# Planted Tanks > Beginners' Corner >  Help me setup an ultra budget planted tank

## Navyblue

Hi,

I am not new to aquaria, but I am mostly a salt water guy. I do know the tank and fish basics, but I am very new to plant in general. I have been reading a lot regarding planted aquarium in the past few days, and I am attracted to the low tech low light low maintenance tank concept. I want to get my feet (or rather, hand) wet, but on a minimal budget.

Basically, I want a tank that I only have to feed the fish once a day, top off evaporated water, and do pretty much nothing else.

I think I have most of the stuffs already. The stuffs that I am going to use:

- 24"L x 18"D x 12"T custom made ADA style rimless
- Seio M620 for in tank circulation

*Fishes and shrimps*

I know I want some otos for algae control, the question is, how many? For the main fishes I would like a school of neon or cardinal tetras, and may be also some zebra danios. Again, the question is how many is appropriate to achieve nutrient balance with the plants?

I like shrimps, but they seem pricy? I don't know how much they cost. Feeder shrimps are cheap, but can they be kept alive in a planted tank? Do they eat poop or algae or both?

*Plants and substrate*

I think this is where the majority of the cost would be. I need to cover a 24x18" base area.

I am not fussy about what plant goes in, as long as it is hardy, and cheap. It seems that I have to fill it up with enough plant mass for the method to work. My question is, how can I do this in the cheapest possible way?

Also, some plants like java ferns do not require substrate, so I can use any cheap inert substrate. But, are plants like this the cheapest thing to cover the tank with?

*Filtration*

If possible, I want to do without mechanical filtration. I have canister filter and overhead filter in storage, but I really want to go the "natural" way if possible. Can I get away with this with a low bioload? For circulation I intend to use a Seio M620, which I think should be more than sufficient.

*Lighting*

I have a 70W and 150W MH lying around, but I guess they are too much. I would like to use LED bulb from eBay. How many watts do I need? It seems that 1.5W/G is for CFL, and for T5 1.2W/G is more appropriate. What about LED? It seems that a 9W LED bulb is equivalent to about 24W CFL?

*CO2*

I also have an unused CO2 tank, but I prefer not to use it.

Thanks.  :Smile:

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## felix_fx2

Hi, 

Your already have most of the stuff. 
Your lighting might be too much as you have guessed. Your can choose those lower tech plants that grow slower.

Feeder shrimps aka ghost shrimps. They scavenge by nature, so maybe you'll get some algae eating ones at the same time.

You can worry what type of substrate to buy since your don't have any to start Wu , I would suggest to go for those compressed pellet types aquasoil.

I'll probably pop by this thread a few days down again. In the mean tune you can check the other folk's setups and see.

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## ciaossu

yeah agree, you already got most of the stuff. what you lack now is aquasoil, some hardscape and plants. hardscape u can choose rocks or driftwood or both. GC has lots of nice rocks and drfitwood but they're quite exp. basic plants like fern, anubias, moss and crypt shouldn't be a problem. as for shrimps you can get fire red shrimp or yamato as your algae crew. fire red shrimp cost more though. you might wanna get some low grade red cherry shrimp to try out first.  :Smile:

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## Navyblue

Is aquasoil the substrate to go? Can I do without these fancy soil?

Also what is the cheapest easy low light plant to cover the tank with?

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## teowxu

hi navyblue, generally nice carpeting plants requires high tech(strong lighting, CO2, nutirents etc). The more common low tech carpeting plant would be hairgrass. However, in low light low tech tank, it will spread and cover the rest of the tank at a much slower rate. Perhaps you can try moss (eg.java moss, spiky moss,taiwan moss, flame moss). These variety of mosses are more common and cheaper. You can tie it to stainless steel mesh and let it mature over time. Using several pieces of meshes can create your carpetting effect in tank as well. Hope this helps!

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## Navyblue

Hi,

For the mosses, are as cheap as say, java fern? Are they supposed to be fastened to drift wood or are they supposed to be planted in the substrate? And how about no substrate?

I don't really care what plant is in there as long as it is cheap and will do well in a low tech tank.  :Very Happy: 

Anubias seems huge and thus need only a few to cover the tank.

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## ciaossu

Hi, for mosses you can get it from this forum marketplace. occasionally, there will be a few seller selling their mosses and sometimes some of them will be giving free plants. generally the common mosses from LFS range from $2-$5 depending on the species. java fern and anubias is also around that price range.

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## David Moses Heng

Hi. 

A very budget set up would be as follow:

1) lapis sand
2) Nanas or Java fern on drift wood
3) Clip on LED available in LFS
4) Any internal power filter would do.

For plants fertilisation, simply feed the fish enough and it will be enough.

I have set up and maintained low tech tanks with NO fertilisation. The only thing I did is to make sure that lighting is enough and I feed the fishes regularly.

For the shrimps, you can try cherry shrimp or malayan shrimps.

Hope these help.

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## Navyblue

> Hi, for mosses you can get it from this forum marketplace. occasionally, there will be a few seller selling their mosses and sometimes some of them will be giving free plants. generally the common mosses from LFS range from $2-$5 depending on the species. java fern and anubias is also around that price range.


Thanks for bringing up the marketplace forum, I think I will keep a close eye on it when I take the plunge.

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## Navyblue

> Hi. 
> 
> A very budget set up would be as follow:
> 
> 1) lapis sand
> 2) Nanas or Java fern on drift wood
> 3) Clip on LED available in LFS
> 4) Any internal power filter would do.
> 
> ...


Thanks.  :Smile: 

This lapis sand, I suppose it is inert? If so, do I need root tabs?

So for a tank full of plant, to achieve equilibrium, do I want heavy stocking and heavy feeding? Or do I want light stocking and light feeding?

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## David Moses Heng

> Thanks. 
> 
> This lapis sand, I suppose it is inert? If so, do I need root tabs?
> 
> So for a tank full of plant, to achieve equilibrium, do I want heavy stocking and heavy feeding? Or do I want light stocking and light feeding?


root tabs or not it depends on what plants are you looking at. For ferns and nanas, root tabs is not needed. Some other low maintenance plant like crypts are also not really demanding on root tab.

To achieve a balance, my take is that you will have to figure it out yourself cos everyone will have different encounters.

Hope this help.

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## Navyblue

Thanks again.

I think I'll stick to the the plant mentioned, and in this list.

http://thejakearium.com/2012/01/22/5...uarium-plants/

For a tank of this size, how many oto cats do I need? And where can I get them? C328?

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## teowxu

For me personally, around 5-6 otos will be sufficient. Otos tend to do better in schools. Not sure about the bioload but you have to take note that you need to feed otos some algae wafer now and then to supplement their diet. The algae may not be produced at a fast enough rate for their consumption everyday. (They may be starved if you dont feed them algae wafers or other algae rich food). Gnerally most lfs do stock otos. (just make sure they are settled down in the lfs before buying because most tend to be wild caught--> high chance of dying after being imported into Singapore).

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## Navyblue

I went to Aquastar the other day and didn't notice any oto (may be I missed). I think I'm paying C328 a visit later.

Yeah the mortality rate of wild caught fish is horrible. Actually by looking at some LFS tank, even farm bred fishes have horrible record. On a related note, what LFS has good reputation for quality livestocks?

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## ciaossu

for livestock you might wanna check JXZ their fish are kept in good condition or at least better than most of the LFS. C328 they kept their oto in a small tank with shrimps and cory, condition isn't very good. GC kept their fish in good condition too but abit expensive though.

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## Navyblue

May I know where is this JXZ? I don't find it in the LFS list. GC I suppose is Golden Classic at Tampines?

I just went to C328, I don't see any oto, I suppose I can't really identify it in real life.  :Very Happy:  I only have seen it online, but I'll worry about that later.

So I was at C328 trying to size up how my tank will look like if I bought the plants from there. With only drift wood mounted java fern and anubias nana and sand, I am not very optimistic that it would look good. I think I have a lot to think about.

Or may be what I need is a really suitable piece of large DW, put some moss on it and be patient till it cover the wood up. Or try do a moss carpet. That is assuming that the moss wouldn't die. And start with low bio load, and gradually increase the bioload as the moss increases.

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## David Moses Heng

JZX is at Ang Mo KIo central. GC is Green Chapter at Macpherson. Another good LFS IMHO will be Hong Yang at CCK Ave 4.

Regards.

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## Navyblue

Thanks.  :Smile: 

GC, is it the one with big Sera banner?

Which are the good places for plants?

For moss, I guess the forum members is a better source?

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## milk_vanilla

For plants purchase 

I used to go c328, seaview or online mizuworld or fishybusiness (tropica plants) 

Sent using Tapatalk 2

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## bravobb

I also been thinking about a similar setup as what Navyblue wanted.
For filter, instead of internal.. can i use a hang-on filter type ? I got one spare lying around.. it is those that suck water up and throw down like small water fall...

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## teowxu

navy blue: yes GC is the big sera banner shop(reachable by tai seng mrt)
if you want instant mass variety of plant to choose, do go pay a visit a local aquatic plant farm. There's one in pasir ris(capricorn farm if i never remember wrongly) and another at lim chu kang(teo aquatic plant farm if i never remember wrongly)
or you can order through lfs. y618 and c328 have plant catalogue for you to order. 

bravobb: i think should be alright as long as your tank is small(maybe 1 feet tank or less?)

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## bravobb

> bravobb: i think should be alright as long as your tank is small(maybe 1 feet tank or less?)


Thanks.
Actually i was thinking of getting a 2 feet (similar to Navyblue)... soil and plants. Livestock maybe tetra but not decided yet.
Can the Hang-on filter sustain with little water changed ?
I am thinking of doing something like this : http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Walstad.... to place in my bedroom or next to my computer.
Basically a once setup.. no maintenance thing...

PS: Sorry Navyblue.. hope you do not mind me asking questions on your thread..

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## Navyblue

Actually for me, I am thinking of no filter. The Diana Walstad's "natural" concept. I intend to have a circulation pump installed (the Seio), but even that I want to eliminate if possible.

Thanks all for your suggestions.  :Smile:

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## bravobb

Are you considering 1ft or 2ft ?
I wonder how regular the water top up between a 1ft and a 2ft ?

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## Navyblue

I already have the tank, which is a custom 2'.

I think the top off depends on the water surface area, or whether you have a fan installed. For a sumpless FW setup, I think the top up interval is less critical, may be weekly if with no fan.

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## bennyc

Hi navyblue,

Have you heard of singapore moss? They are free as you can pick it on grass patches if you look for it. No very sure if the bros here agree to it.

IMG_0588.jpg
Here is my small tank with singapore moss, 3~4 weeks, already grow tall.

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## bennyc

just to add, no CO2 injection, no T5 light, normal ikea table lamp. no fert. 

Hahaha no everything.

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## Navyblue

I heard of it, but I don't know you can actually find it growing in Singapore.  :Very Happy: 

This is interesting, where can I find them?

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## Navyblue

No everything is exactly what I wanted.  :Very Happy:

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## bennyc

dig up a old thread for your reading.
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...Singapore-Moss

Basically, it is everywhere just have to look for it, grass patches, hdb carparks etc.

sure, it fits your ultra budget.. cos it is have FOC.

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## bennyc

http://www.aquamoss.net/Singapore-Mo...apore-Moss.htm

this website help me "locate" the moss. 

Just be nice to nature and not harvest everything. Haha

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## Navyblue

Ok I'll go downstairs and hunt for it.  :Very Happy: 

If I find I'll leave a bit on each patch for it to re grow.

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## Navyblue

Is this it?

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## bennyc

bro I am not really sure myself , need the veterans here confirmation. IMO, the dark green ones seems more like it but the norm i use to see, sticks to the ground. hope it helps.

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## bravobb

:Laughing: ... like that also can.... but is it an effective nitrite/nitrate reducer ?
I think i also need to go hunting these few days see whether can find any to test test.... but will use a small tank with a few feeder as tester first.....  :Laughing:

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## bennyc

I believe moss are not very power nitrite/nitrate reducer. but it is my noob opinion. FOC moss does not work differently from expensive moss. In nature, everything is same "price".

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## bravobb

> I believe moss are not very power nitrite/nitrate reducer. but it is my noob opinion. FOC moss does not work differently from expensive moss. In nature, everything is same "price".


 That is quite true.
Anyway, i think i will only use it on a very small setup.. with a few tetra like livestock... wow... more savings... hahaha  :Laughing:

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## Navyblue

Ok, what are these?



I'm putting them in water to see if any would survive.

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## Navyblue

Is this java moss?

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## bennyc

if i am not wrong the last pic seems to singapore moss.

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## Navyblue

It looks quite like your moss to me. Did you get that from grass patch too?

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## Navyblue

I found this page which have a very detailed comparison.

http://www.killies.com/Truthaboutmosses.htm

I think it does look like Singapore moss.

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## Navyblue

It looks like, out of the 4, 1 is the submerged form of Singapore moss, 1 is the emersed form. (I suspected so, as I pulled the out of the same patch)

http://www.aquamoss.net/Introduction.htm

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## bravobb

Navyblue.... So how many "lands" you have destroyed to get these....  :Laughing:

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## Navyblue

I often see the town council worker plucking weed off the walkway, not only I do it for free, I pay them conservancy charges.  :Razz:

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## David Moses Heng

why not you tell us what you are really looking at so we know how to help?  :Smile: 

If necessary, I do not mind bringing you to my sources to get the stuffs that you need at either low or no cost.

PM me if you need my help.

Thanks.

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## Navyblue

I very much appreciate your offer. I do need your sources. I also need help judging if a plant is healthy. If someone can bring me to them and help me with the purchase that would be as good as I can wish for.  :Smile: 

I will PM you when I am ready. The tank is still filled with salt water stuffs right now, it may be a few weeks before I am ready.  :Smile: 

Basically, I want the tank look lush and green, with a bit of tetras and shrimps. All easy to keep and low maintenance species.

If necessary, I can also run it high tech at first to get the growth and then turn it to low tech after it is done growing. But would there be die off during the transition?

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## bennyc

> It looks quite like your moss to me. Did you get that from grass patch too?


Yes, i got mine from a grass patch.

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## bennyc

> why not you tell us what you are really looking at so we know how to help? 
> 
> If necessary, I do not mind bringing you to my sources to get the stuffs that you need at either low or no cost.
> 
> PM me if you need my help.
> 
> Thanks.


Bro .. So GOOD... Offer extend to others like me?

edit: please don't use sms lingo thanks.

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## Navyblue

I did further reading. Would it be a better idea to get something like wisteria or hornwort? It seems like they grow fast under any condition?

Where as things like ferns and moss grow slowly in low tech tank? Though I can still have with a bit of them for variety.

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## felix_fx2

Navyblue,

wisteria, grows root and crawl abit. grows really fast.
hornwort, floater grows well.

i would still suggest moss + fern combo, since you can just leave them near the window and they still grow. (depends on how bright sunlight comes to them)

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## Navyblue

May I know what is the rationale? Low maintenance?

To my newbie understanding, slow growing plant absorbs little nutrient, so we need lots of them to absorb the fishes' waste. Lots of them means money.  :Very Happy:  Without lots of them we would need good filtration and frequent water changes, which I would prefer to do without.

So instead of buying lots of ferns and moss, having some fast growing plant would absorb more nutrient while requiring less plant. Though with high light and nutrient I can see that this can be a problem, so if we limit light and nutrient (bioload) we can keep maintenance manageble?

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## bravobb

I am still waiting for you to start the adventure....  :Grin: 
I found myself a very small tank resting in my store... width less than a feet but close.
I just did an extra silicon on the edges in case leak water...
Going for water test run tomorrow.

So what soil do you recommend ?

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## Navyblue

I started moving some rocks from the tank yesterday, I'll need a week or two to ready the tank.

If cost is no issue, I might go with something like Seachem fluorite, looks like it is not messy like those mud type substrate. Or else I'd go with whatever innert stuff like river sand. Or if you don't care about look you can even do without substrate.

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## bravobb

Bro... i am talking about soil... not sand/substrate... I am going for a small tank using Walstad method.... sand with soil underlayer.

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## Navyblue

Anything that you lay on the bottom of the tank is substrate, sand, gravel, mud, even marble can be substrate.  :Razz:  You don't need to use "soil" with Fluorite, it has CEC.

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## bravobb

Sorry.. me a newbie... what is CEC ?

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## felix_fx2

It would be up to you to decide high or low tech.

If you had read Diana's book you'll know what she suggests.

If you feel the direction your heading is good, go ahead and just try. It will be good to learn from personal experience. 

I've got a couple of budget tanks myself, no co2, little fert, high (so so high). Some lapis, some garden soil covered with sand.

Let us know once you started on it (pictures pictures  :Smile:  )

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## bravobb

> It would be up to you to decide high or low tech.
> 
> If you had read Diana's book you'll know what she suggests.
> 
> If you feel the direction your heading is good, go ahead and just try. It will be good to learn from personal experience. 
> 
> I've got a couple of budget tanks myself, no co2, little fert, high (so so high). Some lapis, some garden soil covered with sand.
> 
> Let us know once you started on it (pictures pictures  )


You have Diana's book ? You bought online or from store here ?

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## David Moses Heng

i too have experienced good result with the garden soil method. My rams even breed in them. Pen your journey here and share with us all your adventure.  :Well done:

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## bravobb

I think i need to KIV till i can get hold of Diana.

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## Navyblue

I would be glad to journal the tank here. I would need to tap the wisdom of you old birds so that problems can be rectified before it is too late.  :Smile:  Also might be a good reference for those starting up. But I am afraid it would be boring one  :Very Happy: , sand at the bottom, some stem plants planted at the back and may be a piece of wood with some fern/moss on it in the middle.  :Very Happy: 

I still have a lot of newbie question. Like where can I buy the soil that you mentioned.  :Very Happy:  Would they muddy the water?

In Daiso's gardening section, I saw those dried tablets which can turn into soil when mixed with water. It says "peat" and the ingredient seems to be something like coconut husk. Can I use that?

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## David Moses Heng

If you are using garden soil, I got mine from 7-11 many years ago. They seems to have stopped selling them. Do note that for garden soil, you will need to top it up with lapis like what Felix has mentioned. I have not tried Daiso tablets so I can't comment. Alternatively, if you can, try base substrate like JBL base fert or other botique substrate like ADA/ANS/Borneowild. I may have an unopened bag of JBL base fert for sale. For the rest of the branded substrate, they are available at most good LFS.

Hope this helps.

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## bennyc

> If you are using garden soil, I got mine from 7-11 many years ago. They seems to have stopped selling them. Do note that for garden soil, you will need to top it up with lapis like what Felix has mentioned. I have not tried Daiso tablets so I can't comment. Alternatively, if you can, try base substrate like JBL base fert or other botique substrate like ADA/ANS/Borneowild. I may have an unopened bag of JBL base fert for sale. For the rest of the branded substrate, they are available at most good LFS.
> 
> Hope this helps.


May I know what is the purpose for topping lapis sand? To prevent the soil from floating around?

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## felix_fx2

> May I know what is the purpose for topping lapis sand? To prevent the soil from floating around?


Prevents you from making coffee besides having less floating stuff (if your using normal garden soil.)

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## wongce

> In Daiso's gardening section, I saw those dried tablets which can turn into soil when mixed with water. It says "peat" and the ingredient seems to be something like coconut husk. Can I use that?


those peat tablets are for cultivating potting/bonsai plants from seeds...

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## Navyblue

> those peat tablets are for cultivating potting/bonsai plants from seeds...


Thanks. I read that we could have some dusting of peat at the bottom, I suppose we can't use 1 thick layer of it.

I got some lapis sand from a forum member that would probably cover slightly less than 1" of the bottom. So I now at have at least the top cover. Now I'll either need more sand, soil, or one of those fancy substrate.

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## Navyblue

I don't know whether I should be doing the journal here. If mod think it is not appropriate I can move to other sub forums.

Anyway, here is my tank.



I custom made it in 2010 with the intention of using it as a clownfish/anemone tank. However, this is as far as it went before I lost interest and move on to other hobbies.



Lately I got back in the aquarium hobby. I consolidated both salt water tank to my main tank and emptied this tank. This is how it look like for a months or so. It is basically just a storage for liverocks.



I removed the sand today. When I figured out where to keep those liverocks, I could start filling it up with fresh water.

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## Navyblue

I browsed around the LFS for light units, most of them are those old fashioned light strips, not quite what I am looking for.

While rummaging in the store room, I found this.



It looks like my handiwork, however I have no recollection that I made it.  :Very Happy:  It seems like I made it for the refugium of my reef tank, and I don't remember even using it. So I intend to use it. I mounted it on a wooden plank from Daiso.



I initially had a different idea for the plank, it was a bit big for this. The distance between the 2 bulbs isn't even optimal. That is as far as the cable goes. I opted for the path of the least resistance.

I also slapped together a light stand with PVC pipes that I had for years. The pipes were meant to hang my 150W MH over my planned anemone tank, but never got around to do it. The structure of the light stand isn't what I planned for either, due to my calculation error. I should be getting more parts but I managed to change the design so that I can use only the parts I have. Again, the path of least resistance.  :Very Happy: 



The bulb aren't the right ones too. The blue bulb is meant for my reef tank and the warm white bulb is meant for my dining table. I am still waiting for my bulbs from eBay, which are 2x12W white LED spotlights, which I worry might bit a bit too much for a "low light" tank. I really have no idea what is the WPG rule for LED. All I know is my 9W toilet LED bulb is brighter than the 24W compact fluorescent it replaced. If they are indeed too much I can go for lower wattage bulbs.

The spot light bulbs have a narrow dispersion. I like narrow dispersion bulb because all the light are directed into where I wanted, and not wasted outside of the tank. The downside is a tall light stand is needed. However, consequently the heat source (the light bulbs) is placed far away from the tank and thus minimising heat issue, even though LED is very efficient to begin with.

One added benefit to this arrangement compared to the typical tank lighting that sits on the tank, is that I can have things sticking out from the tank. One of the reason why the tank is custom made to have such a shallow dimension is because at the time I wanted to have rock structure that protrude out from the water surface. Which lead me to the the concept I have for the tank: I want to have the plants sticking out of the water by about 1 foot or more. I imagine, the plant would be exposed to the CO2 in the atmosphere and gets more light as it grows taller. And the water underneath would be shaded to minimise algae issue. But concept is one thing, the execution is another matter. As a newbie I don't know how well would the idea work, I hope you gurus would guide me along the path.  :Smile: 

For that purpose, what plant should I be looking at? Swords? Or would anubias works too?

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## felix_fx2

You may want to adjust the PVC stand when the project takes off. Depend on the 12w LED and if it has reflectors.
As a backup suggestion those Phillips tornado series bulbs (E27 also) have 6500k ones that can be a alternative if LED does not work well i've got a 10w LED flood that on a normal 2 footer didn't feel right with just 1.

You do seem to be handy with small DIY, maybe consider making reflectors when the LED come. You might want to buy the Daiso longer planks narrow plank and just spray/paint them to the color you like.
you should have lots of room for free play still.

Anyway your still doing filter-less correct? the wave-maker you initially thought is already in possession? having some current is actually good.

BTW, i see cheato !!!!  :Razz:

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## Navyblue

The led spotlight has a very narrow beam, about 30 deg or so. There are very little light outside that hotspot. I actually have a pair of 24w tornado bulb, we'll see.

I just went to serangoon north, was expecting to find some substrate selection, but quite disappointing.

Now I am at ntuc looking at soils, may be I should just get these? Next stop would be Y618, never been there before.

Chaeto growing is my only horticultural experience.  :Razz:

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## Navyblue

I think I'm pretty set on the filterless. I already sold my unused overhead filter, I hate using canister filter as I think they are a pain to clean. I already have the wavemaker. Since the atmosphere is the only source of CO2, may be it is important to have to prevent algae growth. Personally I think the Seio is butt ugly  :Very Happy: , I would need some creative way to hide it. Another thing is that I prefer a still water surface so that I can view the tank from the top, we can;t have everything I suppose.

I will be using 2 pieces of the 12W LED spotlight bulbs that have its own reflector. An LED without some kind of lens or reflector typically has a beam angle of 160 deg or so. I determined the height of the light stand using the blue bulb (I assume the coverage is similar) to make sure I get even enough spread. I think I the light should be placed even higher up but I am unwilling to make the stand that tall.

But if you need 2x10W for a regular 2 footer, I suppose mine can't be that much after all.

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## Navyblue

I am more efficient than I thought.



I am quite surprised that all those rocks could fit into the sump, which is filled to the brim with rocks now. The tank is pretty much ready, except that I have yet to deal with the tubings and pipings that are no longer needed (you can still see the overflow box at the back of the tank). I still have to wait for the bulbs to come in before I can add plants. So in the mean time I can focus on the substrate question.

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## felix_fx2

The ones from ntuc can be used, tried them before. The brand Horti is fine, quite a few using..
In the case you do live near a plan nursery (like the one near boon keng, far east flora that stretch) plain potting mix works well too & their dirt cheap, $2.50 each for my last 3 bags.

the SEIO looks like a alien if it's going to be the ONLY running item  :Laughing:

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## Navyblue

I bought a 3kg bag of the horti soil, with the 10 kg of lapis sand I got, I think they would make about 1+", but I think I would prefer a bit more lapis sand.

Then while hunting for more lapis sand in the buy and sell forum I came across someone selling Fluorite, which by my estimation cover about 2-3" thick. I reserved it but will only collect it next week. It looks like the soil and the sand would be useless now. I always ended up with things I don't need when setting up tanks.

I think the substrate are more or less settled. Even if the Fluorite deal don't go through I can just add a bit more lapis from LFS. Now I can worry about plants.

From what I have read, it seems that apart from carpeting plants and red plants, most other stuffs can be kept in low tech tanks? Meaning most of those $1 a pot plant from LFS would work? I have a lot of trouble IDing plants. Matching online photos to the actual thing in the LFS is quite hard for me, they all look the same.  :Razz: 

And I want plants that can grow out of the water.

----------


## ciaossu

ya most of the $1 pot can grow in low tech, crypts also but they're $3 a pot a little bit expensive. you can use hairgrass or e tenellus as your foreground they do carpet but very slow.

----------


## Navyblue

Thanks.  :Smile: 

So between those grass like plants and moss, I suppose moss carpets faster?

----------


## milk_vanilla

if you don't know which typical plants that would grow well / nice & suit your taste. 
i suggest you plant multiple foreground plants option. After few weeks you can decide which suit you the most, because some plants that suit your taste may / maybe not suitable with your current tank environment.

Like formerly i like HC, but that was my first tank i have no knowledge at all. In the end, it's all rotten and melted. And discover nor i was providing them enough light / my tank temperature is quite high. I re-scaped majority of the plants, and i'm quite happy with mix of dwarf hairgrass & glosso. Similarly with mid & background plants

Hope it helps

----------


## Navyblue

Thank you.  :Smile: 

Yes, I very much like to avoid plants that have no chance of surviving. One of the first thing I learned running salt water tank is that never buy anything you don't know about. However that is quite a problem though since I can't ID the plant.

I think I can quite confidently ID water sprite and wisteria, both appears to be considered easy to grow. Along with anubias and the various ferns I think they make a decent variety already. Then I suppose I could add a few more pots of the $1 plant to see if they can survive.

Which leads to the question, where is a good place for plants? I wouldn't buy them so soon but I would like to see what are the commonly available species locally. What would be a good place for variety and quality? And which would be the best in prices?

----------


## bravobb

> Prevents you from making coffee besides having less floating stuff (if your using normal garden soil.)


Is this consider garden soil ?

----------


## felix_fx2

> Is this consider garden soil ?


yes, you also intrested to make "coffee" ?

----------


## bravobb

I already made one... in a new thread.. called the Small Cofftee Tank...  :Laughing:

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## Navyblue

Substrate is in. I might have gone overboard with the Seachem Fluorite. If my weighing scale is correct, it is 23kg.  :Very Happy: . Less than 1" at the front, slopes to 5" at the middle of the tank. I planned to get about 3" but I don't know what to do with those extra Fluorite.



I also have no idea on the aquascaping. For now, the slope stays this way. I'll have an anubias on driftwood at the middle of the slope. On the plateau I'll have stem plants and ferns, possibly emersed. The concept seems kind of like a riparium, not exactly what I wanted, but it is the only half decent thing I can picture. Any advice would be appreciated.

When the bulb comes, I can start adding plants. Or may be I can start to do that now and use the Philips Tornado bulb for the moment.

----------


## ciaossu

a riparium doesn't sound bad. http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/a....21327/page-12 hope this can inspire you and the tank is low tech  :Well done:

----------


## Navyblue

Thanks, inspiration indeed.

What plants are those? Those at the left are amazon swords? Those at the right I suppose are terrestrial plants.

Last week I paid a visit to the nurseries at Thomson to see what sort of plant that might be suitable. I am considering planting the lucky bamboo, but I read that it can develop massive roots. What would happen if the roots are not trimmed?

----------


## Navyblue

I found a good place to hide the Seio.  :Very Happy: 



The intake is under the substrate. I don't know if this would create problem though. I imagine the substrate particle is too heavy to be sucked in and the substrate is porous enough to allow water movement. But if it turns out to be a problem I can wrap a layer of filter material around the intake. This would also prevent shrimp/fish fries from getting sucked into the pump.

----------


## bravobb

> Substrate is in. I might have gone overboard with the Seachem Fluorite. If my weighing scale is correct, it is 23kg. . Less than 1" at the front, slopes to 5" at the middle of the tank. I planned to get about 3" but I don't know what to do with those extra Fluorite.
> 
> 
> 
> I also have no idea on the aquascaping. For now, the slope stays this way. I'll have an anubias on driftwood at the middle of the slope. On the plateau I'll have stem plants and ferns, possibly emersed. The concept seems kind of like a riparium, not exactly what I wanted, but it is the only half decent thing I can picture. Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> When the bulb comes, I can start adding plants. Or may be I can start to do that now and use the Philips Tornado bulb for the moment.


I kind of like the way you do the substrate. Beautified it further !  :Smile:

----------


## Navyblue

Thank you.  :Smile: 

But there is a problem with this arrangement. All the aquascaping form I can think of would be symmetrical, which tend to be frowned upon as it would look "unnatural".

Although personally I don't think it is that bad. If you visit those nicely manicured English style garden, it is always symmetrical. Natural looking? No. Still, no one like their garden to look like a jungle.  :Very Happy:

----------


## bravobb

Bro, it is personal liking... Go with your style. 
Unless you are making to sell, it should be unique and to your liking... where you enjoy looking at it everyday... No regrets... that is the most important... in my opinion.

----------


## Navyblue

That is true, I am the one that has to live with the tank.  :Smile: 

I filled the tank up to half way, and turned on the Seio. The water splashes is very noisy, so I removed it. Filling up the tank all the way would help, but I got a feeling that it would still make some splashing noise. May be I could try capping the top with a DW or something.

The first time I filled up the tank I took care not to stir the substrate. The water was cloudy. I got impatient and drain the water and fill the tank again. And then I give the substrate a good stir. I ended up with a coffee tank.  :Very Happy:  Drain the water again and fill it up. I suppose I need to be patient to wait for it to settle down.

One of the reason that I got a used substrate is someone has used it before and it should be reasonably clean. Well, so much for that. I did some research and turns out that Fluorite has a reputation of being extremely dusty. I think it has to do with the fact that it is made of clay, and stirring/transportation could cause the particles rub against each other and produce even more dust. This would make it impossible to make it completely clean like normal sand. I suppose the only way is to wait till bacterial film has form within the substrate which would bind the dust.

----------


## ciaossu

> Thanks, inspiration indeed.
> 
> What plants are those? Those at the left are amazon swords? Those at the right I suppose are terrestrial plants.
> 
> Last week I paid a visit to the nurseries at Thomson to see what sort of plant that might be suitable. I am considering planting the lucky bamboo, but I read that it can develop massive roots. What would happen if the roots are not trimmed?


Hi i believe mostly are cryptocoryne, you might want to go through the thread i think the owner listed down the plant.

----------


## Navyblue

Thanks.  :Smile: 

I think I have a change of plan. I think I would plant the plateau and leave the slope bare. Less area to cover and hopefully cheaper.  :Very Happy:  I would put some moss at the bottom of the slope and hopefully they can grow up and carpet the slope.

I have a question that I hope you guys could answer.

You know those anubias and various ferns tied to drift woods with fishing lines sold in LFS. They usually placed in a plastic bag with minimal water at the bottom. If I buy those plants and submerge them, would they shed leaves initially? And if I submerge the wood/roots/rhizomes in water but leave the leaves sticking out of the water, would the leaves dry up and drop?

----------


## Navyblue

> why not you tell us what you are really looking at so we know how to help? 
> 
> If necessary, I do not mind bringing you to my sources to get the stuffs that you need at either low or no cost.
> 
> PM me if you need my help.
> 
> Thanks.


I think I am about to get plants now, but I can't PM you since I am new here.

I need ferns and anubias in the short term to keep them emersed. And I would like stem plants like water sprite once my water clears up.

I am worried that if I submerge the plant when the water is cloudy the particles would settle on the leaves and I'd have trouble cleaning them. I think it would take many days for the dust to settle.

----------


## 5stars

> Is aquasoil the substrate to go? Can I do without these fancy soil?
> 
> Also what is the cheapest easy low light plant to cover the tank with?


Aquasoil will definitely give your plants an initial boost due to the minerals in the soil, helps to maintain the ph, and looks really nice, but is very expensive an not a necessity for planted tanks.

You can use fine gravel as an alternative substrate. A benefit of using gravel is that the tank will not become as cloudy should the substrate get accidentally stirred up. However, because gravel does not have any minerals/fertilizers, you will need to add root fertilizers and/or laterite or a layer of iron-rich substrate.

If you Google "Dutch Aquascape," you will notice that the majority of Dutch Aquascapes do not use aquasoil, and their Aquascapes are really, stunningly beautiful!  :Well done:

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## Navyblue

Thanks, even if it is a bit late for that.  :Very Happy: 

I do find the prospect that the substrate can be disturbed without clouding the water attractive. Thus I went with gravel style substrate, but apparently my research wasn't that thorough.  :Razz:

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## Navyblue

Light bulbs are in!



These "12W" bulbs don't look as bright as I thought. May be not even as bright as the 10W blue bulbs that I got. I guess you got what you paid for. But for low tech low light tank, I suppose it is fine.

Despite the tall light stand, you can still see the hotspot on the substrate.

I put on a filter hoping to clear up the water. I also put pieces of squid in the filter to speed up bacterial build up, which I was hoping to bind the floating fine dust.

Coupled with a couple of total water changes, it cleared up a bit, but far from crystal clear.



I think there is nothing stopping me from getting the plants now.

----------


## felix_fx2

> The first time I filled up the tank I took care not to stir the substrate. The water was cloudy. I got impatient and drain the water and fill the tank again. And then I give the substrate a good stir. I ended up with a coffee tank.  Drain the water again and fill it up. I suppose I need to be patient to wait for it to settle down.


1: Lapis also have dust
2: The 1st thingy i went organised by AQ i learnt how to use lots of news paper to lessen the dust
3:Welcome to Coffee Club AQ  :Grin: 




> Thanks, even if it is a bit late for that. 
> 
> I do find the prospect that the substrate can be disturbed without clouding the water attractive. Thus I went with gravel style substrate, but apparently my research wasn't that thorough.


Aquasoil is compressed soil, just like off the shelf soil you can buy. The make-up of them can be composed in a differently
Reference to Horti SG: http://www.horti.com.sg/pot/Potting.htm

Just mention below so you know
All Aquasoil also can make coffee, even brand new. They will crumble into mud like dust in the end, but that will take long.

You can leave the Squid in the water few days and let nature take it's time, good idea now to get some Hortworts (nitrate suckers).

Slightly OT, i see the remote for the lights near your linksys stuff. let me guess DX ???

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## mukyo

Actually reducing the amount of water helped settling the cloud faster.
This is valid and reason why planting is done with less water.

Keep it up. I want to see the slope progress. I have been sloping as well but they always flatten down in the end.
Not sure if because of underground filter or my corries.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

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## Navyblue

> 1: Lapis also have dust
> 2: The 1st thingy i went organised by AQ i learnt how to use lots of news paper to lessen the dust
> 3:Welcome to Coffee Club AQ 
> 
> 
> 
> Aquasoil is compressed soil, just like off the shelf soil you can buy. The make-up of them can be composed in a differently
> Reference to Horti SG: http://www.horti.com.sg/pot/Potting.htm
> 
> ...


How can newspaper reduce dust?

What is DX?  :Very Happy:  It is for an RGB LED bulb that I intend to use as moon light for my reef tank.

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## Navyblue

> Actually reducing the amount of water helped settling the cloud faster.
> This is valid and reason why planting is done with less water.
> 
> Keep it up. I want to see the slope progress. I have been sloping as well but they always flatten down in the end.
> Not sure if because of underground filter or my corries.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


Thanks.  :Smile: 

I thought with less water height, the suspended particles has less distance to travel down. Also if the particles are more concentrated in less water it would take less time to filter.

I imagine cories can flatten a slope. When substrate particle is moved it always moved down and not up. Over time the gradient will become lesser and lesser, unless it is very gentle to begin with (which would mean a very large tank).

Apart from moss, I don't really know what to do with the slope. If I go with something like e. tenelus or dwarf sag, I imagine they will be too tall and would take forever to carpet.

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## Navyblue

The water is still cloudy. Today I tried one of those water clarifier which is supposed to coagulate the suspended particle into bigger pieces where they then can be removed by filters. I am not sure if it does anything though.

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## felix_fx2

> How can newspaper reduce dust?
> 
> What is DX?  It is for an RGB LED bulb that I intend to use as moon light for my reef tank.


When you pour water to floor time. Use them cushion, of course there is my prefered method of WIWO (water in water out) but some sort of cushion still need so you don't make diluted coffee.

The dx is dx lor lol.  :Very Happy: 
Moon light I have!! Led strip hehe

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## Navyblue

I don't know where I got that bulb from, I normally just get the cheapest and don't care about the seller, assuming the feedback rate is reasonable.

When I pour water in, I use the filter pump to pump water from a pail into the filter. Under the filter outlet I have a cup to cushion the water fall. Substrate disturbance is minimal. But water is clearer a few hours after water change, but it never got totally clear. That said, I have not tried letting the water sit for a few days as I always change it everyday.

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## mukyo

It depends on how big the cup and the flow of water you are pouring in. 
The most important is the first water that touched the soil. 
It will touch and it will make a mess. Your cuahin must be big and your flow must be low. You can pour for 2 hrs and have a tank clear within less than a day or you can pour in 15min and have cloud for 5days. I have experienced both. 

If you dont have fauna why not drain the water? Wait settling a bit. And restart filling much slower. I have done this as well.
Remember they settle faster in less water.

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## Navyblue

I don't know if you read my posts, the tank is drained every day, and when it is filled it is only up to the substrate. I drained the water until the water level is below the substrate. And why do you have to wait after draining? There is no water and thus there is nothing to settle?

And how slow is slow enough to fill 5" of water in a 2' tank? I use the filter pump to fill the water partly because the water movement would not be faster than the filter creates.

I also disagree that larger the cup size the less is the disturbance. Obviously it has to be wider than the width of the jet, but the shallower the better, which is why something flat like a plate is normally recommended. I could use a big plastic bag but I doubt it would make much difference.

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## felix_fx2

Erm, you drain so much water daily? Then your squid is for ? Hehe

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## mukyo

Correct. Bigger i mean is wider.
Wow why you drain everyday. 
It is just supposed to be to redo the filling water part. 
I tought you are talking about water change.
And plastic worked. I also did that. They actually filled up bottom up nicely from spillovers.

You will now when you are too fast by the debris you awoken.

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## Navyblue

> Erm, you drain so much water daily? Then your squid is for ? Hehe


Mainly because I am impatient.  :Razz:  Yes it theoretically slows down bacterial build up, but at the moment it is of secondary importance to me.

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## Navyblue

> Correct. Bigger i mean is wider.
> Wow why you drain everyday. 
> It is just supposed to be to redo the filling water part. 
> I tought you are talking about water change.
> And plastic worked. I also did that. They actually filled up bottom up nicely from spillovers.
> 
> You will now when you are too fast by the debris you awoken.


I remove all water as I suppose that would remove the lightest particles that take the longest to settle. I know, I am impatient.  :Razz:

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## Navyblue

I made another total water change last night.

I have a theory. Usually the fine particles takes some time to settle down. They eventually settles deep into the substrate and get sort of "locked in" underneath where water movement is shielded. Due to my high sloping and repeated water changes, those fine particles not only move from top to bottom, they also move back to front due to my repeated siphoning. The problem is the front part of the substrate where the fines particles concentrate is too thin to "lock in" the fine particles and causes the constant cloudiness.

So while doing the water change, I also removed the substrate at the shallow part and wash it. This is also partly to clean up the coagulator clumps that settles down at the substrate, I have mixed feeling about this thing. Man it was dirty, I should have washed the whole thing before I put it in. I cleaned it to my usual sand cleaning standard. I also went extreme in draining the water by siphoning the water within the substrate with an airline tubing, until the siphon breaks.

The water was more cloudy last night than before the water change, but as of now this morning it is now what I called an acceptable aquarium clarity! Not going to win any clarity award but I'd say typical for a new tank, or may be even some of the established tank.

May be it is the cumulative effect of those actions, or may be it is the substrate washing, or may be it is just the bacteria establishing. I think I am almost done. May be one last water change.  :Very Happy: 

I also got some Seachem Flourish yesterday. I dosed to full tank size dosage despite the water level is low and most of it is substrate. I figure this would let the substrate absorb the fertilizer. Not sure if this is how CEC work, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt if I were to do another water change tonight and I am not turning on the light.

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## felix_fx2

> Mainly because I am impatient.  Yes it theoretically slows down bacterial build up, but at the moment it is of secondary importance to me.


So now is already have stuff planted in ?




> I also got some Seachem Flourish yesterday. I dosed to full tank size dosage despite the water level is low and most of it is substrate. I figure this would let the substrate absorb the fertilizer.


Bro, Lapis is inert how to absorb?  :Smile:

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## Navyblue

Seachem Fluorite is not lapis sand, it is supposed to be "fracted clay". I don't know what that means, I think it is a fancy word for crushed terracotta. It is not supposed to be inert.

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## Navyblue

I did a final (I promise) water change before putting the plants in. I did all I could to minimise cloudiness. I drained the substrate. with airline tube. I use airline tubing to siphon the water back into the tank for the first few inches, then with a small cup cushioned with plastic bag, then with a pump cushioned with a cup. It was crystal clear right from the start, until I turned on the Seio that is buried in the substrate.  :Very Happy:  Water has since cleared up a bit, but still cloudy.





There are two problems. The first is the plants are bigger than I thought.  :Very Happy:  I should have gotten the smaller ones. I thought it was a "first stage" purchase. But I think it is almost full now. The light has poor spread, pretty much all the lit area are filled with plants. The unplanted area are what I'd call the "light spill" zone.

The second problem is, I think it is harder to aquascape a riparium-ish tank, since I have to take care that it looks good both from the front and the top. The frotn view part is basically like a regular aquascaping. The top view part is more like floral arrangement.

I think the look isn't what I wanted. I don't quite like the jungle look, but I have since learnt that whatever you do with anubias, ferns and wood it is going to have that jungle look.  :Very Happy:  And the front view is quite crappy. Since when I stand in front of the tank I actually looked at it more from the top, so I prioritised that. Any advice would be appreciated here.

Also the anubias is in a bad shape. I heard that they are grown emerged at the farm. But I guess being out of the water for too long the leaves are rolled up. The leaves that has shorter stem seems to look better than those with a longer stem, even if those short stem leaves are actually not in the water. I hope it recovers/adjusts.

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## mukyo

Bro...
Thats...

Not nice 
Hahaha sorry
*runs away*

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## Navyblue

Why run away? As I have stated numerous times, the whole point of this thread is me, who is doing this the first time, would like to tap the collective wisdom of you gurus to prevent and correct any mistakes before it is too late.

Please, if you have a better idea, share it.  :Smile:

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## mukyo

*coming back*
Lol
I think can follow the ada boss here
http://www.adaaust.com.au/support/takashi_amano.htm

All about plant composition.

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## Navyblue

I have seen that. The thing is how do you translate the "nature's aquarium" concept to low tech tanks that limit the plant species? And also remember the "ultra budget" part of the title.  :Very Happy:  Which is why most Walstad method tanks are the "jungle" style.

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## mukyo

Bro. Composition i am talking about is about placement of plants. Not about how many types of plants you can choose.
Neither the number of plants you put. 

Google golden rule of photography if you had time.
One thing easiest to try. Avoid dead center compo.
So far i have seen only one tank in aq with dead center compo that is really looked good.

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## Navyblue

The anubias peak is placed exactly in the line of third.  :Razz:  That said I have limited respect for things like golden ratio or RoT.

I think it has every thing to do with plants, different plants creates different textures. And as said, the plants are so big that there is no way to create shapes as the plants are taller than the water it is in.

Also scaping a tank that is visible from 4 sides is very different from a tank that is meant to be viewed from 1 side. It is more like pond scaping and flpral arrangement than.

Any way, it is not done and I am buying more plants for the foreground.

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## Navyblue

More plants. I have never planted some much plants in my life.  :Razz:  I don't know half of their names. I hope they would work in a low tech setup.



Still, I think the front view doesn't look as good. I thought the rows of stem plants make it look like some kind of backyard farm (not in a good way).  :Very Happy: 



Is this what I planned for? Not really.  :Very Happy:  As said I am not much of a fan of the jungle look, but I hope it would grow denser, a sparse looking jungle is an ugly jungle.

I think the shallow dimension isn't really suited for the "conventional" planted tank. In case you aren't following the earlier posts, the tank was custom made for a shallow reef, which allow modest (relatively speaking, 150W MH) lighting for light hungry animals like anemones. For a planted tank, I think it looks like a pond/tank hybrid.

Also, if there is one colour that I hate most, it would brown. I am really not a fan of the look of that terracotta looking regular Fluorite. But it was a good deal and being "ultra budget" means compromise has to be made.

So far the cost tally:

Tank: free (I already have it)
Powerhead: free (I already have it)
Light fixture: free (I already have it)
Light (eBay 2x12W bulbs): $11.5
Seachem Fluorite (23kg): $20
Plants: $22.5
Wood: $6

Total: $50

Others:
Seachem Flourish: $7
Interpet Filter Aid: $7
Lapis sand (10kg): $5 (not used)
Potting mix (4kg): $4 (not used)

Not exactly "ultra budget". Plant wise, I think it is mostly done. Although it highly depends on what I add next. I hope it has sufficient plant density for Walstad style NPT. Next would be fishes, possibly shrimps. Again, I will take my time.

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## Shadow

> I think the shallow dimension isn't really suited for the "conventional" planted tank. In case you aren't following the earlier posts, the tank was custom made for a shallow reef, which allow modest (relatively speaking, 150W MH) lighting for light hungry animals like anemones. For a planted tank, I think it looks like a pond/tank hybrid.


Not really, IMO your tank actually perfect for aquascaping, 24x18x12(h) inches. 24"x12" will give you nice panoramic front view. 18" wide will give you extra depth perspective.

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## felix_fx2

> Seachem Fluorite is not lapis sand, it is supposed to be "fracted clay". I don't know what that means, I think it is a fancy word for crushed terracotta. It is not supposed to be inert.


Never noticed you used all Fluorite (then you bought the lapis to be white elephant  :Grin: ), from seachem's site it says it not inert but can use forever? 

http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod.../Flourite.html
P.S: Shadow you have used before Flourite before?

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## Shadow

nope, never use flourite before, dont like the look of it  :Razz:

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## |squee|

You must be the guy who bought my Flourite.

Keep the unused portions.. you will need them over the year as the substrate flattens itself out or gets reduced due to many water changes.

You need wood or stone to define the scape, and maybe minimize the appearance of the substrate which is frankly very distracting, through the use of foreground plants. Perhaps follow this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...0-AIOB-8#t=71s

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## Navyblue

I remember reading the Seachem tech support forum, some guy asked how long would Fluorite last, the tech support guy replied that it would last forever. But I think it is just a bonus for me, I would be quite content with lapis sand.

Frankly I also don't like the colour.  :Razz:  I think the greyish black one would be fine. I tend to hate all things brown. The brick colour and the rows of seedlings really reminds me growing food plant in kampong houses, add some chicken it would be perfect.  :Very Happy: 

Anyway, I tore it down. Couldn't stand the messy look.

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## Navyblue

> You must be the guy who bought my Flourite.
> 
> Keep the unused portions.. you will need them over the year as the substrate flattens itself out or gets reduced due to many water changes.
> 
> You need wood or stone to define the scape, and maybe minimize the appearance of the substrate which is frankly very distracting, through the use of foreground plants. Perhaps follow this?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...0-AIOB-8#t=71s


Oh you are the guy.  :Very Happy: 

I agree that there is a lack of definition. And being a low tech tank, it's hard to do a carpet to cover the substrate.

There is also another thing that I am very particular about, is that I can not stand having things touching the glass panels. IMO, it can look nice from the front, but the side view would be quite unsightly.  :Very Happy:  If it was a reef tank, I won't even allow things touching the back glass. But I allow things touching the back glass now, so I am making a lot of effort here.  :Razz:  If it is up to me, I would like an iwagumi setup, nothing need to touch the glass, but it is a low tech so that is out of the question.

I know, why would I want to limit myself? But I can't help it.  :Razz:

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## Bieffe

I was having gravel previously so used a gravel cleaner to suck and clean. Not that I am using GEX substrate do I still need to suck to clean or just leave it?
Another problem are my plants keep floating out after planting them. My substrate is about 3-4cm deep...but it comes out.

Thanks.

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## Bieffe

> You must be the guy who bought my Flourite.
> 
> Keep the unused portions.. you will need them over the year as the substrate flattens itself out or gets reduced due to many water changes.
> 
> You need wood or stone to define the scape, and maybe minimize the appearance of the substrate which is frankly very distracting, through the use of foreground plants. Perhaps follow this?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...0-AIOB-8#t=71s


 Just watched the video... it's so nice! I don't see any filter....is it because they are using canisters type hidden below? I see some pipes at the sides I thought*that's for co2.

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## Shadow

its from ADA of course nice  :Laughing: . The canister is inside cabinet. Those pipe is the outlet and inlet via lilypipe. CO2 is the one connected to the diffuser, you see the tiny bubble floating up.

----------


## Bieffe

How about my cleaning question?

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## felix_fx2

> I was having gravel previously so used a gravel cleaner to suck and clean. Not that I am using GEX substrate do I still need to suck to clean or just leave it?
> Another problem are my plants keep floating out after planting them. My substrate is about 3-4cm deep...but it comes out.
> 
> Thanks.





> How about my cleaning question?


You realized this is hi-jacking  :Laughing: 
Lightly rinse the one that are already mud, not until sparkling clean. We use strainer.

Planting is practice and skill, search the forum. Many others have the same problem before. Then again it takes time and practice + many backbreaking sessions. 




> I remember reading the Seachem tech support forum, some guy asked how long would Fluorite last, the tech support guy replied that it would last forever. But I think it is just a bonus for me, I would be quite content with lapis sand.


The product page also said last forever  :Smile: 
There are some low tech setups that don't even need dosing of ferts. If your dosing some every alternate day, it should be fine..

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## |squee|

> Oh you are the guy. 
> 
> I agree that there is a lack of definition. And being a low tech tank, it's hard to do a carpet to cover the substrate.
> 
> There is also another thing that I am very particular about, is that I can not stand having things touching the glass panels. IMO, it can look nice from the front, but the side view would be quite unsightly.  If it was a reef tank, I won't even allow things touching the back glass. But I allow things touching the back glass now, so I am making a lot of effort here.  If it is up to me, I would like an iwagumi setup, nothing need to touch the glass, but it is a low tech so that is out of the question.
> 
> I know, why would I want to limit myself? But I can't help it.


I hope you got back home that day without getting caught in the rain.  :Very Happy: 

It's not hard really. You could put moss on stainless steel meshes all over the front and let them grow out.

You could do something like this then if you don't want anything touching the glass:



I envision getting a kickass piece of wood, some rocks to act as the base. Put the rocks and the wood in, then fill the centre in with the Flourite. Plant Bolbitis, Java Fern, moss. Lay a thin layer of sand on the rest of the exposed tank base. Get some schooling fish like Rasboras to swim round and round.

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## Navyblue

Thanks guys for your advices so far.  :Smile: 

Although it looks pretty much the same, believe it or not, I did a total revamp.



I removed one of the java fern, I think they are too overwhelming. You can see they is a hole in the middle of the tank, it is shaded by the anubias on top so I can't plant anything there. Inside that hole, you can see a small patch with light. I think I'm going to put either moss or dwarf hair grass.

Aquascaping is a royal waste of time. I don't want to do this anymore.  :Razz:

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## Navyblue

> I hope you got back home that day without getting caught in the rain. 
> 
> It's not hard really. You could put moss on stainless steel meshes all over the front and let them grow out.
> 
> You could do something like this then if you don't want anything touching the glass:
> 
> 
> 
> I envision getting a kickass piece of wood, some rocks to act as the base. Put the rocks and the wood in, then fill the centre in with the Flourite. Plant Bolbitis, Java Fern, moss. Lay a thin layer of sand on the rest of the exposed tank base. Get some schooling fish like Rasboras to swim round and round.


That is one nice tank. Seems similar dimension to mine.

Initially I did plan to do a moss carpet, but scraped the idea as it seems that they take a long time to grow, and they are relatively expensive. And so is a kick *** piece of wood.  :Razz:  May be next time, when I am not on a budget. Although I can collect wild singapore moss which is free.

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## Shadow

> Aquascaping is a royal waste of time. I don't want to do this anymore.


Give up so fast?  :Opps:  You have not experience anything yet  :Laughing:  trimming, plant rotting, algae attack, etc  :Opps: . Scaping is the easiest part, maintaining it is much more difficult  :Laughing:

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## Navyblue

As mentioned, I don't intend much more than just feeding the fishes. That is why I am opting Walstad's NPT, so far most of my tanks has similar philosophy.  :Smile:

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## Shadow

OK, planted tank then not aquascaping  :Laughing:

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## Joy

I am beginning to see both Planted tank and Aquascaping beyond a past time hobby... It a piece of Art... From planning, creating to maintaining, every successful step require much creativeness and determination of the "artist".

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## Navyblue

I agree, a nice tank is a piece of art by the artist who made it happen.

I don't know how many of you actually read what I wrote. This tank was set up as a reef tank, connected to my tank. For years it never passed the setup stage. The reason being, I prefer to live my life over being a slave of yet another tank.  :Very Happy:  I think it is a waste to sell off or dump a custom made tank, so I have to turn it into something without ruining my life, in time and in money.

The easiest and most obvious path is to turn this into a soft coral tank, since I already have most of the stuffs in the store room. However the problem is no matter what I do, this tank would just look lame sitting next to a bigger and more sophisticated tank. Then I came across Diana Walstad's NPT, I figure this might be the ticket and here I am.

Those Amano tanks are nice and pretty, but they are really not what I am looking for right now. If you know me you'd know that a "pass time hobby" is the last thing I need. Not because I am that busy a person, it is because I already have too many of those.  :Razz:  And for me to go beyond that, that is not even a question.  :Very Happy: 

But if any of you would like to get your hand wet and turn this artistic piece of nature that you envision, you are more than welcome. And I am very serious.  :Very Happy:  And from one artist to another, I would absolutely not question your artistic decision and accept it as you intended. In return I would feature your art prominently in my living room.  :Razz:

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## wongce

Haha, you are asking help for helpers to scape for you? lol.. 

I admit scaping can be a bit frustrating sometime... follow this and that, get this and that ..but hey, that the fun of it... haha 

I have 3 tanks currently, and i spend around 5-10 mins a day just to do some simple feeding and topping up/partial wc of water...thats the benefit of low tech set up.

I have been following your post, i think you just want a nice tank with minimal maintenance... not easy but not impossible... 

IMHO, you should stick to driftwood with some hardy ferns as per SQUEE suggested in the picture he posted..simple yet nice... sometimes the hardest thing is to keep things simple... 

Don't give up as seriously, your post has gather a lot of interest... :Smile:  keep it up bro...

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## Joy

> I agree, a nice tank is a piece of art by the artist who made it happen.
> 
> I don't know how many of you actually read what I wrote. This tank was set up as a reef tank, connected to my tank. For years it never passed the setup stage. The reason being, I prefer to live my life over being a slave of yet another tank.  I think it is a waste to sell off or dump a custom made tank, so I have to turn it into something without ruining my life, in time and in money.
> 
> The easiest and most obvious path is to turn this into a soft coral tank, since I already have most of the stuffs in the store room. However the problem is no matter what I do, this tank would just look lame sitting next to a bigger and more sophisticated tank. Then I came across Diana Walstad's NPT, I figure this might be the ticket and here I am.
> 
> Those Amano tanks are nice and pretty, but they are really not what I am looking for right now. If you know me you'd know that a "pass time hobby" is the last thing I need. Not because I am that busy a person, it is because I already have too many of those.  And for me to go beyond that, that is not even a question. 
> 
> But if any of you would like to get your hand wet and turn this artistic piece of nature that you envision, you are more than welcome. And I am very serious.  And from one artist to another, I would absolutely not question your artistic decision and accept it as you intended. In return I would feature your art prominently in my living room.



Oh no its definitely a bad idea... Your tank won't get any better, what's worse is the mess I will leave behind in your living room  :Smile:  My apologies for the lousy encouragement earlier.

May i quote YOU? "Be not a slave of your tank!" This is soooo true. A subject of beauty is joy forever. So whether it is abstract art or something else, so long it stirs our mind with joy, it is an art form that has to be encouraged. It is the comprehension that lends character to it.

Every setup has an individual identity and should take on a life of its own. It is done without having to create something in an exacting way. It’s creating with the freedom to enjoy the process. 

I have setups that is abandoned too. I just had to stop as things seemed overdone and overlapped... My mind simply got more "muddied" than the substrate  :Smile:  And yes, each setup inspires the next one. Apply experience and discovery into it. Be open, be brave, be experimental. At worst, it is just going through the motions... but, it is still art.... Art for arts sake... Just feel good right  :Smile: 

We should be expressing something within, and not creating art for someone to judge. Similarly to me, Amano tanks are indeed an eye opener... But I have a whole new admiration for the end product when I get to witness every evolvement  :Smile:  

Art or Hobby, is about the process, not the single work.

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## Navyblue

Thanks guys for your pep talk.  :Smile: 

Back to the aquascaping. For now I am done buying stuffs. And whatever I do now or in the future, the orange substrate border would stay. The orange is what bothers me most right now. What do you guys suggest I do? If I use those dark coloured flat pebbles to line the borders and also that "hole" in the middle, do you guys thing it would look cheesy?

I think the plants are not in a good shape, particularly the anubias, rotala?, blyxa and the jungle val. I think I have to leave them alone for a whole first.

Some of the anubias leaves are wrinkled, what do you suggest I do?

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## Urban Aquaria

Anubias can be grown emersed (they are actually like that in nature, growing on the edges of streams and waterfalls), but they still need to be in a humid/moist environment. I had some in previous tanks which grew tall enough that the the leaves poked out of the surface and even popped out flowers, but it was because they gradually grew up that way over many months, not immediate.

Maybe your current ones are submerged versions, so need time to transition from immersed to emersed. The old weaker leaves would probably wilt and shrivel before new stronger emersed leaves grow out (perhaps you'll need to mist them a few times a day in the meantime).... at least that was my experience so far with anubias plants.

Yeah, this planted aspect of the hobby requires alot of waiting and waiting (and more waiting), very good for training patience... when i started out i also rush and dump alot of plants in my tanks in the hopes of creating a masterpiece the next day, but quickly found out that plants need time to grow and mature, so i've also learnt to tune back and let nature develop at its own pace.  :Grin: 

Btw, your thread has inspired me to try incorporating riparium style planters and floating rafts in my tanks too, create some natural shady areas for the fauna.  :Smile:

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## Navyblue

Thanks, I am not sure if I deserve to be any kind of inspiration.  :Razz: 

Against my better judgement, I messed with the plants again. I don't know if I am going anything wrong, or it's just the coarseness of this substrate, planting is terribly hard. It goes like this: plant A, plant B, A floats, plant A again, plant C, A B C all floats. An accidental nudge can mean that I need to replant the whole patch again. Some plants are harder than the others because they are extremely buoyant (the jungle val and the unknown plant at the front right). Last night I started at 7pm, I ended at 5am. That is 10 hours of my life gone. I am so regretful that I wasted my time like that. Some plants are replanted so many times that there are barely any roots left. If I do this a few more times I can go take part in the subaru hands on challenge.

I am also afraid to add more livestocks, some plants would float at the slightest disturbance. At least not before they grow more roots. I hope they don't die as well, which would mean I have to mess with it again. I really am not doing this again

The wisteria is removed, but I added more plants.

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## felix_fx2

Hello,

The emersed leaf lacking moisture, hence the crumpling. You can give them some moisture every morning, just abit will do fine. (Give it time, some will die as per mentioned by Urban. But they will grow back given sufficient light and moisture)

There is no shortcut to making the plants root and the more you play the less likely they will grow well.
Plant them deeper, they will grow out.

Btw, just curious are you using tweezers? If so, you can actually try after "poking" them in the substrate, wriggle the tweezers slightly and allow the substrate to fall into the the hole made from planting.

Oh yah, suddenly you added pebbles :P

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## Navyblue

For the leaves that doesn't seem they are going to make it, is it better to trim them or just leave them alone?

I was hesitant to plant them deeper at first. I read that rosette plants need to have their crown above the substrate or they'll rot. But for the the dwarf sag (I think), I have to plant them deep or they'll float. After everything is done then I pull them out slowly to the right depth.

I was using a tweezer with bent tips for most of the planting. I didn't know the wriggle trick. For most of the planting I grab the plant by the root and drag the plant through the substrate. I find that this way the root would be totally buried. for the larger plants I have to use a satay stick to hold the plant in place while I retrieve the tweezer, and then use the tweezer to compact the substrate. I think I would leave it alone for at least a week or two, at least I hope I can do that.

In person, I think the pebbles made significant difference in look despite having the same layout, as said the bright orange is very distracting.

In the mean while I would do more reading on livestocks. I am interested in some shrimps. I read that the hardier shrimps like cherry seems to be a good idea for beginners. I have one question regarding their population. If they keep on multiplying, wouldn't the population overwhelm a small tank's bioload easily? My current plan is to introduce 3 pairs. Once the next generation grow into a good size I'll add a shoal of small fishes which should provide some control to their population. That is if they can actually survive and breed.  :Very Happy: 

But in the mean time, the tank would be very much empty for a few months or so. Would the plant need fertilisation? I suppose N and P are most important? Can I don't dose K and Fe? I already have the Seachem Flourish though.

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## |squee|

Grab the base of the plant with tweezers, push them into the substrate at an angle, then open the tweezers while the tips are still in the substrate and pull them out vertically.

Cherries are easy to keep. No worries on population control as if they get really out of hand, you can always sell some. Mesh up your filter intake if you're going to keep them though. I've freed some poor shrimps from my filter before, and I only mess with my filter twice a year.

Start fertilising when you see bright green new growth on the stemmed plants.

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## Navyblue

I think there are new shoots/branches on the bacopa that I don't think it was there when I bought them, but I can't be 100% sure. There are also lighter green new leaves at the tip of the rotala, though I am not sure if that is the way it was. So is this time to dose? And what do I dose?

There is no filter in this tank, only a Seio with the intake buried in the substrate.

There is also a layer of film developing on the surface.

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## milk_vanilla

you can start with flourish for general dose, especially if you considered your tank is low tech tank. and keep monitor the growth from there.

I'll do mine with that + instructed dose excel, on my goldfish tank with plants (anubias variety).

For hardcore tank,

you could dose NPK + Trace, by following couple of method (EI, EI low tech, PMDD, Perpetual Preservation, etc)

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## Navyblue

A low tech tank uses fish poop as fertiliser. My tank has no fish. Doesn't the plant need to get NPK from somewhere? But of course I can feed an empty tank.

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## felix_fx2

> A low tech tank uses fish poop as fertiliser. My tank has no fish. Doesn't the plant need to get NPK from somewhere? But of course I can feed an empty tank.


Low tech can dose also. Lighter dosage.
Erm maybe it's time to put some feeder fish, if not mosquito breed your family will complain. or you can still feed empty tank  :Smile: 

time to exercise eye power !!!

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## Navyblue

Thanks for mentioning eye power, it's not something that I have a lot right now.

I think I'll have to still feed the tank to keep the bacteria going.

Btw, for those fishless shrimp tanks, do they have mosquito problem?

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## felix_fx2

Training, i learnt that the way your learning it too (itchy hands the minute the eyes look at tank)
just throw abit will do, have other things to keep yourself occupied. Like reading fourm and see what others have done, did and did wrong.

Shrimp tanks normally don't have still water. Airstone/overflow

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## AQMS

I agree with felix,its the 'itchy hands syndrome' which i am having right now :Grin:  let it be for a couple of weeks 
and see how it goes.

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## Navyblue

> Training, i learnt that the way your learning it too (itchy hands the minute the eyes look at tank)
> just throw abit will do, have other things to keep yourself occupied. Like reading fourm and see what others have done, did and did wrong.
> 
> Shrimp tanks normally don't have still water. Airstone/overflow


How still is still? The surface is not devoid of movement, but definitely not reef tank turbulent where you can't clearly see through the water surface.

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## Navyblue

> I agree with felix,its the 'itchy hands syndrome' which i am having right now let it be for a couple of weeks 
> and see how it goes.


Actually I am afraid to dip my hand into the water for fear that something would float.  :Very Happy:  If something floats, I'll have to at least waste half an hour fix it and its collateral damage, that is if I am lucky.  :Razz:

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## Navyblue

I would like to acquire more eye power. Is this potassium deficiency?



When I got it, it was a small brown spot. I has since grown to a few times the size.

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## wongce

No water movement is consider still water.you do not have any filter or aeration running in the tank right? So it may become mosquito's breeding ground.

Fertilizer wise,you just need to mix in half dosage of seachem flourish and adjust accordingly when you have fish.

I suggest you add some commando fish in as poo providers and mosquito deterent. 

Low tech= slow growth. So everything is sloooowed down. You can't expect plants to root fast too. Let nature takes its own pace.

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## Navyblue

I am not worried about trace elements, which is what Flourish is. Or even K and Fe. After the initial dose from what I have read they should last a long time in a low tech tank. I am worried about N and P, where they are derived from fish waste in a low tech tank, which I don't have.

Why is it that I feel that no one is reading what I said.  :Razz:  For the water movement, there is a Seio hidden in the substrate. I mentioned it multiple times and there is even pictures.  :Razz:

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## wongce

Seachem has a few products 
Seachem Flourish is a almost complete fertilizer
Seachem Frourish Trace...what you meant in previous post
Seachem Flourish Excel...liquid carbon
Seachem Flourish NPK...
ETC

I am not seachem salesman by the way...lol

Seio hidden in substrate? if the "wave" is sufficient to deter mosquito breeding then should be ok... but its hard to gauge what Mosquito Grade "commando or recruit" is flying and laying eggs...lol

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## Navyblue

I imagine if I were a mosquito, I would have problem floating stationary, although I don't see how it would stop me from laying egg, assuming it is like pooping. But then I am neither mosquito nor female.  :Very Happy: 

Flourish is pretty much everything plants need, minus the macro nutrients. Well it actually has NPK but they are negligible, which is their major selling point. So I call it trace, although it's technically the mid and micro nutrient. As for the actual Flourish Trace, I think it has only micro nutrient, and I wouldn't waste my money on it.

Then there is the N, P, K, C (Excel) and Fe (which is a trace actually). I am also not a Seachem salesman.  :Razz:  I am about to buy most of them, although most of them would be redundant once the tank is stocked and running.

From what I read, correct me if I am wrong, I need the system to be limited by N and P. Reasonable over abundance of the rest (K, C, Fe and trace) would be rather harmless. But over abundance of N and P would favor algae over plant growth. But this would be a challenge in a low tech tank as the tendency is that it would be C limited.

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## felix_fx2

uploadfromtaptalk1358315145517.jpg

Everyday train eye. Hands focus on another tank. (Good excuse to get a testing tank)

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## Navyblue

Thanks. That is a useful and easy to understand chart.

It also says that is a K deficiency.

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## wongce

Bro, you are setting up a low tech with minimal maintenance right? the normal Seachem flourish (general one) + Seachem flourish Excel is good enough already... i dose weekly according to manufacturer instruction in my low tech tank...but my low tech tank has more plants than yours... :Smile:  so i think you can half the dosage.. 

Seachem is very diluted compared to lushgro series... but for low tech, it is good enough....

haha, for mosquito... you just monitor as you are now. If no issue, then don't bother ...

once you tank is cycled with sufficient fish poo, you may even skip fertilizer... if there is no deficiency whatsoever with your plant  :Smile:  the word balance is the key... but not easy to find the key...haha good luck bro...

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## Shadow

IMO, finding balance in low tank is much harder that high tech  :Laughing: . I'm not good at low tech  :Razz:

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## felix_fx2

Lowtech with highlighting good  :Razz:

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## wongce

fully agreed!!!!!

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## diazman

> IMO, finding balance in low tank is much harder that high tech . I'm not good at low tech


hahaha! im not good with high tech tank  :Laughing:   :Grin: 

Algae! Algae everywhere!

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## felix_fx2

> hahaha! im not good with high tech tank  
> 
> Algae! Algae everywhere!


LOL, algae is already everywhere in low tech. Just how fast they grow and how much the mass is...

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## diazman

> Thanks. 
> 
> I thought with less water height, the suspended particles has less distance to travel down. Also if the particles are more concentrated in less water it would take less time to filter.
> 
> I imagine cories can flatten a slope. When substrate particle is moved it always moved down and not up. Over time the gradient will become lesser and lesser, unless it is very gentle to begin with (which would mean a very large tank).
> 
> Apart from moss, I don't really know what to do with the slope. If I go with something like e. tenelus or dwarf sag, I imagine they will be too tall and would take forever to carpet.





> LOL, algae is already everywhere in low tech. Just how fast they grow and how much the mass is...


 :Laughing:  haha. my last tank became all you can eat algae buffet when i forgot to set the timer off properly. visitor came to my house and replied "wah. nice tank very green. new kind of plant you growing ah??" *facepalm*  :Grin:

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## horst

I read the word "Ultra Budget" and quite a lot of "too much effort" and so on. So you wanna have a tank tat fits these characteristics? Sure you can:
1. Use plastic plants - Save on lighting and fertilizer = Save $$$$
2. Put in Plastic fish - Save on fish food = Save $$$$
All the above no algae problem = Zero effort.

What say you all?

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## Fahmy

> I read the word "Ultra Budget" and quite a lot of "too much effort" and so on. So you wanna have a tank tat fits these characteristics? Sure you can:
> 1. Use plastic plants - Save on lighting and fertilizer = Save $$$$
> 2. Put in Plastic fish - Save on fish food = Save $$$$
> All the above no algae problem = Zero effort.
> 
> What say you all?


I doubt so bro. Later got mosquitoes, get dengue, go hospital. So still high bill. This thread interesting though.

It can only be done for very small tanks is it? I was just wondering whether its possible, say a 4 feet tank, to go with such low maintenance? I'd say only a huge amount of planning can pull this off. 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

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## horst

Possible. But you must start step by step and unfortunately cannot avoid "effort". Start with fast growing plants, like stem plants in large numbers Filling almost 70-80% of tank. Then when all is growing well introduce slow growing plants like anubias, javas, fern, mosses etc. This way, fast growing plants out compete algae for food. Fish is optional. No fish is better. Stem plants will naturally provide low light at the bottom conducive for slow growing plants. Notice from other forum posts, ppl suffering from algae all start with slow growing plants and lots of fishes. When your slow growing plants have grown alot more, you can slow start cutting away the stem plants. But very sayang because by now your tank looks very good.

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## Fahmy

I see.. which means I'll need a high AMOUNT of lights?

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## horst

In the beginning only. When your slow growing plants begin to dominate, you can cut back lighting. You see, high light without fast growing plants only encourage algae. Slow growing plant cannot absorb all nutrients leading to algae growth. My experience: dosing seachem iron / flourish in the beginning with high light slow growing plants = hair algae, brown algae

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## felix_fx2

> I read the word "Ultra Budget" and quite a lot of "too much effort" and so on. So you wanna have a tank tat fits these characteristics? Sure you can:
> 1. Use plastic plants - Save on lighting and fertilizer = Save $$$$
> 2. Put in Plastic fish - Save on fish food = Save $$$$
> All the above no algae problem = Zero effort.
> 
> What say you all?


Plastic plans and fish does not mean necessarily no algae. Algae are all around, but as the ones we see but rather as spores.
Given condition, they will grow and flourish.

btw, plastic plants + Plastic fish = don't waste time. you still refer that as hobby?  :Razz:

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## felix_fx2

> I read the word "Ultra Budget" and quite a lot of "too much effort" and so on. So you wanna have a tank tat fits these characteristics? Sure you can:
> 1. Use plastic plants - Save on lighting and fertilizer = Save $$$$
> 2. Put in Plastic fish - Save on fish food = Save $$$$
> All the above no algae problem = Zero effort.
> 
> What say you all?


Plastic plans and fish does not mean necessarily no algae. Algae are all around, but as the ones we see but rather as spores.
Given condition, they will grow and flourish.

btw, plastic plants + Plastic fish = don't waste time. you still refer that as hobby?  :Razz:

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## Fahmy

> btw, plastic plants + Plastic fish = don't waste time. you still refer that as hobby?


Probably called a plastiquarium. Or plasticscape. 



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## Shadow

why not just use screen saver  :Laughing:

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## eviltrain

> why not just use screen saver


haha this will confirm save alot of trouble!

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

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