# Other Aquarium Forums > Equipment and Accessories > DIY Projects >  DIY Aquarium Cooler

## AQMS

Hi,i got these ideas from two different post,one of them is from someone
who convert his mini fridge into an aquarium chiller and another
guy who put his external filter in a cooler.

Material used for these project are,

-Plywood 
-Styrofoam board
-Hose
-Hose connector
-Aqua thermometer
-Clip locks
-Ice packs

Attachment 33007

I choose plywood because i want to custom cut it
to fit my aquarium cabinet.

Insulate the interior with Styrofoam,drill holes 
for tubes insert and thermometer wire.

Attachment 33008

Attachment 33009

i spiral 8 meters of 12/16mm tube in the box 
i insert aluminum foil and place the ice pack
in it. 

Attachment 33010

Now i am doing a dry test on the box and monitoring 
the temperature.Once i have the data for 12hr i will
connect it it to my aquarium.Currently the temperature
is still at 18deg after 5 hrs.

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## mukyo

Its quite scary..
Looked like a coffin.
I am imagining boogeyman peeping at night.

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## AQMS

Its not that big,
it 60 x 23 cm, just nice for my 3 by 2 feet tank cabinet.

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## AQMS

This is the temperature data i recorded for 24hrs

Hrs Deg
--- --- 
1 18c
4 18c
8 19c
12 19c
18 22c
24 24c

The temperature of the tank will be different once i connect it to my aquarium.
For that i will take note of the temperature and post it when i have my cooler
connected. Right now i busy with work but will definitely find time to connect it. 

Cheers

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## mukyo

So in the sense, the whole ice cubes lasts 24hrs max?
How tight is the box?
Was thinking those coleman picnic container actually, might be tighter.

Ps: boogeyman IS half meter tall, beware.... lol

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## BFG

The data you collected will be way different once you connect to the main tank. The heat will be introduce from the tank to the cooler box.

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## AQMS

yes, at the 24th hrs the box temp is at 24deg.
Coleman container..im not sure.. but im sure mine is well secure because of the clip lock.
Bfg is right once i run it with the aquarium it will be different,i hope the different 
will be not much.

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## AQMS

yes,it will be interesting to find out,anyway i added another 4metre of tubing in the cooler 
to maximize the box.

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## AQMS

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/...1/IMG_5142.png
i added another 4 meters tube....total 12meters

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## mukyo

It should matter the tickness and material of the tubing i guess.
Might be better to actually use a thin alu, ss orthin plastic pipe internally. Interfacing in and out via plastics tap, with rubber sealing.
To really maximize the fridge effect.
Same thing for the doors.

Ps: boogeyman liked cold stuffs brrrrrr

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## zeltade

Hi zerofighter. Intriguing idea you have, using a wooden box so you get the size you want.
I got a question for you, why do you wrap up your ice packs with aluminium foil?
Correct me if I'm wrong, from what I recall learning in school. Bright color reflect heat, cold in our case, while black absorbs. So won't wrapping the aluminium around the ice pack retain the coldness within the pack itself. of course it'd result in the ice pack lasting longer theoritically, but we want the coldness to last within the cooler box. Which means it is more logical to line the surrounding of the box up with aluminium instead.
Just quoting another example, those food or drink container that is meant to keep the food warm or cold (hardly), usually the inside walls are shiny, followed by insulation (usually double wall vacuum if I not wrong)
It's just my opinion and I may be wrong but we're always learning!
Cheers!

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## jemswira

Zeltade- the bright color thing is more towards radiation. In terms of conduction (like this) it's still the same. Also you can't reflect cold. Cold is not the opposite of heat. Cold is just less heat than your reference point.

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## AQMS

zeltade- the alu foil is for putting the ice pack not wrapping it. i need the foil to collect the water condensation and i can find the right size for it
so alu foil is good so i can mould it to the shape i want

mukyo- yes, my initial plans was to use aluminum coil but it was to ex, so my next option is the tube.
Actually when u mention the frigde door,its a great idea. I will keep it in mind.


Anyway i have not hook the box to the aquarium, very very busy with work, i will post it once i have it running.

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## AQMS

I put the box to test last week,
result - not good the first time.

My first trial was not good, the cooler temp hit 22deg minimum
and my tank temp is 28deg with no fan.2hr later, the cooler
temp is at 24deg and it stayed there for about 4 hrs,
temperature drop to 27deg after 12hrs.
My tank temp during that 12 hrs is around 28plus plus never touch 29deg.
I think it has to do with the weather,it is cooler at this time of the year because of the rain.
I put only 4 packs of ice pack in the cooler.
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/...terx101/1a.jpg

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## AQMS

My second trial was better,i packed the whole box max
with ice pack,total 18 packs 9pcs big ice pack and 9pcs
small ice pack.Box temp hit 14.6deg within minutes,after 6 hour cooler temp is at 18deg.
When i start the second run, i checked my room temperature is 30deg,
My tank is 28deg. 2hrs later,my tank is 26.5deg and my room is stii at 30deg.
6hrs later,tank temp is 26.8deg.
by then my lights and fans just turn on.
At the 12th hr the cooler temp is 20 deg and my tank temp is still around 26.5deg
with fans running.
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/...terx101/2a.jpg

I think i stick with the cooler for now,until i find 
an aluminum flexible 12mm tube or steel tube to replace the
tube in the cooler.If that happen,i think the temp will go down even lower.

Cheers

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## devil_xiaozhu

How long does it lasts till the temperature hit back to 28degree?

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## wongce

Ts: no offence, but don't you find it troublesome to keep on chilling the ice packs and put back into the box and repeat the process everyday?

I am not sure what you want to keep( plant or expensive shrimps), but what if one day you really busy and can't cool the ice packs and exchange? e.g holiday trip, exam, OT at work etc.

if you are keeping expensive shrimps, i think you should really save up and get a proper chiller

if you are keeping plants, chiller is not necessary but i seen a lot of members here who did very beautiful scapes using only fan(s)

By the way, just my humble opinion... i can imagine you running around with ice packs...lol..take care and don't slip...lol

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## AQMS

devil_xiaozhu - I changed my ice pack every 18-20hrs,by then,the temperature is still
around 26-27deg i didnt want to wait till it reaches 28deg.The trick is, once the temperature in the tank stabilized,mind is at 26-27deg
i have to maintain it at that temperature(this is with no fan), but if you let it soar up to 29-30deg
then you are back to square one. My water volume is 273litres,so it takes longer time for the temperature to get
down and up but to maintain it,easy.

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## AQMS

wongce- i agreed, the down side of it to keep changing the ice pack but What i like about it is,
i can keep the cooler in my cabinet with no worries and it is neat, customize to my cabinet.The cooler does not emits
heat and use no power.About the holiday trip,it cant be help but if your are saying exam and OT,it only take less than 5minutes
to change the ice pack,people can spend hours on iPhone and Facebook,what is 5 minutes for a passionate hobbyist?

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## skyjuice

Try what this guy was doing, using peltier electronic chips. 
http://www.shine7.com/aquarium/chiller.htm

Multiple small power chips can be used to make up the requirement. Cooling power about 0.8 of electricity power consumptioni. so a 200 watt peltier will have about 160 watts cooling power which is equivalent to Hailea 1/10 hp chiller. A kit for refrigeration unit is available from ebay for something less than SGD50/= including shiipping. Can't remember what power. Replace the cold heat sink with a cooler block plus a temperature controller for less than SGD20/- also from ebay, it will work like a water chiller.

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## skyjuice

For those interested

Temperature controller from Hong Kong
http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/Automatic...item6b1ebabc05

remember to specify you want plastic probe otherwise, they will send metal probe as a standard.

Peltier kit set for refrigeration 120 watts
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-6A-refri...item27cc2c075a

Water cooling block
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...block&_sacat=0

size them to requirement. If the designated power supply is too small, can use one from PC desktop, usually around 10 Ampere for 12 Volts.





> Try what this guy was doing, using peltier electronic chips. 
> http://www.shine7.com/aquarium/chiller.htm
> 
> Multiple small power chips can be used to make up the requirement. Cooling power about 0.8 of electricity power consumptioni. so a 200 watt peltier will have about 160 watts cooling power which is equivalent to Hailea 1/10 hp chiller. A kit for refrigeration unit is available from ebay for something less than SGD50/= including shiipping. Can't remember what power. Replace the cold heat sink with a cooler block plus a temperature controller for less than SGD20/- also from ebay, it will work like a water chiller.

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## AQMS

skyjucie- that is a great site! thanks.. i might go for it but need to do some researched first..
Excellent!

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## wongce

Dear TS, Glad to hear you got the FIRE for this hobby... :Smile:  

Dear Skyjuice, interesting sites.... :Smile:  good dose of poison to all readers/members...lol

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## skyjuice

One snag, these Peltier chillers are not as energy efficient. Can get only about 80% of input.. Suspect that Resun CL150 and other smaller chillers use the same technology. Chillers using freon are more efficient because freon do extra to get "free energy" during expansion. one Kw input can get around 1.5 to 2.5 Kw output Can use Peltier chillers as spare though instead of buying another chiller.

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## BFG

I think for zerofighterx101 case, he need to fill the box with water and add the ice pack. The water and ice combination will cool his coil better as the cold water will envelope his coil thus efficiently able to bring down the temp as well as cooling the water in the coil.

Skyjuice peltier chiller might work for small tank, with low night temperature currently occuring but when the hot season comes around, a refrigerant chiller might cut down the times a chiller is activated.

The way I see right now with the monsoon season at our doorstep, a simple large pail and a long length of filter hose might suffice. Loop the hose in the large pail and connect it to the filter or pump ( preferably a higher output canister filter with the strength to push water in the extra length hose ). Fill the pail with water until it cover the hose and let nature takes its course. The surrounding low temperature at night will cool the water in the pail which in turn cool the water in the hose and back to the display tank. For maximum effect, leave this setup outside your house as the water would be more colder outside than inside your home. But as a precaution, do monitor your tank water in case it dropped way below what your livestock is comfortable with.

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## skyjuice

This video will show how peltier chips work. It can go down to freezing point. If there are more chips running in parallel, it can even freeze a tank. This is actually how ICE Probe chiller works also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snrE1...eature=related

As for the natural cooling using surrounding low temperature, one could cool the most to the ambient wetbulb temperature which averages around 28C oin a very efficient method such as using very efficient cooling towers. If one were to dig a well deep into the ground, may be one can get a temperature around 27.5C.





> Skyjuice peltier chiller might work for small tank, with low night temperature currently occuring but when the hot season comes around, a refrigerant chiller might cut down the times a chiller is activated.

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## skyjuice

Here is how ICEProbe works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmkDW8C6e3Q

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## BFG

Please do a search in this forum regarding peltier chiller. It has been discussed before.

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## tawauboy

peltier offers 5-8% efficiency. >90% of the input energy is lost as heat. very inefficient
vapour phase compressor has efficiency of about 50%.

iceprobe works fine only for a small tank of < 2 feet. it is practically useless for a bigger tank.

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## skyjuice

Resun CL150 is an electronic power chiller, made from peltier. It is rated as 200 Watts for 150 watts cooling.. so efficiency is around 75%

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Resun...447799364.html

I own a 1/4 hp Resun CL650 which measured to consume about 500 watts of electricity. It is a freon 134a chiller. The rated cooling power is around 650 watts.. so the efficiency is around 130%. Yes >100%, this is because freon do some extra work absorbing energy during expansion. Normal air conditioner has efficiency >200% because they have more efficient evaporator.




> peltier offers 5-8% efficiency. >90% of the input energy is lost as heat. very inefficient
> vapour phase compressor has efficiency of about 50%.
> 
> iceprobe works fine only for a small tank of < 2 feet. it is practically useless for a bigger tank.

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## BFG

Skyjuice, your involvement in this topic, has it got to do anything with this peltier based chiller or you are a firm believer in this end of the cooling technology? You joined this board just to push this topic for everyone exposure, do you have a stake in this at all? Are you currently using a peltier based chiller or do you own one?

Let me give you an insight of what type of chiller I've own before.
1- Teco M3,
2- Sfiligoi 1/10hp, ( with external temperature sensor )
3- Daeil 1/10hp, ( with external temperature sensor )
4- Resun CL650, ( stock )
5- Hailea 1/6hp, ( stock )
6- Mitsubishi Starmex Compressor modified for aquarium used. ( with external temperature sensor )

Out of the 6 of the above chiller, the cl650 is gone due to a massive failure that cost me to lose all my coral collection. Long story short, massive rapid refrigerant loss. The Sfiligoi is on standby duty, the Daeil and Hailea is on loan and the Starmex is my current chiller for my 4 footer. The Teco M3, a peltier based chiller, is in my Ikea Samla container, a reminder to me that this type of chiller is not favourable in our country climate.

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## skyjuice

BFG, to answer, I have no stake in selling chillers. I am presently having a little project using aquarium chillers. Just like to share my little knowledge. I have Resun CL650 and Hailea 150a chillers.

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## tawauboy

> Resun CL150 is an electronic power chiller, made from peltier. It is rated as 200 Watts for 150 watts cooling.. so efficiency is around 75%
> 
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Resun...447799364.html
> 
> I own a 1/4 hp Resun CL650 which measured to consume about 500 watts of electricity. It is a freon 134a chiller. The rated cooling power is around 650 watts.. so the efficiency is around 130%. Yes >100%, this is because freon do some extra work absorbing energy during expansion. Normal air conditioner has efficiency >200% because they have more efficient evaporator.


do research more on peltier.
do you know that 1 hp is about 745 watts?

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## skyjuice

I am a registered professional M&E engineer for last 38 years. Have been designing airconditioning system, installing and commissioning very large chillers for buildings in Singapore and Malaysia. I was a reefer some 30 years ago. 




> do research more on peltier.
> do you know that 1 hp is about 745 watts?

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## skyjuice

When you say peltier has a 5-8% efficiency, you may be referring to its carnot cycle efficiency. It is not the usual Coefficient of Performance (COP) that most chillers are referring to..
Here is extract..



> Thermoelectric junctions are generally only around 5–10% as efficient as the ideal refrigerator (Carnot cycle), compared with 40–60% achieved by conventional compression cycle systems (reverse Rankine systems using compression/expansion). Due to the relatively low efficiency, thermoelectric cooling is generally only used in environments where the solid state nature (no moving parts, maintenance-free, compact size) outweighs pure efficiency
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling


COP (which should have been used earlier) is often used in heat pump and refrigeration. It is the ratio between heat(cooling) energy output and work energy input and this can be more than 100%.

Hope that will clear up the misunderstanding..




> peltier offers 5-8% efficiency. >90% of the input energy is lost as heat. very inefficient
> vapour phase compressor has efficiency of about 50%.
> 
> iceprobe works fine only for a small tank of < 2 feet. it is practically useless for a bigger tank.

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## skyjuice

There is another COP that is often used in chillers, i.e kw per ton. Most commercial chillers nowaday has around 0.6 kw/ton.. meaning chiller will produce 12,000 BTU/hr of cooling with just 0.6 kw of power input. With 3412 BTU/hr per 1KW conversion, the COP would be 12000/3412/0.6= 5.85 which is about 2.5 times more efficient than the aquarium chiller.... because they have super large condensers..




> When you say peltier has a 5-8% efficiency, you may be referring to its carnot cycle efficiency. It is not the usual Coefficient of Performance (COP) that most chillers are referring to..
> Here is extract..
> 
> 
> COP (which should have been used earlier) is often used in heat pump and refrigeration. It is the ratio between heat(cooling) energy output and work energy input and this can be more than 100%.
> 
> Hope that will clear up the misunderstanding..

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## BFG

You have to understand where we come from. In a real world setting, the use of peltier chiller are not practical especially in our climate. You may try to impress me with your mathematical data and such but a refrigerant based chiller is still more practical than peltier. Why is it that there are no peltier based chiller for large tank? For would be peltier based chiller user, often than not, it is recommended to purchase multiple unit for large tank but the cost of purchasing multiple unit could cover the cost of buying a higher model refrigerant chiller needed to cool the tank.

I compare the peltier based chiller as the bicycle and the refrigerant based chiller as the car. Yes both can go from point a to point b but when the health of your pets is detrimental, the refrigerant based chiller would chill your water faster compared to the peltier based chiller, ensuring minimum discomfort for your pets. A peltier based chiller would take too long to bring down the temperature as it is influenced by the surrounding temperature which could stress the animal even more. Imagine a scenario whereby your power supply trip while you're at work and you restart everything upon reaching home, that refrigerant chiller would take a short time cooling the water, with lights and everything switch on but the peltier based chiller would have an uphill task just bringing down 1degree c in the 1st hour or so. This is real world data, most important fact to know for aquarist.

Sorry, you may be an engineer sir, but no aquarist.

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## skyjuice

Resun CL150 is a peltier chiller. It has a cooling output of only 150 watts compare to Resun CL650 (a freon chiller) which has an cooling output of 650 watts. If one were to install 5 nos of CL150 for a fish tank, would it not run as efficient as CL650 in term of cooling down the fish tank? It all boils down to design and the economic. 

Personally, I would not recommend to use 5 CL150 for 1 CL650 because it is just costlier to install and also to run but it has a better redundancy in case one of them should fail to work. Having said that I had agreed earlier that Peltier chillers are not as efficient as freon chillers because freon does extra work for nothing during its expansion phase; therefore, CL650 has a COP 70% better than CL150 (1.30 vs 0.75). In terms of restarting after power failure, peltier chiller will start faster because unlike freon chiller, peltier chiller does not have to wait for 60 seconds recycling time to restart; of course, this is not a significant point to choose peltier chiller. So far, Peltier chiller is good to be used as back up unit because of its relatively lower capital cost and higher running cost for the same unit size (so far, commercial units are less than 300 watts).

I would not dwell again on this topic and hope we can move on.

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## skyjuice

Just to add, resun CL150, Hailea 100a and JBJ Arctical nano, they are all 1/20 hp aquarium chiller. resun is peltier chiller whereas the other 2 are freon chillers. JBJ 1/20 hp has discontinued. Make a comparison among them in terms of capital and running cost.

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## felix_fx2

Thanks, let's wait for zerofighter to update the thread.

This is his wonderful DIY thread.

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## BFG

Skyjuice, I am now really confused with your replies. I am trying to tell you that the working performance between a peltier based chiller and a refrigerant based chiller are far from similar. I'd even gave an analogy of comparing them like a bicycle and a car. But you came out with technical terms that you alone think is worthwhile. It may be true in your line of work but it has no bearing in our discussion.




> In terms of restarting after power failure, peltier chiller will start faster because unlike freon chiller, peltier chiller does not have to wait for 60 seconds recycling time to restart; of course, this is not a significant point to choose peltier chiller. So far, Peltier chiller is good to be used as back up unit because of its relatively lower capital cost and higher running cost for the same unit size (so far, commercial units are less than 300 watts).


I agree peltier chiller will start faster BUT in no way would it be in the same league as a refrigerant based chiller. Even with a 60 second delay in starting time, the refrigerant chiller will overtake the rate of cooling of the water compared to the peltier chiller. The refrigerant chiller would reach it's programmed cooled temperature earlier even with the tank lighting is switched on. The peltier chiller would not reach it's programmed cooling temperature as fast as a refrigerant based chiller BECAUSE it's operation is tied to the temperature of the surrounding area. If the room temperature is at 30 degree c, it would take a long time to reach 26 degree celsius, even with the tank lighting switched off. The refrigerant based chiller would have reached that 26 degree c earlier and would be on standby mode until the water temperature rise again.




> Resun CL150 is a peltier chiller. It has a cooling output of only 150 watts compare to Resun CL650 (a freon chiller) which has an cooling output of 650 watts. If one were to install 5 nos of CL150 for a fish tank, would it not run as efficient as CL650 in term of cooling down the fish tank? It all boils down to design and the economic.


I would say no, I might be wrong as I never had the chance to use 5 peltier chiller. Again, a peltier chiller operation is tied to the surrounding air temperature. 




> So far, Peltier chiller is good to be used as back up unit because of its relatively lower capital cost and higher running cost for the same unit size (so far, commercial units are less than 300 watts).


Again, no from me. If you are keeping a temperature sensitive pets like those exotic shrimps, a peltier chiller will be your worst choice to spend your money on. You see, a refrigerant based chiller will have no problem keeping the water temperature low, as in 25 degree c or lower. If you have a peltier based chiller as a back up unit, that equipment will have difficulty in reaching that temperature target. It might reach it, depending on the surrounding air temperature but it will stay in operation for a very long time to reach it. During that period, your pets would be stressed due to the higher water temperature.

I know you've said peltier chiller are not energy efficient. What you do not know that technically, they are inefficient for aquarium use. This is what me and my buddy, Tawauboy, is trying to inform you. I do agree with Tawauboy efficiency rating of 5-8% as I have tried peltier chiller, sadly when I was not wise of it.




> This video will show how peltier chips work. It can go down to freezing point. If there are more chips running in parallel, it can even freeze a tank. This is actually how ICE Probe chiller works also.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snrE1...eature=related


I think it can do what you said but in this forum, no one is keeping a tank with water alone. There are other equipment like lighting, pumps and canister filter that will add heat back into the water. A refrigerant chiller , proper size for the tank, can overcome this heat addition by various equipment easily but a peltier chiller will have a hard time just maintaining a couple degree c below 30 degree. This is what I meant by real world setting.




> This video will show how peltier chips work. It can go down to freezing point. If there are more chips running in parallel, it can even freeze a tank. This is actually how ICE Probe chiller works also.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snrE1...eature=related
> 
> As for the natural cooling using surrounding low temperature, one could cool the most to the ambient wetbulb temperature which averages around 28C oin a very efficient method such as using very efficient cooling towers. If one were to dig a well deep into the ground, may be one can get a temperature around 27.5C.





> Here is how ICEProbe works
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmkDW8C6e3Q


The youtube clip you've posted had me smiling for a while. To the uninformed person, they could be convinced easily. Of course, a coin and a few drop of water can be frozen easily. WHY you may ask? It is because the chilling surface versus the coin and even the few drop of water is larger, hence the water and the coin will freeze. And if you bother to check what was written on the 1st youtube clip you posted, it said that the air in the room that the experiment is being conducted is being cooled by an aircon down to 26 degree c. That low air temperature definitely helped with the diy peltier cooler. You look but you did not see.

I really hope you are enlightened with my explanation. As a moderator in the equipment section, we do encounter this topic every year and do our best to inform the members but with new members who are misinformed, it has been an uphill task. Some comes into the discussion with good intention while other just wouldn't agree. Yeah, it's time to move on now.

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## AQMS

ok guys....CHILLED....relax..... i read about peltier chiller,interesting love to experiment with it but because im done with the cooler, i probably going to do 
upgrading on the cooler.

Skyjuice and BFG - You guys give good info. lets move on.

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## AQMS

Here is the update,
i try putting a beat up small external filter in the cooler so that i can
cool a small amount of water reservoir in the canister to be pump out to the tank. I got the filter at sungei
road for 5sgd, really beat up,even the uncle is not sure whether is it working. 

Result not good.

My initial set up is better.
I think it is because my first set up, i can fill the box with
ice pack right to the max and there is less air space inside and therefore
the coolness last longer.

The current set up,the one with the canister inside,left me with a lot of space 
which i cant utilize my ice pack.The temperature goes up really fast,the ice pack only last for 12 hrs.
Unlike the first setup it last for 24 hrs.

for now i switch back to my original setup until
i get get hold of the aluminum tube.

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/...hterx101/5.jpg

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## techno123

A long reply. But to be fair to skyjuice, he did not say he recommended peltier chiller nor he say peltier chiller is better than refrigeration chiller for aqua cooling. He only give an alternative pointing out resun CL150 is an aqua chiller made of Peltier and he is leading the readers to where one can find components for DIY such a chiller at a cheaper cost. Whether it is electronic or refrigeration, they work all the same when taking out the heat load from the tank. The fish will not know if one choose otherwise. This is because Peltier can response even faster being electronic. They also use Peltier for many other operation such as cooling and heating as well as electricity generation. The largest so far commercially available cooler is about 1/10 hp. They are developing even larger and better peltier chips. The largest one found on ebay is around 543Watts. Say it has COP of 0.55, this will yield 300 watts cooling which is about 1/10 hp chiller.

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/Peltier-T...item416dd558ee

They are now developing fairly large chip having more than 100mm size that can operate at higher voltage such 110 volts, couple two in series, one should be able to operate it directly from 230 volts mains. This paper give promising views witth good COP.

http://www.furukawa.co.jp/review/fr027/fr27_03.pdf

One would need to do more research and understand Peltier's characteristic and its thermodynamic behaviour. As with any sort of equipment or device, wrong application will not bring joy but bitter experience.

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## techno123

Love to hear it that you want to try peltier. Skyjuice did not mention that one can also make use of small black radiator like this for heat sink

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Alumin...-/180646297270

I happen to have 2 spare one ordered wrongly and never used. If you are interested, leave a message




> ok guys....CHILLED....relax..... i read about peltier chiller,interesting love to experiment with it but because im done with the cooler, i probably going to do 
> upgrading on the cooler.
> 
> Skyjuice and BFG - You guys give good info. lets move on.

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## tawauboy

> When you say peltier has a 5-8% efficiency, you may be referring to its carnot cycle efficiency. It is not the usual Coefficient of Performance (COP) that most chillers are referring to..
> Here is extract..
> 
> COP (which should have been used earlier) is often used in heat pump and refrigeration. It is the ratio between heat(cooling) energy output and work energy input and this can be more than 100%.
> 
> Hope that will clear up the misunderstanding..


i guess this is where the misunderstanding came from.

in a cooling system, efficiency cannot exceed 100% because there will be losses in the system.
take a simple heating system, an electrical heater. it has less than 100% efficiency due to losses in the heating element.
the efficiency of a cooling system will be worse due to the work required to reduce the temperature of the coolant, losses at the heat exchanger and work required to circulate the coolant in the cooling system.

for aquarist, we are interested in efficiency because of the energy cost. we want to know the cooling achieved with respect to the energy consumed.
so when you mentioned that CL150 has an efficiency of 75%, alarm bells start to ring. there is no way for a peltier based cooling system to achieve that number; not even a refrigerant-based chiller.

even the 5~8% efficiency which i mentioned may be a little optimistic. losses from the heat exchanger and power supply have not been included. so a peltier-based chiller is very inefficient. however, the advantage is that there is no running parts and should be quieter while it is operating.

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## tawauboy

> A long reply. But to be fair to skyjuice, he did not say he recommended peltier chiller nor he say peltier chiller is better than refrigeration chiller for aqua cooling. He only give an alternative pointing out resun CL150 is an aqua chiller made of Peltier and he is leading the readers to where one can find components for DIY such a chiller at a cheaper cost. Whether it is electronic or refrigeration, they work all the same when taking out the heat load from the tank. The fish will not know if one choose otherwise. This is because Peltier can response even faster being electronic. They also use Peltier for many other operation such as cooling and heating as well as electricity generation. The largest so far commercially available cooler is about 1/10 hp. They are developing even larger and better peltier chips. The largest one found on ebay is around 543Watts. Say it has COP of 0.55, this will yield 300 watts cooling which is about 1/10 hp chiller.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/Peltier-T...item416dd558ee
> 
> They are now developing fairly large chip having more than 100mm size that can operate at higher voltage such 110 volts, couple two in series, one should be able to operate it directly from 230 volts mains. This paper give promising views witth good COP.
> 
> http://www.furukawa.co.jp/review/fr027/fr27_03.pdf
> 
> One would need to do more research and understand Peltier's characteristic and its thermodynamic behaviour. As with any sort of equipment or device, wrong application will not bring joy but bitter experience.


2 questions
a) assuming that the device you mentioned (consumption of 543 watts and cooling of 300 watts - 55% efficiency) works as advertised, do you have any idea of the amount heat that needs to be removed from the peltier device? i believe one can cook an egg with the waste heat.
b) are you able to verify that the 300 watts cooling is real and not some marketing number?

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## techno123

Not sure why pple pick on skyjuice. what he had said are so far correct. His website on CL150 has the following which I work out to be 0.75%.. 

http://i47.tinypic.com/35amc0o.jpg

the other site @ www.shine7.com also showed that his peltier chiller has a cop of 0.53 which is less efficient

http://i45.tinypic.com/ogwe8y.jpg

skyjuice should thank me for clarification

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## techno123

ever heard about cpu liquid cooling? this can take 660 watts with 2 80mm fan. I happened to have 2 of similar type but for 100mm fan, aluminum type

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=2023




> 2 questions
> a) assuming that the device you mentioned (consumption of 543 watts and cooling of 300 watts - 55% efficiency) works as advertised, do you have any idea of the amount heat that needs to be removed from the peltier device? i believe one can cook an egg with the waste heat.
> b) are you able to verify that the 300 watts cooling is real and not some marketing number?

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## skyjuice

Thanks Techno.. promised not to dwell with this topic anymore.




> ...skyjuice should thank me for clarification

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## tawauboy

> Not sure why pple pick on skyjuice. what he had said are so far correct. His website on CL150 has the following which I work out to be 0.75%.. 
> 
> http://i47.tinypic.com/35amc0o.jpg
> 
> the other site @ www.shine7.com also showed that his peltier chiller has a cop of 0.53 which is less efficient
> 
> http://i45.tinypic.com/ogwe8y.jpg
> 
> skyjuice should thank me for clarification


as you are familiar with COP, could you share your knowledge on this topic?
it seems that COP is the ratio of useful work (cooling power) to input power. how does one derive the cooling power for CL150 based on information provided by the website?

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## tawauboy

> ever heard about cpu liquid cooling? this can take 660 watts with 2 80mm fan. I happened to have 2 of similar type but for 100mm fan, aluminum type
> 
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=2023


i am sure that you know cpu liquid cooling and aquarium cooling are different animals.
cpu cooling takes heat from the cpu and dump it elsewhere. the cpu temperature is much higher than ambient temperature and the coolant transports the heat away from the cpu. a fan is then used to reduce the temperature of the coolant throught a radiator. the final cooling medium is ambient air.
for aquarium cooling, where the water temperature is within a few degrees of ambient, so you will not be able to use ambient air to cool the aquarium.

this is why we are not able to get a glass of cold water using a simple cooling system made from a water block, a water pump, coolant, a radiator and fans.

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## techno123

We are talking about how to remove the heat from the peltier and not from aquarium. Study the Shine project carefully, please




> i am sure that you know cpu liquid cooling and aquarium cooling are different animals.
> cpu cooling takes heat from the cpu and dump it elsewhere. the cpu temperature is much higher than ambient temperature and the coolant transports the heat away from the cpu. a fan is then used to reduce the temperature of the coolant throught a radiator. the final cooling medium is ambient air.
> for aquarium cooling, where the water temperature is within a few degrees of ambient, so you will not be able to use ambient air to cool the aquarium.
> 
> this is why we are not able to get a glass of cold water using a simple cooling system made from a water block, a water pump, coolant, a radiator and fans.

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## techno123

For TEC peltier, there is a TEC calculator in shine's project where one can put in the parameters such as temperature difference etc to get the result. The other way is to measure. for this case, it is given by the website.




> as you are familiar with COP, could you share your knowledge on this topic?
> it seems that COP is the ratio of useful work (cooling power) to input power. how does one derive the cooling power for CL150 based on information provided by the website?

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## Navanod

Ah...computer watercooling. I used to be crazy about it. In fact, my current old rig is still cooled by an overkill WC loop.
Well, the first problem with trying to use PC Water cooling gears for aquarium, peltier or otherwise, is not efficiency or power consumption.

It's chokes, toxicity and corrosion. Most good watercooling waterblock and radiator are made of copper and will be highly toxic. That leaves the 2nd tier aluminum blocks. However, aside from not being as conductive as copper, they are soft and prone to corrosion & damage. Most PC cooling system uses proper coolant and corrosion are normally due to galvanic corrosion (mixing aluminum and other metal in the loop).

In aquariums, with acidic water full of all sorts of crap, the aluminium waterblock will likely rot away and either chokes or leaks. Aluminum is also toxic to aquatic organisms under acidic conditions.
That is why most aquarium chillers use stainless steel or titanium. To date, I've not seen any easily available waterblocks made of steel or titanium.

If we look at one of the ancient 1st gen (less complicated and less effective) waterblocks:

it's terribly restrictive and would not be able to take the flow needed to effectively cool a large volume of water. A high flow, high head pressure pump hooked up to one will probably cause the hoses to pop off or kill the pump. Add crap from the water and corrosion and you get this:

Newer generation waterblocks are even more restrictive, although I doubt anyone makes them in aluminum anymore. It's almost a fine filter!
 

The one used on Shine Project looks like one of those generic older "fins in a chamber design" waterblocks from Alibaba. That'll corrode and choke in no time with tank water going through it.

It is also interesting that the idea was floated to use a 2nd watercooling loop with radiator to cool the peltier chip so that its performance does not deteriorate. The effort, energy cost and space needed for that, is it worth it?
I did explore somehow using a 2nd loop of coolant to somehow cool my tanks without tank water coming into contact with the copper since I have ALOT of leftover radiators, pumps and waterblocks. Too noisy, cannot scale with tank volume and not quite worth the effort frankly.

If one looks at the really extreme PC coolers, they either use dry-ice/liquid nitrogen (which is purely for benching as no one can run it long term), evaporative cooling (bong coolers) or phase cooling (ye olde refrigerant compressor based tech). Some folks do use peltier for benching as well but it's easier to just dump dry ice into a cooling pot.

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## felix_fx2

> ever heard about cpu liquid cooling? this can take 660 watts with 2 80mm fan. I happened to have 2 of similar type but for 100mm fan, aluminum type
> 
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=2023


CPU cooling lets say, IF they still produce *aluminum* based waterblocks then MAYBE.
Else this topic has been brought up before. Very strong doubt swifttec or dangerden makes any since Copper is a much better conductor of heat.




> We are talking about how to remove the heat from the peltier and not from aquarium. Study the Shine project carefully, please


Hi Techno,

You talking about 




> how to remove the heat from the peltier and not from aquarium


May i ask can this be implemented in TS's DIY?
If so are we using water block where, radiator where. 

Cost efficient vs real world usage, this i guess is in many folks mind...

Thou good to give TS suggestions, I do see that you are somewhat derailing this thread into a technology debate with the others. Keep it to helping the TS

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## techno123

This issue of aluminum or copper poisoning or rusting should not arise if one were to DIY the Peltier's cooling block using stainless steel or suitable box section with ends sealed with inlet and outlet connectors. Aluminum or even copper box or stock cooling block can be used on the hot side of the peltier with radiator to extract the heat to atmosphere. Just providing alternative views. Think I have said and also clarified with enough information. Will let the other readers go and decipher the rest.




> Ah...computer watercooling...... .

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## BFG

Sorry to derail your thread zerofighterx101 but some of the misinformation has to be corrected. You must understand that there are others who might stumble into this thread and thought that what is posted would be taken as the correct info and might jeopardise their setup.




> A long reply. But to be fair to skyjuice, he did not say he recommended peltier chiller nor he say peltier chiller is better than refrigeration chiller for aqua cooling. He only give an alternative pointing out resun CL150 is an aqua chiller made of Peltier and he is leading the readers to where one can find components for DIY such a chiller at a cheaper cost.


Are you sure? His 1st post since joining this forum.




> Try what this guy was doing, using peltier electronic chips. 
> http://www.shine7.com/aquarium/chiller.htm
> 
> Multiple small power chips can be used to make up the requirement. Cooling power about 0.8 of electricity power consumptioni. so a 200 watt peltier will have about 160 watts cooling power which is equivalent to Hailea 1/10 hp chiller. A kit for refrigeration unit is available from ebay for something less than SGD50/= including shiipping. Can't remember what power. Replace the cold heat sink with a cooler block plus a temperature controller for less than SGD20/- also from ebay, it will work like a water chiller.


Another misinformation.




> Love to hear it that you want to try peltier. Skyjuice did not mention that one can also make use of small black radiator like this for heat sink
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Alumin...-/180646297270
> 
> I happen to have 2 spare one ordered wrongly and never used. If you are interested, leave a message





> ever heard about cpu liquid cooling? this can take 660 watts with 2 80mm fan. I happened to have 2 of similar type but for 100mm fan, aluminum type
> 
> http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=2023


These are useful to remove heat from water, not to lower temperature as it also is affected by surrounding temperature. That's why pc enthusiast uses these to cool their water from their watercooling setup on their pc. The hot water passes through the radiator and cooled the water to room temperature. In an aquarium however, you need the water to go below what the room temperature is.




> We are talking about how to remove the heat from the peltier and not from aquarium. Study the Shine project carefully, please


We are talking about how to cool the water, not to remove the heat from peltier. This is what the topic starter, zerofighterx101 is trying to do when he start this thread. Do not lose focus, Skyjuice 1st post was to recommend the use of peltier remember?!?




> Try what this guy was doing, using peltier electronic chips. 
> http://www.shine7.com/aquarium/chiller.htm
> 
> Multiple small power chips can be used to make up the requirement. Cooling power about 0.8 of electricity power consumptioni. so a 200 watt peltier will have about 160 watts cooling power which is equivalent to Hailea 1/10 hp chiller. A kit for refrigeration unit is available from ebay for something less than SGD50/= including shiipping. Can't remember what power. Replace the cold heat sink with a cooler block plus a temperature controller for less than SGD20/- also from ebay, it will work like a water chiller.


This post is what alarmed me the most.




> This video will show how peltier chips work. It can go down to freezing point. If there are more chips running in parallel, it can even freeze a tank. This is actually how ICE Probe chiller works also.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snrE1...eature=related
> 
> As for the natural cooling using surrounding low temperature, one could cool the most to the ambient wetbulb temperature which averages around 28C oin a very efficient method such as using very efficient cooling towers. If one were to dig a well deep into the ground, may be one can get a temperature around 27.5C.


How can a 38 year experienced professional engineer missed the detail??? The link Skyjuice posted above shows the experiment is done in a room chilled by aircon at 26 degree c. By this flaw, the peltier performance is increased dramatically. I want to say that this would be considered as cheating and favour highly on the peltier chiller side. What if a refrigerant chiller is also cooled in a room by an aircon at 26 degree c? It would enhanced the refrigerant chiller performance too wouldn't it? Click on the link if you want to see the truth.




> I am a registered professional M&E engineer for last 38 years. Have been designing airconditioning system, installing and commissioning very large chillers for buildings in Singapore and Malaysia. I was a reefer some 30 years ago.


And one more thing, why is it Skyjuice and Techno123 post are only prevalent in this thread? Coincidence? Can it be they are the same person or even related? Something fishy, I hope I am wrong.

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## techno123

I give up... think we are getting to nowhere..last quote.. Shine7 said




> I set the temperature control to 25 degree. The hottest day here in HK since I made this chiller was 32 degree outdoor
> and 30 degree indoor, and it can cool the water to 25 degree. My estimation is that this chiller is able to cool 20 liter of
> water to about 6 degree below ambient.




He has got the peltier chiller working with a COP of 0.5376.. that is left for all readers to read..no point arguing by just talking talking.. 

Lets agree to disagree, think Resun is wrong to come up with CL150.. it just does not work according to someone

http://i46.tinypic.com/mwe0wj.jpg

bye bye and thanks for reading..

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## BFG

Techno123, do you know what tank size the topic starter has?




> Its not that big,
> it 60 x 23 cm, just nice for my 3 by 2 feet tank cabinet.


For that size cabinet, he may have a 1ft tall tank or a 1.5ft tall tank or even a 2ft tall tank, which might be the norm for that cabinet size. Did you mis-read somewhere? The peltier chiller is too small to chill that large tank. 20 litre of water 6 degree c below ambient? Resun is not wrong to come up with the CL150, somebody is wrong to want to use that chiller on a 3ft tank. Another detail that the 38 year professional engineer overlooked.

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## techno123

Ok got it. We now agree that Peltier chiller will work except it is too small for a 3 ft tank.. of course.. no rocket science calculation..100% agree it is too small.. Shine7's chiller only has 69 watts cooling (or about 1/40 hp) and CL150 only has 150 watts (or 1/20 hp). 3 ft tank will require at least 1/10 hp.. it would need 2xCL150 or 4xshine7... but isn't 1x 534 watts (300 watts cooling or 1/10 hp) peltier mentioned earlier able to provide that cooling? What about 2x534 watts peltier then? As pointed out by Skyjuice, it is matter of capital cost and economy to choose peltier chiller. Cheap but high running cost..only recommended as backup..Glad we get this cleared up.. 

Did some reading.. someone in this forum tried to use CL85 or CL150 and found cooling not to expectation. Suspect that Resun overrated their peltier chillers. Instead of cop of 0.75, one should just use 0.53. shine7 has a superlarge heat sink yet he can only get a COP around 0.53. He used TEC manufacturer's software to compute.. more creditable?

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## BFG

I was right, YOU mis-read. My 2nd post in this thread already agree.




> Skyjuice peltier chiller might work for small tank, with low night temperature currently occuring but when the hot season comes around, a refrigerant chiller might cut down the times a chiller is activated.


There was no need for us to banter back and forth if the professional engineer had read properly. If YOU had checked earlier as I had advised on my 3rd post in this thread, you might have found out.




> Please do a search in this forum regarding peltier chiller. It has been discussed before.


Your reply far later in this thread.




> Did some reading.. someone in this forum tried to use CL85 or CL150 and found cooling not to expectation. Suspect that Resun overrated their peltier chillers. Instead of cop of 0.75, one should just use 0.53. shine7 has a superlarge heat sink yet he can only get a COP around 0.53. He used TEC manufacturer's software to compute.. more creditable?


However, this is not preferable.




> Ok got it. We now agree that Peltier chiller will work except it is too small for a 3 ft tank.. of course.. no rocket science calculation..100% agree it is too small.. Shine7's chiller only has 69 watts cooling (or about 1/40 hp) and CL150 only has 150 watts (or 1/20 hp). 3 ft tank will require at least 1/10 hp.. it would need 2xCL150 or 4xshine7... but isn't 1x 534 watts (300 watts cooling or 1/10 hp) peltier mentioned earlier able to provide that cooling? What about 2x534 watts peltier then? As pointed out by Skyjuice, it is matter of capital cost and economy to choose peltier chiller. Cheap but high running cost..only recommended as backup..Glad we get this cleared up.


Here in this forum, we actively recommend would be chiller owner to buy a step up model than the one that is rated for their tank size. The reason being during the hot weather period, which regularly occur in our island, the model rated for their tank might not be capable to keep up with the extra heat load that the hot period freely provide. If they were going to get a 1/10hp tank for their 3ft tank, it is recommended to get the 1/5hp instead, a model higher. No aquarist would want to be caught with their pants down when they realize their properly rated chiller couldn't keep up during the hot period. And sometimes, the rating provided online might not be correct so we err on the safe side. Buying a higher model cost more in the beginning but it beats having to buy a proper sized chiller and having the chiller constantly working and touch wood, it broke down and you have to go out and spend another large sum of money to buy another higher rated chiller, be it branded or made in china, their quality are constantly improving.

Hold on, I am not finished yet.

Also with purchasing a chiller model higher than what your tank size is rated at, it is also essential to have your chiller modified to include an external temperature sensor too. The main reason being, with the stock internal temperature sensor, the chiller achilles heel would fall on the pump or canister filter. If the canister filter flow rate is too fast or slow, the chiller would have a false reading of the temperature and might stop chilling prematurely. The dreaded stop start problem. With the external temperature sensor modification, the chiller is reading the actual water temperature in the tank instead of the water in the chiller water compartment. This will eliminate the stop start problem a stock chiller usually experience. You can have a low flow ( nothing below 500lt/hr for a 2ftx2ftx1.5ft tank ) and still the chiller will perform as normal.




So, where do peltier chiller fit into this scenario? No where, I'm afraid. Here in lies the endth of the lesson. Thanks for reading.

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## tawauboy

> .... shine7 has a superlarge heat sink yet he can only get a COP around 0.53....


now i am not sure if you really understands COP.
what has heatsink go to do with COP? i am sure that you agree that COP is the ratio of cooling power to input energy. there is no mention of heatsink in the formula.
the heatsink is there to remove heat from the peltier device. shine7 most likely chose the heatsink because that heatsink is able to meet his requirement of dumping ~200 watts of heat (as a consequence of designing to remove 69 watts of heat from his 20 litre aquarium), is an off-the-shelf part and matches to the water block.

you are too hung up on COP. from the definition, COP does not take into account of other factors such as ambient temperature, thermal resistance of thermal junctions and thermal paste, losses from power supplies and losses from fans. it a figure of merit for heat exchanger. this may be useful if one needs to optimize the cooling/heating system. now, given a cooling device with COP of 0.75 or 0.53 or any number, would you be able to determine whether the cooling device can provide sufficient cooling power? i don't think so.




> .... Suspect that Resun overrated their peltier chillers. ....


no need to suspect. do some simple calculations to check whether the numbers make sense.
take CL150 which has 150 watts of cooling power and a 2ft tank (54 liters)
specific heat capacity of water - 4187J/kgK
to cool 54 liters of water by 1 degC, the amount of heat to be removed = 4187 x 54 = 226,098J
CL150 cooling power is 150W = 150J/s
therefore, time to cool 54 liters of water by 1 degC = 226098/150 = 1507.32s = 25 minutes 7.32 seconds
so can CL150 cool 54 liters of water by 1 degC in 25 minutes? what do you think?

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## skyjuice

About heat sink, this article should help one to understand more about Peltier. Peltier can transfer more heat across the when the temperature difference (delta T) between the hot and cold side is small. for example, if delta T is 55°C, it can transfer only 10W of power (in the form of heat) and 40 watts if delta T is zero. May be we all need to learn more.. rest my case again.

http://www.heatsink-guide.com/peltier.htm

My little understanding.. peltier chiller is cheaper but expensive to run.. good to get a freon chillers. There is a lelong in Reefclub now for 2nd hand chillers, resun going for $80/= and Teco going for $120.. grab them.

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## techno123

Thanks skyjuice.. but your assistance will be misinterpreted again. such as you are the one selling the 2nd hand chillers.




> About heat sink, this article should help one to understand more about Peltier. Peltier can transfer more heat across the when the temperature difference (delta T) between the hot and cold side is small. for example, if delta T is 55°C, it can transfer only 10W of power (in the form of heat) and 40 watts if delta T is zero. May be we all need to learn more.. rest my case again.
> 
> http://www.heatsink-guide.com/peltier.htm
> 
> My little understanding.. peltier chiller is cheaper but expensive to run.. good to get a freon chillers. There is a lelong in Reefclub now for 2nd hand chillers, resun going for $80/= and Teco going for $120.. grab them.

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## skyjuice

OK. Cannot erase liao. Just treat my post non-existence..ha ha




> Thanks skyjuice.. but your assistance will be misinterpreted again. such as you are the one selling the 2nd hand chillers.

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## AQMS

Hi,it has been almost a month since i last update about the cooler,
so this is it, my final update.

i made a few modification to the cooler,
i sprayed foam in the box near the tube to make it more compact
and i added foam tape to make it a tight close.

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/...psdacde7ab.png
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4b8b5f3d.png

My tank average temperature is 26.5 - 27 deg.
My tank water volume is 273litres.

Lowest temperature recorded is 25.5 deg on a cool weather
Highest temperature recorded is 28 deg on a hot weather.

No fans are used during temperature recording
and no fish were harmed or killed during this experiment.


Cheers!!!!

Merry xmas! and Happy New Year!

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## fireblade

wah TS, interested to see what you are keeping.... 
4 ehiem for your 3 feet tank?!!! :O

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## AQMS

Hi fireblade, i used 2 eheim is for pre-fliter and the other 2 is for media.
I have a total of 6 eheims 4 2222 and 2 2224. I used 4 filter the other 2 are for back up
for spares. I run 2 filter at a time for 12 hrs using timer.
Anyway nothing special in my tank,just plants and small fishes.

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## felix_fx2

actually... why so many.... 4 is quite limit for me already...

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## AQMS

i dont know why i have so many 2222s and 2224s  :Smile: 
Good question..... :Razz:

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## kingic

Hi all,I want to start a TEC chiller project soon. I have 2 design so I dun know which design is better? My tank return pump is 1000/L, will be connect to the inlet of the chiller. Please help to comment.
diy chiller design A.jpgDiy chiller design B.jpg

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## AQMS

> Hi all,I want to start a TEC chiller project soon. I have 2 design so I dun know which design is better? My tank return pump is 1000/L, will be connect to the inlet of the chiller. Please help to comment.
> diy chiller design A.jpgDiy chiller design B.jpg


 Hi Kingic, it is better for you to start a new thread under the DIY section.
regarding (TEC) Peltier cooler you will be surprise on how many inputs you will get.. :Roll Eyes:

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## kingic

Thanks

Sent from my GT-P3100 using Tapatalk 2

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