# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk > Cryptocoryne Club >  Crypt lovers, share your secrets for promoting submersed growth

## bossteck

Hi folks, 

It seemed like there's a large group of crypt lovers in AQ, myself included. 
Can you share your secrets on keeping crypts in *submersed* form? How to promote their growth? 

My tips (_which is based on my own experience and may not be correct_): 
1. Leave them alone after planting and provide stable water conditions.
2. Use lots of root tabs as crypts are heavy root feeders
3. Leave the part of the plant where the leaves meets the rhizome exposed. (What's that part of the plant called? Crown? Node?) 

Please add on to the list, and if you have different opinion, I will be very happy to hear about them!  :Smile:  

Hope to hear from other fellow crypt lovers and experts! 

Cheers!

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## bossteck

No one? 

Come on, on the one hand I see crypts put up for sale end up being reserve almost instantenously, yet on the other hand, there's no response here? 

Am I asking a very silly question or is everyone in AQ keeping their crypts emersed?

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## vinz

No, their keeping their trade secrets.  :Razz: 

Seriously though, I think the common crypts are so easy that most people don't actually have a 'strategy' regarding them. Generally, people focus on getting their other plants healthy and the crypts just happily enjoy the ride.

In general though, I agree with your point 1. and 2. If there are leaves, I don't find it necessary to leave the growing tip exposed.

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## [C]irRuS

BossTeck I think majority of the people who are keeping "exotic" crypt are keeping them emersed. People want to see them flower and the condition is more stable. Hehe.

I think the key to growing nice crypt in submerged form is patient of the grower, and lots of patient.

You gota bear with the crypt rotting and regrow. Many will just pull it out after rotting, before waiting for the chance for any new shoots to form.

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## grey_fox

I concur with [C]irRuS. Patience is the key to growing nice submerged crypts.  :Smile:

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## Justikanz

Erm... I just plant the crypt, wait for it to melt and then see the new submersed leave emerge... No secrets or whatever... Though I think good substrate fertilization and CO2 will promote the ease and speed of the process...

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## bossteck

Hi, 

Thanks for the response guys. Totally understand the point about emersed growth for purpose of viewing flowers of crypts, however I am in love with the colors brought on by some of the leaves of crypts in submersed form. Some how, the mix of green with tinge of red and brown just makes my day (am I weird?)  :Razz: 

To tell you the truth, I started my crypt-only tank in August 05. My tank specs are 5x2x2.5(ht), with a 3x1.5x1.5 sump tank, my CO2 injection is about 4bps (which I know is too low, but there're folks who keep crypts without co2at all). 

Some time in end 05, I switch my DIY lights (6 x 18W power compact lights) to a 4 x 55W PL (which again, isn't really that penetrative for a 2.5ft high tank, but then again, there're folks who keep crypts in much lower lighting level). 

I had about 4.5 packets of lapis mixed with 2 packets of JBL aquabasis. I supplement it every 6 months with root tabs. Ocean free and some German-brand (I think) root-ball which I got from Systems and Control in Boon Keng. 

Over the 1.5 years, my crypts grew... a little. Today, I would describe them as "leggy" rather than "bushy". It's been 1.5 years now, I have patience but I am beginning to wonder if I am doing something wrong. Sorry, I did not keep track of the length of growth of the leaves or the number of new leaves. But what I can say is, each time I look at my tank, it seemed pretty much the same to say 3 months ago. 

I know they are notorious for growing slowly. Given my tank conditions, is the rate of growth normal? I have C. Wendtii, Petchii, Balansae, X. Willisi, Parva, Affinis, Ciliata (not sure of the id though). Pretty much the so-called easy crypts. 

On a brighter note, few months back, I uprooted some of my balansae (not suppose to move them around, yes I know, but this is the first time in 1.5 years), and I noticed that their root system was really, really vast. I had to cut off about 12-15 cm of the root to replant them elsewhere to make room for another crypt which I got from a fellow hobbyist here in AQ. 

I will take some pics, and post them here, anyway I need lots of help with the ID as well.  :Smile:

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## |squee|

Of course there is ADA Aquasoil Amazonia!  :Grin: 

For me they grow best under medium lighting with some flow (leaves swaying slightly every now and then).

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## PeterGwee

Light drives growth....low light = slow growth. Exactly what your crypts are doing in your low light tank.

Regards,
Peter Gwee

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## [C]irRuS

I think it is normal for crypt to grow slowly under the condition that you mention, Bossteck.

But it also depend on the species of crypt.

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## bossteck

Hi folks, 

Thanks for your repllies. Perhaps I should consider getting MH lights instead. (Wife probably will complain again  :Smile:  ) 

May I also find out from you guys about your fertilization routine? 

Cheers!

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## [C]irRuS

As for fertilisation regime. It really varies. Some people choose the high end path with ada solution, weekly dose of fertiliser while the others continue with their humble way. Simply lapis and base fert. Both waywork just the result differs.

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## bossteck

Hi Cirus, 

Thanks for your reply. So what fertilization routine are you using? Care to share some information about your tank parameters / conditions and comment on the growth rate of your crypts? Thanks!  :Smile:  

Cheers!

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## [C]irRuS

I am under the low tech category. I just use lapis sand with base fert. Hardly any liquid fert. The growth rate is slow.

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## victri

It's harder for me to get them to grow fast emersed. No idea why.  :Sad:  

Submersed, it's pretty much just stuffing them into the gravel and they'll grow. I get good dense growth with ADA Amazonia and Flourite substrates. New plantlets emerge after about 4-6 weeks. For example, a C. parva foreground takes 2 months to fill in (initially planted about 1" apart). I don't notice any significant melting even when I move them around.

Tanks are around 2.5wpg, 27-28deg C, CO2, twice weekly fert dosing.

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## lorba

Its not too difficult to get your crypts grow like crazy, with fat nice leaves.

Using ADA Soil with PowerSand Special and other substrate product is one easy way. Other things to take note would be lights and subsequent fertilization. The plants around the crypt should be keep low and not blocking if you want the crypt to be fat and nice. I just cleared 3layers tall of hairgrass in my big tank and found that all crypts are long and leggy at the bottom.

I would use MH, high co2 and fertilization for my crypts.

Never try growing crypts in new tank, you get mostly melted plants. If you have an established tank, you can actually use the water to set up the new crypt tank initially.

----

For keeping emerse crypts, its not too difficult. The key is, your plant should not be half died, or they will take quite a long time to recover or grow even with best condition provided.

I am using ADA Malayan or Africana with a layer of FERKA Aquabase (Swampy crypts that prefers low ph) for all my exotic crypts. Keep the tank 100% covered, cool water, bright lights and your plants should propagate with big healthy leaves soon (1-2 months? yes).

You can check out my 2ft emerse crypt tank in my office, with vietnamese, thwaitesii, elliptica, keei, auricuata etc etc. 

Kept some decus silvae in a 24cm cube and they flowered frequently with 18hrs of 36W PL light / day. Teared it down already.

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## celticfish

bossteck,

you can add to the base fert by point fertilization with stuff like root moster or fert balls (JBL? this one is more clay-like looking).

I find that mine grows faster with without water-column fertilization.
I qualify this from my recent uprooting and rescape on my 2ft crypt tank. 

the new setup is the same except the root monster was not added this time (the yellow shells from the root moster are really annoying when you uproot the plants). they are now growing but at a much slower pace than before.

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## bossteck

Hi folks, 

I am wondering how effective would water column fertilization be for crypts? 
I am pretty sure they can survive without it, so my question is, how much better would they do with it? What sort of water column fertilizers would you recommend? 

You guys have been really helpful, thanks for answering my queries. 

Cheers!

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## valice

I think it proabably depend on the nutrients available?
Not a botanist, just a spectulation. Could it be that the plants know somehow that if the roots are not getting enough nutrients, they will also take in nutrients through their leaves?

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## Quixotic

In this thread, it is mentioned that the easiest uptake of nutrients for plants is through leaves, rather than roots. However, seems like there is no mention if crypts has a preference on the uptake.

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...=leaves+uptake

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## PeterGwee

If the water column is rich in nutrients, why switch to root uptake since pathways are longer. Plants are "lazy" and would prefer the easiest way out if possible unless they had no choice. Some folks still think nutrients in water column causes algae till now..... :Sad:  

Regards,
Peter Gwee

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## itssg

Beside using the ADA soil. ADA Multi Long Bottom and Multi Iron Bottom are very good fertilizer to grow crypts. Use both of them and you will be abled to see the result within a week.

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## Ah_ZhaN

I am growing my submeresed crypts in _Aquasoil 'Amazonia'_ supplement with _Ferka 'Rosetta'_ on a monthly basis. Together with the high tech conditions provided (as stated by lorba and Peter), my crypts are growing quite well so far, especially C.petchii and parva. However, my barclaya 'red' had melted away completely without any recovery for the past few months.  :Opps: 

As for planting/introduction of new crypts(submerse or emerse), I follow the advice of Azmi by soaking the crypts for serveral days to a week. Then finally remove the melted leaves and plant the crypts into the soil/substrate.

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## StanChung

> Some folks still think nutrients in water column causes algae till now.....


It's definitely not the cause but it certainly helps it IMHO. Esp. the hairy tufts that feels like cotton when you pull on it.
That one is the nastiest that loves EI methods[or whatever hi methods!]- hi light+hi nutrients + hi CO2. :Roll Eyes:  

As for crypts, i agree with Roland about using hi lighting to boost the thickness and lushness in growth. The low light areas in my tank have very very slow growth.
The AS helps crypt growth a lot in my tanks too.

Aslo IME can confirm that Crypts hate new tanks. I've introduced many crypts for a new tank that have meltdown shortly after. Affinis emersed seems resistant to melting opposed to submersed in new tanks.

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## bossteck

Seemed like I need to upgrade my lights.  :Smile:  
Thanks folks for all your inputs.

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## ytlammm

Hi bossteck - Can i check with you where to find varieties of crypts at west area ? C328 ?

And how to determine whether tank water is considered stable as mentioned crypts melt and resistant to tank change ?

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## bossteck

Hi, 

I got my crypts from Teo's farm it is at Lim Chu Kang area. I think you can do a search for list of LFS and you can get the exact address + telephone number. I also bought some from Weirong, a fellow hobbyist here in AQ. Others I got from the LFS near my place which had since closed down.  :Sad:  

I do not have any scientific method to determine if the tank water / tank conditions are stable or not. What I do is just plant and leave it along, on my part, I try not to mess around with the tank and water conditions too much. That's pretty much it.

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## valice

> I am growing my submeresed crypts in _Aquasoil 'Amazonia'_ supplement with _Ferka 'Rosetta'_ on a monthly basis. Together with the high tech conditions provided (as stated by lorba and Peter), my crypts are growing quite well so far, especially C.petchii and parva.


I do noticed that my crypts will initially melt abit after the insertion of my Ferka tabs. But the new shoots that comes out after the melt is fantastic. Big long leaves.

Do you experience that?

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## |squee|

Same experience here, they melt, then grow nice leaves after that. Mine are in a non-CO2 so they melted quickly fast, then grew leaves slowly.

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## bossteck

This is interesting! 

I have never tried Ferka tabs myself. Tried to find it couple of months back, went to C328, out of stock, went to Petmart (I just rechecked Green Chapter's site, Petmart is not listed as one of the local agents, but I could have sworn that I saw it listed as one then...) anyway, went to Petmart, also don't have. In the end, gave up.

But based on the description you guys posted, I think Ferka tabs, unlike other root tabs, would release it's contents much faster. Perhaps it is this change in availability of fert that causes the old leaves to melt? Just a guess.

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## PeterGwee

> It's definitely not the cause but it certainly helps it IMHO. Esp. the hairy tufts that feels like cotton when you pull on it.
> That one is the nastiest that loves EI methods[or whatever hi methods!]- hi light+hi nutrients + hi CO2.


Cladophora hangs on pretty well and grows very fast in good conditions (enough light, good CO2 and nutrients) once induced. They seem to be induced in tanks dosed on the lean side or allow nutrient levels to get low. I had it once and the only way to get around it is to remove all of it and correct the tank conditions. It does not come back at all once the hard cleaning work and correcting of tank conditions is done.

Regards,
Peter Gwee

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## StanChung

> Cladophora hangs on pretty well and grows very fast in good conditions (enough light, good CO2 and nutrients) once induced. They seem to be induced in tanks dosed on the lean side or allow nutrient levels to get low. I had it once and the only way to get around it is to remove all of it and correct the tank conditions. It does not come back at all once the hard cleaning work and correcting of tank conditions is done.
> 
> Regards,
> Peter Gwee


It's resistant to removal. Hangs on to roots of ferns.  :Evil:  
Perhaps this is better saved discussed in the Fert and Algae section.

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## PeterGwee

You need to remove the infected plant then if that is the problem and only return those uninfected ones. I have not had cladophora ever since with the good clean hard work done. You need to do a good cleaning and that sometimes mean removing the infected part or the whole plant.

Regards,
Peter Gwee

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## StanChung

Let's discuss this here

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## valice

> This is interesting! 
> 
> I have never tried Ferka tabs myself. Tried to find it couple of months back, went to C328, out of stock, went to Petmart (I just rechecked Green Chapter's site, Petmart is not listed as one of the local agents, but I could have sworn that I saw it listed as one then...) anyway, went to Petmart, also don't have. In the end, gave up.
> 
> But based on the description you guys posted, I think Ferka tabs, unlike other root tabs, would release it's contents much faster. Perhaps it is this change in availability of fert that causes the old leaves to melt? Just a guess.


You can try Biotope. Or Sera Centre.
The latter definitely carries them...

I believe like you mentioned, it could be the fast release of nutrient. So a sudden change of parameters triggering the melt experience by me and Terence.

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## Justikanz

My emersed crypts are suddenly melting...  :Sad:  Guess growing crypts emersed also not easy...

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## Ah_ZhaN

> I believe like you mentioned, it could be the fast release of nutrient. So a sudden change of parameters triggering the melt experience by me and Terence.


I do experienced the same situation too. Even when I am switching to EI fert regime, my crypts melted too.

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## lorba

I have been using FERKA Rosetta all the while for the cryptocorynes and I do not think inserting them would have excessive nutrients enough to cause melting. 

I think, the key factor to keep big, strong, healthy, beautiful cryptocoynes underwater is to provide good water current around the plants and constant supply of co2 without big fluctuation. Bearing in mind that most crypts are flowing in fast flowing streams. 

Change in lighting regime triggers melting. They can get use to say, few hrs of MH and few hrs of FL / day, but changing the bulb may set the melting off.

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## valice

Hmmm... You doing it regularly?
I insert once in a while. So there might be a condition change in the process...

Oh yah, any trained botanist here? I still wondering, what part of the plants actually absorbs nutrients?
Stomata? or roots?

I read in TFH, iirc, that aquatic plants don't really have stomata like terrestrial plants, so what;s the avenue to absorb nutrents in the water? And if the arguement that intake from water column is easier, then, what's the purpose of the roots? Do they still absorb nutrients or shut off?

And for stem plants, I noticed that they like to form dangling roots from the internodes and tries to grow downwards into the substrate, so what's the purpose of these roots? If they can absorb nutrients from the water column, why the need to grow downwards? Any how grow can already mah...

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## |squee|

I'm no botanist, but I've read somewhere that aquatic plants can take in nutrients from both leaves and roots. Roots are still needed for mechanical attachment to the substrate.

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## bossteck

> Seemed like I need to upgrade my lights.  
> Thanks folks for all your inputs.


Hi Folks, 

An update. I could not splash out on a new set of HOT5, so I ended up getting a second hand 4x55W PL from a kind hobbyist here. It's been about a week since I added the lights. 

My tank now has 2 x 4 x 55W PL running for 8 hours a day. The changes I noticed are that my plants seemed to be a bit redder can see red 'veins' on one of my crypts (don't know what name though). I also see new leaves sprouting. So happy!  :Grin:

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## peterkoh

Rich substrate. I use JBL ball shaped root fertiliser and it works well for me. In fact, I hope they don't grew too fast and tall at the foreground as it covers the rest.

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## bettarism

I am currently growing my Crypt in a 1ft tank. Observation by me is that whenever i change about 50% of the water or directly pour water over the area where the crypt are, they tend to melt off easily. 

Recently, i tried another method, i pour fresh water into the area of the canister water outlet slowly, mixing fresh water with the current tank water. And now they stop melting. Just my experience. :Shocked:

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## valice

I seemed to have this problem too, but the melting only occur at the tip of the leaves, and then they stop melting. Does yours melt that way too? I have not tried pouring at other location to test if the crypts still melt.

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## StanChung

Chlorine in tapwater can do that IMHO.

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## bettarism

> I seemed to have this problem too, but the melting only occur at the tip of the leaves, and then they stop melting. Does yours melt that way too? I have not tried pouring at other location to test if the crypts still melt.


Mine melt totally. Maybe you can try out mixing the fresh water with the tank water first before pouring? Less quantity change each time but more frequently. Maybe Crypt melt when there is large changes in water condition. Anyone can verify this?

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## |squee|

> Maybe Crypt melt when there is large changes in water condition.


Yes, crypts are known to melt when there are large changes in the water.

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## Aquaculture

> Yes, crypts are known to melt when there are large changes in the water.


Does it melt if I'm administrating the EI method? As in 50% or more water change each week?

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## Sleepy_lancs

Hi Aquaculture,

Yes initially. However, with frequent water change (same amount each time), the crypt will adapt to it and stop melting.

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## Kai Witte

In my experience you don't have to be too weary to have "very stable conditions" when you have healthy, vigorously growing plants. I almost always do very large water changes (90+%) but only rarely (in tanks with few fishes) - like once or twice a year. I can't remember when I had my last crypt completely melting-down as a response to any kind of water change - must have been decades ago. And that includes many blackwater species and other rare crypts...

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## Ah_ZhaN

kai:
Do you mean once a crypt get stablised, it won't be affect by changes in water parameters leading to melting ?

I had my submersed _Cryptocoryne wendtii "green gecko"_  for more than 2 months. Recently, there are a small "hole" on a couple of matured leaves, and the "hole" will widen with each day passed and the whole leaf will melt eventually. I can't think of a reason behind it and it has pretty sadden me alot...making me damm worried because I really love this crypt.  :Crying:  It is so stable for the past two months but now then it starts to melt ??  :Exasperated:  :Exasperated:  Oh god, please save my beloved crypt!!  :Crying:

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## Kai Witte

Hello Zhan,

I was more thinking along he lines "A healthy crypt can take quite a beating" (without responding with a full melt-down) - you don't see crypts melting completely after every rainstorm in nature...  :Wink: 

I assume you already changed the water to a large extent? 

Maybe add a little potassium to see wether this helps avoiding the tiny holes to start with.

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## Ah_ZhaN

Kai,
So you mean occasional melting do occurs, but not the whole entire plant specimen(i.e to say that few leaves may melt, but things will get better?) 

I perform 50% water change weekly in conjunction to EI. And I think that it might not be a case of nutrient deficiency too because all other plants and crypts are doing great. Only the _"green gecko"_ are affected as far as concerned. I am not sure what causes the "holes" and agitates the melting of my _'green gecko'_.  :Sad:  

Nevertheless, I observed that their roots are grewing out of the substrates, which is not seen from other cryptocoryne spp.

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## Quixotic

> Nevertheless, I observed that their roots are grewing out of the substrates, which is not seen from other cryptocoryne spp.


I thought this is common for some crypts (can't remember where I read this), or at least, this is the case for those suspected to be _C. undulata_ in my tank. Sometimes, they even attach themselves to the driftwood or rock.

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## eagleray

Just planted some crypts (beckitti and petchii) into my tank ... as expected some of the leaves start to melt ...

would anyone advise if I should cut off the melting leaves ... or following the first principle which is to leave it alone, as cutting it will disturb the crypt acclimiating and cause it to melt further ?

I guess there should be no harm/side effects in leaving these rotting leaves in an aquarium right

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## StanChung

Should leave it to float as per Cryptyman Roland's advice. Try as i might to do differently, it melts. The reason i don't like to float it is it looks gnarly. My suggestion is to tie root base to a weight and let it float so that leaves don't curl up.
The duration should be till you see new roots.

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## bryan

It totally hates untreated tap water. Over the weekend, I had to swap a 2FT Juwel with a 5 plan. I could not keep the old water (wife already angry), and had to use water straight from the tap. I let it run a day before replanting. This is the third day and I see a tankful of mush. My 6 months effort of converting crypts down the drain. :Crying:

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## leeruisheng

Will the crypts grow if there is a difference in room temperaure? I'm intending to setup a crypt tank in my room and will only switch on the aircon in the night. 
So I guess the temperature of the tank will be like 22 degrees during night time and 27 degrees during day time.

And how long after melting will new leaves start to grow?

Thanks.

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## Kai Witte

Sure, 22°C is no problem, especially for a few hours. If the tank has a reasonable size and is covered, chances are that it stays well above the minimal night temperature of the air...

If only some older leaves melted, growing can continue immediately. For a complete melt-down, it depends on the severeness of the damage:

If the growing point got killed, it may take several weeks (or longer) for new growth to appear (depending on the health and size of the remaining rhizome). Letting it float can speed up the process (and development of new growing points can be noticed earlier); it's main advantage is that continued rotting of the rhizome is less likely though! 

If the growing point survives the melting, new leaves will appear much faster (several days- few weeks).

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## leeruisheng

Hello Kai,

What's the rationale behind covering the tank? 

I have done as most would advise to have the crypts floating in the tank before planting. But after a few days, the leaves started to melt too. Is this common?

Can recommend some good crypts websites too? I have a few crypts but still can't identify them. 

Thanks.

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## Quixotic

http://www.nationaalherbarium.nl/Cry...yne/index.html

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## vratenza

> http://www.nationaalherbarium.nl/Cry...yne/index.html


do you have any links to pages with pictures and names of submersed crypts?
the ones in the link above are mainly emmersed forms...do no correlate well with submersed specimens...
Thanks! :Grin:

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