# General > AquaTalk >  Organic aquarium - Human Urine as plant fertilisers!?

## zyblack

Haha, I think this post might set some people off and might churn the stomach of others. Anyone tried using human urine as fertilizer? Be it for aquatic or non-aquatic plants?

I have been doing some digging on the net and found out that urine was considered an alternative to commercial fertilizers and were being used in agricultural farming in some countries. Urine contains nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium which are important for plant growth. I see that a lot of people are dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4 as part of their fertilizer regime, so why not turn to our own urine for those substance?

I think in the olden days farmers were using manure and urine as fertilizers so it should be feasible even now. Below are some links to websites with information regarding the use of urine as fertilizers for plants. Do post some comments for discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_urine

http://www.geocities.com/impatients6...Fertilizer.htm

http://www.holon.se/folke/kurs/Dista.../urin_en.shtml

http://www.wecf.de/cms/articles/2005/09/maize_urine.php

http://ezinearticles.com/?Using-Huma...izer&id=392596

Even found a website promoting a book on the subject. Liquid Gold  :Grin:  

http://www.liquidgoldbook.com/

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## stephen chung

Well, I am not surprise. My grandma used to do that.

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## tcampbell

maybe why we don't use it in a fish tank is the smell and the color.
"Is that yellow water from the drift wood?"
"None, I just forgot to dilute my urine this time and it will pass? So will the smell, I hope"

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## zyblack

Haha, it could be the tea that I accidentally spilled into my tank...

Colourwise and smellwise, it might not be exactly pleasant. But I noticed the liquid fertilizers I used like SeaChem Flourish and Ferka Aqualitizer both have a strong smell and dark colour as well though you could hard see them once they are dissolved into the water.

I think unless you empty the whole content of your bladder direct into the tank, the colour and smell would not be too overpowering. Perhaps a few drops per 20 liter? Who knows...we might come up with a "Urine fertilizer regime calculator" soon.  :Razz:  

I also wonder if a proper diet should be imposed if we decide to go the "natural way" (pun intended) since our diet might add extra stuff to our urine.

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## tcampbell

Exactly what I was thinking. You would have to control what you eat. Sorry honey I can't eat that lovely dinner of beets and cabbage you made. I have to urinate in the fish tank tomorrow. I wouldn't want to hurt the fish.

Guess it would give a new meaning to "piss poor tank"

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## bryan

I once met a hobbyist that swore by dried chicken poop for base fertilizer. I've seen his tanks, they look fantastic. I don't have the guts to try though.

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## Aeon

Urine has a pH 4.5 - 6 and the decay of urea releases ammonia. It also contains heavy metals.

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## zyblack

Urine may go as low as pH 4.5 or as high as pH 8 according to this article: http://www.rnceus.com/ua/uaph.html
Of course by dosing a few drops or so would probably not affect the pH of a tank too much. I was thinking if we can dose it the way we dose liquid ferts, a teaspoon or a few drops a day, not an entire bladder.

I wonder what sort of heavy metals are released in urine? Anyone has any idea? If I remember correctly certain vitamin pills are not soluble in water and can get expelled via urine. I look up the ingredients of a multi-vitamin pill and saw zinc, copper, magnesium, calcium, iron,phosphorus, potassium, manganese..etc..if we consume such pills and have these metals expelled via urine..will the plants benefit or suffer if we dose "natural ferts" in our tanks?

It is a topic of interest for me and I do hope to hear opinions from the people in the forum.

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## zyblack

Oh yah, one more thing, I read that if you are a STRICT vegetarian, your pee will have a pH of 8 or slightly more alkaline. Carnivores? pH 6 or even lower, not below pH 4.5 though.

If your pH of your pee is too acidic, it could mean that you might have some health problems that be of concern. One way to find out is to dose your planted tank in copious amounts and watch if your plants start to "burn" :Grin:  Free health pre-screening test anyone? :Laughing:

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## Aeon

Ya I think the acid comes from dissolved urea which is higher when the diet contains more proteins.

Metals in urine (in μg/kg wet weight), wikipedia

* Copper: 67
* Zinc: 30
* Chromium: 5
* Lead: 1
* Cadmium: 0

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## David Moses Heng

> Well, I am not surprise. My grandma used to do that.


 
mine too. i remember those days when my grandparents use to have plantations at Lorong Ah Soo(many decades ago, when i was below 10. I'm now 31) and they would tell all the grandkids to wee into the foam boxes that my father supply them with(my father is a seafood dealer and still is) so that they can water the veges. :Smile:

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## CK Yeo

hmm... If used for the fish tank, won't the ammonia kill something first? Doesn't the heavy metal content depends on what you eat? And I don't think you are going to use it so concentrated that it will affect the pH of the water. I will worry about the ammonia first.

If for terrestrial plants (or emersed plants), it may work for certain plants after dilution but I don't think it is complete or balanced enough. May need to supplement something.

Dung is a different issue altogether. Bacteria like samonella and E. coli present in dung will be quite a health issue. Having said that, I know that fish farms still fertilize their grow-out ponds with chicken dung to boost inforsoria growth. Daphnia/Moina culture are also located near pig farms so that the waste produced can fertilize the culture ponds.

ck

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## zyblack

There were a few websites describing how some of the farmers in certain poor countries were unable to afford commercial fertilizers to grow their crops which cause their crops to be shrunken and not competitive against more industrialized countries. 

I think before the advent of commercial fertilizers, crops were mainly fertilized from compost of dead leaves and dung which has the limitation of being slow to decompose and might not be available all the time. Cow dung is also used to fertilize our soil to grow the trees and grass in Singapore isn't it? I am not trained in Biology so most of these I just gather off the net. 

Of course since this forum is mainly targeted at planted tank enthusiasts, we should look more into the context of the viability of using human waste as fertilizers for our tanks. bryan mentioned that he has seen a hobbyist use chicken dung as base fert so maybe this method has been tried out by other hobbyists as well? 

If using dung is too much for you to handle, how about liquid urine? You could dilute it before applying to your tank but I think since your tank has loads of water in it already a few drops of pure urine would get pretty diluted fast enough. Remember the idea is to use a few drops and not your entire bladder. Of course the risk is there for the nano tanks 1 foot or smaller.

I am testing this out on my two tanks (gross?! :Shocked:  I won't go into much details then  :Laughing: ) since I only dose micro and not macro and my plants are starting to yellow due to lack of the macro nutrients. I will try to keep feeding constant to see if my plants get any better. 

Just remember not to get any plants, fauna or equipment from me for the next few weeks... :Grin:

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## David Moses Heng

Do keep us posted of your outcome.

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## zyblack

Another way to look at this issue is the effect the production of commercial fertilizers have on our eco-system. The main commercial fertilizer used in farms are nitrogen and the extraction of 1 tonne of anhydrous ammonia fertilizer requires 33,500 cubic feet of natural gas which is...a lot of gas. Reference: http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/NitrogenPrices/Index.htm

Also the price of natural gas has gone up in recent years due to growing demands and slow discovery of fresh natural gas deposits. These in turn affects the price of nitrogen and crops. I noticed the vegetables being sold in the market is getting more expensive, GST or no GST. Reference:http://www.deere.com/en_US/ag/furrow...r_archive.html

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## Jungle-mania

I notice that on australian forums, people actually use bones and blood for fertiliser for their tanks because the cost of specialised substrate and fertilier are expensive (try 400 to 500% more on retail) Even their soils is actual soil, sand and other mixture of wood bark and stuff that they find around their area.

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## zyblack

Bones and blood? Animal origin or.... :Confused:  I wonder how they do it...Jungle-mania you mind listing the forum you go to so I can go take a peek to see what it is about?

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## CK Yeo

I think what they meant is blood and bone meal. See link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_meal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_meal

Maybe it is more appropriate to change the title to "organic aquarium" or something like that.

ck

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## David Moses Heng

Hmm... maybe i should start one tank based on this findings... interesting... :Roll Eyes:

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## Goondoo

I can sponsor the samples, just call to reserve before collection  :Grin:

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## Nicky

It is very common to use chicken dung and bone meal for garden fertiliser. I believe at the Teo farm, they use at least the chicken dung component to grow their emmerse plant. I too have a big bag of dried chicken dung and another big bag of bone meal sitting around. If you want to try it in your tank let me know via PM and I will sponsor you some. Strictly self-collect from my place in Clementi.

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## zyblack

Day 1 of experiment:



After the third day of my "natural fert" experiment:



Day 1 of experiment:



After the third day of my "natural fert" experiment:



Pardon for the poor photography. I think I forgot to switch on the lights for the tank on the first day but the growth and change is quite visible. The plants are greener and growing nicer each day. 

Note that this tank has massacred countless fauna like corys, cherry shrimps, ottos, rasboraras, guppies, mollies, platies..etc..etc.. and quite a few plants including riccia, duck weed, x'mas moss, taiwan moss and even java moss. I restarted the tank about a week ago and dumped some new plants in. Reason for previous plant deaths? I didn't know they need Macro nutrients...dosed Seachem flourish and Aquatilizer all the way thinking thats all they need. :Crying:  

Flora: Narrow leaf Java Fern, X'mas moss?, German Seaweed, Moss ball, Water lettuce and a plant in the right corner which I do not know the name of.

Fauna: 2 ottos. Survivors of previous massacres. Over a year in this tank.

Fert dosed: 1-2 ml of Seachem Flourish and 2-5 ml of "quality sterile pee" a day. No feeding of fauna at all.

CO2: 1-2 ml Seachem Excel per day.

Substrate: Black inert crystal gravel. No fertilizer inserted in gravel.

I think its working...will observe more.

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## zyblack

> I think what they meant is blood and bone meal. See link below.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_meal
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_meal
> 
> Maybe it is more appropriate to change the title to "organic aquarium" or something like that.
> 
> ck


"Organic aquarium" sounds good to me...haha

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## benny

> "Organic aquarium" sounds good to me...haha


Ok. I've changed it to Organic aquarium since you guys prefer it that way.

To be honest, I understand organic to be free from chemical additive. However, if your diet is not organic, the output will not be either. As such, I don't quite agree with the term "Organic Aquarium".

Cheers,

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## Quixotic

> However, if your diet is not organic, the output will not be either.


Which is what I thought as well, so there are always possibilities that the urine may contain something "undesirable". In my honest opinion, take out the faunas so that they are not subjected to the potential dangers of "undesirable" contents.

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## zyblack

Hi guys!

Found this interesting free e-book publication on Humanure which is the use of human manure to create compost for gardening and farming http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure_contents.html

In it I managed to find the composition of human urine:


Judging by the composition we can see that it has the 3 main nutrients along with calcium and carbon. I wonder if the carbon available in urine is the same as the carbon we get from CO2 dosing? Or is it talking about another stuff entirely? (sucked at chemisty :Embarassed:  )

Looking at SeaChem Potassium's guaranteed analysis of 5% soluble K20 and using APC's Fertilator calculations, dosing 10 ml of this 5% soluble K20 gives 5ppm of K per 100 litres of water.

So based on those percentages in the urine composition chart, would the below nutrient calculations be correct? 

Tank capacity: 100 litres
Dose of urine: 10 ml 

Nitrogen: 15% = 15ppm
Potassium: 3% = 3ppm
Phosphorous: 2.5% = 2.5ppm
Calcium: 4.5% = 4.5ppm
Carbon: 11% = ?ppm?

Anyone can correct me? I think I am doing really simple math and probably not in the right direction.

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## zyblack

Anyone can help me with the calculations? Hope someone in the community can spot any error or can confirm with the calculations.

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## zyblack

Update on my experiment.

Reorganise my messy tank. The narrow-leaf java fern has lost its yellow colouring and turn a beautiful green.


Side view


Tank: 8 liters.

Urine dose: 2-5ml twice a week
Seachem Flourish: 0.5ml twice a week ---> Trace mineral source
Seachem Potassium: 2-5ml twice a week ---) Potassium source
Seachem Excel: 1-2ml every other day ---> CO2 source
Feeding: Negligible, a tiny speck of flakes every 2-3 days for the platy fries

Water change: once every 2 weeks. Just changed 2 days ago.

Fauna: Platy fries and Ottos.

The Loma Fern is growing and the narrow-leaf java fern (Microsorum pteropus v. 'narrow leaf') has turned a darker shade of green as compared to start of the experiment 4 weeks ago. 

I have used estimation for the dosing, sometimes dosing a bit more to test if the the platy fries will react negatively to increased dose. I once dosed 10 ml and the fries avoided the region directly administered for a minute or so and then went about their business as usual.

I started dosing Seachem potassium 2 weeks into the experiment since the plant (don't know the name) that used to be in the right corner started to have curling and yellowing leaves. I deem it is a potassium deficiency and started dosing potassium. The plant recovered a little and start sprouting shoots all over but with slightly curled leaves. Looks a tad ugly and off it goes to the bin. I took a small shoot of the leaves and planted it in my tank and dumped the rest. Hope the new leaves will sprout nicer.

So far the fries are strong and healthy and cruise around the tank with no deformities like a 3rd eye or extra fins. Plants are obviously better looking and growing. No more yellowing and dead leaves. Moss in the right corner is adapting to my tank water and recovering as well. Note no other fertilizers was used other than those indicated above. The only thing added to the tank is several small pieces of coral rock to harden the water a little and provide calcium to the plants.

Summary:
The urine dose according to the urine composition chart will have a higher concentration of nitrogen compared to potassium but have an acceptable level of phosphorus. The calcium and carbon probably helped too. Think this will be a good source of phosphorus and nitrogen meaning you can skip dosing KNO3 and K2PO4 and dose only K2SO4 for the potassium source. No major concern with toxicity to fauna. If fries can survive the urine bath, think won't have any effect on most fishes unless again they are extremely sensitive type fish. I did have cherry shrimps deaths (about 10) which may mean it will have an negative effect on sensitive shrimps so no no for crystal red shrimp tanks.

But than again, my tank has murdered over 30 over shrimps in the past before the experiment and I think it is due mainly to the small size of the tank and the inconsistent water parameters since every little drop of stuff added to the tank has a much larger effect compared to a 2 to 3 feet tank.

I am doing a rough dosing regime for both my tanks and the result from my other tank (110 liters) which has a bigger bioload and higher density of plants is even more promising. Urine dose is 20 to 30 ml for this tank. I feed more liberally for this tank and it also housed my pet turtle so the bioload is roughly equivalent to 60 fish (40+ fish and 1 turtle). DIY CO2 and Seachem excel dosing every other day. Take a look at the floating plants for an indication.

Ignore the duckweeds and salvinia natans and look at the amount of baby water lettuce.

Before:


After:


Conclusion:
This experiment indicates to me that our pee can be a good alternative to dosing KNO3 and K2PO4 or KH2PO4. The only lacking substance is potassium and trace elements though I am not sure what trace elements are available in our pee. 

The plus point for pee? Cost savings on fertilizer usage since only K2SO4 and probably trace elements are needed. Helps in environmental conservation too since we are using less processed chemicals.

The negative? Might not be good for certain sensitive fauna like crystal red shrimps. I might be getting some more cherry shrimps to test for survivability in the tank. Any kind sponsors of free cherries which I might murder?  :Razz:

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## Shaihulud

The urea in the urine decompose ammonia and release CO which picks up another O to become CO2, that must be the carbon. The only urine in my tank is urine from the fish. My fish and livestock crap and pass too much waste as it is for me to contribute mine to the mess.

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## zyblack

Ok so at least I know I am adding carbon and something else to the mix. I have started a thread at APC with same issue and got some feedback as well. For those who are keen the link is here:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...anic-fert.html

I think the main concerns were the social stigma involved, the general disgust, the inconsistent content of urine and effect on fauna/flora. 

Medication or drug use is one factor to be considered. Alcohol use will also play a part. Think for this to somehow work, the person involved will have to be sure of his diet and his habits. So if you are medicating/abusing substance/alcohol, you are probably better off with the dry ferts. I am on medication for hyperthyroidism and taking magnesium/calcium supplements daily. I limit myself to 1 can of beer every 2 days though I mostly go 1 can a week. Hmm...maybe I can treat this as some kind of enforced diet where if I know I will be dosing "organic fert" tomorrow, I will be careful of what I consume. Not that bad an idea since I need to watch what I eat anyway. Expanding horizontally for sometime already.

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## Shaihulud

1 : 1 ratio of ammonia and CO2, not good in my opinion :Knockout:  . Fish will die if the CO2 is significant enough to make a difference, although ammonia is very good for plant  :Very Happy:

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## Shiv

Guys please remember not to dose your tank after any party. Who knows, you will find all the fish banging on each other........thats the after effect of beer  :Grin:

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## Shaihulud

If that is what makes our fishes bang we will be dosing alcohol enhanced urine to make them breed  :Smile:

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## zyblack

The idea is not to use the entire bladder. Nor dosing after consuming some toxic substance. We don't dump 100g of KN03 or 100ml of Excel into our tank so likewise you won't be unleashing your entire bladder of "organic fertilizer" into your tank. I am dosing only 10ml per 100 litres for my tank 3 times a week so the carbon value won't be so excessive as to poison fish. I have added an air pump powered foam filter to further aerate the bottom level water where my corydoras and shrimps swims which unfortunately also reduced the effectiveness of my DIY CO2.

Using E.I. method of dosing, we are aiming to dose 25 to 30 ppm of CO2 into our tank and 5 to 30 ppm of NO3 or in this case - ammonia. A ratio of 1 : 1 is good.

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## Shiv

Hi Avan,
Thats a great experiment you are caring out and judging by the results it just might give a tough time for all the fertilizer manufacturers. Please take my previous mail on the lighter side and in no way did I intend to mock you. Hats off to you for breaking from the treaded path and sharing your experiences with us. I am sure everyone in this forum is looking ahead to see the outcome of your experiment.
Best Regards

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## stephen chung

I am using it to cycle my tank :Grin:

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## zyblack

> Hi Avan,
> Thats a great experiment you are caring out and judging by the results it just might give a tough time for all the fertilizer manufacturers. Please take my previous mail on the lighter side and in no way did I intend to mock you. Hats off to you for breaking from the treaded path and sharing your experiences with us. I am sure everyone in this forum is looking ahead to see the outcome of your experiment.
> Best Regards


No worries about me taking offense. Sometimes when a subject is going to some serious debate it is always refreshing to let a little humor in  :Smile:  

I have been wondering if my arguments might be a little dry and brash since I may get overzealous at times. Pardon if my words are a little too preachy or argumentative. My social barometer has been a tad quirky lately. :Razz: 

Hmm...I might just go freeze up my pee and add some "special concoction" and then market it as "Magic-Gro Fertilizer Popsicles" (Step aside, Lushgro and ADA!). Save up on chiller bills as well  :Idea:

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## XnSdVd

:Laughing:  it looks like my role as guinnea pig has been usurped  :Wink:  

Good experiment though

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## Shiv

Hey Avan,
For everyone's sake please remember to put "Hazardous Substance Warning" and " Special handling technique required" tag on the label of that special potion. :Laughing: 

No worries man whenever I get a bit quirky with my friends I find solace on aquaticquotient  :Jump for joy:

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## zyblack

I just discovered a potential pitfall for this fert method. 

Sodium.

Forgot that pee contains a pretty high level of sodium though I can't put a quantitative figure as to how much is in urine. Sodium, in high concentration, damages plants via inhibition of nutrient uptake though again I am not sure which nutrients is inhibited.

I just realised this when I noticed my water lettuce growing smaller and did some search on the web and found out that water lettuce is sensitive to salt. And other than urine, I have been dosing salt a couple of weeks back when I suspected some parasite infection in my fish. The hydrophilla difformis, java ferns and umbrella ferns in the tank has not been affected at all though so wonder if it takes a much higher concentration of salt to affect them. Come to think of it, I also wonder if it is the sodium in my urine or the sodium in the salt that I dose that hurt the water lettuce. I did dose about 5 big tablespoonful salt for 100 litres of water...wonder if it is overkill. 

Think I will layoff salt dosing for a while and continue with my weekly water change to reduce the sodium levels in the water. I remembered that plants take in sodium too so hope the sodium level will normalise soon.

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## zyblack

> Hey Avan,
> For everyone's sake please remember to put "Hazardous Substance Warning" and " Special handling technique required" tag on the label of that special potion.
> 
> No worries man whenever I get a bit quirky with my friends I find solace on aquaticquotient


Hehe...I will add "Not for human consumption" to the list as well.  :Grin:

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