# General > AquaTalk >  Why do some LFS survive and some don't? What do we want to see in a good LFS?

## dkk08

Why do some LFS survive and some don't? What does it takes to be a successful LFS and how to keep going?

I'm just curious as I've seen some LFS which was famous for their uniqueness closed down or looks like on the verge of closing... just to name a few (hope I'm allowed to do that here) e.g. Chong Sua, Cichlid Forever, Reborn , Gratiola, Eco Culture... 

I've in the past even thought of setting up my own fish/pet shop in future but looking at how things have turn out for all these Fish Shops I'm sure I'm not the only one that's put off by the statistics...

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## Aquanoob

Some say that you need a Unique Selling Proposition (USP) to be successful in any business but when the product is almost the same for the entire sector and the market has no continuous demands together with the overheads that the business is suffering, it won't last long. Some LFS go for mass discount and a supermarket concept like Seaview and is doing well, while some carry a huge range of fishes and products in a small space like C328, Y934 and Y618. The margin in this business is low and nowadays with the marketplace around, I don't even need to buy fishes, plants, accessories from the LFS, I can simply buy from fellow hobbies here.

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## jwuog

To put forward my 2¢ worth  I feel the main problems facing LFS or any retailer locally are:

1) Rental
2) Small market

From what I read, retail rental is high coupled with low margins (I assume for aquarium products), you'd have to generate high dollar per square foot to break even, let alone turn a profit.

Which brings the second point, small market logically means low volume. Say your population is 5m, of this 0.5% is avid aquarist, that makes 25,000.

Say you have 100 aquarium shops + farms here, that makes 250 customers per shop  so assume these 250 hobbyists visit the shop once a month, can 250 customers sustain a shop? Now assume from each of these 250 people, the shop garners net $20 profit, that makes 5000$ net profit per month.

I just pull a figure $20 net profit because I hardly even spend more than that in a local fish store. A popular fish like cardinal tetra sells say $2. Say if the margin is 100%, the store has to sell 5000 cardinal tetras to net 5000$ profit. How many fish store can sell 5000 tetras in a month?

I believe c328 or Polyart are thriving because of history (been around for long time which leads to repeat customers), proximity to each other to create like a 'mini-hub' to draw in customers, and probably those guys own the store, ie. no rental.

I know the numbers and rationale are overly simplified, but if you think about it, the fish business downright smells rotten.  :Boo: 

As to what we want in a good LFS, it really depends. Some are into plecs, corys, aros, tetras, apistos. Naturally if someone is into plecs, a fish specializes in plecs will be best and heavenly but will have minimal interests to a betta lover. Or some are only into plants and scaping where fish are just a by product/support cast. You need volume/no. of hobbyist to sustain different 'concept' stores.

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## dkk08

The USP and what bro jwuog have mentioned are very interesting... I love the inputs so far... 

One question... does that mean that if I've the space at home to self bred my own livestocks and to stock products to sell online it would seem like a better idea then to rent a shop and do business?

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## Aquanoob

Desmond, we have people breeding Bettas, Cichlid, L series pleco before and now those few hundred dollars a piece Black King Kong shrimp, and it is quite doable from what you can see at the marketplace. No offence, but there maybe even full-time breeders making good bucks selling in the marketplace without registering as a merchant.

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## dkk08

> Desmond, we have people breeding Bettas, Cichlid, L series pleco before and now those few hundred dollars a piece Black King Kong shrimp, and it is quite doable from what you can see at the marketplace. No offence, but there maybe even full-time breeders making good bucks selling in the marketplace without registering as a merchant.


I've to agree with you on this part and I think I even know some of the full-time breeders of shrimps... hmmm

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## Mr.Oink

Rent will be the killer for all retailers. If your business is good, be prepared that the landlord will increase your rental.
Unless we are expecting a hit and run business. Come in with "odd balls" products eg. "luo han" or "bubble tea" pollute the market and make a run with the monies made or franchise it out.

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## zonkkie

Sometimes also need to reinvent yourself. I see shops that have not moved on with times... like those aquarium sitting in markets, selling basic lifestock and equipment. Bulk of the sales I see comes from selling feeders, tubifex worms to people keeping fishes nearby who buy on a daily basis. Minimal profits. 

Now aquascaping is pretty hot, so having a variety of plants and ferts and a beautiful moss tank helps to pull in customers + you can sell some of the moss as well. Or now there are a number of e-tailers who's delivery service is a boon to many aquarist who do not own cars - tanks, chillers, lightsets are all big and bulky.

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## shearerkk

Agreed with Aquanoob,

I was at Colourful a few days back and was chatting with Uncle Richard... and he commented that business is difficult nowadays.

With tightening custom policies, open market on the internet, it is getting very difficult for him. He even talk abt calling a quit in a few years time!!! Wow... if colourful being very successful alrdy in the LFS market call it a quit.... who else can survive?!?!?!




> Some say that you need a Unique Selling Proposition (USP) to be successful in any business but when the product is almost the same for the entire sector and the market has no continuous demands together with the overheads that the business is suffering, it won't last long. Some LFS go for mass discount and a supermarket concept like Seaview and is doing well, while some carry a huge range of fishes and products in a small space like C328, Y934 and Y618. The margin in this business is low and nowadays with the marketplace around, I don't even need to buy fishes, plants, accessories from the LFS, I can simply buy from fellow hobbies here.

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## dkk08

> Agreed with Aquanoob,
> 
> I was at Colourful a few days back and was chatting with Uncle Richard... and he commented that business is difficult nowadays.
> 
> With tightening custom policies, open market on the internet, it is getting very difficult for him. He even talk abt calling a quit in a few years time!!! Wow... if colourful being very successful alrdy in the LFS market call it a quit.... who else can survive?!?!?!


So I guess the internet is a creator and a destroyer so to speak... hmmmm maybe soon all LFS will become e-tailers?

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## Merviso

Desmond, I think what you have listed is the basic requirements for a LFS to do business.... Btw, service attitude of the staffs is an important factor too, especially in the case of turn off factors. 

For a LFS to do well, I believe that it is now important to continuously engage the customer, so as to know what is the latest trends and hypes. It is also important for the LFS bosses to start engaging customers in the new social media such as websites, forums and facebook. The more successful LFS now are those that are constantly publishing what are available stocks currently in their stores, and even sharing their fish importing list so that fish lovers can straight away give them indication what to import in the first place.

Think a few good example will be NKS, aquahobby & JZX - 津中秀... Just a few weeks ago, there is a huge craze with SA Cichlids, and my colleague everyday will ask me if I want to go with him to this few LFS because they got stock of this and that....  :Razz: .... 

Even better is to post nice photos and videos of the fish and make fish lovers wanting to own those fish....

Think the LFS must really evolved to pull customers to their shop instead of waiting for customers to drop by once in a blue moon....

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## dkk08

Hey Merv, ya you're right, the list is just some basic requirements as I'm sure there're many more where my 6 came from... which is the purpose of this thread... 

I do hope some of the remaining LFS/merchants/e-traders can learn from this thread as I'm sure many will agree with me that the Fish/Pet Hobbyist trade in Singapore is really going downhill, coupled with so many other external factors recently like Economy, Natural Disasters, Inflation, Civil Unrest in many countries and rising property prices in Singapore and around the region... 

I'm glad to see where this thread is going as I'm sure a lot of us are willing to give our insights or 2 cents worth in order to help upgrade or advance the Fish/Pet trade in Singapore... Perhaps our foreign friends who've flip through this thread can give us some of their insights as well...

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## stormhawk

IMO, it's all about time, money and basically, competition.

LFS have to compete not just with each other for customers, but also with fish farms that entertain walk-in customers and home breeders. For example, shrimps. There are many shrimp breeders in Singapore, with good quality shrimp for sale that can pretty much match or are better than what the LFS/farms can offer. Buyers are spoilt for choice as it is.

Always the usual, local hobbyists tend to see cost above anything else. Otherwise you would not have people asking for delivery on items to sell, especially small items, and the tendency to ask for discounts. Nothing wrong with that however, I do it too, but at times shoppers can be very persistent on their bargaining. The issue of rent, finding staff willing to work for not-so-awesome pay and long hours, feeding and housing livestock, clearing inventory of aquarium equipment, all these weigh heavily on the minds of the LFS owners. If there is no profitability to be made from this business, they would rather close shop and do something else, than to keep the shop open and bleed more money for the sake of a handful of customers.

When a home seller is selling mosses (for example) at lower prices and bigger quantities than a LFS does, why would a prospective buyer go to the LFS to purchase the moss? Therefore, any LFS without a steady stream of regular customers, will not survive very long, irregardless of what they are selling or are best in. This is why shops like CS, CF, Reborn, Gratiola all closed down eventually. Even in my area, the last LFS just closed down.

The Luohan era was a good example of the boom years for the local LFS scene. After the fad died down, how many LFS eventually closed down? Best example, there were 3 LFS along the same row as C328, the middle store selling Luohan and other assorted fish finally closed down. Specialising in a niche market, like cichlids, has it's ups and downs. The best thing an LFS can do at this point of time, is to sell livestock that are popular, and at good prices for bulk purchases. Hence the reason why more LFS tend to sell small fishes in bags of 30/50/100 pieces at a good price. This is better than selling 1-2 fish at a time.

LFS need to move with the times, hence the owner must be able to foresee how long a fad will last. Cash in while a craze is hot, then move along before the bubble bursts.

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## dkk08

The Fish shop at Ave 4 closed down already??

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## Shadow

Many fish shop close down, I wonder did we update our fish shop directory?

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## stormhawk

Desmond, I was referring to the LFS at West Ave 8 at a wet market near an NTUC branch. Passed by the place a few times in the day and at night, never open so I guess it's closed for good.

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## dkk08

oh I thought the one at Ave 4 closed down... 

And Yes it a good time to update our LFS directory...

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## zonkkie

Haha... Ang Mo Kio Ave 4 Lam Hong close down already... the one that sells Arowanas. Uncle is in ill health and the wife cannot run the shop alone. Shop is up for lease in case anyone is interested in opening a LFS? Near my house... I will support.

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## dkk08

> Haha... Ang Mo Kio Ave 4 Lam Hong close down already... the one that sells Arowanas. Uncle is in ill health and the wife cannot run the shop alone. Shop is up for lease in case anyone is interested in opening a LFS? Near my house... I will support.


Well not sure if you can do this but perhaps you can gather more info from the Uncle or his wife and post the info here or on other forums...

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## ivanthensf

Would a centralised concentration of LFS revive their profits? Like the Goldfish Street in Hong Kong, perhaps a dedicated row of shophouses with low rent only for aquatic shops and in an accessible and central part of Singapore? 

As it is for those without a car its very troublesome to drop by LFS let alone visit multiple ones to check out prices or offerings before buying. Thats why I usually plan a trip after work since its on the way.

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## Emokidz

I doubt so. There are no rent subsidies for aquatic shops available and rental costs in central districts are much higher than in the heartlands. Also, the market for aquarium livestock and products here is smaller than in HK, Taiwan or Japan.

Also, just want to add on a little analysis of the poll results. One of the main reasons (from vote results) why LFSs don't succeed is uniqueness. Then again, when LFSs bring in oddballs and rare fish, the prices are more expensive due to the higher costs of obtaining, shipping them here and the risk involved. And price then becomes a reason for those LFSs not succeeding because not many people are willing to pay. This is usually the case for great LFSs like Ecoculture.

I'd like to add another option to the poll -> The Singaporean mentality: Want good stuff, *BUT* not willing to pay... and then complain about it.

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## RonWill

> ...and price then becomes a reason for those LFSs not succeeding because not many people are willing to pay. This is usually the case for great LFSs like *Ecoculture*


 oh man... I've not heard that name mentioned in a long long time. When it was 'alive', that was one of my favorite hangout with all my kakis, from Eminent Plaza to Serangoon Road (when in Cichlids Forever) and later to Macpherson's Sera Centre!! The operator was more a hobbyist... but a lousy businessman... how to earn money liddat???  :Grin:

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## Emokidz

Yup! Many still reminisce about this "holy grail" of wild betta shops in the Anabantoids thread, not really much mention around the forum as a whole though. Can still remember how great it was back then. Used to pop by after school (was in secondary school then), but couldn't afford to buy though.. pocket money didn't allow : ( 

Now that I'm more financially independant though, it's gone! >:O

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## dkk08

> oh man... I've not heard that name mentioned in a long long time. When it was 'alive', that was one of my favorite hangout with all my kakis, from Eminent Plaza to Serangoon Road (when in Cichlids Forever) and later to Macpherson's Sera Centre!! The operator was more a hobbyist... but a lousy businessman... how to earn money liddat???


Wow guess I'm an even older fan, followed them when they were at the Roxy Square, haha the operator is a honest young man so maybe hobbyist tend to help hobbyist... But he's a great paluscapist (paludarium scapist)

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## dkk08

What do you guys think of a Fish Tank Gallery? A shop showcasing 3-4 tank setups and 1-2 tank of monster fish, targeting Mid-High end market? Do you think it will work? Target customers are expats living in the area as the shop should be located in town... office workers as the shop may have nano tanks, corporate clients as well as even tourists?

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## RonWill

> What do you guys think of a Fish Tank Gallery? A shop showcasing 3-4 tank setups...


 Don't quite understand what you mean, Desmond. Are you thinking of highlighting different setups from LFS? Might work, if the intention is to focus on efforts of shop operators to spice up their retail tanks and give general hobbyists more ideas for setting up, then it's do-able but if it borders on promoting, then I think it's best to hear what the admins have to say first... yooohooo... Vincent, Simon...  :Grin:

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## limwsv

No. Centralization will only increase volume by pulling more customer into the same area, eg trade streets in Hanoi selling nothing but product from that trade.
As you yourself as correctly identified, it will increase price competition and reduce margins as customer get to do price comparison easily.

However, in the recent years, volume is static since the number of fish-keepers are fairly constant. No benefits to shop-keepers to stick into one area and suffer reduce margin.
Example, Sim Lim Square computer parts shops has been dying since volume has fallen off.

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## Nicky

Any business, unless running on a bottomless pit and supported by people who has too much money to burn, will not be a charitable organisation. That said, the few popular ex-LFS that were mentioned all have some common "business model", ie, the operator is too much of a hobbist. The shops' presence, when they were around, were a good thing for hobbists; we have somewhere to go after work and we meet to chat or sell our excesses. But seriously and not kidding ourselves.. how many hobbists are there in Singapore that consistently not mind paying premium for similar things that cost lesser in other LFS ?

To have a few display tanks will definitely means using up precious footprint for non money-generating venture. What is the payback for those investment? Do we really think many hobbists who are impressed with the tanks will fork out the money to buy from that shop that does the display, or will most people copy the idea and layout, and go somewhere else to buy after fishing out all the setup requirement?

Unless the mindset of the majority of the hobbists change and we decide to support (read: BUY from) the LFS that allows us to sit around, have a coffee and gather to chat, those "good" LFS of the past will forever exist only in our memories.

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## dkk08

Ok I sense the general feeling of the masses here I guess... the fish trade and aquarium industry in Singapore is already in the decline and may continue to drop further or its staying stagnant until another craze or trend comes into play, if not nothing much can be done and for those Hobbyist turn LFS owner or intend to turn LFS owner should consider twice or thrice...

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## Emokidz

> Unless the mindset of the majority of the hobbists change and we decide to support (read: BUY from) the LFS that allows us to sit around, have a coffee and gather to chat, those "good" LFS of the past will forever exist only in our memories.


 I think this is most likely the harsh reality. Sigh

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## RonWill

> Unless the mindset of the majority of the hobbists change and we decide to support (read: BUY from) the LFS that allows us to sit around, have a coffee and gather to chat, those "good" LFS of the past will forever exist only in our memories.


 Nicky, a paradigm shift is unlikely hence "the good old days". It is uncertain what the future will hold for LFS (and other sectors as well) but I'm blessed to have those memories of a cosy LFS with many inspiring aqua-scapes, a small library and surfing off a Mac for more fishy info. They may not be the cheapest blokes in town but it was worth every [email protected] penny!

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## dnsfpl

to me, healthy livestock is the most important, followed by competitive pricing

cheers

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## stormhawk

Usual mindset is, store that sells cheapest is "best". But people end up spending more just making a trip down to that LFS, when a nearby LFS where they live, has what they need, at a slightly higher price. Like dnsfpl, I too agree that healthy livestock is more important than cost.

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## sungod666

chance upon this old thread here. To me the most important traits of visiting an LFS is the quality of equipment and products they bring in and whether it has easy access to carpark. i go mainly seaview and C328. they have all the european and US items i need and rare fishes especially C328. Carpark is just on the doorstep as well. Been to Y934 aquastar after hearing so much about it. it was a huge disappointment. it was filled with cheap china equipment and nothing special on the livestock. what a waste to have so much shop space and ample parking.

For marine, coral farm at LCK is the way to go. HUGE HUGE place and so much livestock. all those that you cant find in small scale LFS, ample parking as well. if CF is reading this, please place some vending machine at your farm. in the middle of lim chu kang and i cant get any soda on a afternoon!

Actually qianhu retail concept is the way to go, ample parking, huge retail space, lots of livestock, nicely decorated, located in a quiet area so getting there without traffic jam and created more of a shopping experience rather than a shopping trip. BUT its prices is not in line with other retailers! i go there to see what new fish they have and ask C328 to order.

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## stormhawk

At times, the quality of livestock at C328, especially their health, leaves much to be desired. However, in terms of equipment alone, C328 is the best in the western region. Still, it's closest rival Polyart, has stuff that C328 doesn't sell, so it's win-win for them.

I do agree with the comments on Aquastar. I used to drop by there during my NS days and needless to say, it was a letdown.

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## ZackZhou

Haha, aquastar's rich Boss opens y934 as a hobby. I think that's what happens when you do not keep up with the current trend.  :Smile:

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## zonkkie

Agree that aquastar, with the space that they have available.... could do more to enhance the shopping experience. But they still have a lot of customers!

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## stormhawk

Well they do sell a lot of things. Great for customers who couldn't care less about brand A or B or X.  :Laughing:  The last time I was there, I found a canister of dry food that had already expired.  :Knockout:

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## barmby

I grew up with Lam Hong. I guess things change inevitably .......................................

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## stormhawk

I remember Lam Hong too. It was the first LFS I saw live "boon" at.  :Laughing:  

And I still remember seeing Chocolate Gourami in one of the old school tanks.

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## barmby

I used to go there almost everyday from 1980~1990. I will pop in there whenever I go "downstairs" to buy food/cigarette (for my dad)/small single item grocery/tubifex worm. Marlboro soft pack was $2.20 then. haaa... I stay in AMK Ave 4 Blk 170. I was cruel then. I always scoop one glass shrimp and throw it into those yellow or blue cichlids tanks and see them hunt and tear up the shrimp like almost resident evil style. they were small but very lethal. Of cos, i only do that when auntie is around only. uncle toh quite fierce to me.

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## edw7636

Mine I guess will be location and wide variety of items and lastly price although price might be cheaper be a few dollar so not really important compared to the lesser 2.

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## bluebubbles

I would think the following 3 factors are important in ranking:-

First - Variety of stocks

This will create a complete one-shop-everything experience. Even if the location is not convenient, it will not deter people who own cars. Those who don't may well make some efford to patronise the store if they can. 

2nd - Service

Friendly, knowledgeable and flexible. Shortage of any of it will kill the customer shopping experience. 

3rd - location

Thought it is ranked 3rd, it certainly help to draw crowds from all walks of life whether they are people who keep aquarium or not. If property can fetch high prices build on convenient transport/central area, same logic apply to shop owners. 

If the above 3 can be met, rest assured the lfs will thrive or at least sustained their business. So far, I think C328 managed the above 3 pretty well.

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## takaco

To me
its price,location,stocks they have,customer service

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## RonWill

> its price,location,stocks they have,customer service


 ...then you're probably amongst the new generation of hobbyists who'll do best with online shopping for the lowest prices, where the only form of customer service is just prompt response and shipping.

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## stormhawk

Even with online shopping, what you get may not be what you paid for.  :Evil:

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## RonWill

so... now, we need to see, touch and fiddle with the actual product one wanted, and still at the lowest price???

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## mincedmeat

Customers these days are price sensitive and may not want to pay extra for something they can get elsewhere, though sometimes I would think they are penny wise pound foolish - especially if they have to go the distance to get something at a cheaper price. I recently started on the hobby of bettas and aquascaping so I was on the look out for convenient places with good stock of fauna/flora and equipment that are reasonably price. By means of reasonable price means within budget. I have been to C328, Y618, Y934 Aquastar, Seaview, Green Chapter and I must say they each have their own specialties. I don't particularly like Y934 (no offense to the shop owner here), but the materials and livestock they carry don't appeal to me. They don't maximise their floor space either and things are all over the place, yet people still visit and buy things from them. I was just there yesterday to get an item (the others around were closed for CNY, so there's wasn't much of a choice for me) and it really confirmed my suspicion that the owner is more of a hobbyist than a businessman. 

Nonetheless, I do think convenience tops my list, and then the variety of items. Customer service would take 3rd spot because most people would already have known what they need/want and just need some sort of assurance from an experience hand to assure them.

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## stormhawk

Penny wise pound foolish is an apt description of the majority of hobbyists. They fret over the smallest price difference, but spend 5-10 times more on transport options, be it with their own transport or with public transport.

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## armourshrimp36

C328 is my best place too buy my stuff.. They got lots of staff.. And boss will give discount sometime.. I stay at east, i drive a cab.. So.. Many place i can exp.. And y618 is good too

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## Mystikboy

i am currently a student, thinking of entering into the LFS market
i think a 'USP' or unique selling proposition is difficult to introduce into such a saturated market. 
Moreover, it is difficult to profit from targeting a specific interest group, or a specific area of aquaria, isn't it?
seems like diversifying is the only way to make ends meet.

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## youdontknowme

more beautiful discus is what i would like to seee  :Jump for joy:

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## sabre09

I think the reputation is another key for survival.. when I first started the hobby.. I asked around for good LFS.. which one sells the cheapest equipment.. which one sells the cheapest livestock.. which one offers the best variety etc.. I don't go directory to search for them.. I ask ppl... I think it's the ppl to ppl introduction that is vital.. so when more ppl got to know abt the LFS.. they share them via forums like AQ.. also most of the LFS don't advertise.. so how did hobbyist get to know them?? through ppl.. forums..?

What we wanna see in them really depends on what we are looking for... like I mentioned.. each LFS has their "specialized area of interest".

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## dddolphin

every store has its own strength and weakness. i personally visit C328 very often, but most of the time just buying feeders and replacement equipment (eheim media, pump) and find their pricing very competitive. however, when it comes to livestock like arowana, i still like to go to specialist as their stocks are more appealing. we have to admit that no lfs has best of all.

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## Jenson

> to me, healthy livestock is the most important, followed by competitive pricing
> 
> cheers


Just want to highlight for some LFS, though they might have cheaper pricing but that doesn't mean their livestock are healthy, and I noticed some always lelong their livestock as even feeder fishes or just to clear the stock usually have unhealthy livestock

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## Jenson

...and to be honest I personally also find that Y618 better than Y934. And I guess most ppl only visit Y418 for their feeders? Sorry no offense to any LFS owners here, just to share so that they can explore more to improve business and sustain in the local market

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## mincedmeat

It's also because Y934 owners don't keep the place clean so people don't fancy going there as compared to Y618 where there's better management of goods and livestocks, at least in my opinion.

Not forgetting also that Y618 allows for NETS payment for purchases so I don't need to worry if I don't have enough cash with me.

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## David

@dkk08.....you starting one?..... :Wink:

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## Jenson

> @dkk08.....you starting one?.....


I will support too  :Smile:

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## Jenson

> It's also because Y934 owners don't keep the place clean so people don't fancy going there as compared to Y618 where there's better management of goods and livestocks, at least in my opinion.
> 
> Not forgetting also that Y618 allows for NETS payment for purchases so I don't need to worry if I don't have enough cash with me.


Not to mention their pricing (Y61 :Cool:  is very reasonable and I even saw a lot of customers at night. They open until very late! Saw somewhere stated 10.30am - 10.30pm daily  :Smile: 

I also noted they accept American Express?

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## eddy planer

> @dkk08.....you starting one?.....


My dear ddk08 has already started EPPA online and still doing it however, he's still work full time at gym management

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## CCT

If a LFS is not doing well, it cant be 1 stop for hobbyist, unless they are loaded, but if they are wont do lfs business. Hmm i think eventually just the few player left but other than that will be online sales.

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## tropic

In any business...word of mouth from satisfied customer is important. You can have fantastic products & couple with good location etc..eventually its the people that serving the customers that make the whole buying experience and keeps them coming back.

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## skytan

And sometimes is the pple and the shop itself is it comfy enough
i dun mind paying abit more for these factors provided I cannot get cheaper from online 

in another scenario , some of the things you can get online its is just the lead time only and more often than not online buying is cheaper with promos or free shipping to SG .

so it's the livestock ,comfy and service that makes you part with your money. 
But of course if you are getting a ehiem and its 30% cheaper I will go around the island for it but not for 2 dollars off a bottle of ada

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## RenesisTurbo

I read Practical Fishkeeping magazine from England regularly and when I look at the British LFS scene,it seems that British LFS are thriving or doing well and I was wondering why our LFS close down one by one while the British LFS are doing well in business and even venturing into other aspects of fishkeeping business.

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## AQMS

Rental here is freaking expensive,even when they say rental is down.

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## Griffith DreamWalker

Reasons why fish shops are closing down? Very simple. Firstly, the reason why many fish shops were opened was due to the craze on arowannas, flowerhorns and such fortune fish. Many who saw this took the opportunity to set up shop simply to earn money, whithout care nor concern for the fishes. 90% of the NON SPECIALISED fish shops in Singapore therefore have little no proper information on the real care of their critters, chalking up death and damage due to being 'unlucky' or the fish is 'old'. I have seen this many times with various fish shops and pet fish owners who also think that due to the fact that they rear/kept fishes before gives them infinite knowledge to the hobby. This causes misinformation and trouble for many who are just to lazy to throughly read up on the pet they're keeping. Which then leads to a tank crashing and the person being put off fishes(and may tell their friends & family on the horror of fish) then they'll all go off to rear some other pet. Like a dog for example. 

Rearing fishes is just like caring for any other pet, its not a 'hassle-free' job unless you all want a tank of dead fish. Don't smoke, use strong fumes/perfumes or even alcohol near fishes as they'll be affected. But not everyone know nor cares do they?

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## tetrakid

> Reasons why fish shops are closing down? Very simple. Firstly, the reason why many fish shops were opened was due to the craze on arowannas, flowerhorns and such fortune fish. Many who saw this took the opportunity to set up shop simply to earn money, whithout care nor concern for the fishes. 90% of the NON SPECIALISED fish shops in Singapore therefore have little no proper information on the real care of their critters, chalking up death and damage due to being 'unlucky' or the fish is 'old'. I have seen this many times with various fish shops and pet fish owners who also think that due to the fact that they rear/kept fishes before gives them infinite knowledge to the hobby. This causes misinformation and trouble for many who are just to lazy to throughly read up on the pet they're keeping. Which then leads to a tank crashing and the person being put off fishes(and may tell their friends & family on the horror of fish) then they'll all go off to rear some other pet. Like a dog for example. 
> 
> Rearing fishes is just like caring for any other pet, its not a 'hassle-free' job unless you all want a tank of dead fish. Don't smoke, use strong fumes/perfumes or even alcohol near fishes as they'll be affected. But not everyone know nor cares do they?


Perhaps I might also add the recent 'shrimp craze' to the list. It does appear to me that many LFSs are depending on shrimps as their main lifeblood.
I totally agree with you that keeping fish requires a lot of dedication and the commitment to do it.

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## RenesisTurbo

Some things I respect about British,US or Australian LFS is

-Not pushy in sales.
-Quite well educated about their livestock or equipment that they are selling.
-Keen to build up their r/s with their customer base.
-Shop is neat and well organized.
-They generally take care of their livestock well.

Our LFS has a long way to go compared with them.

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## Urban Aquaria

> Some things I respect about British,US or Australian LFS is
> 
> -Not pushy in sales.
> -Quite well educated about their livestock or equipment that they are selling.
> -Keen to build up their r/s with their customer base.
> -Shop is neat and well organized.
> -They generally take care of their livestock well.
> 
> Our LFS has a long way to go compared with them.


We actually do have LFS in Singapore which can match most of those points... places like Green Chapter, Fishy Business, Aquatic Avenue, Aquarist Chamber etc. They offer good professional service, quality products and healthy livestock, but all that comes with premium price tags too.

On the other-hand, there will always still be those traditional small neighborhood LFS that have limited low-quality item selection with unhealthy livestock, run by shop keepers who have outdated knowledge and just push cheap products. Those place still exist because locals are willing to endure dodgy advice, poor service and half-dead livestock (and even spend time traveling from one end of singapore all the way to the other) just to save a few dollars.  :Grin:

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## RenesisTurbo

> We actually do have LFS in Singapore which can match most of those points... places like Green Chapter, Fishy Business, Aquatic Avenue, Aquarist Chamber etc. They offer good professional service, quality products and healthy livestock, but all that comes with premium price tags too.
> 
> On the other-hand, there will always still be those traditional small neighborhood LFS that have limited low-quality item selection with unhealthy livestock, run by shop keepers who have outdated knowledge and just push cheap products. Those place still exist because locals are willing to endure dodgy advice, poor service and half-dead livestock (and even spend time traveling from one end of singapore all the way to the other) just to save a few dollars.


I actually boycotted a few places when I was living in Tiong Bahru and Redhill last time.Now as a resident in the north, I only visit Y618,C328 or Seaview for livestock or supplies.

One of the places I boycotted is former Yishun Aquastar cos the owner bo-chap about answering the enquiries of customers and Yishun Polyart cos the PRC guy know nuts about his products and always direct me to a local old uncle who is always busy serving customers.And their livestock is just so so.Pet peeve about Y618 and C328 is they seldom stock platies like what Seaview always does.So I do visit Seaview a lot often.

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## Jenson

by the way is Aquastar closed permanently now? I think if their equipments and assesories are cheap and affordable and we as a hobbyist can tell a quality live stock and etc ourselves we can just treat Aquastar as a source of resources for ourselves and we can just ignore the bochap people there. think many of us has similar experiences with Aquastar before. Y618 sometimes do carry cheaper items I need. but I frequent Y618 as it's nearer to me and it's also my kids' favourite place as the owners there are friendly to customers and kids. I always see a lot of people there. I wonder who's going to take over such a nice and friendly lfs next time when they finally retire from the business 

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## RenesisTurbo

> by the way is Aquastar closed permanently now? I think if their equipments and assesories are cheap and affordable and we as a hobbyist can tell a quality live stock and etc ourselves we can just treat Aquastar as a source of resources for ourselves and we can just ignore the bochap people there. think many of us has similar experiences with Aquastar before. Y618 sometimes do carry cheaper items I need. but I frequent Y618 as it's nearer to me and it's also my kids' favourite place as the owners there are friendly to customers and kids. I always see a lot of people there. I wonder who's going to take over such a nice and friendly lfs next time when they finally retire from the business 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


Aquastar taken over by Polyart...I think Y618 is a family business,can see some youngsters helping out in the shop.

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## Griffith DreamWalker

> Perhaps I might also add the recent 'shrimp craze' to the list. It does appear to me that many LFSs are depending on shrimps as their main lifeblood.
> I totally agree with you that keeping fish requires a lot of dedication and the commitment to do it.


True, however, the shrimp craze is a recent thing compared to the fortune bringing fish like arowana, which is why Qian Hu used to make such a killing during the old days. I myself dislike rearing Asian Arowana due to the fact that they're a) endangered, b) boring. Many people who rear Arowana tend to leave it in a too small and 100% bare tank, which honestly(has got to be one of the ugliest displays) I've ever seen. I get that one dosen't have the space to put other decorations, but then again, if you can provide a fully furnished home for such large fish properly.... don't get them.

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## tetrakid

> True, however, the shrimp craze is a recent thing compared to the fortune bringing fish like arowana, which is why Qian Hu used to make such a killing during the old days. I myself dislike rearing Asian Arowana due to the fact that they're a) endangered, b) boring. Many people who rear Arowana tend to leave it in a too small and 100% bare tank, which honestly(has got to be one of the ugliest displays) I've ever seen. I get that one dosen't have the space to put other decorations, but then again, if you can provide a fully furnished home for such large fish properly.... don't get them.


Yup, putting an adult Arowana in a limited-sized tank is no different from putting goldfish in a glass bowl, or for that matter, keeping a bird in a small cage.

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## Griffith DreamWalker

> Yup, putting an adult Arowana in a limited-sized tank is no different from putting goldfish in a glass bowl, or for that matter, keeping a bird in a small cage.


True. Goldfishes kept in small bowls grow up into goldfishes with bent, 'S'-shaped spines. Also many people keep bettas in squalid conditions. I get that bettas don't need much space nor a bubbler, but really guys? Keeping a poor fish in a cup without changing its water frequently is like solitary confinment without toilets or bath.... till the day you die. I've seen many shops all over Singapore selling bettas in dirty, small tanks. A big no no for me, especially when they obviously don't care for the creature's wellbeing. Keeping a betta in a one gallon glass jar with frequent water changes and entertainment is okay. Keeping them in filthy, small plastic containers is just. No. Today I went out to a fish store. There were some bags of bettas and beside them there were smaller bags with green water in it. I was wondering whether the lady was selling 'green water' and asked her so. She told me no as "There was a fighting fish in there." Needless to say I was horrified at the fishs' living conditions. By the way, there really was a dying betta in there with plenty of mulm.

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## tetrakid

> True. Goldfishes kept in small bowls grow up into goldfishes with bent, 'S'-shaped spines............


Goldfish are ideally kept in a pond or a goodly sized tub.

But when kept in an optimally-sized fish tank which is not too small, it also offers much opportunity for them to develop their 'acrobatic skills'.
In time, they would have mastered the skill of manoeuvring themselves expertly within that restrictive tank after the appropriate muscles are seasoned.

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## Griffith DreamWalker

> Goldfish are ideally kept in a pond or a goodly sized tub.
> 
> But when kept in an optimally-sized fish tank which is not too small, it also offers much opportunity for them to develop their 'acrobatic skills'.
> In time, they would have mastered the skill of manoeuvring themselves expertly within that restrictive tank after the appropriate muscles are seasoned.



Yep, however keeping goldfish in Elmo's 'Goldfish Bowl' will cause bent spines. Also remember that more fragile varieties like the bubble eye will not be able to thrive in the restrictive tank but will do better in good sized tanks.

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## tetrakid

> Yep, however keeping goldfish in Elmo's 'Goldfish Bowl' will cause bent spines. Also remember that more fragile varieties like the bubble eye will not be able to thrive in the restrictive tank but will do better in good sized tanks.


Goldfish bowls are absolutely a no-no for goldfish! It' s the worst thing for putting goldfish in.
Maybe it's suitable for a Betta.

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## Jenson

you won't be surprised there are still LFS telling new hobbyist to keep them them in a goldfish bowl and some would tell you for fengshui, some geomancer would still recommend that (if u believe in fengshui)

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## Griffith DreamWalker

Goldfish Bowls aren't suitable for any type of fish. There's no way for it to be 'back against the wall' like a typical tank nor is there any space to add a betta with live plants comfortably. Maybe keeping some ornamental snails or other dwarf shrimp would be better in such a small tank... 

Really Jenson? Well that's honestly no surprise to me , considering that majority of fish shops in Singapore are all do not have the proper knowledge for fish care. Rearing/Selling aquatic fauna and flora for decades in a 'family business' dosen't mean that one knows the proper care and management for them unlike someone who may have half the experience but reads and employs the correct information and techniques in the aquatic hobby. However many fools choose to believe that _age_ and _experience_ means everything, which is total BS. 

((Hey guys, have you wondered whether Elmo's goldfish is just one fish, or many replacements once one dies/grows? Here's a hint, the first one's a lie))

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## tetrakid

> Goldfish Bowls aren't suitable for any type of fish. There's no way for it to be 'back against the wall' like a typical tank nor is there any space to add a betta with live plants comfortably. Maybe keeping some ornamental snails or other dwarf shrimp would be better in such a small tank... 
> 
> Really Jenson? Well that's honestly no surprise to me , considering that majority of fish shops in Singapore are all do not have the proper knowledge for fish care. Rearing/Selling aquatic fauna and flora for decades in a 'family business' dosen't mean that one knows the proper care and management for them unlike someone who may have half the experience but reads and employs the correct information and techniques in the aquatic hobby. However many fools choose to believe that _age_ and _experience_ means everything, which is total BS. ....


Experience is bad, if one has been doing the wring things all the while

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## Jenson

experiences are not necessary bad if it's the real experiences based on great track records. but no writing/talking without real experiences to back with. one can easily copy and paste people's experiences without even tried or applied on their fishes before (worse is when you realize they don't even keep those fishes or never keep one before, at all). experiences speak for themselves , but not how long you've been into this hobby for any particular fish variety. But still, all these doesn't mean everything. the one that never stop learning and sharing is the one that means at least something to the community of this hobby.

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## tetrakid

> Experience is bad, if one has been doing the wring things all the while


That should be: Experience is bad, if one has been doing the wrong things all the while.

The trick is to learn from the wrong experience. Yes, learning never stops.

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## Griffith DreamWalker

What tetra and I are saying is that using the wrong information and methods for years and counting it as 'experience' is of no actual use to anyone. Reading and believing is possible if the person sharing the info has an offical track record and concrete proof on how to care for whatever creature you're interested in. Like everything else nowadays, anything can be falsified(like you said, copy 'n' paste). However, a decent aquarist with a year of experience will not match up with another decent aquarist with half a decade of experience. Sharing what you've learnt also depends on what community you're in. One can successfully admit that more than 70% of fish keepers in Singapore could honestly care less and have 'selective hearing' whenever someone tells them their mistake.

Just like I've seen a fish shop purposely covering the top of their betta containers-without any holes in said cover. The fish was already dead/dying but I did not tell the assistants working there as many think of people who bring their aquatic pets wellbeing into question are generally overexaggerating. Which is absolutely untrue. I attempted to tell them on other stuff before and they were saying things like," I know, I know." Then once I come by again expecting some change, everything's still the same. Algae on the walls, gravel and stuff, with planaria running amok. Let me tell you all, the planaria are all a good 1 inchers-I kid you not. Talk about 'sharing' when no one listens.

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## Jenson

from the wrong practices and without knowing why it is so. and when things go wrong not knowing why and being told the false information, then one believe it and faithfully follow the wrong remedies which doesn't help. the stories go on and on

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## Jenson

> What tetra and I are saying is that using the wrong information and methods for years and counting it as 'experience' is of no actual use to anyone. Reading and believing is possible if the person sharing the info has an offical track record and concrete proof on how to care for whatever creature you're interested in. Like everything else nowadays, anything can be falsified(like you said, copy 'n' paste). However, a decent aquarist with a year of experience will not match up with another decent aquarist with half a decade of experience. Sharing what you've learnt also depends on what community you're in. One can successfully admit that more than 70% of fish keepers in Singapore could honestly care less and have 'selective hearing' whenever someone tells them their mistake.
> 
> Just like I've seen a fish shop purposely covering the top of their betta containers-without any holes in said cover. The fish was already dead/dying but I did not tell the assistants working there as many think of people who bring their aquatic pets wellbeing into question are generally overexaggerating. Which is absolutely untrue. I attempted to tell them on other stuff before and they were saying things like," I know, I know." Then once I come by again expecting some change, everything's still the same. Algae on the walls, gravel and stuff, with planaria running amok. Let me tell you all, the planaria are all a good 1 inchers-I kid you not. Talk about 'sharing' when no one listens.


understood. Maybe I comprehend them wrongly.My apologies. A lot of fish shops might not give a damn.

is it only singapore or across the SEA regions for their LFS too?

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## tetrakid

> understood. Maybe I comprehend them wrongly. My apologies. A lot of fish shops might not give a damn.
> 
> is it only Singapore or across the SEA regions for their LFS too?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


I suppose the LFS people have other priorities and considerations too, such as manpower constraints, profitability, for example.
Being in a business which is generally unprofitable, especially the smaller outfits, I can understand their predicament. 
But the larger LFS generally do have better quality upkeep of their lifestock.

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## Griffith DreamWalker

> understood. Maybe I comprehend them wrongly.My apologies. A lot of fish shops might not give a damn.
> 
> is it only singapore or across the SEA regions for their LFS too?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


I cannot say for sure as I have never been to other countries for the purpose of checking out their shops though I once passed by a fish shop in Taiwan that was selling aquatic fauna in filthy conditions. Not sure about places like Malaysia or Indonesia, but I suspect that Japan's local fish shops keep their pets in good condition as Japanese pride themselves on cleanliness and presentation. (Not to mention that Japanese are famous for their pricey koi)




> I suppose the LFS people have other priorities and considerations too, such as manpower constraints, profitability, for example.
> Being in a business which is generally unprofitable, especially the smaller outfits, I can understand their predicament. 
> But the larger LFS generally do have better quality upkeep of their lifestock.


In a sense, I guess that's true, but then again- even if one has so many constraints and problems, it does not give them a right to be dishonest or ignorant on the customers/fish. The fish are the ones that will pay for the shop owners' neglect and lies with their lives, not the sellers. Also, larger LFS may not have better stock all the time. There are some larger LFS who have branches but said branches are all neglected and have diseased and dying fishes in them. I know of one such LFS with dying and dull-coloured fishes.

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## AQFan

I think nowadays with the availability of on-line ordering, LFS need to be really on top on their knowledge and service. The biggest thing is really aquarium servicing and custom work. If you are an LFS that does not offer this, then you do not have much to compete with on-line stores. Other trends I have seen lately have been really upscale looking LFS catering to high-end aquariums and custom work with showrooms. I saw such an LFS in Dallas and it was amazing.

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## barmby

Do you have the web link to the LFS in Dallas?

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