# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  Killies.com's 2nd Gathering

## RonWill

Hi folks,
Many of you have asked whether our pending 2nd Gathering will materialize and I'm happy to say, it can and it will, coinciding with Aquarama 2005.

This time around, our host and location will be at *Eco Culture*, sharing the same address as "Cichlids Forever" at 1024, Upper Serangoon Road SG-534762.

The 'rules of engagement' will basically follow the well thought out approach laid out by Kwek Leong for our *1st Gathering* but I'm sure he has more to say  :Wink:  

Date of Gathering is confirmed on *Saturday, May 28th 2005* at *4pm* and I'm also pleased to make available, limited pairs or trios, of the following:

_Chromaphyosemion bitaeniatum_ 'Ekondo Titi'
_Chromaphyosemion splendopleure_ 'Moliwe'
_Aphyosemion ahli_ 'Kribi'
_Aphyosemion australe_ 'Cape Esterias' EBT 96-27

_Paraphyosemion gar. gardneri_ 'Lafia'
_Paraphyosemion nigerianus_ 'Lokoja'

_Fundulosoma thierryi_
_Nothobranchius sp. aff. rubripinnis_ 'Lisinjiri River' TAN 97-27
_Austrolebias nigripinnis_ 'Villa Soriano'

_Simpsonichthys fulminantis_ 'Guanambi' BHS 95-12
_Simpsonichthys igneus_
_Simpsonichthys magnificus_ 'Itacarambi' B7

If the display tanks are readied in time and depending on the juvenile's growth, I may have the following; (for display due to limited fishes)
_Simpsonichthys suzarti_ 'South Bahia' CI 99
_Simpsonichthys sp. aff. stellatus_ 'Urucuia'

Fellow killie-keepers, who have available eggs and fishes, can followup on the list, and let's all look forward to a helluva fun day!

Those who've been waiting to add killifishes into their tanks must really try to attend. It's a rare occasion, to be able to see the various killie genera and species.

If those _Daphnia magna_ cultures did not go south, you folks will be impressed by the critters' size but fortunately, the Walter Worms will make their 1st debut appearance locally and will be available as starter cultures.

It has taken a fair bit of co-ordination and effort to raise 'em killies but it will be worth it. See ya all there.

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## PohSan

Ha, finally.

For some reason I do not have enough fish for sale, however I can help to do some labour work during the gathering.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## stormhawk

I should be having eggs of the following species available in time for the gathering :

_Simpsonichthys alternatus_ "João Pinheiro"
_Simpsonichthys hellneri_
_Simpsonichthys fulminantis_ "Guanambi" BHS 95/12
_Simpsonichthys suzarti_ "South Bahia" CI 99

and probably from _Fundulosoma thierryi_ as well, if the fellas are co-operative.

The list may change if I'm unable to get a good number of eggs from the breeders.

No fish yet as I lost a batch of fry recently. The ones I have growing up will be my breeders for that period.

May bring starters of vinegar eel cultures but I've got to get my old culture up and booming again after a period of neglect.  :Laughing:

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## stormhawk

Ron, let me know if you need help for the plans. By the way, who's going to be our photographer?  :Laughing:

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## imported_lily

> By the way, who's going to be our photographer?


Hey guys,

I can be the photograher for that day if the "price" is right..  ::smt003: 

Ok, ok jokes aside, I will be there "to snap" if my help is needed.  :Wink:

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## Svein

> Simpsonichthys suzarti 'South Bahia' CI 99



Nice to see that you have "Norwegian Killis"  :Smile:  andlily take pictures so we can see what happen  :Cool:  
Regards
Svein

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## stormhawk

Svein, I bet there'll be more than one photographer on that day.  :Laughing:  

I'm bringing my power cord and supply unit (power converter) so that I can keep shooting all day long.  :Very Happy: 

Yes it was a "Norwegian" killie. Say thanks to Arve (did I get the name right?) for having spread them around.  :Wink:

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## zmzfam

I'll have some pairs of the _Rivulus cylindraceus_ 'Al Castro' strain available on that day.

Let's see if I coax my _Fp. nigerianus_ 'Makurdi' to give me eggs.

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## stormhawk

Zul, try getting the _Scriptaphyosemion cauveti_ to give up some eggs too.  :Wink:

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## timebomb

Ronnie,

I'll bring some trios of the _Austrolebias nigripinnis_ 'Villa Soriano', _Aphyosemion australe_ (Aquarium strain) and _Nothobranchius rachovii_ (Aquarium strain). 

One lesson we learnt from the last gathering was that there must be enough space for people to move around. It was so warm in Karin's shop the last time I almost fainted  :Laughing:  I don't know how the tanks will be arranged this time but having seen the setup at "Chicilds Forever" recently, I'm concerned that the "squeeze" in this gathering will be even worse than the last one. It's real hot these days so God help us if the turnout this time is better than the last one  :Laughing: 

Ronnie, the guys who are planning to sell their Killies at the gathering need to know the percentage of cut they have to give Azmi when the fish are sold. With Karin Leow the last time, she took 30% for fish and 20% for eggs. Does Azmi have problems with this? 

For those who are bringing fry, it's important you pack them in such a way they are "cash and carry". Counting and catching fry can be a lot of work so please pack them in ready containers.

One complaint we had from the last gathering was there wasn't enough interaction between hobbyists. It was mostly just "buy and sell". I'm afraid there's nothing much we can do about this one although we encourage everyone to get to know each other better. Our gatherings are quite different from "Killifish conventions" held in other countries. We don't check ourselves into hotels and stay there for 3 days and 2 nights. In short, we won't have the luxury of space and time to mingle. But there's a coffeeshop at the corner of the street, not far from "Chicilds Forever". I would encourage those who want to know us better to stay back after the gathering so we can chit chat for a while at the coffee shop. We'll be glad to share what we know about Killifish with you.

I don't know if there's going to be an auction this time as there's just not enough space to hold one. I wonder what we're going to do if more than one buyer is interested in the same fish or eggs. You have any plans for this, Ronnie?

It would be good if those who are selling many fish bring them to the shop the night before the gathering. I'll be there to help Azmi setup the tanks and display the fish properly. 

I hope everyone will turn up. It's going to be chaos for sure but fun nonetheless  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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## timebomb

> Ron, let me know if you need help for the plans. By the way, who's going to be our photographer?


Getting someone to take the gathering pictures isn't a problem, Jianyang. I'm sure we can find many volunteers to do this. What's more important is we need a couple of volunteers to help Azmi pack fish, keep records and collect payment. Do we already have such volunteers?

Loh K L

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## stormhawk

I'll volunteer to help out if required.  :Wink:  

Will be bringing down a copy of the latest census for reference during the gathering and some other books in my collection, plus a set of printed description papers for you guys to have a look at.  :Smile:

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## imported_lily

Hey Ronnie,

I will be there as per our deal so dont forget my rewards...  :Twisted Evil:

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## RonWill

Kwek Leong,
A few issues that need consideration when organizing events like these are; location, number of people attending, a willing host and of course, an amicable arrangement that is a win-win situ for all concerned.

Space will be tight at EC's new address but in case of an unexpected turnout, we can be innovative and lay out our 'wares' along the pathway. I'm sure I'll be able to find someone to help watch over the killies.

It is probable that most items for sale will be price-matched closely to that on Aquabid (which I think best reflects supply and demand), and Azmi is game with the 30%-20% cut for fish and eggs respectively.

An auction will be interesting especially when you've proven record of a great host-master and auctioneer. I'm sure that some breeders will be willing to bring along some rare species if they know their precious won't be going for a song. It will be more realistic that biddings start off from a base price and go on from there. Let demand dictate end price... perhaps then, people will start to realize that killies are worth something.

All,
As per previous arrangement, fishes should be brought in ahead of time. Personally, mine will be there 2 days in advance, but not for sale yet. [fright colors aren't much to look at  :Wink:  ].

Do try to avoid last minute entries as it's much too stressful and we don't need more confusion with "who-brought-what".

There will be constraints in moving around the shop and if one is not comfortable with the squeeze (or sharing bodily warmth  :Rolling Eyes:  ), there's ample space along the pathway, to mingle, to catch up with old pals and make new friends. Just remember that an event is what we make of it.

I'm thinking of having adhesive shipping labels for name tags (self-service, with moniker and own name), to make for a cosier 'social factor'. I need volunteer for supplies but let me know what you think. [I'll be the one with a Steven Segal pony-tail, so you won't miss me... or know who to avoid  :Shocked:   :Laughing:  ]

For those who won't be able to attend the Saturday meet (instead of Sunday), please understand that it's impossible to cater to everbody's expectations, but we do try.

Poh San, Lily, Jian Yang and those who can volunteer to help. I appreciate the willing spirit. Contributions from everyone will make a successful event (and one to look back with fond memories).

My thoughts are somewhat jumbled while responding from workplace. Tell me if I had missed out anything.

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## RonWill

Forgot to mention that killiefolks bringing eggs and fishes should have legible labels. It will be confusing for others if they forgot what they brought home.

Fortunately, Jian Yang's compiled '*Killifish Census 2005*' is a good reference.

Now is also a good time for those interested, to do their Google searches and find out more about the respective species. Gather your thoughts, pen them down if necessary and if time permits, the experienced ones will share their experience.

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## RonWill

> I will be there as per our deal so dont forget my rewards...


 I won't forget. We have a date to watch 'House of Wax', followed by supper, followed by... Ooops! wrong forum!  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  Seriously, your assistance and presence will be appreciated.

Ladies (yeah, I'm talking to you  :Wink:  ), killie-keeping is not a "guy's thing", so be sure I see ya all there. Bring along your friends and get them hooked on killies too!

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## keehoe

Hi all, isn't that day clashes with Aquarama "show" day?

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## A.Rashid

I wish I could join in. Will miss the gathering and the Aquarama too... haiz\

Ronnie, since I cant help during that weekend, just drop me a line if you need help prior to the gathering.

Will drop by Azmi's place to help on his setup.

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## CM Media

Hi Guys, 

Sorry for the late reply. I'm just too tied-up with my work.  :Crying:  Working days and nights for me for the past month and also the coming month.  :Confused:  I've neglected my fishes and will not have much to bring down on that day. 

Nevertheless, I'll try to sort things out and get it arranged to bring some fishes down. 

I'll post up the species once I have the list. 

Ronnie, I'm always available when you need help. Do let me know what I can help you to lighten your load. :P

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## keehoe

Hi all, would plants, mosses and Invertebrates be on the show also?
Have been eyeing on KL mosses collection for sometime.

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## timebomb

> Have been eyeing on KL mosses collection for sometime.


It's a Killifish gathering but if there's interest in my mosses, I will bring them. I believe most of the mosses we know are readily available in some fish shops but I'll bring some Weeping and Willow Mosses as they are still kind of rare. 

Loh K L

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## RonWill

> Hi all, isn't that day clashes with Aquarama "show" day?


Kee Hoe, the *Aquarama 2005* is held 26th~29th May (the last 2 days open to the public).

As we have overseas visitors attending the exhibition, Kwek Leong thought it would be a good idea (and I think so too), to have our gathering coincide with it. That way, and hopefully, we can cast a wider group of hobbyists.

If you're going, there's still Sunday... while my back takes a break!

At our last Gathering, there were also tradeing and auctions for plants, but I'll let Kwek Leong handle that... kekeke  :Wink:

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## RonWill

> I'll post up the species once I have the list


Yes please and thank you. Our working life can occasionally take a big bite out of our hobby, so any contribution will help.

Nice to know I've someone to share the load with but for now, it's still manageable, albeit barely. Let's not forget that we have a goodwill shipment going to NZKA too!  :Shocked:

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## imported_lily

> I won't forget. We have a date to watch 'House of Wax', followed by supper, followed by... Ooops! wrong forum!   Seriously, your assistance and presence will be appreciated


I thought our deal should be discussed in private message and not here, now the whole world know we are going to have a date... Oops, hope Mrs Lee is not reading this...  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:  

I dont mind to help out in the packing and setting up for that day too, do call me if my help is needed.

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## keehoe

Wow, please let me know if there is anything i can help. So that none of us shall get stuck with this additional work and not have a chance to go Aquarama.

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## stormhawk

Kee Hoe, Aquarama ends on the 29th, Sunday. So we have the next day after the gathering to go to Aquarama.  :Very Happy:  

Besides, the last day of Aquarama always has great deals.  :Wink:

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## stormhawk

KL,

I suppose there's no harm in bringing down some plants and mosses for that matter.  :Wink:  

Its a hobby anyway and if these plants would pull in some people to attend, why not?  :Laughing:

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## selena

if I could made it on 28/05/05, these will be on mine list:


For sale
-Austrolebias nigripinnis Villa Soriano (eggs)
-Simpsonichthys magnificus Itacarambi B7 (eggs)
-Simpsonichthys fulminantis FUM Guanambi BHS 95/12 (eggs)
-Debbie Chia_tinantis_ KKH 98 (my youngest daughter  :Laughing:  )

FOC to members of the forum
Fried BeeHoon

_(only if I can made it on that day. I can make very mouth-watering durian fresh cream puff but killie hobby kept me busy these days. Sorry)_

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Selena

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## stormhawk

Selena, probably we can trade eggs.

How much is the Debbie Chiatinantis going for?  :Laughing:

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## hwchoy

> Selena, probably we can trade eggs.


_stormhawkii_, you have eggs too!? you collected them yourselves?  :Laughing:

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## RonWill

> if I could made it on 28/05/05, these will be on mine list:
> 
> 
> For sale
> -Austrolebias nigripinnis Villa Soriano (eggs)
> -Simpsonichthys magnificus Itacarambi B7 (eggs)
> -Simpsonichthys fulminantis FUM Guanambi BHS 95/12 (eggs)


Selena, that's a nice list. Those who're attending will be in for a treat... yummy!

FWIW, do try and attend the gathering because the next one won't be anytime soon, at least not until Aquarama *2007*  :Exclamation:  Remember folks, how well the gathering goes is what we all make out of it.

PS: What's the going price for Debbie Chia_tinantis_? Does it comes in pairs or trios?  :Laughing:   :Laughing:

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## imported_lily

> if I could made it on 28/05/05,
> FOC to members of the forum
> Fried BeeHoon


Hi Selena,

Nice to 'meet' you here, please say you can make it on that day if not, there wont be any FOC 'mee-hoon'.  :Laughing:  
Seriously, you are very thoughtful and I hereby would like to thank you even before eating your fried 'mee-hoon', so you better come.  ::smt003:

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## markc

Hi Selena, is Debbie Chiatinantis KKH 98 easy to keep? Need softwater such as coke or hardwater (Milk)?

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## stormhawk

> _stormhawkii_, you have eggs too!? you collected them yourselves?


Yes I collected them myself. From some of the adult pairs that I have and from species that are not on Selena's list.  :Wink:

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## turaco

> Originally Posted by hwchoy
> 
> _stormhawkii_, you have eggs too!? you collected them yourselves? 
> 
> 
> Yes I collected them myself. From some of the adult pairs that I have and from species that are not on Selena's list.


JY, not sure if Choy is thinking of something else  :Laughing:  

Selena,

Very impressed by your achievement, able to produce such nice species in such short time.

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## stormhawk

Gan, I had an inkling he's poking fun at me but I decided to answer in a logical manner.  :Twisted Evil:

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## selena

> Hi Selena, is Debbie Chiatinantis KKH 98 easy to keep? Need softwater such as coke or hardwater (Milk)?


MarkC,

This F1 very easy to keep, anything will do, like garbage bin and missing a front tooth. Doesn't seem to keen to be put up for sale.




> For sale 
> -Austrolebias _nigripinnis_ Villa Soriano (eggs) 
> -Simpsonichthys _magnificus_ Itacarambi B7 (eggs) 
> -Simpsonichthys _fulminantis_ FUM Guanambi BHS 95/12 (eggs)


Gan,




> Very impressed by your achievement, able to produce such nice species in such short time.


I have to thank Au for having faith in me. If I as a newbi able to hatch, rear, spawn and finally collect their eggs, anybody can do it do. These beauties doesn't require much.

Eggs production of _nigripinnis_ and _magnificus_ are more or less affect by the heat spell plus the high ratio of male to female ( males are taking queuing their turns). I have just started collecting _rochovii_  eggs too. This heat spell is affecting everybody, even my fishes are perspiring in the water. 


Jianyang, 

What eggs are you interested/trade? F0 or fishes  :Laughing:  ? If you are interested in _fulminantis_, don't forget there is a one year bond. Breach of contract term, penalty is to work for free at Ronnie's place every weekend. This is to get back at you for nominating me. Now how's mine designation for australes aquarium strain?  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:  





> FOC to members of the forum 
> Fried BeeHoon


Halah (jianyang for you especially )and 80% vegetarian. Lily I hope it is OK for you. I usually prepare this type of fried bee hoon when I do community or charity works. So far no complaint.


And for the rest of you guys and gals, hurry up with your list. Doesn't matter even if it is one bag of eggs or even one pair. Let's all try and make this event as sucessful as possible.

----------------------------------------------------

Selena

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## keehoe

Selena, some malay style fry noodle required HeMi (small dried shrimp). Don't utilise the dead fry.......

Ron might be suppling SaShiMi (slices of raw fish meat, japanese style) Ekondo Didi specialty.

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## stormhawk

Hi Selena, probably trading for eggs.  :Smile: 

Should probably have eggs of the following for a trade:

Simp. hellneri
Fundulosoma thierryi

And perhaps some eggs from the Simp. stellatus "Urucuia".  :Wink: 

If you have spare females or a trio of medium sized fulminantis, I'd be happy to buy them. My two males are driving my single female nuts!  :Twisted Evil:

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## selena

My dear Keehoe,

I would love making some of my specialty sandwiches just for you. 

White soft bread with butter spread, creamy ceddar cheese, fresh crunchy japanese cucumber, red juicy tomato slices and finally your favorite fried australes  :Laughing:  (I have a whole tankful). Bet you're drooling now.


KL,

I stopped giving fried anchovy to my kids and replaced with 'youknowwhat' fish  :Twisted Evil:  . Similar in shape, similar in sizes and no prizes for guessing  :Laughing:  .





> If you have spare females or a trio of medium sized fulminantis, I'd be happy to buy them. My two males are driving my single female nuts!


Jianyang,

Mine still underaged (I checked with the Tampines Police Station), Singapore law cannot play play. Let see if I feed them beefheart laced with steroid, maybe can supply you a more robust one.

------------------------------------------------------

Selena

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## keehoe

Hi Selena. That should be yummy. But can scale, guts, bleed and de-bone the Aus first before frying? I always drool when i see golden Aus. with flour or without.

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## keehoe

If everything works fine, i will be bringing some 

eggs:

_Simp. Igneus 
Rivulus Tenuis "Tako Talpa"_

Gan, can tell me the code/ location of the S.Igneus?

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## turaco

Kee Hoe,

_Simp igneus_

No Code. You can refer to JY's wonderful work for reference & spelling.

Fish originate from Ronnie.

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## keehoe

Full name is

_Simpsonichthys igneus Costa 2000?_

Wonder if anyone interested in it in the gathering. Nice looking fish just a bit overly shy.

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## hwchoy

> Full name is
> 
> _Simpsonichthys igneus Costa 2000?_
> 
> Wonder if anyone interested in it in the gathering. Nice looking fish just a bit overly shy.


scientific name is _Simpsonichthys igneus_, but it is a proper procedure to quote the original reference i.e. Costa 2000 which describes this fish, but usually only during first mention in an article or paper. you do not have to write "Costa 2000" at every occurence. when dealing with a single genus or where there is no ambiguity you can shorten the genus, in subsequent reference, to just the initial, i.e. _S. igneus_.

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## stormhawk

There's no need to add in Costa's name to the species name unless you mean it for scientific purposes. Since this will be a hobbyist gathering, use the data as follows.  :Wink: 

Location data is Igarité. This species is found in 3 ponds located near the city of Igarité of which all are connected during the rainy season when flooding occurs. (Ref: the original description in Portuguese and Killi-Data).

I've spent some time corresponding with some friends who tell me that most locations for _Simpsonichthys_ are connected one way or another during the rainy season, especially if they are within 5 to 10 km from each other. I can explain more during the gathering when I bring down my map.

Since locality data are based on the nearest landmark (i.e. city or town or river system) then Igarité it is.

So therefore the species plus locality data is as follows:

_Simpsonichthys igneus_ Igarité

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## hwchoy

so I should add this locality to my fish from Turaco too? got state as well?

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## stormhawk

Yes you can do so Choy.

Full locality data is:

Igarité, Bahia, Brazil

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## hwchoy

> Yes you can do so Choy.
> 
> Full locality data is:
> 
> Igarité, Bahia, Brazil


bagus!

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## FC

Hi die-hard buddies,

Glad to know that we finally have the 2nd gathering, I hope we have the same success as the first one where we had lots of participants. I am sure we will do better this time in the arrangements and program.

Having all sorts of commitments around me, it's getting more and more difficult to commit new things. Sometimes, I feel that I am not in control of my time. Nevertheless, I will make effort to participate and help up. KL and Ronnie, let me know what my body (I am silly most of the time) is good for.

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## stormhawk

Freddy, some plants from your tanks would be a great addition to the stuff that will be on sale.

Crypt. wendtii "Brown" perhaps??  :Very Happy:

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## stormhawk

Hi all, looks like egg production just dipped so I'll be bringing the following instead:

Simp. fulminantis "Guanambi" BHS 95/12 (eggs)
Simp. sp. aff. stellatus "Urucuia" (1 pair)
Rivulus cylindraceus "Al Castro strain" (1 pair)

Got nothing much else to offer. Some of the fish are pretty low on egg production. I'll update as the days go along.  :Wink:

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## PohSan

Hi all,
I hope to bring some Fundulosoma thierryi. They are still young of about 2cm in length. Do I need to bring my own tank to hold them?

I have other fish that is short of male or female so if other has mate for the fish, I will bring them as well:
1) Aphyosemion scheeli (Five male)
2) Simpsonichthys adornatus "Sitio do Mato" ( one female, male "missing in action").


Regards,
Ong Poh San

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## stormhawk

Poh San, I'll adopt the adornatus female. I have a young pair still alive with me. Should be of breeding age very soon.  :Wink:

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## stormhawk

My goodness, in my hurry to head back home I forgot all about the adornatus female that was packed in another bag. My apologies Poh San. Thanks to Au for reminding me. I'll pick up the female from Ron's place (I hope he took it home on my behalf) on Monday when I turn up to collect the live food.

To all who attended, nice meeting you fellas (guys and girls included) even though I was extremely late in arrival. Very sorry for that. Nonetheless, was pretty happy with my purchases today.  :Very Happy: 

Got myself some wonderful yet uncommon to rare SAAs and a small bag of _Corydoras habrosus_.. aww what cuties..  :Laughing: 

I hope the same went to those who bought the other killies too.

Just one question, who was taking photographs of the whole thing? I hope these people can forward me the pictures to my email account here:

[email protected]

I'm planning to create a newsletter of sorts with those images since some of my overseas friends are pretty interested in what went on in Singapore earlier today.  :Wink:  

With such an effort we might just project the right kind of image to the other association members elsewhere throughout the world.

Again, many thanks to all who attended. I hope to see you all in the near future.  :Wink:

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## stormhawk

Another bit to add on, today I finally saw some killie folk start to dabble in the cichlid area.  :Laughing:  Blue dempseys anyone? 

And yes, people started to notice the _Rivulus cylindraceus_ that Zul was offering for sale sometime back. They're pretty nice and charming fish once you get accustomed to that cigar-shaped body and pretty nice colours on the males.. AND females too.  :Very Happy: 

Thanks to both Zul and Lily, there are some pretty satisfied.. and pretty interested folks in Rivulus too.  :Laughing:

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## zmzfam

> Another bit to add on, today I finally saw some killie folk start to dabble in the cichlid area.  Blue dempseys anyone?


And they are much more livelier in a planted tank. The metallic blue sheen is just perfect.

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## stormhawk

Zul, let me know how the Dempseys work out. They're beautiful fellas but become big bruisers which are a definite no-no for me at this moment.

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## timebomb

The turnout was okay but I was kind of disappointed that there were hardly any new faces. Where were the newbies?

I wonder if it's got something to do with us, the fact that this forum is 2 years old but we have attracted so few into the hobby. It can't be the fish as Killies are the most beautiful of all tropical fishes. What do you think?

Loh K L

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## whuntley

KL

These things seem to have a natural cycle. Clubs get active and grow, and then ennui sets in or something, and they semi-stagnate or coast for a bit.

Then some hotshot gets the idea of having a show and convention and invites a couple of interesting speakers. Most folks ignore the lecture program, but crawl out of the woodwork looking for a bargain at the raffles, fish sale and auction. The club suddenly triples in attendance and a new pattern is established. Meetings are more frequent and raffles and sales/auctions get attendance up a bit until the next cycle (aka lack of enthusiastic volunteers) sets in.  :Very Happy: 

[IMHO, this step will never happen in SG if you continue to meet in fish shops. A really successful club auction/sale would drive the owner wild!]

IMHO, you guys have been right to emphasize building up your list of maintained species, as those are the heart of the hobby.

It seems you have developed a very strong support base for any newcomers. Give it time. It's like a staircase, and you have made the first couple of steps. The rest will follow in time as long as all the experienced breeders don't all go away at the same time. [That happened to BAKA and they are just now getting into recovery mode.]

When you get to thirty or forty regular attendees, don't think they will do any work. It will still be a core of 2-5 people who actually get anything done, so culture them very carefully so they get a chance to blossom.  :Wink: 

BTDTBTWW!*

Wright
______________________
*Been There Done That, Bought The Whole Wardrobe (not just the T-shirt).

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## timebomb

> These things seem to have a natural cycle. Clubs get active and grow, and then ennui sets in or something, and they semi-stagnate or coast for a bit.


You are most probably right, Wright but the Killifish scene here never took off. We get some newbies who come in periodically and they seem enthusiastic but they disappear after a while. We had 2 young men once who were so keen one wanted to open a fish shop specialising in Killies and the other wanted to go around promoting the hobby in schools. Both have disappeared and although they said they would, they didn't turn up at the gathering. Somehow or other, it's always the same old faces. The only person whom we managed to recruit from the previous gathering and who later turned out to be a real serious hobbyist is Jianyang. Other than him, I can't think of another.

I went to Aquarama and bumped into a young man who was once quite keen on killies. He's into Bettas now and he told me he won 5 prizes in the Betta competition organised by Aquarama. I didn't do a headcount but there must be at least a hundred entries for the Betta competition.

We don't have the critical mass. There are less than 10 hobbyists in Singapore who can be described as serious Killifish hobbyists. Compared to the large numbers of Betta, Guppy and Cichild hobbyists, our small core of serious breeders seems downright pathetic by comparison.

Where did we go wrong? I don't believe it is because we don't have a club. We don't need one. Other than hosting an international Killifish show, there's nothing a club can do that this forum cannot. Is it because our gatherings are always held at fish shops instead of convention halls? I don't believe that's the reason either. As far as gatherings are concerned, it's always better to hold it in a place where there are fish  :Smile:  Admission would be free whereas one would have to pay if the gathering is held in a hotel's function room.

Is it because we never had fish auctions or sales? There were many species of Killies available for sale at the gathering but hardly any newbie turned up to buy. Maybe the prices were on the high side but then again, that couldn't be the reason because how could they possibly know the fish were expensive if they didn't turn up in the first place?

I'm beginning to suspect that it's got something to do with the fish. Perhaps it's harder with Killies, the fact that many of the eggs we get from breeders overseas don't hatch and also it takes time and effort to raise sufficient numbers to keep a species going. It could be the hobbyists here prefer easier fish. Killies are just too much work for many folks.

Loh K L

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## whuntley

> Originally Posted by whuntley
> 
> These things seem to have a natural cycle. Clubs get active and grow, and then ennui sets in or something, and they semi-stagnate or coast for a bit.
> 
> 
> We don't have the critical mass. ...
> 
> Where did we go wrong? I don't believe it is because we don't have a club. We don't need one. Other than hosting an international Killifish show, there's nothing a club can do that this forum cannot. 
> Loh K L


KL,

I think you and I have already agreed to not agree on this. Apologies for going over this ground, once again.

The forum only provides a small part of the essential communication function, but it doesn't get folks off their dead backsides to bag up fish and get together socially. It has limited ability to generate donations from manufacturers that can lead to exciting monthly raffles of goods and fish. It lacks the immediacy of a dynamic speaker, in love with his collection story, etc.

Only the most avid species seeker will approach a breeder about getting some of her/his fish, and the chance for an impulse bid getting a new breeder going is virtually absent.

Most newbies are very reluctant to pose an important question on a public forum, for fear of looking ignorant (even if 98% of the readers don't know the answer). At a relaxed social function, the same question can be informally slipped past a couple of serious breeders without the same stigma attached. Listening to the group's conversation, they develop a comfort level about what is common knowledge and what is a difficult topic. The forum will simply never even get close to that informal level of assurance.

I believe physically joining together has social benefits that no electronic forum can overcome. In addition, having a legally-sanctioned structure can protect members from some kinds of liability under most British-based legal systems. That, in turn can attract members who otherwise want no part of a too-informal group that doesn't obey any rules (I'm one of those, for sure!). 

If you have a simple, plain-language charter that they can read, they can see what limits are placed on the officers and what their rights are as members. Without it, anything goes, and IME it usually eventually does.  :Very Happy:  Your rules for the forum have done wonders to make it a pleasant place to visit. The same goes exactly for a decent club charter and by-laws.

For a sample to start with, look at the Charter I wrote for BAKA some years ago. <http://www.sfbaka.net/Articlefmt.htm> [Originally used by two earlier fish clubs, BTW.] It wouldn't work under SG laws, in this exact form, but I bet a good lawyer would have only a few suggestions to make it functional for you.

Basically, it assures members that they control the club, and not the volunteers who take the main jobs on. No one reads it or refers to it, most of the time, but it is there when needed, with explicit definitions of membership, officers' responsibility, etc. This legal step is really essential when you are handling other peoples' money and fish. It protects all concerned with a legally enforceable structure.

Many BAKA Charter provisions are routinely ignored, but as long as no one cares, so what? It is mostly there to help bring things back on track if a despot takes over or the group ends up in serious policy disagreement.

Most of our AKA Affiliates start by meeting at member's homes. That gives each meeting a fishroom tour! As attendance expands, most have found the public meeting rooms at most of our Pizza Parlors are a good place to host a larger group. If you don't have those, check out where the local chapter of Rotary International meets, or other such service clubs.

I have belonged to several small associations that just made the regular meeting a chance for dinner out, and many food establishments here are set up with meeting rooms for such dinners. [Impoverished students just show up too late for the meal, but still get the companionship and chance to buy/win stuff.] There is no charge for the room as long as most buy dinner. Some require a special, fixed item menu. Pizza parlors often actually offer the most variety and informality.

You need that critical mass, and I feel strongly that regular meetings (NOT in a fish shop) with a program; raffle; sales table for live-food starters, fish bags, etc, not normally available in shops; and an auction of plants and pairs of fish or eggs; will get them streaming in.

Programs can be your local experts, like Prof. Tan, or videos rented from the AKA collection (which is huge!). Mini-presentations by local experts who can report ways to breed tougher fish are always welcomed.

It has to be regular, well publicized, and continued for many months, but you will eventually start to see the effects, if you will do it.

An early meeting should feature an all-donation auction to get a minimal treasury for the club. A bank account is vital, so the charter and local legal status are needed. After that a 50:50 or 75:25 seller:club split will work. A letter, early In Jan. to the major aquatic manufacturers, with ample proof you are a real club (Charter copy, web site URL, Newsletter, etc.) will get you a bonanza of free stuff. Local fish shops are often also willing to contribute, for the publicity they get from it.

Our local Blackworm farm in Fresno even gave out worm gift certificates to our last big WCW show in the Bay Area. Shops should do the same so the win gets someone into their store.

Sorry if I sound like a cracked record on this subject, but I do not see how you will grow by pursuing your present course. You need to get the added-value of face-to-face meetings and freedom from fish-shop interference into the process. The fish shops are great, but what you need and what they need have subtle differences that will eventually cause problems.

Wright

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## RonWill

> Sorry if I sound like a cracked record on this subject, but I do not see how you will grow by pursuing your present course


 Wright, your repeating tracks plays just fine to my ears and I do have a big piece of my mind to share but let me get over the swell of peridontal inflammation*** (and when I can start thinking straight)

***... and yes, I'll kick the living daylights out of the next chap who come up and ask if I'm "mouth-brooding"  :Evil:

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## whuntley

Sympathy, in a big way, Ron.

Sounds painful as all get out.

Wright

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## RonWill

Wright, the extraction of 2 multiple root molars was a trip to hell and I get to yelp like a b*tch when I'm on painkillers and antibiotics.

The pain, however, pales in comparison with how I felt about the gathering [more on that later while I down my next dose of meds].

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## stormhawk

Ron, no wonder you had that "pained" expression during the gathering. Must have been those molars.

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## RonWill

> ...in my hurry to head back home I forgot all about the adornatus female that was packed in another bag


 Jian Yang, forget about the adornatus... my male Blue Dempsey reminded me to thank you for the roe-filled snack  :Twisted Evil:  




> Just one question, who was taking photographs of the whole thing? I hope these people can forward me the pictures to my email account here


 Folks, there were 2 person that had tentatively agreed to take pictures of the event. One had recently acquired an AC adaptor for the digital camera so "he could shoot all day" whilst the other volunteer... well... she forgot to bring the camera. We'll know how it went when the images are uploaded.




> I'm planning to create a newsletter of sorts with those images since some of my overseas friends are pretty interested in what went on in Singapore earlier today.


 Had that been the intention, what good would that do if one was 2 hours late?

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## stormhawk

Ron,

Err.. the female's gone? Then I've got one lonely male here. His partner decide to float up a day before the gathering.  :Crying:  

I did bring my cam and the adaptor but was caught up with looking at the fishes and stuff. Again my apologies there. I hope Nonn can post up the images he took. It would be great should he decide to do so.

I did recall at least two ladies who did take pictures. Perhaps they would be kind enough to post.

About the late-coming bit, thank you for the reminder and yes, sorry again. I'll shelve the plans for the newsletter thing for now until images appear, hopefully sometime soon.

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## stormhawk

> Jian Yang, forget about the adornatus... my male Blue Dempsey reminded me to thank you for the roe-filled snack


If that's not a joke then I am sad to say this species is going the way of the dodo in Singapore.  :Sad:  Another one on the EX list. 

Looks like I have to go find eggs for *sale* again..  :Rolling Eyes:

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## RonWill

> If that's not a joke...


 Your cut-off time for collection is *6pm today*. Afterwhich, just watch how the dempseys lick their lips as I dangle the adornatus in front of them  :Twisted Evil:

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## RonWill

All,
When I left Eco Culture last night, there were no less than 12 annual and 5 non-annual species, waiting for new homes;
_Aphyosemion australe_ Orange 
_Aphyosemion australe_ Cape Esterias EBT 96-27 
_Chromaphyosemion bitaeniatum_ Ekondo Titi 
_Chrom. splendopleure_ Moliwe
_Paraphyosemion nigerianus_ Lokoja 

_Fundulosoma thierryi_
_Simpsonichthys costai_ Formoso do Araguaia B2003
_Simpsonichthys fulminantis_ Guanambi BHS 95-12
_Simpsonichthys magnificus_ Itacarambi B7
_Simpsonichthys suzarti_  South Bahia CI 99
_Simpsonichthys trilineatus_
_Simpsonichthys sp. aff. delucai_
_Simpsonichthys sp. aff. stellatus_ Urucuia 
_Austrolebias nigripinnis_ Villa Soriano
_Rivulus cylindraceus_ 'Al Castro strain'
... plus _Nothobranchius guentheri_ Zanzibar, _N. foerschi_ and _N. palmqvisti_.

Is the selection not good enough? Is there nothing worthy of the hobbyists' tanks? I have one question... where are all those people who've been asking, "Where can I buy killifishes?"***

Newbies are all too wary of eggs not hatching, buying live-fishes online, species mis-matching (by less-than-ethical suppliers) and then going on a wild goose chase for female killies.

Being able to breed some species and giving others the opportunity to acquire and maintain a good line of killie, makes time spent worthwhile... especially when my time have taken on an intrinsic value [which unfortunately is worth almost next to nothing by those who think that killies grow on trees]

My other question would be whether we made a mistake in coinciding the gathering with a major crowd-puller (Aquarama 2005). We had good intentions but was our timing terribly off? What do *you* think?

***BTW, I'm not dying for a sale nor will I get rich if all my killifishes are sold and am perfectly happy to have them back in my tanks.

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## hwchoy

mmm I might pop down to Eco and pick out a nice pair of simps. I am curious about that _S._ aff. _delucai_ and _S._ aff. _stellata_. they are undescribed species or merely looking a bit different from "normal" delucai and stellata?

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## RonWill

Choy, the names are referenced from our killie census and it's the same stellatus I raised from eggs and maintained till now. Not sure what a 'normal' stellatus would be like.

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## hwchoy

> Choy, the names are referenced from our killie census and it's the same stellatus I raised from eggs and maintained till now. Not sure what a 'normal' stellatus would be like.


mmm I checked the census so probably the best bet is to ask _stormhawki_ where all these "aff." came from. I have pix of _S. delucai_, and the fish came from Au. There is no _S. delucai_ in the census, so either it is missing from the census or the fish I have is not a _S. delucai_ but a _S._ aff. _delucai_!!  :Shocked:  

BTW to be sure I didn't lose any one, aff. delucai means "a fish that is definitely NOT a delucai but most closely resembles it."


yooooo, _stormhawki_, where are you  :Question:   :Question:   :Question:

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## CM Media

Hi Choy,

When I got the fish from the breeder, everything was still on the pending list. But I got the fish verified and that's why I took out the sp. aff. Hope that this clear your doubt. There is no other people here who has the Simp. delucai beside me. (Jianyang had took a pair during the recent gathering).

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## hwchoy

> Hi Choy,
> 
> When I got the fish from the breeder, everything was still on the pending list. But I got the fish verified and that's why I took out the sp. aff. Hope that this clear your doubt. There is no other people here who has the Simp. delucai beside me. (Jianyang had took a pair during the recent gathering).


so the census needs updating  :Smile:

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## RonWill

> Where did we go wrong? I don't believe it is because we don't have a club. We don't need one. Other than hosting an international Killifish show, there's nothing a club can do that this forum cannot


 While attending Aquarama 2005 under Press Pass, I felt the obvious lack of killifish representation. There were none exhibited (except in one or two display tanks) but plenty of staples.

Unless we make ourselves more 'real' than virtual, there can never be a 'killie scene'.

One can lament over the huge entries for bettas, guppies, discus and arowanas but what drives these facet of the hobby? *$$$* and the fact that the clubs were physically there, benching-in their entries, judging, on-site sales and recruiting newbies***.

Kwek Leong, I had harbored hope to have at least 20 killie species represented by 2007 and unless the entries are benched in by our club, none will make it. It's a big committment and helluva lot of work but isn't it something we can work towards to?

*** I wonder if we can reach a larger target audience by introducing and selling killifishes from the club's booth at such aquatic shows. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

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## whuntley

Ronnie,

I have supported and participated in many such general aquatic shows, where other species are present. For the most part, those efforts were an utter waste of time. They generated no (and I mean zero) new killifans, and were an enormous waste of volunteer time and effort. We did a little better at regular aquarium society meetings (where we give an annual program on killies) and auctions, but not a whole lot.

The activities that actually work are regular monthly killifish club meetings run in a fun way, and specialized regional or national killifish shows, run well separate from Bettas, Chicklets, etc. [We variously shared the BAKA WCW with poison dart frogs, livebearers, and Rainbows, but, every time, each of those efforts detracted from the main point and diluted volunteer effort excessively. Bad cost/benefit ratio.]

The attraction at the monthly meetings is the chance to buy some live food starters, plants, fish bags, etc., and the fun of raffles of nice fishy products. A chance to listen to some killinut being enthusiastic over his latest collection excursion (with slides of biotopes), or watching a well-made video about some aspect of killy keeping is a help in getting folks to go out in the rain. The ultimate attraction, finally, is the auction, which can be really fun with an entertaining, lively auctioneer. [It also establishes the local value of our fish in a way not otherwise possible.]

Last, but not least, is that the chance to schmooze with killifolk of all experience levels, in a relaxed environment, is not to be missed.

Killies get lost in the shuffle when asked to compete for attention with dinner-plate fish and gaudy Koi. In my opinion, you are asking to be ignored when you try to do it that way. Killifish are a special niche in the hobby that has survived despite long-established commercial failure and we must be realistic about it. Most folks don't even *like* natural, wild-type fish. They do not sell well in the shops until someone produces a pink cultivar with long fins! That isn't generally what we are about, so don't try to join that crowd if you want a really successful killifish hobby to develop in SE Asia. Look to AKA, DKG, BKA, etc. to see what actually has worked for our hobby.

That's my US$0.02. [Actually, it is free advice, again worth every penny.]

Wright

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## stormhawk

Choy,

With regard to the status of the two Simps, they are now confirmed to be of both species so therefore should be called as follows:

Simp. delucai 
Simp. stellatus "Urucuia"

The Urucuia population is generally believed to be belonging to Simp. stellatus although that might change in the near future. There is one similar looking species called rufus and this population might be assigned to it in the near future. This population was collected near the rio Urucuia close to the town of São Romao, the type locality for Simp. similis.

As for the delucai, this species was caught close to the rio Urucuia near to the town/city of Urucuia, Minas Gerais state. It is generally believed that the population in the hobby is from this locality, however I will require further confirmation with my contacts in Brazil. I'll update as and when necessary.

I hope this has cleared some doubts.  :Wink:

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## timebomb

> *** I wonder if we can reach a larger target audience by introducing and selling killifishes from the club's booth at such aquatic shows. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


Don't even think about it, Ronnie. As far as I know, the rent for a booth in Aquarama is in the region of thousands of dollars. How are we going to make a profit? Even if we're not looking for profits, there's no way we can sell enough Killies to cover the rent.

Wright thinks by forming a club we can get more folks into Killifish. I disagree. The culture here is different from countries in the West. In Singapore, clubs offer little benefits as fish shops are abundant. In countries like the USA, a club is very useful because it can help a hobbyist get what he can't find in the fish shops. That is, if he's even near a fish shop in the first place. 

The fact that clubs have little to offer leads to the problem of membership fees. The AKA charges almost Sing $100 for one year's subscription for foreign members. I don't know how much local members pay but it can't be much lower. Over here, you will have problems recruiting members if your fees are higher than Sing $50 a year. 

We couldn't get folks like Darren Lum and Sia Meng to turn up for the gathering although both promised me they would. These 2 were once real serious hobbyists, mind you. I have never met anyone with their kind of passion. The moderators here in the "Planted Tank" subforum didn't think it was necessary to attend too although they are part of our adminstrative team in Killies.com. So how are we going to persuade members to attend our meetings? What can we use as attractions that we aren't already using? Fish? There were many species for sale at the gathering but so few turned up to buy. Plants? What do we have that isn't already easily available? Many who turned up for the previous gathering did so because they wanted to buy my Downoi's and Erect Mosses. An expert to give a talk? Where do we find such a person? Who else is there besides us? Maybe we can get Wright down to give a talk but who's going to pay his airfare and hotel stay? To fly Wright from the USA to Singapore would cost a bomb and it would be hard to recoup the costs from entrance fees. With due respect to Wright, the folks here won't attend his talk if we charge anything more than $10 for entrance fees. 

I've always been against the idea of forming a club. I still am. But I would give my full support to anyone who's gungho enough to do it. Just don't ask me to be President or anything like that. My wife will kill me if she finds out I'm going to be a committee member of any fish club.

The fact of the matter is - There are many causes worth fighting for and many ideals are worth the sacrifice in time and effort but forming a fish club isn't one of them. Not in my book, anyway. If I'm going to be President, I would rather be President of Singapore. If only those damn buggers allow me to contest  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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## hwchoy

> Choy,
> 
> With regard to the status of the two Simps, they are now confirmed to be of both species so therefore should be called as follows:
> 
> Simp. delucai 
> Simp. stellatus "Urucuia"
> 
> The Urucuia population is generally believed to be belonging to Simp. stellatus although that might change in the near future. There is one similar looking species called rufus and this population might be assigned to it in the near future. This population was collected near the rio Urucuia close to the town of São Romao, the type locality for Simp. similis.
> 
> ...


no problem, just update the census  :Smile:

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## whuntley

> Originally Posted by RonWill
> 
> *** I wonder if we can reach a larger target audience by introducing and selling killifishes from the club's booth at such aquatic shows. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
> 
> 
> Don't even think about it, Ronnie. As far as I know, the rent for a booth in Aquarama is in the region of thousands of dollars. How are we going to make a profit? Even if we're not looking for profits, there's no way we can sell enough Killies to cover the rent.
> 
> Wright thinks by forming a club we can get more folks into Killifish. I disagree. The culture here is different from countries in the West. In Singapore, clubs offer little benefits as fish shops are abundant. In countries like the USA, a club is very useful because it can help a hobbyist get what he can't find in the fish shops. That is, if he's even near a fish shop in the first place. 
> 
> The fact that clubs have little to offer...


I cannot argue the cultural differences, but right here is where we come apart on perceptions. 

Raising killifish, like aquatic gardening, is a complex and highly technical hobby, when compared to the goldfish or guppy in a bowl that most folks consider to be serious aquatic involvement. Stores are utterly incapable of supporting either the planted aquarium or serious killifish involvement, in SG *or here*. [BTW, we have *two* fish shops in our tiny town, but neither are worth a visit. Who said they aren't abundant, here?]

Historically, the "kitchen breeders" of Europe pulled the hobby through the destruction of WW II by forming clannish local groups to share knowledge and fish. They were very generous with that knowledge, after the war, and serious correspondence got that technology transferred to hobbyists in the new world.

When I first tried to breed _N. guentheri_, in about 1958, we had no local or national clubs (AKA was formed at least 4 years later) and the San Francisco Aquarium Society plus academics at Stanford and Berserkely were our only sources of information. Needless to say, that information was mostly wrong and success wasn't high.

The internet and this forum have given you a kick start that I would have loved to have in 1958, but you still don't provide the infrastructure that I found in BAKA when I returned to killies after starting a family and company in the early '60s. In 1990 or thereabouts, the BAKA attendance was running about 40 per meeting, in the smelly old basement of the Hayward Round-Table Pizza parlor.

A club can provide a newsletter (dead-tree or on-line is little difference any more) that includes a good writeup on upcoming meetings, and minutes of past meetings. Much of the technical content of the hobby is passed around as personal observations and fishroom physical visits, and a core of succeeding breeders is essential to getting big enough to need a meeting room to handle the crowd. My guess is that critical mass is about 10-12 very active breeders, of which at least 6-8 bring fish to every auction.

BAKA recently fell way below that threshold, and had to back off to meeting every three months. Recent regrowth has now forced the meetings to every other month, and it will be monthly again as soon as enough fish and volunteers show up to allow it.

The club could easily have died if a few staunch volunteers had not hung in there and dragged it through the toughest times. [All the best breeders got cancer or moved away at the same time -- just bad luck.]





> snip...I've always been against the idea of forming a club. I still am. But I would give my full support to anyone who's gungho enough to do it. Just don't ask me to be President or anything like that. My wife will kill me if she finds out I'm going to be a committee member of any fish club.
> 
> The fact of the matter is - There are many causes worth fighting for and many ideals are worth the sacrifice in time and effort but forming a fish club isn't one of them. Not in my book, anyway. If I'm going to be President, I would rather be President of Singapore. If only those damn buggers allow me to contest 
> 
> Loh K L


You would have my vote, KL, if those same buggers would let me vote, there.  :Very Happy:  Unfortunately, I don't think you would like the job that much.

Starting a club is easier than you think. Keeping it going (as recently happened with BAKA) is another matter. It is a matter of getting an organization that works and then keeping it on track -- all that is really very little work.

We had the new officer each year be the treasurer. That way, even a newby was forced to get to know all the members as dues, auction results, etc. were tabulated.

Each officer (except a permanent recording sec.) was then promoted annually. Treas. went to VP (who organized meetings and auctions), and VP became Pres. (who's only real function was to preside at meetings and appoint committees). The Pres. became Chairperson (past-president, who advised the pres and presided over board meetings when he chose to call them).

The gradual accumulation of experience meant the functions were well served. The permanent (more-or-less) Secretary provided glue to keep knowledge of past actions before the board and guidance to the current pres. as to what works and what doesn't. [KL would be great at this job!]

Only one new officer needed to be found each year by the nominating committee (unless others were required to withdraw).

It really is that simple, and has been proven to work. I don't see any reason cultural differences cannot be accomodated. Certainly the hobbyists of basically Sociocratic Europe and almost-Libertarian US have no trouble overcoming their deep sociological differences.  :Very Happy: 

I think we have to recognize that the very reasons that killies aren't a big commercial success is why we need to provide some underpinnings that the commercial world easily provides to commodity fish, like chicklets tetras and livebearers. Local and national clubs have been the solution in Europe and in N. America. There are just too many fun species, and too many diverse motivations (specializations) for the commercial shops to provide the kind of support that a succesful hobby needs to flourish.

I love to argue, and KL makes it soooo easy!  :Wink: 

Wright[/i]

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## imported_lily

> Folks, there were 2 person that had tentatively agreed to take pictures of the event. One had recently acquired an AC adaptor for the digital camera so "he could shoot all day" whilst the other volunteer... well... she forgot to bring the camera.


Hi all,

Before the gathering, I promised to shoot pictures but somehow, after charging all batteries, I forgot to place them in my bag. Well, my only explanation is.. Age is catching up real fast for me now, I am old.  :Crying:  By the time I returned with the camera, there were not many people left so I did not capture anything, sorry about that.

I think the reason why not many people turned up during this gathering is because there was nothing unusual to offer, unlike the first time where many turned up hoping to buy some special aquatic plants, or perhaps I may be wrong.  :Wink:

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## RonWill

Kwek Leong and Wright,
Time and again, the both of you make me feel like I'm torn between two lovers. Both are equally sound in mindset and I cannot argue with logic.

I was chatting with a committee member from the Betta Club and apparently, with about 5 shows yearly, including one IBC sanctioned show and National show, it's a real drainer. We need those few good men (and women), people who are do-ers and not talkers. These are far and few in between.

It is also undeniable that regardless whether one is a kitchen or corridor breeder, the resources and time needed to cater beyond oneself cannot be measured by the dollar. The heart hears a calling but the wallet feels another.

The setting up of a Killie Club isn't too complicated (on the surface) and revolves around a few individuals but to have it sustained, in accordance to local Society Laws, with the necessary administrative and financial accountability, even I too might be 'burnt out' by then.

Some of the folks here are present and former Betta/Guppy Club members and even though killies might not have reached their level of popularity, I would still like to hear their thoughts.

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## timebomb

> I love to argue, and KL makes it soooo easy!


And I should know better than to argue with you  :Smile: 

Let's lay off the topic for a while, Wright. We'll be flogging a dead horse if we keep on arguing over this. Jianyang and Ronnie are in the process of forming a group. Jianyang already has the logo created. A group will probably be the first step in the direction of forming a club. Who knows? Maybe we'll really form an official Killifish club one day but I'm not optimistic.

Loh K L

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## Piscesgirl

Not sure if this is relevant in any way, I had been intrigued by killifish but was put off by the impression that they were hard to keep in that only live foods could be given. Even when I finally bought mine, I was worried that they would die because live foods are something I will never feed (just not something I can do). My killies do fine on flake and frozen food. I think that killies would be more popular if it was emphasized that they are good fish for hobbyists that aren't specifically interested in breeding, good for not simply species tanks, and not that difficult to keep....I guess in a nutshell, I'm trying to say that it is possible that a good many hobbyists may be intimidated by killies.

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## timebomb

Deborah,

Your experience with Killifish is perfectly relevant to this thread. When I spoke of cultural differences, I also meant the differences in how Killifish are perceived locally as opposed to how hobbyists in the West see them.

Over here, Killies will never attain the same kind of value like other fish, the Luohans for instance. Luohans exchange hands for thousands of dollars. The main reason for such high prices is because certain commercial entities were driving up the prices. But they will never have that kind of success if the Luohans were as small as our Killies. Yes, size does matter. No one would pay high prices for a fish that is so small, no matter how beautiful and rare it is.

Many hobbyists here share your dislike of feeding live foods to the fish too. A guy wanted to buy my trio of _Austrolebias nigripinnis_ at the gathering. He was very keen and asked me many questions on how to keep the fish and breed them. But when I got to the part about live food, his eyes sort of glazed over and in the end, he didn't buy the fish. And I didn't even mention microworms or anything of that sort. I only said "feed the fish with Tubifex". Tubifex worms are so easily available here but yet so many hobbyists refuse to have anything to do with them. We're a squeamish bunch, I guess. Ronnie should know. He has a hard time getting people to take his microworm cultures even when he gives them away for free.

There's also this thing about collecting eggs and incubating them. Many hobbyists think this is too much work and they find the incubation period a big bother. I have friends who are into breeding fancy Guppies and I know a few folks who breed Bettas. The former goes through a lot of trouble making their own fish food for their beloved Guppies. The latter keeps so many jars at home I don't know how they find the time to change water. Yet these 2 group of hobbyists find Killies troublesome. It could be the main difference between them and us is that they are constantly trying to come up with a new strain or a hybrid. Although I'm against the idea of creating hybrids, the thought of creating one is exciting nonetheless. There's a Frankenstein lurking in all of us, I believe.

Having said all that, I wonder what draws us to Killies in the first place. Is it because they are so beautiful? Or is it because they are rare?

I don't know about you all but it's their amazing life cycles that fascinate me. I must have done it at least a hundred times but everytime I wet peat and see fry, I still get very excited. A couple of years ago, I gave a few bags of peat to my maid who went back to the Phillipines for a vacation. When she returned, she told me how excited her relatives were when they saw fry appearing from a bag of peat soaked in water. "How come got fish?", they asked repeatedly. They just couldn't understand how fish can appear from a bag of stuff that look like mud  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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## Piscesgirl

> There's also this thing about collecting eggs and incubating them. Many hobbyists think this is too much work and they find the incubation period a big bother.


I agree that is intimidating too! I think of trying to collect some eggs from my F. Walkeri to send to you guys in Singapore (if you want them), but the whole process seems alien to me  :Sad:  




> I don't know about you all but it's their amazing life cycles that fascinate me. I must have done it at least a hundred times but everytime I wet peat and see fry, I still get very excited. A couple of years ago, I gave a few bags of peat to my maid who went back to the Phillipines for a vacation. When she returned, she told me how excited her relatives were when they saw fry appearing from a bag of peat soaked in water. "How come got fish?", they asked repeatedly. They just couldn't understand how fish can appear from a bag of stuff that look like mud


I admit, that concept is fascinating to me too. Isn't mother nature grand?  :Smile:  


Bigger is better tends to be the think in the U.S. too -- especially when it comes to big trucks and SUVs. In my area they are useful, but I don't think everyone that is driving them truly 'needs' them. Haven't they heard the phrase "good things come in small packages"?  :Laughing:

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## joteo

Thought I'd emerge from my lurker mode and offer my two cents worth.  :Wink: 

I chanced upon this forum because I was searching for information about planted tanks.

I was surprised to find a forum full of Singaporeans with one interest - killie fish - a fish that, I, a fish newbie, had never ever heard of.

Little did I know that I'd find so many friendly people who offered me so many things (fish, plants, sand, hints, help) for absolutely nothing, except profuse thanks.

I know that Kwek Leong has tried to get me interested in Killies.

Kwek Leong gave me killie eggs and I got them hatched. And I was most fascinated by these eggs that could go through dry incubation and hatch later upon wetting.

I have enjoyed every hatching that has occured since. And since my father had bettas, feeding them wasn't too difficult - brine shrimp and tubifex were readily available.

But I'm primarily a guppy person and fish flakes and powder are their diet.

Killies sniff at such food.

(For a person who is very busy, live food can be hard to handle.)

Guppies swim to me when I go toward them.

Killie fish hide away or jump around in fright. They remind me of the discus my father used to breed - you could give them a heart attack just by looking at them.

Even today, I have to creep up toward the killies. I put a betta tank in front of their tank, and look at them through the betta tank.

My guppies, even for albinos, seem hardy.

I've killed so many killlies I've lost count.

The guppies just drop their babies and they live with their parents if I forget to separate them.

The killie egg pickings have been slim and most have fungused up. (but now, I'm going to try and just leave the eggs in the mop.)

For me, the killie fish is hard to keep. They are pretty, but they don't like to come out and show how pretty they are.

Then there are these names. Maybe, I'll step on some toes here, but sometimes I just want a fish to be just called Killifish and just enjoy them.

Now, there's this issue with the photos. And I guess I'm one of the people that Jianyang saw taking photos. But I am truly the dope behind the camera and I don't have a proper macro lens, so I can't capture the whole body of the fish.

If you like out of focus pictures (only five or six), you can look here:

http://photobucket.com/albums/y107/j...e%20Gathering/

Sorry, I forgot to take pictures of people at the gathering.

And here are pictures of my very first batch of fry that I picked the eggs of and hatched successfully.
http://photobucket.com/albums/y107/j...a%20batch%201/

What type are they? I don't know the details. I only refer to them as Lokoja. I know I can't mix them with other fish. (The original pair was from Ronnie.) And I know if I need the full name, I can always ask Ronnie  :Very Happy: 

Joanne

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## stormhawk

Joanne, you'd be surprised. One of the fellas here on the forum managed to wean his gardneri "Lafia" onto pellets.

Andrew or a, if you would, let her know your methods. I know they're greedy fellas but you have a knack at making them take up prepared foods.  :Wink: 

For Simps and Nothos they are not as easily weaned onto prepared foods. They live very short lives and require as much nutrition in the form of live foods to survive and spawn.

Guppies are almost always greedy little fellas and I can attest to that, after keeping the "drain" guppies.  :Laughing:  But yes, killies are a whole lot different in comparison to their live-bearing counterparts.

Did you know that they're both part of the same order aka Cyprinodontiformes? The only difference is that guppies are livebearers and killies are not.

Shyness is one thing but getting them out into the open is quite easy for myself at least. The key element is to make them feel secure in their new surroundings. Once they feel secure they will not attempt to hide all the time. My fulminantis males very very flashy fish and will not attempt to hide when I approach their tanks. So are my Rivulus cylindraceus males, which actually approach the front of their tank when they see a turkey baster's tip appear from the feeding "hole" at the side.  :Laughing: 

About the pictures, they're pretty nice for someone who regards herself as a "dope behind the camera". They were nicely shot, even if they were out of focus.  :Wink:

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## Yong Foo

Hi Everyone,

Just registered in and this is my first posting.
First of all, this is really a great site with good information on moss and Killies, and many thanks to Mr Loh for passing the lovely downoi to me a few months back, though recently it got stunted.

I have decided to post in after reading on why Killies did not really takes off in Singapore. Just my opinion to provide an insight of fish and moss lover(me). Im not into Killies yet.


1.Could be a misconception that Killies can only last for only 1 year for those annual species (me too not very sure on this). They need live food to breed or to show their true colours.

2.The name/label of the Killies is a big turn off to me. Its just too technical I think and not appealing to the general public, also sounds like a concern if we accidentally cross bred we are going to upset the pure strain. 

3.Pricing though not cheap for such a small fish, but moss lovers you guys also spent lots on new moss right? Me too. So I dont think price is an issue here, especially on this beautiful Killies fish. Fish keeping is addictive. 

4.For me, I would like to have the Killies, but no intention to breed them. Just too much work to cultivate live food for them.

Killies is a good additional to a greenery planted tank. . I think to get it kicks off advertising is still important. If people always see a nice fish in a good planted tank, even if they dont buy it, they will become more aware of such beautiful fishes.
Suggest local breeders/hobbyists can distribute some to those popular fish shop with good planted tank(of course they must put them into their planted tank) to promote the awareness, sort of a spread through word of mouth marketing strategy.

Also totally agreed on Deborahs view.
Sorry for the lengthy posting.


Regards
Yong Foo

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## turaco

Yong Foo,

Welcome to the forum! I like your killi-in-a-planted tank advertising idea. Killies always show their best in a planted tank. All my spare & retired killies goes into my planted tank. Am always amazed at how beautiful they are as compare to a breeding tank. If one just want to enjoy their beauty without breeding them, their enjoyment won't last too long I guess. Also, feeding of live food in planted tank is a big no to most planters. Most just can't cater to the fish needs before long, they perish.

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## hwchoy

> About the pictures, they're pretty nice for someone who regards herself as a "dope behind the camera". They were nicely shot, even if they were out of focus.


you know what? I'm going to have to recruit her for my photo-mad gang  :Cool:   :Cool:   :Cool:

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## timebomb

Yong Foo,

Having Killies in planted tanks is a great idea. In fact, it's always something I try to do. Fish, no matter how beautiful they may be, becomes boring after a while if they are kept in a bare tank. Plants not only bring out the colours, they also make the fish feel secure. Joanne, that's one reason your Killies are so shy. The other reason is you're overcrowding them. The last time I saw the _Aphyosemion australes_ in your house, the tank you were keeping them in was too small.

Most Killies are not shy but some are so timid, they hide all the time. I suspect the reason they are timid is because they don't have safety in numbers. If we are able to raise many of them and keep them altogether in one tank, the shyness disappears. 

Killie names are long and complex. When I first started, my reaction on seeing the name "_Fundulopanchax gardneri_ N'sukka" was "Good Grief, what on earth kind of a name is that? And how do you pronounce such a name?" But after a while, you get the hang of it. I still have problems pronouncing _Simpsonichthys_ but I always cheat and simply say "_Simp_." But don't let the latin names scare you; we use them for a good reason.

Live food isn't a big problem. Tubifex is easily available. If you're squeamish, baby or adult brine shrimps are good alternatives. It can be a big bother hatching the brine shrimp eggs but you can hatch a batch out every few days and keep the excess in your refrigerator. Daphnia is also a good source of live food if you can find them on sale at your local fish shop. The advantage of feeding brine shrimps and Daphnia is that all your fish get to eat some of it. If you feed dry food or worms to your fish, chances are the big fishes swipe the whole lot and the small ones go hungry.

Crossing Killies is considered a sin by some folks. But don't let that bother you too much. No one has the right to tell you what fish you should or should not keep. We discourage hybridisation but I've always maintain that we shouldn't condemn those who want to experiment with their Killies. Just don't spread the eggs or fish around as we don't want hybrids contaminating the Killie scene. If you keep different species of Killies in your planted tank and they hybridise, it's not a big deal. You are free to do what you like in your own backyard as long as the hybrids don't get circulated around.

The life spans for Annual Killies are about a year or so. But I have one male _Nothobranchius guentheri_ that is more than 2 years old. Life spans depend on many factors. In the wild, they rarely live for longer than a year as the ponds in which they live dry up completely. But in our tanks, if we shower them with tender loving care, they can live much longer. In any case, life spans are relative. A Mayfly lives for only a day whereas a tortoise can live for more than a hundred years. I've always thought of my Killies to be like Achilles, the character from Greek mythology who when given the option, chose to live a "short and glorious life" instead of a "long and boring one". Some Killies have short lives but their colours are glorious. The other thing about short-life Killies, is that they breed easily and lay thousands of eggs before they die. So from a pair, you get hundreds, if not thousands. I've been in the hobby for a long time and I can tell you there's no greater satisfaction than to have a nice planted tank filled with Killies that you raise yourself. In my cube tank now, I have about 25 _Simpsonichthys fulminantis_ and they are all raised from eggs given to me by Selena. The joy of seeing something exotic in your tank cannot be described by mere words. I'm not only delighted but I'm also proud to have fish in my tank that even the fish shops or farms do not have. 

Joanne was right when she wrote that I tried to get her interested in Killies. I always try to get them interested with every hobbyist I meet but the truth is, with girls, I try harder  :Laughing:  The local aquaria scene is such that there are so few women that whenever I meet one, I'll try my best to get her hooked. Girls are less fickle than guys. Some guys who were once so passionate about Killies didn't even turn up for the gathering. I wonder sometimes if their passion was real in the first place. Whereas the few women whom I've recruited into the hobby still keep Killies and I have to say I was very glad when 3 of them showed up at the gathering. It's always more fun with women around. Right, guys?  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

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## hwchoy

KL, get the girls, the guys will follow.  :Wink: 


and killi names aren't strange and complex, they have meanings  :Smile:  wait till you see chinese scientific names.

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## stormhawk

Err.. add the Chinese trade names to that list of confusion.  :Laughing:

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## hwchoy

it is actually kind of interesting if you read both latin and mandarin, as the chinese scientific names are semantic translation of the latin names. it kind of helps understanding the meaning of the latin names.

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