# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  The Mighty Grindalworms

## stormhawk

I got these from a fellow forumer earlier last year and this is the current state of my culture box. This is a small plastic box with a loose fitting cover held in place by 2 clamps at either side. I made 2 holes on the top cover and taped Micropore over it for ventilation. The scrubber pad is roughly 8 pieces thick with the top most piece a finer grade of scrubber pad and the rest are of a coarse type which I bought from NTUC. They produce enough worms for daily feedings to my fish.

There was a slow down in growth some time in Nov-Dec last year when I fed them solely on Hikari Carnivore Pellets, however, when I switched back to Quaker Oats, their population growth was insane.  :Grin: 

Some don't moisten the food but I find that it helps to mist the food. Oddly, whenever the population explodes, the amount of water condensation on the sides of the container is insane.

IMO, best worm food since you can culture these easily, and gut load them before feeding to the fishes. Ronnie didn't believe me when I said the culture was exploding.  :Laughing:

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## Shi Xuan

Looks like you have a good culture of worms going there. I have a similar result as yours too, but I have 2 huge pads in a 3L plastic container instead of one & I have 4 cultures going on at the moment. Once my 4th culture has become more stable, I will get another 2 more going & inadvertently, I should have more than enough worms to feed the killies. :Grin: 

They are indeed the best food, fatty IMO & can be gut-loaded with different food to increase their nutrition level. A disadvantage would be their size, which only makes them any useful for juveniles, smaller species & most SAA. Other than that, only the red wrigglers or bloodworms can do the trick.

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## vannel

I would really have to get a culture of those worms going at home as well. Do they stink at all? I have no experience with grindals and have never seen them on sale at any LFS but it looks like they are a good alternative to having to chop up tubifex for fry rearing. It also looks like it is alot more sustainable than tubifex.

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## Shi Xuan

Hi Vannel,

Grindal worm cultures don't stink a lot, just a little when you open up the container. That's a question asked whenever someone decides to venture into these slimy critters. :Laughing:  

I find them very useful, eats anything you offer like good little worms & despite not being seen in LFS, makes a good alternative to tubifex worms. Their small size is an added bonus as well for fry that gets too big for artemia nauplii but too small for tubifex worms. Their maintenance simply entails some diligent feedings whenever the food is eaten & changing of their "bath water" when it turns gunky. Nevertheless, grindal worms are a very good & convenient live food for fishes IMO.

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## stormhawk

Yup, the smell is not very offensive, it goes away in a few seconds after the lid is opened. With oatmeal the cultures remain clean, just don't apply the food directly to the bedding, in this case the scrubber pad. The size of the culture can be increased depending on your needs. I don't have a lot of fish to feed at the moment so my box size is just nice for my current needs.

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## vannel

Ahh. That's very good to know. I would probably start a culture in my bathroom. So, a container of moderate size layered with coarse scrub pads below and 1 finer scrub pad on top? Sounds doable. What's the reason for using multiple layers of scrub pads, by the way..? Is it just to hold more moisture in? Food source is primarily Quake Oats?

Also, where can I find a decent starter culture?

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## stormhawk

More pads means more living space for the worms. Because in normal scrubber pad cultures, the bottom one or two pads will constantly be immersed in water. This water bath prevents them from escaping from the sides of the container and provides them with moisture. These cultures should be kept in a dark area, and definitely not in your bathroom if soap or shampoo etc are present. My culture is kept in my tank's cabinet. You don't have to use a finer scrubber pad on the top like I did, because in my case, the finer pad was from the original culture that I acquired from a fellow forumer.

Quaker Oats or any oatmeal is good as a first food for starter cultures. Don't overfeed in the initial stages because these worms can only eat so much in a day and any uneaten food will grow moldy, which is bad for the worms. I usually give mine enough food to last 2-3 days, but this is an established culture. Once established the worms will feed on fish food, like pellets and tabs, depending on your needs. Ronnie aka Ronwill used to feed them with Sera Micron since it contains some nutrients for young fry. 

You can check the Marketplace for sales threads on grindal starters.

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## Shi Xuan

Hi Vannel, 

Please look here for grindal worms;
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ht=#post643152
IMO, as long as there's food and humidity, they are not really difficult to start or maintain. I find them hardy too, since I still manage to find plenty of surviving worms when my last culture crash due to my negligence & it took only a couple of weeks before the culture got back into production.

I think it's time I sell some cultures for extra funding... :Grin:

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## vannel

Hrm. Sounds good. Anyway, someone's selling cultures today! I'm actually going to get the microworm culture instead, and work my way up in sizes. Lol. The microworms seem to be smaller (better for cory fries) and easier to culture, although I understand these individual worms do provide different forms of nutrition for the fry. Hold that thought about selling cultures Shi Xuan..! I'll get back to you if I should have any amount of success in culturing live foods. Microworms -> Vinegar Eels -> Grindal Worms.. Sounds like Tubifex is going to take a back seat soon!

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## Shi Xuan

Shucks, you should have asked that as well. In fact, I do have a couple of newly-bloomed microworm cultures. As for grindals, just gimme a howler when you think you are ready, I'll always be there. :Grin:  

In pertinence to tubifex, I don't think you should let them take a back seat, they are high protein food, which many breeders swear by them despite their notorious reputation for carrying parasites & internal flagellates.(Just clean well) 

One thing for sure, feed with variety, most fishes won't do well with just one type of food in the long run.  :Smile:

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## stormhawk

Microworms and vinegar eels are similar in nutrition, only difference is that vinegar eels are more for mid to surface swimming fry. Bottom hugging fry will be more inclined to consume microworms. There are 2 other worms similar to microworm, with different nutrition values - bananaworm and walterworm. I had all 3 cultures at one point after I imported the original starters from Canada but they crashed eventually. In any event, all 3 types of nematodes are easily cultured in our climate. The only biggest issue is that it takes merely 24 hours or so for a culture to explode in numbers, so you must be very diligent when you have these tiny worms.

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## Shi Xuan

The culturing methods for all these three nematodes are easy, just slight variations, more or less, but the thought of having so many cultures going at a time is suicidal, especially when they can never go beyond 2 weeks & have to re-subbed often. It's a lot of work for me, so I narrowed down to Microworm & find them useful as an alternative to BBS for fry sometimes. 

As for walterworms, I'm doubtful there's still any in Singapore, if that's anything to go by.

On the other hand, another live food worth culturing would be Daphnia magna & I think it was mentioned back then when killies.com was active.

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## stormhawk

I sold both walterworms and bananaworms to several people before my own cultures crashed. Either theirs crashed too or they're not selling their walters. In any case, they're easy to get again from an overseas source.

You would have more luck culturing Moina micrura in our climate as compared to Daphnia magna, which is much larger. Several cultures of green water is necessary if you're going to attempt this. I tried feeding Moina with a yeast suspension, wouldn't work. They seem to prefer green water instead. That's why I got a small 2-3 gallon container with my own green soup. Easy to keep the algae alive with just a few snails.

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## RonWill

> I think it's time I sell some cultures for extra funding...


 Shi Xuan, if you have any ready to harvest grindal cultures, liaise with the GC uncle. He has folks wanting to feed some form of livefoods but just not tubifex.

Catch up with him towards end of next week as he's on MC now, recuperating at home from a bike accident. Last I heard, he's feeling like crap (more like a rag doll that got ran over by a 10-tonner) and having difficulty lifting a cup of coffee to his mouth. He's cursing away too, unable to do any water changes with all that extra time, because he can't bend his back!! Duh... not a good time to be around this grouchy fella!!  :Grin: 




> As for walterworms, I'm doubtful there's still any in Singapore, if that's anything to go by


 Who say don't have? Like I said, catch up with uncle to arrange for the Walters and yep, he's got lots of green water for _Moina_ as well. Just don't expect him to bring along 20litres of it at a time... not in his present condition.

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## stormhawk

:Laughing:  even more reason to stun the GC uncle at home..  :Grin:  lack of mobility means I can scoop some free fish..  :Evil: 

Should ramp up my grindal boxes.

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## RonWill

> ...lack of mobility means I can scoop some free fish..


 erm... he isn't gonna like you very much after this and where's the grindals you promised him??

-------------- OT --------------

Anyway, uncle's bored stiff and sent me these. That's a mangled mess!! No wonder he looks like crap but I gotta say this... he's got taste... Benzi leh!!  :Grin: 

FBE1483H accident_120127a.jpg FBE1483H accident_120127b.jpg
FBE1483H accident_120127h.jpg FBE1483H accident_120127d.jpg FBE1483H accident_120127cx.JPG

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## vannel

This leads me to wonder if the Merc was at fault.. Haha. Even more so since there's a "triangle" on the windscreen of the Merc.. From the looks of it, it seems uncle rammed head on into the Merc who probably tried to swing out from the small road and didn't check for traffic.

How close is my hypothesis..?

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## Shi Xuan

> Shi Xuan, if you have any ready to harvest grindal cultures, liaise with the GC uncle. He has folks wanting to feed some form of livefoods but just not tubifex.


Hmm... I have a new culture of Grindals that is starting to bloom and I can bring it down, perhaps a few more when the cultures get more stable when I visit GC again, probably next week or so. :Smile: 




> Catch up with him towards end of next week as he's on MC now, recuperating at home from a bike accident. Last I heard, he's feeling like crap (more like a rag doll that got ran over by a 10-tonner) and having difficulty lifting a cup of coffee to his mouth. He's cursing away too, unable to do any water changes with all that extra time, because he can't bend his back!! Duh... not a good time to be around this grouchy fella!!


I hope the GC uncle is doing fine because it won't be the same without him around. :Grin:  :Laughing: 




> Who say don't have? Like I said, catch up with uncle to arrange for the Walters and yep, he's got lots of green water for _Moina_ as well. Just don't expect him to bring along 20litres of it at a time... not in his present condition.


As for Walters, I would like to have that! Makes a good and convenient live food to stick around with, besides Microworms. :Grin:

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## stormhawk

Illegal U-Turn?  :Huh?: 

Thank you for pictures now to go buy 4D.  :Grin:

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## RonWill

> How close is my hypothesis..?


 Spot on!!! Uncle has right of way and is blessed to have 2 road user witnesses assisting with TP on-site record. I think he's too stoned for details liao... other than going up the pee poo pee poo... [ambulance lah].

Guess what? He hung up when I suggested bungee jumping over slamming into cars!! Yep... he's grouchy alright!!  :Grin: 

Shi Xuan, walterworm culture noted.

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## vannel

Waa..! The numbers on the 1st picture so blurry.. And the censored one.. Hrm.. The second number 5..? Or 3..?

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## RonWill

> ...now to go buy 4D.


 Don't forget to buy for uncle & me as well!!! 10 big 10 small + roll ...

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## vannel

> Don't forget to buy for uncle & me as well!!! 10 big 10 small + roll ...


Fwahh.. 10 Big 10 Small.. Roll somemore.. That's quite an expensive bet..!

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## limz_777

who is gc uncle ?

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## RonWill

> Fwahh.. 10 Big 10 Small.. Roll somemore.. That's quite an expensive bet..!


 heh... it's not everyday that this lump of blubber slams into a Benzi  :Grin:  Anyway, he's got 2 TP friends advising, so I think he's in good hands.

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## Shi Xuan

> who is gc uncle ?


GC uncle is the shopmaster of Green Chapter, but be warned, Ronnie thinks he may be grouchy at times :Grin:  but I find him a relatively jovial person once I got to know him better. :Wink:

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## Luc Tango

the 'long hair' uncle? hope he gets well soon.

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## Nicky

I think the pic of the bike on the floor is copied from somewhere in the net.. that GC uncle "geng" hence use that pic to get MC..

Coming back to this topic..
What is that piece of transparent thing/platform on top of the wool pads that the worms are feeding on?
What is the purpose of having that piece of platform?

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## RonWill

Shi Xuan, kaoz... relatively jovial also need warning arh?  :Grin: 




> the 'long hair' uncle? hope he gets well soon.


 hanor... that Steven Segal / Mat Rocker wannabe!! LOL!!

So... who's buying 4D? I'll PM the Benzi plate number... then maybe can contribute to uncle's Harley Roadster!! [gawd... if only he knows we're poking 'fun' at his expense  :Grin: ]

erm... I think we've OT quite a bit. Let's time out before AQ Boss comes knocking on this thread  :Grin:

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## RonWill

> I think the pic of the bike on the floor is copied from somewhere in the net.. that GC uncle "geng" hence use that pic to get MC..


 eh Nicky, uncle knows better than to "geng". Besides, he doesn't need to. Only circumstances speak otherwise. Why not try slamming yourself into a car and I'll see what this bag of bones look like after that!! HAHAHA!!!

------ back to topic ------

Translucent plastic (from takeaway container) is a simple feeding platform that helps to keep scrubber pads clean, minimize maintenance and to facilitate easier worm harvesting.

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## limz_777

the guy with the pony tail ? seem like a nice guy ,quite knowledgeable about his products ,just realise he's called ronnie lee as well

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## fongalv

Hi all, since this is the latest and most active thread on grindals, I would like some advice from the seasoned wormers here  :Razz: 

I have been keeping a small culture of grindals for the last 6 months in the original small tau huay container. Been feeding them with oat flakes and they are finished relatively quickily. There will be times when I'm on trips and they go by fine without feeding for about 2 weeks. My "concern" is that their numbers have never been big. I'm using the plastic cup on scrubber method so they crawl up the cup after feeding and I just have to dip the cup into the tank and they fall easily into the water.

Is there any advice on how to get the numbers up? the scrubber pads are just 2 thin layers and I never had a "smell" problem. In fact if I were to compare with what some people recommend, my tub is generally dry-moist at most. Theres usually condensation on the tub lid but I don't submerge the lower pad in water, hence I don't even wash the container(have done it at most 2-3 times in the last 6 months), but they are still producing, abiet in lower numbers.

I'm now considering transferring them to a larger container with thicker pads. Are there any guidelines on when I can start splitting the cultures?

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## Shi Xuan

It seems ok from the way you maintain the grindals but they will not "explode" in a tiny container, where it is concerned. 5L plastic container will be sufficient in the long run, no more or less. 2 pads is just too little, use more scrubber pads to create a taller stack, so that there will be enough room for more worms. 

Oatmeal is a good food but I don't have much luck with them. If you are still getting problem with population growth, try Friskies cat kibbles. They are just as good as oatmeal and an alternative to get the worm population to increase. Some people advocates the need to mist their food but it's not really necessary. The humidity within the container, which is the condensation you see on the inner walls of the containers will soften the food. 

Harvesting the worms is straightforward, as long as there's a flat piece of plastic that doesn't weigh down a lot. When the worms gather to feed, they will stick onto the plastic and simply lift it up and wash the worms into a container when you need them. 

As for splitting the culture, you can do so when the worms are still alive. :Laughing:  Wait for the worms to congregate on the surface of the pad and remove a considerable portion of them. The amount harvested doesn't have to be big, since they will start multiplying when there's food and humidity. :Smile:

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## fongalv

Hi SX,

Thanks for the quick reply. So far Ive only tried oat/cereal flakes and grinded NLS pellets(with pepper grinder). I used to mist the food but have since stopped as I found grinded flakes can also be eaten quite easily plus the fact that misting will add alot more water into the small container which gunks up. After I stop misting, I found there to be less gunky water haha. Not sure about cat food tho, thought the idea was to gut load the worms with more nutritious fish food...cat food sounds kinda funny haha...

The original container had 2 scrubber pads each about 5mm thick so it was only 1cm at most. I just bought another 2 15mm pads which makes about a 3-4cm stack and I will be putting them into the larger container I found in the kitchen(about 1.2L). The next larger size one would be "yu sheng" container but I will leave that to the next time until I can find larger scrub pads.

For now, I'm intending to sandwich the original 2 thinner pads between the 2 new thicker ones before putting them into the larger container. Will this work? I find it rather difficult to get "considerable" amount of worms on the surface of the pad even during feeding as its kinda hard to pincer them from the pads.

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## Shi Xuan

Sandwiching the original pads between the newer ones might work but it will take them a longer time to colonize the new pad on top and feeding can become a problem, especially since the food will not be relished so quickly as compared to stacking the old pads on top of the new ones. 

I would reckon that you keep the old culture and remove a sizable portion of the worms sticking onto the cup you used for harvesting, to a fresh new scrubber pad instead, so in any case when the new culture crashes, you still have the old one thriving.

I never pick at the worms with a tweezer because they are so tiny but remove them by rinsing the plastic that I used to collect the worms with aged water, in your case, to a new medium and feed lightly, since overfeeding will inevitably cause mould in your culture.

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## fongalv

I'm fully intending to split the cultures, just not sure if I need a critical number of worms to "seed" the new culture. If the depth of the scrub pad is an issue for fresh cultures, what if I place each new 15mm scrub pad under each of the old 5mm scrub pads so I have 2 cultures in separate containers?

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## Shi Xuan

It's not necessary to use a large number of worms to start a new culture, it works as long as there's a few worms. :Laughing:  

As for the scrubber pads, it's a good idea to have the new ones under the old pads, for the reasons I've mentioned earlier. As for my cultures, I use a large plastic container and therefore, have two stacks of pads instead of one for the smaller containers that I have as well. This way, I can have an endless supply of worms to feed the fishes. :Grin:

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## RonWill

> ...just realise he's called


 Well, yeah. Small world isn't it?  :Grin: 




> I'm now considering transferring them to a larger container with thicker pads. Are there any guidelines on when I can start splitting the cultures?


 Try reading up on this and this. To culture with traditional media, try this.

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## stormhawk

@fongalv,

Misting the food makes it easier for them to start eating. It takes time before the food goes mushy even in the humid conditions of the box. The gunky water that is produced is a sign that the worms are eating and producing poop, which is normal and enough reason for you to clean out their water once a week or every 2 weeks. You can even culture infusoria with the gunky water. I find infusorians in that gunk very frequently. Though I don't use it unless I have to. If you do a measurement of the water, it ought to be rich in nitrates among other things.

Don't sandwich the old pad between 2 new pads. As the worms multiply, they will colonise all available living space. You must be patient for this to happen because it takes some time before a culture reaches a certain density, and only then should you harvest from that culture. Taking shortcuts doesn't work with grindals. If they don't like the material of the new pads, nothing will make them move from the old pad to the new ones.

Mine disappear into the pads when I don't put food on their harvesting plate. They only congregate when the food is placed, and this mass congregation takes about an hour or so to occur once the worms start to "smell" the food.

-------

In single pad cultures kept in a small plastic takeaway box, they do not fare well for obvious reasons, especially when they start growing in numbers. Think of it as being millions of people squeezed on one tiny island.. No holes on the lid means they suffocate too, which is a common issue with single pad cultures.

Other than the points already raised and discussed, proper ventilation is a must. My worms react whenever I open the lid, or change the Micropore on their ventilation holes. If you must keep them right, don't use clear containers. They dislike bright conditions and prefer some darkness, so a shaded spot for the container is best. Better still if it is an opaque to translucent container.

A stable bacteria culture in the same box is also crucial for their well-being, since these critters take care of the worms poop.

I'm going to start on a bigger culture using huge filter pads from C328 and see how it goes. Perhaps they'll take to open pore sponge pads or even those koi pond filter wadding.  :Grin:

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## Shi Xuan

Jianyang, 

I don't think the productivity will be any good using those filter pads meant for Overhead power filters because they are less dense in relative to scrubber pads. I'm somewhat of an uncertainty avoidance person and only take measured risk to a certain extent. :Laughing:  Scrubber pads would be a safe bet, which is dense and doesn't hold water as much as those filter pads do over time. 

As for the infusoria, yes, the bath water is always teeming with lots of microscopic organisms, which makes a perfect condition for doing some "infusoria seeding" in some of the fry raising containers. I can imagine the possibility for breeding the tiny SAA, Leptolebias and Notholebias. :Grin:

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## fongalv

Not trying to take shortcuts, but trying to ensure the highest chance of survivability of the culture...been rather "lucky" thus far with my minimal maintanence so don't want to take any further chances...

For the links posted above, I have read through them before I got my own culture, just that most if not all mentioned about splitting the culture when population explodes, don't remember seeing much about seeding new cultures...

So, I have stopped harvesting for 2 days to increase their numbers a little. I will try seeding with as much worms I can get by shaking/rinsing the old mats. Don't wanna risk my stable old mats from crashing. Thanks for all the insights guys!

BTW, with regards to cat food, does it pose any risk to the fish thats gona eat the worms? How about smell? I do not get any with crushed flakes, but do get some with micropellets.

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## RonWill

> ...just that most if not all mentioned about splitting the culture when population explodes, don't remember seeing much about seeding new cultures


 So what's the difference in methods? You're seeding (transferring only a small amount of worms), not trans-locating the entire existing culture.

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## fongalv

err...As I read and understand it, splitting an exploding population is to literally divide it into established halves(or more) to prevent overcrowding. Seeding seems more tricky(at least for me) since it involves placing small amounts of worms into a totally new environment.

Anyways, I'm gona try it out tonight!

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## Shi Xuan

fongalv, I can send you a PDF copy for the cultivation of Grindal worms on synthetic pads if you are still encountering any problems or in doubt. Perhaps, it can help you get an idea of how to go about doing this, with some photos as illustrations in it. Fairly simple to digest, because it was written as a laboratory report and guidelines.  :Smile:

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## stormhawk

Cat food, basically any food rich in protein, especially animal protein, will cause a stink. Same when you poop after eating meat.  :Laughing: 

I get a slight smell when I feed the worms with Hikari Carnivore Pellets, not so much with oatmeal.

Splitting culture is the same as seeding new cultures. You can cut this step short by transferring one of the pads with some worms on it, from the old to the new culture. Just place it right on top and feed the worms as per normal. They will colonise the rest of the pads over time. Don't shake or rinse the pad, transferring is better so you don't stress out the worms. This is what I did when I was doing a subculture awhile ago and it works. As long as the pads in the new box are of the same material and texture, the worms will take to it easily. My original culture came on a Scotch Brite scrubber pad piece, then I bought some cheap greenish pads from NTUC and the worms spread out into the new material within the same night.

Shi Xuan, I couldn't find a suitable filter padding, though one was close in texture to the scrubber pad. There was an old article on TFH magazine, somewhere in my room, that gave an early insight on how to culture these worms on synthetic media. In that article, the author used a type of open cell foam, probably PORET foam, or the type used for sponge filters, to culture his worms. It worked too well but his was an early design so mites were occasionally present.

I need to hunt for more materials as I plan for a larger box.

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## Shi Xuan

High protein food like cat biscuits is beneficial for increased productivity although it gives off a really nasty smell whenever I open the lid, but it dissipates very fast and besides, it's a closed lid, so it doesn't really matter. 

A while ago, Tyrone Genade, who kept killies, fed his grindal worms a form of baby cereal, Pronutro and the result was excellent. Alas, this is a South African baby cereal and unavailable locally although I wished it'd been. 

As for oatmeal, my luck was only once and that's all. Fish food was even worst and the result was utterly pathetic. Somehow, the worms are picky and refuse carnivore pellets no matter how I tried. 

Transferring a small piece of the old pad to a new one is an alternative but I try not to disturb the old culture as much as possible. I harvest some worms from the old culture for the new ones instead, especially since the population will not grow if the worms are not harvested frequently. 

I have not found any suitable medium that is as good as scrubber pad for culturing grindal worms. I think Scotch brite or the cheap greenish pads sold at NTUC are the best. If you are intending to use a larger container, perhaps, you can get more stacks of pads, which is similar to having a few of the small cultures going at a time.

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## fongalv

Thanks for the advice guys!

I tried seeding the new container last night, but only managed to get about 30-40 worms out. What I did was to submerge both of my thin old scrub pads in a container of clean tank water so that I cleaned out all the gunk accumulated over the past few months and boy it was really dirty! In process of cleaning and dunking it in water, I suppose most of the worms hid themselves further into the pad and hence only managed to harvest that 30-40 worms for the new culture.

This morning, I found the worms in the old culture congregating as usual on the plastic cup inside the container and instead of harvesting them for feeding, I washed them out and put more of them into the new culture. I intend to do this for another 2-3 days to increase the mass of worms in the new culture without stressing the old culture too much.

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## Shi Xuan

fongalav, it's not a good idea to add anymore worms to the new culture. Add a little bit more, but not too much. It helps to encourage them to colonize the pad faster but it won't work if you add too many worms, besides, the worms in your new culture will reproduce as well.

Leave them be and feed sparingly. The worms in the new culture will take a couple of days to finish the food initially but as they get more established, it will become faster and you need to feed them more often. As time goes by, spread the food around the perimeter of the worm colony, so that they can colonize the entire pad properly. :Smile:

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## jonc711

Hi, may I know if these grindalworms are suitable to feed bettas with?

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## Shi Xuan

Yes, they are suitable for betta but feed moderately, because these worms are fatty and when overfed, the betta might suffer from constipation and therefore, detrimental to their well-being. I think they are ideal for juvenile betta, which is too small for tubifex worms and bloodworms. :Smile:

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## fongalv

Its been 3 days since I seeded the culture into the new pads...still looking pretty empty and I hesitate to feed more(powdered cereal flakes). 

Been adviced above that I will need to be patient, but is there anything I can do to ensure the survivability of the new culture since I was not supposed to rush and add more worms? Do note that since my original culture was small, I've seeded at most 50 worms of various sizes into the new 4 inch thick scrub pads.

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## Shi Xuan

The worms are relatively hardy, IMO and they are definitely in your pad but it's unlikely they will appear if no food is offered. Another possibility could be the lack of moisture that drove the worms deeper into the pad seeking refuge in areas that are moister. 

Give it some time, if there's still not much activity after a week or so, add a bit more worms from your existing culture and feed lightly. :Smile:

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## stormhawk

You can add more worms from the existing cultures but it will still take time for the population to grow in size.

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## |squee|

Are grindalworms bigger in size compared to microworms?

Tempted to get a culture after seeing a thread in the marketplace for them  :Very Happy:

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## Shi Xuan

As true worms, yes, Grindals are definitely larger than Microworms, which are basically nematodes.

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## |squee|

Hi guys,

I recently got a starter culture of these worms from a forum member here.

As the days went by (about 4 days now) the number of worms I can see gathering around the food has gotten lesser and lesser. Am I doing something wrong? They came in a box, with ventilation holes and scrubber pads and dog food pellets.

I don't know if they are inside the pads or something. How do I check, or get them to "come out"?

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## stormhawk

Did you keep the humidity high in the box? Ventilation holes are no use if they do not have a protective screen over it to keep out mites, flies and other insect pests. 

They ought to be in the pads. Just hold a pad and look with a torchlight. If they are not present in the pads but you notice mites and such, then the culture is compromised.

----------


## Shi Xuan

> Hi guys,
> 
> I recently got a starter culture of these worms from a forum member here.
> 
> As the days went by (about 4 days now) the number of worms I can see gathering around the food has gotten lesser and lesser. Am I doing something wrong? They came in a box, with ventilation holes and scrubber pads and dog food pellets.
> 
> I don't know if they are inside the pads or something. How do I check, or get them to "come out"?


Keeping the culture in a dark place with sufficient humidity within the container, along with ample food on the pad, should lure the worms out of hiding.

Are the pellets promptly consumed? Overfeeding especially with high protein foods like dog and cat kibbles, make the pad smells of rotten eggs, that is, Hydrogen sulfide, which is highly lethal and can potentially kill the worms.

----------


## ciaossu

> Keeping the culture in a dark place with sufficient humidity within the container, along with ample food on the pad, should lure the worms out of hiding.
> 
> Are the pellets promptly consumed? Overfeeding especially with high protein foods like dog and cat kibbles, make the pad smells of rotten eggs, that is, Hydrogen sulfide, which is highly lethal and can potentially kill the worms.


hi, i'm currently facing this issue. as i'm not at home most of the time i can't feed them daily so i always overfeed alittle. however, the smell is getting worse, what's your advise?

----------


## |squee|

Hmm well I just checked them. There are mites in a small cluster at a corner, but there are worms too. And shining a torchlight at the pad doesn't reveal any wriggling movement.

The pellets aren't promptly consumed, in fact the remnants of the original 3 pellets are still there. I will remove them tomorrow in case they are already rotting (there is no smell btw).

I will grab a picture for you guys in the morning.

----------


## Shi Xuan

> hi, i'm currently facing this issue. as i'm not at home most of the time i can't feed them daily so i always overfeed alittle. however, the smell is getting worse, what's your advise?


The smell do puts you off but if the worms are wriggling and growing in numbers, you shouldn't be too worried. If the worms take a long time to finish the food you fed them, cut back. 




> Hmm well I just checked them. There are mites in a small cluster at a corner, but there are worms too. And shining a torchlight at the pad doesn't reveal any wriggling movement.
> 
> The pellets aren't promptly consumed, in fact the remnants of the original 3 pellets are still there. I will remove them tomorrow in case they are already rotting (there is no smell btw).


Harvest/salvage as much worms as possible and start a new culture soon. Seems like the container's ventilation holes weren't well covered to keep off the pests. 

As for the new culture, prick and enlarge the ventilation holes with a needle/toothpick and stuff them with cotton wool. Works for me in warding off unwanted pests. Alternative method would be, micropore tapes to cover up the holes.

----------


## stormhawk

Remove the old food, dunk the pads in water to expel the mites. Kill any you see. I believe the food has been contaminated and the mites are causing some problems for the worms. If they are not moving then it is like what Shi Xuan said, the build up of hydrogen sulphide aka "pong".

----------


## |squee|

How long should I dunk them for? The worms (if any) in the pads survive the dunking right?

Here are some pics, just took them.

----------


## stormhawk

The food is rotten, remove immediately. Dog kibble should not look like that. No wonder your worms are not doing well. Mites + mold = bad for their health. The scrubber pad should be sitting squarely in the middle without touching the sides of the container, otherwise the worms will crawl up the walls and out of the ventilation hole if the conditions are nasty.

Do the pads feel oily to touch? Some types of scrubber pads are made from material that is not conducive for the long term well being of these worms, especially those that contain some chemicals that may leach out and kill the worms. 

There should be a water bath present in their tubs, or you run the risk of the culture drying out. Too much water and the worms end up drowning.

----------


## Shi Xuan

> How long should I dunk them for? The worms (if any) in the pads survive the dunking right?


Your best bet is a new culture. It's a waste of effort and time salvaging a culture that is going downhill. Get a few cheap greenish Scotch brite/NTUC scrubber pads and a large plastic takeaway container or you can get the 3L plastic container from IKEA which comes with a lid (saves for the hole punching). These are the ones I use for higher yields. 

If you are using the plastic takeaway containers, punch 4 holes with a needle/toothpick, with one hole per side. Then, stuff them with cotton wools or paste over with Micropore tape. Boil and wash the scrubber pads and stack them up in the container (3-4 stacks). The water bath shouldn't be too high, 1cm is enough. The bath serves to provide some humidity within the container, so that the culture will not dry out. If it's too dry, you won't see any worms on the surface, instead, they will retreat to areas in the pads that's moister. Once this is done, add the surviving worms you salvage from the existing culture to the new pads and feed them very lightly. 

It takes approximately a month or more, depending on the size of the culture but once the pads are colonized, it should provide you with a constant supply of worms. :Grin:

----------


## |squee|

Thanks for the advice guys. Here's what I did.

I took away the first layer (yellow) and found most of the surviving worms on the second layer. They were much easier to see as the second layer was blue. I suppose there wouldn't be any worms in the 3rd and fourth layer (submerged) so I washed everything except the second layer and set up a new box.

2 pads, water level is up to the bottommost pad. I cut them like stormhawk suggested, but then later on it didn't matter as I'm going to get a proper new container for them in the evening (the previous black one broke)


Then I placed the pad with the worms on top, placed one pellet on the pad and put the transparent plastic sheet over it. Correct?



I know I need one more pad underneath the blue one, will buy that later.  :Razz: . So right now there's only 3 pads, with water level soaking the bottommost pad.

----------


## |squee|

> Do the pads feel oily to touch? Some types of scrubber pads are made from material that is not conducive for the long term well being of these worms, especially those that contain some chemicals that may leach out and kill the worms.


Nope the pads don't feel oily. They are the same ones the seller were using for his own cultures so they should be fine.

----------


## Shi Xuan

The pads can be placed parallel to one another, it doesn't have to be placed perpendicularly. The reason for the pads to be stacked this way, is to maximize space, so that the second layer can be a refuge for the worms, thereby, exposing only the top layer. 

Your culture looks colorful though :Laughing: , mine's two huge disgusting, dirty green pads sitting in a dirty water bath, inside a 3L plastic container, and seems to have a life of it's own... :Opps:  

Anyway, I think it's time for me to ramp up the cultures once fish breeding goes into full swing. :Smile:

----------


## ciaossu

hey i think 1 dog pellet is too much for the worm already considering the size of your culture now. maybe you can feed about 1/8 of the dog pellet and see how it goes.

----------


## |squee|

Haha Shi Xuan, I just placed it that way, the perpednicular placing wasn't on purpose  :Grin:  And the colourfulness was not intended too... just so happened the pads given to me were these.  :Grin: 

ciaossu, true that. I just took out 3/4 of the pellet!

I can see less worms now though... Hopefully they're just embedded in the pad.  :Confused:

----------


## stormhawk

Even nearly crashed cultures can be salvaged. It's good that you made a new box for them. Don't place the pads in alternate perpendicular fashion, or the worms will find a way to escape up the sides. Also, it would be best to use the same material throughout the culture. Different color pads may seem funky.

To me, a dirty pad = a healthy pad. Too clean and they seldom have worms in them.

Dog pellet should only be given to an established cultures. Since you are basically restarting the culture, use moist oatmeal. I usually crush the oatmeal with my fingers and scatter it sparingly over the top pad. Good quality oatmeal like Quaker Oats is best. Besides, you can use the oats for microworms and similar nematodes. Other types of food tend not give as much of a boost. I only feed high protein food prior to using the worms to feed the fish, otherwise they only get Quaker Oats every 2-3 days, depending on how fast they finished the last feeding.

----------


## Shi Xuan

> *Besides, you can use the oats for microworms and similar nematodes.*


Speaking of oatmeal for nematode cultures, moistened white bread slice is a good substitution. Hassle free and result is as fantastic.

----------


## RonWill

Shi Xuan, now that you learned a new tip that works a treat, the next loaf is on you!! I'm experimenting to see if it does the same for grindals!  :Grin:

----------


## Shi Xuan

Won't it be a hassle for grindals? I mean there's synthetic pads which is almost zero maintenance except for the water change and daily feeding? Perhaps, you can shed more light here since we are on topic. :Wink:

----------


## RonWill

erhm!! I think you need to backtrack to whom first started grindals on synthetic media instead of the traditional peat mix. By experiment, I meant feeding grindals with bread but somehow, results have not been satisfactory.

Speaking of which, I can't, for the life of me, find the page/thread where I adopted RJ's (from Killietalk) methology. Danged... I know it's on Angelfire somewhere...

----------


## stormhawk

Ron, on another note, I still can't find the black box for the worms.  :Sad: 

They have nearly opaque boxes but of a milky white color like those typical Toyogo boxes. Not exactly the most conducive home for the worms. I can't even find a green colored box of a reasonable size.

----------


## fisherw

> erhm!! I think you need to backtrack to whom first started grindals on synthetic media instead of the traditional peat mix. By experiment, I meant feeding grindals with bread but somehow, results have not been satisfactory.
> 
> Speaking of which, I can't, for the life of me, find the page/thread where I adopted RJ's (from Killietalk) methology. Danged... I know it's on Angelfire somewhere...


Do you mean this:

http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fi...ultureNEW.html

----------


## Trichopsis

I did see black opaque plastic storage boxes at Daiso.

----------


## Shi Xuan

> Speaking of which, I can't, for the life of me, find the page/thread where I adopted RJ's (from Killietalk) methology. Danged... I know it's on Angelfire somewhere...


Are these the ones you're talking about?
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fi...ultureNEW.html
http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/mo.../msg00101.html
 :Wink:

----------


## RonWill

Thanks a bunch!! Yep, those were the ones I was talking about and to think that I tinkered with these damn bugs for almost 10yrs (and still not reaping results by leaps and bounds) is really starting to irk me. No wonder I'm still a broke bloke!!  :Grin:

----------


## stormhawk

I was at Daiso IMM, did not find the boxes I wanted. Which Daiso did you spot these Pseudo?

----------


## |squee|

Woke up to a pleasant surprise this morning. BTW, those links are informative!

----------


## Trichopsis

stormhawk: Saw them at the Vivocity outlet.

----------


## stormhawk

:Surprised:  That's it, I'm going to Vivocity tomorrow. Did you remember how big the boxes were?

----------


## Trichopsis

Stormhawk: IIRC, there was a range of sizes, but the largest was I believe the size of a shoebox. I was actually interested in getting one to store all my bottles of supplements/medications/test kits.

----------


## stormhawk

Shoe box size, I actually need something larger but I might take a look. Does it come with a lid?

----------


## Trichopsis

Stormhawk: Yes there's a lid, it's like those Toyogo plastic boxes, with a plastic catch on both ends to lock the lid in place.

----------


## stormhawk

Sounds interesting. The problem with some of these boxes is that the plastic has warped and they form a gap from which pests can enter the culture. The warp on the lid and on the lip of the container makes for an ill fit, even with the side clamps in place.

----------


## Trichopsis

Stormhawk: I was at Vivocity Daiso earlier on, and went to look at the black boxes I mentioned. Turns out that they come in only one size, 167 (height) x 285 (length) x 130 (breadth) mm. I guess they're a bit too small for your needs.

There were other large dark brown containers, which I didn't look at closely. These appear to be your typical giant tupperware boxes with the soft and flexible translucent white plastic lid.

----------


## stormhawk

The black box isn't actually too small for my needs, but I would have preferred a box with a bigger surface area. I'll have a look myself when I go down to Vivocity next. I need a small vermiculture box made out of plastic.

----------


## Nicky

With the guidance provided here I have 2 exploding population going that really keep my closed to 100pcs of fishes very happy. There are these small dots appearing on the plastic sheet on the top pad. What are those? Some of these dots went along with the worm into the tank and most did not get not consumed by the fishes. 

Also.. When I followed the method of having some water at the bottom, I see many dead worms (drown I think) everyday. 
I have now stopped having any water layer in the tub and the worms crawl all over the place. But that allows me to take out the pads daily, and rinse the container full of crawling worms in my tank, that how I'm doing it, and on weekends I can do it 2-3x daily !

----------


## Shi Xuan

Hi Nicky,

Nice to know that you have some grindal cultures too! :Smile:  As for the "dots", it might be some pest infestation or something, maybe mites. I think it shouldn't be a big problem from what you described as "exploding cultures". If their presence perturbs you, soak the pads in water to see if it helps. 

Water bath not only provides humidity (the worms love it :Wink: ) but to confine the worms to the pads. Without the water, it's like some zoo animals being let loose. On the other hand, it works without the bath though, provided that the pads are kept moist and you need to have all the gaps sealed to prevent them from escaping... reminds of the 2001 movie, evolution. :Grin:

----------


## stormhawk

The dots are not mites. They are the egg cases of the grindal worms. I would rather scoop the worms off the feeding plate with a small spatula or a clean paintbrush with a fine tip and rinse them separately. That way, no food gets into the tanks. If the worms are running into the water bath and drowning, they are either overpopulating the media, or seek fresh air, which means the culture box is not properly vented.

Its good to hear that your cultures are doing great Nicky.  :Wink:

----------


## |squee|

> Also.. When I followed the method of having some water at the bottom, I see many dead worms (drown I think) everyday.


I've also observed that. Can anyone tell me if they are really drowning or its just skin castings or something?

----------


## stormhawk

If you see them wriggling or crawling in the water bath, they are drowning or already dead. Grindal worms can survive in water for a day or two but will eventually die.

----------


## |squee|

I don't see them wriggling or crawling in the water, but I do see tiny white tubes, like the worms got chopped up and the parts were left in the water.

----------


## stormhawk

Probably the skin casts like you said.

----------


## Shi Xuan

It's worm eggs...for one moment, I misread what Nicky wrote as the white dots moving around. :Knockout:  :Laughing:

----------


## stormhawk

The egg cases are very distinct, one or more white oval shaped "things" in a slime case. Only mites I find every now and then are furry ones that are present in other parts of my house, but not at the fish tanks for some reason.

----------


## |squee|

Well it's been a week and they're doing well thanks to the help of you guys!

Do I need to clean off the "remains" of the food though?

----------


## stormhawk

Don't have to clean it off, unless it turns moldy. Sometimes I just wash my feeding plate but that's about it.

----------


## Shi Xuan

If you use a piece of plastic or something to cover over the worms, the food tends to get stuck to the surface. I would usually wash it away when I need the worms and add a few more fresh pellets to the pad.

----------


## SirBest

Was just wondering where am I able to get my hands on such worms if anyone has some to spare me to kick start my own culture of crawlies?

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## Shi Xuan

I have some grindal worms at the moment but these are old cultures. I have some problems starting up new ones lately and I don't know why. You can look up the forum for this guy called Marco. I got the worms from him a few years back. I think he should still be keeping them. 

If you want a PDF for a synthetic cultured one, I can send it to you. Just let me know your email if you are interested. That is the best I can help.  :Smile:

----------


## RonWill

Danged... just when I needed one too, everybody else seems to be experiencing hiccups with their cultures. Let's blame it on the heatwave...

----------


## SirBest

> Danged... just when I needed one too, everybody else seems to be experiencing hiccups with their cultures. Let's blame it on the heatwave...


If thats the case, I would reckon that once I managed to get my hands on the starter culture, I would store one in the comforts of my office as the air conditioning is never off. Thanks for the advice, Ronnie.

----------


## Zenith82

Sorry to hijack this thread stormhawk bro, would like to ask anyone know where i can buy live earthworms?

----------


## Shi Xuan

I think you can post your question on Green Culture Singapore forum;

http://www.greenculturesg.com/forum/

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## Shi Xuan

Just curious, how many of you are still keeping grindal worms? I sold a few cultures but have not heard from anyone about them. Currently, they are excellent substitute for tubifex worms when I don't have the time or lazy to make a trip down to C328.

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## Luthfi

Hi all! I am very interested (and need) this grindal worms but could not find local source for it. So anyone can help me with starter of this magnificent worms?  :Smile:

----------


## stormhawk

Sorry my culture of grindalworms has long crashed due to a fly infestation.

----------


## Shi Xuan

Yes, I still have them.  :Smile:  I can help you sub-culture a new one but that will take quite a while.

----------


## Luthfi

> Sorry my culture of grindalworms has long crashed due to a fly infestation.


That's too bad! Thanks anyway.





> Yes, I still have them.  I can help you sub-culture a new one but that will take quite a while.


Now this is great news! I will wait for it. About a week or two? Please PM me for shipment cost (I believe I currently can not send private message). I can send paypal. Thanks again, Shi Xuan!

----------


## Shi Xuan

Hi,

It was really late when I posted the earlier post. I didn't look carefully and thought you're a local. I'm very sorry but I don't think I'm able to send it by post or even know how to do so. Aquabid should be your only choice. I've seen starter cultures there on a regular basis.

----------


## stormhawk

Hi Luthfi,

Perhaps it would be best if you could come to Singapore.  :Laughing:  There are several types of live food cultures available here, that you can bring back to Medan. We are not allowed to ship live "animals" through the postal services. I think my vinegar eels should still be alive. Got 2 bottles of them that I neglected but I see several eels wriggling around.

----------


## Shi Xuan

Yup, vinegar eels are more hardy and prolific than the usual worms. I recall a German fish breeder, who neglected his culture for 1.5 yrs and there was once when his apartment got really hot but when he checked on them, they're still the same as ever. 

It's almost maintenance free, except that you'll need to top up evaporated water in the culture every now and then. 
JY, do you need grindals? I'll try to start another culture.

----------


## RonWill

Guys, restart/re-sub whatever cultures you have in hand. I may need them shortly.

----------


## Shi Xuan

> Guys, restart/re-sub whatever cultures you have in hand. I may need them shortly.


Grindals? I doubt you need the VE culture. Saw a bottle of it at GC's old premise back at Clementi. No more microworms or other tiny nematodes. It's a pain maintaining too many of them. 

As for the Grindals, Friskies cat kibbles work like magic. I've been getting "worms explosion" ever since. Sometimes, however, I have to starve the worms or else the cultures might crash. Basically, it's the same as re-subbing the cultures and it worked just fine. On top of that, a regular change of water is all that is needed to keep a steady supply of worms for the hungry mouths. This is especially important when the cultures start gettin' that putrid smell.

I hope this is helpful.

----------


## RonWill

GC unker lost many of his cultures during the move, so yeah, he's trying to get some going again... and it really doesn't matter which type.

See if you can get 4 to 6 grindal cultures going and pack in/wrap up some pussy bites as well. He'll be needing it and I'll sort things out with you when we next meet.

----------


## Luthfi

> Hi,
> 
> It was really late when I posted the earlier post. I didn't look carefully and thought you're a local. I'm very sorry but I don't think I'm able to send it by post or even know how to do so. Aquabid should be your only choice. I've seen starter cultures there on a regular basis.


Hi, it's okay. No problem. Thanks anyway. I have tried aquabid but the transit was too long, none of the worms survived.




> Hi Luthfi,
> 
> Perhaps it would be best if you could come to Singapore.  There are several types of live food cultures available here, that you can bring back to Medan. We are not allowed to ship live "animals" through the postal services. I think my vinegar eels should still be alive. Got 2 bottles of them that I neglected but I see several eels wriggling around.


Lol! I definitely will look for grindal next time I visit singapore. But not in near future, though  :Sad:

----------


## Shi Xuan

> GC unker lost many of his cultures during the move, so yeah, he's trying to get some going again... and it really doesn't matter which type.
> 
> See if you can get 4 to 6 grindal cultures going and pack in/wrap up some pussy bites as well. He'll be needing it and I'll sort things out with you when we next meet.


Yeah, sure. I'll try to get a few cultures ready for the GC unker but no promise anytime soon. Schedule's bit tight lately.

----------


## Jay91

Is the worm good for feeding the fishes? like those really small fishes? sorry bro~ some stupid question. kinda new here.

----------


## RonWill

> ...some stupid question. kinda new here.


 Uncle Google always welcome newcomers' quests. He even has answers for an old fogey like me!  :Grin: 

Try the following text search; grindal cultures, live-food cultures, fish-food cultures, etc. You'll learn more about grindals and other small organisms that will suit different sized mouths, from new free-swimming fry to juvenile to adults.

PS: A newly hatched or baby fish is called 'fry'. Plural for 'fry' is still 'fry'. 'Fries' is what you find at MacDonalds or other eateries serving fish fries!!!  :Grin:

----------


## biolink

Anyone has culture to share?

Thanks

----------


## gregyeoh

I'm looking for a grindal culture starter too! Anyone can spare some?

----------


## stormhawk

As the thread starter, sorry to say, all my live cultures are gone. My main grindal culture had a pest infestation, wasn't mites but something else. I tried to reseed a new culture but that one wilted during one of the heat spells we get every now and then. A starter I sent to my friend in Penang also went kaput, but there are people in Malaysia who still have them. I have no idea who still keeps these locally but good luck in your search. Worst comes to worst, just order them in yourself from eBay or Aquabid. 

Note, as with all overseas purchases, I am not liable nor responsible if they get seized at customs or die en route, if you take up my suggestion. It's well worth the try though, just don't get upset if they don't make it.

----------


## Shi Xuan

Sorry for the late reply and yes, I still have grindals' but I haven't started a new one lately. You could ask a local forumner, Eric Yeo, to see if he still has any.

----------


## joehcp

Dear Shi Xuan, are you able to let me have some starter culture? If need be I can purchase from you. Thanks.

----------


## Shi Xuan

Hi Joehcp,

I'm sorry to say that I'm no longer keeping any grindal worms. I neglected them for quite some time and were quickly infested with ants....

----------


## Guest

Any one here still have a culture of grindal worms for me to start my own as I am breeding guppies and I want to put them on this diet; less hassle for me. Thanks

----------


## stormhawk

Hello there Guest, sad to say, most of the grindal cultures we used to keep are no longer alive. There should be some sellers in the Marketplace section who might be able to sell you a starter culture.

----------


## Guest

> Hello there Guest, sad to say, most of the grindal cultures we used to keep are no longer alive. There should be some sellers in the Marketplace section who might be able to sell you a starter culture.


 Able to hook me up with the sellers that you are referring to?

----------


## stormhawk

Use the search function for the Marketplace and you will get some sales threads by people who might have grindals for sale. I cannot hook you up because I don't remember who exactly has them. Good luck in your grindal hunt.

----------


## Guest

> Use the search function for the Marketplace and you will get some sales threads by people who might have grindals for sale. I cannot hook you up because I don't remember who exactly has them. Good luck in your grindal hunt.


So far my search is fruitless, whoever still have a culture of them running can let me know. Only need a small culture.

----------


## stormhawk

If you can't get them locally, try overseas. You can find them for sale on eBay or Aquabid. The question is whether they will survive the shipping period from whichever country you are ordering from. I once ordered in a batch of microworm, bananaworm, walterworm and vinegar eels from a seller in Canada, the pack arrived in decent shape and all the worms were wriggling happily in their ziploc bags after roughly 1.5 weeks in transit. One of the bags leaked but I successfully made subcultures from these. Nonetheless I lost all 4 cultures through neglect. This may not apply to grindalworms though, because they dislike extremely warm weather.

----------


## Berny

there is someone selling worms in Singapore, you just have to Google it. I've found 1 person only so far.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

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## Guest

That one source said that his worms are all contaminated so he is out of it too.

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## faithful

> So far my search is fruitless, whoever still have a culture of them running can let me know. Only need a small culture.


Hi!

I currently have 2 cultures. One was only started a couple of weeks ago as I now feel confident with my main culture and would like to continue using them. As of now, it has yet to blossom in my opinion so I probably need to try to find the best way to sub-culture Grindal Worms. 

I would share it with you once it is stable enough; the culture has a rather foul smell (not present in my main culture), though the worms are well and kicking! 

If you can't wait, you may want to look up HappyGuppies here. He sold me my starter culture and offered a lot of precious advice that helped my main culture prosper in barely 2 months under the hands of a first timer!

----------


## stormhawk

It is fairly easy to culture these minus the smell, the problem here is the heat and mite infestation.

----------


## Guest

> Hi!
> 
> I currently have 2 cultures. One was only started a couple of weeks ago as I now feel confident with my main culture and would like to continue using them. As of now, it has yet to blossom in my opinion so I probably need to try to find the best way to sub-culture Grindal Worms. 
> 
> I would share it with you once it is stable enough; the culture has a rather foul smell (not present in my main culture), though the worms are well and kicking! 
> 
> If you can't wait, you may want to look up HappyGuppies here. He sold me my starter culture and offered a lot of precious advice that helped my main culture prosper in barely 2 months under the hands of a first timer!


I contacted him and he told me that all his cultures has been infested. Maybe you can sell me a sub culuture of yiurs

----------


## faithful

Hey,

My current sub-culture doesn't smell anymore, and has a good population of worms in there. Maybe 1-2 more weeks of daily feedings before you can start harvesting them every 2-3 days? Perhaps you can PM me about this?




> It is fairly easy to culture these minus the smell, the problem here is the heat and mite infestation.


I removed the water bath I had in my sub-culture (my main culture's lowest sponge spans the entire tub so there's no "water bath"), and the smell went away. Suppose the smell came from drowning worms. 

Anyway, heat doesn't seem to be a problem for me as my main culture is still producing a fair amount - I can harvest and feed almost every night, provided that I didn't forget to feed them. However, mite/springtail infestation seem to be an issue as I always have these moving white dots near the food (oatmeal/kitten kibbles). I understand though that with a strong population, the mites/springtails would find it hard to overwhelm the culture and would eventually die off.

Have any of the more experienced Grindal Worm keepers find out a way to keep these mites/springtails away, or even rid them from established cultures? I have taped Micropore over all my openings and still I find some uninvited guests...

----------


## RonWill

Micropore is about the best one can use to minimize mite infestation and the only sure way to prevent such, is diligence, in ensuring the general area (where cultures are stored) are clean.

Be watchful for damaged/torn Micropore or pinholes caused by other bugs. Storing cultures in air-conditioned environment seems to reduce mite related issues.

My own culture was barely surviving from neglect and I've have done away with the water bath as well (now just a very very moist base). Re-subbed and going back to damp cocopeat (microwaved and bench-cooled) as culturing medium. I was, and still am, a believer in synthetic media and am convinced that drowning worms is due to poor oxygenation in the culturing boxes.

For those who feel that raising and culturing livefood for fry is a hassle, and IT IS, one is better off with either feeding powdered pellets instead or simply doing away with the notion of breeding fishes.

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## RonWill

> However, mite/springtail infestation seem to be an issue as I always have these moving white dots near the food (oatmeal/kitten kibbles)


 It's very easy to overlook that a culture is only as 'clean' as the food it's been fed. Simply put, we might unintentionally be introducing those little 'white dots'.

If you have access to a microscope, inspect those kibbles and you might be surprised by what you see. Now, imagine opening a can of long-expired food...

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## kentawan

Hi all,

I am feeding my adult _Nothobranchius furzeri_ and _N.korthause_ *only* on Hikari frozen bloodworms. So far I have collected a few hundred eggs. 

Do you think this is enough? Should I supplement them with live brine shrimps to enhance the egg quality?

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## Shi Xuan

It's good to supplement fishes, especially breeding ones, on a varied diet if possible. Besides frozen Hikari bloodworms and live brine shrimps, you can also feed them daphnia. Frozen beef heart is good too.

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## kenshi64

If I manage to raise my fry to adulthood  :Wink:  I wanted to use these, but like with other live food I'm really worried about stink, I've kept micro worms and then I don't mind, so are grindals comparable? The micro worms hardly smelled, until I hadn't changed their media in too long. Thank you!

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## RonWill

All livefood cultures will stink at some point. If the stench bothers you, then don't bother.

Cultures are not self-sustaining, will require feeding, regular maintenance and re-subs (lest the main culture crashes). Despite how easy it may all appear on youtube, it's still lots of work.

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## kenshi64

Jeez, it appear as if you're cracking down on me in particular! If you read my post again I said I have kept microworms and I did keep culturing and changing the sludge etc for quite sometime without any bother!  :Smile:  Not really a noob! I'm talking about not wanting something like bloodworms :# that's a nightmarish stink they develop. 

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## RonWill

Not singling out anyone in particular but a general shout-out to those who are considering livefood cultures.

Microworm cultures are amongst the easiest (after vinegar eels) to start off and maintain but these will eventually smell like burnt rubber (or worse) if it's allowed to deteriorate to that state.

Also, there seems to be a misconception that cultured livefood are "less hassle" and/or can be used as a one-size-fit-all main diet for raising fry, which shouldn't be the case.

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## stormhawk

Late response but the only way to keep out the bugs, unwanted or otherwise, is to use a container with a tight fitting lid (air-tight containers with a rubber seal would be best) and then Micropore. The Micropore part HAS to be inspected regularly, as ants are capable of making holes in it if they want to, along with other bugs. I found a line of ants that bored their way through the Micropore and invaded my microworm culture. Soon after, there were little fly maggots in there, likely fruit flies.

Grindalworm cultures on synthetic media, like coarse foam, will not smell so much, however, once you open the lid you will get a whiff of it, which should not bother anyone used to feeding their fish with dry foods.

Microworms need a well-ventilated container, otherwise it will start to smell like really strong beer. Often the culture crashes not through neglect, but because of the buildup of CO2 within the container, especially with super tiny holes poked in for ventilation. I usually cut out a small piece of the plastic lid, roughly 0.5 cm x 0.5 cm, up to 1 cm x 1 cm, then taped over 3 times with Micropore or some other breathable material. The problem with microworms, is that they explode way too fast in the local tropical weather. A single container will be crawling with worms all the way up to the lid, and a single swipe of the worms is enough to feed ALOT of fry, from a single plastic take-away tub. Impractical for those who have only a few fry to raise, so vinegar eels would be the best option.

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