# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk > Aquatic Moss Club >  Mosses and the men who love them (our meeting with Dr Tan)

## timebomb

Hi, folks,

Before you read on, be prepared for a few surprises. As I said in my last post - What we thought we knew, we were way off the mark. What we didn't know; the answers were staring at us all the time.

First surprise - Java Moss which we all (or maybe it was only me) thought the identity was never in doubt - In publications everywhere and all over the internet, the scientific name of Java Moss has always been _Vesicularia dubyana_. Right? Well, we were all wrong. Java Moss, according to Dr Tan is a species of _Taxiphyllum_. That's the genus name and for a very strange reason which I will go into details later, Dr Tan cannot confirm the species name. Here's a pic of Java Moss:



Second surprise - Taiwan Moss and Christmas Moss are mosses that belong to different genera. In other words, although they look like they are the same plant, they actually belong to different groups. You may be surprised, just as I was, that as far as identifying mosses are concerned, looks count for little. The way Dr Tan goes about identifying the mosses, heck, he doesn't even pay attention to the shapes of the fronds. How they grow in our tanks, whether upright or hanging down, count for even less. Dr Tan goes deep down into the cellular level; he looks at the structure of the cells under a powerful microscope. The sizes and shapes of the cells are an indication of genus. To confirm the species, he has to look at the spores. We (Gan Cheong Weei, Kim Cheng, Choy Heng Wah and I) had a wonderful time peering into Dr Tan's microscopes. They opened up a whole new world for us. We saw things like rhizoids (mosses' roots), sexual organs, cells and things like double costa (midriff of mosses). Here are pics of the Taiwan and Christmas Moss:





Third surprise - Erect Moss which we all thought were very different from Christmas as it grows up instead of down. Well, it belongs to the same genus as Christmas and here's the shocker - the genus is _Vesicularia_!! If you are surprised, you can imagine how I felt when Dr Tan informed us about that. To know now that Christmas and Erect moss are species of _Vesicularia_ and to find out that what we thought (Java Moss) to be _Vesicularia dubyana_ was actually another plant instead, heck, I'm still reeling in shock over all this.  :Shocked:   :Shocked:  I can't reveal the species names of the Christmas and Erect here because Dr Tan said he cannot confirmed them yet. Here's a pic of the Erect Moss:



Fourth surprise - Willow Moss, scientific name _Fontinalis antipyretica_. No mixed-up about the common and scientific name of this plant but what we thought to be Willow Moss is actually Java Moss in disguise  :Laughing:  I brought some for Dr Tan to examine and he said what I had were Java Moss. I'm inclined to believe that many of the so-called Willow Mosses sold in some fish shops in Singapore are also actually Java Mosses. Dr Tan said Willow Moss is not native to the regions around here. 

Fifth surprise - There's a species of _Vesicularia_ growing all over the place in Singapore. I found some at the foot of Telok Blangah Hill Park. Here's a pic:



I won't reveal the name of this _Vesicularia_ as the species name isn't confirmed but all species of _Vesicularia_, of which there are 4, are, according to Dr Tan, semi-aquatic mosses. In other words, they can be grown submersed in our tanks. Is this great news or what!!! I would encourage all of you to look harder at the grass patches around your housing estates. Theres a very good chance you can find this moss everywhere. Find them and grow some in your tank but be mindful not to destroy the habitats where they are found. Take only what is necessary and please ensure theres enough of them left for the moss to propagate. 

Speaking of propagation, I will explain why Dr Tan cannot confirm the species name of the _Taxiphyllum sp_, the moss formerly known as _Vesicularia dubyana_. (You know, for some strange reason, I got helluva kick when I typed that last phrase  :Laughing: ). Please take note that my explanation may be somewhat fuzzy as Im just regurgitating what Dr Tan told us. 

Mosses can reproduce themselves sexually. They have male and female sexual organs which cannot be seen by the naked eye but are very distinct under a microscope. Male organs release sperm cells which find their way into the female organs and fertilise the eggs inside. Once fertilized, the female organ transforms into a thing called a capsule. If you have many capsules growing in your mosses, it would mean there's a lot of wild sex taking place in your tank.  :Laughing:  Heres a pic of 2 Christmas Moss capsules:



The one on the left shows a complete capsule. The one on the right is a capsule that has released its spores. Spores are like seeds. Wherever they land, new mosses will grow. In their natural habitats, winds carry the spores of terrestial mosses. Under water, the current carries the spores of aquatic mosses down the streams where they live. Don't ask me why we don't see Christmas mosses sprouting all over our tanks but I have some mosses growing from the corners of my fish tank and I can tell you sure as hell I didn't plant any moss there. Here's how they look growing on the silicon:



For some strange reason which even Dr Tan couldnt explain, all the Java Mosses found locally do not produce capsules. It could be something to do with the chemistry of our water but Dr Tan isnt sure. To confirm the species name, Dr Tan has to be able to see the spores. Without capsules, there are no spores. Theres a species of Java Moss from Vietnam that produces capsules but unfortunately, Dr Tan didnt have a live specimen. He suspects that the Java Moss from Vietnam is the same as those found locally but without spores, this cannot be confirmed. 

Im appealing to all of you, on Dr Tans behalf, to take a close look at the Java Mosses in your tanks. If you find even just one capsule, it would be worth a great deal to scientific research. Let me know and I will be at your house as soon as I can to pick up that capsule for Dr Tan. But please make sure its from Java Moss and not any other mosses. I personally have grown Java Moss for many years but have never seen a capsule among them before. It could be the capsules will only appear when Java Mosses are grown emersed or when they are dosed with hormones. Neither Dr Tan nor I are sure about this but grow them emersed, submersed, whatever-mersed; dose them with fertilizers or hormones; pee into the tank if you have to  :Laughing: , if you can produce one capsule from your Java Moss, you could very well become famous overnight. Your name may go down in the annals of scientific research  :Laughing:  

On my way home from Dr Tans lab, I stopped at 2 fish shops to buy more mosses. Here are the pics: 





The fish shop owners whom I bought the above mosses from said they were Willow Moss and Taiwan Moss respectively. I'm quite sure they are, as we were, wrong about the names. I'll be sending these mosses to Dr Tan for proper identification later. 

Dr Tan is just as fascinated of our love of aquatic mosses as we are intrigued about their scientific names. The more mosses we can give to him, the better we will understand these lovely plants. If you have some special moss in your tank with scientific name unknown, I appeal to you to send some to me and I will give it to Dr Tan. In exchange, I will give you the mosses (Christmas, Erect and Java) I have in my tanks. Thank you.

In closing, I would like to thank Gan Cheong Weei for setting up the meeting with Dr Benito Tan. If it had not been for Gan, we would never have met the expert.

Loh K L

Part II -->>

----------


## Green Baron

Thanks KL for the detailed account of our meeting with Dr Tan and explanation and photos of the various mosses. It was really fascinating to look at the various mosses under microscope, especially with Dr Tan pointing out the unique characteristics of each moss and why they belong to certain genus. What I learnt today is that it is unreliable to ID mosses without a powerful microscope !

We will be working closely with Dr Tan to identify the various aquatic mosses and clear once and for all the confusion over their common and scientific name. So if you see capsules on your Java moss or have mosses that look different from those in the above article, please contact us.

Gan

----------


## TS168

Thanks for the effort of Mr Loh , Dr Tan and the team who meet up DR Tan.

I do believe christmas moss also have at least 2 variant. One is the small leave type and the other the longer frond type. 
I did came across a plant book at a LFS and it state the orgin of christmas moss from mexico.

Am looking forward for more information on this topic. As it a very interesting due to the many variant that we have came across.

Cheers.

----------


## hwchoy

Prof Tan for you, timebomb  :Opps:  

Teck Song, you mean the book specifically states "Christmas Moss"? Well you might know that name is manufactured by none other than Kwek Leong, and while we didn't know it then, we now know that the Christmas moss is a _Vesicularia_ sp. which is a tropical genus from this part of the world  :Smile:  Could very well be native to Singapore.

----------


## aquaturbo

This forum is getting very interesting.

After reading the previous posts on finding moss in Singapore, I've done some moss hunting. Finally, find a whole patch of in right under my nose, I mean right under my block. 

So if the following is _Vesicularia_ according to Dr Tan, then definitely it has produced lots of capsule.


The following is a closeup after I washed away the soil.



So if this moss is of any use, let me know.


Tan SW

----------


## hwchoy

we are looking for capsules of Java Moss.

----------


## DJ

> "You may be surprised, just as I was, that as far as identifying mosses are concerned, looks count for little. The way Dr Tan goes about identifying the mosses, heck, he doesn't even pay attention to the shapes of the fronds. How they grow in our tanks, whether upright or hanging down, count for even less. Dr Tan goes deep down into the cellular level; he looks at the structure of the cells under a powerful microscope. The sizes and shapes of the cells are an indication of genus. To confirm the species, he has to look at the spores."


Oh, boy. This is interesting -- but kinda bad! If we don't have a Dr. Tan to look at our moss we just have to tell people "I have some moss in my tank, don't ask me what kind -- you can't tell by looking at it."

I have two different pieces of driftwood with moss on them. One I thought was Christmas Moss and the other Java Moss. To tell the truth, if I didn't know which wood I put which on I could not tell the difference -- they look the same to me. I guess sometimes I think one is a very-slightly-darker-green, maybe.

Well, I guess it's better to look dumb (have no idea what kind of moss I have in my tank) than to act ignorant. :)

So LKL, when is your book about moss coming out?

DJ

----------


## hwchoy

> So LKL, when is your book about moss coming out?
> 
> DJ


actually Prof Tan is writing one  :Smile:

----------


## A.Rashid

Wow KL,

What you wrote and had discovered is really fascinating....so now we all know.... Thank KL and the team and also to Dr Tan...

----------


## Green Baron

According to Prof Tan, there are 4 species of _Vesicularia_ in Singapore; and we have seen three of them, namely Xmas Moss, Erect Moss and what we call HDB/Bk Timah Moss. Even though LFS may have bought Xmas Moss & Erect Moss from Taiwan/Europe, they are however native to the tropics !

A second point Prof Tan mentioned is that semi-aquatic moss such as _Vesicularia sp_ only have sex and produce capsules when they are emersed. That is why we see capsules only in emersed form that we buy from LFS. Once we grown them submersed, they will no longer produce capsules though they will continue to grow. Aquatic moss such as Java Moss however have sex and produce capsules under water.

----------


## Green Baron

> Oh, boy. This is interesting -- but kinda bad! If we don't have a Dr. Tan to look at our moss we just have to tell people "I have some moss in my tank, don't ask me what kind -- you can't tell by looking at it."
> 
> I have two different pieces of driftwood with moss on them. One I thought was Christmas Moss and the other Java Moss. To tell the truth, if I didn't know which wood I put which on I could not tell the difference -- they look the same to me. I guess sometimes I think one is a very-slightly-darker-green, maybe.


While it is true that we need examine them under microsope to be 100% sure of the species, we can however to tell Java Moss from Xmas Moss or Erect Moss with our naked eye.

----------


## timebomb

> A second point Prof Tan mentioned is that semi-aquatic moss such as _Vesicularia sp_ only have sex and produce capsules when they are emersed. That is why we see capsules only in emersed form that we buy from LFS. Once we grown them submersed, they will no longer produce capsules though they will continue to grow. Aquatic moss such as Java Moss however have sex and produce capsules under water.


Cheong Weei,

I'm not sure if that's what Prof Tan said as my memory tend to be fuzzy sometimes but as far as I know, the Christmas Moss which we now know to be a species of _Vesicularia_ will throw up capsules whether they are grown emersed or submersed. Here are 2 pics of the Christmas Moss with many capsules among their fronds. The first picture shows the Moss grown submersed in my main tank as a moss wall and the second picture shows the Moss grown emersed on a piece of driftwood. 






It's obvious from the 2 pictures that when it comes to sex, the Christmas Moss isn't fussy about being in wet or dry conditions  :Laughing: 

As for the Java Moss found locally, Prof Tan said they carry both male and female sexual organs. But for reasons unknown, the female organs abort themselves whenever they are fertilised by the sperm cells from the male organs. Aborted organs cannot transform into capsules. The capsules are the missing link Prof Tan needs to make a positive identification. I examined all the Java Mosses I have this morning but I couldn't find a single capsule among them. Please try looking at those in your tanks. If only someone can come up with a single Java Moss capsule, it will solve another great mystery.

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

> So if this moss is of any use, let me know.


Tan SW,

I think what you found is the species of _Vesicularia_ that's growing everywhere in Singapore. But we now know that appearances can be deceiving so I could very well be wrong again. Just try and grow them submersed in your tanks and if they survive, chances are it's a _Vesicularia_

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

Folks,

What you all may not have noticed in my first post is that the Taiwan Moss remains unidentified. Prof Tan wasn't sure about the genus name of this plant during the meeting. He needs more time to make a positive identification. It may be a problem because the sample I gave him does not carry capsules. So if you have Taiwan Moss with capsules, please let us know about it. Thank you.

Loh K L

----------


## hwchoy

> As for the Java Moss found locally, Prof Tan said they carry both male and female sexual organs. But for reasons unknown, the female organs abort themselves whenever they are fertilised by the sperm cells from the male organs. Aborted organs cannot transform into capsules. The capsules are the missing link Prof Tan needs to make a positive identification. I examined all the Java Mosses I have this morning but I couldn't find a single capsule among them. Please try looking at those in your tanks. If only someone can come up with a single Java Moss capsule, it will solve another great mystery.
> 
> Loh K L


You know  :Idea:  it could simply mean that we have a Java moss (_Taxiphyllum_  spp.) mutant that is infertile, and *ALL* our Java moss are the vegetatively reproduced from that single plant  :Exclamation:   :Exclamation:   :Exclamation:   :Shocked:

----------


## timebomb

> You know  it could simply mean that we have a Java moss (_Taxiphyllum_  spp.) mutant that is infertile, and *ALL* our Java moss are the vegetatively reproduced from that single plant


Heng Wah,

You know, if that is proven true, it will be a sad day for all Singaporeans. As it is, we have a reputation for not being very active with our sex lives. To think that our plants don't have sex either. Sigh........

Loh K L

----------


## Green Baron

> Cheong Weei,
> 
> I'm not sure if that's what Prof Tan said as my memory tend to be fuzzy sometimes but as far as I know, the Christmas Moss which we now know to be a species of _Vesicularia_ will throw up capsules whether they are grown emersed or submersed. Here are 2 pics of the Christmas Moss with many capsules among their fronds. The first picture shows the Moss grown submersed in my main tank as a moss wall and the second picture shows the Moss grown emersed on a piece of driftwood.


Interesting, must get Prof Tan to investigate !
I noticed the capsules in my Taiwan moss (from NA) are fom the emersed leaves and submersed leaves don't have any capsules.

----------


## hwchoy

a little backgrounder on the expert we consulted.

----------


## Green Baron

> Folks,
> 
> What you all may not have noticed in my first post is that the Taiwan Moss remains unidentified. Prof Tan wasn't sure about the genus name of this plant during the meeting. He needs more time to make a positive identification. It may be a problem because the sample I gave him does not carry capsules. So if you have Taiwan Moss with capsules, please let us know about it. Thank you.


Also note that the 'Taiwan Moss' in KL's photo is different from the 'Taiwan/Mini Moss' that NA sells. I have the one from NA and will be passing it to Prof Tan this weekend. If any of you have the 'Taiwan/Mini Moss' that Jason sells, pls pass some (preferbly with capsules) to us so that we can have it ID as well.

Gan

Gan

----------


## hwchoy

> Heng Wah,
> 
> You know, if that is proven true, it will be a sad day for all Singaporeans. As it is, we have a reputation for not being very active with our sex lives. To think that our plants don't have sex either. Sigh........
> 
> Loh K L


it's OK, it still managed to proliferate right  :Question:  entirely in keeping with our character. :wink:

----------


## timebomb

> I noticed the capsules in my Taiwan moss (from NA) are fom the emersed leaves and submersed leaves don't have any capsules.


Cheong Weei,

One of the fish shops I stopped by to buy moss yesterday was NA. I didn't want to name it because it can cause embarrassment to the fish shop owner. However, in this instance, I don't really have much choice. In any case, Mr Chan of NA does not have to be embarrassed about anything. He could be wrong about the common names of his moss but then, who weren't? We were all just as dead wrong too about many things.

The reason I'm naming NA in this post is because Mr Chan himself told me personally that the moss I bought from him is Willow Moss and not Taiwan as you stated. It could be Mr Chan made a mistake or you actually got Taiwan Moss from him as you bought your moss earlier. However, I'm inclined to believe that the Moss NA sells is neither Taiwan nor Willow as we know them. What he has, besides some Erect Moss, is probably the species of _Vesicularia_ that can be found everywhere. I say this because the moss Mr Chan sells also come in "mat" form with a layer of soil underneath the moss. This is just my own theory, of course. I hope Mr Chan doesn't sue me  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

----------


## aquaturbo

Bought an interesting 'moss' today.
As the picture below shows, it is emersed growing from the LFS.


There is a display tank of it submersed growing at a planted tank in a shop at Yishun bus interchange.

----------


## hwchoy

are those white stuff roots? if so then it isn't moss, because mosses don't have roots  :Smile:

----------


## alan

> Bought an interesting 'moss' today. There is a display tank of it submersed growing at a planted tank in a shop at Yishun bus interchange.



hiya if possible can you private message me the address of the planted shop to me ? or maybe give me direction on how to reach it when im at the intercharge thank , that white stuff does seem to be like root, if it a root and it still moss ... we better sent to the prof to check it  :Very Happy:

----------


## hwchoy

> that white stuff does seem to be like root, if it a root and it still moss ... we better sent to the prof to check it


if it is roots then it isn't moss, by definition! :wink:

----------


## kc

KL,



> I'm not sure if that's what Prof Tan said as my memory tend to be fuzzy sometimes but as far as I know, the Christmas Moss which we now know to be a species of Vesicularia will throw up capsules whether they are grown emersed or submersed


Well, Prof Tan did mentioned that they still can propogate underwater as sperm swims.  :Smile:

----------


## kc

Aquaturbo,

The plant that you have is being cultivated at 'Ah Gek' farm in one of Pasir Ris fish farm. I can't remember the name or the address of the farm. It is growing on land in the farm and they tie them into drift wood before sending to the LFS. 
A staff there also cannot name the plant but refer us to a lady call 'Ah Gek' so my friend and I call it 'Ah Gek plant'.





[/quote]

----------


## aquaturbo

Oh, now we have AGP.

The LFS selling is at Yishun Central. The block number should be 932. Somewhere near Aquastar.


Tan SW.

----------


## timebomb

Hi, folks,

This is an appeal to those hobbyists here who live in North America or Europe. If you can send me a sample of the genuine Willow Moss, 
_(Fontinalis antipyretica)_, I would in return send you Erect or Christmas Moss. 

I would have bought this plant from the local fish shops but I suspect none of the so-called Willow Mosses here are the real McKoys. Prof Benito Tan wrote me today. He's working on a scientific paper to identify as many aquatic mosses as he can. He needs our help. I have access to most of the mosses indigenous to this region but I can't find Willow. Please help if you can. Thank you.

Loh K L

----------


## BeyondGomer

Not Willow moss, but I have another one that might be of interest to you. 
 

I have a tiny tiny bit of erect moss, some christmas moss, and another moss that is supposedly xmas moss (looks like java x xmas) and the moss above looks noticably different from the others.

----------


## imported_brbarkey

> This is an appeal to those hobbyists here who live in North America or Europe. If you can send me a sample of the genuine Willow Moss, 
> _(Fontinalis antipyretica)_, I would in return send you Erect or Christmas Moss. 
> 
> 
> Loh K L


Loh K I live in North America and I have in my tank Willow Moss, or atleast thats what I bought. About 2 months ago it was growing well...then my SAE started eating the fronds...Now it doesnt look so great. I am trying to regrow it now and I hope it doesnt take to long...I can still send you some and you can grow it, but it will probably be brown when it arrives...Let me Know...I will send it if you want it now. oh by the way...dont know if this matters but when it was growing well in my tank it did produce thoses spore sacks.

E mail me it should be in my profile


Gomer...I have been reading your post about your "nano moss" its really growing well and looks super cool...makes me what to get a nano tank just for that species....I will give you my first born for some  :Laughing:  


Ben

----------


## Green Baron

> Not Willow moss, but I have another one that might be of interest to you.


Another beautiful moss ! Would be grateful if you can send some to KL for indentification. I am looking forward to a paper by Prof Tan that will finally provide the correct ID for all the mosses we have come to love !

Gan

----------


## BeyondGomer

Here are some pics (I have erect moss, but it is a small bit and not in any of the pictures)

First 3 mosses: Back right is "nano moss". Front right is Xmas moss. Front left is also xmas moss?? (see below re: xmas moss)


Here is a picture of the two "xmas mosses". The one I believe to be xmas moss is the fluffy mound on top. The rest of the moss is "xmas moss" that I got from Ryuken (aquatic bliss)....both have lots of branching when the fronds grow out...but I'm not sure which is which.

----------


## budak

Does Prof. Tan cover other bryophytes like liverworts as well? It might be interesting to have his views on the taxonomic confusion between Pellia and Monosolenium, as well as the normal Riccia fluitans and so-called mini Riccia.

----------


## hwchoy

yes that's another subject being discussed.

----------


## Green Baron

> Does Prof. Tan cover other bryophytes like liverworts as well? It might be interesting to have his views on the taxonomic confusion between Pellia and Monosolenium, as well as the normal Riccia fluitans and so-called mini Riccia.


He does. We have given him 2 species of 'Pellia' to ID.

Gan

----------


## timebomb

> Let me Know...I will send it if you want it now. oh by the way...dont know if this matters but when it was growing well in my tank it did produce thoses spore sacks.


Ben, I will appreciate it very much if you can send me some of your moss as soon as possible. It does not matter that it's brown but it's important that you pack some of the capsules together with the moss when you send it. Here's my address:

Loh Kwek Leong
Block 104 Towner Road
#08-324
Singapore 322104




> Here are some pics


Gomer, it's hard to tell from pictures but I suspect what you have isn't Christmas Moss as we know it. The moss you got from Ryuken looks like Java. I know for a fact that Java Moss branches out like Christmas when it is grown well but their fronds are much bigger. Your Nano-Moss is very interesting and looks like Erect. I have to ask you if Nano is a name given by you or is it a generally accepted common name? 

If you already have Erect and Christmas in your tanks, the only moss I can offer in exchange for some of your Nano is my Taiwan Moss. I didn't include this Moss in my appeal because I have only a little of it. What I have now is a patch, the size of which is smaller than a child's palm. But in the name of scientific research, I will send it to you if you send me some of your Nano. To be completely honest, all the mosses we have seen so far are very beautiful but the Taiwan Moss is the best looking one of all. It costs me quite a fair sum to buy a small patch and I gave half to Prof Tan. I wanted to buy more 2 days ago but the fish shop owner said he wasn't selling as he expects prices to rise soon. 

By the way, Gomer, where did you get your Erect Moss? Was it from Art Giacosa? I put up some Erect Moss for auction on Aquabid.com recently and Art won it with a bid of US $92. I didn't get a cent for it though as all of the proceeds went to the APD Defense Fund. 

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

Here's a pic of a strand of Christmas Moss next to Java. Both have triangular shapes but the Java's frond is much broader.



Loh K L

----------


## TS168

HI Mr Loh and all, 
Since this Taiwan moss come from Taiwan(Maybe that why it is being named). Why not let hope some hobbists from Taiwan or China can came to this forum to check out and trade with you.

If you can read chinese, You might want to visit http://www.51fish.net and try your luck there.

I will be posting on that forum to try and see if any response. Have introduce this website to the hobbist there regarding mosses.

Hope this will help one way or another. Cheers

----------


## BeyondGomer

Mr. Loh,
I sent you an email


You very well may be right on the java/xmas moss. The other xmas moss is definately xmas moss though  :Smile: 

As for the Nano Moss, I have no idea what hte scientific or common name is. I collected this moss myself and it has been growing in my tank for about 2 months.

I got my erect moss (only a few small bits) from "Otherwise" at plantedtank.net

----------


## whoppie

> Aquaturbo,
> 
> The plant that you have is being cultivated at 'Ah Gek' farm in one of Pasir Ris fish farm. I can't remember the name or the address of the farm. It is growing on land in the farm and they tie them into drift wood before sending to the LFS. 
> A staff there also cannot name the plant but refer us to a lady call 'Ah Gek' so my friend and I call it 'Ah Gek plant'.


[/quote]

Its called Capricorn Aquarium and they are also known as 'Ah Pek'.

Saw the plant for sale and he gave a a handful when I bought some malayan shrimps from him.

----------


## DJ

Hi,

All this new information about moss is exciting but frustrating for me since my main interest is in creating a true Amazon biotope -- right now I'm trying to make a tank that only contains plant and fish species that could be found in one location on the Rio Napo in the Peruvian Amazon. I've been searching the web but can't find any info about aquatic moss from there.

Does anybody know of any information you can point me to? Does Dr. Tan have a friend working on that area?

Regards,
DJ

----------


## imported_brbarkey

> Ben, I will appreciate it very much if you can send me some of your moss as soon as possible. It does not matter that it's brown but it's important that you pack some of the capsules together with the moss when you send it. Here's my address:
> 
> Loh Kwek Leong
> Block 104 Towner Road
> #08-324
> Singapore 322104
> 
> 
> Loh K L


Loh K L 

I will send it as soon as possible, but just to let you know it doesnt have any capsules any more. It had the capsules when it was growing well. I will send it to you any way and I hope you can use it...its in bad shape right now, but it will grow. 

Also I have never sent anything overseas before, can you tell me the best way to sent the package. How much will it cost? In your address what does this represent #08-324?

Thanks 

Ben

----------


## Slaigar

This is quite an interesting forum for mosses! I have read(Aquarium Plants, Kasselmann) that Java Moss only has capsules when grown emersed. Does anyone have a good terrarium that they are growing Java Moss currently in? Maybe this easy-to-grow plant needs optimum conditions in order to create capsule.

----------


## hwchoy

mmm but according to the Prof Java moss (_Taxiphyllum_ spp.) are fully aquatic and that specimens from Vietnam are known to produce capsule (or sporophyte) while submersed.

Has anyone actually seen emersed Java moss?

----------


## NongOil

> As for the Nano Moss, I have no idea what hte scientific or common name is. I collected this moss myself and it has been growing in my tank for about 2 months.


Hi Gomer, 

I think what you have is same to me. "Nano moss" is could be same to my "Dwarf Willow Moss". Please see the pictures below. From left to right. "Dwarf Willow Moss" or "Nano Moss", Erect Moss and Christmas Moss. 



Here is it's look like when growing in my tank, similar to Erect Moss but very small one. It's grow straight up to the top with a few branch.




Loh, I have good news for you and Gomer. If he can confirm this moss is same to Nano Moss I can give it to you more easy than him, of course without any postage cost. Because I will ask Gwee to bring it to you when he go back to Singapore on Monday 16. BTW if this moss is not same to Nano Moss, still I will give you. I kept this moss in my tank for more than 5 months. It came to me with brown and not healthy. But after pass 3 months it started to grow new tiny fronds with light green.

----------


## Green Baron

> This is an appeal to those hobbyists here who live in North America or Europe. If you can send me a sample of the genuine Willow Moss, 
> _(Fontinalis antipyretica)_, I would in return send you Erect or Christmas Moss. 
> Loh K L


After all these discussions, I still haven't seen a photo of Willow Moss, _(Fontinalis antipyretica)_. I decided to do a search on Google and this is the result !
Does anyone know which is the real Willow Moss ?

Gan

----------


## timebomb

> Loh, I have good news for you and Gomer.


Oil, that's great news. Gwee Sia Meng is leaving either tonight or tomorrow night for Bangkok. He called me on the phone the other day and I asked him to bring some more of the fish, the unidentified _Boraras sp_ home for me. Nonn knows where this fish is sold. It's somewhere outside Jatujak market. Please call Nonn for directions if you can't find the shop.

As for the Nano-moss you have in your tanks, I would be very delighted if you pass some of it to Sia Meng. I hope Gomer will send some of his too so we can compare if they are the same. The thing that Professor Tan is interested in, besides the mosses' identities, is the commercial value of these plants. He knew only about Java Moss being grown by aquarists before he met us. Most other mosses, if they have commercial values, are used for stuffing pillows.

By the way, guys, if you are wondering why I address Nongoil as Oil when he signed off as "K. Sitthiprasert", that's because Oil is from Thailand and all Thais have nicknames which usually consist of a single-syllable word. 

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

> If you can read chinese, You might want to visit http://www.51fish.net and try your luck there.
> 
> I will be posting on that forum to try and see if any response. Have introduce this website to the hobbist there regarding mosses.


Teck Song, I can read Chinese but my command of this language is not good enough to take part in discussions on public forums. I can read but I can't write. But thanks for recommending this web site to thehobbyists in China and Taiwan. Maybe some of them can write English and will join the forum here. 




> Also I have never sent anything overseas before, can you tell me the best way to sent the package. How much will it cost? In your address what does this represent #08-324?


Ben, I expected someone to ask the question about sending mosses overseas so I showed how I do it in another topic. You can read up about it at:

http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=594

I'm not sure how much it will cost you to send a small envelope of moss but when I send them from Singapore to anywhere in the world, the stamp costs only one Sing dollar. As for the numbers in my address, the hex # symbol represents storey. In other words, I live on the 8th storey of a flat and the unit number of my house is 324. 

Loh K L

----------


## hwchoy

> By the way, guys, if you are wondering why I address Nongoil as Oil when he signed off as "K. Sitthiprasert", that's because Oil is from Thailand and all Thais have nicknames which usually consist of a single-syllable word. 
> 
> Loh K L


why? chinese have such nicknames too (usually prefixed with "Ah") :wink: my nickname is Peet :P

----------


## timebomb

> Does anyone know which is the real Willow Moss ?


That's what I'm trying to find out, Gan. Prof Tan said the Willow Moss isn't indigenous to our region so the genuine McCoy should be in one of the samples our foreign friends are sending and not those found locally.

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

> Does anyone have a good terrarium that they are growing Java Moss currently in?


Mark, 3 days ago, I tore off almost all the Christmas Mosses growning emersed in my terrarium tank and replaced it with Java and Erect Moss. It's still too early to tell if they will throw up capsules but I'm hoping they will. I don't know if my terrarium provides optimal conditions but here's how it looks:



Loh K L

----------


## Green Baron

> Originally Posted by Gan CW
> 
> Does anyone know which is the real Willow Moss ?
> 
> 
> That's what I'm trying to find out, Gan. Prof Tan said the Willow Moss isn't indigenous to our region so the genuine McCoy should be in one of the samples our foreign friends are sending and not those found locally.
> Loh K L


KL,
I am hoping at least we know how it looks like so that we can recognize it when we seen one and not just pass anything that someone claims to be Willow Moss to to Prof Tan. I am curious if it looks more like Java Moss , longer with irregular branches , Christmas/Taiwan Moss with more regular triangular banches or Gomer's 'Nano' Moss with no branching at all.

Gan

----------


## timebomb

> I am hoping at least we know how it looks like so that we can recognize it when we seen one and not just pass anything that someone claims to be Willow Moss to to Prof Tan.


Gan, if we use photographs to identify the Willow Moss, we would just be speculating which wouldn't be very scientific :smile: The best way to identify the real Willow Moss would be to pass all samples to Prof Tan and let him determine which one is _Fontinalis antipyretica_. Once that is known, we will take close-up photographs of the plant and I'll create a web page to show it, together with the other mosses, the common and scientific names. Although photographs can be deceiving, that's probably the best we can do at our level. As hobbyists, very few of us own powerful microscopes and even if we do, it wouldn't be of much use unless we know how the mosses look at the cellular level. 

There's no mixed-up about the scientific name of Willow Moss. What is not known is which is the real McCoy.

Loh K L

----------


## BeyondGomer

NongOil,

Ours could be the same, but I suspect that they are different.

I found an older image that showed decent detail of the moss, but it is clear enough that you can still see a difference in "leaf" structure and spacing. The sizes do look similar though. 
Mine

Yours

----------


## NongOil

> I asked him to bring some more of the fish, the unidentified Boraras sp home for me


I will manage to check with the shop owner today if it available. I know this shop well, very famous shop for wild fish. I will pass it to Gwee for you. I also kept a small group of Boraras sp. in my micro tank on the desk in my office, tiny and cute one  :Smile: . They don't like strong flow and also don't need to use any kind of filter or airation. 




> As for the Nano-moss you have in your tanks, I would be very delighted if you pass some of it to Sia Meng.


No problem, but maybe a few frond because they grow so slow and I have only a few healthy fronds, but so many weak in brown color fronds  :Sad:  . I will pass it to Gwee for you on Sunday.




> Ours could be the same, but I suspect that they are different.


Wow, Gomer, it's also good news. That's mean we have two other kinds of moss for Loh to analyze. So, from now, we better named your moss as "Nano Moss" and mine as "Dwarf Willow Moss" until Dr. Tan descript them later.

----------


## timebomb

Besides all the mosses we have seen so far in this thread, I will be bringing another 2 new ones for Prof Tan to identify tomorrow. I found one of them at the foot of Telok Blangah Hill. It looks like the moss Teck Song mentioned in another post. Whilst searching for new mosses in the fish shops the past few days, I also came across 2 fish shops that were selling this plant. Every Moss needs a common name so for the time being, I'm calling it Bubble Moss. Don't swear at me for naming plants haphazardly but someone's got to do the dirty job  :Laughing: . Here's how it looks:



The other moss which I will be bringing to the professor was given to me by the kind folks at Eco-culture. It looks similar to the moss that appears in page 40 of the AquaJournal Volume 38 (The English version). It's described in the magazine as a moss from Japan that requires an extremely low temperature. The common name given in the magazine is Pope Moss and the scientific name, _Fissidens japonicus_. The sample I have was almost dead when it was given to me about 3 weeks ago but it has revived somewhat since I put it into my tank. Here's a pic:



Professor Benito is going to be a busy man tomorrow  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

Just a short report on the meeting Gan and I had with the professor this afternoon :-

The professor burst my bubble, so to speak. The Bubble Moss as shown in the picture above is, according to the Prof, a Liverwort and not a moss. But that doesn't mean you can't grow them in your tanks, of course. This liverwort can be found in many places in Singapore and when grown submersed, they grow straight up like the Erect Moss. 

The Pope Moss, the Prof said, is a species of the genus _Fissidens_. The species name cannot be confirmed for now. 

It's an exciting time and we are getting close to finding out the true identities of many mosses. The Prof is very keen on getting some samples of Nano, Willow and Dwarf Willow Moss. Please send them as soon as you can. Thank you.

Loh K L

----------


## hwchoy

just to note that timebomb and the Prof spend their valentine together  :Laughing:  peering through microscopes :wink:

----------


## FC

I finally understand why many plants look differently but are named as the same genus. And some plants look almost the same but not of the same family. It is all classified under the microscope and not by the look of the plant.

Thanks Gan for the lead and Prof Tan for the enlightenment.

----------


## imported_brbarkey

Loh K L, I dont have to go to work monday so I will be able to ship you the Willow moss then. You guys over on the other side of the world are lucky people....Im lucky to walk into a fish shop and fisn one or two strands of some stem plants.

----------


## budak

I notice some of the UK-based aquaria magazines (Practical FishKeeping, Today's Fishkeeper) have regular plant editorial sections (though not specifically planted aquaria in the Amano or Dutch sense), but my impression is that the Brits are still barely dabbling in planted aquaria, compared to the Americans/Canadians, and leagues behind the blokes across the Channel. It's rather rather strange, actually, considering that this is nation of the most enthuasistic gardeners (and pond-keepers/nature lovers) I have seen..... surely it's not huge leap of effort and conceptual thought to transplant the greenhouse into the house, aquatically.

Maybe the isolated plantnuts in the UK could set up their own "Aquatic Gardeners" Society, and get the related publications and supporting vendors involved?

----------


## imported_subzero

Hi Kwek Leong,

Is the below moss at all? If it's something new to you i will pass it to you anytime. I picked them from the same stream where i got the 'Bt.Timah' Moss

----------


## Daemonfly

I've been following the moss threads for a while now, as I'm another "moss lover"  :Wink: .

I've been trying to collect mosses, but haven't been to successfull. Nothing local, as it's still winter here  :Sad: .

I have "Java Moss" in my 6G - http://www.daemonfly.com/images/6gEc...02-08-full.jpg
No spore capsules though  :Sad:  but I'll keep an eye out for it.

I also have "X-Mas Moss" from floridadriftwood.com. I beleive most of it is dead now  :Sad:  as I left it in a "holding tank" for too long - was going to attach it to driftwood, but other things came up & it sat for a week. It came loaded with capsules, and produced more when it was in my "moss tank". Some rather poor images of it in my experimental semi-emersed grow-out tank can be found here - http://www.daemonfly.com/images/mosstank/ - as well as two recent pics of it after I put it in my 20gallon, although it's not looking too good, 90% is brown  :Sad:  Some patches are still green, so it's salvageable.
http://www.daemonfly.com/images/20g/xmassmoss1.jpg
http://www.daemonfly.com/images/20g/xmassmoss2.jpg

I have another moss comming in from Urkevitz at www.plantedtank.com that he collected locally(NY, USA). I have no idea what kind it is yet. His description is:



> It's some moss I found by a stream, it looks like javamoss but smaller. I have had it in my tank for 4 days and it is doing good, it pearls like crazy. Very experimental.

----------


## hwchoy

subzero, I think what you have is a liverwort, based on that brownish stem-lilke thing.

----------


## timebomb

> Is the below moss at all? If it's something new to you i will pass it to you anytime.


Ben, I think what you have is a moss. Their tips at the end of the fronds look like those of the Pope Moss that I showed the Prof last weekend. The Prof confirmed that mine is a species of the _Fissidens_ which he said are many. If you can spare me some, I will pass it to the Professor. 

By the way, guys, it's confirmed now that many mosses sold in local fish shops are the species of _Vesicularia_ that is ubiquitous to Singapore. I took 3 samples bought from 3 different fish shops to the Prof and he said they are all the same. I must say someone (the supplier) is being very enterprising, selling mosses that can be found easily everywhere. It's like selling snow to an eskimo  :Laughing:  But on the other hand, I would happily pay for a well-cleaned piece of moss than have to dig for it somewhere.

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

> I have "Java Moss" in my 6G - 
> No spore capsules though  but I'll keep an eye out for it.


Daemonfly,

I would very much prefer to address you by your real name if you are comfortable revealing it :smile:.

I took a look at your picture and I think it's unlikely you will get any spores from the Java Moss if you grow them submersed. I saw your other pictures but couldn't access the last one (the one you got from Urkevitz) though. Can you please send the pic to me instead? I'll upload it for you.

Loh K L

----------


## imported_brbarkey

Loh, I know I said I would ship some willow moss today (monday). I am off work today because of a holiday (presidents day). Well I just realized after I went to the post office that they are also closed because of the holiday, but I will send it to you tomorrow. Sorry for the delay  :Confused: 

ben

----------


## Daemonfly

Timebomb

That actually wasn't a link to a pic  :Opps:  I was just noting the site he was from where I contacted him, and of course, the board turned it into a link.

Once I get the moss, and get it growing, I will deffinately try to snap a pic for ya.

One other question. On ebay, etc.. there are many auctions for mosses for bonsai & terrariums/reptiles. Common ones are "Mt Fuji Moss" & "Kyoto Moss". Not sure how they'd grow submerged, but I found one seller about an hour from me that is selling this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EBWA%3AIT&rd=1

I emailed her about getting only one bag, as I don't have room for two!  :Laughing:  For some reason, that moss looks awefully familliar...

I just picked some moss from my Bonsai & will see if it grows emersed as well.

And, I'm just so used to using "Daemonfly" as my default internet persona, especially when theres "old acquaintences" I'd rather not be able to Google & match it to my full name.  :Wink: 

Mike

----------


## timebomb

> For some reason, that moss looks awefully familliar...


Mosses always look familiar; in emersed form, they all look the same :smile:

Mike, I'm not sure what mosses are those but I suppose they must be from Japan. The planted tank hobby is big over there so if there's a moss that can be grown in our tanks, I'm quite sure some Japanese hobbyist would have tried it already. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a go, of course. You'll never know until you try.

As for "old acquaintances", I can understand what you mean as I have quite a few of them too :smile: But my teacher used to say, "A man with no enemy is a man with few friends". I have many enemies  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

----------


## Green Baron

> By the way, guys, it's confirmed now that many mosses sold in local fish shops are the species of _Vesicularia_ that is ubiquitous to Singapore.


I brought along 'Taiwan/Mini' moss and 'Christmas' moss that I bought from LFS in emersed form for Prof Tan to Id and both turned out to be the same _Vesicularia sp_ as the one KL mentioned above.  :Shocked:  

So any of you that bought emersed form of Christmas Moss have been had !  :Mad:  I don't think any LFS intended to deceive us. They probably bought it from someone else that claimed the moss to be Christmas Moss !

Well, the good news is that this particular _Vesicularia sp_ when grown properly, have nice triangular fronds and looks just as nice as Christmas Moss ! To most aquarist, that is all that matter.  :Very Happy:  

Until Prof Tan publishes his article, there is no easy way to tell the imitation from the real McCoy. What we know is that if it is in emersed form or if it is cheap <$10, it is probably not the the real McCoy.

----------


## imported_brbarkey

Loh K L,

Package was sent today (Tuesday) at 4:00 p.m. my time. Not sure how long it will take for the package to arrive. I didnt put any riccia in there like I said in the liverwort post...couldnt find enough to send...oh well, but now I hope you will have some willow moss or whats being sold over here as willow moss...I guess this thread has taught us you never know what moss your buying. I know you said that you would send some Christmas moss or erect moss but dont worry about that. They are beautiful mosses but I dont have a place for them...Just keep me in the back of your mind...I might take you up on the offer some time in the future  :Laughing:  

another note that I hope wont affect the moss...I didnt have a lighter to seal the bag so I used a bunson burner, which was very difficult. To make sure it was sealed tight i wraped it in packing tape...I hope it works  :Confused:  

I hope it arrives in good condition

----------


## timebomb

Hi, folks,

I got in the mail yesterday a letter, enclosed within were 3 plastic bags of mosses. The envelope carried a Singapore stamp which obviously meant it was mailed by someone living here. There was also a note in the letter which stated that the mosses were from these countries, namely, China, Thailand and South America. The letter writer signed off with his real name but since I'm not sure if he wants his name to be revealed in a public forum, I would just tell you all his initials, which are YY.

I appreciate YY sending the mosses very much but I wish I know who he really is so I can thank him properly. I also like to send him some Erect Moss in return. Anyway, here are the pics of the lovely mosses that YY sent.

*Moss from China*


*Moss from Thailand*


*Moss from South America*


It would be a great help if YY lets me know where he got the mosses and what are their common names. The Moss from China looks like Taiwan Moss and those from Thailand look like Java. I wonder if those from South America are Willow. 

YY, if you are reading this post, please contact me privately if you are uncomfortable about revealing yourself in this forum. Thank you.

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

Hi,

It's been 2 weeks since I started growing the Erect Moss emersed in my terrarium. As with other mosses in our tanks, they look completely different in emersed form. Here's a pic:



Now that you know how they look like when grown on land, you can go hunting for them :smile:

The Prof said that although the Erect and Christmas Moss are native to the regions around here, it's unlikely you can find them in Singapore. However, he thinks that you can find them in Malaysia in the good forests. By "good forests", he meant forests that have not been spoiled by man. 

Loh K L

----------


## wks

No need to go all the way to Malaysia's forest to look for the Christmas and Erect moss. We already have a reliable supplier here and thats you, Kwek Leong. :wink: 

Jason Wong

----------


## kc

> 2 weeks since I started growing the Erect Moss emersed in my terrarium.



Ar hah!! Looked familiar! It's mossing time!

----------


## timebomb

YY called me on the phone this morning. For various reasons which I would consider valid, he does not want to reveal his identity here. Anyway, YY confirmed that the 3 mosses he sent were imported from the 3 countries that were mentioned. 

I'll be bringing them to the Prof for identification. YY, if you are reading this, I have to let you know that the results may not be announced so soon as the Prof may want to do another scientific paper on the rarer mosses in the market. The 3 you sent could qualify to be in the "rare moss" category. If they turn out to be Java or Christmas Moss, however, I will let you know about it immediately.

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

Hi, folks,

It's a Mossy day today!! I received 4 envelopes from hobbyists who live in other countries. And there were many bags of mosses. Thank you.

The mosses have been placed in plastic containers and tagged accordingly. I'm highlighting 2 here because they are very beautiful. One is called Tropical Moss by the person who sent them and the other is Willow Moss from UK. To my untrained eyes, they look like the same moss. Here are the pics:

*Tropical Moss*


*Willow Moss from UK*


When I have time, I will take the pics of the other mosses I received today. Thank you very much to Susan Aufieri (USA), Ben Barkey (USA), Ben Morrow (USA) and the guy who lives in the United Kingdom. He sent 5 bags of mosses but did not write down a return address or a name. Were those mosses from you, Tony? 

Loh K L

----------


## BeyondGomer

Hopefully, you'll get it soon. Did you get my email regarding the moss?

----------


## Green Baron

> Hi, folks,
> It's a Mossy day today!! I received 4 envelopes from hobbyists who live in other countries. And there were many bags of mosses. Thank you.


They are really pretty ! I sure Prof Tan will be delighted to see these mosses !

Gan

----------


## tony.ch

Loh K L 
Those are the mosses I sent, glad to see they arrived ok. I bought the tropical moss quite a time before the willow moss but must admit that to my untrained eye they looked alike aswell. The only difference I could tell (if there is one) was that the tropical moss was darker green. They both however came from the same supplier under the two different names. I have been led to believe that the willow moss was grown outdoors in the UK whilst the tropical moss is an import - I shall be interested to know if they truly are different. 
Cheers
Tony

----------


## imported_brbarkey

Loh K L 

Im glad my moss arrived ok...how did the sealed bag work? I have never seen the moss that tony has sent you and comparing in to my "willow moss" they look totally different. My moss looks more like it belongs to the genus Vesicularia. I would love to see more pictures of tony's mosses they look very interesting  :Cool:

----------


## Daemonfly

Found a page that might be of minor interest. They were trying to ID an "erect" moss they found.

http://hem.bredband.net/micnor/Mysterymoss.htm

----------


## timebomb

> Did you get my email regarding the moss?


Yes, I did, Gomer. You don't have to worry about the algae problem. Your moss arrived today. Thanks. Here's a pic of your Nano Moss:

*Nano Moss*


And here's a pic of the moss that NongOil thought was the same as yours.

*Dwarf Willow Moss*





> Those are the mosses I sent, glad to see they arrived ok.


Tony, here are the pics of the other 3 mosses you sent:

*Java Moss from UK*


*Willow Moss from UK with elongated fronds*


*Christmas Moss from UK*





> I'm glad my moss arrived ok...how did the sealed bag work? My moss looks more like it belongs to the genus Vesicularia.


Ben, here's a pic of the moss you sent. Does it have a common name?

*Ben Barkey's Moss*


Ben Morrow also sent a moss and here's how it looks:

*Ben Morrow's Moss*


My good friend, Susan Aufieri also sent some moss from her tanks. I think they are Java.

*Susan's Moss*


Lastly, Stephan Misfud who lives in Malta sent 5 different species of mosses but he didn't write down the names so I really have no idea what mosses are these:

*Moss (A) from Stephan*


*Moss (B) from Stephan*


*Moss (C) from Stephan*


*Moss (D) from Stephan*


*Moss (E) from Stephan*


The last one does not look like a moss at all but a liverwort. Unfortunately, it didn't survive the journey.

Many thanks to everyone who sent mosses. I will try and get them all identified but top priority goes to finding out which is the real Willow Moss. 
The Prof is busy working on the scientific paper about the 5 mosses (namely, Java, Christmas, Taiwan, Erect and Bukit Timah/HDB) so it will take some time before he can examine the other mosses. Someone wrote me and said he has capsules on his Java Moss. The Prof was really excited when he heard about this. 

Loh K L

----------


## imported_brbarkey

Loh K L, the moss i sent was a moss that I purchased identifing it as willow moss.

----------


## timebomb

Hi, folks,

I just got home from a meeting with the Professor and I like to report on his findings.

First of all, we found the real Willow Moss. Hurray!! 

The scientific name for Willow Moss is _Fontinalis antipyretica_. That we know and was never in doubt. But what many of us probably don't know is that there are many varieties of _F. antipyretica_, among which are var. cymbifolia, var. gigantea, var. antipyretica and var. gracilis. These are just 4 varieties; there are many more. The moss that Ben Morrow sent is _Fontinalis antipyretica var. antipyretica_. Here's how it looks:




Tony who lives in the United Kingdom sent 2 mosses which look alike. He calls it Willow and Tropical Moss. They are the same plant, Tony and they are both Willow Mosses except that they are of a different variety from the one Ben Morrow sent. Yours are _Fontinalis antipyretica var. gigantea_ As the name implies, your Willow Moss has bigger leaves than the other varieties of Willow. Here are the pictures of Tony's Willow Mosses:





Ben Barkey sent a moss which he thought was Willow Moss too but the Prof said it's not. He said its a _Leptodictyum riparium_. I don't know if this moss has a common name but if there isn't any, maybe Ben can coin one :smile: Here's a pic of Ben Barkey's _Leptodictyum riparium_:



So now we know which is the genuine Willow Moss which would mean that all those so-called Willow Mosses sold in Singapore are impostors :smile:.
Anyway, the Prof said he has seen Willow Moss growing in the rivers of North America and they can grow up to 2 metres in length. There's in fact, a stream in Canada which was, on a suggestion by the Prof, named Fontinalis River. 

Willow Mosses prefer strong currents and low temperatures so hobbyists in Singapore may have difficulties growing them. I'm trying to grow some of Tony's and Ben Morrow's Willow Mosses in my tanks but I'm not confident that I can keep them alive. If there's any Singaporean hobbyist here who wants to try growing this moss, please drop me a note. But if you can't even grow the Christmas or Erect Moss, please don't bug me for any Willow  :Laughing: .

Gomer sent a Moss which he calls Nano Moss. The Prof said its _Amblystegium serpens_. Here's a pic of Gomer's moss.



Stephan Mifsud who lives in Malta sent a moss which he thought was Java Moss with capsules. Here's how it looks:



The Prof was excited about the capsules but unfortunately, he discovered that it wasn't Java Moss but a species of _Vesicularia_. Too bad  :Crying:  but I'm expecting another sample of Java Moss with capsules from a hobbyist living in the USA. Let's hope it's really Java this time.

That's all I have to report for now. I didn't bring every sample of moss I received to the Prof because there won't be enough time to examine all of them. But rest assured I will try my best to get all your mosses identified later when the Prof has more time. 

And oh, one more thing. The Prof has decided that the common name for the moss formerly known as Bukit Timah/HDB should be "Singapore Moss". I would say the name is fitting as it's a moss that can be found everywhere in Singapore growing under the shades of trees and on the sides of streams. Also, Singaporean hobbyists were the first people to find this moss and popularise it. It's a species of _Vesicularia_ and is semi-aquatic which means you can grow them emersed or submersed. I know some of you will be disappointed that your suggestions for the common name weren't accepted but let's all take this in good faith. Choy Heng Wah and Ben Yau were the first 2 persons to report about this moss which they found in the Bukit Timah area. Although their suggestions for the common name were rejected, they deserve a lot of credit for bringing this moss to the attention of hobbyists everywhere. Let's give these 2 a big round of applause.:smile:

Here's a pic of the Singapore Moss:



Loh K L

----------


## hwchoy

Loh, pass some willow to bioplast, since he has cold water and those flow height tanks with good current. he is also just across from your house so you can check on them everyday :P

----------


## Green Baron

> The Prof was excited about the capsules but unfortunately, he discovered that it wasn't Java Moss but a species of _Vesicularia_. Too bad  but I'm expecting another sample of Java Moss with capsules from a hobbyist living in the USA. Let's hope it's really Java this time.
> Loh K L


Actually, Prof Tan said that the moss sent by Stephan Mifsud contains a mixture of _Vesicularia sp_ and Java Moss. However all the capsules were detached from the moss  :Sad:  and could have come from the _Vesicularia sp_ instead. Thus the specimen cannot be used since he can't be certain that the capsules are really from Java Moss.

If any of you plan to send Java moss with capsules to KL, please make sure the capsules are still attached to the moss.




> And oh, one more thing. The Prof has decided that the common name for the moss formerly known as Bukit Timah/HDB should be "Singapore Moss". I would say the name is fitting as it's a moss that can be found everywhere in Singapore growing under the shades of trees and on the sides of streams. Also, Singaporean hobbyists were the first people to find this moss and popularise it. It's a species of _Vesicularia_ and is semi-aquatic which means you can grow them emersed or submersed. 
> 
> Here's a pic of the Singapore Moss:


Note that almost all the mosses sold in emersed form (with soil at the bottom) in Singapore LFS are this 'Singapore Moss' and not the real Christmas Moss.  :Sad:  
The good news is Singapore Moss when grow properly can look like Christmas Moss and it is almost impossible to tell them apart without comparing them under microscope.

Here's a photo of Singapore Moss in submersed form :

The moss at the top of the drift wood is Erect Moss.

Gan

----------


## hwchoy

> The good news is Singapore Moss when grow properly can look like Christmas Moss and it is almost impossible to tell them apart without comparing them under microscope.
> Gan


I can vouch for that. I have grown both the Singapore moss and the Christmas moss (from Gen-X) on mesh in the same tank side by side. If it weren't for the fact that they're next to each other, it would have been impossible to identify.

----------


## Debbbear

Loh K L,
I have been enjoying this thread.  :Very Happy:  
I have looked and looked at my Java moss which is all over my tank. I can not see any capsules. Maybe I don't know what I'm looking for.  :Confused:  I will send you a picture and you have a look. If there is something that catches your eye I will send you some.

----------


## imported_brbarkey

Loh K L

Thanks for getting my moss I.D. for me...how cool are you!!!  :Cool: . As for a common name I havent a clue...I will let some grow out well and then maybe post a pic of it for some help on that one  :Very Happy:

----------


## Daemonfly

The moss I received from someone in New York, USA looks to be identical to Gomer's Nano Moss - i.e. a mini "erect moss". Once this grows out, I can send some.

I have another moss I gathered from my bonsai tree that I'm acclimating to submerged growth. It was just a few fronds, so needs time to grow.

I'm also growing "Java moss" emersed to see if I can get some spore capsules. If so, I'll send them along.

My "Christmas Moss" from www.floridadriftwood.com is slowly recovering, but is now half covered in blue-green algae that my 20g is infested with  :Sad: 

Once the mosses are ready, I'll just ship them all over, but that might still be a few weeks off.

----------


## Slaigar

I will have to start looking for mosses when it warms up here in Canada! Too bad summer will not be coming for quite awhile. Next time I go to Waterton(a few hours away), I will do some active searching. The lakes beside me are man made and gross me out.

Atleast I can look forward to a small batch of erect moss that I ordered. I am crossing my fingers that it comes in a few days!

----------


## timebomb

> I have been enjoying this thread.  
> I have looked and looked at my Java moss which is all over my tank. I can not see any capsules.


I didn't know mosses interest you too, Debra but I'm glad you're enjoying this thread :smile:. If you can find a capsule in your Java Moss, you could very well become famous overnight :smile:. It looks like a comma, a stem with a bud at one end. 




> Once the mosses are ready, I'll just ship them all over, but that might still be a few weeks off.


I'll be waiting for your mosses, Mike. In the meantime, if you like to have some Christmas and Erect, write me privately with your mailing address. I have plenty of both :smile:.




> I will have to start looking for mosses when it warms up here in Canada!


Mark, is there really a Fontanilis River in Canada? I wonder if the Prof was pulling my leg when he told me that story  :Laughing:  If you're looking for Erect Moss, look no furthur. I will send you some. All I ask is that you send some moss in return. The Prof said temperate countries have many aquatic mosses. Is Canada a temperate country? My geography sucks  :Laughing: 

Loh K L

----------


## BeyondGomer

> The moss I received from someone in New York, USA looks to be identical to Gomer's Nano Moss - i.e. a mini "erect moss". Once this grows out, I can send some.


I sent some of my moss to a few people. One if I remember correctly was in New York. A possibility?



Thanks Timebomb! Interesting findings! Hope this all helps with the professor's studies  :Smile:

----------


## Daemonfly

No, this was Urkevitz's moss from Plantedtank.net, if you remember. He collected it locally & has been growing it in his tank. He thinks it's _Leptodictyum riparium_, or Streamside Leptodictyum moss

Emersed & Submersed pics, both are about a week's growth:




Moss from Bonsai:


This is quite similar to the Urkevitz moss so far, but it's such a small portion, and it's only been growing submersed for a few days, so hard to tell yet. It's keeping my 2 baby Marimo balls company  :Wink:

----------


## Slaigar

I am not too sure what the term "temperate" means but Canada does have a wide range of biomes. Other than being consumed with snow for a good deal of the time, Canada does have regions considered to be temperate rainforest. Sadly, I am not in that region. The province that I am in is mostly prairies (grassland).

I cannot say I ever heard of "Fontinalis River"! The name has never been mentioned in social class yet either, hehe. I was quite shocked when I read the name, thinking that there might be a fresh source of moss near me! If there are rivers with prolific amounts of moss nearby, I will be sure to collect.

----------


## timebomb

Mike,

Urkevitz's moss looks very nice emersed. If they are really _Leptodictyum riparium_, I regret giving all of what Ben Barkey sent to the Prof. If I had known they can be grown emersed, I would have kept some for myself  :Crying: 

It's actually quite easy to grow mosses emersed. I took a look at my terrarium today and noticed that the Erect is growing really well. It's been almost a month since I put the Erect on the driftwood and here's how it looks now:



Loh K L

----------


## confusekid

The moss that I collected locally actually grow to look like the Java moss that was given to me. 

Loh,
Do you want a sample of both?

Jack

----------


## Daemonfly

Found a short, but somewhat interesting article on aquatic mosses (need Adobe Acrobat to read)
http://www.uni-hohenheim.de/www320/g...bryophytes.pdf

----------


## imported_brbarkey

Loh K L 

If you really want more of my moss to grow it emersed than remind me in a week or two...I have to let it grow  :Laughing:  
Then I will send you some  :Very Happy:  
It will grow quick now that the SAE is out of the tank

----------


## timebomb

> Loh,Do you want a sample of both?


Thanks for the offer, Jack. But if what you have are from Singapore, chances are I have them in my tanks already. I appreciate the offer very much though.




> If you really want more of my moss to grow it emersed than remind me in a week or two...I have to let it grow  
> Then I will send you some


Thanks, Ben. I will remind you about your offer in a few weeks' time. It seems like the Prof dried out all the mosses I gave him so we don't have any live specimens of your _Leptodictyum riparium_ anymore. 

I received another 4 samples of mosses in the mail this week. One came from Dennis aka strung_out in this forum. If memory serves, Dennis who lives in the USA said he got the moss from someone in Singapore. The guy calls it Mini-Moss but I think what Dennis sent is actually the moss we now call "Singapore Moss". Here's a pic:



Jim Swinford who lives in the US of A too sent 2 mosses, one of which didn't survive the journey. Jim thinks it can be revived though but I don't fancy the chances. Here's the pic of the one that died.



Jim said one of the mosses he sent is called Pond Moss but I'm not sure if he meant this one:



Bob Warwick said his Java Moss has capsules and he sent a sample. Just like the one Stephan sent, it was a very small sample so I'm not confident that there are enough fronds for the Prof to make a positive identification. The capsules are there though and they are still sticking to the fronds. I have to get this to the Prof in a hurry before the capsules fall out.



A big Thank You to all who sent mosses. Please keep them coming.

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

Hi, folks,

Just got home from the Prof's lab and here's my report.

The so-called Mini Moss that Dennis sent is, as I suspected, the same moss we now call Singapore Moss. For once, I was right. Hurray  :Laughing: 

The moss that Jim Swinford sent is a species of _Vesicularia_ and probably is the same as the one we call Christmas Moss. I used the word "probably" because the Prof said it could also be another species of _Vesicularia_ that is native to the United States and not to South East Asia. The Prof humbly admitted that he's an expert only on Asian mosses and not the whole world :smile:. 

Now for the all-important moss - the Java Moss that has capsules. Bob Warwick who lives in the US of A sent a sample of capsuled Java Moss. The Prof examined it and confirmed that's its a species of _Taxiphyllum_ but unfortunately, it's not the same species of _Taxiphyllum_ as those found in South East Asia. In other words, what Bob sent was Java Moss alright but it isn't the same as the Java found locally. Sigh, it looks like we are not getting any closer to finding the true identity of the Java Moss.

Loh K L

----------


## timebomb

The professor will be in Malaysia hunting for more species of mosses so I won't be meeting him at his lab this weekend. Just to let you all who are following this thread have something interesting to read - A close friend who is fascinated by our love for mosses, wrote me and in his email, quoted William Blake,

_To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour._

He said that if we can just understand one small thing like a moss and understand it perfectly, it may help us to understand the universe. I don't know about you but if I can grow them, I'm happy :smile:.

Loh K L

----------

