# Other Aquarium Forums > Fish Care, Nutrition and Water Management >  Weird Disease Just Popped up!

## loupgarou

ok: after sundays 2/Mar purchase of fresh fish.

marble hatchets from petmart x 6
2 Cory schwartzi's from that fish and pet place
3 Cory Leucocemalas (prob) from gan's
2 Cory Adolfoi from gans
2 Cory Hasbrosos from petmart
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description of events.
28th Feb thereabouts, merged my 2ft and 4ft. I already noticed one bumblebee goby with a disease, had white spikes protruding out of the body at various places, (looking like bba infecting a plant, except its white and infecting a fish).

I hospitalised it but it died next day.
29th Feb, found another sick bumblebee, took it out and euthanised it.
----------------
3rd Mar: Morning: woke up and check, only 4 hatchets. though two jumped out. no corpse on floor

4th Mar: Found 1 dead cory, it was a big one, suspect its a schwartzi, but too many cories to tell.
Only down to 3 hatchets. no hatchet corpses.
Found 1 dead cardinal tetra. no visible signs on corpse
Found 1 dead female guppy, but this was probably attacked by the anostomous tr... cos tail was tattered way before that.
Evening, found a sick Madagascar rainbow. symptoms.seems like ulcer or swelling on the midsection of the body, fished it out and placed in hospital tank. later saw had white blobbish feaces, used Miracle Baby's MQ4 Super Dewormer in that hospital tank.

5th Mar: Evening: the Madagascar rainbow is dead.
Found 2 dead cardinals.
Found 1 dying cardinal , behaviour: it was swimming/skipping on the water.. ie: almost like trying to jump out of the water, body was side ways.

the dead cardinals had no visible symptoms: ie: they look healthy, just dead.

---------------
sounds like internal parasites? flukes?

Ever since I found the first bumblebee, I've dosed the tank with Seachem Paragard (anti ectoparasites, external fungal/bacterial/viral lesions)

at least 3 water changes have occurred.

water additives were pmdd, sodium bicarbonate, salt, peat tablets (jbl humulon)

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## loupgarou

50% water change done about 3 hours ago 9pm. added carbon and uv filtration, (in case its something in the water first), will be treating with myxaxin later.)

meanwhile, just found (as in within the last 3 hours). 
2 dead corydoras , 1 dead cardinal, 2 dead madagascar rainbows.

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## loupgarou

the tetras display no symptoms. the cories are practically skeletonised. and the madagascar rainbow has a swelling at the tail region (before the fin).

columnaris?

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## PeterGwee

Mmmmmmm...should go easy on the fishes lah...do water changes to improve conditions but do not dump medications anyhow mah. Wait and see first mah...ID the problem properly first before attempting to treat rather than throwing all sorts of medication (more harm done than good).

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## Goondoo

> ----------------
> On 3/6/2003 12:24:41 AM 
> 
> Mmmmmmm...should go easy on the fishes lah...do water changes to improve conditions but do not dump medications anyhow mah. Wait and see first mah...ID the problem properly first before attempting to treat rather than throwing all sorts of medication (more harm done than good). 
> ----------------


I second his opinion, imagine you are having a flu and your doctor keep prescibing you different medicine just because you didn't recover enough for the pass three hours?

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## loupgarou

what are you guys talking about? this is a disease that's fatal. if you're telling me to wait and see, its done. waited 2 hours without doing anything (just carbon filtration + uv)


within the last 2 hours.
1 dead oto
1 dead corydoras macropterus
1 dead white cloud mountain minnow,. and that's before treatment of anything.

no symptoms. oto was skeletonized, cory and white cloud were float, body has no swellings or anything.

just fished out all the dead fish and started dosing 15 ml of myxazin.

ammonia = 0
no2 = 0
ph last tested was 6.9

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## loupgarou

within the last 40 minutes (2.40am now).

1 cardinal seen breathing on the surface
1 nanostomous trasvetitus seen laboured breathing and weak.

I fished both out.
doubt they will survive.

gill flukes? multi disease combo?

also saw one cardinal with a vertical band of off color skin
(ie: not quite distinct, just a little less brilliant compared to other cardinals

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## loupgarou

8:45am.

found dying cardinal, fished it out.
found dead Apisto Trifiascata male. nothing unusual on corpse

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## theodore

What do u mean when u said &amp;quot;merged my 2ft and 4ft&amp;quot;? What are your Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate readings?

White spikes on goby sounds like some kind of fungal infection, possibly stress-related / secondary infection. Last time i saw something like that was when my tank was not fully cycled (added a few fishes on the 3rd week). Luckily for me, only one died.

A few things I would try (if i'm in ur shoes) :

1. Salt bath (15-30min) and into hospital tank. One concern i can think of would be ur cories. Some say that salt treatment would kill catfishes but my otos did well when i tried it. Cories may be a different story i suppose.

2. Anti-biotics bath (15-30min) with commercial anti-bact medication and into hospital tank. The prob with this is that I cant tell if the bacterial infection is due to gram +ve or gram -ve bacteria. I would avoid dosing the medication into my main tank cos it may kill off my beneficial bacteria colonies.

3. Heavily salt your tank (without the fishes) - Some of your more sensitive plants may die / stop growing due to high salinity. Leave it for a day or two before removing the salt through water changes (unless you want your fishes to return to a marine tank when they get better).

I hope you are attempting to remove all traces of your 1st med(Seachem paragard) when you used the activated carbon. This is gd practise when wish to try a 2nd med(myxaxin).

Lastly, if main tank's beneficial bacteria gets killed off in the treatment process (i have a feeling myxaxin will knock it out), the tank will cycle and experience ammonia and nitrite spikes again. This may contribute to more fish deaths.

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## Allen_1971

Chris,

sorry to hear about your tank... just a few things...

you might wanna pop by sera's webby to see if the disease charts there can help.

Secondly, dosing myzaxin together with paraguard could be toxic... I know myzaxin and protozin cannot be dosed together. Not sure what is paraguard comprised off.

Thirdly you should turn off your UV during any medicine dosing... leaving your UV on can break down the medicines itself and cause them to become toxic. I believe David had some experience with this where the UV actually broke down the meds and caused his fish to gasp for air.

Fourthly, while salt isn't a cure all, it does deal with lots of parasites, and helps with reducing osmotic pressure for the fishes. So I would advise salt at 1tbsp/5G levels... 

If I were U, I would do a large water change, turn off my UV. add salt, add an air pump, and then wait and see...

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## Allen_1971

> ----------------
> On 3/6/2003 10:56:33 AM 
> 
> Lastly, if main tank's beneficial bacteria gets killed off in the treatment process (i have a feeling myxaxin will knock it out), the tank will cycle and experience ammonia and nitrite spikes again. This may contribute to more fish deaths.
> ----------------


As a side note, myzaxin does not harm filter bacteria.

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## bclee

Chris, there seemed to be quite frequent problems in your tank. Quite upsetting I guess.[ :Embarassed: ] 

The might be something about the water that is not right... or the food you feed. (Just my guess.)

Maintaining good water and giving good quality food will prevent diseases. Tom Barr will tell you that he has not have any disease for xx years. Barring the first 3~4 months of my tank (no experience with fishes then), I have not gotten any diseases... touch wood. 
*dipping my hand in the tank and holding onto the driftwood*
Nothing fanciful... just water change, good plant health, good food... leaving everything as natural as possible... no additives (geoliquid,etc.), no UV filter, no carbon,...


Good luck :Smile:  

BC

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## loupgarou

a) 28th feb or so when I dismantled my two feet tank and dumped the inhabitants of some 20+ cories, 4 cigar fish, angel fish etc into my 4ft and sold off all my equipment.

from 28th feb to about 3rd March, I dosed the tank with paragard.
During this time, about 20% water change daily. UV IS OFF.

paragard kills ectoparasites etc etc mentioned above, I supposed 3 days are enough.

during which time I did add new fish.

--
On the night of 5th march, I did a 50% water change, filtered the water for about 2 hours of carbon filtration, during which I still have more deaths.

after carbon filtration, I dosed the tank with myxaxin, this morning, about 4 hours later. I found the apisto trifiscata dead and a cardinal breathing on the surface.

I fished out that cardinal put it in a seperate container with fresh tapwater/anti chlorine.
45 minutes later, that cardinal was dead.

---------

the disease strikes so fast , there is NO time for any treatment to work by the time you notice the symptoms.

KH = 1 or 0
PH = 6.8,6.9
Nh3/nh4 = 0 ZERO
NO2 = 0 ZERO

if its something in the water, I doubt the first madagascar rainbow that I saw would have a swelling on its body. (like something from ALIEN trying to get out..)

--
at no time was there any mixing of chemicals (or at least not significantly) ie: 50% water change followed by carbon filtration.

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## loupgarou

I suspect since there are no visible symptoms besides dying (for most of the fish that do die) and the breathing at the surface problem of cardinals, and the way its spread. (ie: cardinals don't usually eat dead fish like the skeletonized cories and otos)..

could be gill flukes. except I don't see the fish scratching in any way.

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## CK Yeo

It is not disease. It is your water. The disease symptoms are showing up are secondary, after your fish are stressed by the water conditions. If that's the case, all the medicine you are adding is probably not help much.

Your substrate is probably leeching something into the water. Fish gasp at the surface for air when the O2 is less than 5ppm (could be other things though).

For the moment, I would suggest change tonnes of water and wait it out. Re-populate the tank SLOWLY.

ck

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## loupgarou

ParaGuard™ is a unique dialdehyde based treatment with synergistic malachite green and fish protective polymers. It is the only liquid medication on the market to control parasitic, bacterial, fungal, and viral infections. It will not damage the biological filter. It is exceptionally effective in dips. It is a highly effective and economical solution for problems of ectoparasites and infectious lesions. It will not affect the pH. A 100 mL bottle treats 200 gallons. Marine and freshwater use. 


Sizes: 100 mL, 250 mL, 2 L, 4 L, 20 L

DIRECTIONS: In the aquarium, use 1 mL (top mark on enclosed dispenser) to every 2 gallons. Repeat daily as required as long as fish show no stress. For 1 hour dips, use 3 mL per gallon. Dips may be extended if fish show no evidence of stress. Aquarium Use Only! Keep Away from Children! WARNING! Avoid any contact with eyes. In case of eye exposure, promptly wash with copious amounts of water and seek medical attention

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## loupgarou

my substrate is seachem fluorite/gravel mix. it cannot leach anything. it has no base fert.

the fish that are dying are a mix of those originally in the 4ft and those from the 2ft, so its not stress, cos if you want to consider stress, then it would be those from the 2ft since they came from a lower ph tank.

its more likely to be something introduced over the weekend cos of the various fish places I went (ie: chong sua, that fish and pet place,petmart etc etc. which isn't something I normally do), which remind me: next time: quarantine..grr



gill flukes very strong possibility.

I came home at 12:30am. that's about 15 hours.

3 dead cardinal tetras
1 dead kuhli loach
1 dead apistogramma trifiascata female (leaving me with one female left)
1 dead nanostomous transvetitus (this one, saw that the gills are inflamed/gill cover swollen) - leads me to believe its gill flukes.
1 dead white cloud mountain minnow
1 dead oto.

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## Earth

Chris,

sorry to hear all these sad news that's been happening in your tank. I hope these dark hours will be over soon.

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## DEA

you might be wrong, you might be right, it's actually not important
doesn't hurt to give other people's suggestions a go, especially when your own treatment isn't working, yes?
iirc, you've been having problems with your fish for a long time
i'd go with ck's suggestion

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## loupgarou

My previous fish problems stopped for sometime already (ie: since december when I redid the tank.).

this morning. 9:03am.
1 dead anostomous tri..
1 dead kuhli loach
1 dead corydoras leucomalas
1 dead white cloud mountain minnow
1 dead microrasbora

I can't use a hospital tank. cos the whole tank should be infected, no symptoms for infected fish, could be eg: I notice the fish acting weird (either all by itself for cardinals, or acting weakly ) , when I fish it out to the hospital tank, within 45 minutes or so, its already dead. (at least for the last 3 cardinals I did that for.)

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## bclee

December to now is not a long time. To have outbreaks at so close intervals is pointing to something's wrong. If that is not solved, you might probably get another outbreak 3 months down the road.

My suspicion is the water too.

Good water ----&amp;gt; healthy fish ----&amp;gt; resistant to diseases

BC

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## loupgarou

what do you expect out of the water? pathogen introduction?

as far as water changes go, I'm pretty much change twice a week.

I tend to suspect pathogen introduction from eg: 2 of the pet shops I never go before except for this sat/sun.

as far as my december episode was considered , it was the denitrator + sulphate poisoning + death of 200 shrimp + resultant bacterial bloom/dropsy, ie: you note dropsy in the fish.
I revamped the whole tank. removed all substrate, changed to Fluorite + peroxided the whole tank for pathogens.

other than that, the only thing I can think of is NEwater. 

does the symptoms so far (ie:seemingly healthy one moment, a little laboured breathing, 45 minutes later, you're dead.)
match eg: chloramine poisoning? the only water additive for that I'm using is these sodium thiosulfate crystals (that I've always been using), and my tank registers as zero ammonia

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## loupgarou

another positive suspect.

Chilodonella 

Chilodonella is classed as the most dangerous of the Protozoan parasites and can cause mass fatalities especially in overstocked ponds and aquaria.

It is between 40-60 microns in diameter and can be easily identified on a microscope slide using 100 x magnification.

It reproduces itself by transverse fission, and the adult has a heart shape appearance, although this is changeable, and its body is evenly covered with cilia.

The parasite can actively swim short distances so healthy fish are easily infected. An infestation of Chilodonella can cause opaqueness of the skin, especially between the head and dorsal fin and in severe cases the skin can look swollen. Gills are also attacked and can be totally destroyed, quickly killing the host.


Once dead, the host is quickly deserted by the parasites who swim off in search of new prey.

Affected koi may show classic signs of flashing and rubbing, may hold their fins clamped against their body and appear listless. They will also hang at the pond surface and gasp for air in severe infestations.

Recommended treatments include Malachite Green and Formalin, Potassium Permanganate or Salt baths at 3% ( 4 and one half oz. per gallon )

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ie: eg: madgascar rainbow with body swelling.
and instant death of all the smaller fish with no visible symptoms (ie: gill destruction.)

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## loupgarou

13 hours later: 11:20 pm.

1 dead cory venuezelanus
2 dead kuhli loaches
1 sick white cloud mountain minnow (fished to hospital tank)
1 sick harlquin rasbora, exhibiting popeye in one eye, fished to hospital tank.
1 dead botia sidthimunki *sob*
---
2:30 am
both sick fish in hospital tank are dead
found a floating (but still alive) corydoras macropterus, put into hospital tank

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## loupgarou

11:30am, corydoras macropterus in hospital tank = dead.

checked for more dead fish, couldn't find any.

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## loupgarou

11pm Sat.

found one sick corydoras leucomelas
found 2 sick cardinals. 1 with pop eye.

---
2am.
all 3 still alive in hospital tank but not dead yet.
---

still some dubious looking cardinals (off color) and 1 with the dorsal fin bitten or something in the tank.

hopes that the disease has either ran its course or the paragard manages to kill/slow it down

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## kubrich

no offence joop,but from the likes of this,seems like ure fishies are all sick? dunno if they are in any kind of suffering and all,but would it be better to cull them restart ure tank instead of puttin them thru so much and all, and if the disease is in the main tank why dun take all live stock out and place them in hospital tanks and treat them while u redo the tank and rid it off the disease and then reintroduce those fishies that have gotten cured... juz my 0.2 cents worth.. :Smile:  it's sad to hear ure fishies all die like tt one by one,and i guess it must be pretty depressing for u too.  :Sad:  [ :Embarassed: ]  :Sad:

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## loupgarou

you can basically treat the whole tank as a hospital tank, 

like i said before , by the time I spot a sick fish, its too late for it.

I'll try to get a microscope tommorow from toy's r us or something. but what I suspect is gill destruction so even if you kill the parasite with medication, the fish still dies.

corydoras leucomelas in hospital tank dead at 2:40am.
cardinals still alive though.

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## benny

Hey Loupgarou,

If you get the microscope, keep this thread updated/posted. I'm very keen to know what you see beyond our naked eyes. Perhaps the &amp;quot;no visible symptom&amp;quot; will be a different story under 400X magnification.

Good luck!!

Cheers,

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## theodore

> ----------------
> On 3/9/2003 2:45:43 AM 
> 
> you can basically treat the whole tank as a hospital tank, 
> 
> like i said before , by the time I spot a sick fish, its too late for it.
> 
> I'll try to get a microscope tommorow from toy's r us or something. but what I suspect is gill destruction so even if you kill the parasite with medication, the fish still dies.
> 
> ...


It would be a lot harder to kill any pathogens that are hidden away (e.g. deep inside the gravel bed) if you are to treat the whole tank as a hospital tank. Why take a chance that it may recur in the form of a mutated (and drug resistant) strain in the months ahead?

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## loupgarou

Sun 11am : 
found 1 dead otocinclus skeletonised.

the two cardinals in hospital are alive. even the one with popeye/cloudy eye which I might euthanize.

I worry about the cardinals. when lights are off, cardinals usually lose their colouration, with this coloration on, immediately after switching on the lights, I can notice some have redder gill plates compared to others.

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## sherchoo

Chris,
Any idea what is the NH4 and NO2 level of your tank?

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## loupgarou

yes:
nh4 = zero
no2 = zero

---

anyway, the disease seems to have abated, but the cardinals looks off color still, did a 10% water change, maybe overdose on salt now..grr

the cardinals in the hospital tank aren't dead, 1 jumped out.
I caught another sick one and added it to the hospital tank.

current symptoms, no longer the rapid death, but either they have gone insane or its a swim bladder problem. they no longer swim straight but swim relatively in same location in spirals (ie: Like a top/gyroscope) no sense of direction at all. at rest they look normal (ie: correct direction, but when swimming, they spiral)
--
I think one of the key things here is temperature, after the 99% water change, I raised the temp to 30, during which time I didn't get any deaths until I reduced it to 28 where upon the corydoras leucomelas got the disease as well.

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## loupgarou

came back home 10PM Mon.. (grr, went to biotope but it was closed)

the two cardinals in the hospital tank with the spinning problem are still alive.
one dead oto in the main tank.

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## loupgarou

Tuesday morning: no dead fish visible.
found 1 more tetra in main tank with spinning sickness. not certain if its a swim bladder or CJD in fish. grr

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## Allen_1971

whats your salt level in the tank now chris?

btw, could they have whirling disease?




> ----------
> Symptoms of whirling disease include erratic circular swimming and blackening of the tail and caudal peduncle (muscular area just behind the tail fin). Fish may develop bent or open mouths and misshapen bodies. Fish gradually die as the disease progresses. 
> ----------

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## loupgarou

other than the spinning thing they do, none of the other symptoms match, but who knows.

anyway, I'll read up more.

salt = no idea, don't really measure salinity, however, through out all this medication and temperature changes and water changes , disease outbreaks, all my malayans and yamatoes are fine. (and my baby dwarf royal pleco from akoh..)

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## loupgarou

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Colo_Wil...ase%5B1%5D.htm

quite unlikely,since its a coldwater disease.

but the 30 years in aquaria - horrific thought.
----

anyway,
will continue to monitor,
a) pathogen could be dead due to increased temperature + medication, but the fish could be permanently damaged (ie: brain or gill damaged) 
b) pathogen in some other stage of life? cysts/spores etc.

--

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## loupgarou

Wed 12/3/2003 00:05am
no visible deaths in the tank. (although I did a rough count of my cardinals, 30 left or so, meaning at least 30 died and were eaten by the shrimp so no corpses seen. also my dwarf chain loaches are fewer...grr)
--
I just bought the only set of 1200x microscope from toy's r us Thomson at $70. (I checked with kings aqua supplies, cost $250 for a standard 450x microscope..lol)

--
as for the spinning cardinals. only 1 still alive in hospital tank. 2 are dead.

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## loupgarou

Wed Night 12/Mar
2 dead fish:
bumblebee goby and some small tetra.
all the spinning cardinals are dead in hospital tank
changed water 4 buckets full (20%)
added seachem prime (dechlorinater)
after that
salt, sodium bicarbonate, a peat tablet, seachem fluorish + temp reduced back to normal + fan on. (cos my lace plants and aponogeton bovianus started to brown/die thanks to the increased temp).


Thu Morning 13/Mar
1 dead SAE
found one spinning cardinal but didn't catch it out.

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## BFG

Loupgarou, I suggest that u leave ur tank alone for the moment. Do not add anything else into ur tank including food for a day n monitor ur fish. After 24hr, feed n observe ur fish for any external sign or sympton. Look at the other inhabitants in your tank too eg shrimps/snails or watever u have in ur tank. Feed ur fish 2day n leave them alone until Saturday. U can measure the waters parameters 2day n compare them again on saturday. Just a thought.

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## loupgarou

ok: just for measurement.

nothing done to tank yet. 
Thu 13 Mar 11:45pm
found 1 dead cardinal half eaten by my botia sidthimunkis.
-----------
Temp:27
Ph:6.6
Kh:2 (1st drop blue, 2nd drop yellow)
PO4: 0.25mg/l
NO2: 0
NO3: 12.5mg/l
NH4: 0
Fe: 0 (all my iron is EDTA-Fe,(and most recently FeGluconate) unmeasurable? or lousy kit:Rainbow brand heh)

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## PeterGwee

Eh..Chris, may I know what test kit are you using to measure PO4 and nitrate?

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## loupgarou

NO3 = tetra
PO4 = sera

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## loupgarou

Sat 00:10 15/03/2003

no apparent fish deaths. hopefully everything has abated. but then again, unless a cory or some other big fish dies, I wouldn't know.

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## loupgarou

Sunday 13:00 16/3/2003

The cardinal with cloudy eye seems to have cleared up 
the one that is spinning seems to spin less, but its natural at rest position is tilted down (ie: like a headstander fish).

*reason: the hospital tank, I treated with Be-Furan...
considering the positive effects, wondering if I should dose the whole tank?

however, no dead fish found in main tank today.

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## BFG

Loupgarou, let nature take it's course. Maintain regular feeding n water change for your main tank. Do not add any meds at the moment. If the fishes gonna die, it will die. U just have 2 scoop it out the moment u see the carcass 2 prevent even more fishes 2 be infected. Try not 2 add any wild fishes too! Hope this helps.  :Smile:

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## loupgarou

Sat Night
erm. I moved the two cardinals from the hospital tank back to the main tank.

the one with pop/cloudy eye is fixed (it was one eye anyway, which according to disease manual is more due to injury).

the one that was spinning can swim straight now, but the rest position is altered..

--
on the other hand, I fished out the remaining bumblebee goby, it was showing signs of erupting those spike like things on the original bumblebee. possibly not a disease, maybe cancer ertc..who knows, the farm could have treated the fish with Malachite so that they have a 1 year replacement rate.??

anyway, I'm watching it.

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## loupgarou

Found dead oto today.. grr

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## loupgarou

Mar 21 today, no dead fish since 17th..

what I'm more afraid of is disease is dormant or all my existing surviving fish are carriers.. grr

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## Vican

Just a thought, different fishes from different tanks are immune to different diseases and could even be carriers of different diseases.

So when you mix 2 tanks or add new fish from a LFS without doing some treatment, both the new and old fish will cross infect each other.

Most of the time, we're lucky enough that the infection is not serious and the fish recovers without medication. But sometimes, some serious infection occurs and the fishes are not able to handle it and die.

Happened to be because I added 10 otos into my 200L betta barrack. Whatever the otos bought killed all my bettas in the barrack within 2-3 days when all the bettas were healthy before. And to add, I've got a UV filter inside the system

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## loupgarou

don't know. tank was clear until last friday or so.
where I bought 7 cory zygatus , 17 chela dadyburjori and various fishes.

yesterday, 3 of the cory zygatus are dead, and 2 otos.

suspect the same thing/existing fish are carriers
. in anycase, I've treated the whole tank with befuran.

--------

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