# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk >  HELP: Mini Pellia turning brown

## sword28

hi all,

hope to get some help here.
I am setting up a new tank and it has been 3 weeks now.
I have mini pellia tied to 4 big lava rocks and mini fissidens tied to many smaller lava rocks.

The mini pellia initially is growing well. It is pearling even before new shots appear.
However this past week, MP on 2 pieces of the lava rocks started to turn brown.
And it seems to get worse day by day, like spreading.
The other 2 MP rocks are still growing well.
I don't think so this is algae, but not sure why this 2 rocks MP started to turn brown.

My setup :
2x1x1.5 tank
Chiller set to 24.5 to 25.5 
CO2 at 2bps
ADA soil
No fauna except 1 horn snail

These are the changes as far as I can remember in the past week :
1. I lower the chiller temp by 0.5 deg. Used to be 25 to 26 deg.
2. I increase the CO2 from 1bps to 2bps.
3. I started to dose Borneo Wild Ferrum

Now, I have reverted CO2 back to 1 bps and stopped dosing Ferrum.

Please help. 
The pictures below show the good and the brown MP.

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## greenie

I've been unsuccessful with mini pellia too. Bought bright green and after a few months turn dark green/black. While other moss like x-mas moss grows like weeds, my many batches of mini pellia bought from various sources seems stunted. Place them in high light or low light areas of the tank seems not to change anything.

My fert regime is the usual dry dose NPK + trace. Every other plant type, red stalk plants, rosette plants and hairgrass thrives. I have this feeling my tank pH is a factor as I keep it low at pH 5.5 during the photoperiod. I also use ADA soil.

My tank temperature too is set to 25-26C. My tank is a high-light tank setup with areas of low light using DIY LEDs and CO2 injection via external reactor. I use 1 deg pH drop to determine ample CO2 instead of bps though this is not a guarantee way to be sure of sufficient CO2 but it works for all my other plants and fishes.

Wanted to reduce CO2 injection to increase pH but I do not want to slow down growth of the other plants. My situation is every other plants and mosses are ok except mini pellia. So I can safely say nutrient/light/temp is not the issue, at least, for me. It could also be water flow or agitation on the mini-pellia as my cluster is in the flow of my powerhead too. Maybe even could be down to some dumb luck. I have spent a considerable amount of $$$ to acquire them. Sigh.

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## atolylica

Your setup seems okay for plant growth. 

Your MP could still been acclimatizing to the new water parameters. 3 weeks is too short to make a conclusion. What you need is patience. When you see new growth in a few more weeks, you will be delighted.

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## sword28

greenie & atolylica, thanks for your replies.

I checked with an expert in growing moss and he is saying that it could be my KH.
currently my KH is zero, and he recommends KH of 3 or 4 for growing moss.
It could be the cause because i was changing water (about 30%) like every other day to lower the ammonia.
and with KH low, the PH swing could be high.
maybe MP is very sensitive to PH swing.

ya, i am now monitoring and hoping that things will turn better.
hope my patience pays off.

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## greenie

> greenie & atolylica, thanks for your replies.
> 
> I checked with an expert in growing moss and he is saying that it could be my KH.
> currently my KH is zero, and he recommends KH of 3 or 4 for growing moss.
> It could be the cause because i was changing water (about 30%) like every other day to lower the ammonia.
> and with KH low, the PH swing could be high.
> maybe MP is very sensitive to PH swing.
> 
> ya, i am now monitoring and hoping that things will turn better.
> hope my patience pays off.


Let's do this together swor :drool 2: 8. While I can't help with my tank pH swing, during C02 injection pH dip from 6.5 to 5.5 and back up when injection off, I do can keep KH more constantly around 3-4 using seachem equilibrium.

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## sword28

greenie, seacham equilibrium can maintain KH? I read the description is only increase GH? I now use baking soda to up KH but it always goes bk to Zero. Sigh. You tried equilibrium can maintain KH?

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## greenie

> greenie, seacham equilibrium can maintain KH? I read the description is only increase GH? I now use baking soda to up KH but it always goes bk to Zero. Sigh. You tried equilibrium can maintain KH?


Oops, I meant calcium carbonate dry form. Yeah Equilibrium for GH more than Kh. Thanks for pointing out.

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## Urban Aquaria

Not sure about KH affecting mini pellia growth, but from my experience with them so far, i noticed the mini pellia in my low tech tank without any fertilizer dosing seems to grow noticeably healthier and brighter then the ones in my high tech tank with lots of fertilizer dosing.

So it might be a case whereby mini pellia could sometimes get "burnt" by high nutrient content in the water column. Just a guess.

Btw, it's usually not a good idea to dose pH or KH additives when using active soil substrates like ADA aquasoil (which are constantly working to reduce pH and KH), that will just serve to "fight" against the soil characteristics and exhaust it's buffering capacity faster.

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## Ingen

> Not sure about KH affecting mini pellia growth, but from my experience with them so far, i noticed the mini pellia in my low tech tank without any fertilizer dosing seems to grow noticeably healthier and brighter then the ones in my high tech tank with lots of fertilizer dosing.
> 
> So it might be a case whereby mini pellia could sometimes get "burnt" by high nutrient content in the water column. Just a guess.


Agrees with UA. My mini pellia grow quite well in my minimal fertilization, co2 shrimp tank, it's those kind of moss where they do well when you put it in and forget about it. I have some of the same batch in my high co2, fertilization and chilled tank and they don't seem to be doing great at the moment. Just weird like that...

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## seudzar

Anyone having mini pellia in non chiller tank?

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## Ingen

> Anyone having mini pellia in non chiller tank?


Mine that's growing well is not on chiller, but it's in an air-con room most of the day. Does that count haha.

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## Urban Aquaria

My tanks have no chillers running on them either... current room/water temperature averages 27-28°C (thanks to the relatively cool weather these few months), but they have also been though those super hot hazy months in may/june where the water temperature went up to 30°C in the afternoons. Didn't notice much issues with the mini pellia growth during those temperature ranges either.

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## seudzar

You guys all tempt me to try. Ingen, air con room consider chilled water

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## sword28

seudzar, yes, please go try. MP is the nicest moss to me.  :Smile: 

UA, does PH and KH always go hand in hand? meaning to increase KH, only way is to increase PH?
I am confused, because I thought KH is supposed to "guard" against PH swing, so how can it increase/decrease together with PH? I am lost.

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## sword28

ya, I guess mine turned brown is also maybe because it gets "burnt" by the bornewild ferrum.

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## Urban Aquaria

> UA, does PH and KH always go hand in hand? meaning to increase KH, only way is to increase PH?
> I am confused, because I thought KH is supposed to "guard" against PH swing, so how can it increase/decrease together with PH? I am lost.


Well... in simple terms, KH (carbonate hardness) helps to buffer against pH swings, so if you want to have a higher pH (ie. keeping hardwater fishes like african lake cichlids), then the KH will also need to be high enough to keep the pH stable... but this is based on tanks that do not use active soil substrates and which want to maintain specific (usually higher) pH conditions.

In tanks using active soil substrates, the soil substrate itself now controls and buffers the pH (usually keeping it lower to encourage plant growth) and hence it also has to lower the KH too (often until 0-1) in order to maintain the lower pH (otherwise the pH will keep increasing), so it works on a different way compared to tanks which use inert substrates.

Most of the aquarium chemistry articles and forum threads you've probably read online are written by "traditional" aquarists using gravel or sand substrates and focusing mainly on keeping fishes (especially those posted in overseas USA forums and sites, check their post dates too, some are super old and they are still using plastic fake plants). They are not running high-tech planted tanks with ADA Amazonia aquasoil and live plants so their information and approach is different.  :Very Happy:

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## limz_777

> My tanks have no chillers running on them either... current room/water temperature averages 27-28°C (thanks to the relatively cool weather these few months), but they have also been though those super hot hazy months in may/june where the water temperature went up to 30°C in the afternoons. Didn't notice much issues with the mini pellia growth during those temperature ranges either.


Odd mine died off within a week at high temp 28-30, where you get your mp batch from?

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## Urban Aquaria

> Odd mine died off within a week at high temp 28-30, where you get your mp batch from?


I got my mini pellia from a friend, he also grew his mini pellia in non-chilled tank. Could be based on temperature acclimation (perhaps the plant tissue is already in "warm water" form?)... though when plants don't do well in tanks, it could also be due to other parameters and conditions, might not be just temperature.

Guess if a plant really needs cool water to grow and have to install chiller just to grow it, it'll be way too troublesome to keep.  :Very Happy:

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## greenie

I'll go with the low kH theory for the moment to re-establish my Mini Pellia in my high light /fert dosing chilled tank. I've seen pics of UA's "park and forget" mini pellia tank. Even if I managed to grow a batch of mini pellia in our ambient temp (28-30C), low maintenance tank, it will of little use for me as I want to grow them in my high light main tank.

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## limz_777

maybe lets debunk the myth ,possibility of being killed by fertilizer is there , one observation i notice is most mp growers are usually in crs tank where fertilizer are hardly used ,sword mention that he added Borneo Wild Ferrum , which contains fe edta , which iron sulphate (thou not iron chelate) is used to get rid of moss and liverwort , currently i dont have any mp to test , can try some test on small container if you guys want

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## liu.bohfang

hi, i'm a mp lover and base on my past experience i spend $$$$ and they die off within a month without chiller,28c-29c.
Now i invest a chiller,24c-25c they spread everywhere and create natural humps conecting to rocks and driftwoods.Colour wise,they were beautiful green before last OCT. went on tour and add some Azoo algae tablets.After return,many mp die and now they still grow like weeds but the colour is not so nice as before.i guess because the algae killer residule is still there 

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

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## Urban Aquaria

> I'll go with the low kH theory for the moment to re-establish my Mini Pellia in my high light /fert dosing chilled tank. I've seen pics of UA's "park and forget" mini pellia tank. Even if I managed to grow a batch of mini pellia in our ambient temp (28-30C), low maintenance tank, it will of little use for me as I want to grow them in my high light main tank.


Thats true... most people would also want to grow mini pellia in high tech tanks which get lots of fertilizer dosing too (especially those that do EI dosing), so i guess just have to tweak the other conditions to encourage mini pellia growth.

The low kH factor is an uncertainty though, because that would mean that everyone who uses ADA Amazonia aquasoil (or any other good active soil substrates) would have problems growing mini pellia, since the active soil will constantly buffer the kH to 0-1.

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## greenie

Limz_777, u can theory. Maybe I grab a portion at lfs today and try the low maintenance, no chiller setup while also see through the 3-4 kh in my main tank.

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## sword28

sigh ... I also now more inclined to the theory that high fert can "burn" the MP.
because last time I also grow MP before in ADA soil and chiller setup, no problem... only diff is that time no CO2.

sigh ... I actually kill my MP with the dosing of Ferrum.
so what is the best way now to flush out the residue of Ferrum that is still in the tank besides frequent WC?
using charcoal can help?

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## seudzar

Now I a bit itchy on mp, UA, when you have mp to let go, do let me know since yours can maintained in low tech tank. Hahaha

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## Urban Aquaria

> Now I a bit itchy on mp, UA, when you have mp to let go, do let me know since yours can maintained in low tech tank. Hahaha


I just sold off some a while back. Only problem with low-tech tank is the growth rate also slow... have to wait a long time for it to grow out again.  :Grin:

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## seudzar

> I just sold off some a while back. Only problem with low-tech tank is the growth rate also slow... have to wait a long time for it to grow out again.


Faint.... Hahahaha

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## limz_777

> Limz_777, u can theory. Maybe I grab a portion at lfs today and try the low maintenance, no chiller setup while also see through the 3-4 kh in my main tank.


no promises  :Opps:  , if you review past years thread on this 99 % answer is chilled water , i did remember mine tank was dose with lushgro micros(which contain fe) which also i bought the mp batch that died within a week which was claim grown in 30 degree water , later found out its daytime 30 nighttime aircon , only way is to test heat tolerant MP ones

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## TreylCham

strange maybe just melting back

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## greenie

After a month keeping my KH around 4-6 using CaCO3 dosing, my MP grew back and slightly thicker. For a year it did not grow and looks like dying now I'm happy. 

Maybe it's unique to my tank but everything is more or less constant eg fert dosage, C02, high light, chiller and ADA Aquasoil.

Around the same time I setup a low maintenance nano shrimp tank with chiller. I try to throw some clumps of my main tank MP there and see it's growth rate.

So I can see low vs high maintainance tank.

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