# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  Breathable bags

## blinkytom

Hi everyone,

A friend has given me some breathable bags which he's asked me to test in order to contribute to an article he's writing. I'd like to send some fish to you in Singapore but I have a couple of things which concern me.

1. Which Royal Mail service do I use? Airmail is the fastest but they don't take parcels, only packets and letters. 

RM restrictions on packet and letter size - 
Minimum = One surface at least 90mm x 140mm 
Maximum = Length, width and depth combined - 900mm
Greatest single dimension - 600mm. 2kg in weight.

My idea to get round this is to put the bags in to a small, thin box and to put that inside a bubble envelope, then sending it as a packet. Do you think this would work?

2. What do I put on the customs form? You're not technically permitted to send live fish through Royal Mail but you are allowed to send fish fry. If I put 'Tropical fish fry for aquariums' or something similar do you think they would have any issues with this?

I would really appreciate your opinions on this.

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## shortman

Hi Tom,

1. Use a old music a old CD casing then insert in the bubble envelope should work. I think Mr Loh did it this way.

2. I believe put "Fry for Aquarium Research Purpose" should be ok.

Regards

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## RonWill

> Airmail is the fastest but they don't take parcels, only packets and letters. 
> 
> RM restrictions on packet and letter size - 
> Minimum = One surface at least 90mm x 140mm 
> Maximum = Length, width and depth combined - 900mm
> Greatest single dimension - 600mm. 2kg in weight.


Tom, I found a thin but stiff 4mm wooden box that might solve the '*protection-weight-size*' issue.

It measures 21cmL x 14cmW x 5cmH, with a max girth of 40cm. By itself, it weighs 160grams and should comfortably accomodate 8 breather bags. The bags will be wrapped individually with a thin layer of filter pad and contain ONE fish each. The box will go into a large bubble-pack envelope and that ought to qualify as packet delivery.

From what I understand about these bags, 'breathability' is closed off when the plastic material touches another surface. Hence, the layer of filter wool maintains a 'space' between bags and also offers some protection and shock-absorption from rough handling.

I could send you a few pairs of killies in the said box and results from that shipment can be contributed to your friend's article. You get to keep the fishes, of course :wink: If you're game, pop me an email with your shipping address and I'll work on it.

I have 2 such boxes so just let me know if you need them. Alternatively, there are plastic boxes used for business calling cards, or 3½ computer diskettes, and each of these can hold 2 pad-wrapped breather bags. These will fit most padded envelopes.

There's also a couple of styrofoam boxes in my storeroom, that Hikari uses for their frozen bloodworms (and other stuffs), that can be considered depending on the weather at your end.

For declaration, I'll keep things simple with "Perishable samples" or even simpler... just "Fry" or "Fish eggs" :wink: 

Should anyone find misintepretation/misinformation in my posts, please let me know.




> Use a old music CD casing then inset in the bubble envelope should work. I think Mr Loh did it this way


Kho, IIRC, the CD casing was used to send plants preserved in agar, not fish fry. It would be too thin to fit a breather bag with air space (and a fish in it!)  :Rolling Eyes:

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## blinkytom

Hi again




> 2. I believe put "Fry for Aquarium Research Purpose" should be ok.


Thanks for your suggestion Kho, I was looking for the right phrase to show that the contents was to be kept in captivity and not released into local waters, I think you got it just right.




> Tom, I found a thin but stiff 4mm wooden box that might solve the 'protection-weight-size' issue. 
> 
> It measures 21cmL x 14cmW x 5cmH, with a max girth of 40cm. By itself, it weighs 160grams and should comfortably accomodate 8 breather bags. The bags will be wrapped individually with a thin layer of filter pad and contain ONE fish each. The box will go into a large bubble-pack envelope and that ought to qualify as packet delivery.


That box sounds perfect for the job. It is a few cms larger than a standard VHS video case which I thought could be another possible option. The main worry I have with a plastic video case is the amount of air available inside. I'm guessing the plastic won't be able to breathe itself which will restrict the air available to the bags. I think a wooden box would probably be able to breathe a bit more. I did think about drilling air holes in the case but I thought it might result in widely fluctuating temperatures. What do you think?

After looking on Ebay in the shipping supplies section I found some cardboard boxes designed specifically for VHS videos. The worry I have with this option is that the cardboard may not provide enough protection.

I have some 3 1/2" computer disk boxes which as you mention are another possibility, but they are made of plastic and may have the same breathability problems as the video case.

With all these options we'll just have to do plenty of swaps to test them all  :Wink: 




> For declaration, I'll keep things simple with "Perishable samples" or even simpler... just "Fry" or "Fish eggs"


I'm tempted to use "Fish eggs" as suggesting that there are live fish present will probably just attract attention. I think "Perishable samples" could also attract some curious customs workers. When sending eggs abroad I use "Fish eggs for scientific study" to try to make it clear that they won't be released into the wild.

I'm definatly game for a swap, hopefully we can prove that international trading is very possible. I'll PM you my shipping address.

Thanks very much for all the ideas.

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## RonWill

Tom, I'll put some fishes through a 4-day fast so there'll be minimal waste to foul the little water they're packed in.

If there's leftover space in the box, you _might_ find some developing eggs of _Ap. AUS_ EBT 97-24.

Will ship 'em out on Monday to avoid having them sit around at the PO over the weekend as well.

Will shoot pics as I work and your friend can use these in his article, if he so wishes. No problems with 'intellectual rights'. All in good fun and in the name of killie-keepers' goodwill.




> With all these options we'll just have to do plenty of swaps to test them all


Couldn't have said it better myself :wink:

BTW, what's the pH of your water, straight out from the mains?

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## blinkytom

Thanks Ronnie

I look forward to recieving the fish (fingers crossed all alive and well) and I'll get some fish sorted to send back in return.

I'm sure Steve (my friend who's writing the article) will be very glad of any photos.

My tap water is about pH 8 and pretty hard. I have no problems using it for growing on soft water killies and some even lay eggs in it but I use rain water for serious breeding attempts. I'll let you know what water conditions each species is shipped in.

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## shortman

Ronnie,

Saw the box in the gallery not sure is this the one.  :Very Happy:  
I post it here without your permission.  :Crying:  



Bregards

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## RonWill

Thanks Kho,
I was having hell, trying to figure out the 'URL path' to that image. Getting to the picture via browsing gave me this addy:
http://killies.com/forum/modules.php...view_photo.php

Yes, that's the wooden box I was referring to and has a thin slide-in acrylic cover.

However, while at the LFS, Jian Yang suggested that the Hikari box may be more suitable. It's definitely lighter at only 32grams and can take a good drop but lacks compressive strength (in case a heavier parcels stack on it).

To beef it up, I made some 'struts' out of corrugated cardboard, as in the following clickable image;


_drats...  took me too long to figure this addy as well  
http://www.killies.com/forum/albums/...ippingBox2.jpg (Kho, I think it's best if you can put up a FAQ on linking images to the forum thread. It's not intuitive for the non-IT folks!)_
Anyway, the modified foam box measures 20L x 16W x 7cmH and I'll use this one for our trial. Together with the 'cross-struts' and a 'border insert', it comes up to 80grams (half the weight of the wooden one), but if it deforms beyond recognition by the time you get it, I'll go with 'woody'.

The fishes will start their fast later today and hit the PO Monday morning.

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## blinkytom

Hi all

Is it just me or are some of the icons of the forum not showing up? Some of the Smilies and the delete/edit post icons amoungst a couple of other things. I also can't see the photos in the gallery. I hope I don't have some sort of virus :s 

The new box sounds good and will probably provide a more stable environment for the fishes in terms of temperature. Being slightly larger there will be more space for air too.

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## stormhawk

Tom,

Just a suggestion, do a check on your IE security settings. It could be possible that the settings are preventing your browser from loading up some files properly. I do get that problem from time to time but that was when I was accessing the web from my army base. At home I have no problems with loading or viewing the pics in the gallery.

By the way, is your friend writing the article for PFK? I've been reading PFK for a few months now and some editions are great for keeping, especially the ones with product comparisons.

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## blinkytom

Jian Yang, thanks for the suggestion. I've tried playing around the the settings for a few minutes but nothing seems to have worked. Even with the security settings set on low they don't show up. I don't get this problem on any other website. I'm getting very frustrated and I'm half thinking about formatting and starting again  :Sad: 

No the article isn't for PFK, it's for the journal of the BKA. Did you read the article a few months back called something like "Killies - the myths" by Steve Davidson. That's the friend who's writing the article on breathing bags.

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## RonWill

Tom, my fave browser is Netscape (ver 7.01 installed in my home PC) but it's cranky with this site and IE v6 loads up all icons without a hitch. Could it be that you're using an older release of the browsers? An upgrade maybe?

Java scripts has something to do with uploading pics to the gallery (workplace uses old Netscape) but no problem with just viewing.

For the foam box, I'm thinking too, that it will buffer changable weather (just in case) and am eager to see how it works out (a bonus if all the fishes survive!).

Since photo usage are non-commercial (and for the benefit of other killie-keepers), Steve has my expressed permission to use the images as he see fit. Just let me know what pic resolution is most suitable for his purpose.

I don't think any of the local boys, including myself, are members of the BKA but is there a URL to the "Killies - the myths" article?

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## stormhawk

Hi Tom,

Yes I believe I've read that article before but I didn't buy that particular issue. Was browsing through the issue at the bookstore. Can't remember the contents though but it was a pretty short article. I like PFK for the content, sometimes you get little gems of info on how to recreate biotope tanks. In any case, if the BKA journal's released, do give us a look or two at the article. :wink:

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## rthien

Ronnie,




> _(Kho, I think it's best if you can put up a FAQ on linking images to the forum thread. It's not intuitive for the non-IT folks!)_


I made an attempt with instructions on how to get the URL and thus the images in our Gallery to show up in our post using IE and Netscape/Mozilla browsers. Since all this is very familiar to me, I may have left out steps that are not obvious to others! Take a look at:

http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=905

And let me know if I should change it to simplify the instructions or add anything else to make it for more complete for non-IT folks.

Cheers,

Roger

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## RonWill

> And let me know if I should change it to simplify the instructions or add anything else to make it for more complete for non-IT folks.


Roger, thanks for putting up the FAQ. It should be simple enough to understand.

One comment tho. The 'desktop graphic' is *huge* and dial-up'ers have enough time to go make coffee :wink: A resize perhaps?

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## RonWill

Hiya Tom,

Jian Yang and I did some 'fishing' today and the following species will be heading your way;
1 pair - _Fp. GAR_ "N'sukka" (Patrick Coleman's 'blue-form')
2 pairs - _Aplo. kirchmayeri_ (Goa Killie - Commercial import '04)
2 pairs - _Ps. annulatus_ (Clown Killie - Farm-raised parent stock, Asian-source)

The Goa & Clown killies are home-bred and should be tolerant to greater fluctuations in temp and water conditions ('boot-camp' trained :wink: )

Also packed a couple of _Ap. AUS_ EBT 97-24*** eggs that're close to hatching. The tannic water is just previously-boiled peat tea (no ketapang brew mixed in). Get 'em tanks ready!

***This 1st batch of eyed-up EBT eggs are from a private egg order to David (received: Mar 4th '04 , hatch: Mar 11th)

I'm considering packing them in about 2 film-cannisters' worth of water, which isn't alot. Suggestions, anyone?

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## blinkytom

Hi Ronnie

Those fish sound great thanks. What water (ie. pH, hardness) are they being shipped in? I don't want to shock them too much by changing the water they go into at my end. 

I've bred _GAR_ before (they were the very first killies I kept) so I know what I'm doing with them. What pH and temperature do you recommend for the Goa Killies? I'll be putting the _ANN_ into a rainwater tank stuffed with as much Java Moss as I can find. So your guessing the _AUS_ will hatch enroute? I think as long as the eggs are fertile, in theory none should fungus and polute the water so 2 film canisters of water should be enough. This should be a good test for the bags.

Fish heading back to you will be-

1 pair _A. primigenium_ Kanda GJS 00-18
1 pair _A. riggenbachi_ Yellow (99% sure it's the Dibeng import to the UK in '01 but I recieved them with only the "Yellow" label so can't say for sure)
1 pair or maybe trio _A. spoorenbergi_ (Aquarium strain)

Also having a stab at breeding _Fp. sp. GS 2_ and _A. gabunense boehmi_ for the first time, any eggs produced will be heading your way too.

If anyone wants them I also have plenty of Endler's livebearers, _Girardinus metallicus_ (Black Chin Livebearer) and _Ameca splendens_ (an endangered Goodeid) that can be put in too. I'm assuming these will ship as well as the killies as they're Livebearing Toothcarps and killies are Egg-laying Toothcarps.

Another thing, is anyone in need of _N. flammicomantis_ Kisaki females? as I have 2 and no male.

Ronnie, Steve's article was in PFK. It's purpose was to destroy the myths about Killies being hard to keep and only for the experienced hobbyist. If you promise not to distribute it (or tell PFK) I'll scan it for you. 

Jian Yang, I've been a subscriber to PFK for around 5 years now and I agree, they really can give you some inspiration with the biotope tanks. The only thing I'm finding a bit tedious is the Q & A section, it always seems to be the same questions being asked.

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## Slaigar

Hello Tom,
_N. flammicomantis Kisaki_ is quite a beauty. I have just recently seen pictures of it on the internet. Too bad you do not have a breeding pair, this species would be lovely to have around more. Do you have a source for _N. flammicomantis_ eggs?

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## blinkytom

Hi Mark

Yes the _flammicomantis_ are a very nice fish, I'm very disappointed about only having 2 females. I bought a pair in an auction a year or so ago but only got 2 fry out of them, which both turned out to be female. I've read the sex ratio is usually male heavy but not in my case. There may well be someone in the UK keeping these fish, if I see them in another auction I'll definatly buy a pair or 2.

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## RonWill

*Ap. AUS EBT 97-24 eggs*

  *Fp. GAR "N'sukka" (Patrick Coleman's 'blue-form')*
*(1 Pair, single packing)*

  _Ps. annulatus_ *(Pair & single packing)*

  _Aplo. kirchmayeri_ *(Pair & single packing)*

  _double checking content & labels..._

 *All packed and ready to go!*

Tom, I was editing pics and forgot the time... missed the PO closing  :Opps:  Will drop it off tomorrow.

Bigger pics are at the gallery and please wait while I do up a web page for the commentaries.

I have a pair of Endler's livebearers but the female is not throwing fry. Pack in a pair, only if you have extras.

PS: Water has color-tint from the 'Japanese Yellow Powder' which I usually add in when transporting fishes. I suspect it to be acriflavin-based and a few extra breather bags within the packet.

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## RonWill

Tom, I'm taking a break at work and checked on the contents. As this is my 'maiden attempt' with breathers, I'm especially anxious.

I'll suggest you get the grow-out tank/container ready... I see 4 fry in there already!

Perhaps I should have packed in fresh eggs instead of these in late development, but ah... what the heck! It'll really debunk the 'hard-to-keep' myth when even fry can survive the journey.

About the water... while the fishes were fasting in the holding tank, the pH has been 'reset' to neutral (or approx pH7.2, according to my indicator strip). This will allow easier assimilation into your system.

The other fishes are ok but not too happy about the cubicle-style living space! FYI, the bags was a joint purchase with Sia Meng, from Tony Terceira.

Tony, if you're still with us, could you offer us some information about these thin bags and some suggestions on packing (am I filling it up too tight?).

Insight from anyone who're doing this or received fishes in breathers, will be appreciated and I'll try to incorporate these ideas in my subsequent shipping trial.

Back to work :wink:

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## blinkytom

Hi Ronnie

Thanks for the photos, they will really help to visualize how breathing bags are packed.

I'll be setting up their tanks and grow out containers about mid week. 

The return package will be sent sometime soon after June 25th as I'm just starting my exams (first one tomorrow and the last one on the 25th) and I'm spending most of my free time frantically revising.

As to my problems viewing photos and parts of the forum, I've temporarily managed to get round it. I'm able to view them normally on our 2nd computer which is networked to this one. Strange because the internet connection goes through this computer (where I can't view photos) to the other one (where I can).

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## RonWill

Tom,
I've been busy at work and with the kids on holiday, I haven't had the chance to haul my *** over to the PO. Many apologies.

It was a blessing that Zul came over today, to pick up his fry that's under my care (while he was having the good life and enjoying his holiday!  :Confused:  ). I tasked him to help me out by getting the package to the PO.

The packed fishes were in their bags for the past week since Jun 14th without food. All the said EBT eggs have hatched without losses. The only casualty was a female ANN that was together with an over-zealous male (I suspect he harassed her to death within the closed quarters).

I did a 100% water change for all the bags (including the fry) and replaced a plumb ANN female but in separate bag this time.

All other fishes are still very active and looked none the worse, but should be hungry by the time they reach you.

Here's a shot of all the EBT fry


If someone can translate what's stated on the 5gm sachet of 'Japanese Yellow Power', I'd appreciate it.

As usual, all images are clickable.




Zul will be updating you on the shipping duration and further details where applicable.

Zul, thanks for the favor. It's good to have friends when I'm stuck only with a 24hour day. :wink:

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## RonWill

One more thought on the way things were done...

I believe that the layer of filter pad did help in maintaining unhindered breathability of the bags, hence allowing the fishes to survive in such compacted living space.

Together with a box that doesn't seal tight, I can't think of another packing method that resolves the issue of gaseous exchange.

Of course, since this is my maiden voyage, I'm sure there are better approaches that old geezers swear by. If so, please share... personally, I'd love to hear about it.

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## zmzfam

Kindness begets kindness.... of course I'm obliged to help friends out in need.

Tom,
I post the package out on Monday 21 June 2004 @ 1630 hrs local time. Since the fry has hatched, it was decided best to fly them first class - I post them using the fastest air service available - the Singapore Speedpost.

Package weighs at around 515g and postage cost $50 exact. ETA will be 2-4 days according to counter staff. Not sure whether there will be internal postal delay in UK, but I suspect not.

Here's the url to track the status : http://www.speedpost.com.sg/online/result.asp

Ron, since the fishes survived 1 week inside the breather bags, I think next time they can travel second class. ETA for normal airmail to UK is 10 days.

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## RonWill

> Here's the url to track the status : http://www.speedpost.com.sg/online/result.asp


Zul, I hit the link and got this message...
Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a000d' 
Type mismatch: 'UBound' 
/online/result.asp, line 68
To do a '*Track & Trace*', we need to fill in an 'Item Number'.

While at their page, I realized that any package that's 500gm (exactly) and below is a $8 saving (maybe I should have sucked out some water first  :Laughing:  )

For personal reference (and curiousity), I tested for more shipping quotes to the UK...
@ 1~500gm
Speedpost WorldWide Standard - AIR Parcel 7-10 DAYS $22.00
Speedpost WorldWide Courier (Package) Between 02 to 04 days $42.00

@ 515gm (actually from 501~1000gm***)
Speedpost WorldWide Standard - AIR Parcel 7-10 DAYS $27.50
Speedpost WorldWide Courier (Package) Between 02 to 04 days $50.00
***the next scale @ 1001gm is $33 & $58 respectively.

If in reality, that 'Standard' shipping max out at 10 days, then yes, we can consider it for our next trial.

Tom, shoot me an update when the package arrives (then we'll know how long it *really* takes)

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## zmzfam

> Originally Posted by zmzfam
> 
> Here's the url to track the status : http://www.speedpost.com.sg/online/result.asp
> 
> 
> Zul, I hit the link and got this message...
> Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a000d' 
> Type mismatch: 'UBound' 
> /online/result.asp, line 68
> To do a '*Track & Trace*', we need to fill in an 'Item Number'.


Use this url instead http://www.speedpost.com.sg/online/online.asp and use this tracking number : ER002111137SG

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## blinkytom

Thanks very much for all your effort guys!! I really appreciate it and hopefully I can make it worth your while with what I send back. The next killie auctions start again in September and I should be able to get some nice fish for you. Just as a taster, this is a sample of what was at the last auction I went to. http://www.killifish.f9.co.uk/Killif...ction_2004.htm

I'll let you know when they get here, the tanks are ready and waiting.

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## Slaigar

Hello Ronnie and Zul,
You guys are organizing this like a military operation! I never heard of breathable bags until this topic and pictured them as bags with tiny holes in them. So from the thread, is it alright to assume that these are bags that have thin plastic to allow oxygen to pass in and out? How much are these compared to the convential clear plastic bag?

Hello Tom,
I could probably never go to killifish auction without ending up broke. Not only am I a bad bargainer but also a compulsive buyer  :Laughing:  . Keep an eye out for rare bettas when you go to your next auction!

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## stormhawk

Mark, wild bettas don't do well in breather bags. They require some form of atmosphere to survive so in their case, a normal plastic packet would do with some oxygen pumped in. Another thing, wild bettas don't take well to shipping. May experience some major losses but then again, they usually pack 'em in the hundreds!  :Rolling Eyes: 

Zul, what did you declare the package as? Live Fish For Study? I'm curious because I know SingPost doesn't allow shipping of live fish via mail.

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## zmzfam

> Zul, what did you declare the package as? Live Fish For Study? I'm curious because I know SingPost doesn't allow shipping of live fish via mail.


Hehehe....can you mail eggs to your friends?... :wink:

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## Slaigar

> May experience some major losses but then again, they usually pack 'em in the hundreds!


Jianyang, 
Thanks for the information. I did not think casualities could be so high. Well, atleast I can dream... hehe.

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## RonWill

> I really appreciate it and hopefully I can make it worth your while with what I send back


Tom, it was more in exchange of goodwill and fun that prompted me to experiment. A copy of Steve's article would be a real bonus. Fret not on what to return, ya?

BTW, I had to mop the floor while going through the auction list  :Opps:   :Laughing: 

September eh... let's me work on the budget (or maybe I should tell the Mrs. that she's getting a 'pay cut'!  :Laughing:   :Laughing:  )




> I never heard of breathable bags until this topic and pictured them as bags with tiny holes in them. So from the thread, is it alright to assume that these are bags that have thin plastic to allow oxygen to pass in and out? How much are these compared to the convential clear plastic bag?


Mark, yeah, these bags are very very thin and has a satiny-smooth feel to it, liken to baby-soft skin! It gives me the jitters, handling it with klutzy fingers, but I'm glad that none punctured.

I reckon that such thin-walled material will actually allow gaseous exchange but spare me the techno questions as to how or why it does... I'm on a learning curve and it's my first time too!




> what did you declare the package as? ... because I know SingPost doesn't allow shipping of live fish via mail.


_(Ron gives JY a couple of good slaps, not because he asked, but for lack of tact in a public domain!   )_

eh Jian Yang, let's just say that Zul acted on my instructions (and I haven't been entirely truthful :wink :Smile:  What concerns me at this point is the survival of those "eggs"... since they haven't had a bite for the past 10 days!

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## blinkytom

Mark, Its rarely money I run out of at killie auctions as the prices are so good, its more often than not that I run out of tank space!! The _Bettas_ were very nice looking but as I already have 4 different species (_Betta edithae, picta, simplex, rutilans_) I decided not to buy any more.




> Tom, it was more in exchange of goodwill and fun that prompted me to experiment. A copy of Steve's article would be a real bonus. Fret not on what to return, ya?


Even so I'd still like for you to feel like you've got something back aswell as experience  :Wink:  I always have a great time at killie auctions, I travel to most of the ones I go to with Steve and another friend. They introduced me to the world of killie auctions and have helped me a great deal along the way. You can imagine the look on my face when I first saw a 3 metre long table covered in bags of killies  :Surprised:  

I've found a service from Royal Mail which allows you to send packages up to 30kg internationally for about £20. 30kg is a LOT of killies. Maybe that service would be a better way to go if a few of you would like fish from an auction over here. The delivery aim is 6-8 days which should hopefully be suitable. This service wasn't advertised very well on the Royal Mail website, the only way I've found to get to it is through the postage options calculator. My only problem with sending a bigger box of fish is explaining that the box really is full of fish eggs (  :Wink:  ) and nothing else.

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## stormhawk

Ron, okay okay very "paiseh" (local speech for embarassed) for saying that bit out. *zips up*  :Laughing:  

Tom, gee, I would be drooling if I saw a 3 meter long table covered with killies. I was already excited when I first set eyes on the "mahjong" table covered with tubs of killies at our first gathering.  :Very Happy:

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## RonWill

> Even so I'd still like for you to feel like you've got something back as well as experience


Tom, knowing that the fishes arrive well and healthy, is a big kick for me, since I get to prove my packing method works! The next challenge would be double the fishes with half the postage!  :Shocked:   :Laughing:  

I can only imagine what a full-fledge killie auction can be... must be really fun  :Exclamation:  but the mouth-watering list doesn't indicate whether the species are sold in pairs or trios. What is the norm?

BTW, Steve got you into muddy waters with killifishes, isn't it payback time, pulling him into the forum?  :Twisted Evil: 




> I've found a service from Royal Mail which allows you to send packages up to 30kg internationally for about £20. 30kg is a LOT of killies.


It's difficult convincing counter staff that you're not sending ostrich-sized fish eggs! Given the lukewarm response to the egg-order exercise, something affordable in the 3kg region will be more than adequate.

I just did a trace on the package but unlike Fedex, the details are rather vague.

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## zmzfam

> I just did a trace on the package but unlike Fedex, the details are rather vague.


Hmmm... looks like the package is already in UK and onward towards Tom. I'm just as anxious as Ron to know how well the "eggs" travelled.

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## victri

Hi,

I've been reading this thread with much interest. A friend in New York is asking me to send some fish over to him and these bags sound like the answer to my worries.

Can anyone direct me to where I can buy them in Singapore?

Thanks!

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## blinkytom

Hi Everyone

The package arrived at about 10.45am today. This was a suprise to me as I'd checked the tracking last night and it hadn't changed since the day they were sent.

All the fish were alive and kicking  :Very Happy:  but unfortunately none of the eggs/fry survived  :Crying:  I was very impressed by the way you packed them, it took me ages to get into them all. The filter pad wrapping seems to allow breatheablility just fine. 

The Goa killies seemed to take the shipping ordeal best, they were active and very perky in the bags. The _GAR_ were quite active but also very skitish. The _ANN_ were very subdued and took a few minutes to come around. They're all in their new homes now and enjoyed their first meal (grindal worms and BBS) in a while.

Ronnie, nearly all the lots in one of our killie auctions are pairs, probably about 90%. The remaining lots are usually trios or occasionally reverse trios.

I'll do my best to get Steve over to the forum but he changed jobs only last week and is busy getting to grips with that at the moment. 

I'll have to look into this Royal Mail service (International Standard) a bit further. I did a postage options calculator thingy for a 500g package to Singapore and one of the options was £20 for a package up to 30kg delivering in 6-8 days. I think it may be £20 whatever the size of package.

Thanks again for all your efforts.

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## zmzfam

> All the fish were alive and kicking


That's good news Tom. Alive but very hungry!




> ... but unfortunately none of the eggs/fry survived


Well, there were no eggs - only all frys. If you had seen the photo posted by Ronnie, all the eggs has hatched prior to re-packing on Monday(SG time). I was hoping Lady Luck would shine on us more, but I guess the frys died of starvation.

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## RonWill

Tom, the tracking feature has room for improvement but I'm glad the fishes are ok.

We will attempt eggs & fry again in subsequent trials, but I think they were stressed-out more by the 100% water-change/repack, rather than the journey. Since their egg-sac were depleted, they could have died of hunger, as Zul suggested.

Wished I swapped some free-swimming fry for developed eggs but I didn't have any at hand (killies are not egg-vending machines!). Thinking of hungry fry, an  :Idea:   :Idea:  came up... wonder if they'll do better if I squirt in some paramecium.

Was there any damage to the foam box or sign of water leakage? I hear that the plane's cargo sections are not pressurized and some of the bags are packed limply, to allow for air expansion, I think (otherwise, these bags will over-expand and burst).

I did a few sets of calculations for *Royal Mail Postage*. Their Airmail Small Packets allows tapes and trade samples.

Royal Mail Airmail Small Packets - Delivery Aim 5 Days
499gm - £5.02
501gm - £5.20
550gm - £5.56
999gm - £9.52
1001gm - £9.70

The charges for "International Signed For Airmail Letter - Delivery Aim 5 Days" isn't that outrageous either but only "Signed parcels" are trackable, not "Airmail Small Packets".

International "Signed For items" are electronically tracked only up to the point they leave the UK.... not much point since you don't know when the parcel arrive at their destination.

Living Creatures...
"_The following are accepted: bees; silkworms; leeches and certain parasites, destroyers of noxious pests, and other insects sent to or from officially recognised institutions. In addition the following may be sent to destinations within the United Kingdom - mealworms, earthworms, caterpillars, ragworms, pupae and chrysalids, lugworms, maggots and fish fry and eggs_"

I used rubber bands to secure the bags, so that you can reuse them instead of cutting through a knot and there a few extra new bags on the side (in case you missed it).

Let's see how well your new additions acclimatize to the new water.

Zul, we have to count our blessings... fry aside, the rest of the fishes did very well and that's very encouraging. Let me work on other packing alternatives :wink:

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## RonWill

> I've been reading this thread with much interest. A friend in New York is asking me to send some fish over to him and these bags sound like the answer to my worries.
> 
> Can anyone direct me to where I can buy them in Singapore?


Hi "Is-That-Your-Real-Name" Victri,
How could I have missed your post?  :Opps:  but great if our replies solve your problems.

These shipping bags are not the solution to all species; those with splines that can puncture bags or labrynth (sp?) species like bettas and gouramis (sp?).

Plenty of online stores if you can wait and I believe one of our forumers got it from Aquabid's *Shipping Supplies* section.

The ones I used in this thread are about 3" x 7" and comes in a strip of 5 bags. I have extras of these and are available at $5 per strip. If you don't need alot of it, then drop me an email.

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## shortman

Ronnie,

As far as I konw there are two sources

http://www.novalek.com/kpd74.htm
http://www.theshippingbarn.com/polybags.htm

and it is cheaper to get from the source.

Best Regards

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## victri

Oh, my real name is Vic (as in my signature).

So I guess there isn't any store that sells it locally? I'll take a look at the links. Thanks. The heads-up on the spiny fish is a great piece of info to keep in mind. 

I'll contact you once I know how many I need. If it's a lot, I'll order from the online stores. Thanks for your offer.

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## RonWill

> I'll contact you once I know how many I need. If it's a lot, I'll order from the online stores. Thanks for your offer.


Vic, if you're ordering from the 2nd link, ie. 'The Shipping Barn', let me know. They are affiliated with 'The Bug Farm' and I _may_ want to increase my 'live-food culture' collection.

I won't consider their Wingless Fruitfly (_D. melanogaster_) or Flightless Fruitfly (_D. studevent hydei_). In our warm weather, both these species will adapt, develop functional wings and fly off (don't ask me how I found out) but their _Daphnia magna_ & _pulex sp_. starter culture looks tempting enuff.

They have Kordon Breathing Bags too (4 x 8 inches @ US$13.50/100 's). IMHO, this is the best size for bagging individual fishes or one small non-aggressive pair and oh... did I mention that their *mini basters* looks tempting for non-contamination of cultures?

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## zmzfam

> ... I'll order from the online stores. Thanks for your offer.


Vic, if you're ordering from overseas, do post your intention here as some members can ride on your order and share shipping cost.

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## victri

> Vic, if you're ordering from overseas, do post your intention here as some members can ride on your order and share shipping cost.


Great idea! I'll take a look through the online stores. Will post if I decide to order online.

 :Very Happy:

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## blinkytom

Ronnie, the box was completely intact and there were no signs of it being bashed about. The wasn't any water leakage but the bags did feel a little clamy, is this normal?

My reason for looking at services other than AirMail small packets was so I could use a bigger box for more fish. Your box seemed to be at its capacity with 10 bags, weighing in just over 500g. I don't know how I will fit twice that many fish into a "small packet". 

Our tracking system doesn't seem to be much good. All they really seem to do is get a signiture at the recieving end to confirm the package has been delivered. 

So fish fry and eggs are allowed within the UK but it doesn't say anything about sending overseas. When I first started sending eggs, the people at the Post Office would always check whether the recipient country could recieve the eggs and I never had any problems. So if fish eggs and fish fry are lumped together in the rule book I would guess you are allowed to send fish fry overseas. Even so I'm not sure about labeling them as fry because it may attract attention from the customs workers.

All the bags are intact and ready to be reused. I also ordered some Kordon 4x8" bags from someone of Aquabid so I have plenty now.

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## RonWill

Tom, I can't imagine what 'clamy' looks or feel like. Could you describe further?

The unmodified Hikari foam box, at almost twice the height of the one you received, can fit in about 20 bags and is still within "small packet" catagory. Need one? :wink:

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## blinkytom

Ronnie, 'clamy' means that it feels slightly damp to touch, not wet but not dry either.

Don't worry about sending the unmodified box, I'll have a good look round the house to find something useable. Now my exams are finished I have about two and a half months off school so I'll have plenty of time to make one even.

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## bobalston

A lot of folks here in the US use the 3-inch bags, one fish per bag, and then put both bags in a 4-inch bag. I think these are often the non breathable ones. But the same should work for breathable, as the water amount is likely the same (small amount of water) and just the air pocked eliminated from the bags.

Bob

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## RonWill

Tom, so long as the bags aren't leaking, we're safe. I'm guessing that the variation in atmospheric pressure causes micro-droplets to 'bleed' from the bag (  :Question:  anyone want to hazard another guess  :Question:  )

I collected a pretty huge foam box from the LFS. Let me know how you wish to modify it.

Bob, double-bagging is common practice when dealers deliver fishes to the stores but AFAIK, breathers work only if a space is maintained between bags. That's why foam peanuts, newspaper and loose packing material is recommended.

The other part I don't fully understand is whether if there's gaseous exchange without water.

As far as I'm concerned, it's still best keeping to 'one fish per bag', especially for rarer fishes.

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## whuntley

Do me a favor and check the breather bags out with the folks at:

http://www.thefishwizards.com/html/fish4sale.htm

Tony Terceira is a long-time supporter of killifish and author of the great book, Killifish, Their Care and Breeding 1974. Pisces Publishing.

In addition to selling bags, he can give the latest on just how best to pack them. You have to e-mail them for prices and sizes, but the addy is in the web page cited.

BTW, I have no commercial connection, but Tony and I are old net friends with a common photography interest. He is a past Chairman of the AKA and very expert killifish breeder.

Wright

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## stormhawk

Just to drag out this thread out of the dustbox, I'm wondering about the article Tom mentioned.

Tom, has your friend done up the article yet and yes, have you tried sending out the fish back to Ron? I'm really curious as to the end result. I understand you're around but hopefully this post will trigger off a response from you.

Wright, not be a damper but I sent an email to Tony some time back regarding a fish ad he posted on AB. Probably his email client isn't working or something but there has been no reply at all from that email I sent about 7 months ago? Surely he would have the basic courtesy to reply the query even if the shipment is not possible?  :Confused: 

On the other note, I am getting a copy of his book via the good graces of a friend in Michigan who's sending me one that he found in a bookstore dealing in second-hand books.

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## blinkytom

Hello Jianyang

I haven't been in touch with Steve for a few months now. I'll shoot him off an email later. As you can see I'm still about but a little quiet (ok, I guess little quiet is an understatement!!). I will be making a return shipment in the near future, still a risk of frost in the UK but this seems to be improving. 

Just as a side line, I have a number of young _Fp. gardneri_ N'sukka Blue (Pat Coleman strain) from the pair Ron sent sexing out. Do you guys have these established in Singapore?

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## CM Media

> Just as a side line, I have a number of young _Fp. gardneri_ N'sukka Blue (Pat Coleman strain) from the pair Ron sent sexing out. Do you guys have these established in Singapore?


Hi Tom,

Here, we are having problem to get them to spawn. Their size is huge but hardly give fertile eggs even the female are of good size. I've pass my remaining fish to Ron.  :Crying:

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## RonWill

> I haven't been in touch with Steve for a few months now. I'll shoot him off an email later


 Yes Tom, please do. I've been left wondering if that shipping article made it to the press. Would be great if other hobbyists were involved in the 'breather experiment', so we can examine alternative methods.




> As you can see I'm still about but a little quiet (ok, I guess little quiet is an understatement!!)


 Likewise here but so long as you and the killies are doing fine, that's what matters. I've been busy with work, the two multi-tier racks, breeding cories, starting new live-food cultures and of course, experimenting with different packing methods for pygmy cories (I'm using young _C. habrosus_ as lab rats).




> I will be making a return shipment in the near future


 I'd be delighted with that, Tom, and a most appreciated gesture. Drop me a note when you've got a box that's good to go.

Meanwhile, a 2nd Gathering (much like the one we held in 2003) is on the drawing board and we're hoping to time it with Aquarama 2005 (26~29th May). If we're lucky, killie-keepers from the Asia-Pacific belt can also attend the gathering and share their experience with us.

Later on, I'll be running a recruitment drive and selection for Group/Species Co-ordinators, and also more participants, which translates to more tank space available for species maintenance. (so now you know why I've been quiet <VBG>)

As for the _Fp. gardneri_ N'sukka (Pat Coleman's Blue Phenotype), your pair was from the same brood but ironically, both Au and myself couldn't get a single viable fry (no kidding!!). At close to 10cm, they are not small and definitely mature, yet all collected eggs get fungicised. I'm uncertain where the problem lies but perhaps they need a woman's gentle touch <grin>.

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## selena

*KILLIES LADIES BEWARE*




> As for the Fp. gardneri N'sukka (Pat Coleman's Blue Phenotype), your pair was from the same brood but ironically, both Au and myself couldn't get a single viable fry (no kidding!!). At close to 10cm, they are not small and definitely mature, yet all collected eggs get fungicised. I'm uncertain where the problem lies but perhaps they need a woman's gentle touch <grin>.





Should Ronnie sweet-talked ( he is very good in it) to you, BEWARE. Don't look into his eyes, you might (blur blur) end up with a pair in your tank  :Laughing:

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## stormhawk

:Laughing:  Ronnie's a sweet talker but he has the interests of the hobby at heart. It would be good to have the ladies help out a little though.  :Very Happy:

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## RonWill

> ...but perhaps *they* need a woman's gentle touch
> 
> 
> 
> Should Ronnie sweet-talked ( he is very good in it) to you, BEWARE. Don't look into his eyes, you might (blur blur) end up with a pair in your tank


Before the ladies misconstrue my post (and intentions  :Shocked:  ), the 'they' refer to the fishes. I'm no newcomer to breeding fishes but the N'sukka (Blue Pheno) really baffle me. Au should be equally puzzled too, why the eggs are non-viable.

As for charming the ladies, I've my hands full with 3 at home. That ought to keep me happy and contented  :Wink: 

Selena, will you be visiting this weekend? Let me know so I can pre-pack a pair of the N'sukka.

If the other ladies; ie. Lily, Esther and Joanne are keen to help backup and breed some non-annuals species, the effort will be appreciated. I need assistance with;
_Aphyosemion ahli_
_Ap. australe_ Cape Esterias EBT 96-27
_Paraphyosemion mirabile moense_ Nguti HAH-98, 
_Epiplatys togolensis_

Not releasing any _Chromaphyosemion bitaeniatum_ or _splendopleure_ for the moment as these will make their appearance during our *tentative 2nd Gathering*. (besides, the sub-adults have just started coloring up and I want to enjoy them first)

To get back on topic, let's just await for further updates from Tom.

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## selena

> Selena, will you be visiting this weekend? Let me know so I can pre-pack a pair of the N'sukka.


Can't refuse Ronnie when he sweet-talked to me and I blurred blurred end up taking a pair of N'sukka home.

After climatising the pair, I put them in a partition barely 5" x 12" ( I wasn't prepare to see any action)between the _Lokoja_ and _striatum_. The two acted like newly-wedded, following each other and exploring the area. I did some housekeeping, giving them some worms and top-up with overnight water. This tank does not have any filtration, only an air stone and is share by 4 species. Anybody who spawned will be located a wider space and those that doesn't will have the male and female sectioned up. 

OK cut the story short; I collected one egg an hour later after I threw in the mop. Don't hold your hope too high, this one and only egg she has been keeping inside her IS A YEAR OLD  :Rolling Eyes:  

Will check the mop again tonight.


Selena

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## stormhawk

> Ronnie, Steve's article was in PFK. It's purpose was to destroy the myths about Killies being hard to keep and only for the experienced hobbyist. If you promise not to distribute it (or tell PFK) I'll scan it for you.


Tom, if you're still eyeballing this thread, which issue of PFK was it and what's the author's full name? Instead of just Steve that is. I wish to read up on that article.




> Fish heading back to you will be-
> 
> 1 pair A. primigenium Kanda GJS 00-18
> 1 pair A. riggenbachi Yellow (99% sure it's the Dibeng import to the UK in '01 but I recieved them with only the "Yellow" label so can't say for sure)
> 1 pair or maybe trio A. spoorenbergi (Aquarium strain)
> 
> Also having a stab at breeding Fp. sp. GS 2 and A. gabunense boehmi for the first time, any eggs produced will be heading your way too.
> 
> If anyone wants them I also have plenty of Endler's livebearers, Girardinus metallicus (Black Chin Livebearer) and Ameca splendens (an endangered Goodeid) that can be put in too. I'm assuming these will ship as well as the killies as they're Livebearing Toothcarps and killies are Egg-laying Toothcarps.


Nice list of fish that's supposed to head back to Ron but I've yet to see any turn up. Probably the box got sent to Siberia??  :Laughing:

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