# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna >  Sunfish

## RonWill

Hi Joseph & Rahul,
I think Wright's all excited about his trip and probably overlooked that Rahul is not picking up the sunfishes in SG, definitely not a stone's throw away from LA, and these buggers are with me now.

The *Elassoma evergladei (Everglades Pygmy Sunfish)* are fine. I took quick shots after acclimatizing them to my water and the pair(?), although small, are already snacking on my Cherry shrimplets! (don't worry, these are intended to be part of the food chain).

 _Elassoma evergladei_??

  
Dim hideaway. Perfect for the shy and hiding male

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The *Enneacanthus gloriosus (Blue Spotted Sunfish)* didn't start off as well. One of them was trapped in the folds of the plastic bag and I failed to revive it... didn't make it <sorry>  :Opps: 

 Smaller specimen TKO'ed.

The other survivor is now in it's own tank with Crystal Red shrimps, looking contented albeit for a mate (I'm hoping these fellas won't grow too big)
  

It's my first time with this type of fish and will need to read up some. Any experience shared will make for a shorter learning curve and thanks to Jian Yang for his links;
_Elassoma evergladei_ - Everglades Pygmy Sunfish
_Enneacanthus gloriosus_ - Blue Spotted Sunfish

Ooh and do correct me if I've confused the names.

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## nonamethefish

I believe it was Rahul's intention for these to get established in SG and then he could come by later some time.

Sorry to here about the smaller gloriosus! I suppose if anyone every is leaving from the US sometime soon we could send some more in. I just have to hope that pair obliges me with babies again. Treat him/her sort of like a coldwater cichlid and you will be fine, they are tough fish. Probably want to watch the heat though. If it is a male before long it will start developing lots of blue spots. They get pretty big. I think he will eat the shrimp when he gets older, I feed the adults mainly red wiggler worms, chopped usually but they can take bait sized ones. 

Male



The Elassoma tank looks great! They love hiding amongst fine leaved plants like Najas. The fry(very tiny) are either cannabalistic or otherwise just starve each other out so you usually can't raise many in a small tank. Btw, those fish are quite young and that is not maximum size or color. The male will grow to be a impressive fish(I think mine passed the 1 inch mark)...jet black with irridescent sparkles(better than the photos in the link posted). If you have access to a chiller you might want to play with that, but they seem to pretty much breed themselves. Just start adding in BBS when you see the male courting the female. I think theirs a chance the cherry shrimp might become a permanent food supply but daphnia, brine shrimp of all sizes, and blackworms are taken eagerly. When you get young I'd give them BBS daily. Should be pretty easy, but in the top photo the male is on the right. Outside of breeding condition, they have darker fins, more "sparkles" on their sides, and longer fins, particularly the pelvic fins.

HTH

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## retro_gk

The _Elassoma_ should feel right at home in that tank, Ron. Hope they do well for you. Bummer about the _Enneacanthus_. I guess you can fatten up the survivor and give him to Choy to play with :P

Did the _Pachypanchax_ make it over safely?

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## hwchoy

> I guess you can fatten up the survivor and give him to Choy to play with :P


you make it sound so kinky 

are they jumpers? I am afraid to take any fishes that will hide or jump before I could get any good shots! 
I can't take much more of Ronnie's ponytail lashing.  :Wink:

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## stormhawk

That correct Ron. The first pair are the Elassoma, and the other pair are the Enneacanthus.

One problem, the Elassoma might be another species, and maybe not the evergladei. There's a few more Elassoma species:

_Elassoma alabamae
Elassoma boelhkei
Elassoma evergladei
Elassoma okatie
Elassoma okefenokee
Elassoma zonatum_

You can probably rule zonatum out, but okefenokee does look like evergladei.  :Laughing: 

I think Wright didn't bring any _Pachypanchax_ .sp "Betsiboka" with him this time round. If he did, we'd have seen them in the pics of the gathering. :P

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## nonamethefish

They are evergladei, at least according to range. They were collected near Myakka State Park in a ditch(the county does not come to me). I actually have a map that estimates approximately where they were caught. Okefenokee I believe have blue margins on the fins which these evergladei lack.

Hwchoy: I've never seen them jump, and have kept them in places like open buckets that gave them more than ample opportunity to jump out. They are pretty shy though, so it could be a challenge to get good shots. Food helps alot though.

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## stormhawk

Thanks for the confirmation Joseph. I forgot that you caught these and sent them to Wright before he left. 

Have you bred them before? I think they're probably similar in habits to the Scarlet Badis, _Dario dario_.

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## RonWill

Joseph,
Judging from the size of the _Enneacanthus_, I doubt it'd stick around with me for very long (it's like a good 4inches!!) but it will fatten up before heading for Choy's pond!

From your _Elassoma_ description and that of *Aquarticles.com* (it's you, isn't it??), I think both Jian Yang and myself sensed the same, that these were like _Dario dario_/Scarlet Badis. In that case, I already know what I'm in for  :Shocked:  

To draw them out, I've gotten a small group of _Paedocypris progenetica_ and adding them later when I return home. Will update how these two species cohabitate.

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## retro_gk

> I think Wright didn't bring any _Pachypanchax_ .sp "Betsiboka" with him this time round. If he did, we'd have seen them in the pics of the gathering. :P


 :Sad:

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## nonamethefish

Jianyang: I didn't catch these, but someone else did, these two are offspring of the original fish..I think they are F3(wrong side of the country to find them myself).

Ron: Yep, that was a summing up of my experiences. I doubt they are as hard as badis though...and I think Badis show parental care which I have not observed in these. Actually, I've never seen any eggs from them either, but it appears they are deposited in the plants like killies. It will be interesting to see how the two species coinhabit and whether you get fry from both.

On the Ennecanthus, that male is pretty old, so it will take a while to get to that size. They first spawned in a 10 gallon and I guess they were around 3.5 then.

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## stormhawk

Good luck Ron, seems you have your work cut out for you. Tiny fry.. again!  :Laughing:  

Joseph, did you happen to get these off Aquabid? I've seen some fellas offer these and the okefenokee on Aquabid before. It's a pity we don't see these little guys more often here in this region. They seem to be a wonderful bunch of tiny fishes to keep and breed.

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## RonWill

Joseph, I've spawned the Darios a while back and no, they have no sense of parental care. It wasn't fun raising the fry either; tiny slivers taking ages to grow out and don't take well to prepared foods. I had about 300 of these, in various stages of maturity and had to clear all of them from a 4ft tank. Recall Rashid oggling at some well-conditioned females that looked like they swallowed a ping-pong ball!

The _Elassoma_ is enjoying their tubifex breakfast, even though it has to struggle to get just one worm into their gut! In contrast, the bee shrimp I introduced, together with the _Paedocypris progenetica_, is bigger. Interesting mix, I think.

Incidentally, the male has colored beautifully and in the dim setting, his sparkles are quite a sight!

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## nonamethefish

Jianyang: Nope. They were offered on a forum and I managed to work out a trade with the seller. I would love to give okefenokee a shot. 

How long is forever to grow out? With Elassoma, you might as well forget about prepared foods. I have not tried, but I'm betting prepared food would be worthless as the fry are very much visual hunters and stalk and attack the baby brine shrimp. They don't eat much, so feeding once a day works. They did get to the size of being able to take small blackworms and whatnot in a few months though. Since I left them with the adults and kept the tank dirty with lots of plants I found them pretty easy to raise. The parents tend to produce the fry in batches of 20(which, in my 2 gallon tanks, would dwindle to about a dozen by the time they were sexable). Once the fry are looking like mini adults if you want more fry it seems necessary to remove them...either they cannabalize or their presence and overcrowding stops spawning activity of the adults(I think it is more of the latter).

Since you are in Sg and it stays warm, after hatching the brine shrimp...try getting a 5 gallon bucket and dumping the leftover brinewater in there. This works for me to raise enough brineshrimp to treat my fish occasionally, and the Elassoma will go nuts for them. I think their favorite food is mosquito larvae...but I doubt you guys can do that without getting in trouble with neighbors. Good to hear the male is now coloring up!

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## RonWill

Joseph,
What you said about _Elassoma_ fry applies to Scarlet Badis. They rather chase down jerking daphnia and yes, as fry, they are not competitive eaters. Also, no mozzies please. I've enough trouble with the estate management and don't really need them to clamp down on me.

Anyway, here's the camera-shy couple. Best shot of the female all morning. She darts for cover everytime I try to focus on her but at least she's looking plumb. 
 

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A more confident _gloriosus_ after a tubbie meal. However, I suspect he's been snacking on my CRS shrimplets  :Evil:  

Choy, when do you want to collect and shoot more pics? [Rahul, we were thinking alike  :Wink:  ]

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Some pics of the _Paedocypris progenetica_, companions to the _Elassoma_ and according to the *Natural History Museum*, it's said to be the "world's smallest vertebrate or backboned animal". These are supposed to be adults already and yet, much smaller than the Cherry shrimp in the background.

If you can see their tummies, it's pink from a good meal of freeze-dried decapped BS eggs but still, I won't enjoy raising their even-tinier fry!  :Shocked:  Forgive the incorrect colors since the water is very tannic and I don't have time to fiddle with Photoshop.

  

All clickable pics. Enjoy!

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## whuntley

Pachypanchax? 

Oh, FOO! 

I thought they were for the ESP Special Initiative and the KCC maintenance program. I completely forgot they were for SG!  :Opps:  

My memory is still my second-shortest thing. [I need to get a better PDA and take more notes. My old Palm III is so clunky I hardly ever use it any more.  :Rolling Eyes:  ] 

My sincere apologies to all concerned. As soon as I get some mops in with them and can collect enough eggs in a short-enough time, I'll send some eggs to SG. I can hand-carry to LA or SF, so they don't face my freezing weather. 

I should try for both the "Betsiboka" and _sakaramyi_. No? 

Wright 

PS. Still suffering considerable jet lag, or, to use the proper scientific description, my biorhythms are still discombobulated.  :Very Happy:  Longer note in the trip thread when I have recovered a bit more.

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## RonWill

> I should try for both the "Betsiboka" and _sakaramyi_. No?


 Oooo.... pwweety! The _sakaramyi_ is a real looker! Quick go get that mop!  :Laughing:  

BTW, what is "FOO"? Not adult-theme, I hope  :Rolling Eyes:

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## whuntley

OK Ronnie,

I'll get to work on both. The "Betsiboka" looked starved, after my trip, so it will take a bit of conditioning to get eggs, I suspect. The others are skinny, too.

"FOO" is a generic word when you DON'T want to swear. Frequently used by programmers as a generic null device, as in *.foo , or FOO.TXT.

Wright

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## nonamethefish

Good luck trying to get a photo Ron. I've spent hours and they are very camera shy. They will be out and about and even looking at you for food but the minute the camera comes out they will go and hide. 

Those Paedocypris look pretty cool...wonder if we will ever have them in the US.

You guys want a challenge? This is one of the best photos I've gotten of a male Elassoma evergladei. Mind you this is a small one(smaller than Rons) so he was cooperative somewhat. The big one would never let me photograph him which is sad as he was gorgeous.

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## retro_gk

No worries, Wright. The folks in SG will just have to wait a bit longer :P

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## hwchoy

> Choy, when do you want to collect and shoot more pics? [Rahul, we were thinking alike  ]


some how I have not been receiving post notices from killies.com
well I am now sitting at T2 waiting for my flight to BKK. Hopefully I get some time to  at what's on sale at Jatujak.

As for the fish models, now that the Great Hall no longer opens late, how do you want to hand over the cutie? I will be back by Wednesday.

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## retro_gk

FWIW, _Pachypanchax_ "Betsiboka" is now _P. arnoulti_.

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## stormhawk

Rahul, minor error there, but it's now called _Pachypanchax arnoulti_, not _arnaulti_. Referred to the original description by Loiselle in his revision of the Malagasy Pachypanchax. Oddly I don't see any _playfairii_ in that revision. Is it not found on Madagascar as well  :Question:

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## retro_gk

Thanks for the correction, JY.

_P. playfairii_ is from the Seychelles.

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## stormhawk

Hi Rahul,

Yes I just checked on the playfairii before I saw your reply. Thanks though. Of the new species, I think Pachypanchax patriciae is the most beautiful.

Anyway, we've gone off-topic already. Back to the sunnies, I'm hoping that Ron gets successful with the little Elassoma in his care.

Ron,

Another breeding article regarding the Elassoma evergladei:

http://articles.gpasi.org/elassoma_evergladei.html

Written by Sallie Boggs and provided by the GPASI website.

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## ruyle

Joseph, I took the liberty in adjusting your photo abit:



Hope you don't mind...  :Surprised:

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## RonWill

> Another breeding article regarding the Elassoma evergladei


 Yes, I read it during earlier search for more info and it was this paragraph that prompt me to scarlet badis fry raising...

"_ All of this prespawning ritual went on for the months of March, April, May, and June. Although I never saw an actual spawning, I did see small numbers of larval fish about 1 mm long, hanging from tank walls and furnishings. These took several days to become free swimming. When they did, they disappeared among the floating plants and swam in rapid dashes followed by sitting motionless. The young were very shy and were all but invisible. Some survived and grew up in the tank. Others were fished out, and fed on sponge grunge and green water. Later, they ate live baby brine shrimp. They grew slowly, but seemed hardy. All fry were colored similarly to the female._"

BTW, Bill, the edit version looks good but nothing like a young mature male. It's really something and better if they can keep still for a portrait.

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## nonamethefish

Hmm...so scarlet badis are basically tropical elassoma? If they are as easy to raise as elassoma, maybe I should give them a shot. 

Ruyle: What tools did you use on that? It looks good, but as Ron hints at does have a bit of an altered look to it.

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## stormhawk

Looks like Bill just cropped the image, resized it a little, and increased the brightness.  :Very Happy:  

Ron, sounds like Dario alright. Since you already have experience at raising those teeeny weeeeny Dario fry, these should probably do well for you. Hope you don't go bonkers trying to spot them in the tank..  :Laughing: 

Joseph, yup you can say that the Dario are like the tropical counterparts of the Elassoma species. They're more or less of the same size when adult, produce tiny fry and are just as skittish. But I love Dario.. alot. They'll stay still for nice pictures.. like these that I took some time ago.







They're not that amazing in quality, but they're good enough for me. Right now I feel like buying some Darios since I don't have any Elassoma... yet. Waiting for good news from Mr Ronnie here.  ::smt003:

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## RonWill

Folks,
I hate to spill the beans but some of my tanks took another hit-and-run episode over Christmas day, lost a good number of fishes and had to clean up the aftermath.

All my _Paedocypris_ are gone. Ditto for the male _Elassoma_. Same goes for my breeding pairs of _striatums_ and _Microrasbora_ sp. Galaxy.

Failed attempts on my _Betta albimarginata_ and but lost the _B. Pallifina_ pair anyway (cover out of place)

There's a surveillance camera mounted near the setups and when I'm feeling less sore, I'll run through the HD recording. If it's the same sucker that went for my _Simp magificus_ last Christmas, he'll be in crutches soon enough!!  :Twisted Evil:

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## retro_gk

Someone _stole_ your fish??  :Confused:

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## stormhawk

Hmm.. the neighbour at work again?  :Shocked:

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## RonWill

> Hmm.. the neighbour at work again?


Folks,
I don't have the heart to scan through the surveillance HDD, not when it happens on Christmas Day, nor do I feel like breaking anyone's legs.

Live and let live but yes, Rahul, stolen. I can't remember how many times I've given away killies to those truly keen. Sad to think that *that* person could have been a killie-keeper instead of a thief.

Joseph & Rahul, sorry for blowing any chances of propagating the sunfishes locally.

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## hwchoy

I tell you what, throwaway your CCTV and put a sign instead:

" Please note that this place is NOT under surveillance of any sort. If you would like any of the plants and fishes here, please contact Ronnie the Man at 9xx9x55x "

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## retro_gk

No worries, Ronnie. There's always next time.  :Smile:

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## stormhawk

To be frank Ronnie, I feel you should report the guilty chap to the police. The fishes cost time, and money, plus the loss of the pallifina pair is definitely a letdown. They're worth a fair bit and since he attempted to snag the albi pair too, it probably shows that he knows the value of these fishes.

If he happens to be the SAME idiot who took your magnificus the other time round, just haul his *** to the police station and then charge him with theft. I suppose time in lockup would do him some good to wake up his idea. He shouldn't be given a second chance at all.  :Confused:

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## whuntley

I respectfully agree with Jianyang.

It is quite a bit of bother for you to get involved with the authorities, on this, but you do the thief no favors by letting him get away with it.

What will his next affront to society be? Will you bear some responsibility for it? Nail him, if you can. At least try to stop it at the petty theft level.

Accept the fact that every good deed receives its just punishment.  :Laughing:  

Wright

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## RonWill

When I was lying on my chest, with a back-full of needles***, I was hesitant to answer the physician why my body was a wreck. He diagnosed multiple, untreated internal injuries that's causing the chronic back and shoulder pains. 

I asked myself, "should I tell him of my foolish, reckless days? Should I tell him how many times I fell and how I ended up like this?" All things considered, perhaps this really wasn't too bad after all. 

As a young fellow, I have little regards for convention, the 'norm' and what people call 'The Law' but without those who have shown compassion, forgiveness and the leeway to change, I could have ended up far worse. Unimaginable, if those bent on persecution had their ways.

Point is, despite what some feel, good decision can only come from having made many bad ones (I know I did). It's how some of us learn, with varying degree of consequences and the manner in which we pick ourselves up. 

I feel it does no good pursuing what's done and think it's wise to erase the HDD, so let's not quibble over that. Our SG boys will surely get their second chances with the sunfishes someday, somehow.




> Accept the fact that every good deed receives its just punishment.


 Heh, in that case, I guess I'll have to wait for judgment day to receive my sentence  :Rolling Eyes: 

[*** No, it wasn't a sacrificial ritual but acupuncture treatment common in TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine). The process doesn't hurt a great deal but I felt like a porcupine's cousin. Lower back pains have subsided somewhat but it's gonna be a month-long treatment, at least. 

There are also alot of scrapes and circular-marks on my back, left behind by vacuum-cups, said to 'draw out the wind' in my body. The Malays call it "buang angin", I think. The English-speaking will refer it as rheumatism (or rheumatoid arthritis??)]

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## whuntley

Ron,

You will be amused to learn that the only other killifish breeder in Bishop is our local acupuncturist, Howard Wu.

Wright

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## nonamethefish

Wow...sorry to hear that Ron! I don't think it is too much though to simply track him down and ask he return the fishes. But you are free to do as you feel is best.

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## nonamethefish

To dig this topic back up...if anyone in the states is interested in gloriosus...I have an abundance of them now I need to move ASAP.

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## imported_lampeye

> To draw them out, I've gotten a small group of _Paedocypris progenetica_



Lucky - I don't think they've made it to the States yet.

Funny how you're comparing the _Elassoma_ to _Dario_ - when the _Dario_ breeding reports started coming in, I remember thinking "Huh. They sound like an Indian pygmy sunfish.

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