
> I didn't like it too, just wanted to see the difference with and without an extension tube.
> Thanks for your comments


why give credit to tamron?

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## trident

they made the lens  :Laughing: 
or should it be  :Boo:

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## doubleace

Richard,
Correct me if I'm wrong.. I think if you want better bokeh f2 stop and below will be better than 2.8.

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## hwchoy

get rid of it ASAP!  :Grin: 




> Richard,
> Correct me if I'm wrong.. I think if you want better bokeh f2 stop and below will be better than 2.8.


what do you mean? the lens is only max /2.8

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## doubleace

> what do you mean? the lens is only max /2.8


I mean lens that with f2 and below will be better than lens with f2.8 stop.  :Grin:

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## benny

I would worry more about the portion of the image that is in focus that the other portion that is out of focus.

Cheers,

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## hwchoy

I would agree for photo documentation, but for photography it is the overall image that is important, which includes the out of focus porrtion.

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## trident

Andy,
Yes do agree that a bigger aperture will give a better bokeh, but most important is the built of the lens. The number of blades plays a very important part too. Choy will be able to explain further. Anyway the Tamron 17-50mm biggest aperture is f2.8.

Choy,
Get rid of it? No lah, no so rich.  :Laughing: 
I use this lens mainly for my company events, family gatherings, BBQ.....etc

Benny,
Thanks. Currently the overall image quality is important as the viewers are my boss, my wife, kids, office colleagues and relatives. And of course for them the image quality, which is the part in focus, is more important than the bokeh.

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## hwchoy

> And of course for them the image quality, which is the part in focus, is more important than the bokeh.




absolutely not. image quality is not just the part in focus. the layman do not realise the bad bokeh is affecting their perception of the overall image, but they can and will prefer the same subject with a nice bokeh over a bad one. bad bokeh distracts from the subject and fights for attention (just as in your example).

I mean if you want to just shoot casually then any lens will do, in fact a point and shoot might even do better, these days they have face recognition AF! but if you care about improving and learning photography then this is a very important consideration. once your eyes are trained to pick out bokeh you will realise what it is that has been bothering you about certain pictures, and why others are so "nice".


search this forum for bokeh, and google for it. there are a few very good articles in luminous landscape and such sites.

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## ranmasatome

Choy.. we all know what you are saying.. but you must also read..that richard said "FOR THEM...".

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## hwchoy

I know, I'm trying to help him ditch his lens  :Grin:  years later when he look back at his masses of precious pix with bad bokeh, he will thank me

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## mervin

> I know, I'm trying to help him ditch his lens  years later when he look back at his masses of precious pix with bad bokeh, he will thank me


AH yo !!!!!

HAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!  :Laughing:

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## StanChung

Bad Choy, down Choy! LOL. Although I agree with you!

Sorry Richard, if you're going for shot's like these where bokeh is an important artistic quality[ newly defined in grades of "eww, yucks, terrible, not bad, ok, nice, ooo, wow, creamy!, sibeh smooth,"] 

I would plan to get a better one in near future if you consider photography an artistic extension of your mind. [am I evil... :Evil: ]

Richard, If you use it only for functions I wouldn't be concerned as the quality is better than 'eww.' I've seen sharp 'O's lol.

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## Simon

at least find a better subject with a better background for the test. The test photo doesn't do justice to the lens

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## hwchoy

Stan, high five !!!

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## hwchoy

> I mean lens that with f2 and below will be better than lens with f2.8 stop.


this is not true, bokeh is a function of the "imperfection" in the image rendering characteristics of the lens. a large aperture lens can still have eww bokeh.

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## tcy81

any recommendations of a zoom lens with good bokeh ?

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## hwchoy

what focal range, max aperture and for what mount?

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## tcy81

For canon mount , max aperture f2.8, wide/standard zoom lens... so focal length less than 100mm ?

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## hwchoy

24-70/2.8L seems quite good. have not used any other brands. check out the Carl Zeiss and Lecia R lenses (Leica VARIO-ELMARIT-R 28-90mm ƒ/2.8-4.5 ASPH) too.

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## tcy81

thanks for the information.  :Smile: 
any good link for review the bokeh of different lenses ?

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## hwchoy

also check out the Leica VARIO-ELMARIT-R 35-70mm ƒ/2.8 ASPH and 35-70mm ƒ/4.

here's what Erwin Puts commented about the bokeh of the VARIO-ELMARIT-R 35-70mm ƒ/4



> The background blur at wider apertures is quite smooth and
> retains its main outlines and the gradient from sharp to unsharp
> has a gentle curve and is not too steep.


bokeh is something not usually discussed in reviews, possibly due to its immeasurable quality, or possibly due to it being much less appreciated by most. try to find sample images.

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## tcy81

will do a search for the images  :Smile:

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## StanChung

> Stan, high five !!!


LOL.

I think I want an 85 f1.2L. Comes in Nikon mount or not? heehee.

Ok i'll be a good boy and aim for a 85f1.4. 

Richard these two are very creamy/sibeh smooth-You'll rarely be shooting above f4 but alas not for shooting insects but portraits!

I heard the 135 f2 DC[defocus control] lens is also a great one for portraits, although I think the focal length is not good for crop factor cameras. I find it's a little long for Oriental faces. [flattening effect]

Simon, can tell a bit of the quality from the selecting one of the mid colour green rings and looking at the fringing and how sharp edged the circle is.

I don't think it's an 'ewww' but I think it's very mid-range 'ok'.

Richard, sorry to ask, if you can, do snap in manual mode out of focus street night scene on a tripod. Take a few snaps with varying degrees of defocus or focussing on different things. Put a doll in front of the scene perhaps. You can try other apertures and focal lengths. 
Then we can rate it.

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## hwchoy

word of caution, watch for the ewwwwww bokeh of the 18-200 kits lens that comes with the Alpha 100.

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## trident

Guys,
Thanks for all the reply really apprecaite it  :Smile: 

Stan,
I haven't done this kind of shot before 
"few snaps with varying degrees of defocus or focussing on different things."
Will this help to see the quality of the lens?  :Smile:

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## luenny

Think that's for looking at bokeh - which basically means OOF stuff. That's why you need to shoot defocus. I think Stan is right because I think bokeh changes with the focusing. If it's in focus, slightly out of focus, totally out of focus, it'll all change. 

Anyway, if you don't know how to see if the lens have good bokeh or not, I would say, don't worry too much about it. There's still so many aspect of photography that you can improve on for now. And if you really think the lens has bad bokeh and wants to get rid of it, give it to me, thank you.

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## hwchoy

get a row of bowling pins, or bottles, or glass, etc and line them up in a row and you frame them such that they stretch across your frame from left to right, left side nearer and right side further away. then you shoot it with the focus smack on the centre object, then the way the objects in front (to the left) and behind (to the right) of the in-focus object will show you how the lens renders the blurring.

shoot at different aperture settings (use Av mode) and also different distances from the subject.

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## benetay

I sense a great deal of Buy Buy Buy! 

 :Grin:  

50 f/1.2, 85 f/1.2, 135 f/2 

Cheers!

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## trident

> I sense a great deal of Buy Buy Buy! 
> 
>  
> 
> 50 f/1.2, 85 f/1.2, 135 f/2 
> 
> Cheers!


this is the dream "bokeh" team  :Smile: 
at least for me  :Grin:

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## doubleace

> I sense a great deal of Buy Buy Buy! 
> 
>  
> 
> 50 f/1.2, 85 f/1.2, 135 f/2 
> 
> Cheers!


wah all over 2k except 135f2 1k+.. :Opps:

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## benetay

Everything plus together  :Knockout: 

it's a dream.

Cheers!

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## hwchoy

you shouldn't buy them just because they have a nice bokeh. you buy them because you need them to deliver the picture you want. otherwise you would simply be a gear collector (which is a good thing because I get all my stuff from gear collectors on the cheap  :Grin:  )

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## benny

If you want to talk about bokeh, go read some reviews about the Leica Summicron 35mm f/2.0 in M mount. Or just goggle "King of Bokeh".

Cheers,

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## hwchoy

luckily I don't have M camera hahaha
I did download some sample pictures from various Leica lenses. I'll see if there is one from the M 35/2.0

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## benny

> luckily I don't have M camera hahaha


A temporal inconvenience that can be quickly remedied. When do you want to pick it up?

Cheers,

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## benetay

Not again. The temptation from Benny Vs Choy. 

King of Bokeh with a premium price. 

Cheers!

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## hwchoy

I &#183; M U S T &#183; R E S I S T &#183; ! ! !

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## benetay

Resistance is of no greater power. It's easier to pick it up. 

Cheers!

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## benny

> I · M U S T · R E S I S T · ! ! !


Why?

Cheers,

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## StanChung

I thought the classic-ness of the Leica M is sweet.
Saw some nasty pics from it on the net from such a fine camera+lens but I think it's the photographer isn't it?  :Grin: 

I'm hooked on digital at the moment. I can still ps the bokeh if I want to[or have to!] [Yes-I so desperately need to belong-sad isn't it?  :Opps: ]

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## benny

Stan,

There are also digital options for rangefinders. At this point in time, it's only restricted to the problematic Leica M8 and the defunct Epson R-D1/s.

Take your pick.

Cheers,

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## StanChung

I WILL RESIST!  :Grin: 

I want a D700...badly... :Very Happy:

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## benny

D700... I was playing with it the other day. Seems like quite a good camera as compared to D3. So many toys, so little time, too little money..... Sigh...

Cheers,

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## luenny

Oh, D700, I want too. Mass orders??  :Grin:

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## hwchoy

> I WILL RESIST!

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## trident

> I WILL RESIST! 
> 
> I want a D700...badly...


_RESISTANCE IS FUTILE !!!_
you have already been poisoned  :Grin:

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## StanChung

Dam n Benny-you have played with a D700 already? sigh. RM 8K+ does not suddenly drop from the heavens. Must work hard...

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## benny

> Dam n Benny-you have played with a D700 already? sigh. RM 8K+ does not suddenly drop from the heavens. Must work hard...


Yes I have. It's impressive. 

You want it. You know the new functions are well worth the extra moola. You need it. You will get it. It's inevitable. Resistance is futile. It will be yours. Why later when it can be sooner? Time is not our friend. There is no pleasure in denying yourself. 

Cheers,

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## hwchoy

Stan is an auto-masochist.

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## StanChung

OT OT OT! Help!  :Grin:

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## trident

Hi Guys,
Saw this thread on bokeh at cs, thought I share it here,
some awesome bokeh there.
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=402181

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## hwchoy

so are you ready to chuck your 17-50/2.8?  :Grin: 

actually I don't agree the ones in that thread are all good bokeh. in fact the first one from Planar T* 50mm f/1.4 is disastrous! most of the portraits ones are great (Nikkor 85/1.4 and CZ 135/2).

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## StanChung

Sharp eye! I think those with the sharp green/purple line on the OOF 'O's can be considered closer to eeeeww and those with melt your eyes kind is creamy sibeh sui.  :Grin: 

Crisscross line OOF's pics are harder to judge bokeh IMO.

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## luenny

> Dam n Benny-you have played with a D700 already? sigh. RM 8K+ does not suddenly drop from the heavens. Must work hard...


Buy buy buy ... it's impressive right??

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## StanChung

WOIT-OT!  :Grin:

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## hwchoy

> Sharp eye! I think those with the sharp green/purple line on the OOF 'O's can be considered closer to eeeeww and those with melt your eyes kind is creamy sibeh sui.



absolutely!

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## trident

agreed that some are disastrous, but the Nikkor 85/1.4 and CZ 135/2 are simply out of this world. eh, the cz girl also very pretty hoh  :Smile:

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