# Other Aquarium Forums > Fish Care, Nutrition and Water Management >  Fish dying and I am clueless what to do next

## Cyberkinetic

Hi, I have a 10G tank which I left neglected for months. http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...t=cyberkinetic

It was overgrown with all sorts of algae but fish/shrimps(malayan) continues to thrive for quite a while(platies kept breeding). However then the nightmare started when the fish starts to die off one at a time... and shrimps disappearing as well. 

Eventually I was left with a small bunch of rummynose tetras and all the other shrimps and platies died. That got me to finally do something about it but the plants are beyond salvage as the algae practically swarmed the whole tank.

I had to just blindly snip away with the scissors and pull off the plants in bunches. eventually emptied the tank of all plants and scrubbed the tank walls clean. I also used the vacuum substrate cleaner to try and clean the base. However although I managed to remove most of the plants, there's still a lot of roots which I had no way to remove so they are still stuck there. I then put in some new root ferts and replanted as much plants as I can to fill up the void from those which i removed. I also managed to clean up the canister filter, replacing the fine filter wool, cleaning the coarse filter wool and swooshing the media in fish tank water. 

However the plants all withered and melted away and in the midst and algae was also coming back with a vengence. I bought some new platies, otos, malayan shrimps.. instant death within a day... all platies dying with a white layer on their bodies... I felt like a murderer putting them in.  :Sad: 

This was despite daily 10-15% water changes(with Seachem Safe) and also addition of Seachem Stability ever since I did the tank clean up about a week earlier. 

This happened earlier in the year and I decided to stop getting livestock and just replaced the plants with hornswort and some stem plants on a metal mesh. Just dumped the plants into the tank and didn't bother planting them.. just to have them suck up the excess nutrients in the tank. They flourished actually and I had done 2 trimmings to remove inches of growth on the hornswort. The stem plants also grew new leaflets. 

Then I thought maybe i can add new livestock but last week, I got 4 otos, and 2 days later, all died again.  :Crying:  Now I am a serial killer....

I finally got my API test kit out and tested the water parameters... PH was acidic, the lowest on the range of the test kit(yellowish), Ammonia was showing either a zero or just a shade above, Nitrite was zero for sure(light blue) and Nitrate (Orangey red) which is possibly the highest on the scale. KH and GH seems to be lowest as well(since there's no changes from the first drop onwards). Subsequent tests throughout the last 2 weeks shows similar results except maybe a lighter shade for the Nitrate reading, but still it's always a orangey/red. I wonder if a 10-15% water change daily too little. But I've been consistently doing that for a month... surely the water condition would have improved by now? 

All these while, my rummynose tetras was unaffected. In fact I had bought a few additional rummynose together with the platies/otos and they are still around, bright red head and active during feeding till this day.

After about 3 weeks since I bought the hornswort and stem plants, the hornswort are still doing fine, but the stem plants are turning brownish along the edges. 

Since getting the plants, I did daily Excel dose and Flourish(twice a week). Water changes is still 10-15% daily and added Stability(supposed to do for 7 days, but i just kept adding daily).

I opened up the canister filter and it's not too dirty as well...definitely nowhere near the condition when i clean it up during the major cleanup. 

From history, the PH was almost always acidic in my tank and I had tested several times where the ammonia was higher and my fish are ok... so not sure if it's the cause of death for the fish this time. The stem plants which was growing for a few weeks started turning brown, so I'm not sure if it's a lack of nutrients or what? The hornswort still grows very well though. 

I had some leftover De-Nitrate and Matrix, probably 300-400 grams.. just under 2 bottles, I just dumped everything into the tank on the substrate... hopefully they can house more bacteria in the tank... although i think for a 10G tank running a Eheim 2224 with 8 rummynose and covered with hornswort... it should be ok?

I thought of putting some coral chips to buffer the acidity but knowing that my rummynose are doing fine now, I'm also hesitating if it might harm them as well and I will end up with nothing in the end... so it's like... "should I or should I not?"

Another observation is that since the second time of adding new plants(hornswort) I have no algae problem already. The tank walls are relatively clean and free from algae and none on my plants as well.

Any suggestions or advice? Much appreciated. Just wondering if I am better off getting a new tank and starting fresh. Just throw away everything, soil/sand/media etc.. Control-Alt-Delete. Feeling very defeated.... hiaz...

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## sthh

Sorry for your losses.
Saw your thread when you first started the tank till now, it's been more than 1 year. 
When your tank is established over a period of time, and then you encounter massive die off, there will be a few questions that will need answering.

1. PH value: what is your PH? You mentioned the lowest indicator on your API PH measurement. 
Established planted tank can usually experienced a PH crash when your water becomes more and more acidic over time. Did you notice any white slime or mucus on your fishes skin? If you do, your fishes could be swimming in acid.
An immediate remedy in that case will be to add some baking soda to bring up your PH, and then coral chips for long term PH buffering. Try to bring your buffer PH to 6 or higher gradually if you still have any living creatures. A suddenly PH change will also be quite deadly. There is really no need to do anything with the plants.

2. Since you have started yanking out your plants, you will literally disturb the substrate. That can actually bring on a nitrate and ammonia spike, which could be deadly as well. But since you have already done that, you will really need to change most of your water, until the test reading for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is at the acceptable range. 
I really do not recommend the use of any chemical to do the job, because they do more harm than good.
What's your last ammonia, nitrite and nitrate reading?

3. There are already established colony of beneficial bacteria in your substrate, and in your filter media. You do not really need to start from scratch. 
I doubt your algae is an issue with your fish massive die off, unless you have those algae blooms that depletes oxygen. If that is the case, you will need more surface agitation, or you can add an airstone to help.

If you start again, just get some root tab fertilisers and put it into your substrate, and start your planting again. When the test reading are stable and acceptable, then you introduce some hardy fauna.

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## Cyberkinetic

Thanks for your reply!

1. Regarding the PH value, i cant be really sure since it is showing the lowest colour on the reference table and it mentioned even if the PH is lower, it will just stay as that.. seems lower than 6 i suspect. Those platies that died overnight were indeed covered in a layer of whitish substance which is slimy too.. had a hard time picking them up using the tongs. I considered the baking soda and coral chips combi, but hesitating as my rummynose tetras are doing fine. Im worried that with my tinkering, ill endanger them as well with the PH swings.. i read that they prefer slightly acidic water but i think 6 or less is not "slightly" anymore..but still, its a fact that they are doing fine...

2. Its been more than a month since i started the daily 10-15% water change and probably more than 2 months since i did the major overhaul of the tank... i wouldve thought the tank water should be quite decent by now. I was concerned with bigger volume water changes causing distress to my rummynose.. so i decided on small but frequent daily water changes instead. The latest test on water parameters shows PH at 6 or less, ammonia is 0 or max 0.25ppm （colour is in between）, nitrite is a distinct 0, and nitrate between 80-160ppm（hard to read the colour tint to be honest.. ）

3. Since the overhaul, id replaced the airstone with a internal bubble filter, those cheap transparent box type and filled it with Seachem Matrix ... used a little more than a bottle, probably 300+ ml worth of media. The Eheim filter had 1L of Substratpro and i added 500ml of matrix by replacing some of the tube-like mechanical filtering media. Seems a decent amount of media for a small tank i would think...
The root tab fertilizers were added right after i did the overhaul actually.. so it should be good to go for replanting. But fearing another massive cleanup, i just left the hornswort as they were for now... i didnt replant the stem plants as well..just kept them on the mesh still..can see roots growing already though, but keaves all browning... :Sad: 

Under pressure from the missus who thinks im spending too much time fish tank gazing instead of with my boys.. sigh...

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## tetrakid

Before undertaking any other chemical measure, did you try and improve the overall aeration of the tank? The most important single factor contributing to a healthy fish tank is good oxygenation. A well aerated tank works wonders in improving the well-being of all living organisms (BB), fauna and flora. But good aeration does not equate with water movement (currents) alone. Too much current causes a stressful environment to fish. Good aeration works wonders for tank health.

Aeration is best achieved by good surface agitation. A good and simple way is to use a tiny air pump attached to an air tubing without an air stone. Suspend the tubing such that the air bubbles exit at one side of the tank and about halfway down from the water surface. In this way, when the bubbles reach the water surface, the pushing action of the bubbles will cause the surface agitation to spread across the whole water surface of the tank. Placing the tubing at the side of the tank also makes it unobtrusive. The important thing is to ensure that the water at the surface moves laterally across the whole water surface. This method alone can work magic to the livestock and plants in the tank, greatly improving its whole environment. Do not underestimate this simple measure.
Hope this helps.

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## sthh

I am using the Sera PH test kit, because it can read ph from a 4.5 to 9 range. API only reads up to 6.
When you experienced a PH crash, your water PH is probably below 4.5, probably as acidic as vinegar. Your fish will definitely be cooked by the acid, which strips off the protective slime from their body, explaining why you see a white slime from those dead or dying fish.
There is no buffering capacity in your tank. You need to put some corals or calcium carbonate to provide buffering capacity to your tank. 
I suggest you read up on PH crash, and also read up about old tank syndrome, which will explain why all your newly added fishes die immediately, whereas the old ones are still alive.

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## Cyberkinetic

Hi Tetrakid,

I do have a bubble filter that I placed at the corner of the tank. The bubbling that surfaces does spread across the surface of the water. In fact it is a little messy as the bubbles burst and spreads water all over my lighting, fan and table top. Sort of fixed it by placing plastic cling wrap to cover the frontal part of the tank. Not really to fix the water splash, but because my 2 yr old kept trying to put his fingers into the tank.  :Wink: 

I used to use an airstone only but I realize that the air seems to be coming out lesser and lesser, probably clogged. Thus decided on the corner bubble filter since i can use it to add more media to the tank as well. 




> Before undertaking any other chemical measure, did you try and improve the overall aeration of the tank? The most important single factor contributing to a healthy fish tank is good oxygenation. A well aerated tank works wonders in improving the well-being of all living organisms (BB), fauna and flora. But good aeration does not equate with water movement (currents) alone. Too much current causes a stressful environment to fish. Good aeration works wonders for tank health.
> 
> Aeration is best achieved by good surface agitation. A good and simple way is to use a tiny air pump attached to an air tubing without an air stone. Suspend the tubing such that the air bubbles exit at one side of the tank and about halfway down from the water surface. In this way, when the bubbles reach the water surface, the pushing action of the bubbles will cause the surface agitation to spread across the whole water surface of the tank. Placing the tubing at the side of the tank also makes it unobtrusive. The important thing is to ensure that the water at the surface moves laterally across the whole water surface. This method alone can work magic to the livestock and plants in the tank, greatly improving its whole environment. Do not underestimate this simple measure.
> Hope this helps.

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## Cyberkinetic

Thanks sthh,

I'll try to get the Sera PH test kit to try then. 

I did some readup on old tank syndrome, I think it's spot on what happened to me! Thanks for sharing that. 

I dropped 50grams of coral chips in a mesh bag into the tank, just a small handful, planned to do it slowly and gradually as the last thing I want is to kill my existing rummynose. Probably get a new PH test kit before I add anymore. 

What I don't understand is even if I started off with really bad water, with daily 10-15% water changes for a month should have cleaned it up substantially. The following is what I had taken of my water test a few days ago, I tested it again yesterday night and the results are still similar. Probably the ammonia is a little more yellowish(lower) that's all. 







> I am using the Sera PH test kit, because it can read ph from a 4.5 to 9 range. API only reads up to 6.
> When you experienced a PH crash, your water PH is probably below 4.5, probably as acidic as vinegar. Your fish will definitely be cooked by the acid, which strips off the protective slime from their body, explaining why you see a white slime from those dead or dying fish.
> There is no buffering capacity in your tank. You need to put some corals or calcium carbonate to provide buffering capacity to your tank. 
> I suggest you read up on PH crash, and also read up about old tank syndrome, which will explain why all your newly added fishes die immediately, whereas the old ones are still alive.

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## sthh

Good to know that you have identified the problem. 
There is a rather good article that describe what happens in an old tank syndrome:

http://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html

There should be some form of buffering in my tank, either coral chips, oyster shell or others.
Noticed that your nitrate level is off the scale. 
10-15% water change is useful for daily task.
Weekly task could include a 80% water change (Do that when your parameters are stable, and when your fishes are used to it)
Monthly task could be siphoning your substrate, and replacing or washing choked up mechanical filter medium (Usually those disposable white wool that traps debris and dirt) and rinsing your biofilter (usually ceramic rings or japanese mat)

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## Cyberkinetic

Thanks.. read that article..  :Smile:  

I am rather confused on the nitrate values as well... it just doesn't seems to come down at all even after a month of diligent WC. Can't wait to check on the PH value later tonight. I'm planning to increase the daily water change to about 20% but will first monitor the PH level after the coral chips addition. One parameter at a time... I think I don't want to rush and get things all messed up again. 

Thanks for the suggestions. Appreciate it!






> Good to know that you have identified the problem. 
> There is a rather good article that describe what happens in an old tank syndrome:
> 
> http://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html
> 
> There should be some form of buffering in my tank, either coral chips, oyster shell or others.
> Noticed that your nitrate level is off the scale. 
> 10-15% water change is useful for daily task.
> Weekly task could include a 80% water change (Do that when your parameters are stable, and when your fishes are used to it)
> Monthly task could be siphoning your substrate, and replacing or washing choked up mechanical filter medium (Usually those disposable white wool that traps debris and dirt) and rinsing your biofilter (usually ceramic rings or japanese mat)

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## tetrakid

> Hi Tetrakid,
> 
> I do have a bubble filter that I placed at the corner of the tank. The bubbling that surfaces does spread across the surface of the water. In fact it is a little messy as the bubbles burst and spreads water all over my lighting, fan and table top. Sort of fixed it by placing plastic cling wrap to cover the frontal part of the tank. Not really to fix the water splash, but because my 2 yr old kept trying to put his fingers into the tank. 
> 
> I used to use an airstone only but I realize that the air seems to be coming out lesser and lesser, probably clogged. Thus decided on the corner bubble filter since i can use it to add more media to the tank as well.


I know the problem, and that was why I said use only a _tiny air pump_. You must get the smallest air pump, or use a metal air valve to control the air output. The purpose is soley to create an _ongoing and effective surface agitation_. Filtration is secondary to oxygenation - because even without dirt filtration, your fish can live well. Many canister users also do not pay much attention to this aeration aspect, resulting in degradation of the BB inside their canisters. Water flowing to and back from a big canister may not necessarily provide good aeration, especially if the outflow is simply directed back to the tank water and not at the surface to create _good_ surface agitation. Whenever you have problems with your tank or fish, the first thing you should do before doing a dozen other cures is to oxygenate the water well for one or two days and observe the overall improvement. You can bet that nine times out of ten there will be a marvelous change (improvement) to all life within the tank.

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## Cyberkinetic

Hi Tetrakid, I’m still running the air pump just that instead of airstone, the bubbles goes through a simple box type bubble filter.. so i think it should still be providing aeration to the tank.

I just checked the PH ... still off the chart acidic but i’ve not managed to get another ph test kit yet. Likely the 50grams of coral chips too little. I added another 50 grams and did my usual 15% water change.. gonna test again tomorrow. Noticed my stem plants sprouting new leaves but the browning generally is increasing... 

Got a shock too as i noticed the red on my rummynose head portion were very light when i first look at them when i was home.. but it sort of returned after a while.. for a moment i thought they were in trouble.. fingers crossed...




> I know the problem, and that was why I said use only a _tiny air pump_. You must get the smallest air pump, or use a metal air valve to control the air output. The purpose is soley to create an _ongoing and effective surface agitation_. Filtration is secondary to oxygenation - because even without dirt filtration, your fish can live well. Many canister users also do not pay much attention to this aeration aspect, resulting in degradation of the BB inside their canisters. Water flowing to and back from a big canister may not necessarily provide good aeration, especially if the outflow is simply directed back to the tank water and not at the surface to create _good_ surface agitation. Whenever you have problems with your tank or fish, the first thing you should do before doing a dozen other cures is to oxygenate the water well for one or two days and observe the overall improvement. You can bet that nine times out of ten there will be a marvelous change (improvement) to all life within the tank.

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## tetrakid

> Hi Tetrakid, I’m still running the air pump just that instead of airstone, the bubbles goes through a simple box type bubble filter.. so i think it should still be providing aeration to the tank....


For max effect, you should be able to see the active and continuous dancing ripples on the surface of the tank.

I must repeat that oxygenation is the single most important factor in fish-keeping, though there will be many who will argue that this is not so and will insist on trying a dozen chemical cures to treat a sick tank.

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## greenie

> For max effect, you should be able to see the active and continuous dancing ripples on the surface of the tank.
> 
> I must repeat that oxygenation is the single most important factor in fish-keeping, though there will be many who will argue that this is not so and will insist on trying a dozen chemical cures to treat a sick tank.


I also agree with tetrakid. I had almost similar experience as you. Use an airstone instead. Your overall tank will be oxygenated throughly. And the BB in your filter will start helping you remove those ammonia and nitrate. I keep my tank pH at 5.5 and none of my fish died. So spend less on the pH control but remember to provide gradual pH swings during water change as you are using some pH reducing substrate.

Before I use an airstone exclusively the whole night, my tank water contains tiny debris floating all over and water is slight hazy. After some 4 airstones and 2 pumps for circulation, water became crystal clear, though it takes a week or two. I saw your tank and would gladly tear out all the plants and keep just fast growing creepers like glosso for the time being and provide proper circulation throughout tank.

So just concentrate on wc, water circulation and aeration. Deal with algae later.

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## tetrakid

> I also agree with tetrakid. I had almost similar experience as you. Use an airstone instead. Your overall tank will be oxygenated throughly. And the BB in your filter will start helping you remove those ammonia and nitrate. I keep my tank pH at 5.5 and none of my fish died. So spend less on the pH control but remember to provide gradual pH swings during water change as you are using some pH reducing substrate.
> 
> Before I use an airstone exclusively the whole night, my tank water contains tiny debris floating all over and water is slight hazy. After using an airstone, water became crystal clear, though it takes a week or two.


Yes, when well-oxygenated, ALL life in the tank will soon be restored to good health. That is the secret of healthy aqua-life.

In order not to stir up the debris and dirt at the tank bottom, it is important to make sure the air tubing does not reach the bottom. Placing it half-way down the tank is good (as mentioned in my original reply post). Air stone is good, but the push power is somewhat reduced and gentler, and that is why debris is not stirred even if you place it at the tank bottom. If without an air stone, the power for pushing the water sideways at the water surface (ie. the _water/atmosphere interface_) is strong, thus oxygenation is more efficient and all life in the tank will 'rejoice'. 

Cheers.

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## Cyberkinetic

Hi greenie,

thanks for your reply. 

The photo of the tank you saw is in the past already... think i will post a current picture tonight. I don't have it with me now. I have basically tore off everything and only have bunches of hornswort(which i just left them in the round holder that they come in when i bought them) and some stem plants(on a metal mesh). Basically just leaving them in the tank to suck up extra nutrients and clean up the water. 

I basically run the corner filter running 24x7 so the bubbling is throughout the day... after hearing from you and tetrakid, I'm thinking maybe to change it to another type of corner filter that comes with an air stone instead. Maybe also get a splitter and add another airstone separately as well. It's hard to control the airflow as I kept the water level pretty high about an inch off the top of the tank, so any bubbling will still splash onto the screen of the lighting unless I set the air flow to be really really weak but I think that would defeat the purpose for oxygenating the water though. 

Also I was talking about being relatively algae-free for a while since doing daily water change, but I realize last night that there's some algae starting to build up on the extra Seachem De-nitrate media which I dump on top of the substrate, it's starting to get a little brownish layer on the surface of the media. 

Other than the coral chips I added, I don't really plan to make other PH altering changes to the tank. Just keep with the water change and continue to monitor. Just to make sure my PH test kit is working, i tested with tap water and yes, it's close to neutral... so that confirms my water is definitely acidic and not a fluke. The improvement of the water quality is probably slow, I just can't believe with all the water change there's no improvement at all, although it is very frustrating not seeing observable improvements. 




> I also agree with tetrakid. I had almost similar experience as you. Use an airstone instead. Your overall tank will be oxygenated throughly. And the BB in your filter will start helping you remove those ammonia and nitrate. I keep my tank pH at 5.5 and none of my fish died. So spend less on the pH control but remember to provide gradual pH swings during water change as you are using some pH reducing substrate.
> 
> Before I use an airstone exclusively the whole night, my tank water contains tiny debris floating all over and water is slight hazy. After some 4 airstones and 2 pumps for circulation, water became crystal clear, though it takes a week or two. I saw your tank and would gladly tear out all the plants and keep just fast growing creepers like glosso for the time being and provide proper circulation throughout tank.
> 
> So just concentrate on wc, water circulation and aeration. Deal with algae later.

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## Cyberkinetic

Hi tetrakid,

i'm a little confused now... to use airstone or not to use airstone. Which is actually better?

Currently without airstone, I get big bubbles coming out from the corner filter... from your latest reply,that seems to be better than the smaller bubbles from the airstone which doesn't break the water surface as strongly. So having the corner filter(with water flowing through the mechanical-floss and biological-seachem matrix filters inside it) with the big bubbles should be better than a simple airstone? 




> Yes, when well-oxygenated, ALL life in the tank will soon be restored to good health. That is the secret of healthy aqua-life.
> 
> In order not to stir up the debris and dirt at the tank bottom, it is important to make sure the air tubing does not reach the bottom. Placing it half-way down the tank is good (as mentioned in my original reply post). Air stone is good, but the push power is somewhat reduced and gentler, and that is why debris is not stirred even if you place it at the tank bottom. If without an air stone, the power for pushing the water sideways at the water surface (ie. the _water/atmosphere interface_) is strong, thus oxygenation is more efficient and all life in the tank will 'rejoice'. 
> 
> Cheers.

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## sthh

You have already arrested the PH crash issue, and now have coral chips to buffer your water. 
Take your own time to re-arrange your plants, add oxygen pump or bring up your water to optimal condition through gradual water changes, and bring down the nitrate level.
Try not to stress yourself out. Afterall, fishkeeping is supposed to be therapeutic. Have fun.

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## tetrakid

> Hi tetrakid,
> 
> i'm a little confused now... to use airstone or not to use airstone. Which is actually better?
> Currently without airstone, I get big bubbles coming out from the corner filter... from your latest reply,that seems to be better than the smaller bubbles from the airstone which doesn't break the water surface as strongly. So having the corner filter(with water flowing through the mechanical-floss and biological-seachem matrix filters inside it) with the big bubbles should be better than a simple airstone?


What you need to ensure is that the whole water surface is agitated well ('dancing' all the time) and vigorously when the bubbles rise to the surface. But at the same time, it should not cause strong currents deeper beneath the surface, as that will cause discomfort to the fish, and also stir up muck and dirt to cloud the water. Ideally, the lower portion of the tank should be still and without current, but only a gentle upward flow which mixes the oxygenated water in the whole tank. The trick lies in adjusting the height and intensity of the bubbling column. Only you can judge the overall effect, as each tank is different in layout. Whether you use an air stone or not is up to your preference.

In my case, I do not have any filter, so my setup is purely to create a rippling surface, which to me is the top priority.  :Smile:

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## greenie

I prefer airstone as the smaller bubbles increases greater surface area for the oxygen to dissolve in water. Surface agitation is secondary to oxygenate the tank I suppose as the air bubbles are the source of oxygen. The brown algae you mention is readily eaten by otos. Do introduce them as your clean up crew. Get two should be enough, increase if not improvement or ensure those algae is really brown algae. It could be just mum and gunk, siphon out if so.

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## Cyberkinetic

Currently my water surface is definitely not still... as the bubbles tend to travel a bit before bursting..so rippling effect is there too... 

The air outlet is around upper middle height of the tank so it doesn’t stir up much stuff.. the water outflow from the canister filter’s rainbar shoots towards the front of the tank, so there’s definitely a current going around.. but the water is very clear, hardly see any particles floating around... 




> What you need to ensure is that the whole water surface is agitated well ('dancing' all the time) and vigorously when the bubbles rise to the surface. But at the same time, it should not cause strong currents deeper beneath the surface, as that will cause discomfort to the fish, and also stir up muck and dirt to cloud the water. Ideally, the lower portion of the tank should be still and without current, but only a gentle upward flow which mixes the oxygenated water in the whole tank. The trick lies in adjusting the height and intensity of the bubbling column. Only you can judge the overall effect, as each tank is different in layout. Whether you use an air stone or not is up to your preference.
> 
> In my case, I do not have any filter, so my setup is purely to create a rippling surface, which to me is the top priority.

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## Cyberkinetic

Adding lifestock is a big taboo now... until i can see improvement in PH, not going to "kill" more fish for now... quite sure it’s algae cos it’s on the surface, can’t remove by siphon... 

Just got to be patient for now i suppose...




> I prefer airstone as the smaller bubbles increases greater surface area for the oxygen to dissolve in water. Surface agitation is secondary to oxygenate the tank I suppose as the air bubbles are the source of oxygen. The brown algae you mention is readily eaten by otos. Do introduce them as your clean up crew. Get two should be enough, increase if not improvement or ensure those algae is really brown algae. It could be just mum and gunk, siphon out if so.

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## tetrakid

> I prefer airstone as the smaller bubbles increases greater surface area for the oxygen to dissolve in water. Surface agitation is secondary to oxygenate the tank I suppose as the air bubbles are the source of oxygen. .....


Hi Greenie,

Your experience is highly beneficial to learn from. There can be no doubt that bubbles from an air stone are effective in oxygenating the water, especially when the air pump is powerful and the fine bubbles are a beauty to watch. I have used an air stone and love it for that reason.

But I found that it tends to gradually create a layer of muck at the water surface, which I do not like, as that will form an insulation between the water and atmosphere. I love to have a clean and healthy water surface with little or no surface tension, and that is why I go to great lengths to ensure that. I am sort of addicted to the idea of good surface agitation at all costs... lol... 
Cheers. :Smile:

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## tetrakid

> Currently my water surface is definitely not still... as the bubbles tend to travel a bit before bursting..so rippling effect is there too... 
> 
> The air outlet is around upper middle height of the tank so it doesn’t stir up much stuff.. the water outflow from the canister filter’s rainbar shoots towards the front of the tank, so there’s definitely a current going around.. but the water is very clear, hardly see any particles floating around...


If you adjust the rainbar so that the water is nicely pushing the water/air interface, that would be highly desirable from the point of view of oxygenation. May hobbyists do not bother about this much, and they simply let the return water go back to the tank. What is desirable is good oxygenation as opposed to sub-optimal or borderline. Of course many fish can tolerate low oxygen levels, but I'd prefer max oxygenation (saturated) for my fishes.

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## Cyberkinetic

It’s quite hard to do that as i turn on the fan together with my lights... everyday i lose quite a bit of water from evaporation... 
What i do is i top up water until just covering the rainbar... by the time i’m back at night, the water level would be lowered and i can see rippling on the water surface.. if i dun top up water by second day i’ll get splattering of water as the water level will be below the rainbar.

I just got the Sera PH test kit... almost fainted... PH is a distinct 5.0 on the colour table! I have a smaller 10L tank which i didn’t mention.. it’s housing several white cloud mountains... the PH is an astonishing 4.5!!!! I do water change of 20% on this daily as well... it’s crazy... yet the fish are looking good for close to a year..zero deaths.. fish are looking nice and grew significantly since i bought them..

It’s driving me nuts... 




> If you adjust the rainbar so that the water is nicely pushing the water/air interface, that would be highly desirable from the point of view of oxygenation. May hobbyists do not bother about this much, and they simply let the return water go back to the tank. What is desirable is good oxygenation as opposed to sub-optimal or borderline. Of course many fish can tolerate low oxygen levels, but I'd prefer max oxygenation (saturated) for my fishes.

----------


## felix_fx2

Yo... 

Your still trying to save your tank? Decom and reset... 

Maybe consider getting low tech plants since your work/family life may cause neglect to the tank.

P. S, how's work... ? 

Sent from GT-N7105 powered by Temasek CM11

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Haha.. trying my very best... but seems futile...

I think once i decomm... my wife won’t let me reset ... it’s decomm, sell or giveaway...  :Sad: 

I’m not picky about plants already.. just want to keep the fish alive... felt so bad i killed so many already.. i’m gonna give it another 2 weeks, still no improvements, maybe really surrender for good.

Work’s ok, could be better.. haha... hope you are doing fine yeah...








> Yo... 
> 
> Your still trying to save your tank? Decom and reset... 
> 
> Maybe consider getting low tech plants since your work/family life may cause neglect to the tank.
> 
> P. S, how's work... ? 
> 
> Sent from GT-N7105 powered by Temasek CM11

----------


## felix_fx2

Ok, do it like how I do my outside tanks... Decom and comm same day... 

But prepare upfront... And standby some livestock die.. 10~30% mortality... 

Sent from GT-N7105 powered by Temasek CM11

----------


## Cyberkinetic

I actually did a PH test right after i did 20% water change on both tanks... the PH went up by 0.5 on both tanks ... going to test again tonorrow..

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Plan plan first... :） you think really no hope? 




> Ok, do it like how I do my outside tanks... Decom and comm same day... 
> 
> But prepare upfront... And standby some livestock die.. 10~30% mortality... 
> 
> Sent from GT-N7105 powered by Temasek CM11

----------


## sthh

Take it easy, and try to enjoy the process. I am sure your tanks will all recover soon. Do try to bring down the nitrate. Super high nitrate will make your fish head stand, and have loads of health issue.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Not sure what else i can do... hehe..

PH this morning and now, showing 4.5... amazing .. it goes from 5 to 5.5 after last night’s water change and overnight down to 4.5

I’m wondering whether even with all those biological media i had, it might not be cycled with the bacteria colonies since such low PH probably killed them.

Reason for the low ammonia, nitrite are probably my frequent water changes..

Actually i’m also relooking into my situation.. why am i making myself so stressed up... if the current inhabitants are doing fine, i should just leave it..just have to accept no new lifestock until this generation passes on and i ctrl-alt-del on the tank. :） 





> Take it easy, and try to enjoy the process. I am sure your tanks will all recover soon. Do try to bring down the nitrate. Super high nitrate will make your fish head stand, and have loads of health issue.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

I missed my regular water change yesterday and did a PH test prior to changing it a while ago...
Interesting PH... i was expecting the low readings again but it actually gave a 5.5!
Strange... decided not to change water and test it again tomorrow...

----------


## Cyberkinetic

PH have maintained at 5.5 for the past 3 days... I changed the water nonetheless... 

However I noticed there's a lot of white particles that comes out from the mesh bag of coral chips when the water is disturbed during the change. I am assuming it is from the chemical reaction between the acidic water and the coral chips... 

It does go away after a short while, presumably all sucked into my canister filter and lodged inside the filter wool. 

Is this common? Wonder if it is better to put the coral chips into a small plastic container and just keep it in one corner. So as to keep all these particles contained in one place. I assume as long as the water is acidic, the chemical reaction should continue, although without putting the coral chips in a fast water flow area, it's probably slower to react and buffer the PH.

----------


## thebaldingaquarist

If it is really old tank syndrome and you have a sensitive wife like me. i recommend that you
1. get lots of hornworts and frogbits, fill up 1/2 the tank if you can
2. do daily water change of 10%
3. remove the coral chips.
4. after ammonia is zero, wash part of your media every 3 days until all your media is washed. this is to pseudo reset the media.

your objective is to get the water conditions right. if after 2 weeks you still have ammonia and acidic water, then its time to remove the substrate...

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Hi there,

thanks for your advice.

1) I have hornsworts, in a row, covering the length of the tank. Quite a fair bit. They were doing pretty well initially but I realized they are browning off recently... only the new shoots at the top are green. Frogbits I'm a little hesitant to get as I've a small tank, they might cover the light meant for the tank. Thus I have not gotten them yet.
2) I've done 10-15% water change for more than a month. I just switched to 20% in the last week. 
3) The coral chips are a new addition to buffer the PH from going too low... I had test results of PH 4.5 several times so I'm really worried about the low PH. Any reasons why I should remove the coral chips?
4) Let me test this tonight. I stopped testing for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate for a while... previously it was showing close to zero ammonia and nitrite, but nitrate is off the charts(even with the daily water change of 10-15%).

Somehow I get the feeling I can't avoid not playing around with the substrate soon. Sigh...




> If it is really old tank syndrome and you have a sensitive wife like me. i recommend that you
> 1. get lots of hornworts and frogbits, fill up 1/2 the tank if you can
> 2. do daily water change of 10%
> 3. remove the coral chips.
> 4. after ammonia is zero, wash part of your media every 3 days until all your media is washed. this is to pseudo reset the media.
> 
> your objective is to get the water conditions right. if after 2 weeks you still have ammonia and acidic water, then its time to remove the substrate...

----------


## sthh

Do not worry about the PH as long as it is stable. The coral chips will buffer your PH. Those white colour stuff are small breakaway pieces from the coral chips. Do not remove your coral chip as you may risk another PH crash which will kill lots of fishes again.

Most importantly, you need to bring down your nitrate level. It is way too high. Such high nitrate is very unhealthy for any fauna. Only way to do that is water change and more water change, less feeding.

----------


## thebaldingaquarist

for old tank syndrome affected tanks, the ecology and balance of the aquarium is skewered towards a small subset of bacterial processes. What i mean to say is in a balanced aquarium, some bacteria produces ammonia and acid, some other bacteria will take the ammonia and convert it to nitrates, some other bacteria takes the acid and makes precipitates out of other metal oxides and stuff. simply put, at the end of the day, the plants takes all of the end product, be it ammonium, nitrites or nitrates and all the rest of the nutrients to grow or respire or photosynthesize. 

in an old tank, this balance is thrown off course, be it too much, or too little of certain elements. 
the easiest solution is to reset the tank. 
the other option is to slowly back track. my recommendation in the above reply is to slowly backtrack.

start by slowly introducing a water column that is balanced and clear of as much dissolved solids as possible. we need to do this slowly as not to affect the fauna and flora that is existing in the tank. that is to say, if you do a 100% water change now, the fauna may end up in shock and not survive.. removal of elements in the water column will do 2 things.
1. recalibrate the substrate and media slowly by drawing out elements that throwing off the balanced set of bacterial processes
2. slowly adjusting the fauna and flora back to ideal state

then once the water state is stable, replace/clean parts of the aquarium that contain the bacterial processes in the tank. remember, to do it in parts for the same reason above. in an aquarium there are 3 places that contain bacteria colonies large enough to influence the water quality.
1. substrate / gravel
2. filter media
3. all other tank surfaces.

I recommended to start with the media. if it does not help, then its time to reset the substrate. number 3 is normally way smaller in ratio compared to the first 2.

Why did i recommend to remove the chips? its because of the principle above, i am aiming to remove as much elements from the water as possible, slowly. if the flora is surviving in the tank with high nitrates and low PH, adding chips now will help buffer the PH from flying up and down, in that aspect i agree with what bro sthh mentioned. 


the keyword here is slowly. all the above have to be done in increments and slowly, which requires mountains of patience.

last note.. hornworts take in both CO2 and carbonates as its carbon source (iirc). so having large amounts of hornworts might just absorb the carbonates meant to increase the KH.

and also, take my recommendation above with a pinch of salt. its a slow process. one that requires work every day.

Of course, the best course of action if its me, is to treat my wife to a nice dinner and tell her i need to reset the tank.

PS. i typed this response 3 times. first 2 times, the browser hung. so this third time i skipped alot of details.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Finally managed to upload a photo of the current tank:


Found one alien creature while I was gazing at the Seachem De-nitrate I laid at the front of the tank... it's white and almost went unseen...hidden among the De-nitrate media... 

Anyone knows what is it? Think i am gonna kill it with my long tongs... not taking chances. It's not moved for the past 2 hours... probably because the rummynose are super active after I turned on the lights and did my water change. 

Tank PH is 5.5PH but after 20% water change, it goes up to 6. At least it's consistently 5.5 for the past couple of days prior to water change. 

My plants which started turning brown have begun sprouting new green shoots again the past few days. I wonder if it's the first of more good things to happen. Only things to have changed recently are the addition of the coral chips, 50grams at a time/day, standing at 200grams in total now as well as increasing water change from 10-15% daily up to 20% daily. 

Everything else remained constant though.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

PH quite stable. I'll probably keep the coral chips since them seemed to work in bringing the PH up. Not keen to increase anymore though... will monitor for a while to come.

I must admit i did not test for the nitrate for a while, it's really troublesome to keep shaking the test tube and the test chemical... I really like the Sera PH test kit, big test tube, easy to hold and wash. The API test tubes are small and hard to handle with my fat fingers.

Will test the nitrate tomorrow.




> Do not worry about the PH as long as it is stable. The coral chips will buffer your PH. Those white colour stuff are small breakaway pieces from the coral chips. Do not remove your coral chip as you may risk another PH crash which will kill lots of fishes again.
> 
> Most importantly, you need to bring down your nitrate level. It is way too high. Such high nitrate is very unhealthy for any fauna. Only way to do that is water change and more water change, less feeding.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Thanks for retyping 3 times! Appreciate your help!

I have been doing regular water changes for more than 1.5 months... 10-15% daily until the past week or so when I bump it up to 20% daily. Not sure if it's the coral chips or the 5% increase in daily water change,but seems my PH increased to 5.5 and remaining quite constant for the past few days.

I've changed the filter wool in my canister filter and rinsed the media in old tank water I think 2-3weeks back? So far, have not gone to touch it again. 

Told my wife about the "reset" quite a while ago... reaction wasn't good.. maybe i didn't do it over a nice dinner... "reset" in her definition means everything dump into the rubbish chute. Think she can't wait to have me get rid of the tanks.. haha...




> for old tank syndrome affected tanks, the ecology and balance of the aquarium is skewered towards a small subset of bacterial processes. What i mean to say is in a balanced aquarium, some bacteria produces ammonia and acid, some other bacteria will take the ammonia and convert it to nitrates, some other bacteria takes the acid and makes precipitates out of other metal oxides and stuff. simply put, at the end of the day, the plants takes all of the end product, be it ammonium, nitrites or nitrates and all the rest of the nutrients to grow or respire or photosynthesize. 
> 
> in an old tank, this balance is thrown off course, be it too much, or too little of certain elements. 
> the easiest solution is to reset the tank. 
> the other option is to slowly back track. my recommendation in the above reply is to slowly backtrack.
> 
> start by slowly introducing a water column that is balanced and clear of as much dissolved solids as possible. we need to do this slowly as not to affect the fauna and flora that is existing in the tank. that is to say, if you do a 100% water change now, the fauna may end up in shock and not survive.. removal of elements in the water column will do 2 things.
> 1. recalibrate the substrate and media slowly by drawing out elements that throwing off the balanced set of bacterial processes
> 2. slowly adjusting the fauna and flora back to ideal state
> ...

----------


## Cyberkinetic

That alien creature seems to look like a damselfly nymph... -_-"

----------


## tetrakid

> Finally managed to upload a photo of the current tank:


This must be the best photo I have seen in this forum.... clap, clap, clap... Like...  :Smile: 

As a matter of interest, what lens and mode did you use to take that picture?

----------


## sthh

You got a damselfly nymph in your tank. Ferocious predator of fishes and shrimp. If you find one, there are probably more hiding. Probably some plants you bought recently has eggs in them. Did any fish disappear without a trace recently?

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Haha.. it's a 2yr old Fuji X10, everything auto.. the bug I shot with "super macro" mode.  :Smile: 




> This must be the best photo I have seen in this forum.... clap, clap, clap... Like... 
> 
> As a matter of interest, what lens and mode did you use to take that picture?

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Shucks... 

My fish are only the rummynose tetras.. several times the size of the nymph... so far no deaths.

Hiaz... on top of the current issues now i have to take care of this stupid nymph/nymphs... 




> You got a damselfly nymph in your tank. Ferocious predator of fishes and shrimp. If you find one, there are probably more hiding. Probably some plants you bought recently has eggs in them. Did any fish disappear without a trace recently?

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Quick update, I've been doing 20% water change on alternate days, PH seems to be stabilized at PH 6.0 even on the 2nd day prior to the water change. 

Starting to get some green algae issue, basically strands dangling at the tips of the plants which is in the water flow path. Not too severe yet, so just snip off the tips of my plants about 1cm each. 

Still didn't find time to do the full suite of tests for ammonia/nitrite and nitrate... as I usually do water change late at night when everyone's asleep so as not to incur the wrath of the missus. lol...

Also removed the stems from the front of the tank as quite a lot of the lower leaves are rotting badly. Managed to salvage 10 over of them and planted them directly into the substrate in the same area. 

No sign of the damned damselfly nymph still... secretly hoping it gets gobbled up by the tetras when they are hungry... *fingers crossed*

----------


## aquarius

I'm curious why you didn't use sodium bicarbonate to increase the KH which will also help to increase and stabilise the PH? I feel that using sodium bicarbonate would have been a better approach.

----------


## tetrakid

> Shucks... 
> 
> My fish are only the rummynose tetras.. several times the size of the nymph... so far no deaths....


For foreign creatures do not underestimate their size. Hydras come to mind. Hydras are extremely tiny but they kill big fish. That is why I stopped feeding boons (daphnia) to my fish, as they can contain some hydras too. I had liked boons, but is put off by hydras. They can kill a healthy fish slowly, eating at their internal organs day by day. Very disgusting things, that's why I hate hydras extremely. Now I must try microworms, but I have no experience with them yet.

----------


## tetrakid

> I'm curious why you didn't use sodium bicarbonate to increase the KH which will also help to increase and stabilise the PH? I feel that using sodium bicarbonate would have been a better approach.


How much to use? Can we use the stale bicarb which has been used in the fridge (for odour absorption) for 3 months?

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Hi aquarius,

I've read about using the sodium bicarbonate method to increase/stabilize the PH, however I was very concerned about how much to put and the chemical reaction seems very rapid and I was worried the sudden increase in PH will affect my tetras. 

The coral chips seems to be a more gradual and slow process to increase the PH thus I decided on it, and even then I added them gradually over a week, 50grams each time(which is like maybe 10-15 small pieces each time). It took quite a while for the PH to climb from 4.5 to 6.5, more than 2 weeks. 

I've been doing 20% water changes almost daily due to the high nitrate level, that also was factored in as another consideration of how should i be dosing the sodium bicarbonate as well. 

Finally my nitrate level dropped considerably when I tested the water yesterday, weeks after I did my water changes. It was always off the chart RED and finally I see a decrease and it seems to be between 10-20ppm now. Ammonia and Nitrite are as usual zero. PH seems to be between a 6.4 - 6.6. On the Sera test kit, it was showing a 6.5. 


PH was a 6.5 as well(before water change) and I also got to test GH and KH. GH increased from zero to 5 or 6 and KH still zero. I expected the GH to increase, but was surprised the KH was zero though. Then I went to test my tap water for KH and it came up I think 1 or at most 2. That probably explains why even when I do frequent water changes, the KH didn't increase at all. Wonder if I should start looking at sodium bicarbonate to increase the KH but I'm also concerned if my PH will continue to increase or not? I think 6.5 is quite decent for my rummynose since I read they prefer slight acidic water. 

I've now have a green hair algae problem... not a big problem, but starting to be one as it is now on the tips of most of my plants. I'd snip off the tips of the plants and the algae will regrow 2-3cm within 2 days or so. Irritating. 

Stopped dosing Seachem flourish, but continuing the Excel daily. As most of my plants are only having the top 2-3cm that are green and the rest turning brown and melting away, I'm thinking if I should just remove all of them and swap for new plants. Since they probably had done their job to clean up my water and sacrificing in the process. The new plants i get "SHOULD" survive properly now since the water condition is definitely improving. But probably hang on a while as I tackle the algae issue. Actually if I replace the plants now, that seems to be a shortcut to get the algae out of the tank as well. 





> I'm curious why you didn't use sodium bicarbonate to increase the KH which will also help to increase and stabilise the PH? I feel that using sodium bicarbonate would have been a better approach.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Hi tetrakid, 

no sign of the damn damselfly nymph even though I tried to look for it on so many occasions... Even considering removing all the plants so that it's easier to comb through the tank. It's practically impossible to find it now. 

Been counting my fish as well, so far all accounted for. I think the moment I lose 1 fish, it'll be an alarm call to do the drastic measure of hunting it down. 




> For foreign creatures do not underestimate their size. Hydras come to mind. Hydras are extremely tiny but they kill big fish. That is why I stopped feeding boons (daphnia) to my fish, as they can contain some hydras too. I had liked boons, but is put off by hydras. They can kill a healthy fish slowly, eating at their internal organs day by day. Very disgusting things, that's why I hate hydras extremely. Now I must try microworms, but I have no experience with them yet.

----------


## IrvineChen

Attachment 40709
Hi Guys, 

Could help me verify the above is wat creature? Damn..... Quite several of them in my substrate, and even appear crawling out and snatching Bloodworm with my shrimp... Damn....

----------


## aquarius

> How much to use? Can we use the stale bicarb which has been used in the fridge (for odour absorption) for 3 months?


1/2 teaspoon per 100 Liters raises the KH by about 1 dKH. I teaspoon = 5ml

I'm not sure whether you can recycle stale bicarbonate a not. If you have less than 100L of water in the tank, just mix the powder into a mineral water bottle and pour a little each day into the tank.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Kept up with my 20% water changes till now and changed all the plants in my tank which were losing the battle with the green hair algae with bunches of cheap elodea... no sign of the damselfly nymph when I replaced all the plants as well even though I did a very thorough search with my torchlight. Fingers crossed it was trapped in the plants which I had threw away. 

PH hovering around 6 - 6.5 and other parameters also seemingly stable (nitrate is a orangey 10-20ppm grade all the time). 

Just when I thought everything is good, the elodea started melting away 2 days after I put them in... the green is gradually fading away and turning grey/transparent. sigh... 

I was careful and did not put in any Excel since I'm away that it does affect certain plants and elodea was mentioned in some of those readings. 

And even though I threw away the algae infested plants, they are now appearing ... no on the plants, but on the bed of De-nitrate which I had placed at the front of the tank as well as on the mesh bag which I kept my coral chips.  :Exasperated: x10

Wonder at times why am I still subjecting myself to all these unnecessary stress. 




> Hi aquarius,
> 
> I've read about using the sodium bicarbonate method to increase/stabilize the PH, however I was very concerned about how much to put and the chemical reaction seems very rapid and I was worried the sudden increase in PH will affect my tetras. 
> 
> The coral chips seems to be a more gradual and slow process to increase the PH thus I decided on it, and even then I added them gradually over a week, 50grams each time(which is like maybe 10-15 small pieces each time). It took quite a while for the PH to climb from 4.5 to 6.5, more than 2 weeks. 
> 
> I've been doing 20% water changes almost daily due to the high nitrate level, that also was factored in as another consideration of how should i be dosing the sodium bicarbonate as well. 
> 
> Finally my nitrate level dropped considerably when I tested the water yesterday, weeks after I did my water changes. It was always off the chart RED and finally I see a decrease and it seems to be between 10-20ppm now. Ammonia and Nitrite are as usual zero. PH seems to be between a 6.4 - 6.6. On the Sera test kit, it was showing a 6.5. 
> ...

----------


## tetrakid

Fish-keeping is most enjoyable when things are kept simple, the simpler the better. 
Too much complicated stuff make it a stressful activity or nightmare rather than a pleasant hobby.  :Smile:

----------


## greenie

Please remove the de-nitrate and matrix from your aquarium. It's not design to work like that. They need water flow. Don't waste money, time and effort. Also remove the coral chips. You want stable pH, increase your kH by adding sodium bicarbonate. But I prefer you don't bother with controlling your pH. Your type of substrate behaves like that when new. Just wait.

Reduce your light period. Stop dosing flourish until the algae is eliminated. Continue with excel. New plants melting is normal, just don't kept changing the water parameter as the plants will react accordingly(melting) to acclimatise to new water parameter.

Follow these and you will see positive results soon. But firstly remove the items I mention if you want things to improve.

----------


## Urban Aquaria

The parameters look good... seems more stable now.

Btw, the damselfly nymph might have just finally turned into an adult damselfly and flew away.  ::smt039:

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Hi greenie,

the de-nitrate and matrix I'll just leave them there, even if i take them out, I've got no use for them.. just take it as decoration even though I do know it's not effective... 

I have concern about adding sodium bicarbonate... I mean I am doing daily water changes, so I'm not sure how often or how much to add the sodium bicarbonate... end up my PH might fluctuate too much for my fish to take... 

I've stopped dosing everything actually... my substrate is not new as well, this tank has been around for almost 2yrs. The plants are not just partial melting... basically everything from the leaves to the stems just turns into floating debris.. nothing left... 

It went from this:


To this:


Took me 2 days of water change to siphon out all the debris in the tank... it was one heck of a mess... I think my fish went a little bonkers as I did close to 30-40% water change daily for 2 days... mainly siphoning the rotting plant remains out of the tank. Back-breaking and depressing job...

Left the tank without plants for another couple of days before replanting new ones.. again, I went for the cheap plants and got some rather tough looking plant with long and thick leaves. I think they will last longer this time. Tried asking the guy at Seaview if he can recommend any plants which can survive mild acidic water... he just look at me and says "all plants ok as long as it's freshwater and not saltwater"... -_-" anyway, just tikam tikam ... 


3 days since I planted them, so far so good... none of that immediate melting issue i had with the elodea... water stays pretty clear, PH 6.5 still although no time to do check for the rest of the water parameters... probably tomorrow. Also I found some critters in the tank.. snails... and 2 varieties in fact... must have been in the tank for a while... size is not that small... 


And these two I think mating?? haha.. both sticking together... 



Anyway, I just left them be... hopefully can help to clear some of the algae and stuff in the tank. 





> Please remove the de-nitrate and matrix from your aquarium. It's not design to work like that. They need water flow. Don't waste money, time and effort. Also remove the coral chips. You want stable pH, increase your kH by adding sodium bicarbonate. But I prefer you don't bother with controlling your pH. Your type of substrate behaves like that when new. Just wait.
> 
> Reduce your light period. Stop dosing flourish until the algae is eliminated. Continue with excel. New plants melting is normal, just don't kept changing the water parameter as the plants will react accordingly(melting) to acclimatise to new water parameter.
> 
> Follow these and you will see positive results soon. But firstly remove the items I mention if you want things to improve.

----------


## aquarius

I've had the exact same dying of stem plants situation before. They died about 1 week after introducing them into the tank. I never measured the parameters but from what I remembered when I measured my water last time was that my tap water Ph is about 6.7 - 7.2, Kh 1dkh, never measured Gh but I believe should very low. I am using ADA soil so the Ph and Kh should be even lower. Probably that's why it killed the stem plants. Later when I go and increase the Gh (never measure), the new stem plant didn't die but also didn't grow well. There are other reasons why they didn't grow well but at least they didn't die off. 

It looks like the same case from your water parameters and to make matter worst, you keep changing water every day. This makes adding of sodium bicarbonate and Seachem Equilibrium (to increase the Gh) difficult. Maybe you should fertilise your plants and dose excel (daily) and try weekly water changes.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Fingers crossed, been almost a week since i added the new plants... growing well, especially the round leaves one(not sure what plant it is)... it's sprouting new leaves all over... nothing is melting and hopefully stays that way. 

PH pretty stable already 6.5... 

Very tempted to get some cheap malayan shrimps or cherry shrimps ... but a voice inside my head tells me to hang on first... 

And those snails are really GROWING... getting significantly bigger daily.. haha... 

Am thinking to scale back the water change as well... 





> I've had the exact same dying of stem plants situation before. They died about 1 week after introducing them into the tank. I never measured the parameters but from what I remembered when I measured my water last time was that my tap water Ph is about 6.7 - 7.2, Kh 1dkh, never measured Gh but I believe should very low. I am using ADA soil so the Ph and Kh should be even lower. Probably that's why it killed the stem plants. Later when I go and increase the Gh (never measure), the new stem plant didn't die but also didn't grow well. There are other reasons why they didn't grow well but at least they didn't die off. 
> 
> It looks like the same case from your water parameters and to make matter worst, you keep changing water every day. This makes adding of sodium bicarbonate and Seachem Equilibrium (to increase the Gh) difficult. Maybe you should fertilise your plants and dose excel (daily) and try weekly water changes.

----------


## aquarius

It's best that you listen to the voice inside your head.  :Grin:  Be patient and wait for things to really settle down first before introducing shrimps cos if they were to die and worst still, die in some corner of your tank where you're not aware and didn't remove it, it'll end up causing algae problems.

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Finally caught the little sucker after water change ... hehe...

I thought I saw a rotting stem on the air tube in the tank and was getting my tweezers to get it out... then i saw it twitched ... and on closer look.. it's the nymph!!! It turned from the white when I found it into a light brown colour and MUCH bigger.. probably around 1.5cm.

No time to waste, I just move in slower and squashed it between my tweezers... here's what left of it after i took it out of the water. 


Btw, the damselfly nymph might have just finally turned into an adult damselfly and flew away.  ::smt039: [/QUOTE]

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Found another damselfly nymph a couple of days after the first... managed to catch it as well with the tweezers. Strange, they doesn't seemed to move much in the water. I basically move right next to it and just "pinch" it with the tweezers. Held on for quite a while just to make sure it doesn't move anymore. 


Never ever done something so diligently for so long... I meant the water changes. Tested the water parameters regularly and PH is hovering around 6-6.5 most of the time. Rest of the stuff, the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite are also pretty similar. GH and KH remains low though. 

Finally on Saturday morning, I paid a visit to Seaview and saw several bags of Malayan and cherry shrimps and can't resist it anymore. Bought a bag of 100 malayan shrimps and 10 cherry shrimps. This time, i was extremely cautious... tested the PH of the water in both bags, the malayan shrimps was in PH 6.5 water while the cherry around PH 7. My tank water by chance was around PH 6 so I had concerns on whether they will be able to survive... But i decided not to rush it and did the drip method where I used air tubes and the valves to control the water going into the two bags of shrimps slowly.. drop by drop... Started around noon and tested the PH again in the evening but still pretty similar... so i continued the drips right up till around 4am where my eyes literally can't open and I surrendered and slowly released all the shrimps into the tank. 

Couldn't spot any dead malayan shrimps although I lost 3 of the cherries while still in the bag... not sure if it's due to lack of oxygen or what... one was almost eaten up completely by the time i released them into the tank. 

Happy to say, it's Wed now and I've not found any dead shrimps yet! Phew! Very different from the mass deaths previously. Either the water quality had improved or the acclimatization method worked. Malaysan shrimps started taking on funky colours as well and the cherries are really bright and colourful.  :Smile:  Even the missus gave me a pat on the back and commented I probably survived the worst... hahaha.. after months of waiting, i finally can sit down and watch as the shrimps gathered around the algae wafers that i feed them and munch away... fantastic feeling.  :Grin:

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## Lionhead

> Found another damselfly nymph a couple of days after the first... managed to catch it as well with the tweezers. Strange, they doesn't seemed to move much in the water. I basically move right next to it and just "pinch" it with the tweezers. Held on for quite a while just to make sure it doesn't move anymore. 
> 
> 
> Never ever done something so diligently for so long... I meant the water changes. Tested the water parameters regularly and PH is hovering around 6-6.5 most of the time. Rest of the stuff, the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite are also pretty similar. GH and KH remains low though. 
> 
> Finally on Saturday morning, I paid a visit to Seaview and saw several bags of Malayan and cherry shrimps and can't resist it anymore. Bought a bag of 100 malayan shrimps and 10 cherry shrimps. This time, i was extremely cautious... tested the PH of the water in both bags, the malayan shrimps was in PH 6.5 water while the cherry around PH 7. My tank water by chance was around PH 6 so I had concerns on whether they will be able to survive... But i decided not to rush it and did the drip method where I used air tubes and the valves to control the water going into the two bags of shrimps slowly.. drop by drop... Started around noon and tested the PH again in the evening but still pretty similar... so i continued the drips right up till around 4am where my eyes literally can't open and I surrendered and slowly released all the shrimps into the tank. 
> 
> Couldn't spot any dead malayan shrimps although I lost 3 of the cherries while still in the bag... not sure if it's due to lack of oxygen or what... one was almost eaten up completely by the time i released them into the tank. 
> 
> Happy to say, it's Wed now and I've not found any dead shrimps yet! Phew! Very different from the mass deaths previously. Either the water quality had improved or the acclimatization method worked. Malaysan shrimps started taking on funky colours as well and the cherries are really bright and colourful.  Even the missus gave me a pat on the back and commented I probably survived the worst... hahaha.. after months of waiting, i finally can sit down and watch as the shrimps gathered around the algae wafers that i feed them and munch away... fantastic feeling.


Nice kill the nymphs .
i got rid of quite afew caught them eating my baby fries got me pissed  :Evil:

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## IrvineChen

Attachment 41804

anyone know what is this mini bug?

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## Urban Aquaria

> Attachment 41804
> 
> anyone know what is this mini bug?


Looks like a seed shrimp/ostracod.

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## IrvineChen

seed shrimp? hmm... Their movement super fast.. used tweezer to catch but keep failing

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## Urban Aquaria

Yeah, they can zip around quickly... very difficult to catch them with tweezers. 

They usually hitchhike in with plants and thrive in the same conditions as shrimps (they are shelled inverts too), especially when there is abundant food available.

Some people use those snail traps to attract them to one spot with food bits and then pull them out.

If you have small fishes in the tank, they will usually eat up most of them and keep their population in check too.

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## Cyberkinetic

An update after more than a month since last posted. 

I have been maintaining an alternate day or at most 3 days water change cycle of 25% each time. 

The plants are growing very fast and I need to trim them almost like once every 2 weeks max. No additional fertilization as well(Excel or Flourish) as I am a little concerned over the Malayan and Cherry shrimps I had in the tank. 

Lost 2 Rummynose tetras last week... one after the other on alternate days... not sure of the issue though. First deaths after quite a long time. However since then, no more new casualties and seems to be stable. 

Snail population exploded as well, I must have at least 30-50 snails easily. Quite tempted to drop in an assasin snail or two. haha.. 

Didn't bother with testing for water parameters except PH which fluctuates between 6-6.5. Also no new addition of coral chips or any other additives. 

A strange thing though is the shrimp population:
1) Cherry shrimps are increasing, I can find quite a few shrimplets in various sizes, from 2mm and upwards. Strangely though, none are of the solid reds that I bought... mostly a mixture of red/transparent coloured ones. And they are roaming quite freely in the tank coming to the front of the tank even in bright daylight. Something which they don't do initially, but which I observed since last week.
2) My Malayan shrimp population seems to be drastically reduced. From the 100 that I put in... I can only see maybe 3-5 shrimps each time now... a lot more was visible previously. 
3) I had suspected that there might be a damselfly nymph or two still in the tank since I had caught 2 previously. But I don't find any dead carcasses at all, so that's the part which I have a problem with. In previous experience, i usually get to see some dead shrimps parts here and there ... but now, not at all. So can't confirm if it's damselfly nymph that is the killer or something else. But it's a fact that they seemed to have kind of disappeared from the tank. 

Any idea or suggestion on what could cause the disappearance of the malayan shrimps? Am trying to control putting in another batch until i get this investigated and sorted out.

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## Urban Aquaria

Its probably nothing to do with any damselfly nymph, because if that's the case your cherry shrimp numbers will also be affected too.

It could just be the malayan shrimp population just wasn't as strong as the cherry shrimp population, so over time they just die off while the cherry shrimps increase in numbers. The shrimps will clear up all other dead shrimps very quickly too, so its possible not to be able to spot any dead carcasses (especially when you have lots of snails in the tank too, they are experts at eating up dead shrimps or fishes very quickly).

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## Ingen

Are you having a BBA outbreak?

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## Cyberkinetic

I suspected that too.. But not a trace of any remains.. Which I find strange.. 
Anyway I read that those nymphs spent more than a year in water.. Sigh.. I thought I'd just wait up and hope for the nymph to turn into the adult.. But I think not realistic... Lol 



> Its probably nothing to do with any damselfly nymph, because if that's the case your cherry shrimp numbers will also be affected too.
> 
> It could just be the malayan shrimp population just wasn't as strong as the cherry shrimp population, so over time they just die off while the cherry shrimps increase in numbers. The shrimps will clear up all other dead shrimps very quickly too, so its possible not to be able to spot any dead carcasses (especially when you have lots of snails in the tank too, they are experts at eating up dead shrimps or fishes very quickly).

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## Cyberkinetic

Yes.. Never stops growing.. I surrendered... Used to dose Excel which works... But now with shrimps... I'm not doing that... Probably had to painstakingly remove the stones into a bowl, add excel then wash it clean and reintroduce to the tank. 



> Are you having a BBA outbreak?

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