# General > Member's Lounge > Photography >  Advice needed on a Camera Body & equipment

## Aquaculture

I'm new at photography.... overwhelmed by what to choose or where to start with. Basically, I'm budgeting about $1.5k to get a 2nd hand SLR camera and probably some equipment. Photos that I would like to take are like family outtings, nature and macro shots.

Do hope you may shed some light as I've kindda lost my direction on which one to get, be it brand or anything  :Crying: . But being a noob, I'm quite set on getting a 2nd hand just to play around till I at least get the foundation corect.

Another school of thought is the different functions, provided by different makes and models...  :Exasperated:  

Please try to use layman terms with your replies as I've read some of the treads and tried cross referencing on the terms/jargons used but only to get deeper and deeper into the Land of Sotongs...  :Sad:

----------


## Shadow

There lots of canon user here at AQ  :Grin: 

Canon DSLR entry level is 400D, the price should probably/hopefully go down once 450D is out (very-very soon). Not sure if IT show start selling 450D.

It was my first DSLR, bough it December'07 2nd hand with kits lense for $900 with more than 6 months warranty left. I send it to Canon service center for checkup and sensor cleaning. It is not suppose to be free, but somehow I don't need to pay anything.  :Grin:  maybe because still under warranty  :Huh?:

----------


## Simon

with that budget, you will be good for the 350d+420/430ex+100mm macro.

----------


## benny

I don't think you can get a hands on of the Canon EOS 450D at the show.

Their show offering is listed here.

http://www.canon.com.sg/itshow/ITshow-2.html

Going into used equipment is a great way to maximise your budget. I would suggest either a used Canon or Nikon entry level camera and focus more of lens and flashes. Grow the sytem from there to suite your needs.

A basic used system will usually include a camera body and a kit lens. That should get you started already. You can opt to add a used flash or a used macro lens and still be within your budget.

Oh... and it's the skills, not the gear that gives you great pictures. And learning on internet is free and shooting in digital is almost free. 

Cheers,

----------


## Aquaculture

> There lots of canon user here at AQ 
> 
> Canon DSLR entry level is 400D, the price should probably/hopefully go down once 450D is out (very-very soon). Not sure if IT show start selling 450D.
> 
> It was my first DSLR, bough it December'07 2nd hand with kits lense for $900 with more than 6 months warranty left. I send it to Canon service center for checkup and sensor cleaning. It is not suppose to be free, but somehow I don't need to pay anything.  maybe because still under warranty


Wow! That seems like a good buy Robert. Hope I'm as lucky as you. I was told that for Nikon, the entry level seems cheap but the gadgets are expensive, whereas for Canon, its the opposite. Moreover there are more Canon users which related to more support and hopefully more spice in the camera marketplace.  :Smile: 

Thanks for the url Benny. Its conclusive now that I'm aiming at the a 2nd hand to stretch as much as I can for what I have. Skill, its something I don't have at the moment... initially I was thinking of 'eating snake' by the usage of functions or probably not. 

How much would you reckon a pre-loved 350d+420/430ex+100mm macro would cost Simon? 

But a major risk I would potentially be facing in 2nd hand goods is how to check it for its quality. Would really appreciate if you may give me some pointers... thanks

----------


## Simon

looking at second hand prices
350d - ~550-650
420/430ex - 200-300
100mm - ~700

----------


## benny

By the way, do a search for pictures by hristo's (AQUASAR). He has amazing pictures taken with a 350D, 2 flashes and a 50 mm lens that will put many other photographer with much more extensive/expensive gear to shame.

Also have a look at Andreas Werth's thread about close up photography with a 50 mm lens.

These folks and their works are proof that gear is secondary to skills.

Cheers,

----------


## Shadow

> But a major risk I would potentially be facing in 2nd hand goods is how to check it for its quality. Would really appreciate if you may give me some pointers... thanks


For flash, I usually not really care as long as the price is right
For Camera body and Lense, I look for the one with warranty sill left. The reason is because I'm also total newbie, better let the service center do the checking  :Razz:

----------


## Aquaculture

With the 450D already out, I'll be real lucky to find a 350d under warranty. I'm a noob too, am thinking of pumping in a little more dough for the assurance of a 400d warranty card...though the estimated figures provided by Simon is really attractive. Hristo & Andreas Werth's photographic skills are really superb.

----------


## Aquaculture

Yours is definetely a good buy Robert. Am surfing and found a out of warranty selling for $1050...  :Sad: 

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356872

----------


## Aquaculture

:Smile:  Found a 350d for sale. Really appreciate if its a good buy as it comes with a warranty. If yes, I'll contact the seller. Thanks.

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355169

Greatly appreciate your advices.

----------


## Goondoo

I thought its already sold?  :Opps:  :Opps:

----------


## Aquaculture

> I thought its already sold?


Which thread are you referring to Billy? I really don't know the status of both. Its the 1st time I ventured into that forum. I'm a handicap with pre-loved camera condition... a warranty for now is my only assurance.

----------


## Goondoo

The last thread mentioned that the camera is already sold.

----------


## Aquaculture

May I know what is a shutter count? I assume its rather important as buyers seems to ask that same question. Here's what I found out;

Canon
XXXD series - 40,000 shutter count. 
XXD series - 100,000 shutter count.
XD series - 200,000 or 300,000 shutter count

What happens after that?

----------


## trident

> May I know what is a shutter count? I assume its rather important as buyers seems to ask that same question. Here's what I found out;
> 
> Canon
> XXXD series - 40,000 shutter count. 
> XXD series - 100,000 shutter count.
> XD series - 200,000 or 300,000 shutter count
> 
> What happens after that?


After that go to Canon Service Centre and change the shutter.
Once the shutter reached it's limit it might not work properly.
One point to note if you are getting the Canon 100mm Macro lens, make sure it's the USM model. The earlier model doesn't have USM.

----------


## Andreas Werth

Hi,




> After that go to Canon Service Centre and change the shutter.


I fear, that for entry level dslr this won&#180;t pay of.
In Europe you get a 400D body for less than 470 Euro. Some years ago 300D invented DSLR for 1000 Euro and pulled down a price limit. So today you get a better camera for less than half the price. The kit lens isn&#180;t a bad start and well worth the small extra charge. My suggestion for additional gear would be 1) EF-S 60/2.8 and 2) a (used) 420EX/430EX/550EX/580EX flashgun in good condition. Either with a cord or better with infrared transmitter ST-E2.
I&#180;m not sure whether how much that would be in your country, here in germany it would be around

530€ - new 400D kit 
320€ - new EF-S 60/2.8
175€ - used 420EX
a) 185€ - new ST-E2
b) 55€ - new Canon Off-camera Shoe Cord 2
====
a) 1210€ = 1790$
b) 1080€ = 1600$

In Europe there are Cashback Promotions as well...
You could keep expenses even smaller by getting some of the gear above used.

I&#180;m sure there is a similar Nikon combination as well, but I know Canon equipment better and Nikon should answer somebody else, maybe Eric ;-)

Whatever brand you take, go to a store and try the get the camera into your own hand, making some test shots...

----------


## Aquaculture

Thanks for the advice Andreas & trident. I'll be on the lookout for second deals on the 350d. Slowly upgrade as I learn...  :Smile:

----------


## Aquaculture

May I know what is the buying culture at Clubsnap photography? I noticed that a seller states a price then potential buyers come and and sort of start bidding, thought there isn't any indication that its an auction.

----------


## Shadow

yeah, it is like that a bit abiguous. Even if it is a bid, there is no closing time. So what I do usually is either post or PM the price that I'm willing to pay.

----------


## Simon

Aquaculture

yes, the culture there has always been like that, sellers put down their desired selling price and buyers usually will bid lower but it will depend alot on the sellers, some will indicate a starting bid price and a buy now price

----------


## zenscape

If the seller indicates that the price is FIXED then the offer to sell is just that price. If he leaves it open without the word 'Fixed', many will try to bid a lower price. Some sellers will mention 'neg' which still mean the same, open for bids. When a seller say BNP, it means 'Buy Now Price' and if you offer his BNP, you should get the offer instead of bidding like the rest.

----------


## Aquaculture

Thanks Robert... its kindda a game then. Haiz... at least I can try my luck  :Grin:

----------


## Aquaculture

I've decided to wait till the launch of Canon 450D... not because I'm gonna purchase it but I believe prices of the 350D or 400D would drop  :Smile:  trouble now is my hands are rather itchy  :Opps:

----------


## Aquaculture

Count myself lucky! Got myself a 2nd hand, 4 days old Canon 400D with kit lens and has 15months warranty left at 3/4 of the selling price.  :Smile:  

Thanks for the advices thought this decision process guys.

----------


## benny

ooh.... the fun begins!!

Cheers,

----------


## trident

or should I say the spending begins?  :Smile: 
congrats aquaculture,
good camera, the 400D, nice big LCD screen.

----------


## celticfish

@ Aquaculture,
Wow, you lasted a whole nine days!!  :Laughing:

----------


## trident

.........but who's counting?  :Grin:

----------


## Wackytpt

Hehe...
another has fallen into the magnificent hobby...

Time to burn more money  :Razz: 

ST-E2, Flashes, Memory Card, Dry Cabinet, etc... 

Opps...

----------


## Aquaculture

You're so right guys. I'm now hunting for a dry cabinet, a camera bag, tripod, flash and later lens... gosh :Shocked:  the list goes on. Any recommmendations on the above, especially the dry cabinet and camera bag for a start?

Actually I would have lasted lesser than 9 whole days celticfish, if not for an overseas assignment.... well, its a blessing in disguise.  :Smile:

----------


## celticfish

For sequence I'd suggest the dry cabinet first.
Then the flash or ST-E2.
Followed by the lens and bag.

For the bag, take your time since you don't know what you need in it yet.
Plus there are many brands and designs to choose from.
This one gave me the biggest headache on choice.

Flash, go for 2 x 420EX as this will cost you about $250 each.
This gives you felxibility of two flash at the cost of about one 580EX.
Then hunt for a 550EX or 580EX.

ST-E2... no choice. "Die die must buy!"

Lens, can use the standard lens to shot first.
You just have to crop to get critique for the picture but at least you can start right away.

----------


## Aquaculture

Thanks for the fast reply celticfish. Will any brand of dry cabinet do?

Currently I've kept mine in a ziplock bag with a small packet of silicon. Will that do temporarily?

----------


## Wackytpt

Go to Suntec Carrefour

I got my Dry Cabinet from there.

Brand : Digi Cabi

Size: 60L.

Price: 1XX

As for ST-E2, it is currently out of stock in Singapore. 

I just gotten mine today from Shanghai.  :Smile:

----------


## trident

Aquaculture,
Agree with celtic, get the dry box first. Digi-Cabi is the brand.
I got one of those, 30L cost me $105.00, new.
Ziplock with plenty of silicon gel should be ok for a while.
And don't forget the macro lens.
For ST-E2, I had a hard time looking for 1. Finally
got a grey set at Orient Foto, Sim Lim Square.

----------


## Wackytpt

Hi,

If you are still looking for a ST-E2, fast go grab this.

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364059

----------


## Shadow

grab it while available, not many people selling second ST-E2 out there  :Grin:

----------


## Aquaculture

Thanks for the infor Wackytpt. Already pmed him. Hope he get back soon...

----------


## Aquaculture

> Hi,
> 
> If you are still looking for a ST-E2, fast go grab this.
> 
> http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364059


Hope I get some replies soon. 

Seller just contacted me and I'll be meeting him soon. Its a 15mths old set. Is there anything for me to look out when I'm testing this 2nd hand set? 

Thanks.

----------


## trident

Aquaculture,
I don't know whether you have bought your macro lens. Here's the link for a Tamron and Canon macro lens.
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364332
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=362376

----------


## celticfish

Aquaculture, no shortage of volunteers to provide poison!!  :Laughing:

----------


## Aquaculture

Oh my.... if only I've got enough ammo to buy, buy, buy.  :Confused:  I'm looking at flash and tripod with ballhead for the moment.... Then come the lens as I need to brush up on my foundation 1st.

Any pointers to look out while inspecting pre loved ST-E2?

----------


## celticfish

Just realize you said you need to buy a flash...
If you don't have a flash you can't really test the unit.
Maybe ask the seller to bring a flash to test.
One thing to look out for is the red clear plastic in the front.
It has a bad habit of dropping off.
Mine did and someone's at the photography workshop too.
Other than that I'm at a lost other than the "cosmetics" of the unit...  :Opps:

----------


## Aquaculture

Yup. In need of a flash but decide to get the ST-E2 1st as its not so readily available in the market. Anyway meeting buyer at his house, borrowing of flash shouldn't be any problem.  :Smile:

----------


## Wackytpt

Opps... did I just poison him  :Razz: 

Haha... What flash are you looking for?

----------


## Aquaculture

heehee.. if a cow doesn't want to drink water, how *you* force... there's no way you can make it drink.  :Laughing:  Well, I'm a cow that is rather thirsty. Needn't force and I'll bottoms up. I'm building up my equipment list at a slower pace than I wish. One reason is money, the other more scary reason... my wife  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

I'm looking at either the 550EX or 580EX but purchase is probably next month.

----------


## trident

Just helping him to spend his money "Wisely"  :Laughing: 
For ST-E2, test the various channels to make sure it worked.
And of course make sure it can trigger the flash off.
Other than that can't think of anything else.

If you haven't bought the macro lens and budget is tight
maybe can look into using extension tube and a prime lens.

----------


## Wackytpt

I also haven't gotten my macro lens.

 :Razz:

----------


## Shadow

Not to mention extra flash, at least 2 plus mirror. I'm currently hunting for 550ex as well  :Opps: 

Macro lens wise, I probably will be using 250D or 500D

----------


## hwchoy

I cannot loan out my EF 100/2.8 macro, but can loan out a reverse 50/1.8 with EF adaptor.

----------


## Aquaculture

> If you haven't bought the macro lens and budget is tight
> maybe can look into using extension tube and a prime lens.


Extension tube and prime lens? My kongfu hasn't reach that level yet. Can explain a little on what it is? Is it a DIY?

What is a reverse hwchoy? Sorry, I'm still trying to learn the jargons ..  :Razz:

----------


## hwchoy

wacky, reverse lens booked for you.

aquaculture, reverse lens means mounting a lens backwards i.e. the mount facing towards subject which will basically magnify the subject.

----------


## Aquaculture

I'm now a proud owner of a ST-E2. One less poision you can administer me with ...  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## trident

Aquaculture,
Congrats, 1 down xxx to go  :Laughing: 
As for extension tube and prime lens,
It is a hollow tube (no element) which mounts in between the lens and camera body. The purpose is to move the lens farther from the digital sensor. The farther away the lens is, the closer the focus, the greater the magnification.
You can read up on marco photography here
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261356

----------


## luenny

Forget extension tube and reverse mount, etc. Get a macro lens first. The rest are so much harder to use compare to a macro lens. But if you're an expert at shooting macro already, you can consider the others.

----------


## Aquaculture

The rest of my shopping list are;

1) (x2) 550EX or 580EX
2) tripod
3) Macro lens - a EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro?
4) Wide Angle lens - thought of using the EF 17-40mm f/4L as one
5) Zoom lens - _seriously_ thinking of the EF 70-200mm f/4L
6) Release cable??

Guess that will make me a happy man.  :Smile:  But I'm open for suggestions to other product replacement as items selected are from reviews I've read.

----------


## Shadow

Instead of release cable why not buy the RC-1, IR wireless one. How about 10-20mm?  :Grin:

----------


## Aquaculture

> Instead of release cable why not buy the RC-1, IR wireless one. How about 10-20mm?



That's a GREAT idea!  :Smile:  Frequency shouldn't interfer with the ST-E2 right?

----------


## Shadow

shoudn't be, I have been using it. Some fish is very shy usually hide among the vegetation when people around, so with wireless I can hide far-far away  :Grin: .

----------


## tcy81

> 4) Wide Angle lens - thought of using the EF 17-40mm f/4L as one


This lens may not be wide enough on a 1.6x crop DSLR
 :Smile:

----------


## hwchoy

do you already have an idea what kind of subjects you want to do with the wide and the zoom lenses? it would ultimately decide if your choices are wide enough, long enough and fast enough.

----------


## celticfish

You may want to consider 2 x 420EX + 1 x 550/580EX.
This will give you the flexibility of three flashes for about the same price.

----------


## trident

celtic,
well, that's my plan too, get 1x550ex and 2x420ex.
Now I got 1x550ex and 1x420ex, the second 420ex kinda hard to get, not many people selling it (secondhand).

----------


## Shadow

For full tank and fish photography, does it make any different if using 420ex/430ex/550ex/580ex? In other word, in term of fish photography is there any feature available on 580ex that make lower flash series in disadvantage? assuming you are using ST-E2

----------


## Aquaculture

> do you already have an idea what kind of subjects you want to do with the wide and the zoom lenses? it would ultimately decide if your choices are wide enough, long enough and fast enough.


Whether the choice is wide, long, fast enough is kindda confusing and...poisionous.  :Grin:  

Don't really know how to put it into words. Kindda overwhelmed on how to express it. Humm...I would love to take natural landscpae, some action scene, etc. The ability of being able to zoom in from a distance while the subject remains naturally at play. 

I'll borrow a 70 - 200 this weekend from a friend and experiment with it....  :Smile:

----------


## Aquaculture

> For full tank and fish photography, does it make any different if using 420ex/430ex/550ex/580ex? In other word, in term of fish photography is there any feature available on 580ex that make lower flash series in disadvantage? assuming you are using ST-E2


There's some writeup on the comparsion

http://photo.net/equipment/canon/580ex/

What I'm concern here is that it used the higher range of bodies like the EOS 20D (and EOS 1D Mk II with firmware update)... how about entry level camera of the 400D. Are we still able to use those added functions?

----------


## hwchoy

> The ability of being able to zoom in from a distance while the subject remains naturally at play.


eg if you want to do that to a buffalo, you can use 200. a monkey, maybe slap on a converter to get 300. but to do that to a bird, you are looking at 500-600 plus extender.

so think hard what are the likely subjects.

----------


## Shadow

> There's some writeup on the comparsion
> 
> http://photo.net/equipment/canon/580ex/
> 
> What I'm concern here is that it used the higher range of bodies like the EOS 20D (and EOS 1D Mk II with firmware update)... how about entry level camera of the 400D. Are we still able to use those added functions?


My concern on the other hand is limited budget  :Sad:  and full tank/fish photography. I just remember during the AQ workshop, Benny show us small dumb flash. So I guess fish photography where you are using small tank power is not a concern.

How about full tank photo, say 2ft deep tank. Does it make different between 420ex, 430ex, 550ex and 580ex especially after the diffuser?

----------


## Aquaculture

Ya...vitamin M is also my concern. That's why I prefer to pop questions in AQ rather than in CS. I feel that AQ's replies are more frank and like putting themselves into my shoes.

----------


## celticfish

@ Shadow,
I'm sure there are differences in the capability of the 420EX vs. 550EX.
But the main reason I got the combo was that it offered the flexibility of three flashes.
Or, you can get the 2 x 550/580EX for the side flash and use slaves for the top of the tank.

I recall hearing about a tank photography session at a member's home that required something like 12 or 15 flashes.
All Canon flashes and no slaves...  :Surprised: 
But I believe there were enough photographers who helped to contributed flashes for the session.
As the "guru" says, you can never have too much light!  :Grin: 


@ Aquaculture,
I think its the more focused advice you get in AQ.  :Smile:

----------


## Shadow

Aquaculture, some one selling Rc-1 at CS

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=367013

----------


## zenscape

> My concern on the other hand is limited budget  and full tank/fish photography. I just remember during the AQ workshop, Benny show us small dumb flash. So I guess fish photography where you are using small tank power is not a concern.
> 
> How about full tank photo, say 2ft deep tank. Does it make different between 420ex, 430ex, 550ex and 580ex especially after the diffuser?


Yes Robert, there is a difference. I have both 420ex and 550ex and I tested both individually for full tank aquascape picture taking. 420ex is lacking coverage and intensity and 550 ex is more powerful. For the latter, I have to adjust faster shutter speed couple with bigger aperture to avoid over exposure.

----------


## Shadow

How do you setup your flash? do you put both 550 and 420 on top? how big is the tank?

----------


## zenscape

> How do you setup your flash? do you put both 550 and 420 on top? how big is the tank?


I set it up on top of the tank with a big plastic box, using one flash on top of the box. This is to avoid over burnt in one area. My tank is small- 100 litre.

----------


## Shadow

I see, I was thinking to get smaller flash beside for the money, also because I want to put it on the side (left and right) as filler light. I'm trying to fill those shadow with light, not sure if this the correct way though  :Razz: .

----------


## tcy81

wondering as my tank is only a 1.5ft tank, would a single flash be good enough for full tank shot ?

----------


## zenscape

Chee Yong, one flash is enough for a full tank shot. 
I am not an expert but it certainly works for me by using one flash blasting right on top. But if your layout consists lots of dark spots caused by plants or hardware and you want to brighten it up, as Shadow just suggested, you may place 2 more flashes by the side to overcome. 

On the other hand, if you have only one flash and you still want to overcome black spots, Benny suggested to me before to place mirrors at an angle by the sides to bounce the light from top into the side of the tank. This approach is slightly tricky than having additional flashes by the sides and you need afew rounds to get the angle correct. Certainly, this method is more economical  :Grin:

----------


## tcy81

oh, interesting. Now must look for some mirrors.
also need to find ST-E2.

----------

