# Planted Tanks > Plant Talk >  New Tank Setup- Help...

## Blades

Hi Guys , i have just setup a new planted tank and need some advice.

The tank is 4 days old and have planted quite a few plants already together with 6 neons and about 10 malayan shrimps.

CO2-Injected with dennerle deponit as a base and holland sand on top of it.

I have been using the dennerle's range of products and have a few questions with regards to them.

I am adding FB7 daily into the new tank as recommended by dennerle. and i also added TR7 on the 2nd day so far. Dosing with A1 everyday since yesterday.Have also done a 30% water change yesterday

At wat point in time do i stop adding the FB7 &amp; TR7 pls? thanks :Smile:

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## David

hi blade....is the FB7 the liquid bateria starter or is it the water conditioner for fresh tap water?

Which ever it is, if the FB7 is a bateria starter, you can stop after about 1 week of cycling and let nature takes it course. If it is the water conditioner, ...well that is entirely up to you as it is needed for treating impurities and chemicals present that are hostile to fish. It also depends where your water source comes from....usually if you are staying in a landed or some lower floor apartment, the tap water is usually from ground pipe and it may be best to treat it before water change.

If you are staying on higher floors where the water cames from roof tanks, chances likely you need not have to treat the water. As for me, I am staying on the 12th floor and water change is straight from tap to tank.

The TR7 is basically black water extract for water conditioning to replicate the nature water in certain south american rivers...so on this its entirely up to you when you want to stop

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## vinz

Ummm... you really shouldn't have fishes in there if your tank is only 4 days old. The tank isn't cycled yet and I'm not sure how much faster FB7 will accelerate it.

By the way, the numbers behind the name of the product indicate dosing frequency... so FB7 is once every 7 days.

Stop adding A1 fertiliser for now. Your plants are not settled in yet will not be using up the fert, which makes it available to algae. You should also consider other fertilisers. If you're sticking to the Dennerle range, consider S7, E15 and V30. Gold7 is optional in my opinion. Dennerle has a chart that indicates the water conditioners and fert to use for a brand new planted tank. Go look it up at www.dennerle.com under 'water care' under 'fertilisation and maintainance'. A1 is for very fert demanding tanks.

I'm curious, why did you choose to use Dennerle's products?

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## Blades

Hiya all , thanks for the advise. Using Dennerle's range due to its reputation etc etc. are there better ferts and stuff out there in the market? Im actually quite open to opinions and suggestions. Quite a newbie here as you might have figured. Cheers!

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## FC

Hi Blades,

I started to use Seachem products about 2 months ago. They are very popular among AQ people, I think, as they are mentioned very often. For my tank, the products seems to work but still not good enough. For some reasons, I feel something is missing in them for my plants. I will wait for another 3 months.

I guess the reason for its' popularity is due to its' good reputation and customiseable dosing system. It comes with Flourish (concentrated macros &amp;amp; micros) but very little K+ &amp;amp; Mg and slightly below ideal iron proportion. There is where Seachem let you decide. Normally, depending on the plant used, one can choose to supplement it with Flourish K+, Flourish Fe and/or Epsom salt, etc. For more expeirience hobbists, they add also NO3, PO4 whereever the level gets low or by observing the plant reaction.

All liquid fert can be added according to instruction, by plant types or by seeing the top new leafs grown at the tip of stem plants or about 5 days old new leaf of rossette for deficiency or over-dosing or other condition like lighting, etc.

I am also using hw ferro vit but I am a bit concern about its' high Cu, and other non-ferrous metal in it. For that, I mixed it with Seachem as it has less in that areas.

I had used Tetra and JBL too, not bad, I have good success with them. However, they are not as exciting as Seachem (in rooms for play). Dennerle, good... for short and medium term (they actually cost less, considering that they have good chance of helping newbies to succeed) but in the long run...??? (I am not there yet).

Confused? Me too! This only about liquid fert. That's what this hobby is about and that's where one can keep the mind tickering. It is so much fun where experimentation is endless... one would often aim higher. Many hobbists told me that they would be bored without it and non of them would say that they are 100% satisfied with their tank and would do nothing more to improve it. One things for sure, this hobby improves one's knowledge about the nature, patient, analytical skills, etc.


Have fun.


 :Smile:

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## Blades

Hi , My tank has just crossed the 6 day mark and all looks good (meaning no dead plants &amp;amp; no dead fish!) plants seems to be growing esp the lotus. Can see new shoots coming out already! yippie... Water has also become clearer but not cyrstal clear yet!

Planning to do a 30% water change tomorrow and adding sme more FB7 after that.

I have got a picture of my tank but i dunt know how to post it here. Anyone can help with that pls?

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## vinz

Congratulations! It's always a thrill to see the plants doing well.

For posting pictures, please click here for more details.

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## David

hi blades

how big a tank are we talking about here....its only been 6 days and a 30% water change maybe a bit much as your tank has not matured. It may be best to do a 15 to 20% water change and it may be a good time to consider a NH and NO test kit.

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## Blades

Mine's roughtly a 120L tank. Its the Juwel Rio125. will do a smaller % change then.

Why do i see bubbles on the surface of the water? lots of them and they dunt burst. shoul di be worried?

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## David

are they sort of tiny bubbles in clusters and mostly at the rim of the tank where the water line is....that is a tell tail sign of NH build up.....it really would be a good time to invest in an NH and NO test kit as your tank is in the first half of the nitrogen cycle. it is best to do less % water change but more frequent....

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## Blades

The bubbles are like all over the surface of the water and a thin film of sumthing has formed. While the filter is switched on and there is water circulation , the water surface doesnt move. Bad or normal for a tank which is cycling?

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## Allen_1971

blades, 

are you talking about an oily surface on the water? If so, you can probably invest in a surface skimmer to solve the issue. The air bubbles (from your plants) are there cuz they trapped under the &amp;quot;oily&amp;quot; surface.

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## Blades

Allen , you are prob right about the oily surface. Will try to scoup the oily stuff off tonite. The juwel tank comes with a surface skimmer built-in but i dunt think its working that well , i guess.
any good way to manually remove the surface junk?


btw , just bought a few bumblebee shrimps &amp;amp; toger shrimps from Samyick at its marine parade branch. cost $1.50 per shrimp!! so expensive for shrimp! hehehe

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## Blades

Just found that 1 have 3 dead shrimps! sob sob and a dead cardinal. I think its due to the maturing process of the tank.

Tested my tank for PH and KH and the results are as follows:

PH : 6.9
KH : 3

Is a KH of 3 a normal level for singapore tap water?
Also , are my levels in the tank ok for now? while it matures?

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## PeterGwee

Don't assume Singapore tap water KH is 3...some ain't 3 lor...zero also have leh...LOL...just measure and calculate.

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## Blades

Measured my tank and the KH is 3. Tot it was a normal KH for Singapore Tap Water.

So are all the levels ok for my tank? should i raise my BPS to increase the PPM?

Also , for a 125L tank (33 Gallons?) , is 2 x 20w tubes with reflectors sufficent?

Thanks for all the help guys..

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## Blades

My tank is now in its 14th day and the ammonia levels are dropping. Nitrite levels are really high now and my guess is that its spiking. hopefully it will go down before any of my fishes/shrimp kaput.

So far in the 14 days , i have got 2 dead neons and 3 dead shrimp. hope it stay that way.

Plants are doing ok and growing/spreading pretty much.

Tank is 33 Gallons with CO2 of about 2 bps and about 60watts of lights.

Ph is about 6.6 - 6.7 and Kh is about 3-4

Right now , there is an outbreak of white spots and 3 lemon tetras and 1 harlequin is infected. Have put in 6 tbps of aquarium salt so i hope that solves the problem soon.

Have also installed a stand-alone UV which is switched on 24hrs now to help fight the white spots. Will reduce UV to about 10hrs (at night with lights off) after the white spot problem is solved as a preventive measure.

Any comments or suggestions to further improve my set-up pls? any comments and tips are very much appreciated! Thanks!

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## PeterGwee

Do water changes to control the level of nitrite so that it is not so toxic to the fishes.

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## DEA

when u say high nitrite
how high is high?
regardless, the salt will alleviate nitrite poisoning
you don't have to panic about the nitrite
take it easy, wait for the white spot to go away, just sit there and watch
if you feel like adding more things, slap your hands  :Cool: 
water changes are always welcome too
you can do as many as you like assuming you redose the proportional amount of salt

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## Blades

Found a couple of fishes swimming at the surface gasping for air i guess. Is this due to lack of oxygen in the water overnite when the lights/CO2 are off or is this due to the high nitrite levels in the water?

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## Allen_1971

ok I'm a bit blur in the mornings... do you switch off your CO2 at night? The gasping for air could either be due to nitrite or CO2... I'm thinking that its not likely to be CO2 as your Juwel tank has a built in overflow system right (at least I think thats what u meant by a built in surface skimmer?). So I think you should check your nitrite levels, and do a 40-50% water change if needed

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## chongj88

> ----------------
> On 12/11/2002 8:38:46 AM 
> 
> Found a couple of fishes swimming at the surface gasping for air i guess. Is this due to lack of oxygen in the water overnite when the lights/CO2 are off or is this due to the high nitrite levels in the water?
> 
> 
> ----------------


Hi, I think you should do partial water changes regardless... If your CO2 is off during the night, then it shouldn't be due to CO2 poisoning.

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## Blades

Hi , my tank dunt have an overflow system. The filter sits in a corner of the tank and it has a surface skimmer which leads to the filter.

and yes , i switch off the lights and CO2 at nite.

Will do a 30% water change tonite. hope it helps.

Would you guys recommend putting in an airstone at nite? so that oxygen levels are ok in the morning?

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## chongj88

> ----------------
> On 12/11/2002 11:04:50 AM 
> 
> ...
> Would you guys recommend putting in an airstone at nite? so that oxygen levels are ok in the morning?
> ----------------


Airstone might not be a bad idea. However, before I got my solenoid, I had my CO2 on 24hrs in my 3ft (has abt 60 shrimps, 50 cardinals and 5 otos) without any CO2 poisoning (abt 2bps). By the way, are your plants bubbling? I understand that you can only see O2 bubbles from plants only if your water is already saturated with O2. I could be wrong...

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## Blades

Nope , my plants do not bubble. What could i be missing for it to bubble?

Lights : 56watts (All tubes with reflectors which will give x 1.5 the total
watts?)

Using Arcadia Freshwater and tropical plants tubes

Co2 : 2 bps 

Above 2 are switched on from 10am to 10pm daily.

The plants are growing pretty fast but no bubbles.

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## Allen_1971

Blades, 

your lighting hours are a bit long (12hours continuous) and your lights a bit weak for a 120L... When we consider wattage we never consider the reflector, mainly cuz reflector is sort of assumed. Overall its better to increase your lights and shorted the hours than vice versa.

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## Blades

Does the plants only bubble when the water is saturated with O2? If no bubbles , would it mean that there is not enuff oxygen dissolved in the water?

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## tawauboy

if you do not see bubbling, it just means that the water is not saturated with o2. to get o2 saturation, you need sufficient light and nutrients.

depending on your bioload, there could be sufficient o2 for tank inmates. if there is not enough o2 in your tank, the tank inmates will be gasping near the water surface.

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## Blades

ok , thanks for the tips. right now , I will be working on :

i) to get my tank stabilized
ii) white spots eradicated
iii)very low ammonia , nitrite levels

I hope all this can be done in the next 1 or 2 weeks.

Normally tanks of my size would need about 1 month to stabilise? would frequent water changes extend the cycling period?

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## tawauboy

what are you using to eradicate white spots? salt or medication?

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## Blades

Salt bath , i added 1 tbsp for every 5 gallons... so i added 6 tbsp of aquarium salt to the tank. Also running an UV sterilizer for 24 hours to help combat the free swimming devils and other possible bad bacteria in my tank.

Planning to run my UV light after hours once the white spots goes away. 10 hours a nite enuff for preventive measures?

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## budak

Sorry for interjecting again, but why are quite a few people (apart from Discus die-hards) resorting to UV as a cure-all? Yes, UV systems kills free-swimming pathogens, but for the cost, isn't it better in the long run to exercise good husbandry (controlled feeding, regular water tests/changes, NO overcrowding, care in selecting fish at LFS etc)? 

I recently added a fan to lower my tank temperature from 30C to 26-27C. Not unexpectedly, a bit of whitespot became evident on some loaches and tetras. So I upped the salt dosage, did more regular water changes and the bugs went off after a week or so. I think if the fish are fairly healthy in the first place, they won't succumb to ich readily.

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## sLapshock

Sorry to interrupt. On the next monday i will start my project. And i will go to Nature Aquarium ( Which is said to have everything i need). 

Can you list what thing should i get. 

My budget is $200 

Tell me what Substrate should i buy, what gravel, and other essenntial things. 

Note that i only have 2ft tank. 

this is what already in my mind 

1.Eheim Internal filter -$20-40 
2.PL 2x36watts ( Is this enough to bubbles riccia) -$100 
3.? 
4.? 
5.? 
6.? 

.....

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## Allen_1971

> ----------------
> On 12/11/2002 12:27:17 PM 
> depending on your bioload, there could be sufficient o2 for tank inmates. if there is not enough o2 in your tank, the tank inmates will be gasping near the water surface.
> ----------------


Just a small note. If I remember correctly, CO2 toxicity is caused not so much by the lack of O2 in the water, but by high levels of CO2. As you can know, fish take in O2 and give out CO2... as do most living things. When high CO2 levels are present in the water, the exchange of CO2 (breathe out) for O2 (breathe in) is inefficient. As such CO2 begins to accumulate in the blood of the fish. This leads to their blood becoming more acidic, and in severe cases cause what is known as blood acidosis (which is ultimately what kills them). I believe the reason why fish gasp at the surface is not so much because there is more O2 there, but because there is less CO2 (due to higher levels of outgassing).

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## vinz

Allen,

You are right if it's due to overdose of CO2.

In overloaded (fish-load) and bare (or poorly planted) tanks with no aeration, it would be due to lack of oxygen in the water.

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## vinz

Blades,

High light plants need about 3W/Gallon. Also the case if you want riccia to pearl. As I understand, some forumers with short (height) tanks, can get pearling riccia with 2.somthing W/G of light and dosing potassium.

So your 33G tank needs about 99W of light.

Your CO2 is about 25 to 30ppm (based on your pH-KH measurements), on the high side but still tolerable for the fishes.

I think it's most likely nitrite poisoning getting to the gills of the fishes. Up the lights as soon as you can... the higher levels of O2 from photosynthesising plants will help the fish breathe. Get a bacteria seeding solution to accelerate the bacteria colonisation process.

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## bigjohnstud

Talking about O2, a thought just came to mind. Since the tank water needs to be saturated with O2 before bubbling occurs, why is it not a common practice to bubble O2 into a tank just like we bubble CO2 (diffuser, reactor etc)? This O2 will be good for both the flora and fauna right(algae included of course)?

Just thinking aloud...

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## Blades

Vinz , any recommendations for the seeding of bacteria? any particular brands?

For lights , I have 2 x 18W &amp;amp; 1 x 20W lights for my 2.5ft tank with 33G capacity.

Pure wattage = 56W
Reflector effect = x1.5?
Total = 84W?

Is the calculation correct?

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## bclee

> ----------------
> On 12/11/2002 2:52:15 PM 
> 
> Talking about O2, a thought just came to mind. Since the tank water needs to be saturated with O2 before bubbling occurs, why is it not a common practice to bubble O2 into a tank just like we bubble CO2 (diffuser, reactor etc)? This O2 will be good for both the flora and fauna right(algae included of course)?
> 
> Just thinking aloud...
> ----------------


Bubble O2? Buy another cylinder to inject O2... I don't think anyone will invest so much money just to see their plants bubble.

O2 beyond saturation in not needed for fishes. In fact there are claims that too high O2 is not good for plants in terms of O2 toxicity and nutrients oxidation.

If you are talking about using air pumps, you are likely to drive away the saturated O2... not to mention CO2... instead of doing any good.

BC

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## budak

Sorry for interjecting again, but i have been wondering, why does Technology rather Knowledge and Understanding seem to the preferred one-shot solution to achieving a goal? The latter can be attained via some research online at little cost, while hardware are costly investments that may only be part of the answer. 

Yes, technology (such as CO2 systems) has been invaluable in propagating the planted tank hobby, but if one can rely on it alone, any Dick with the $$$ would be able to do it. Granted, planted tanks are a wonder to behold, and many newbies want to quickly achieve the same look as those show tanks in LFS. But surely something that's worth attaining is worth the trouble of at least a little effort in seeking accumulated and readily available wisdom?

Budak in Luddite gear

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## vinz

> ----------------
> On 12/11/2002 2:52:15 PM 
> 
> Talking about O2, a thought just came to mind. Since the tank water needs to be saturated with O2 before bubbling occurs, why is it not a common practice to bubble O2 into a tank just like we bubble CO2 (diffuser, reactor etc)? This O2 will be good for both the flora and fauna right(algae included of course)?
> 
> Just thinking aloud...
> ----------------


Because O2 saturation is not a factor of a successful planted tank. It is just an indication that your plants are photosynthesising extremely well. Some ppl like their tanks to look like it's filled with 7-up, while some simply find that the constant busy streams of O2 detracts from the overall serenity of their aquascape.

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## chongj88

> ----------------
> On 12/11/2002 2:53:43 PM 
> 
> Vinz , any recommendations for the seeding of bacteria? any particular brands?
> 
> For lights , I have 2 x 18W &amp;amp;amp;amp; 1 x 20W lights for my 2.5ft tank with 33G capacity.
> 
> Pure wattage = 56W
> Reflector effect = x1.5?
> ...


Didn't know reflector can add to the effect. [ :Grin: ] I more kiasu, I measure by pure wattage. My 170l 3ft is running 4 x 36w PL while the newer 2ft (100l) is running 3 x 36w PL. So far, touch wood, no problems with algae infestation though the new tank has some brown algae (tank still being cycled).

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## vinz

> ----------------
> On 12/11/2002 2:53:43 PM 
> 
> Vinz , any recommendations for the seeding of bacteria? any particular brands?
> 
> For lights , I have 2 x 18W &amp;amp;amp;amp; 1 x 20W lights for my 2.5ft tank with 33G capacity.
> 
> Pure wattage = 56W
> Reflector effect = x1.5?
> ...


I never use seeding bacteria, so I can't recommend any. I usually wouldn't recommend seeding bacteria but in your case you need to get that nitrite level down ASAP.

Try to use a more reputable brand, especially one that has a good range planted tank products.

Reflectors-wise, someone else actually replied you earlier. The Watts per Gallon guideline assumes that reflectors will be used, so do not multiply your actual wattage.

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## Allen_1971

> ----------------
> Talking about O2, a thought just came to mind. Since the tank water needs to be saturated with O2 before bubbling occurs, why is it not a common practice to bubble O2 into a tank just like we bubble CO2 (diffuser, reactor etc)? This O2 will be good for both the flora and fauna right(algae included of course)?
> ----------------


I can think of a few reasons why this is not done...

1. Like Vinz mentioned... its simply not a criteria for healthy plants

2. At high levels of oxygen, it is actually toxic. I remember being surprised at learning this during my diving course (years ago). Can't remember the exact level but was something like 2 partial pressures (for humans)? gotta check the books to be sure... or maybe akoh will know offhand.

3. and this is probably the most important... O2 tanks are a *MAJOR* safety hazard... remember what happened in chemistry classes when you stuck a glowing splint into a testube of oxygen? Now imagine your home is one big test tube and you sort of imagine what could happen... I wouldn't be surprised if the resultant &amp;quot;explosion&amp;quot; took out a few floors.

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## vinz

Going on a extreme tangent here...

I wonder if there are quick change nozzles? We can have them in the house and if there's a fire, quickly change the fire fighting nozzle on to our CO2 tanks and use it to put out the fire.  :Razz:

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## bclee

No... but I know of one who uses a CO2 extinguisher for planted tank.

BC

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## vinz

BC... I'm kidding lah.  :Evil: 

Anyway, it won't be feasible for one simple reason... what if the fire occurred around the time we reach end of tank. [ :Knockout: ]

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## Allen_1971

haha if you're really desperate you could always smash your tank... lose one arowana save the house not bad hor [ :Grin: ] [ :Grin: ] [ :Grin: ]... assuming your fire is not electrical or grease related....

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## vinz

And provided the fire is close to the tank...

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## DEA

one more thing about bubbling
somethings with very big tanks and slow growing plants there is simply no way to achieve bubbling
if you're a diehard bubble seeker  :Smile:  you can use a shallow tank with low volume of water, strong lighting and plenty of egeria densa
instant bubbles

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## Blades

Cant find 'egeria densa' in the gallery. where can we buy this plant??? Is it a foreground plant?

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## Allen_1971

blades,

just do a search on the net... you can't miss it... quite a common plant. You've probably seen it before.

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## Blades

OK , got the picture now , i think i have a few of those in my tank already but no bubbles yet.

its placed at one side of the tank which is not directly under the lights. Doe it need to take root first and then it will bubble? cos it growing pretty fast in the tank.. just no bubbles... boo hoo...

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## vinz

Blades,

If you want your plants to bubble, you need to give them enough lights first. Then fert follows after that. Solve your light problem first then observe the results over a few days.

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## sLapshock

Why sia nobody reply me.. pity me abit la. I donnu about what substrate and base thing to use

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## Simon

slapshock, the guys may have miss yr posting.. but it will attract more attention if u create a thread of yr own

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## tawauboy

Blades,

do consider increasing your lights.

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## Blades

I am considerng my lighting but will look at it once my tank is stable.

As a status update, did a 20% water change last nite and also turned on the airstone after the co2 &amp;amp; lights went off.

Woke up tonite and not even a single fish is at the surface gasping for air. yeahhh!!

Plants are doing ok and fish/shrimp are also ok.

Ammonia levels have gone way down but nitirite levels still high. I am using the sera test kit and the nitrite levels came out deep red!

Crossing my fingers and hope that the levels go down quickly!

Can anyone tell me if malayan shrimp tend to die easily? found a dead shrimp today....

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## Allen_1971

Blades, 

Although you just did a water change, if your nitrite levels are high, you might wanna consider doing another change... and with more water say 30-40%. This should help reduce your nitrite levels.

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## Blades

Allen , changing so much water will lead to a longer cycle or it does not affect the cycle time?

Read sumwhere that the bacteria needed to convert nitrite to nitrate will only multiply fast if there is enough nitrite levels..

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## PeterGwee

It will slow it down slightly...but at least it will keep your fishes and shrimps alive...don't you want to keep them alive? [ :Grin: ]

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## Blades

Of course , will do another water change later tonite then.. at wat levels would nitrite be considered dangerous to fishes/shrimp?

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## Allen_1971

Like peter said... some impact, but imo, if your nitrite levels are high change water.... water is cheap, fish cost $$$ &amp;amp; bacteria free...

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## zac08

> ----------------
> On 12/11/2002 1:19:36 PM 
> 
> Sorry to interrupt. On the next monday i will start my project. And i will go to Nature Aquarium ( Which is said to have everything i need). 
> 
> 
> Can you list what thing should i get. 
> 
> 
> ...



You can consider the Dennerle substrate, about $40 - 55... (Get the pre-mixed one, already has gravel and fertilisers)

Unless you want a Driftwood set-up, this can be optional.

Also a DIY CO2 would be better as your budget is limited. Recipie for DIY CO2 is available easily on the net and on this forum too...

You may need an algae crew to be on standby, get the yamato shrimps or malayan shrimps and some otos or SAEs....

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## mrs budak

Wah piang eh, *koff koff* how come this generation want spoon-feeding hah? Dunno how to go library to borrow book can at least search archives right? Or can ask Chan at Nature... everything want others to specify, ownself do some homework lah...

mrs budak no patience liao....  :Mad:

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## budak

Can u spoonfeed me too please??  :Angel:  

IF you would excuse my mrs, slapshock, i think many issues encountered by newbies have been run through ad infinitum and ad nauseum in the forum, so a search through some of the old posts (and many recent ones) should yield the answers you need. But if you still have a particular problem that the old threads can't solve, bring it up and then we could all learn something as well. 

It's coming close to that time of the year, and I think it's good to remember that giving (info) is as rewarding as receiving it. I see quite a few have developed from &amp;quot;tellmes&amp;quot; to &amp;quot;tellyouwhat&amp;quot;, which is a sign that people are learning from their own experience.

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## mrs budak

Oh dar dar, spoon-feed u can but I'm still stuck at work. cry....  :Sad:

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## Blades

On another note , I have just changed 20-30% of water and added about 1.5 tbps of salt to continue the fight againts the damn white spots.

The symptoms seems to be reducing and I for one am very very glad.

Found another dead Malayan[ :Knockout: ] 

These fellows are knocking off one by one.

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## budak

not sure if anyone mentioned it, but invertebrates are known to be VERY sensitive to even low levels of nitrite and nitrate, so bear that in mind.

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## Blades

From what I read in the forum , basically nitrites will take care of itself in due time due to the bacteria converting the nitrites to nitrates.

As for Nitrates , the plants will use it up for fertilizers and the balance can be eliminated by freq water changes (20-30% every 2 weeks)

Correct me if I'm wrong?

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## budak

Blades, your tank is barely two weeks ago. The biological filter (the denitrifying bacteria) has barely begun. The maturing process can take up to a month or more, before NH4/NO2/NO3 levels recede to very low levels. So in the meantime, since you have a fair number of tank inhabitants, frequent water changes are needed to keep the N levels down.

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## Blades

Budak , I am doing a 20% water change every even day while waiting for the biological filter to kick in. Hope this is enuff water changes or chould i do a daily 20% water change?

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## vinz

Blades,

Settle your lights sooner. Without enough lights, your plants will not photosynthesise effectively, thus will not absorb as much nutrients including NH3. Which leaves a lot more NH3 to be converted to NO2.

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## Blades

Vinz , NH3 is nitrate?

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## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/12/2002 9:45:49 PM 
> 
> On another note , I have just changed 20-30% of water and added about 1.5 tbps of salt to continue the fight againts the damn white spots.
> 
> The symptoms seems to be reducing and I for one am very very glad.
> 
> Found another dead Malayan[] 
> 
> ...


Ah boy-boy ah, mrs budak wanna lecture u, your tank only 4 days old only and you throw in all the fish and shrimps, some more start pumping CO2 and all that. Number 1 rule in starting a new tank is to let water finish cycling first to establish nitrogen cycle (at least 1 week). The most is add 1 or 2 hardy fish, not 6 neons and 10 shrimps! Ever heard of &amp;quot;New Tank Syndrome&amp;quot;?

So, your fish are falling sick and your shrimps are dying. And you're doing all those water changes to bring down nitrite and nitrate when actually the water should be left pretty much untouched to establish cycle. Like that ah, dunno how much longer it will take for nitrogen cycle to establish. But what else can you do? Boh-pian. Haiyah..... tsk tsk tsk.

Nobody here lecture u yet 'cos wanna help you, but you must learn this lesson! Next time when you wanna set up new tank, make sure you do some reading up first and be patient!

----------


## Blades

Anyway , planning to add another 20W light which brings the total wattage to 76w for a 33 gallon tank. hope thats sufficient cos no more space for me to add more lights already

----------


## Blades

yes maam! heheeh , chialat , kena lecture already.

Will rememeber all the kind advice when doing my next tank..

Planning to move house in 6 months and will definately do a bigger tank then. hopefully can get a 6 or 8 foot tank.

at least its better for me to do all the mistakes in the smaller 2.5ft tan first become i do the bigger tank rite?

----------


## vinz

Blades, NH3 = ammonia.

Mrs Budak, quit crying, stop hanging around here, finish your work and run home to spoon-feed Mr. Budak. (Or is it the otehr way round?)  :Evil:  [ :Grin: ]

----------


## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/12/2002 11:32:27 PM 
> 
> Blades,
> 
> Settle your lights sooner. Without enough lights, your plants will not photosynthesise effectively, thus will not absorb as much nutrients including NH3. Which leaves a lot more NH3 to be converted to NO2.
> ----------------


Throw in duckweed lor, it will eventually take over the tank unless owner keeps the amt low, but is super-efficient in absorbing nitrate. The messy part of cleaning up duckweed is boh-pian.

----------


## sLapshock

Thats why the forum is here, its for newbies to ask something and for old birn to share, there's no such this as &amp;quot;SPOON-FEED&amp;quot; here..

----------


## PeterGwee

LOL...kinda wondering the &amp;quot;Mrs Budak&amp;quot; in the forum is actually another user ID for budak himself to express his hidden side....[ :Grin: ]

----------


## Allen_1971

Shes probably had a bad day of work.... hopefully budak is good hubby and know how to give good massage... or else mebbe say the wrong thing and have to sleep on the couch again.

----------


## budak

Slapshock,

Newbies, oldbies and hehbies are all welcome to share their experiences and bring up queries that could help everyone. That's why there's a treasure trove of information in the past threads which contain probably all the info a newbie needs to make an informed decision about what to do and buy. The thing is, I believe, some regular members are getting a bit sian of repeating the same answers ad infinitum almost everyday. It's like when you are half way on a long journey, then someone calls and ask you to come back and lead them by the hand to a certain point, despite there being a map already. So the feeling of going back to square one, and unable to go beyond the fundamentals can wear some out. That's why a newbie who comes forth with questions based on what's he has researched and read can help bring fresh perspectives that advance everyone's understanding. 

On spoonfeeding, I think it's more the situation where the basic facts and choices have been explained (e.g. types of base fert, filters, plants), but a person still demands an exact answer of what he should choose and do. At some point, you have to make up your mind, take the risk of making a few mistakes, learning from experience and being able to play by ear. Forummers will tell a newbie the most important thinds to do and avoid (e.g. cycle the tank, don't overcrowd) but there is no one fixed formula for setting up a tank, otherwise you could just do exactly what e.g. Juggler or Simon does and get the same result. 

Peter Gwee, Mrs budak is my [ahem] feminine and more charming side.

----------


## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/13/2002 2:27:22 AM 
> 
> Thats why the forum is here, its for newbies to ask something and for old birn to share, there's no such this as &amp;amp;amp;quot;SPOON-FEED&amp;amp;amp;quot; here..
> ----------------


Dear boy-boy, when you ask a question like &amp;quot;I have $200, tell me what to buy,&amp;quot; what else can you call it except spoon-feeding? If I wanna spend $200, I would at least evaluate the various options available, weight the pros and cons, ask for opinions if necessary (or search the archives)-THIS is what the forum is for-then make up my bleddy mind. I don't throw the problem to someone else and ask him to tell me what to buy.

When mrs budak wants to buy clothes she doesn't throw her hands up in the air and ask budak &amp;quot;I have $200, tell me what to buy.&amp;quot; mrs budak knows what she likes and what she needs, she would spend time going around HDB shops and Takashimaya, try out clothes and ask budak &amp;quot;nice or not,&amp;quot; before deciding what to buy. mrs budak will never, never ask budak what clothes to buy for $200, because 1) it's mrs budak's money and mrs budak's responsibility, 2) mrs budak has to wear the clothes, 3) budak has bad fashion sense, and 4) budak will probably spend the money on more plants.[ :Grin: ] 

Nobody says newbies cannot ask stupid questions, but newbies will always remain newbies if they don't learn to do some work themselves. Do you want to be called a newbie and be seen asking the same questions after 10 years in the hobby? If not, learn to do some research and make up your own mind instead of asking others to solve your problem. This forum has plenty of archives, the net has lots of information, and there're lots of good aquatic books for beginners out there. Do your own homework.

----------


## budak

> mrs budak will never, never ask budak what clothes to buy for $200, because 1) it's mrs budak's money and mrs budak's responsibility, 2) mrs budak has to wear the clothes, 3) budak has bad fashion sense, and 4) budak will probably spend the money on more plants.


Reason 5) budak will tell mrs budak go order Victoria Secert instead.

----------


## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/13/2002 9:14:22 AM 
> 
> Shes probably had a bad day of work.... hopefully budak is good hubby and know how to give good massage... or else mebbe say the wrong thing and have to sleep on the couch again.
> ----------------


mrs budak always talk straight and to the point. mrs budak sometimes (actually everyday) even quarrel with the boss in front of whole office. But mrs budak and the boss understand this is for work and not personal, so after quarrel already still smile-smile.  :Smile:  In fact boss is now buying wan-tan mee for mrs budak 'cos she's stuck in office and cannot go for lunch.....[ :Knockout: ] 

So in forum also same thing. Understand or not?  :Angel:

----------


## bclee

Mrs Budak, your boss really not bad... buy lunch for you so that you can logged into AQ at lunch time.[ :Grin: ] 

BC

----------


## Allen_1971

With regards to the whole spoon feeding thing, I agree that it can be pretty frustrating at times... We don't wanna discourage newbies from asking questions, cuz they may have some great questions... but we also dun want them all to go around asking the same question which has been asked 1000 times. So how? where to strike a balance? hmmm...

----------


## PeterGwee

Well...its no choice...or else what is the forum for? Imagine you once started out and all the ppl here helped you answer all your doubts..now..you just ask another newbie to look for the answer himself or herself....The person might just feel that old timers are a bit arrogant or does not wish to help much...you get what I mean lah...Life is just like that.....AHEM...Sorry Mrs Charming budak for the comments made earlier. [ :Grin: ]

----------


## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/13/2002 1:56:28 PM 
> 
> Well...its no choice...or else what is the forum for? Imagine you once started out and all the ppl here helped you answer all your doubts..now..you just ask another newbie to look for the answer himself or herself....The person might just feel that old timers are a bit arrogant or does not wish to help much...you get what I mean lah...Life is just like that.....AHEM...Sorry Mrs Charming budak for the comments made earlier. [] 
> ----------------


Forum consists not only the forum boards but also the ARCHIVES. That's what several people have been saying - a lot of information already contained in the archives. Maybe the lao-chiaos dowan to answer the same question because already answer 1000 times already, and all the answers are in the archives. If somebody in office keep ask me what password to photocopier is despite 1000 reminders, I would tattoo the password on his arm, even if he was my boss! (Boss walking by.......)

But my main gripe is not with newbies asking questions, because all of us have been newbies and we all try to help. It's with those kind of really brainless questions such as &amp;quot;I have $200, tell me what to buy.&amp;quot;

----------


## sLapshock

Okla. Budak if you hate repeating answer over and over again then i think you should ignore me dont need to waste your energy to give me &amp;quot;ceramah&amp;quot; because i also dont want to waste my electric bills on reading your &amp;quot;ceramah&amp;quot; anyway thank you for your &amp;quot;ceramah&amp;quot; i think you should stop it as to save unecessary answers which is NOT-RELATED to the topic.

In my opinions Newbies is like a kid, whenever he/she got something to buy, he/she will ask father/mother on what to buy as later it will not make a wrong step.

(My english is not perfect as yours ;budak,mrsbudak [same ip no  :Wink: ] if you dont get me then ignore me and dont need to &amp;quot;ceramah&amp;quot; me anymore.) once again, if you think you hate repeating things over and over again then ignore me lets somebody else answer me. 

Case closed. Should dont go to far or else kanna flame! Sorry budak,mrsbudak if this offended you. no hard feelings.

p/s: If dont mind can moderator make a STICK topic on what to buy ( substrate, how thick and related stuff) for a begginers who going for first time plnated in HELP/FAQ so next time budak,mrs budak wil not &amp;quot;ceramah&amp;quot; all over and over again because he hate repeating all over and over again because i believe in future there will still a posting like what i posted. Scared budak,mrs budak will commit suicide!

----------


## mrs budak

Boy-boy, you wanna target make sure u target right person. budak and mrs budak are two different persons. Don't believe see photos of previous outings. budak and mrs budak married of course share same computer and got same ip address, who you trying to fool. Kekeke...

----------


## PeterGwee

Relax...don't wanna spoil the image of AQ you know...no questions means boring forum liao...[ :Grin: ]

----------


## mrs budak

Same question over and over again also makes a forum boring.

But brainless questions make for fun flaming sessions! [ :Grin: ]

----------


## chia2k

arr my hair is on fire my hair is on fire !!!

heehee , im a noobie , just started my first tank last sunday . but hey , i have to say all u old timers / pro are great help . If not for everyone's reccomendation of LFS or teaching a noob like me abt co2 , i would have buy all my stuff at the nearby hdb shop and realised i got stuff for a lou han tank instead of a planted tank. i just wanna say thank you guys for helping me decide on wat to buy[ :Grin: ] cheers

----------


## vinz

SlapShock,

There is a forum in AQ called Aquatic FAQ which contains many articles about and links to basic and intermediate planted tank topics. All from forumers efforts and time to write, take photos and research. Among them is &amp;quot;Things needed to start a planted tank&amp;quot;. It talks about the basic equipment needed for a planted tank. It even talks about your options and pros and cons. Have you read that? If you have, you should know what to buy.

The old-birds here love to help newbies. We like to see more ppl getting into the hobby. But we get very sian when we come across one-liner questions like &amp;quot;Tell me how to start a planted tank.&amp;quot; It shows that this person has not bothered to do any research. That's very different from &amp;quot;I've read a lot about MH and PL, but in your experience, which is more cost effective?quot;

----------


## Allen_1971

at the risk of sounding stupid... whats &amp;quot;ceramah&amp;quot;?

slapshock,

many of us like helping newbies out... its one of the reasons we hang about the forum. However, all Budak &amp;amp; Mrs budak (yes it is 2 ppl) is saying is that WE (and I include myself) would rather newbies read up a bit and understand the hobby rather than just post a topic like &amp;quot;I'm new pls tell me what to do&amp;quot;... Questions on setting up a new tank have been asked countless times in the forum, and while not every question on setting up tanks has been answered, I would guess that 95% have been and can be found in our archives.

Finally, (to everyone) lets continue to keep the community spirit here yah? So minimize the flaming  :Smile: , watch the sarcasm  :Smile: , and keep everything friendly. :Smile:   :Smile: [ :Grin: ]

----------


## Blades

Wah , didnt know the topic i post will lead to a flaming session. hehe , anyway ... sorry to all for asking so many questions. will try to minimise the postings here.

Anyway , will buy another light strip which will bring my wattage to 4 x 18 = 72watts. for a 33 gallon tank , i think its not bad already.

Also , buying those PC fans so that the whole thing can be kept cool at about 27 I hope.

Cheers and sorry once again.

----------


## lorba

why not we have some of us pick one topic, go through the threads and put all related information into an article and repost it to the FAQ section? I believe we can do on the article stuff in days to come. 

FAQ section seems under utilized and might need some publicity, huh?  :Smile:

----------


## budak

Apologies for having brought your thread to a detour Blades. Actually I think your thread is a fair one for a newbie. You may have stocked the fish/shrimp a little too early, but you have done your initial research and your questions point to the right direction. So I hope you don't feel slighted in any way. 

Slapshock, I hope you will forgive my mrs (whom I make no excuses for) but I think she is expressing a sentiment (in her personal way) a fair number of forummers share. But I would like to ask, would you rather a newbie post be ignored totally due to the regulars being &amp;quot;penat&amp;quot; at the same old question or that someone comes and says, &amp;quot;Why don't you look through this archive which has most of the answers, and if there are additional things to clarify, let's discuss it then.&amp;quot; This approach seems a fair compromise to me, especially since the topic of setting up planted tanks can easily take up an entire book. 

Sometimes an old timer has the time and inclination to jote down from scratch each step to take, which is nice. But folks here are also using up their electricity and time to correspond to all new and old. So some preparedness, especially when the resources are available, are greatly appreciated. It's like if, e.g. I join a motorbiking club which organises tours and discussions on bike maintenance, and demands that the first old member I catch hold on tells me what bike to buy, how to ride it, what are its parts etc.... now I would expect to get a &amp;quot;ceramah&amp;quot; from the old-timer then. 

A note again to the beleaguered mods, I hope this episode would not turn any (save any individuals afraid of the valuable lessons that debates can yield) from AQ. In a community such as this, even with a common interest, individual personalities, approaches and responses are bound to differ. I think in earlier threads I had mentioned the need for an additional forum section for beginners (both plants and fish), as it is becoming apparent that there are plenty of both newbies and fairly advanced hobbyists on both sides. With this, no-one can complain of &amp;quot;tiresome&amp;quot; newbie questions, while everyone, new and the forgetful old, can ask whatever they want in there. 

Your dissatisfation with my mrs aside, I do think my replies meant to &amp;quot;show the way&amp;quot; rather than to &amp;quot;scold&amp;quot;. I think your earlier post on the filter selection was well-replied and you are most welcome to seek help in the other areas. Of course, telling forumers more detail about how you want your setup to be would help people answer you more helpfully. 

Sorry for &amp;quot;cakap banyak&amp;quot; but this is my style... and my earlier posts were meant to address forummers in general, not only yourself, so you need not feel offended.

----------


## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/13/2002 8:42:42 PM 
> 
> Slapshock, I hope you will forgive my mrs (whom I make no excuses for)....
> ----------------


*mrs budak throws a bottle of Tropica Mastergrow at budak and sentences him to 5 nites on the sofa and cleaning the house this weekend*

*mrs budak trots off to Holland V for dinner leaving budak to do the laundry*

[ :Grin: ]

----------


## vinz

Lorba,

Was thinking of that. An intermediate step maybe just to link the more informative or details articles in a post.

----------


## Blades

Ok guys , have put in the new light so total now is 4 x 18W = 72W and also placed the juwel CO2 reactor hoping that my CO2 dissolved will increase and thus bubbles!! hehe

It has been 1/2 hour and still nuthing.. sob sob..

On an unrelated note , i think i lost my tiny puffer.. cant find him anywhere! tried looking high n low but MIA man...

----------


## mrs budak

Ah boy-boy ah, not say I say what ah, young people nowsadays are so impatient. You put in your lights and CO2 for half an hour only, expect a million bubbles ah?

You forgot that the CO2 has to dissolve in the water, the chlorophyll got to slowly &amp;quot;warm up&amp;quot; and slowly photosynthesise ah?

It's like expecting a plant to grow flowers half an hour after you apply fertiliser.

Unless u are kidding about the sobbing. mrs budak really hopes so.

Btw mrs budak hopes you are not thinking of increasing the bubble count just so that you can see bubbles! Get your priority right-you want to stablise your tank first or wanna see bubbles? Maybe you will see your tank occupants mati first!

(That happened to mrs budak once... blur blur adjust the CO2 gauge and ended up killing the whole tank [ :Knockout: ] )

----------


## sherchoo

Allen,
ceramah = lecture
cakap banyak = talk alot
penat = tired

did I miss out anything?

----------


## sLapshock

No problem Budak its ok.

Vinz, i do read that articale twice but what i mean is the brand thats why i asked, and the PL lights is 2x36w PL is not anough for a light demanding plants like riccia or glasso thats what i mean not i ask &amp;quot;im a newbe, how do i start with&amp;quot; i do read a lot or articles about plants.

Again i ask this simple question (i dont know how to count for a gollon/w) so i ask if 2x36w is enough for 2/2.5ft tanK?

----------


## Blades

Oh noooooooo!!!! , woke up and found scores of shrimp dead! and found the fishes all at the surface gasping for air! I am checking now to see the nitirite levels.

or maybe its the CO2 levels

----------


## Blades

Ok done testing.

Kh = 7
Ph = 7.1
Ammonia = very light green
Nitrite = light red

Test conducted with Sera test kit

Overall , its an improvement over 2 days ago. So the mystery is why the dead shrimps?

----------


## Allen_1971

probably the nitrite... anyway, do take the time to scour your tank for dead shrimp... rotting shrimp worsen your water considerably... and it smells horrid too

----------


## Blades

Cleared out all the shrimp from the tank.

At the risk of getting flamed , how do i get rid of the nitrate?

----------


## BFG

er, water change?

----------


## sherchoo

> ----------------
> On 12/14/2002 8:03:49 PM 
> 
> At the risk of getting flamed , how do i get rid of the nitrate?
> ----------------


You mean Nitrite (NO2) right? Juz let your filter establish itself. In the mean time, do water change using aged water.

----------


## chia2k

speaking of nitrate lvl , i have never checked for it. should i check its level? all i know is my tank is abit acidic , ph around 5.8 - 6.8 nvr 7. i never check for anything else. does the nitrate affect the plants ? further more i just added in a few shrimp , abt 5 . 1 thing that bother me was that the shrimps kept darting around , some hang out at the plants but a few kept darting left , right and sometimes swim to the top . all the time they kept hugging the fish tank wall . is that weird or are they feeding on the algae ( i dun see any) on the tank wall ?

----------


## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/14/2002 8:03:49 PM 
> 
> Cleared out all the shrimp from the tank.
> 
> At the risk of getting flamed , how do i get rid of the nitrate?
> ----------------


Boy-boy, mrs budak won't flame you this time but will remind you that this question has been answered in this thread before. Open your eyes big-big and don't make everyone repeat their answers.

The root of your present problem is you NEVER CYCLE YOUR TANK.

Cycling your tank means to allow your tank to go through the nitrogen cycle so that a colony of nitrifying bacteria can be established to convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate etc. This will take at least 1 week to up to a month.

To do that you set up your tank (gravel, plants and water), then add ONE or TWO hardy fish to seed the tank. Some have suggested using otos, budak has used pygmy gouramis. The key is ONE or TWO and no more, and NO SHRIMPS, NO INVERTEBRATES because they're super-sensitive to ammonia compounds and are sure to die.

Then allow nature to take its course.

Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels will increase rapidly at different times, but the presence of the nitrifying bacteria will slowly build up (repeat: SLOWLY). After your test kit shows a clean &amp;quot;bill of health&amp;quot; (zero ammonia, zero nitrite) then your tank is cycled and you can quite safely add other fish. 1 week to 1 month.

The problem is you skipped all these and dump 6 tetras (rather sensitive fish) and 10 shrimps into your tank straight away. mrs budak said your fish will mati right? mrs budak is not prophet but it's well-known fish tend to die when dumped into a new tank that is not cycled. This is called NEW TANK SYNDROME.

So how to get rid of the nitrite?

Common sense - what else can you do but to change water (a drastic but necessary measure) and hope that your nitrifying bacteria will build up before your tetras go next. When people cycle tank, water should not be changed, but because you don't want your tetras to die, the only way to keep them alive is to change water to reduce the nitrite level.

IF your tetras really si-kiao-kiao, then let the tank cycle without any new fish added (since there would be a colony of bacteria already). Test for ammonia and nitrite after a week or so and only add fish when they are zero.

Read the above properly and don't ask the same kind of questions again. Otherwise mrs budak will sure to flame you.

----------


## vinz

> ----------------
> On 12/14/2002 3:32:06 AM 
> 
> No problem Budak its ok.
> 
> Vinz, i do read that articale twice but what i mean is the brand thats why i asked, and the PL lights is 2x36w PL is not anough for a light demanding plants like riccia or glasso thats what i mean not i ask &amp;amp;amp;quot;im a newbe, how do i start with&amp;amp;amp;quot; i do read a lot or articles about plants.
> 
> Again i ask this simple question (i dont know how to count for a gollon/w) so i ask if 2x36w is enough for 2/2.5ft tanK?
> ----------------


You didn't mention that you wanted to know what brands are good. That's why it sounded like &amp;quot;I'm too lazy to figure/find out what I need... you guys tell me.&amp;quot;

Is it 2 ft or 2.5ft?

Here's how you calculate gallons.
1. Take your tank height, length and width in cm and multiply together. Remember to exclude the substrate from the height.
2. Divide by 1000 to get litres.
3. Divide by 3.8 to get the apporximate US Gallons.


Amount of watts needed = multiply tank volume in gallons by 3 to get the number of watts you should have if you want 3W/G.

If you want to know your current W/G, take your total watts and divide by tank volume in gallons.

----------


## sLapshock

I Tahnx Vinz. Ive read many people reccomend using JBL base fertilizer. Anyway want to ask

2FT GLASS TANK ( THE &amp;quot;hight quality glass tank&amp;quot; BRAND) can see at the sticker paste on the tank. is for $35 ( bargain can get $33) is it cheap.. how much does other LFS sell??

----------


## loupgarou

the 2ft gex five plan/nisso &amp;quot;glass&amp;quot; tank is around $18 at eg: c328, petmart etc

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## lsz

there are no stupid questions 
only stupid answers ! 
(quote Mez the Great) 


It is inevitable for questions like that to emerge. If i am new to this hobby and i come across a great forum, of coz i am inclined to ask many questions. And how the hell will i know if my question will irritate some old timers when these &amp;quot;stupid questions&amp;quot; are already quite difficult for me? 

Very often it is not such questions that mess forums up.

Unnecessary remarks do. 

[: :Smile: ]

----------


## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/22/2002 8:46:15 PM 
> 
> there are no stupid questions 
> only stupid answers ! 
> ----------------


Surely, this is one of those myths (guided by misplaced charity) which ought to be rebutted.

I've come across too many stupid questions at work to believe otherwise.

----------


## lsz

sure we know this is a public forum, as opposed to wherever else. There is no obligation to reply esp when the stupid questions are not of bad nature towards anyone. Neither do we have the right to ban them.

if there is real personal statement to be directed at anyone, pm is a good choice.


[: :Smile: ]

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## mrs budak

Certainly, it is the moderator's call to decide quality of this forum.

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## Simon

arrrggghhhh.. changes takes time, we all want a forum of higher quality, places like APD didnt change overnight. Newbies get slime for asking a simple question, without giving relevant details. perharps a different culture? but I hope AQ wouldnt eventually turn to that nature. we have to teach newbies to search for their own questions in the existing archive, that I agree. many times, we see the same old questions asked...


eve, lsz... cool down please

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## PeterGwee

Well...actually moderators works like the boss of a shop....You should know that the customer is always right lor...That is quality service...But if the forum has to come to a state where the moderator gets frustrated and refuse to answer a newbie no matter how stupid the question is..then I'm afraid the death of the forum could be near...I surely hope not. [ :Embarassed: ] ....The forum can improve but there will always be newbies around...so you can always expect them to ask such questions lor...maybe the design of the forum has to change...login and will pop you straight to the such function...or newbies click the FAQ section for a start (so the FAQ section must have wider newbie form of Q&amp;amp;A lor)

----------


## vinz

Well, how does a newbie know what is or is not a so-called &amp;quot;stupid question&amp;quot;, since they have no idea where to start. This forum is big enough now to be hard to search and the newbies don't even know what to search for.

It's also important how we respond to these questions. One way is to tell them off, but that frightens them away and then we have would failed in our goal of promoting and nurturing the hobby.

Another way is to point them to the correct resources, showing them where to gather the info and invite them to post here again when they have questions after doing the research. This, me thinks, is a better compromise... we don't end up typing till our hands fall off and the newbie doesn't feel ignored or worse, flamed, bbq'd and tossed in the bin of silly newbies.

Yeah, of course, we still get the few silly questions on and off. But hey, this is a public forum and it's common pitfall. We just have to tolerate those and if possible, educate the authors.

In the long run, as the forum gets bigger, the mods and admins will have to find ways to make it easier for newbies to get started, and yet, nice, comfy and relevant to the rest. Other forumers too, can contribute with constructive suggestions. Since, we've just passed our first birthday, we should re-examine the forum and see what more we can improve. Given that the forum is fairly matured, perhaps the first step is to look at getting newbies off their feet without having to ask innocent, supposedly &amp;quot;stupid&amp;quot; questions.

----------


## chia2k

newbie suggestion ^^this is just a suggestion . dun flame me please. before further reading , please note this is just a SUGGESTION[ :Grin: ] 

how abt setting up a new forum section but call it newbie corner
(its like the auqtic FAQ)
1. give them the basic . - how to set up tank (base fert, int filter)
- mature tank b4 adding fish
- what lvl is just right(co2 lvl, ph lvl, No lvl )
- wat is the amount of light needed ( eg 3w per gal )

2. a bit of trouble shooting - find out the most common problems noobs face 
and provide answers to these

3. links - links to informative sites like the krib .

----------


## sLapshock

i agree to VINZ ...

----------


## mrs budak

> ----------------
> On 12/23/2002 9:56:43 AM 
> 
> Well, how does a newbie know what is or is not a so-called &amp;quot;stupid question&amp;quot;, since they have no idea where to start. This forum is big enough now to be hard to search and the newbies don't even know what to search for.
> 
> ----------------


This is a self-perpetuating problem. As long as newbie concerns do not get addressed adequately, you are going to see the main forum being flooded by newbie questions which make it even harder for them to search. So what do newbies do? Any new question which pops into mind, post it on the forum instead of doing own homework. How many times have you opened a thread and groaned &amp;quot;this question again?quot;

To be quite frank, some moderators also encourage such behaviour. Instead of telling the thread-starter to refer to resources available or at least do some homework, moderators are so &amp;quot;kind&amp;quot; as to go through the same Q&amp;amp;A-what size is your tank, how many fish, what plants, what gravel, what fertilizer... How many times have you all done that already and yet newbies continue to post questions without thinking.

I participate in different forums too and a key difference between those which truly stimulate one's mind and the social forums are the kind of questions and matters which are raised. I have seen some pretty educational threads on this forum, one of the latest ones being the algae thread. Another distinctive factor is the discipline of the participants. You cannot have people hijacking the threads for their own purpose.

Speaking of which, I'm very guilty of it now. Perhaps someone should start a thread on this. This forum is getting very frustrating even for someone who can't claim to be an aquaria expert. I do not think I am the only one to say that most of the time you just read the titles of the threads and don't even bother to open them.

I continue to stand by my assertion that stupid questions exist. And these questions do not relate to whether one is a newbie or not. I'm referring to *questions posted without heed to how it may help people answer them* (e.g. my plants have brown spots what do I do... without mentioning the plant type, water parameters, fertiliser, how long it has been planted, etc), or *questions asked simply because the poster is too lazy to search for an answer elsewhere*. I certainly hope it is not this forum's objective to encourage laziness.

An FAQ will certainly help but why re-invent the wheel when websites like thekrib.com already has a pretty comprehensive one? I noticed that this link was posted on the FAQ section. How many people are actually encouraged to go through these links? Instead people go straight to the individual forums and start posting their stupid questions irritating the hell out of the regulars.

There should be a sticky thread which addresses &amp;quot;how to ask questions on this forum.&amp;quot; I am not kidding. Many times the answers provided are as good as the questions asked. I've been sorely tempted a few times to post the &amp;quot;correct&amp;quot; answers just to get the person asking to wake up his ideas. For god's sake, how many answers can there be to a question such as &amp;quot;do lowlight plants exist?quot;

These are my unhumble comments. I do not claim to be very patient or very knowledgeable in aquaria, but after spending some time here, one thing I can say for sure is I certainly can ask better questions, or knock on people's head to wake up their ideas (as I do at work; fortunately my colleagues &amp;quot;evolved&amp;quot; quite quickly so this is not so necessary these days).

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## vinz

Mrs Budak,

Well, I agree with a lot of what you've said. But knocking ppl on their heads are not constructive here. Your collegues cannot run away from you, they need the job... at least they can't just up and find a new job easily.

Here, newbies will go elsewhere if they're snubbed. We don't want them to go elsewhere, we want them to stay and learn. Agree we shouldn't spoon feed them, but the other extreme of knocking their heads don't help either. I rather tell them where and how to get the info they need.

I don't question your intent, but your methods are scaring the newbies. Non-newbies who ask lazy questions will get the idea, but not the newbies who are not familiar with the forum culture yet.

As for your suggestions of a sticky thread, it has already been initiated.

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## FC

Dear all,

Very good and constructive discussions about raising the standard of AQ.
Allow me to voice my humble opinions.

I came into AQ about 2 months ago with much zeal because I thought I finally found a place that I can call &amp;quot;Home&amp;quot;. Prior to AQ, for the past nearly 3 years, I had been frequent on many well known sites, emailing to their commenter, asking friends, reading countless books on planted tanks, visiting nearly all LFS to get advices, etc. I even begin to consider twice for any lucrative overseas postings, just to stay by my tank. For 3 years, I think I had gone quite a distance in pursuing this hobby. Having said that, I am still a beginner like what the www.killies.com said in its’ homepage.

Ever since I was in AQ, I had not been going other site because I feel at home being with the locals. I like here so much that I even pay premiums to login while on vacations. However, there was a turn recently, much sooner than I expect ... AQ has lost its' magic on me. It is something that I do not like to see it happen but it did. The reason why I voice out now because AQ still matters to me (to many alike, I hope) and I think it is high time for AQ to reconsider the web set-up.

The postings are becoming stale by repeated questions, not withstanding &amp;quot;innocent&amp;quot; ones. I begin to select topics and sometime not login at all for few days. The forum needs to be treated with respect and people should be demanded to do homework before asking. Please do not allow for anyone to throw whatever they feel they need to. By continuing this so called “culture”, the rest of us here will look like fools to hang in a place that looks forever standstill in beginer stage. Do not forget, we are all in the internet, the whole world is looking at us, we as hobbyists have dignity/integrity to upkeep, not just the owner(s) of AQ.

My suggestions:
1)	Put it as your First Priority to set up a dedicated forum for beginners with FAQ throw in. Down here, set a basic understanding that any new postings require prior reading of the FAQ. For certain, FAQ needs to be updated as frequent as needed to quench our new guys thirst for knowledge. So, even this corner can look respectful.
2)	The current forum remains to serve the intermediates and advance hobbyists. This is the place to make discussions, bring in new ideas, etc. This is the place where AQ can stick its’ head up and put it’s flag in the international world with activities like planted tank competition, own researches, new findings, etc.

Let us continue to improve on AQ and make it a place where we can stand up and call it HOME.

Nothing personal, please correct me if I am in any way wrong.



Have fun. :Smile:

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## budak

chia2k and FC's suggestion for separate newbie &amp;amp; more advance discussion forums seconded. That should give no further reason for put-downs, unless people can't even be bothered to read which forum should they post in. 

of course, regulars will have to take it upon themselves to &amp;quot;service&amp;quot; the beginner's forum, or it becomes a trashbin. Here, clear stickies referring newbies to the FAQ, fish/plant databases, keynote threads should help somewhat in reducing ad nauseum type questions. Really, some folks don't even seem to read the very thread they are posting in, which already contains the answer they are looking for!

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## timebomb

Nothing personal, please correct me if I am in any way wrong.
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Nothing wrong with your opinions, FC. They were things I felt all along too. 

Vinz, what this forum needs is more netiquette and discipline. If you want to measure success by numbers alone, I would say this is one of the most successful forums I've seen. More than a thousand members and hundreds of posts a day, what more can one say? But success is not measured by numbers. There's also this thing called quality. 

I would suggest that the moderators here teach the beginners to teach themselves. And you don't have to be so polite and nice all the time. If people get offended just because you ask him to go and read the archives, ignore him. You can never please everyone and trying to do that will please no one. 

We need head-knockers too and I really like the way Mrs Budak knocks heads. Don't get me wrong. I had my fair share of getting my head knocked too when I was a newbie on the internet. But I have learnt to take it in the right spirit. When someone knocks my head, it's usually because he or she is trying to teach me something. I appreciate that. The guy whose head was knocked by Mrs Budak should have thanked her. Unfortunately, he appeared to be offended which is rather sad, if you ask me.

Have rules. And enforce them. Don't tolerate people who keep asking beginners' questions when the answers are easily available in the archives. Tell those who quote unnecessary text that they are wasting bandwidth and everybody's time. Don't let people treat this forum like their own personal conversational backyard. Posts that are of interest to only one other person should not be sent to the forum, for instance, the ubiquitious &amp;quot;you have pm&amp;quot;. Don't allow posts to be hijacked and tell people off when they interrupt others who are trying to have a serious discussion.

Vinz, you were concerned that the newbies will leave if they are snubbed. But take note too that the old-timers will unsubscribe themselves and quietly fade away if nothing is done to improve the quality of the posts on this forum. Just like FC, I like this place because here is where my fellow-Singaporeans are. I know the moderators here are trying their best and I appreciate that a lot. I know too it takes time to improve but you have to start taking the first steps now. 

Try to learn from others. The APD would not have such a long history and be so successful if they were not doing many things right. 

Loh K L

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## Allen_1971

Guys and Gals... for the sake of disciplin, I've started a new thread in the chit chat section where we can discuss your various opinions and together see how we can make AQ a better place.

Without doubt, your comments and feedback are important, and we would like to know your ideas on how we can improve AQ

Click here to go to the new thread.

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