# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  hatching killies

## flowerhorn

Hello, im new to this forum, im from Kuala Lumpur. I'm also new to killies. 
Today, by chance, i got 10 eggs from Mr. Loh who was conducting a seminar regarding planted tank.

I know nothing about this fish. I thought of trying it out sincei got the eggs. I managed to speak to Mr. Loh briefly. I got it in a small bottle with 10 eggs in methylene blue solution. It is suppose to hatch in 10 days. According to Mr. Loh, i only need to dilute the solution daily till it hatch. 

My question; i read in the website that the eggs are hatched in some peat moss right? why don't i need to do it?

what temperature should i maintain? thanks in advance

----------


## TyroneGenade

Dear "Flowerhorn"

We like to refer to people by real names here, it just makes the forum more personal (and easier to track down heretics and burn down their homes).

What Mr. Loh must of given you were eggs of _Aphyosemion australe_ as shown here.

These eggs will incubate in water and hatch when they are ready without any interferance from your part other than diluting the methylene blue. Peat moss is not needed for this species (nor for many other species).

Keep the eggs at a constant temperature. If you have a space with a temperature of about 24 to 25°C that would be perfect. 

I suggest you setup a shallow tray with some moss or fern and use water from this tray to dilute the Methule blue. Then when the eggs hatch you can simply empty them into the tray and use it to rear the fry for the first few days.

The fry will need micro worm or baby brine shrimp on hatching but if you have a fair sized chunck of moss they should be able to feed themselves on the infusoria for the 1st few days while you setup the brine shrimp hatchery or obtain a source of small _Daphnia_.

Good luck with your first killies!

----------


## flowerhorn

Dear, TyroneGenade. Thank you for your reply, thus allowing me to gain a little more knowledge in the subject. I also must apologise for not stating my name. I hope its not too late. 

I'm Stephen. Apart from learning more about this species, i also keep discus and gold fish. I plan to set up a planted aquarium as well once i gather enough information. Thanks

----------


## keehoe

Hi, first of all welcome to the forum. Here is our regular place for meeting friends and making new friends. We all address each other with real name. So it is a general guideline to use real name or signoff each post with real name. To avoid getting into any flame etc please read the forum's guideline.

Killie consist of several hundred of species. It really depends on which species he gave you. Some would only hatch with peat moss. Some with low PH. Some with high PH. Some need more CO2. Some need more O2. Some need higher water pressure. Only the person experienced with the particular strain can tell you the most.

I think generally temperature 26-28C and PH 6.8 (with peat moss) and put some java moss would be quite save. But hatching and keeping is different thing. Most killie prefer colder water, 25-26 should be ok. 28, should survife. (25-26C, egg will develope slowly). For example, the Notho. Rachovii Beira98 egg that Loh gave me took 4 weeks to hatch under normal singapore climate. While the same species took up to 6month to hatch in Taiwan.

Personally, once they free swimming i would add a small snail and baby cherry shrimp (if you happen to have some). After some bad experience, i would also advice you to keep your fry in separate containers. About 2 per 50cents coin-size container. Small enough so that they can easily find food. Add 20% more aged stablalize water everyday and change for a bigger container after one week. After one month, you should be using at least 6inches diameter container. When it is at the size of 2 inch, you should put them into a real fish tank and let them start doing their "business". It is a MUST to cover your tank. If you notice killie have thick tail. They are born jumper with extremely high accuracy.

I have never use the methylene blue trick. Anyone care to explain? Sound like a good solution to fix egg infection.

So, Loh is in KL now?

Last word: I am a newbie too. It took me a while to learn all these. Hope these give you a good start.

----------


## shortman

[quote="flowerhorn"]that the eggs are hatched in some peat moss right? why don't i need to do it?/quote]

I leave the egg in water without doing anything and it hatch 100% so far. And I getting very lazy I just take the mob out from the tank and dump them into another container and pick fry each day.

If you are worry get Azzo peat. Throw about 50 cent coin size into a little container and mix with water, this will lower the PH in the water.
Water measure from the bottom of the container around 1 cm hight.

Drop the egg into the container leave it for around 2-3 days and you should see fry in 2mm size.  :Cool:  

Pick the fry with spoon and move them into another container with aged water add some java moss and feed them with liquid fry. BTW the liquid fry is not for the fry.

Hope it help you.

----------


## keehoe

Kho, consider he have only 10 eggs and newbie just started to learn. Doing it more carefully would gave him good knowledge of how to ensure survival of future species. I was lucky that Loh gave me eggs of one week spawn to start with.

----------


## flowerhorn

Thanks for the tip keehoe. My bad, due to my excitement and haste i forgot to read the guideline.  :Opps:  

Regarding the species, i hope Mr. Loh can shed some light...
I currently dilute the eggs in a small tea glass. The eggs looks like little smileys.

... what are the small snail and baby cherry shrimp purpose?

Yes, Loh is in KL. He had a seminar on planted tank aquarium.

----------


## shortman

> Regarding the species, i hope Mr. Loh can shed some light...


You mean Mr Loh did not mention to you the species or you forget.  :Smile: 
You are very lucky cause Mr Loh no more giving fry/egg to guy.

Check the link http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtop...?p=15093#15093

If not wrong the egg is from selena and should be Aus Gold/Orange.
Correct me if I m wrong.

You should get fry within 1-2 days cause one of the egg, the fry inside is almost ready to get out of the egg. You can see the shape of the fry inside the egg.  :Cool:

----------


## keehoe

Snail and shrimp eats leftover food/ waste produce by the fry. In a way control the water so that it wouldn't go bad too soon. But not before the fry able to swim effortlessly and the shrimp must not be bigger than the fry or too small for the fry to eat and choke.

----------


## flowerhorn

> You mean Mr Loh did not mention to you the species or you forget. 
> You are very lucky cause Mr Loh no more giving fry/egg to guy.


...erm i guess i couldn't retain the name

----------


## flowerhorn

> Snail and shrimp eats leftover food/ waste produce by the fry. In a way control the water so that it wouldn't go bad too soon. But not before the fry able to swim effortlessly and the shrimp must not be bigger than the fry or too small for the fry to eat and choke.


Noted. Thanks

----------


## flowerhorn

> Pick the fry with spoon and move them into another container with aged water add some java moss and feed them with liquid fry. BTW the liquid fry is not for the fry.
> Hope it help you.


What is liquid fry? u mean feed the liquid fry to the moss?

----------


## whuntley

Basically, yes, feed it to the moss. Use sparingly for it can foul the water, but it is food for infusoria growing in and around the moss. That gives new babies a quick supply of microscopic live food.

Wright

----------


## whuntley

Oops forgot the other question.

Liquifry #1 for egglayers is a commercial solution of egg and ??? that makes fine infusoria bloom as fodder for smaller babies. It comes from England and is distributed by Interpet.

Wright

----------


## selena

Hi Stephen,

Yep, these are Aphyosemion australe eggs and they are mine babies. Never able to remember their birthdate (good but short memory  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  ) that was the reason I use Methythene Blue. Nice colour, looks like swimming pool colour. Don't do anything just dilute the solution with overnight water daily and they will hatch when they are ready. When they are in the egg state and I too free nothing to do, I use a tiny eyedropper from Interpet, siphon the eggs up and down the tube, removing whatever afterbirth stuff that is sticking to them.Do prepare a container w/ aged water, lots of tiny swimming dontknowwhatisit and Java Moss. Don't worry about crabs,shrimps,snails or temperature, Aphyosemion australe babies don't need these toys maybe other killies do. And don't forget to get ready microworms for the free swimming fry. When the fry are out. replaced the water gradually with aged water from the grow-out container and then dump them into the grow-out when all are hatch ( 3rd day after hatching with shells and infertile ones) Moniter the growth with lighted magnifer and feed sparingly with microworms. The round bubble in the middle of the body (view from the top) should look white instead of clear if the babies consummed the microworms.

And guys and gals do correct me if I am wrong, I am also a newbie and a slave to about 120 fry/50 eggs.

Selena Tio

----------


## Shae

Hmm.....ah i must be lost, why feed java moss liquifry? If there is enough light etc it produces infusoria by itself, all you do if you feed it is polute the water quicker. I have never worried about diluting the meth blue that the eggs are in, just made water changes, it had nothing to do with the meths just the fact that as fish need healthy water so do eggs. 

I used to use microworms, but found them a pain as they sink. So ive long since switched to Baby Brine shrimp, not only can you produce more froma hatching, if find it more convenient, I can feed them out to my big fish aswell, they dont pollute the water because they can swim round and all get eatin and noticed by the fish. They act like a protien pill for fish and fry especially grow very fast on them.

I currently am feeding my palamquisti and korthause fry on them and they have doubled in size from 3 days feeding.

The only think with BBS is you have to feed them after 24hours because they lose most of there nutricianal value very quieckly.

Shae

----------


## Michsoon

Hi all,

Liquidfry No. 1 (No.2 is for live bearers) is used to creat infusoria, tiny little things that tiny frys can eat as BBS or microworms may be too big for them. That's why it's good to keep some java moss with newly hatched frys as java moss comes naturally with some infusoria. Just a drop or two will do. Keep the Liquidfry in the fridge as it does get bad.

Tip for those who are keep Clown Killies, keep spawning pairs in heavily planted tank and only do partial water change, you'll find frys every week that will feed off the infusoria till they are big enough to be scooped out.

Regarding BBS, is there any truth about feeding too much BBS will cause swim bladder problems in the fish. In the betta community, we only feed BBS only for the first 2 weeks, after that it's daphnia to avoid this disease.

By the way, finally getting some eggs from my AUS and GARs using the spawing mop method. Yaaaaaa. Trying out peat hatching method as I had quite a few eggs going bad by just putting it in water.

Keep in touch Stephen, as there are only a few killi hobbist in KL but good news that it's a growing community, got two betta buddies also into killis now.

Regards,
Michael
Klang, Selangor, Malaysia

----------


## timebomb

Hi, fellas,

Just got home from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia a few hours ago. I'm trying to catch up on what's been happening on the forum while I was away so this will be a short reply.

Stephen, the eggs are from Selena. They're the eggs of the Killifish known as a _Aphyosemion australe_, also commonly known as a Lyretail. You can see some pictures of the fish here..

We usually recommend that baby brine shrimps be fed as food to the fry when the eggs hatch but I understand from the talk that we had that there's a problem of finding brine shrimp eggs in KL. I would suggest you start an infusoria culture. To understand a bit more about infusoria, take a look here.

Snails are good for infusoria because their droppings are food for the micro-organisms. As for Liquidfry, it comes in a tube and should be available in the fish shops in KL. Liquidfry by itself isn't a food but it promotes infusoria which is food for baby fish. Liquidfry comes in liquid form so it can't possibly be food for fish.

Get your infusoria culture going now as the eggs will hatch soon. Use any container, throw in some boiled lettuce. Chuck in some snails and leave the container somewhere where it gets a lot of sunshine. If you have liquidfry, squeeze in a couple of drops. You won't be able to see them with your naked eye but after a while, there should be many micro-organisms in the water. When the fish hatch, transfer them into raising trays and pour some of the infusoria water into the trays.

The fry can survive on infusoria for the first few days but after that, you must provide a better source of food. If you can't find Daphnia, feed them with chopped tubifex worms. Chop them with a razor until the worms are very small and feed them to the fry. 

Whatever you do, remember not to overfeed. Fry actually need very little food to get by. If you overfeed, chances are what's uneaten will rot and polllute the water, thereby causing the fry to die.

There are about 10 eggs in the container I gave you. If everything goes smoothly, all should hatch. If you want to play safe, transfer the fry into 2 separate raising trays. This is so if the fry in one tray gets wiped out, you will still have another.

Good luck.

Loh K L

----------


## Shae

Personally i over feed in bare bottom tanks, this way i get maximum growth in minimum time but with a high amount of wastage and because the tanks are barebottom i can clean them easily. This is not reccomended for someone new to killies, i think i have just a smigen more expirence. The perfect kind of snail i use for in the fry tanks for a bit of cleaning up along with producing small amounts of infuzoria is the apple snail, i prefer the yellow ones becuase of there size, but they eat plants like mad! so if your going to have them in with plants i suggest you go with the brown apple snail. not so much a vegaterian.

Shae

----------


## Michsoon

No problems getting BBS in KL, Loh.

Most bettas hobbist will have some. I have bought Azoo BBS in a fish shop in PJ. Most of us just share a tin.

Stephen, try the bigger fish shops and if you can't find any just PM me.

Regards,
Michael
Klang, Malaysia

----------


## keehoe

Personally i like over feed, can tell by my size. I use big plastic container (about one little water capacity) feed as much as the fry can eat. Sometime if too much leftover, i will use dropper to clean up the bottom of the plastic tray. My 10days old Notho Orthonotus is 1.4cm in length now
with no casualty. Must make Tyron tell us what he feed his breeding pair.  :Evil:

----------


## flowerhorn

Wow! There are so many post in such a short time. You guys are all so helpful. :P 

I should thank you too, Selena for the eggs. I tried siphoning the eggs. 1 actually exploded.  :Sad:  It was the one which is more buoyant than the others though. I amb now left with 9 eggs. Btw. what are microworms?

Michael, i actually bought the wrong liquifry at first. I managed to get it changed to liquifry no1. 

Thanks for the links and the info Loh. 1 question regarding the infusoria. If using the lettuce method, do i need java moss? I don't have this plant but i'm able to get X'mas moss. I have attached a picture of a small container (with some floating plants) where i intend to culture infusoria by adding in liquifry before i read your post. Should i just go with the lettuce method?

I will try ro find some brown apple snail tomorrow. Thanks Shae.

Michael, i went to Irene aquarium and asked for bbs. I was given a bottle of Azoo artemia cyst. According to the lfs guy, this is bbs. Can this do? 


I thank you all so much for helping a newbie like me.

----------


## TyroneGenade

Are those decapsulated brine shrimp eggs or the actual cysts with a brown colour?

Do any of you guys have access to the AZOO 9 IN 1 ARTIFICIAL ROTIFERA product? I've heard much praise sung about this product and would love to try it. I'm told even _Aphyobranchius_ fry will eat it!

If you have microworms, these are fine for AUS fry.

Regards

----------


## Shae

atrificial rofiter?? We have rotifer cultures in NZ unfortunatly there $200-$300 for a small culture. And are mainly used in marine for saltwater fry. I have never heard of decapsulated brine shrimp? is it alive or freeze dried?

Shae

----------


## zmzfam

> I have never heard of decapsulated brine shrimp? is it alive or freeze dried?


Shae,

It is actually decapsulated brine shrimp eggs where the outer chorion has been removed by using bleach. Decapsulated brine shrimp eggs can be fed direct to the fishes and when you hatch them, they will hatch faster.

Here's some links :
http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtop...capsulated+bbs
http://killies.com/Decapsulating.htm

----------


## Shae

Thanks. We do not have anything like that here in NZ, well nothing Ive come across anyways??

Shae

----------


## whuntley

You won't have it unless you do it yourself, probably.

There are two kinds of decapped cysts. The ones you do yourself can make 100% of the poor-quality eggs usable as food. Some hatch, and many don't. the fish eat them all and the fatty-acid content is very high. I haven't seen these on the market in recent years

The other kind have been dehydrated and will never hatch. They are better, nutritionally, than live newly-hatched bbs, but many babies won't take them. I have found that most babies exposed to live bbs will also grab at the decapped dehydrated cysts after they have learned the color and taste. You can buy them in bulk from places like Brine Shrimp Direct at way less than the cost of premium cysts.

Wright

----------


## shortman

Wright, is correct brineshrimp direct does sell them here is link

http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/dec...ne-shrimp.html

----------


## Shae

I think ill stay with the normal hatching of BBS.

Cheers Shae

----------


## Michsoon

For those who don't know how to hatch BBS, Please see link below:

http://www.killi.net/foodarts/brine.html

you may just cut the top off a 1.5 litter bottle and put in the air hose from the top but the best way is as per the link as there is even air bubble flow. Fill up to about 2/3 water, use about 3-4 tea spoons full of salt (non-iodized), put in the eggs (don't have to put in one inch as per the above link unless lots of fishes to feed, for 10 frys a pinch will do) and within 24 house voila! you get sea monkeys (BBS).

To harvest, I let the bottle settle down so that the shells will raise up to the top and siphon then from the bottom to a cloth net (old hankerchief sewed on old net) with a container at the bottom to catch the filtered salt water to reuse (better results). Rinse the bbs and feed, you may also freeze the balance of the BBS if you don't have enough fish to feed but your frys will have to get used to eating them. If you don't get good results just put in a bit more salt and increase the air flow or your BBS is of poor quality.

Tip: keep BBS in fridge to extend storage life especially in this part of the world.

Regards,
Michael
Klang, Selangor

----------


## selena

I should thank you too, Selena for the eggs. I tried siphoning the eggs. 1 actually exploded.  :Sad:  It was the one which is more buoyant than the others though. I amb now left with 9 eggs. Btw. what are microworms?

Don't worry about that egg, it's probably infertile. If you happen to drop by Singapore, let me know, I can give you more blue eggs (and a microworm starter culture). 

I hardly use BBs because of my work. Microworms are so much easier. You can be havest them anytime of the day and they last for more than a day in the tank. 

Correct me if I am wrong in the method of collecting of m/worms.
I used a round container of 2-3" diameter. Moist oats with m/worms form a circle around the edge and the center is left empty with a thin layer of water. Collection of worms is siphon from the centre and put in a little tube of water. Leave the solution to settle for a minute or 2, you will notice that the worms by nature will settle at the bottom leaving only the milky solution at the top. Replaced the top solution with clean water once or twice with the aid of the dropper and you will get thousand of m/worms to feed your babies. Do correct me if mine methods are wrong, I do it because I am just too lazy/tired to cultivate BBS. I do, 100% agree BBS are the best food for frys.

Stephen, was trying to show you a picture of mine mini tank 4"x6" housing about 40 week-old fry. Just don't know how to attach the picture to my scripts. Maybe I try again another day.

Selena Tio

----------


## timebomb

> Thanks for the links and the info Loh. 1 question regarding the infusoria. If using the lettuce method, do i need java moss? I don't have this plant but i'm able to get X'mas moss. I have attached a picture of a small container (with some floating plants) where i intend to culture infusoria by adding in liquifry before i read your post. Should i just go with the lettuce method?


Stephen,

You're doing alright. Just pour the eggs into your container. They should be hatching soon. Forget about the lettuce thing. You already have Water Lettuce in your container which should somewhat serve the same purpose. Put one drop of your liquidfry into the water and leave the container somewhere where it gets a bit of sunshine. Do not put it under direct sunlight or it may get too warm for the eggs. If you have Moss, put some in the container. If not, it's fine too. Just take note that Killifish fry prefer dirty water. In other words, if the water is too clean, it would mean there's no infusoria.

I would advise against using the brown apple snail. They're huge snails and I don't know if they will eat the eggs. Use small snails like the pond snail or the Ramshorn snail. You will usually find them among aquatic plants.

As for your Azoo brine shrimp eggs, try hatching some now. If you like to know how I do it, click here. If you don't have enough time to rig up a hatchery, use any bottle. Do not worry about the amount of salt to use. The instructions should be on your Azoo box but a little more or less salt will not make much of a difference. The BBS eggs should hatch even if the quantity of salt isn't quite right. Over time, you will figure out the right amount to use.

There's a possibility though the Azoo BBS eggs will not hatch. This is because fish shop owners do not keep the eggs in a refrigerated environment. BBS eggs not in use should always be kept in the fridge, in the vegetable compartment. Eggs kept in room temperature will spoil after some time. If you're lucky, you would have purchase eggs that haven't been kept on a shelf for a long time. If you're not, the eggs are already useless.

One more thing, reduce the amount of water inside your container. Keep the water level low so that the fry do not have to swim all over the shop to look for food. If you don't know what are Microworms, it would be too late for the fry even if I can get some to you now. If the BBS eggs fail to hatch and there's no other source of food, try this:

Get some fish food. It doesn't matter if it comes in pellet or flake form. Crush and grind them until they become powder. Drop a bit of it into the container when the fry appear. Remember not to overfeed. Fry need very little food to get by. If you're successful hatching the brine shrimp eggs, a drop or 2 of baby brine shrimps will be enough food for 10 fry.

You're doing great, Stephen. Keep posting pictures and we will be able to help you better.

Loh K L

----------


## keehoe

Stephen, i recommend you look at the post on shalow tray hatching method and BrineShrimp decap procedure. For 10 fry, you might want to consider hatch more and stock up in the fridge. You can hatch more and keep for 3 days. But three thing you must remember, saltwater not over 1cm when kept in fridge. not closing the cap of the bottle and label the bottle as 'Not for human consumption'. As it looks rather delicious for untrain eyes.

----------


## flowerhorn

Hello,

Yahoo!!... One of the eggs hatched today  :Very Happy:  . 
I scooped it out with a spoon and transfered it to another small cup for the time being. The little fry sure do swim fast for its size. I added some of the infusoria cultured water to the cup. Got some pics





I will start culturing the bbs.

----------


## flowerhorn

Some updates.... 8/9 of the eggs has hatched so far. I can see the tail sticking out from the last one. It should hatch real soon. 

I started the bbs culture yesterday. It hasnt hatch yet. I dont know whether the power cut for 2-3 hours had damaged the eggs? 

Keehoe, how exactly cani store the bbs in the fridge? Is it still alive or its just to preserve it from getting bad in the fridge.

----------


## timebomb

The electricity blackout in KL will only delay the hatching of the brine shrimp eggs, Stephen. I don't think there will be any harm as it was only for a few hours. Are you sure the eggs aren't hatched yet? Not a single one? You should see some tiny creatures in your culture now. They swim in jerking movements. Individually, they look white in colour but collectively, they are red. If you still do not see anything, chances are your brine shrimp eggs are spoiled ones. Did you add salt, by the way? Brine shrimps are so called because they are marine creatures. They can live in freshwater for a while but not for long.

Kee Hoe suggested that you keep some baby brine shrimps in the fridge because you have only a few fry. One tiny scoop of brine shrimp eggs will produce thousands of baby brine shrimps. To save you the trouble of hatching the eggs everyday, keep the excess brine shrimps in your fridge. I think they go into dormancy when refrigerated but will come alive again when you feed them to the fry.

Your fry can go without food for the first 24 hours or so but after that, they will die very quickly if there's no other food source. If you do not have baby brine shrimps, feed something. Anything. Crush some fish food, use boiled egg yolk, throw in some decaying plants - whatever. Do something or your fry will all be dead.

Loh K L

----------


## flowerhorn

The hatch rate is very small only. It could be that i didn't put in enough salt i guess. I have prepared another batch with more salt. 

It's such a relief when i see those little fry go for the bbs. Thanks again Loh.

----------


## keehoe

Flowerhorn, When storing brine shrimp in fridge, you have to keep them in vege/ fruit compartment. with 1cm dept or less saltwater too deep they will die. Putting some oxygen crystal helps somewhat. 

Keeping them in fridge slow down their development process. You can judge by the colour. I won't recommend feeding baby brine shrimp for the first few days. Green water with a lot of mosses is the best method i have tried so far. Safest at least.

If you have something fast moving even when it is still undersize fry, sure that is killie.

----------


## flowerhorn

OK i got it Kee Hoe, 

I fed the fries bbs earlier before reading your post. Why is it not recommended to feed bbs in the first few days?

I guess i would have only 8 fries if none of them dies. I accidentaally emptied one of the cup which contained the last egg.  :Crying:  ... what an idiot!!

This is a pic. of the fry after having his dinner.

----------


## keehoe

That is a perfect rounded body. In future if you do manual feeding (i.e feeding right infront of their face BBS one by one. Feed until this shape and thats the maximum you can go. BBS are quite big for some fry and might dirty the water if you intend to hatch more egg from the same container. I realise fry removed from their original hatching place seems have high fatality rate.

----------


## flowerhorn

I don't do manual feeding. It would be quite impossible to do that for me. The fries, 8 of them are scattered around the container. 

Actually I hatch the eggs in a small tea cup, then transfer them to the main container. I only feed bbs. 2 days later to the first fry. Then as the eggs hatch, I just transfer them to the main container. I'm feeding them bbs only once a day. Would this be enough?

----------


## PohSan

Hi Hew,

This is what I have been doing. For the first two to three days after hatching, I will feed them microworm enriched with spirulina powder. Then I feeds them small amount of BBS. You can know that they are eating from the pink belly of the fry. Adjust the amount of BBS based on the leftover BBS after feeding for 1/2 hour. For every one or two days, siphon out the decayed food with a small dropper and perform 40% water change. 

When the fry is about 1 to 1.5cm, I starts to feed them tubifex worm. For a start, I feed them baby tubifex worm which I pick up with a glass dropper. Gradually increase the amount of worm and cut down BBS.

I am quite a busy man so I usually feed them once in the evening. And I don't spoon feed them to their mouth. I just got a can of freeze dried cyclop so I am trying to feed them an additional meal in the morning.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

----------


## flowerhorn

Thanks, Got it Poh San.

----------


## flowerhorn

Hi, i'm trying to feed my fries with tubifex worms and some crushed discus food. They refuse to eat. What i see is, they will nibble on it, then spit it out... well maybe just consume a little. So i'm still feeding them with BBS. I do this just once a day.

I have some updated pictureswhich i just snap today...





Sorry for the not so clear image.

----------


## timebomb

For fish that aren't eating well, yours are huge  :Shocked: 

You're doing fine. Your fish are now big enough to eat chopped tubifex worms. 

Loh K L

----------


## flowerhorn

Hi Loh, probably it's close up that's why they look big... lol... Will freze dried tubifex worms do? because i'm trying to feed them those. And they dislike it.

----------


## timebomb

Fry prefer food that moves. I would still suggest you feed them with chopped tubifex. Just use a razor and chop the worms into small pieces. 

Loh K L

----------


## drew85

Mr Loh, 

My eggs finally hatched. Of all that I have collected, about 10 made it. I did as you told me at your place. I have them in a small tray with java moss, and a few drops of liquid fry. 

When do I start feeding baby brine shrimp? I bought the frozen brine shrimp, mysis shrimp and daphnia by Hikari. Can those be used? Can I use daphnia instead to feed the fries? Also, how can I start a daphnia culture? 

The adult Australes, and Gadneri love the Daphnia and the brine shrimp. Right now I am in search of live bloodworms. Can't seem to find a LFS in the west region that sells it. 

Regards 
Drew.

----------


## keehoe

Try enriched 2-3 days old BBS. You have to start teaching them to eat the real food. Hikari frozen blood worm should have a good chance also. My notho of this size already fighting for frozen bloodworm. But again, Notho is big eater.

----------


## timebomb

> My eggs finally hatched.


Congratulations, Drew. The fry can go without food for the first 2 days. After that, start feeding them baby brine shrimps or *live* Daphnia. As I've pointed out in my last post, fry prefer food that moves. If the food doesn't move, chances are the fry won't bite. 

But don't worry too much about not being able to feed them properly. If you have Java Moss and liquidfry in the tray, chances are there's infusoria. Maybe not enough to raise every fry but many will survive.

Loh K L

----------


## flowerhorn

> Try enriched 2-3 days old BBS. You have to start teaching them to eat the real food. Hikari frozen blood worm should have a good chance also. My notho of this size already fighting for frozen bloodworm. But again, Notho is big eater.


erm... how to enrich BBS?

----------


## timebomb

> erm... how to enrich BBS?


Kee Hoe has left for his hometown in Malaysia to celebrate the Lunar New Year so I'll answer the question. 

To enrich BBS, feed them with spirulina. Spirulina comes in powder form. It's green in colour and is available in some fish shops. Just dilute a teaspoon of it in water and put a few drops of the solution into your brine shrimp hatchery. The brine shrimps feed on the spirulina and become enriched. That's for brine shrimps. To enrich the fish shops, buy more products from them  :Laughing:  

Loh K L

----------


## flowerhorn

> Originally Posted by flowerhorn
> 
> erm... how to enrich BBS?
> 
> 
> Kee Hoe has left for his hometown in Malaysia to celebrate the Lunar New Year so I'll answer the question. 
> 
> To enrich BBS, feed them with spirulina. Spirulina comes in powder form. It's green in colour and is available in some fish shops. Just dilute a teaspoon of it in water and put a few drops of the solution into your brine shrimp hatchery. The brine shrimps feed on the spirulina and become enriched. That's for brine shrimps. To enrich the fish shops, buy more products from them  
> 
> Loh K L


Lol... always a sense of humor in your posts. Its good to know additional information. May use the "enriching" method in the future... unless anyone can spare me some spirulina powder... just kidding. 

Anyway to all who celebrate Chinese New Year, I wish you all a Happy & Prosperous New Year!... Drive safely.

----------


## flowerhorn

Hi all, it's been some time since i last posted. I have some more questions.
Are the Australes that i'm having sensitive to kh? The problem is the kh in my planted tank will rise to 180-200 ppm over 1-2 weeks. My tap water is around 1-2 degree kh. Will this pose a problem?

----------


## whuntley

> Are the Australes that i'm having sensitive to kh? The problem is the kh in my planted tank will rise to 180-200 ppm over 1-2 weeks. My tap water is around 1-2 degree kh. Will this pose a problem?


AUS are coastal species and tolerate quite a lot of dissolved stuff in their water that true rainforest fish may not.

How are you measuring KH in ppm? 1-2 degrees is unsafe for most fish, and particularly for those that need more dissolved minerals in their water. The pH is likely to be super unstable at such low llevels, with risk of ammonia toxicity and "brown blood disease" way up.

I like a GH of about 2- 5 degrees and a KH of 5 or 6 for most so-called soft water fishes. That's usually low enough that the Ca doesn't harden the chorion and make for hatching problems, but provides enough essential electrolytes for good cell metabolism. YMMV

Wright

----------


## whuntley

Added thought!

Never confuse tds and GH or KH. They are all three different and getting them mixed up can lead to serious problems.

Wright

----------


## flowerhorn

> How are you measuring KH in ppm? 1-2 degrees is unsafe for most fish, and particularly for those that need more dissolved minerals in their water. 
> Wright


I'm using Nutrafin by Hagen. Its the no. # drops x 20 to get the readiing (ppm)as per the instruction.

----------


## whuntley

1-2 drops is pretty poor buffering. You might want to add some bicarbonate to double it. Baking soda works better than the stuff from the LFS (also baking soda) but only costs about 1% as much, so you may not be inclined to trust it.  :Wink:  

Go easy. Sodium can be toxic in really soft water. [Sounds like yours is not that dead soft, tho.]

Wright

----------


## keehoe

Hew, To enrich baby brine shrimp:

1) Hatch normal BBS (baby brine shrimp). Takes about 24hours.
2) After that, filter the BBS and separate them from shell.
3) Mix new salt solution for enrichment.
4) Put the filter BBS into the salt solution.
5) Turn on the air pump to keep the BBS moving in salt solution.
6) Wait for 1 day.
7) Put a 10-20cc of salt solution into small container and mix with spirulina powder. Shake well to disolve the Spirulina.
7) drop some disolve spirulina solution into the solution.
 :Cool:  wait for at least 5 hours. 
9) filter the BBS out and ready for feeding.

You can get Spirulina powder/ capsule/ tablet from health food store. (That is where i get mine.) It is Blue-green algae and in chinese, it is call "Loh Xuan Zhao (algae)" or "Spiral algae". Even chinese herbal shops has it.

----------


## Shae

why mix different solutions and wait so long? why not hatch the shrimp after 24 hours, then put the filtered shrimp straight into this salty spirulina solution?

Shae

----------


## keehoe

Well, that way should work also. Just that i normally harvest BBS from bottom if it the solution have shell and by doing that it separate the shell and the BBS. Once mix with spirulina, you don't want to harvest from bottom as it contains a lot of uneatten spirulina scum and you might not want to do that from the top as there are lots of shell. 

BBS does not start feeding from external environment on first born. It would only do that after they consumed the "supply-egg sack" that takes about 48 hours if i remember correctly. I think in our environment is shorter. (As majority of my BBS die one day after hatched if without feeding.)

Just a personal preference.

----------


## flowerhorn

> 1-2 drops is pretty poor buffering. You might want to add some bicarbonate to double it. Baking soda works better than the stuff from the LFS (also baking soda) but only costs about 1% as much, so you may not be inclined to trust it.  
> 
> Go easy. Sodium can be toxic in really soft water. [Sounds like yours is not that dead soft, tho.]
> 
> Wright


Sorry for not being clear. Actually water from my tap is soft (with 1-2 drops i get the kh reading). But the kh builds up to around 180 ppm (around 9 drops). I guess it would go up even higher if i don't do weekly water changes. 

I just put in my fries in the main tank a week ago after 30% water change. The KH reading was 100 ppm/5.6 degrees KH. They seem fine up till today. I guess they should be fine with my water parameters. Its just that it may not be too good for some of my plants.

----------


## flowerhorn

Hi, some updated pictures to share...
Can anyone tell me why is the tail of this fellow clamped up?


This is a pic of another fish

----------


## stormhawk

Bacterial infection and poor water condition can somehow contribute to this clamped tail effect.

It is best that you do a slight water change and possibly add a little bit of salt. Little here means VERY little.

----------


## TyroneGenade

My bet is Costias and I suggest General Tonic if you can find it. I think pretty much anything with Acriflavine in will do the trick.

Don't waste time. This can rapidly turn into a plague. The cause generally is poor house keeping combined with over crowding. Step up the water changes.

Best of luck.

----------


## timebomb

Hew, 

Clamped fins are a sign something's not right with the water. But the other male in your pictures seems to be perfectly healthy. Are the 2 males in the same tank?

Since you have no problems taking pictures and uploading them to this forum, why not take some pictures of your setup and show them to us? I believe we can help you better if you do that. 

Loh K L

----------


## flowerhorn

I sure hope it dont turn into a plague, TyroneGenade. 

Yes, Loh, they are all in the same tank. 

Anyway here is a pic of my tank. Probably i could get some suggestions on what how to improve my scaping at the same time? This is just my first attempt.

----------


## TyroneGenade

That is a lovely tank!

What are your water parameters? Have been fiddeling with the pH at all?

Those are nice cardinals. I assume your temp is about 27°C? You may find it difficult keeping fat on the AUS at this temperature. What are you feeding them? 

Have you lost any fish lately?

Your tank looks very healthy and is not over crowded by the looks of it. I can't imagine sick fish in it.

Adding any medication with methylene blue (such as General Tonic) will certainly upset the plants. Most plants can risist acriflavine though so you may want to look out for a med which is 100% acriflavine and follow the dosing instructions... just becareful as your cardinals may be overly sensitive to it.

Your clean tank suggest bacteria are not the problem at all. The cause must be a protozoan parasite (such as Costias) or diet/temp/water parameter related. 

Remove the sick fish NOW from the tank. If you can get it round to someone with a good microscope experiment by taking some skin scrapings/rubbings and looking at them under the microscope.

My adivise at this point: get rid of the sick fish ASAP.

Regards

----------


## flowerhorn

Thanks for your kind compliment.
With Co2 the pH is 6.8-7. But i checked in the morning before lights on. Its 7.6...scary!! But other fish seems ok. 

Been feeding them with tetra bits once a day. KH is high though (180 ppm). Luckily no losses on any fish so far. But i think all of my shrimps perished. Btw, what is the ideal temp for australes?

Will isolate the fish today. Thanks

----------


## TyroneGenade

I'm stumped. I cannot see a direct and obvious link between your tank and the sick AUS.

AUS do best at about 24-25°C IMHO and pH less than 7. Some would argue the addition of some salt (NaCl) helps but I'm not 100% behind this... 

The pH climbs at night because the plants are taking CO2 out of the water. In any case, pH fluctuations are natural and occur in the wild too. But a lower pH (while bad news for plants) will help reduce bacterial infections. Your high KH has to do with your tap water (most likely) and it is best not to fiddle with it... If you tap water is hard and/or alkaline then adding CO2 to the tank will boost it as much carbonic acid formed will be converted to carbonate. Plants can extract CO2 from HCO3- but not carbonate. At night they are using the HCO3- and this causing the increase in pH.

Your diet is OK. Tetra bits have a higher than usual lipid and protein content compared to flake and this should help the AUS cope with higher temps. You may want to try some supplemental feeding with cyclops.

There may not be a general problem and this AUS just got sick. Isolate him and hope for the best. Should the infection spread I see no other option than to resort to the General Tonic treatment after removing all methylene blue sensitive plants.

Good luck

----------


## whuntley

> I'm stumped. I cannot see a direct and obvious link between your tank and the sick AUS.


I agree. Remote diagnosis is often really hard to do. We cannot see how the fish is moving and behaving otherwise. Since we tend to get it wrong about 90% of the time in our own tanks, the chances of doing any better on yours are really tiny.




> AUS do best at about 24-25°C IMHO and pH less than 7. Some would argue the addition of some salt (NaCl) helps but I'm not 100% behind this...


Like most killies, AUS do not care the least bit what the pH is. If it is below 7, you can miss water changes and the ammonium remains harmless. Really high pH is often associated with Ca and Mg, which may render eggs a bit harder to hatch, as they seem to harden chorion on some species, but not AUS as I vaguely recall.

AUS do OK at higher temps, IME, as long as they get plenty of oxygen. They are a lowland, equatorial species, so encounter pretty high temperatures along the Gabon coastline.




> The pH climbs at night because the plants are taking CO2 out of the water.


What? How do they do that since photosynthesis has been stopped? The substrate is contributing to GH and KH, here, and maybe it is continuing to dissolve and raises KH, while the CO2 delivery system is extremely inefficient. Lapis Lustre gravel is notorious for this effect, and is widely used in SG. [It contains lots of tiny shell chips.] The pH readings seem inverted to what one might expect (should be low AM and higher PM).




> In any case, pH fluctuations are natural and occur in the wild too. But a lower pH (while bad news for plants) will help reduce bacterial infections.


Yes, natural fluctuations in pH tend to happen, but neither plants nor fish are sensitive to that alone between about pH=3 and 10. Low pH isn't bad news for plants, but too-low electrolytes can easily let them get out of balance, and that can be bad news for both plants and fish. Mythology like this runs throughout the aquatic world, propagated by chemically inept authers. I have grown lush plants at a pH of below 4! Try adding a wee bit of salt when the GH is below 2 if you want to see plants turn brown, though.





> Your high KH has to do with your tap water (most likely) and it is best not to fiddle with it... If you tap water is hard and/or alkaline then adding CO2 to the tank will boost it as much carbonic acid formed will be converted to carbonate. Plants can extract CO2 from HCO3- but not carbonate. At night they are using the HCO3- and this causing the increase in pH.


As I recall an earlier post, the tap water is dead soft, and the substrate or decorations are raising GH and KH between water changes. If this is true, then changes should be limited to about 20% at any one time, and done more frequently if more water must be changed to keep ammonium, etc., down. This will minimize osmotic shock, and keep electrolytes from getting way low at any time. I prefer to add some Seachem "Equilibrium" to the change water to keep the electrolytes up at a reasonable level, if the tap water is below a GH of 2. Dead soft water is *not* healthy water for fish or plants




> Your diet is OK. Tetra bits have a higher than usual lipid and protein content compared to flake and this should help the AUS cope with higher temps. You may want to try some supplemental feeding with cyclops.


Any good live foods are useful. Daphnia, bbs, and Tubifex are all desirable. When feeding richer foods, like worms, I increase the frequency of water changes to compensate. [Well... I should but don't always.]




> There may not be a general problem and this AUS just got sick. Isolate him and hope for the best. Should the infection spread I see no other option than to resort to the General Tonic treatment after removing all methylene blue sensitive plants.
> 
> Good luck


What plants would those be? Maybe I use it so sparingly that I haven't detected any ill effects on those mosses or ferns most likely to get exposed.

For treating the sick fish, I would jump to the conclusion that he had damaged gills from Velvet O/E and would keep him in a mild solution of acriflavin and salt, but only if in the harder tank water. [Straight tap water would almost certainly kill him.]

My wishes, too, for good luck,

Wright

----------


## TyroneGenade

> What? How do they do that since photosynthesis has been stopped?


Go see the photosynthesis post. From the pic most of the plants are Hygrophylia and swords/grasses. All of these are CAM plants that will fix CO2 regardless of light or not. If there is CO2 or bicarb they will fix it into malate. As the water well buffered the pH increases as the acid from the formation of malate is used to react with bicarb to form CO2 and H2O but this does virtually nothing for the carbonate in circulation that will keep sucking up protons (acid). Without the CO2 system running the pH goes up while with it running the CO2 system can beat the pH slightly down but not much. 

A low pH is bad for plants as they rely on the export of proton into the surrounding medium to not only dissolve chemicals (such as calcium) but also to create an electrochemical gradient so these positively charged molecules can enter the plant. With a low pH there is already a lot of free protons and the plant has to expend more energy creating this electrochemical gradient. If you add sodium salt then they will also rip across into the plant killing it. A high light intensity may be able to help the plants cope with the low pH but they would prefer the higher pHs as then means they don't have to work as hard. 




> Like most killies, AUS do not care the least bit what the pH is.


A recent AUS discussion on the BKA list turned up that all the people having success with AUS have them at pHs far less than 7. One had a group at 5 and another group at 6 and only the group at 5 was producing eggs in any quantity that were fertile. Then again, this may have more to do with water hardness than pH. But it is rare that the 2 do not go together... 




> As I recall an earlier post, the tap water is dead soft...


Guilty as charged... Forgetfulness and inattention in the 1st degree. Guess I better pack for Camp Cupcake.  :Crying:  




> What plants would those be?


Ceratophyllum for one. Methylene blue is an electron transport system inhibitor that will shut down photosynthesis. For many plants this is a mild problem forcing them to tap into their fuel reserves while for others with no fuel reserves this is the end of the road. I imagine Tonia and other stringy plants would be in the same boat. It seems some shrimps are also sensitive to it. 

Regards

----------


## TyroneGenade

> If you tap water is hard and/or alkaline then adding CO2 to the tank will boost it as much carbonic acid formed will be converted to carbonate. Plants can extract CO2 from HCO3- but not carbonate. At night they are using the HCO3- and this causing the increase in pH.


After much careful thought I cannot support this interpretation by myself for the KH and pH rise at night. I'm still thinking but the above doese not gel to my mind anymore.

While the removal of CO2 and HCO3- should cause the pH to increase the effect of the CO2 fixing should balance this out, and combined with the acid metabolism of the plants there should be an overall drop in pH or KH due to acid production. 

As Wright says the water is soft and the gravel is what is hardening the water. It could be that the gravel's effect on the water chemistry could be destablizing the tank at both a pH and osmotic level---an effect that should abate with time with more water changes.

How often are you changing water? How large a change?

Can you take pH and KH readings in the morning, afternoon and evening over several days? What about GH? I'm very curious as to the chemistry in your tank.

Regards

----------


## flowerhorn

I set the timer to switch on in the afternoon @ 2 pm. It will turn off midnight. When i measure before lights on, was @ 10 am. PH was high.

----------

