# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Invertebrates >  My Benibachi shrimp

## benibachi-th

Thank you

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## newlife

Beautiful....especially the 1st sexy MaMa....
Nice photography skill too...
How long have you been keeping them???

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## chris168

Sexy and Pretty. Very solid Benibachi you have.

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## avex30

Benibachi prl or crs hahahaha very swee leh hmmm must go GC see again hahaha

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## rcw

Nice! Are those from GC?

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## benibachi-th

> Beautiful....especially the 1st sexy MaMa....
> Nice photography skill too...
> How long have you been keeping them???


Thank you 
I keep red bee about 5 year




> Sexy and Pretty. Very solid Benibachi you have.


 Thank you
It is hi grade Benibachi shrimp




> Benibachi prl or crs hahahaha very swee leh hmmm must go GC see again hahaha


Benibachi is PRL  :Grin: 




> Nice! Are those from GC?


Thank you

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## ZackZhou

He is from Thailand, how to get from Gc? Lol. Nice shrimp. See, different line also got grade one what.


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## rcw

oh my bad.Thailand breed also swee.

sent from iphone killer

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## rolex

Sawadee khrap
thanks for sharing, very nice and solid colour

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## ZackZhou

> oh my bad.Thailand breed also swee.
> 
> sent from iphone killer


Haha, Thailand(aquamart) is the sole distributor for benibachi in Asia.  :Very Happy: 


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## rcw

> Haha, Thailand(aquamart) is the sole distributor for benibachi in Asia. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


so gc benibachi is from japan or thailand?

sent from iphone killer

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## ZackZhou

> so gc benibachi is from japan or thailand?
> 
> sent from iphone killer


What do you think?  :Very Happy: 


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## rcw

> What do you think? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ok,I understand.anyway thread starter has great quality shrimps.thick whites.

sent from iphone killer

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## newlife

> He is from Thailand, how to get from Gc? Lol. Nice shrimp. See, different line also got grade one what.


PRL Grading is by Coloration instead of Pattern...

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## ZackZhou

> PRL Grading is by Coloration instead of Pattern...


No Peter, what I meant is that now people won't have a mindset that benibachi prl not so nice as Gc only brought in lower grade ones.. Haha 


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## avex30

> He is from Thailand, how to get from Gc? Lol. Nice shrimp. See, different line also got grade one what.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What thailand also come in here to induce POISON hahahahaha Anyway thanks to Benibachi-th for sharing his poison

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## benibachi-th

all shrimp are come from japan .

the shrimp in picture is hi grade with certificate  :Grin:

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## avex30

> all shrimp are come from japan .
> 
> the shrimp in picture is hi grade with certificate


Nice with a cert hahaha

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## ZackZhou

Is it one cert with one prl? 
Like that I can sense that they are not cheap at all. Heeheehee


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## vynax

Great thread, thank TS for sharing. 

I heard from my Indo friend Thailand Benibachi is very cheap and grade is much better.

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## YiRiYu

> No Peter, what I meant is that now people won't have a mindset that benibachi prl not so nice as Gc only brought in lower grade ones.. Haha 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi Bro Zackzhou,

Can I ask if the thread Starter is the one who distribute or supply Benebachi PRL to GC and also the owner of Thai Benibachi? Thanks

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## benibachi-th

> Is it one cert with one prl? 
> Like that I can sense that they are not cheap at all. Heeheehee
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yes ,Hi-grade shrimp are not cheap  :Grin: 
it is one certificate for one hi grade shrimp 




> Great thread, thank TS for sharing. 
> 
> I heard from my Indo friend Thailand Benibachi is very cheap and grade is much better.


I think same price  :Roll Eyes:

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## rcw

> all shrimp are come from japan .
> 
> the shrimp in picture is hi grade with certificate


omg!you have got cert like arowana.but yours still got picture. we have a hobbyist can get prl from thailand.you can search for his thread.
quality also nice.maybe you might know him.I never got from him
just drool by looking at those pics.


sent from iphone killer

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## benibachi-th

> omg!you have got cert like arowana.but yours still got picture. we have a hobbyist can get prl from thailand.you can search for his thread.
> quality also nice.maybe you might know him.I never got from him
> just drool by looking at those pics.
> 
> 
> sent from iphone killer


yes Thailand have some good breeder but their shrimp may not original from japan .

for sg you can find benibachi shrimp at benibachi-sg.

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## cheetf

I am very curious. How do you prove that the shrimp that you have is the one in the picture? Unlike Arowana which have tags in them, many shrimp look the same. What is worse, shrimp can change appearance in poor water conditions.

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## alvinchan80

> omg!you have got cert like arowana.but yours still got picture. we have a hobbyist can get prl from thailand.you can search for his thread.
> quality also nice.maybe you might know him.I never got from him
> just drool by looking at those pics.
> 
> 
> sent from iphone killer


Is the hobbyist you saying that can get PRL from Thailand, Berber? The one who sold me those discolored 'so-called PRL' for those premium price and not be reliable or responsible?
I believe anyone can get from Thailand those PRL he is getting as long as they know who to look for.. And PRL is based a lot on trust and reliability of the seller.. Which I think if you are talking about the seller I mentioned, he has none...

By the way, Koew 'Benibachi-th'.. Fantastic looking Benibachi Hi-grade shrimps... Really enjoyed looking at the photos... Hope to see more photos of your Benibachi PRL...

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## rcw

> Is the hobbyist you saying that can get PRL from Thailand, Berber? The one who sold me those discolored 'so-called PRL' for those premium price and not be reliable or responsible?
> I believe anyone can get from Thailand those PRL he is getting as long as they know who to look for.. And PRL is based a lot on trust and reliability of the seller.. Which I think if you are talking about the seller I mentioned, he has none...
> 
> By the way, Koew 'Benibachi-th'.. Fantastic looking Benibachi Hi-grade shrimps... Really enjoyed looking at the photos... Hope to see more photos of your Benibachi PRL...


oh yes alvin,I rem his nick is berber.I did pm him for price before, got 2nd thoughts therefore never got from him.TS benibachi really nice,any pics of offsprings sir?

sent from iphone killer

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## andrewheng

Really solid colorations.
Thanks for sharing.

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## benibachi-th

> I am very curious. How do you prove that the shrimp that you have is the one in the picture? Unlike Arowana which have tags in them, many shrimp look the same. What is worse, shrimp can change appearance in poor water conditions.


the shrimp picture in certificate is all same :Embarassed:  haha


certificate made for guarantee that shrimp is from Benibachi japan .

you can see many fake shrimp around the world Hakata ,nishiki ,Ebiten ,MFF or Benibachi . you can call that name if it come from that farm . Thank you 

sorry for my bad English  :Roll Eyes:

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## ZackZhou

rephrase for him, imo i think he meant this

the shrimp picture in certificate is identical to the shrimp that i have in my tank right now. haha

certificate is made in order to guarantee that shrimp is from Benibachi japan farm itself .

you can see many fake shrimp around the world Hakata ,nishiki ,Ebiten ,MFF or Benibachi . you can only call that name if it come from that farm . Thank you

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## ZackZhou

but i think you cannot call them fake la. 
If like that say, Real shrimps are only those who went to the farm and collect themselves?

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## alvinchan80

> rephrase for him, imo i think he meant this
> 
> the shrimp picture in certificate is identical to the shrimp that i have in my tank right now. haha
> 
> certificate is made in order to guarantee that shrimp is from Benibachi japan farm itself .
> 
> you can see many fake shrimp around the world Hakata ,nishiki ,Ebiten ,MFF or Benibachi . you can only call that name if it come from that farm . Thank you


I thought he meant that the certificate has the same shrimp photo.. It's just to signify that the reseller is certified as Benibachi reseller...

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## ZackZhou

i dont think he is a reseller bah.. the serial number only accounts for one shrimp. the others withour cert and the offsprings are not benibachi, because according to benibachi-th's theory, the offsprings are not from the farm itself.

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## ZackZhou

what i meant is that with this cert alone does not justify him being a reseller. For benibachi resellers, you will have another cert with 'authorised reseller' on it. GC have it  :Very Happy:

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## YiRiYu

> Hi Bro Zackzhou,
> 
> Can I ask if the thread Starter is the one who distribute or supply Benebachi PRL to GC and also the owner of Thai Benibachi? Thanks


Hi Benibachi Th,

Since bro Zackzhou did not answer the question I asked..Can you please help to answer as I need to know before investing my money on Benibachi PRL...

Is Benibachi Thai the supplier of Benibachi PRL to GC as I am afraid as you mentioned there are fake shrimps around like HKT, Ebiten .....Thanks.

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## Jianyuan

I believe they get their benibachi stuff straight from Japan itself, the benibachi stores are just their distributing agent around the world.

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## rcw

for me actually when i buy is based on trust only from gc. cos you will get when u net.unlike bro Alvin's case.

sent from iphone killer

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## cheetf

> rephrase for him, imo i think he meant this
> 
> the shrimp picture in certificate is identical to the shrimp that i have in my tank right now. haha
> 
> certificate is made in order to guarantee that shrimp is from Benibachi japan farm itself .
> 
> you can see many fake shrimp around the world Hakata ,nishiki ,Ebiten ,MFF or Benibachi . you can only call that name if it come from that farm . Thank you


I don't think you need to rephrase for him. It sounds just fine maybe it's you who does not understand. I believe what it means what bro Alvin says.

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## vynax

> the shrimp picture in certificate is all same haha
> 
> 
> certificate made for guarantee that shrimp is from Benibachi japan .
> 
> you can see many fake shrimp around the world Hakata ,nishiki ,Ebiten ,MFF or Benibachi . you can call that name if it come from that farm . Thank you 
> 
> sorry for my bad English


Do you mean you have only 1 printed certificate for all your benibachi shrimps or you mean japan will issue you with every shrimp 1 certificate which you have bought from benibachi japan?

What if all your shrimps which you bought from benibachi japan die then you still use it on other shrimps which you still have?

Cause for arowana certificate and tag some will re-use it to tag to other arowana.

You can't anyhow say that Fake shrimp around the world like Hakata, Nishiki, Ebiten, MFF or Benibachi. 
Do you mean when someone buy from your shop, you will issue them certificate for every shrimp he/she has bought?
If you will be issuing the certificate then will it be Benibachi Japan or Benibachi Thailand?

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## benibachi-th

GC is Benibachi sg all of shrimp and product are come from japan 
you can checkl to benibachi-japan by email [email protected]

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## soonhong

Hi Benibachi Thai, if I tell u I bought some prl from Benibachi Japan and also other lineage from the shop in japan but I don't hav the certificate , will u call them fake shrimps as what u mentioned in your earlier post?As I believe maybe u won't hav certs for all your shrimps ..maybe just one piece that come with the certificate. What about those I bought from Gc without certificates..?

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## ZackZhou

> I don't think you need to rephrase for him. It sounds just fine maybe it's you who does not understand. I believe what it means what bro Alvin says.


so can you tell me what did you interpret from those words? i dont understand.

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## ZackZhou

> GC is Benibachi sg all of shrimp and product are come from japan 
> you can checkl to benibachi-japan by email [email protected]


Straight from Japan?

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## ZackZhou

> I don't think you need to rephrase for him. It sounds just fine maybe it's you who does not understand. I believe what it means what bro Alvin says.


After reading thus thread again, I finally understand what you and Alvin are trying to say, you were saying it's the same exact photo in all certificate that benibachi used. 

Now I would like to ask, then what is the cert for if it does not have a picture of the exact shrimp that you've bought? 


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## cheetf

> so can you tell me what did you interpret from those words? i dont understand.


The picture is of the same shrimp, not every shrimp you buy they take one picture. The cert only certifies that the shrimp come from beni japan.

Any shrimp that comes from that farm can be called by it's name but it is not from Japan and he considers them fakes.




> After reading thus thread again, I finally understand what you and Alvin are trying to say, you were saying it's the same exact photo in all certificate that benibachi used. 
> 
> Now I would like to ask, then what is the cert for if it does not have a picture of the exact shrimp that you've bought?


Glad that you finally got it. We are also asking what is the point?

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## ZackZhou

> Hi Benibachi Th,
> 
> Since bro Zackzhou did not answer the question I asked..Can you please help to answer as I need to know before investing my money on Benibachi PRL...
> 
> Is Benibachi Thai the supplier of Benibachi PRL to GC as I am afraid as you mentioned there are fake shrimps around like HKT, Ebiten .....Thanks.


Brother:

Comes to whether to invest or not in hi-priced shrimps, it is best that you find out on your own. Some Words passed on by others even me can sometimes be false or interpreted. 


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## cheetf

Got a quick question. If I bought benibachi shrimp and bred them. Can I tell my friends that the offsprings are beni shrimps since they don't have any certificates?

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## avex30

Benibachi issue this cert misleading to buyer cause cert only issue to the reseller like gc if I buy from gc I can't get cert I got no way to prove to people the shrimps I breed out can be consider as benibachi prl cause of this post people will start to wonder. Beside the cert even with individual pic the shrimp will get old n lose colour eventually so does that mean the cert need to keep updating the pic?

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## eviltrain

Err. Does it means if right after i buy the benibanchi prl from gc, will no longer call benibanchi prl once i step out of the shop?

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## vynax

> Brother:
> 
> Comes to whether to invest or not in hi-priced shrimps, it is best that you find out on your own. Some Words passed on by others even me can sometimes be false or interpreted. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


bro, are you clone of Benibachi TH? why are you answering a question directed to him. How do you expect me to find out ourselves if Benibachi Thailand avoid our questions?

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## ZackZhou

Zzz.. I was addressing to yiruyu. His 1st question was addressed to me. So I'm replying him, just that I can't quote his reply as I'm using iPhone to reply. 

Please do not make assumptions to whoever is whoever's clone. I've been actively participating in this forum for the pass 8 months. And I do not have a single hi-end shrimp at home. Please think before you post. 


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## ZackZhou

> bro, are you clone of Benibachi TH? why are you answering a question directed to him. How do you expect me to find out ourselves if Benibachi Thailand avoid our questions?


And please vynax, STOP Making useless comments and STOP questioning people. I do not want to doubt if you are using a second account to shoot bullets in AQ.

Why am I saying that? please check his profile. Joined date : march 2010 with 26 posts, and almost all his replies in aq was to question/start fire.


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## Sulawesi

> And please vynax, STOP Making useless comments and STOP questioning people. I do not want to doubt if you are using a second account to shoot bullets in AQ.
> 
> Why am I saying that? please check his profile. Joined date : march 2010 with 26 posts, and almost all his replies in aq was to question/start fire.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



ZZ, I understand you have very nice HKT prl with very cheap price.
But just a question.
What are you saying other comments are useless and asking people to stop giving questions?
I feel that this forum is for people like me who are new and want to learn.
Of course all are free to ask and comment your thoughts.
What the point of having a forum where nobody can ask question?
Or do everyone have to ask question to your favor then he will not be consider as a second account to shoot bullets?

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## benibachi-th

Thank you for ever question

Certificate made for only hi grade shrimp .it is guarantee that shrimp is come from benibachi Japan . ,GC have mid to low grade shrimp so GC will not have a certificate like this thread .

Fake shrimp ,I mean you need to get that shimp fom that farm or dealer .after you breed it ,it should be your shrimp . For example you get benibachi shrimp 5 pcs after 3 month yougett 60 offspring .the first 5 pcs still benibachi shrimp but 60 offspring should be your shrimp with benibachi blood . :Well done:

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## vynax

> And please vynax, STOP Making useless comments and STOP questioning people. I do not want to doubt if you are using a second account to shoot bullets in AQ.
> 
> Why am I saying that? please check his profile. Joined date : march 2010 with 26 posts, and almost all his replies in aq was to question/start fire
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i have no doubt you are Benibachi th spokesman. You even rephrase for him when you didn't even understand what the rest are talking. 

As for me, i ask smart questions better then empty vessel spokesman

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## ZackZhou

> ZZ, I understand you have very nice HKT prl with very cheap price.
> But just a question.
> What are you saying other comments are useless and asking people to stop giving questions?
> I feel that this forum is for people like me who are new and want to learn.
> Of course all are free to ask and comment your thoughts.
> What the point of having a forum where nobody can ask question?
> Or do everyone have to ask question to your favor then he will not be consider as a second account to shoot bullets?


Asking questions perfectly fine, please don't come in shoot other ppl can Liao. And please don't anyhow assume anything: 


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## ZackZhou

> i have no doubt you are Benibachi th spokesman. You even rephrase for him when you didn't even understand what the rest are talking. 
> 
> As for me, i ask smart questions better then empty vessel spokesman


Er... Didn't I said "IMO"? Oh if you don't understand it means in my opinion. 
Oh, you ask smart questions? Erm.. Judging by your previous posts, I assume that your definition of "smart" is different from the common folks.
Speaking of smartness, why would I be a benibachi spokesperson when I keep offsprings from hakata only? 





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## ZackZhou

> ZZ, I understand you have very nice HKT prl with very cheap price.
> But just a question.
> What are you saying other comments are useless and asking people to stop giving questions?
> I feel that this forum is for people like me who are new and want to learn.
> Of course all are free to ask and comment your thoughts.
> What the point of having a forum where nobody can ask question?
> Or do everyone have to ask question to your favor then he will not be consider as a second account to shoot bullets?


The whole issue here is not about can ask question or not.. I said stop questioning people. Like asking me if I'm a clone for benibachi? I mean what will you learn from this question? 


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## YiRiYu

> Straight from Japan?





> GC is Benibachi sg all of shrimp and product are come from japan 
> you can checkl to benibachi-japan by email [email protected]


Benibachi-th,

Can I asked if GC shrimps from Thailand or directly from Japan? Thanks.

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## ZackZhou

Need to clarify a few things, 
1. Forums are for people to ask questions of course. I did not mean to ask people stop asking questions at all, if I sounded I was to anyone, I sincerely apologize.
2. I'm not a spokesperson for benibachi, the post which I rephrase for benibachi-th where I offended anyone in any case, I apologize here as well.
3. I replied in this thread for the sole purpose of complimenting the nice shrimps and question the TS about his logic of "real" and "fake" prls available in the market now.
4. To avoid further confusion, this will be my last post in this thread.  :Very Happy:  
Have fun breeding! Heheehee


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## binniez

To be honest, I have been to Benibachi Bangkok to bought the so called "PRL" & "PBL" back before. Horrors of horrors can only explain to all of you what happened to my shrimps. As I was at the shop itself picking out shrimps, I was a little surprised to find out that regardless of whether i picked berried ones or non berried ones, they came at the same price. Thus, I went ahead picking and netting to my hearts content. Was recommended by owner to buy the more expensive grades as they came along with a authenticity cert which certified them a PRL shrimp from Benibachi Japan. 

However, at the price that i was netting them at, I was already expecting that they were PRL and PBL. I also clarified with the owner to see if those were authentic benibachi lines and he assured me that there were indeed "PRL & PBL" although they did not come with the certificate. They were only " lower grade PRL and PBL" that i was purchasing. When i reached Singapore, i acclimatized them and they were swimming happily in my tank. Within a week, 2 of the berried PBL released their shrimplets. I was horrified and terrified! There were golden offsprings! And the ratio of offsprings were not the rare 1 or 2 that came out. It was almost 8-10 pcs that came out of a batch of 21 pieces of shrimplets! I was so disgusted with it that i threw the entire batch of so called "PBL" to mix with the rest of my BDS. 

The PRL however did not come out with any golden offsprings. But just to play safe, I mixed them with my crs instead. Those were a ripoff! A worse possible nightmare come true. One thing to note were price range of the PBL at the shop had only 3 price range categories where as the PRL had btw 5-6 price range categories. I am here to advise you guys to open your eyes wide open when you are purchasing these so called lineage. Do not be decieved by what others say. Yeah. I was a fool maybe. With those PRL and PBL that i bought, I could have bought a few pcs of his "Hi-Quality PRL" that came along with the cert. Never ever will I get shrimps from Benibachi again. In any other case, If you head down to GC to see the quality of the PRL, you can also often notice that the quality of the PRL are not that fantastic either. The only Benibachi line that were true came from a Hong Kong breeder who is a friend. Would recommend that if you intend to buy PRL or PBL, please only buy from established sources or trustworthy sources or you will find yourself paying for rubbish!

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## newlife

Wow...seems like fire shooting....
Must be the Weather that is making people "HOT" with so much debates going on...
It's all about how "PURE" this "RED LINE" can be...

Many might be using this "PURE RED LINE" to hoot some $$$ out of it....which have caused so much troubles in this small hobby.

Robin...sad to hear your stuck up experience......
From my understanding from Silane....there is not where to get "REAL" and "NOT FAKE" for the 100% Purity other then Japan....
I myself have got some Crismon PRL & PBL from my previous Taiwan trip...and how "PURE" it is...I myself don't know...But for the price i paid for...I did not put 100% hopes that it is 100% pure. 
To me, as long as the shrimp looks nice...I'm happy and contented...how pure it is really matters??? It will only matters when a person paid high price for it yet getting a "NOT Pure" PRL.

Even for the my HKT...which was generously sold to me by Silane...at a real attractive price...Till now, then I know those are HKT Culls. But what else can I ask for with the price I paid for it??? If you were to ask me..."Are those Culls a beauty?"....I would say "YES"!

So...maybe those Shrimps debates & arguments...Pin Pointing...etc etc...can really put to stop & rest. Make this hobby a Fun one. Whatever past...has already past and gone away....

Cheers...

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## benibachi-th

> Benibachi-th,
> 
> Can I asked if GC shrimps from Thailand or directly from Japan? Thanks.


Directly from Japan .Benibachi-jp come to Thailand ever month ,when GC order shimp will stay at Thailand 1 night and send to GC .

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## veggie

> GC is Benibachi sg all of shrimp and product are come from japan 
> you can checkl to benibachi-japan by email [email protected]


Sorry but in this post u say all GC stuff come from Japan. Now you say it came to Thailand before reaching sg? Right now I doubt your word man!!! Please explain

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## benibachi-th

> Sorry but in this post u say all GC stuff come from Japan. Now you say it came to Thailand before reaching sg? Right now I doubt your word man!!! Please explain


 because I order the big order so benibachi jp come to Thailand first day and next day go to singapore .

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## avex30

> To be honest, I have been to Benibachi Bangkok to bought the so called "PRL" & "PBL" back before. Horrors of horrors can only explain to all of you what happened to my shrimps. As I was at the shop itself picking out shrimps, I was a little surprised to find out that regardless of whether i picked berried ones or non berried ones, they came at the same price. Thus, I went ahead picking and netting to my hearts content. Was recommended by owner to buy the more expensive grades as they came along with a authenticity cert which certified them a PRL shrimp from Benibachi Japan. 
> 
> However, at the price that i was netting them at, I was already expecting that they were PRL and PBL. I also clarified with the owner to see if those were authentic benibachi lines and he assured me that there were indeed "PRL & PBL" although they did not come with the certificate. They were only " lower grade PRL and PBL" that i was purchasing. When i reached Singapore, i acclimatized them and they were swimming happily in my tank. Within a week, 2 of the berried PBL released their shrimplets. I was horrified and terrified! There were golden offsprings! And the ratio of offsprings were not the rare 1 or 2 that came out. It was almost 8-10 pcs that came out of a batch of 21 pieces of shrimplets! I was so disgusted with it that i threw the entire batch of so called "PBL" to mix with the rest of my BDS. 
> 
> The PRL however did not come out with any golden offsprings. But just to play safe, I mixed them with my crs instead. Those were a ripoff! A worse possible nightmare come true. One thing to note were price range of the PBL at the shop had only 3 price range categories where as the PRL had btw 5-6 price range categories. I am here to advise you guys to open your eyes wide open when you are purchasing these so called lineage. Do not be decieved by what others say. Yeah. I was a fool maybe. With those PRL and PBL that i bought, I could have bought a few pcs of his "Hi-Quality PRL" that came along with the cert. Never ever will I get shrimps from Benibachi again. In any other case, If you head down to GC to see the quality of the PRL, you can also often notice that the quality of the PRL are not that fantastic either. The only Benibachi line that were true came from a Hong Kong breeder who is a friend. Would recommend that if you intend to buy PRL or PBL, please only buy from established sources or trustworthy sources or you will find yourself paying for rubbish!


Wow this is sad to read PBL with such gene i will bang walls too

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## benibachi-th

> To be honest, I have been to Benibachi Bangkok to bought the so called "PRL" & "PBL" back before. Horrors of horrors can only explain to all of you what happened to my shrimps. As I was at the shop itself picking out shrimps, I was a little surprised to find out that regardless of whether i picked berried ones or non berried ones, they came at the same price. Thus, I went ahead picking and netting to my hearts content. Was recommended by owner to buy the more expensive grades as they came along with a authenticity cert which certified them a PRL shrimp from Benibachi Japan. 
> 
> However, at the price that i was netting them at, I was already expecting that they were PRL and PBL. I also clarified with the owner to see if those were authentic benibachi lines and he assured me that there were indeed "PRL & PBL" although they did not come with the certificate. They were only " lower grade PRL and PBL" that i was purchasing. When i reached Singapore, i acclimatized them and they were swimming happily in my tank. Within a week, 2 of the berried PBL released their shrimplets. I was horrified and terrified! There were golden offsprings! And the ratio of offsprings were not the rare 1 or 2 that came out. It was almost 8-10 pcs that came out of a batch of 21 pieces of shrimplets! I was so disgusted with it that i threw the entire batch of so called "PBL" to mix with the rest of my BDS. 
> 
> The PRL however did not come out with any golden offsprings. But just to play safe, I mixed them with my crs instead. Those were a ripoff! A worse possible nightmare come true. One thing to note were price range of the PBL at the shop had only 3 price range categories where as the PRL had btw 5-6 price range categories. I am here to advise you guys to open your eyes wide open when you are purchasing these so called lineage. Do not be decieved by what others say. Yeah. I was a fool maybe. With those PRL and PBL that i bought, I could have bought a few pcs of his "Hi-Quality PRL" that came along with the cert. Never ever will I get shrimps from Benibachi again. In any other case, If you head down to GC to see the quality of the PRL, you can also often notice that the quality of the PRL are not that fantastic either. The only Benibachi line that were true came from a Hong Kong breeder who is a friend. Would recommend that if you intend to buy PRL or PBL, please only buy from established sources or trustworthy sources or you will find yourself paying for rubbish!


The trademark of Benebachi's shrimps are the brightly white with variety patterns 
which are different from other farms or breeders in Japan 
that exactly deep red but their white portion always mix with yellow or red.

Therefore, Many farms avoid breeding Mosura to avoid this case.

Your shrimps which brought from Thailand and found many Golden offsprings was my fault. 
Demand of Mosura in Thailand is very high, so I ordered all Mosura Black. 

Benibachi has never breed with Golden, 
If you give us chance and try breeding that Mosura with Hinomaru or Tiger, 
you will not find any Golden offspring. 

One more thing, 
Benebachi farm is located in Japan which they have more then 100,000 yards (more than 200 tanks), 
so it is impossible to breed in Hong Kong. 
(Pls find our Japan Benibachi farm through this link) 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCNTI...layer_embedded

----------


## veggie

I see. Cause you say GC stuff come direct from Japan. Ok thanks for the explanation

----------


## Yulbrainer

> i have no doubt you are Benibachi th spokesman. You even rephrase for him when you didn't even understand what the rest are talking. 
> 
> As for me, i ask smart questions better then empty vessel spokesman


Bro vynax, 

You might want to read this thread (again, if you had before)
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...nder_and_libel
 :Well done:

----------


## Yulbrainer

> because I order the big order so benibachi jp come to Thailand first day and next day go to singapore .


Hi benibachi-th,

Is that means that GC-Thailand is the "main distributor" for south east asia, and more consumer in Thailand?

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## soonhong

Hi Benibachi-th,

If the shrimp carries golden gene ..even breed with tiger or hino...will still give golden offsprings in subsequent generations .. Maybe not this generation of offsprings but few generations later.. Even tiger and hino may carry golden genes..As what you mentioned, if you are given chance to breed with tiger or hinomaru which does not make sense...Can we still consider the offsprings as shrimps with Benibachi bloodline even got golden offsprings or genes? Does the Mosura black come with any certificate and are they from Benibachi Japan ?

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## eviltrain

err.

for all newbie's reference, tiger = tigertooth and hinomura = no entry pattern on the PRL.

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## binniez

> Wow...seems like fire shooting....
> Must be the Weather that is making people "HOT" with so much debates going on...
> It's all about how "PURE" this "RED LINE" can be...
> 
> Many might be using this "PURE RED LINE" to hoot some $$$ out of it....which have caused so much troubles in this small hobby.
> 
> Robin...sad to hear your stuck up experience......
> From my understanding from Silane....there is not where to get "REAL" and "NOT FAKE" for the 100% Purity other then Japan....
> I myself have got some Crismon PRL & PBL from my previous Taiwan trip...and how "PURE" it is...I myself don't know...But for the price i paid for...I did not put 100% hopes that it is 100% pure. 
> ...


Bro Newlife, I am not shooting anyone here. In this case, I believe if you are being told that you are going to get PBL of course you would expect only PBL offsprings and nothing else. Its matching the expectation with the actual product. If you are going to tell me that I am paying 100 bucks for a BDS does it make sense? Furthermore, since now that he has admitted that these PBL were infact only BDS Mosura, don't you think that this is another case of cheating?

Quoted Benibachi - TH
"Your shrimps which brought from Thailand and found many Golden offsprings was my fault. 
Demand of Mosura in Thailand is very high, so I ordered all Mosura Black. 

Benibachi has never breed with Golden, 
If you give us chance and try breeding that Mosura with Hinomaru or Tiger, 
you will not find any Golden offspring. "

And these shrimps were berried in his tank. Offsprings came out to be golden. Don't think it's my fault. In any other case, nobody in their right mind would mix PBL with BDS to spoil the lineage. So these Mosura Black that he mentioned were not from benibachi? Then why were they placed along side by side with Benibachi PRL? And when I asked him, He assured me that they were Benibachi PBL. So now what is what?

Benibachi-TH, I mentioned I got my Benibachi from a Hong Kong breeder friend who was keeping them. He got them direct from Japan. I didn't mention in any part of my post that I got them from a BENIBACHI SHOP IN HONG KONG.

Lastly to Newlife, I am not too sure of your defination of culls. But what I have been getting from Silane is quality shrimps of course at prices that are matching. If you expect good stuff at cheap prices then I am afraid you are not going to get anything good. Thats period. In economics, superior goods of course cost more than inferior goods. U can't expect a Ipad 2 to cost lesser than an Ipad 1 right?

----------


## benibachi-th

> Bro Newlife, I am not shooting anyone here. In this case, I believe if you are being told that you are going to get PBL of course you would expect only PBL offsprings and nothing else. Its matching the expectation with the actual product. If you are going to tell me that I am paying 100 bucks for a BDS does it make sense? Furthermore, since now that he has admitted that these PBL were infact only BDS Mosura, don't you think that this is another case of cheating?
> 
> Quoted Benibachi - TH
> "Your shrimps which brought from Thailand and found many Golden offsprings was my fault. 
> Demand of Mosura in Thailand is very high, so I ordered all Mosura Black. 
> 
> Benibachi has never breed with Golden, 
> If you give us chance and try breeding that Mosura with Hinomaru or Tiger, 
> you will not find any Golden offspring. "
> ...


that mosura black is from benibachi japan and all benibachi shrimp in honkong shop also from japan by me

----------


## benibachi-th

> Hi Benibachi-th,
> 
> If the shrimp carries golden gene ..even breed with tiger or hino...will still give golden offsprings in subsequent generations .. Maybe not this generation of offsprings but few generations later.. Even tiger and hino may carry golden genes..As what you mentioned, if you are given chance to breed with tiger or hinomaru which does not make sense...Can we still consider the offsprings as shrimps with Benibachi bloodline even got golden offsprings or genes? Does the Mosura black come with any certificate and are they from Benibachi Japan ?



if you breed Mosura together, offspring may possibly find Golden shrimp. 
This is not only for Benibachi, all farms face the same result. 


Benibachi shrimp

tiger x tiger = 100% no golden shrimp
tiger x hinomaru = 100% no golden shrimp
mosura x mosura = have a chance to have golden shrimp

You can test yourself by breeding your Mosura PRL or PBL which you or your friend recommend. 
The result will be as my explanation.


I insist that Benibachi never breed or cross breed PRL with Golden shrimp.

Regarding your case, Golden offspring was happened in Thailand because I ordered only Mosura that time. 

After I found this problem, I keep explaining customer, so it's well organize and no more issue.

if you don't want Golden offspring, please breed Mosura with Hinomaru or Tiger.

One more thing, the original Benibachi shrimp will only come from Miyaki Sendai Japan.

----------


## binniez

> that mosura black is from benibachi japan and all benibachi shrimp in honkong shop also from japan by me


So am I right to say that the Mosura Black is not PBL like what you mentioned since it came out with golden offsprings?

----------


## gryphon

Bro Robin, Sorry to hear about your experience. IMO the Thailand Benibachi really cheated you when claiming the Mosura BDS as Benibachi PBL. 
I really don't understand what Benibachi-th meant below when the Mosura you bought already has golden gene and yet will not have golden offsprings when crossed with
Hinomaru or Tiger
_Benibachi has never breed with Golden, 
If you give us chance and try breeding that Mosura with Hinomaru or Tiger, 
you will not find any Golden offspring._

Anyway Silane's expectations of shrimps should be very high, his culls might be gems to others

----------


## benibachi-th

> So am I right to say that the Mosura Black is not PBL like what you mentioned since it came out with golden offsprings?



what shrimp give the first golden shrimp to the world ? PRL ?

----------


## benibachi-th



----------


## binniez

> what shrimp give the first golden shrimp to the world ? PRL ?


The first Golden shrimp to come out was truely from CRS and not PRL. If it was a rare mutation, I believe it would be just a one off case. We are talking about a rare mutation in this case whereby even with Mr Hisayasu Suzuki, the founder of crs, thousand of pieces bee shrimp came out with only 3 pcs of red crs. Thats the kind of mutation rate that I can accept. 

But in this batch of offsprings, there were so many of them. Genetically, i believe that it could be from a piece of male with a golden gene. Also, I have been breeding PRL and PBL in my tanks. I do have mosura or sss pieces and so far after so many batches, I have not seen one with golden offspring. So based on theory, I believe your arguement is not valid. We are not talking about one or two pieces of golden offspring but so many of them.

Quoted Benibachi - TH

"After I found this problem, I keep explaining customer, so it's well organize and no more issue.

if you don't want Golden offspring, please breed Mosura with Hinomaru or Tiger.

One more thing, the original Benibachi shrimp will only come from Miyaki Sendai Japan."

So there were others who encounter the same problem as me? Having plenty of Golden offsprings? If we knew there were going to be a percentage of golden offsprings in every batch then why bother calling it a PRL or PBL? My normal crs can jolly do that as well.

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## binniez

Oh ya. And for your information. I didn't buy any benibachi mosura PBL from you in your shop because your mosura PBL were pinkish on the white part. So definately it wasn't the case you mentioned that i had mosura cross with mosura coming out with golden offsprings. I bought only ss grades from you. And also the picture you posted. I believe those are not to be sold at anything below SGD 200-300 right? I believe its the hi quality shrimp that you mentioned comes certification.

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## Yulbrainer

Good point Robin, maybe benibachi-th can pm me the price of the shrimp on the photos?

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## benibachi-th

> Oh ya. And for your information. I didn't buy any benibachi mosura PBL from you in your shop because your mosura PBL were pinkish on the white part. So definately it wasn't the case you mentioned that i had mosura cross with mosura coming out with golden offsprings. I bought only ss grades from you. And also the picture you posted. I believe those are not to be sold at anything below SGD 200-300 right? I believe its the hi quality shrimp that you mentioned comes certification.


i ganrantee that all black bee is from benibachi japan your can check it becuae i order only 1 time for black bee .

yes all shrimp is higrade shrimp and the price is also high 

the picture is show how japan people interesting benibachi shrimp .

Grand opening Benibachi gallery Tokyo

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## binniez

I still believe you are evading the topic. Were those pure black line from benibachi or were they black diamond shrimp? Too many golden offsprings to justify that they are of a pure black linage.

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## SeahSengYong

> if you breed Mosura together, offspring may possibly find Golden shrimp. 
> This is not only for Benibachi, all farms face the same result. 
> 
> 
> Benibachi shrimp
> 
> tiger x tiger = 100% no golden shrimp
> tiger x hinomaru = 100% no golden shrimp
> mosura x mosura = have a chance to have golden shrimp
> ...


If Mosura x Mosura = have a chance to have golden shrimp,
why would people want to buy high premium for mosura PRL?

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## heavenkid

Hmm so what is the point of buying benibachi low and middle grade of prl whereby their offspring high chance will be golden... I might as well buy normal grade of crs..

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## benibachi-th

> I still believe you are evading the topic. Were those pure black line from benibachi or were they black diamond shrimp? Too many golden offsprings to justify that they are of a pure black linage.


I do not know at all because I am not breeder. Sorry that make you disappoint about low grade Black bee .i can only ganrantee that shrimp is from japan and it is not fake shrimp . you can call it is PBL or black diamond as you like .

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## binniez

Hell yes I am disappointed! Instead of clarifying with your Japan counterparts to see if they are indeed what they are stated you tell me that you don't know and you are not a breeder after sprouting so much rubbish. So you are those kind of unscrupulous merchant swindling your customers off based on their lack of experience? If you do not know what is PBL then why tell me its a PBL? Those shrimps yes, can be from Japan. But Japan does not come out with only PBL or PRL, there are also crs and bds. So do you think it is justifiable to sell goods that are not matching of value and falling below expectation? If yes, then i can only say that either you are bringing benbachi lineage down or you are accusing benibachi of cheating. Period.

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## magpie

I have been down to gc last weekend and saw that their PBL is like normal bds. Some are brown colour hino and there is a piece where the white is faded. Really doubt the so called PBL selling at gc

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## benibachi shrimp

シンガポールの皆さんこんにちは！
Benibachi Shrimp/ JAPAN
KENJI SAKURAです。
私の親友、Benibachi shrimp tahilandより連絡をもらい投稿します。
http://benibachi.ocnk.net/

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## benibachi shrimp

日本でＣＲＳと呼ばれたshrimpが出てきたのはおよそ10年前のことでした。
当時は赤色と透明なえびだけでした。
それから10年の年月を得て現在のred bee shrimpに至ります。
今では赤の濃い個体・白の濃い個体等様々ですが、
benibachi shrimpでは綺麗な白を追求してきました。
５年前はmosuraと呼ばれる個体が人気がありました。
mosuraを作るには、白の面積が多い個体を厳選し、掛け合わせる必要があります。
その過程でsnowと呼ばれる個体が突然変異で出ることはあります。
しかしbenibachiはsnowは全て選別外とし掛け合わせたことは今迄一度もありません。
逆に赤を追求していくと白の部分はピンクやクリーム色になりがちです。
私は個人的に綺麗な白が好きなので今まで赤を追求するのではなく白を追求してきました。
日本では赤が濃い個体・白が濃い個体どちらが優越と分けていません。。
それぞれが、自分の好きなタイプのshrimpを飼育することで趣味が楽しめます。
また日本ではＰＲＬと呼ぶ人は誰もいません。
赤が好きか白が好きか？それだけです。両方綺麗な個体を選ぶ人は多くのお金を必要とします。
自分好みのshrimpを探し、皆さんで楽しみましょう。

Benibachi Shrimp/JAPAN
KENJI SAKURA
http://benibachi.ocnk.net/

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## cheetf

Nice shrimps but what are you trying to show? You can show the prettiest of shrimps but I think the most important issue here is integrity. Something that beni thailand has lost since shrimps sold as Pure BL have produced goldens. Not having goldens is something which many hobbyist think defines the purity of the line. I would think 1 golden can be considered a fluke and it is probably how goldens started anyway. But how do you explain so many? 

This would not be an issue if the shrimps were not sold as PBL but it is too late now isn't it? Now no matter what certs or photos that you produce or supply, hobbyist will have that nagging doubt if they really got what they paid for.

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## cheetf

English please

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## Yulbrainer

> I do not know at all because I am not breeder. Sorry that make you disappoint about low grade Black bee .i can only ganrantee that shrimp is from japan and it is not fake shrimp . you can call it is PBL or black diamond as you like .


Hi benibachi-th,

We have a case (recently, i hope you aware of it) of seller claiming it is PRL by showing super nice picture, but turn out it is not near to the pic.
From what i see, this thread is more like 'marketing' strategy (for benibachi lineage, now we have the Japanese user in our forum),
but the lack of transparency and information make it really annoying to some of us.

BTW: anyone can help to translate the kanji?

----------


## benibachi-th

The shrimp came out in Japan called CRS and was about 10 years ago.
At that time there was only red and transparent shrimp.
Red bee shrimp leading to the current month and year obtained 10 years.
Now is the white variety of solid dark as dark red solid,
have been pursued in a clean white benibachi shrimp.
Five years ago there were individuals called popular mosura.
To create a mosura are carefully selected individuals in a large white area, you must multiply.
Individuals can get a mutation, called snow is in the process.
But the snow will be multiplied by benibachi and sorting out all the time until now no.
Part of pursuing a red and white are the opposite tends to be pink and cream.
I have sought to pursue the red instead of white so far I like the clean white personally.
In Japan, which is not separated from the superior white solid dark dark red solid. .
Each can enjoy the hobby by raising their favorite types of shrimp.
In Japan people do not call anyone and PRL.
I love you like red or white? That's it. Individuals who choose to clean both require a lot of money.
Locate your favorite shrimp and enjoy with everyone.

from google

----------


## benibachi-th

> Nice shrimps but what are you trying to show? You can show the prettiest of shrimps but I think the most important issue here is integrity. Something that beni thailand has lost since shrimps sold as Pure BL have produced goldens. Not having goldens is something which many hobbyist think defines the purity of the line. I would think 1 golden can be considered a fluke and it is probably how goldens started anyway. But how do you explain so many? 
> 
> This would not be an issue if the shrimps were not sold as PBL but it is too late now isn't it? Now no matter what certs or photos that you produce or supply, hobbyist will have that nagging doubt if they really got what they paid for.


PRL or PBL from my meaning is the shrimp which not breed with golden shimp .In japan there is no word PRL or PBL .

----------


## benibachi shrimp

IMG_0117_R.JPGIMG_0738_R.jpg

----------


## binniez

So what you are trying to say is you crossed the PRL with snowwhite to obtain better body pattern and later do selective breeding to eliminate the golden genes? As what you have claimed, there were no more golden offsprings afterall the selective breeding.. In my case why were there so many? And in this case, why were the shrimps sold as Pure Black Line if they have been crossed with golden in the first place? They were confirmed by your Benibachi Thai Franchise to be Pure Black Line. There was no mention that there will be golden offsprings crossed out from this batch. So now what is what? Does it mean that your Pure Red Lines are also not pure and mixed with snowwhite at a certain time and later refined to what they are now? Also those high quality shrimps that come with certificate, are they crossed with golden offsprings as well or are they the really pure line? Will they come out with golden offsprings too? From my point of view as a consumer, there seem to be some hidden clauses that were not made known and disclosed. Not an ethical way to do business.

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## cheetf

> PRL or PBL from my meaning is the shrimp which not breed with golden shimp .In japan there is no word PRL or PBL .


Then by your definition any shrimp pair that breeds where one is not a golden you get PRL or PBL. Even if one of the shrimps in that pair is an off spring of a golden/PRL?

If that is true then it probably explains why so many golden appeared.

----------


## benibachi-th

benibachi shrimp farm want to breed the best shrimp with bright white and good red .

the process to do bright white may have golden offspring but it is sure that we never

use golden shrimp to breed 

this is the last that i will answer 

Thank you for interesting

----------


## binniez

I figured out thats the case. In this case, I urge all brothers to only buy after careful consideration. If nothing has been crossed, then i really find the percentage of golden offsprings highly disturbing. Buy if you don't mind golden offsprings. After all the founder had less than 1% mutation rate among so many pieces compared to my 30-40% mutation in 2 batches of shrimplets. Food for thought. Will say nothing more on this. Just a heads up for the others. Good day to all and sorry if I have offended anyone in the process of finding out the truth.

----------


## heavenkid

Can master silane care to share his thought with us on this?

----------


## soonhong

> 日本でＣＲＳと呼ばれたshrimpが出てきたのはおよそ10年前のことでした。
> 当時は赤色と透明なえびだけでした。
> それから10年の年月を得て現在のred bee shrimpに至ります。
> 今では赤の濃い個体・白の濃い個体等様々ですが、
> benibachi shrimpでは綺麗な白を追求してきました。
> ５年前はmosuraと呼ばれる個体が人気がありました。
> mosuraを作るには、白の面積が多い個体を厳選し、掛け合わせる必要があります。
> その過程でsnowと呼ばれる個体が突然変異で出ることはあります。
> しかしbenibachiはsnowは全て選別外とし掛け合わせたことは今迄一度もありません。
> ...


 初めまして、シンガポールのONGと申します。ちょっと分からないことがあるので皆さんにお聞きしたいのですが。
先日私の友人がタイの紅蜂と言うお店でblack bee shrimpを買ったのですが、このときblack bee shrimpは抱卵していました。
数週間後にその卵から生まれたのが白えびでした。
なぜblack bee shrimp から 白えび が生まれるのですが？
今まで聞いたこと見たことも無いので驚いています。
もしお分かりの方がいらっしゃいましたら教えていただけますか。よろしくお願いします。

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## veggie

English please almost all here is Singaporean don't under jap thanks

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## binniez

after translation
First let alone, My name ONG and Singapore. I want to ask everyone you know because there is little.
I bought a black bee shrimp at a shop called Red Bee my friend in Thailand last Sun, black bee shrimp and incubation was at this time.
Shrimp was born from the egg white in a few weeks.
I was born white shrimp from the black bee shrimp why?
We've never seen so surprised ever heard.
Could you tell me if you can see more Irasshaimashitara. Thank you.

Can use google translate if you want an easy translation.

----------


## soonhong

> English please almost all here is Singaporean don't under jap thanks


Hi Bro Veggie, 

Sorry for that, I told the Benibachi Japan about Robin who bought the berried Benibachi PBL from Benibachi Thai shop and the PBL gave birth to golden offsprings week later. Ask if the Benibachi Japan can explain why this can happen and we were surprised to hear about the golden offsprings.

----------


## veggie

> Hi Bro Veggie, 
> 
> Sorry for that, I told the Benibachi Japan about Robin who bought the berried Benibachi PBL from Benibachi Thai shop and the PBL gave birth to golden offsprings week later. Ask if the Benibachi Japan can explain why this can happen and we were surprised to hear about the golden offsprings.


Thanks alot bro soonhoon.

----------


## veggie

By the way what bro soohong said it true, we need a explanation why beni PRL will have golden offspring? As right now I have a few pcs of beni PRL n right now it berried. As I don't wish to see any golden in them if not I will want a full refund from where I buy.

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## heavenkid

> By the way what bro soohong said it true, we need a explanation why beni PRL will have golden offspring? As right now I have a few pcs of beni PRL n right now it berried. As I don't wish to see any golden in them if not I will want a full refund from where I buy.


What bro veggie said is right! I myself also bought a few beni PRL from green chapter, right now there is one mama berried. Should the 20% of the offsprings are golden. I don't think its fair to us consumer. Green chapter should give us a explaination too. What is the point of buying PRL from them in the case of this.

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## rcw

omg another prl problem.
so who has the real authentic prl then?
sellers must be real careful when they post next time.

sent from iphone killer

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## Yulbrainer

Why should the seller has to be careful? shouldn't it the buyer?

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## rcw

> Why should the seller has to be careful? shouldn't it the buyer?


what if the seller sell and buyer got golden offsprings?then the buyer will make noise.
again I really scared I will get golden as I got prl as well...but I wont shoot.cos its never ending. seller will push to previous seller and it just goes on......
so seller must confirm his quality 1st.

sent from iphone killer

----------


## newlife

> Bro Newlife, I am not shooting anyone here. In this case, I believe if you are being told that you are going to get PBL of course you would expect only PBL offsprings and nothing else. Its matching the expectation with the actual product. If you are going to tell me that I am paying 100 bucks for a BDS does it make sense? Furthermore, since now that he has admitted that these PBL were infact only BDS Mosura, don't you think that this is another case of cheating?
> 
> Quoted Benibachi - TH
> "Your shrimps which brought from Thailand and found many Golden offsprings was my fault. 
> Demand of Mosura in Thailand is very high, so I ordered all Mosura Black. 
> 
> Benibachi has never breed with Golden, 
> If you give us chance and try breeding that Mosura with Hinomaru or Tiger, 
> you will not find any Golden offspring. "
> ...


I'm 100% agree that it's a sign of cheating going on...and I'm not referring anything against your words.

And as for price paid for good shrimps...I fully agree...
I did not grumble on the quality...instead happy with the quality I got from the price I've paid for...
I've always mention...got $$$....got nice shrimps...

----------


## Yulbrainer

> what if the seller sell and buyer got golden offsprings?then the buyer will make noise.
> again I really scared I will get golden as I got prl as well...but I wont shoot.cos its never ending. seller will push to previous seller and it just goes on......
> so seller must confirm his quality 1st.
> 
> sent from iphone killer


If seller sell PRL, imho buyer has the right to question why there is golden offspring (in higher %).
It is seller responsibility to make sure that the breeder is keeping a pure lineage, that is the "pure" means (at least to me).
Anyway it is a good thread to get better understanding on how the professional breeder do their business  :Smile:

----------


## rcw

> If seller sell PRL, imho buyer has the right to question why there is golden offspring (in higher %).
> It is seller responsibility to make sure that the breeder is keeping a pure lineage, that is the "pure" means (at least to me).
> Anyway it is a good thread to get better understanding on how the professional breeder do their business


Totally agree. lets see who is the first to sell pure beni online.
I doubt so, people will post selling beni PRL.
Instead to prevent bullets shooting, safe way to post is "WTS: High Grade CRS from GC"
Really sad to hear that people gets golden from PRL. Haiz

----------


## Yulbrainer

I remember there was a thread selling benibachi prl here, but when i contact the seller, no reply.
Suddenly, it is sold!
From the price, i can understand why it is sold so fast  :Razz:

----------


## GreenChapter

Dear All,

Just to clarify a few points:

1) BENI-TH (Aquamarts, AM) was the first official BENIBACHI Gallery out of Japan. AM has helped in referring thus establishing BENI-SG (GC) as well as BENI-Hong Kong. As SG/HK cannot afford to place order big enough to get directly from JP, AM becomes the facilitator in bringing in the shrimps and then redistributing them. AM has been bringing in bigger volume of shrimps, thus BENI-JP travels there only.

2) BENI-TH has regular imports every 2 months, GC will tag along with orders when we can. There is certainly no breeding and reselling of offsprings. At GC, most berried shrimps are snatched up first anyway.

3) At the moment, [email protected] is the only shop carrying the BENIBACHI Shrimps, transhipped via Thailand, Directly from Japan.


As for the doubts on the offspring issues, we are in the process of getting a detailed breeding process and selection criteria from the BENIBACHI FARM itself. Please understand that time is required for them to organise information into a simplified presentation that we can all understand easily. Will publish information once I have them on hand.

I also seek the understand from all that as English is not something that Thais and Japanese use regularly, their command of grammar and vocabulary are limited. So sentences might appear blunt in some ways. The replies are by no means offensive or arrogant.

----------


## GreenChapter

Hi All,

Here are some questions posted to BENIBACHI Japan (Mr. Kenji Sakura) and the answer. Hope I have interpreted it correctly. 

*Q: What is PRL (Pure Red Line)? Is this term originated from Japan?*
A: This term is unknown and not used in Japan. I heard of this term only when I come to Thailand, Singapore and Vietnam. I have the impression that PRL means Red Bee Shrimp having clean and dark redness. I heard that PRL is a term coined by user in another country. 

*Q: What is a High Grade Shrimp in Japan?*
We call them High grade Hinomaru or High grade Mosura. Those with beautiful deep red and deep white are considered good grades. There are many breeders in Japan. If a snow offspring is produced, it is moved to a tank with only snow. Snow are not used in breeding. However, there are a few breeders who do that.

*Q: How are high grade shrimps bred in Benibachi Farm?*
We repeatedly sort out and propagate using only good shrimps.

*Q: How are shrimps with thick and dark white bred?*
Only red bee with dark coloration are sorted out as breeding stock. It is possible to have snow offspring when you breed 2 specimen of example: MOSURA. Snows are in high demand here, so I did not export much of it due to shortage.

*Q: Are different type of red bee bred in different tanks specifically?*
Yes. We have breeding tanks for Mosura, Hinomaru and Mix band.

*Q: How are F1 shrimps produced and what type of shrimps are exported?*
For example, the first baby produced from SSSS Tank A x SSSS Tank B is called F1. We export mostly F4 shrimps.

----------


## veggie

[QUOTE=GreenChapter;605805]Hi All,

Here are some questions posted to BENIBACHI Japan (Mr. Kenji Sakura) and the answer. Hope I have interpreted it correctly. 

*Q: How are shrimps with thick and dark white bred?*
Only red bee with dark coloration are sorted out as breeding stock. It is possible to have snow offspring when you breed 2 specimen of example: MOSURA. Snows are in high demand here, so I did not export much of it due to shortage.

but from what i know in japan snow is not really wanted in japan. As i seen some of the wedsite in japan not really much guy post snow in the pic. As for benibachi if you guys say it in demand in japan.why in benibachi wedsite don't show any snow in their wedpage too???

----------


## GreenChapter

As far as i know from checking with BENIBACHI, snow are not produced in large numbers. There are dealers in japan who wants them and there is not enough for supply. So it is not posted as exported items.

There are periods where certain types of shrimps are popular, and not.

No question of your depth of knowledge on Japan market, but I think it is big enough that we may not know all about it.

----------


## veggie

> As far as i know from checking with BENIBACHI, snow are not produced in large numbers. There are dealers in japan who wants them and there is not enough for supply. So it is not posted as exported items.
> 
> There are periods where certain types of shrimps are popular, and not.
> 
> No question of your depth of knowledge on Japan market, but I think it is big enough that we may not know all about it.


 

i know that. but if you are saying it in high demand in japan why they are not showing any snow in their web page? i am not trying to find fault or anything. but in a biz if something is in high demand, we will try to show our best product in our website, to promote it. am i right to say that? 

( i am not finding trouble or anything, i just wish to get to the bottom of this )
cheer...

----------


## GreenChapter

Hi Veggie,

High demand is relative to the number produced in the farm, please note again that snow white is a by product in the explanation, not a main stream item bred in quantity for export. I do not have an exact number of the production. I believe in a farm serving a large market, hundreds pieces of snow white produced irregularly on a monthly basis is an insignificant and unstable production.

Notwithstanding, I do not have a say or know how BENIBACHI runs its operation in Japan since we run independently. If you are interested in finding out more, I suggest you can email Kenji Sakura himself. He can read basic English.

----------


## veggie

hi GC,

thanks for the info, i will ask my jap friend to find out for me thanks

----------


## binniez

Hi Roland, 

So based on this. Can I presume that these shrimps that are being sold are expected to have snow white offsprings and that it is totally normal as compared to Pure Red Line? So in other words, what you are selling is only normal CRS that looks good and solid but not Pure Red Line? Need clarification on this. 

Based on the premium price that many have paid and the promises of the seller that this is a Pure Red Line it turns out that this is not what is being stated and sold for. Is this not the responsibility of the sellers to find out and explain to customers before they purchase the shrimps? I believe many of the bros here bought on presumption that these were PRL and nothing else. Even if you are aware of the golden offsprings that are going to come out, I believe its your duty to explain to buyer or to state these on the tanks or notices to warn buyers. If they do go ahead then its a happy buyer and happy seller. In this case i believe many has been misleaded. I maybe wrong here if I state that all of these buyers are misleaded. Can we have a show of "hands" of buyers who were mislead to believe that these were PRL?

----------


## GreenChapter

Hi Robin and All,

As mentioned, clarification from BENIBACHI is that if you breed specimens with very high percentage white together such as MOSURA, there is a possibility to get Snow White off springs. You will not get Snow White when breeding among assorted grade and patterns. In the farm, snow white are picked off and were not used in the breeding process. 

Pure line shrimps generally means:
1) Selectively bred with good gene (good body shape, no deform) and coloration
2) Higher grade have thick white and red, graded regardless of body pattern.
3) Not cross bred with golden/snow-white
4) Not necessary have red or white legs.
5) Is possible to have low grades with not so good color thus the various grades.

A search in internet of what is PRL generally show result with such meaning although I do come across a few that says the opposite, not necessary to my advantage:

1) The term Pure Red Line (PRL) is actually referring to the gene pool which has not been crossed with golden/snow white shrimp or any other shrimp for that matter, in order to achieve high percentage whiteness. As a result, the genes, particularly the red and whiteness are very stable resulting in a higher grade shrimp in terms of thickness of colour.

2) http://shrimpsider.wordpress.com/
Post dated July 13 2011, An article on Pure Lines which has more information among pages that I read. 


To all dear customers who had purchased shrimps from our shop and strongly felt that they had been misled by GC in doing so, and is getting snow whites from the off springs, please kindly come forward.

----------


## Oliverpool

I maybe new in AQ but I have been larking around very long. Just did not feel much need to post anything and I treat AQ more for information. I have this to say as GC has been one of the few shops in Singapore that I like to frequent. The shopkeeper has been very helpful with dispensing with information. The shop is well kept and clean and they do now bring in many fishes that are less commonly seen in other lfs. 

As Benibachi has stated, they do not cross breed snow white/golden in their "PRL" So how can you say it is not "PRL"? You purchased your Benibachi from the Thailand dealer. He came in and stated that he may have made a mistake by possibly giving you Mosura black? Did not quite understand if thats what he meant though. So your experience may have been the Thailand dealer fault. GC being in Singapore for a number of years would defintely have many forumers posting of their "golden" experience from their Benibachi experience purchased from GC. But I have not seen any thus far. I think GC asking for foumers to post their experience would be a good indication if this is a isolated incident or the fault of the Thailand dealer. 

I have not seen any other reports from forumers here or in other places where there have been reports of their PRL from Benibachi off spring having goldne offsprings. If it was common, I would believe that many of us would have come across their reports anyway.

I will now seat down and eat my popcorn and see if there are anymore fireworks! :-p




> Hi Roland, 
> 
> So based on this. Can I presume that these shrimps that are being sold are expected to have snow white offsprings and that it is totally normal as compared to Pure Red Line? So in other words, what you are selling is only normal CRS that looks good and solid but not Pure Red Line? Need clarification on this. 
> 
> Based on the premium price that many have paid and the promises of the seller that this is a Pure Red Line it turns out that this is not what is being stated and sold for. Is this not the responsibility of the sellers to find out and explain to customers before they purchase the shrimps? I believe many of the bros here bought on presumption that these were PRL and nothing else. Even if you are aware of the golden offsprings that are going to come out, I believe its your duty to explain to buyer or to state these on the tanks or notices to warn buyers. If they do go ahead then its a happy buyer and happy seller. In this case i believe many has been misleaded. I maybe wrong here if I state that all of these buyers are misleaded. Can we have a show of "hands" of buyers who were mislead to believe that these were PRL?

----------


## avex30

> I maybe new in AQ but I have been larking around very long. Just did not feel much need to post anything and I treat AQ more for information. I have this to say as GC has been one of the few shops in Singapore that I like to frequent. The shopkeeper has been very helpful with dispensing with information. The shop is well kept and clean and they do now bring in many fishes that are less commonly seen in other lfs. 
> 
> As Benibachi has stated, they do not cross breed snow white/golden in their "PRL" So how can you say it is not "PRL"? You purchased your Benibachi from the Thailand dealer. He came in and stated that he may have made a mistake by possibly giving you Mosura black? Did not quite understand if thats what he meant though. So your experience may have been the Thailand dealer fault. GC being in Singapore for a number of years would defintely have many forumers posting of their "golden" experience from their Benibachi experience purchased from GC. But I have not seen any thus far. I think GC asking for foumers to post their experience would be a good indication if this is a isolated incident or the fault of the Thailand dealer. 
> 
> I have not seen any other reports from forumers here or in other places where there have been reports of their PRL from Benibachi off spring having goldne offsprings. If it was common, I would believe that many of us would have come across their reports anyway.
> 
> I will now seat down and eat my popcorn and see if there are anymore fireworks! :-p


Hmm yes use too maybe the previous shopkeeper was very very helpful i always go there to eat snake and during that time yes it was clean. Have you been to GC lately? I just drop in to check out the tds powder on tuesday in the evening time the whole place is stack with borneawild soil???? Hardly can go near the shelf. The shopkeeper is placing a lot of stuff on the floor while he was doing his work of tighting moss to lava rocks. Now there is even a smoking corner outside. I will not go to the shrimp as i didn't buy any i just want to touch on this part which you highlighted also regarding how long you lurk around doesn't matter your join that is Jul 2011. You lurk everywhere in sammyboy in AF or whatever forum but you in fact join in jul 2011 which give me a doubt how long have your been lurking around.

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## newlife

Just to find out from those who have bought benibachi shrimps and have started breeding...
How is the off-spring???

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## Oliverpool

This is exactly the reason why I am not active in certain forums. I have my right to post and give my comments as I see fit. Just as you do as you see fit. But calling names and suggesting people to get out of the way and saying they have nothing to contribute anyway is not right and defeats the purpose of a forum.

I never said I have nothing to contribute. I precisely joined so that I could tell others of my experience with a small chiller suitable for a nano tank (not cheap though and am still looking for a better/cheaper as small version out there). 

Since we are on this. Why not then tell us what you define as PRL and what you see as wrong with Benibachi explanation so that we can all learn at the same time?

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## eviltrain

A few questions here, 

1) what is Mosura Black? SSS grade black diamond shrimp? are they from Benibachi too? 

2)

avex30 : Benibachi prl or crs hahahaha very swee leh hmmm must go GC see again hahaha benibachi-th : Benibachi is PRL  :Grin: 

quoted from post #6

benibachi-th : PRL or PBL from my meaning is the shrimp which not breed with golden shimp .In japan there is no word PRL or PBL . 

quoted from post #97

my question is, are they or are they not PRL? 

or for the the case now, does it means even the PRL is never cross with Golden, 2 PRL flowerhead may produce full white off springs? low percentage or as high as 40%? 

if this case, why would people bother to get best-grade and best-colour just breed out golden. 

unless there's no such thing as PRL anymore. =.=

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## Ecalyte

Actually.. I'm wondering if anyone here actual even know what PRL means, or if we're all just following the meaning from the next person. I mean we're all going based on the assumption that the common knowledge is true. But remember when the entire world (bar a few) thought the earth was flat?

Who was the first person to coin this term PRL? How did he get to coin it? Was he the right authority-figure in the hobby to coin this phrase. Finally, the definition of this term that was first coined by this person.. was it an actual practice?

We all 'know' that the practice of PRL means that we don't mix our shrimps with golden genes. But do we all 'know' for sure that this practice will eliminate in its entirety the possibility of golden shrimps? Even Mr Benibachi himself said that while the mixing of golden shrimps with their breeding stock is not practiced at all, some are still produced. Does anyone here know where the FIRST golden shrimp came from? If it's an entirely different sub-species then yes.. we can discount its possible appearance on a PRL line. But if it's just another colour morph of the CRS, then the chances of it appearing (although minute) is still VERY possible. 1% of a 10,000 breeding shrimp population is still 100 pieces.

I feel that what happened to bro binniez is horrible, and can be put down to the mistake of the shopkeeper's ignorance and lack of knowledge in the matter (ASSUMING he's not benibachi-th himself) or just plain bad-faith business (less harsh than the actual word 'cheating'). So everyone here is up in arms and asking questions about the legitimacy of the Benibachi line and the PRL-ness of it. And I feel the answer we got is very satisfactory to the questions being laid out. 

We asked if the line is really a PRL line based on our understanding of PRL (never bred with golden shrimps)
Our answer: While they're unfamiliar with the term PRL and claim that this term is not used in Japan, their practices seem to adhere to the meaning of PRL that we understand.

Who is it really that first said that having a PRL CRS means there is ZERO possibility of a golden shrimp? Wasn't this PRL practice started in Japan?

Right now a lot of people are angry and frustrated and so have started using personal attacks to soothe their feelings of injustice. I think we need to calmly take a step back and see if our arguments are still valid, or if we're just still pissed

I think a moderator here would be useful to prevent anymore personal attacks from being thrown, and to prevent this thread from becoming another flaming thread like our previous PRL one..

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## avex30

> This is exactly the reason why I am not active in certain forums. I have my right to post and give my comments as I see fit. Just as you do as you see fit. But calling names and suggesting people to get out of the way and saying they have nothing to contribute anyway is not right and defeats the purpose of a forum.
> 
> I never said I have nothing to contribute. I precisely joined so that I could tell others of my experience with a small chiller suitable for a nano tank (not cheap though and am still looking for a better/cheaper as small version out there). 
> 
> Since we are on this. Why not then tell us what you define as PRL and what you see as wrong with Benibachi explanation so that we can all learn at the same time?


 
K why not you start a thread to share it instead since you said you join precisely to share that. I ain't asking you to get out but if your precisely join to share that mini chiller than shouldn't it be the pirority to share it 1st?

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## binniez

Bros, Please relax and chill. We are only checking what is the views of benibachi japan on their product.

Bro Oliverpool, I have no doubt that GC is a very nice place for shrimping and shopping for aquarium stuff. Never have I doubt their quality of service even from the previous shop assistant and the current one. All has been polite and respectful to me whenever I shop there. Thus, I am not directing anything at GC but rather at the shrimps of benibachi lineage as there are few points that we have to clarify. Hope you do understand. The topic of PRL seems to be pretty subjective and right now there are some doubts that we need to clarify. As mentioned the shipment of shrimps come from Japan to Thailand and then shipped to Singapore thus it changed hands at benibachi Thailand before it reach GC. The question is now on the fact that there is a golden gene trait in the lineage. 

My doubt is only on the % of golden offsprings that are supposed to be reasonably expected. Would it be a rarity of 1% like what Bro Ecalyte mentioned or the 40% that I am getting. Would need to trouble Roland to clarify on the statistics so as to prevent further dispute on this matter. For myself, this has already been accepted as a loss on my end and just to raise awareness on forum for the other bros to note that golden offspring is expected and prevent further dispute as well as for the awareness of the future buyers. Have already accepted that golden offsprings are expected since benibachi Japan has already made their views clear.

Bro Avex30 and Cheetf, Please chill as i believe Bro Oliverpool mean no offense. I believe we just needed some clarification on this. We are here to learn even myself that i didn't know that PRL and PBL does not exist in Japan.

Lastly to Roland, would like to extend my sincere apologies if I have offended you and your good establishment in the process of finding the truth of the lineage. Please rest assured that GC is still a very nice place to shop and quality of service is definately there. This is not meant as a personal attack but on finding out more on the lineage of the benibachi shrimps that you are selling. Kudos to you for offering to assist those affected rather than the franchise from benibachi Thailand who just shrug off his shoulder and says that he does not know because he is not a breeder. At least GC has stepped forward and offered assistance that I believe its a kind gesture that will go a long way.

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## Ecalyte

Bro binniez, very magnanimous of you!

Can I ask something? In the Aquamart shop in Thailand.. do they only stock benibachi shrimps? Do they also have snow whites for sale? Because I'm thinking of a possible scenario that during the sorting out into the actual tanks, they could have gotten pregnant by a snow white or another shrimp that could have resulted in this. Why I ask this is because when I first started, I bought a few shrimps from CRS Haven.. I got home about 4-5 hours later and found that one of them was already berried!! O_O !!

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## Oliverpool

> K why not you start a thread to share it instead since you said you join precisely to share that. I ain't asking you to get out but if your precisely join to share that mini chiller than shouldn't it be the pirority to share it 1st?


Err I did a first report. But I need to monitor it more to see how it works in cold and hot weather to see whats the range it works with in my setup so other nano tank know if it will possibly work for them. You do know that TEM chillers are not very effective as a cooling device esp in our type of weather right? So I want to make sure that I give proper results so that others can make a valued judgement to try it or not. I think there are many TEM that are possibly cheaper though but thats another topic not suitable for this thread. :-p

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## Oliverpool

> Bros, Please relax and chill. We are only checking what is the views of benibachi japan on their product.
> 
> Bro Oliverpool, I have no doubt that GC is a very nice place for shrimping and shopping for aquarium stuff. Never have I doubt their quality of service even from the previous shop assistant and the current one. All has been polite and respectful to me whenever I shop there. Thus, I am not directing anything at GC but rather at the shrimps of benibachi lineage as there are few points that we have to clarify. Hope you do understand. The topic of PRL seems to be pretty subjective and right now there are some doubts that we need to clarify. As mentioned the shipment of shrimps come from Japan to Thailand and then shipped to Singapore thus it changed hands at benibachi Thailand before it reach GC. The question is now on the fact that there is a golden gene trait in the lineage. 
> 
> 
> Bro Avex30 and Cheetf, Please chill as i believe Bro Oliverpool mean no offense. I believe we just needed some clarification on this. We are here to learn even myself that i didn't know that PRL and PBL does not exist in Japan.
> 
> Lastly to Roland, would like to extend my sincere apologies if I have offended you and your good establishment in the process of finding the truth of the lineage. Please rest assured that GC is still a very nice place to shop and quality of service is definately there. This is not meant as a personal attack but on finding out more on the lineage of the benibachi shrimps that you are selling. Kudos to you for offering to assist those affected rather than the franchise from benibachi Thailand who just shrug off his shoulder and says that he does not know because he is not a breeder. At least GC has stepped forward and offered assistance that I believe its a kind gesture that will go a long way.


Binniez - I take no offence and sympathise with your situation. You do bring up many good points which I hope will be answered to everyones satisfaction when this thread has run it course.
I am also interested in learning the truth as I do intend to go into CRS soon. But due space issue, I only have space currently for a nano tank. Thats why I was looking into smaller chillers suitable for nano tanks! Even looking for suitable filters for nano tanks are not easy. Wonder why the makers out there are not catering for this market as it seems to be a hot topic for many people?

The changing of "hands" for the shippment is a interesting point. Does it mean just hold the shrimps (still bagged) for 1 day before it goes out for shipping to Singapore? Or it means that the shrimps are released into a tank before bagging up the next day for shipping thus the possibility of "contamination" happening?

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## avex30

> Err I did a first report. But I need to monitor it more to see how it works in cold and hot weather to see whats the range it works with in my setup so other nano tank know if it will possibly work for them. You do know that TEM chillers are not very effective as a cooling device esp in our type of weather right? So I want to make sure that I give proper results so that others can make a valued judgement to try it or not. I think there are many TEM that are possibly cheaper though but thats another topic not suitable for this thread. :-p


Yes Of i know 

from DIY form box chiller (Fail)
To DIY TEM chiller (Fail)
To looking at the 2 type of TEM 1 (Iceprobe which a few online and somewhere with a shop name R______p is carrying to the other china model sold in Aquastar,Y618,32 :Cool: 
To finally running a chiller from the smallest i found hailea 100A (2nd hand - 1st hand resun 280)
To now the next stage using 1 chiller chilling 2 tanks. 

You say leh?? k i don't want to drag this into this topic i  :Mad:  and let the original mean of this thread continue.

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## cheetf

> This is exactly the reason why I am not active in certain forums. I have my right to post and give my comments as I see fit. Just as you do as you see fit. But calling names and suggesting people to get out of the way and saying they have nothing to contribute anyway is not right and defeats the purpose of a forum.
> 
> I never said I have nothing to contribute. I precisely joined so that I could tell others of my experience with a small chiller suitable for a nano tank (not cheap though and am still looking for a better/cheaper as small version out there). 
> 
> Since we are on this. Why not then tell us what you define as PRL and what you see as wrong with Benibachi explanation so that we can all learn at the same time?


You were the one who said you only leech (not calling you names) information from the forum. So why the sudden interest to participate and stir the situation up with your popcorn and fireworks comments and all? What's your motive? Don't give me the bull crap answer of 'to learn'. 

Nobody said GC was cheating people, they are not Benibachi. One of the issues was the fact that shrimps were sold as pure when they were no where near pure. It is only logical that there may be a small percentage of mosura breeds snow whites but when 30-40% of the offsprings come out as golden, then it is no where near pure as statistically it is not right. It is okay if those shrimps were priced at nice BDS but when you price them a PBL prices people expect to get what they pay for.

Plenty of explanations of what PRL is on this thread, I need not elaborate further I am sure you can use your leeching skills to find it yourself.

----------


## Oliverpool

Pls stop your name calling. I already posted before I got
Interested in this thread. I stated reasons why I am interested in this thread. You may be a veteran. But frankly I feel you can state your points without insults. There is just no need for it. I am
here to learn. 

Anyway I apologize if my comment on eating popcorn and watching fireworks meant differently to folks here. I just meant that I was interested in seeing both sides of the coin from experts here. Nothing more nothing less.





> You were the one who said you only leech (not calling you names) information from the forum. So why the sudden interest to participate and stir the situation up with your popcorn and fireworks comments and all? What's your motive? Don't give me the bull crap answer of 'to learn'. 
> 
> Nobody said GC was cheating people, they are not Benibachi. One of the issues was the fact that shrimps were sold as pure when they were no where near pure. It is only logical that there may be a small percentage of mosura breeds snow whites but when 30-40% of the offsprings come out as golden, then it is no where near pure as statistically it is not right. It is okay if those shrimps were priced at nice BDS but when you price them a PBL prices people expect to get what they pay for.
> 
> Plenty of explanations of what PRL is on this thread, I need not elaborate further I am sure you can use your leeching skills to find it yourself.

----------


## Oliverpool

Yes. Let's not go off topic ;-)




> Yes Of i know 
> 
> from DIY form box chiller (Fail)
> To DIY TEM chiller (Fail)
> To looking at the 2 type of TEM 1 (Iceprobe which a few online and somewhere with a shop name R______p is carrying to the other china model sold in Aquastar,Y618,32
> To finally running a chiller from the smallest i found hailea 100A (2nd hand - 1st hand resun 280)
> To now the next stage using 1 chiller chilling 2 tanks. 
> 
> You say leh?? k i don't want to drag this into this topic i  and let the original mean of this thread continue.

----------


## Ecalyte

Actually bro binniez, from my understanding, the practice of PRL originated from Japan. This is after searching the forum archives all the way to 2004-2005 on this and other forums. Those interested can PM me and I can lead them to the thread. This is the first ever thread that I can find. What they mean is that the term "PRL" and "PBL" does not exist there. This is why I ask the bros here if they knew what they were saying when they mention the word. As far as I'm concerned, if the originating country of practice don't even know this word, then everything that people know about PRL has to hinge on the person who originated the TERM. So, I'll repeat the questions

Does anyone here know who he/she is?
If so, do they then know the exact definition and the meaning of this when the term was first coined?
Was he/she the authoritative figure to coin this term? If not, then can't anyone just coin a term and make it a norm? Then how legitimate can this term be?
And if everyone here are just following the word of the next person who passes it on, then how SURE are you personally of the exact definition of this term?

Remember, just because everyone thinks that this is the general meaning of the term.. everyone once thought that the earth was flat. (Beating a dead horse, I know.. but I can't think of another example)

People here are under the impression that as long as there is golden offsprings it means that it's not PRL at all. But who first decided this? Because as far as I understand, there is STILL a minute possibility. 

I think this is VERY important question to ask. This is because there are now COMMERCIAL entities using this term under an understanding that MAY DIFFER from the original and INTENDED understanding. This is what caused the rift between business and consumer due to the different understanding and EXPECTATIONS. If the Japanese SOURCE says there is no such word as PRL and PBL being used in Japan, then how can their 'distributing offices' use this term to promote their shrimps?Or is there actually an equivalent meaning to the term PRL and PBL that is being used in Japan? Benibachi shrimps in Singapore are not the only ones coining this term by the way. Crimson PRLs have hit our shores in commercial shops too and they're also using the term "PURE RED LINE." 

And bro cheetf, while you may be a veteran.. I agree with bro Oliverpool that your personal attacks are not only unnecessary but also very rude. You've twice questioned his knowledge on PRL without actually contributing your own knowledge towards this.. Maybe you can enlighten us?

If the intention of PRL breeding to eliminate the poor white coverage of the CRS body by removing golden shrimps out of the equation from breeding.. then ponder on this question. Why are PRL culls (which are plentiful) more acceptable than golden shrimps? If the ENTIRE AIM of the PRL breeding is to ELIMINATE the poor white coverage, then when your brood is experiencing a good % of culls.. shouldn't you then ALSO question the purity of the line? I believe that we are all throwing around the term PRL and PBL without actually knowing 100% what it means. It's not like a word where you can check the dictionary for. This is a term that was coined by an INDIVIDUAL and then passed along through word of mouth and other related media mediums such as the forums.

Back on the topic of the weird high percentage of golden genes that bro binniez actually got from his brood.. I think it could be the case of contamination? But it's highly unlikely. I think it's more likely that it was business done in bad faith, or an ignorant / unknowledgeable shop keeper..

Also, can we please have a moderator to try and control the personal attacks being thrown about unnecessarily here?

----------


## heavenkid

Bro cheetf, i totally agree with bro Ecalyte, bro Oliverpool is free to comment on his thought. I don't find his comments rude or what. Since he already apologise for his popcorn statement, you should stop calling people name. You are very rude.

----------


## cheetf

Anyone heard of the term turquoise or black shadow ? Well it's a shrimp we all treasure. But what is it? Actually it's how the Japanese describe blue bolt and black king kong. So does this mean we have to go look for the TERM? Ask the japanese where to get a blue bolt and black king kong is and you will probably lead you to a hardware shop or a video store. So do we now have to go ask and find out who/ what/when/why/ how again? 

The term PRL. What does it describe? Pure Red Line that is it, it's a noun. It means to me that the lineage is pure as from the day it started , all the unwanted genes have been bred out and kept pure in that way. In the process preserving the features that the breeder wants to keep. 

Goldens possess a set of genes that are viewed as bad to PRL breeders but not necessarily to others. If golden genes were bad, there would be no blue bolts and other such beauties that we treasure so much.

Who coined the term? Heard of someone saying 'double confirm'? Who coined it? Did he have the authority to coin it? Does it matter? Is it being used? Most important that the people who use it know what it describes.

Well if you go look up the study of genetics, you will be able to tell us if the elimination can be done (here's a hint: it can be done). Many lines don't produce golden in their PURE RED LINES.

Got a question, How do you sell something if people don't know what it is? If you had to name something to sell, would you name it under a name that would get you the most money or the least money? PURE RED LINE pays the most bills. End of the day if you want to sell locally you have to use local terms that the people understand. 

Does it matter if I am a veteran? Did I barge in and come out of my closet and decide to be hero? (Heroes die first by the way). When you come in and defend the wrong thing and make arrogant remarks such as 'I will now seat down and eat my popcorn and see if there are anymore fireworks' what do you expect in an area of heated argument. Anyway he made a remark that i shall use here also, it's a forum and I can say whatever I want.

Wow the world is not flat? Learned something again….

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## cheetf

> Bro cheetf, i totally agree with bro Ecalyte, bro Oliverpool is free to comment on his thought. I don't find his comments rude or what. Since he already apologise for his popcorn statement, you should stop calling people name. You are very rude.


I never say he couldn't comment. By the way what name i call him ah?

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## kendrick_86

> Bro cheetf, i totally agree with bro Ecalyte, bro Oliverpool is free to comment on his thought. I don't find his comments rude or what. Since he already apologise for his popcorn statement, you should stop calling people name. You are very rude.


liked  :Smile: 

Bro ecalyte, i think the "self proclaimed" shrimp master might have some answers to your questions. Perhaps we can invite him here. He can share his vast experience with our dear forummers.

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## cheetf

Wah finally come out of hiding ah?

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## kendrick_86

ignorance is bliss...  :Razz:

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## cheetf

Come back to ENLIGHTEN us ah? Got new sites?

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## eviltrain

> liked 
> 
> Bro ecalyte, i think the "self proclaimed" shrimp master might have some answers to your questions. Perhaps we can invite him here. He can share his vast experience with our dear forummers.


err, i thought you are one of the "self-proclaimed " shrimp master with years of shrimp rearing experience and the one who use others people's success web page and enlighten us?

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## eviltrain

Mod please do not close thread, this thread is very important for the rest of the newbies. For them to understand more things about PRL. We need to fully understand every detail.

From what i know, taiwan and hongkong use the word 純 also know as Pure.

Another point, taiwan and hongkong started PRL few years before.

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## soonhong

As what I understand from the competition 红白祭 in Japan which the highest bid in the auction of bidder site win the competition...and all breeders will mention that no golden has been used to cross and no golden has been produced before in the auction .. As I believe this point is very important to japanese and golden might give some poor white offsprings..

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## bai

For the benefit of those CANNOT read Chinese, cannot search Chinese words or read Taiwan FORUMs. The word Pure which is 纯，and 纯系 ( Pure Line) is commonly used in Taiwan, Hong Kong and China. The local terms Pure Red Line is a reasonable translation, IMO, from Taiwan term which they have starts the keeping of PRL long before us.

Singapore is in the same situation as Taiwan which are not the shrimps originating country, so by following terms used by Taiwanese is more reasonable then using Japan terms.
Both countries share lot of common terms like crystal red shrimp (水晶虾), Black King Kong (黑金刚)。
Pure ( Red ) Line is a meaningful translation of 纯系 , which is easy understood.

I can give you example of terms used by Japaneses which is totally clueless to us for especially the newbies. Japaneses have this term, red bee (in English when they talk) is used to describle crystal red shrimps or red bee shrimps, but to use it is not meaningful to call a shrimp as a bee.

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## Oliverpool

Bro avex30. Please do a search of the word leech be it at wiki or otherwise and tell me if some people will take offense at that word. (I know he added not calling names) Also adding words such as crap in the same paragraph does not help matters. 

I know in forums sometimes what gets written and what a person actually means gets lost. So lets move on pass this. This is a interesting thread compared to the typical ones here. So lets not get it locked.

What Cheetf brought up about some other brands "PRL" not having any Golden shrimps is interesting. Is this true? The way I understand genes is that it cant be eliminated. It will only be recessive and the chances of it happening just becomes less as it is being selectively breed out. 

I have not had a chance to check on the competition soonhong bro talked about yet. But IMO "so far no golden has not been produced" is not the same as will not produce. But then again we are dealing with nature. So when we mess with nature anything can happen. 





> Kid as you call yourself here you asking someone to share his view 1st of all you Bought the shrimp from GC and you're worry like hell what your offspring is going to be and try to ask someone out to share his years experiences and comment <=== you already trying to stir something.
> 
> 
> 
> And here your wind Blow very fast in a different direction. May i know what do you agree with them on??? Bro Chee is just point out his view on what Bro Oliverpool is saying he merely repeat what he call himself And Yes each of them is also trying to point out the Whole PRL thing. I point on Bro Oliverpool statment is because i find it abit off track cause everyone is trying to get a clear picture of the PRL and not point finger that GC is bringing in Crap to sell at high price a mere disagreement. And here from my view you are trying to stir something? May i know which statement did you see that bro Chee call Bro olivepool name ??? WHat i see is merely Bro Chee repeat what Bro Olivepool call himself. So please go understand what they are arguing about if not pls go 1 corner there to sit down and learn and don't come add oil and vinger to the whole thing. People here are trying to contribute and debate what they know what about you??? 1st thing you do worry 2nd thing you do call someone with years of experience dude you should call your father that you got cheated and not someone else

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## ZackZhou

2 of My hakata just given birth, 0 golden/snow white.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## binniez

Chill bros, we are not here to pinpoint on each other. But my understanding of PRL is that there might be rare mutation of the PRL offsprings leading to golden offsprings. However, the mutation rate will only be rare and not common. Thats the point that i am pointing out originally and is trying to see if GC can check with Benibachi to see if they are able to provide any statistics of golden offsprings in percentage date. Afterall, to hear of prl sss x sss chances of crossing out snowwhite is of a higher percentage is totally new to me honestly. That totally caught me offguard.

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## binniez

> Bro binniez, very magnanimous of you!
> 
> Can I ask something? In the Aquamart shop in Thailand.. do they only stock benibachi shrimps? Do they also have snow whites for sale? Because I'm thinking of a possible scenario that during the sorting out into the actual tanks, they could have gotten pregnant by a snow white or another shrimp that could have resulted in this. Why I ask this is because when I first started, I bought a few shrimps from CRS Haven.. I got home about 4-5 hours later and found that one of them was already berried!! O_O !!


Hi Bro Ecalyte, the Aquamart in Thailand has a section only exclusively for benibachi shrimps. Its is partitioned out with viewing tanks where you can net the pieces that you fancy. On top of that, there is also another area whereby they have the rest of the shrimps which I personally do not think they are from benibachi as they have an assortment of shrimps ranging from bkk, wr, golden eye black tiger and other shrimps. Hope this helps.

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## Ecalyte

ahhh... so i think the chances of cross contamination is very slim yea? I'm thinking there may be some contamination in terms of mixing shrimps and sorting them out before putting them in various partitions. That could explain the pregnant PBLs having snow whites.. but like I mentioned before this is very slim pickings..

I'm baffled too man.. either way, I feel for you. These kind of experiences are really crappy. The worst feeling is not really about the money, but more of the expectations dashed... The sense of being cheated. I think that's a lot more painful than the actual money lost..

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## RonWill

> Also, can we please have a moderator to try and control the personal attacks being thrown about unnecessarily here?


 The discussion so far has been relatively civil, albeit heated, but make no mistakes in thinking that the admins and moderators are not watching this thread. We will not hesitate to take those to task who blatantly flout forum rules and libel statements will not be tolerated.

Keep the discussions on topic and we may all learn something from it.

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## stormhawk

It's not even National Day yet and the fireworks have gone off. The case in point is that of a possible contaminated line originating either from Thailand or from Japan, as what binniez has experienced. 

Both Benibachi TH and GC have replied in good faith regarding this matter, with a proper explanation of the sourcing and purity of the lines involved. GC has made the offer to affected buyers to come to the store for rectification if they are unhappy about the shrimps they purchased with respect to this "PRL" matter.

I do not claim to know much about shrimps but even GENETICS will tell you that these shrimps are basically selectively bred. In most cases they will breed true but if there are offspring that show otherwise, then that line probably needs more work. Time and again even with guppies and bettas, there will be instances where the resulting offspring may show traits not found in either parent. 

A certain forumer here needs to be taken to task.

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## stormhawk

> Hmm yes use too maybe the previous shopkeeper was very very helpful i always go there to eat snake and during that time yes it was clean. Have you been to GC lately? I just drop in to check out the tds powder on tuesday in the evening time the whole place is stack with borneawild soil???? Hardly can go near the shelf. The shopkeeper is placing a lot of stuff on the floor while he was doing his work of tighting moss to lava rocks. Now there is even a smoking corner outside. I will not go to the shrimp as i didn't buy any i just want to touch on this part which you highlighted also regarding how long you lurk around doesn't matter your join that is Jul 2011. You lurk everywhere in sammyboy in AF or whatever forum but you in fact join in jul 2011 which give me a doubt how long have your been lurking around.


I know both the previous and current shopkeepers on a personal basis and both have always been helpful. I understand the situation with the Borneowild soil, but given the shop space, can you blame them? C328 is just as messy, as with many other LFSes which have too much stock and too little "space". Ever wondered why some provision stores are chock full of goods? Yet people don't complain about these stores, let alone moan about the "lack" of walking space.

Is smoking a crime? Maybe to non-smokers but I find nothing wrong with a bunch of guys just sitting out and chilling with a cigarette in hand if they so wish. Even you mentioned that you used to go there to "eat snake" so what's the difference? Note, I do not smoke and I don't spend time at the "smoking corner" when I come down to look at the livestock. If you feel this is a problem, by all means raise it to the shop owner.

The current shopkeeper has always been messy by nature, but he takes good care of the plants and livestock. The quality of the fishes speaks volumes of his care and knowledge of fish husbandry, along with shrimp husbandry. See this in contrast with other LFSes that do not even bother to feed or take care of their animals.

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## avex30

Dear mr stormhawk I think you misinterpret what I want to say to oliverpool. I m pointing to him what gc currently look like. I am not complaining about gc or the new shopkeeper. If I want to complain gc than I will go to the authority fsb 1 simple reason blockin of fire access and 328 will also get it. So if you read it and not jump to the conclusion that I m aiming at gc n his shopkeeper I do visit gc n and talk to Roland n the new shopkeeper also jokes also. Why would I want to come Here to rant my chant on a thread when no one can do anything about it. It is their premises they can do what they like. But since post was delete than I rest my case. RIP to me. So mr stormhawk please go read what I want to communicate with oliverpool n not jump to the conclusion I m picking on GC. Oh I notice another post deleted mr ken stir ask someone whom self proclaim as master to enlighten that is not wrong? But when I point out his self proclaim many yrs of experience and yet showing Taiwanese pics is wrong n got deleted? Wow

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## avex30

> Bro avex30. Please do a search of the word leech be it at wiki or otherwise and tell me if some people will take offense at that word. (I know he added not calling names) Also adding words such as crap in the same paragraph does not help matters. 
> 
> I know in forums sometimes what gets written and what a person actually means gets lost. So lets move on pass this. This is a interesting thread compared to the typical ones here. So lets not get it locked.
> 
> What Cheetf brought up about some other brands "PRL" not having any Golden shrimps is interesting. Is this true? The way I understand genes is that it cant be eliminated. It will only be recessive and the chances of it happening just becomes less as it is being selectively breed out. 
> 
> I have not had a chance to check on the competition soonhong bro talked about yet. But IMO "so far no golden has not been produced" is not the same as will not produce. But then again we are dealing with nature. So when we mess with nature anything can happen.


hi bro oliverpool let it pass since you m chee are not hovering over the issue. Don't get me wrong that I am against you or anything I very much agree with you this is a very education topic and should not be locked down for the little argument but if you do read thru I ain't the one stirring there a few of them stirring and suddenly disappear like waiting for a advantage to post again. Frankly I am cool and sorry to you if what I reply to you may sound harsh no damage intended. Hope you are cool with and see past the different points
Of view. Cheers to you

----------


## binniez

> Actually bro binniez, from my understanding, the practice of PRL originated from Japan. This is after searching the forum archives all the way to 2004-2005 on this and other forums. Those interested can PM me and I can lead them to the thread. This is the first ever thread that I can find. What they mean is that the term "PRL" and "PBL" does not exist there. This is why I ask the bros here if they knew what they were saying when they mention the word. As far as I'm concerned, if the originating country of practice don't even know this word, then everything that people know about PRL has to hinge on the person who originated the TERM. So, I'll repeat the questions
> 
> Does anyone here know who he/she is?
> If so, do they then know the exact definition and the meaning of this when the term was first coined?
> Was he/she the authoritative figure to coin this term? If not, then can't anyone just coin a term and make it a norm? Then how legitimate can this term be?
> And if everyone here are just following the word of the next person who passes it on, then how SURE are you personally of the exact definition of this term?
> 
> Remember, just because everyone thinks that this is the general meaning of the term.. everyone once thought that the earth was flat. (Beating a dead horse, I know.. but I can't think of another example)
> 
> ...





> For the benefit of those CANNOT read Chinese, cannot search Chinese words or read Taiwan FORUMs. The word Pure which is 纯，and 纯系 ( Pure Line) is commonly used in Taiwan, Hong Kong and China. The local terms Pure Red Line is a reasonable translation, IMO, from Taiwan term which they have starts the keeping of PRL long before us.
> 
> Singapore is in the same situation as Taiwan which are not the shrimps originating country, so by following terms used by Taiwanese is more reasonable then using Japan terms.
> Both countries share lot of common terms like crystal red shrimp (水晶虾), Black King Kong (黑金刚)。
> Pure ( Red ) Line is a meaningful translation of 纯系 , which is easy understood.
> 
> I can give you example of terms used by Japaneses which is totally clueless to us for especially the newbies. Japaneses have this term, red bee (in English when they talk) is used to describle crystal red shrimps or red bee shrimps, but to use it is not meaningful to call a shrimp as a bee.


Hi Bro Ecalyte, I believe bro Bai has made a very detailed answer to your question. I believe in a way or another we have been following Taiwan or Hong Kong terms of addressing these shrimps. Probably not coined by just someone alone. Even Thailand benibachi has been using the term PRL and PBL. Thus, I believe it is not started in sg whereby we are lagging in terms of the shrimps development in someway or another as most mutation started overseas.

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## cheetf

> Bro avex30. Please do a search of the word leech be it at wiki or otherwise and tell me if some people will take offense at that word. (I know he added not calling names) Also adding words such as crap in the same paragraph does not help matters. 
> 
> I know in forums sometimes what gets written and what a person actually means gets lost. So lets move on pass this. This is a interesting thread compared to the typical ones here. So lets not get it locked.
> 
> What Cheetf brought up about some other brands "PRL" not having any Golden shrimps is interesting. Is this true? The way I understand genes is that it cant be eliminated. It will only be recessive and the chances of it happening just becomes less as it is being selectively breed out. 
> 
> I have not had a chance to check on the competition soonhong bro talked about yet. But IMO "so far no golden has not been produced" is not the same as will not produce. But then again we are dealing with nature. So when we mess with nature anything can happen.


Sorry that we got off on the wrong foot. Just that some sentences tend to ignite more than others when in a heated argument. Good to see that you are more active in the forum now. 

With regards to the genes, it can be eliminated. If you start with a pair which have no recessive genes you don't have to worry about it appearing. How you determine there are no recessive genes? Try to have a look at this guy named Gregor Mendel's findings with peas. You can work out where the dominant and recessive genes go with his findings. Plus having a big pool of shrimps help. Hehehe.

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## Oliverpool

It's all good bro 

I have no doubt that it might possible to eliminate certain genes. But plants and living creatures. Now that's a different thing altogether due to the size of the gene pool. Guess it's all about statistics at the end of the day as you stated . Given enough time and shrimps who knows what we can achieve!

I did some checks and It seems like Singapore exports something around 15-20% of the fish market globally. Given this scale why is it most of the "inventions/fish fads" are not from Singapore? Come on your shrimps lovers! Do more experiments And let's have some mutants of our own! Sorry just saw x-men......






> Sorry that we got off on the wrong foot. Just that some sentences tend to ignite more than others when in a heated argument. Good to see that you are more active in the forum now. 
> 
> With regards to the genes, it can be eliminated. If you start with a pair which have no recessive genes you don't have to worry about it appearing. How you determine there are no recessive genes? Try to have a look at this guy named Gregor Mendel's findings with peas. You can work out where the dominant and recessive genes go with his findings. Plus having a big pool of shrimps help. Hehehe.

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## cheetf

Eh, no problems. Can I apply for a research grant from you please? Experiments take a lot of time and hence cost a lot of money. What we export I think is only a fraction of what the price of the item is sold at overseas. If margins are low, no one will be bothered to experiment.

The other problem is most fads and such are not from Singapore is because much of the lifestock here is too cheap. Have you seen what the price of a neon tetra is overseas? Only a certain section of the market is high end. As such the people don't treasure what they have. Just buy, throw in the tank and hope for the best. 

So in the end the root cause is still money. Why do you think there is such big hoohaa in this thread about PRL ? Because it is of a certain value and because of that the people who pay for it have certain levels of expectations. Would the discussion be the same if it was you cheap old grade C CRS?

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## avex30

> It's all good bro 
> 
> I have no doubt that it might possible to eliminate certain genes. But plants and living creatures. Now that's a different thing altogether due to the size of the gene pool. Guess it's all about statistics at the end of the day as you stated . Given enough time and shrimps who knows what we can achieve!
> 
> I did some checks and It seems like Singapore exports something around 15-20% of the fish market globally. Given this scale why is it most of the "inventions/fish fads" are not from Singapore? Come on your shrimps lovers! Do more experiments And let's have some mutants of our own! Sorry just saw x-men......


One thing it is also the market demand is there or not. Like Qianhu i read that they experiement with fishes but i guess shrimp are more delicated and sensitve.

Bro hard for the price everyone is paying they will not want to experiment due to resales value like. Just like cars when you selling it off if it is in their orginal condtion w/o mod on it the price is different from the car that is mod. So for many hobbist whom plan to sell off due to bioloads or decomm i doubt they will want to experiment. 

As for LFS basically is a stopover transition from supplier hand > their hand > buyer so they would not spend the time to create mutants.

So far i must say only encounter mostly oversea breeder i mean it all boil down to $$ issue and resales for alot of breeder and hobbist. I have read on shrimpnow germany breeder using tiger and BKK to xbreed hahaha if you go ask a local breeder he will say you "SIAO LATER HOW TO SELL" so i guess to create local mutant which he can brand as Singapore product by whom hmmm one word "HARD" Only know a few hardcore that will do that.

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## stormhawk

> Oh I notice another post deleted mr ken stir ask someone whom self proclaim as master to enlighten that is not wrong? But when I point out his self proclaim many yrs of experience and yet showing Taiwanese pics is wrong n got deleted? Wow


Perhaps your original post with regards to what Kendrick said in the past got deleted, maybe by me or another mod, but it serves no purpose but to give motion to Kendrick's intentions, be it good or bad. I understand your position but at times, the choice of words makes others misunderstand. Still, my apologies if you feel that I am aiming at you. That was not my intention but I had to defend the GC shopkeeper because he is a good friend and an excellent, albeit messy fishkeeper.  :Laughing: 

@cheetf,

I appreciate your gesture to clear matters with Oliverpool. That is kindly appreciated as we're all fellow hobbyists here.

I've read what Mendel did with his fruit flies and the peas. Still, there have been cases of genetic throwbacks from time to time.

The case that Robin encountered is probably one of these random occurrences. Nonetheless, the farm ought to give him and every other hobbyist a clear explanation as to why their quality shrimps are not breeding true. Whether this is a problem at the Thailand side, or in the farm in Japan itself, we may never know but that price that one pays, it is only fair to get a clear answer from the source. It is no excuse for a farm that is producing quality livestock to be selling sub-standard animals for sale at these prices.

Trolls aside, let's all shake hands and sit down and remember, that it's just a hobby. Let's not argue over tiny things.  :Smile:

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## avex30

> Perhaps your original post with regards to what Kendrick said in the past got deleted, maybe by me or another mod, but it serves no purpose but to give motion to Kendrick's intentions, be it good or bad. I understand your position but at times, the choice of words makes others misunderstand. Still, my apologies if you feel that I am aiming at you. That was not my intention but I had to defend the GC shopkeeper because he is a good friend and an excellent, albeit messy fishkeeper.


Hi Mod thanks for reading my explanation and frankly i m messy keeper myself so like i original said i have no intend to complain but mere pointing out. I understand the point if now someone was to point at the previous shop i would say i too will jump out and defend him too. No harm done lets move thanks for the reply. Cheers have a nice weekend

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## eviltrain

sorry, anyone mind tell me what is mosura black? 

black diamond shrimp mosura grade with golden gene?
or
pure black line mosura grade?

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## vynax

Is it a mosura black king Kong? it is just my guess, i have not heard of this term before, Bro evil, where did you get this term?

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## eviltrain

> Is it a mosura black king Kong? it is just my guess, i have not heard of this term before, Bro evil, where did you get this term?


some where just before benibachi-th went mia. hee hee

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## vynax

There is nothing much we can do since he Mia.


We just have to wait for the self proclaimed shrimp masKer to come out of his cave to enlighten us, hope he does not laugh at us again.

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## binniez

I am puzzled by the term mosura black as well. I am not to sure if he was referring to black diamond shrimp. It seems that beni th is not using the term PRL and PBL anymore.. =/

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## avex30

> There is nothing much we can do since he Mia.
> 
> 
> We just have to wait for the self proclaimed shrimp masKer to come out of his cave to enlighten us, hope he does not laugh at us again.


Sorry so who is self proclaim I read from mr k n now u pardon my ignorant. Cause I've not seen anyone whom claim to be master unless u're refering to someone in taiwan whom I read not self proclaim but was holding the shrimp master title. Maybe mod should put a stop to this. It think really uncalled for to keep doing.

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## RonWill

> Cause I've not seen anyone whom claim to be master unless u're refering to someone in taiwan whom I read not self proclaim but was holding the shrimp master title. Maybe mod should put a stop to this


 I believe the regular shrimp-keepers know to whom this title belongs to but let the person chip in when deemed necessary.

Although this thread is being monitored, a moderator's intervention is not required at this point of the discussion.

Meanwhile, your time is better served researching into the origin of the PRL terminology that has given rise to much attention lately.

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## avex30

> I believe the regular shrimp-keepers know to whom this title belongs to but let the person chip in when deemed necessary.
> 
> Although this thread is being monitored, a moderator's intervention is not required at this point of the discussion.
> 
> Meanwhile, your time is better served researching into the origin of the PRL terminology that has given rise to much attention lately.


Thanks Ron just find that if this person really interested to post his view he will appear those remark like "Self proclaim" is sorta of rather not necessary so i guess i will just  :Mad:  my mouth than & read nah my time is spend on trying to figure out my next up as i won't venture into PRL so i guess i will just read quietly  :Mad:  than.

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## eviltrain

> I believe the regular shrimp-keepers know to whom this title belongs to but let the person chip in when deemed necessary.
> 
> Although this thread is being monitored, a moderator's intervention is not required at this point of the discussion.
> 
> Meanwhile, your time is better served researching into the origin of the PRL terminology that has given rise to much attention lately.


just wondering why this enlightened shrimp master do not just share the knowlege to us, but always ask us to pm him to know then answer. so weird.

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## avex30

> just wondering why this enlightened shrimp master do not just share the knowlege to us, but always ask us to pm him to know then answer. so weird.


Oh because of that people start calling self proclaim?? i thot that should be trying to remain low profile??

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## newlife

> just wondering why this enlightened shrimp master do not just share the knowlege to us, but always ask us to pm him to know then answer. so weird.





> Oh because of that people start calling self proclaim?? i thot that should be trying to remain low profile??


Bro...."USER UNDER MODERATION".....Reputation -26
hee hee....what you think???
http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419769&highlight=

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## eviltrain

> Bro...."USER UNDER MODERATION".....Reputation -26
> hee hee....what you think???
> http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419769&highlight=




oooo. no wonder la. thanks for the highlight. 

i still wants to know what mosura black is. kekeke

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## veggie

Hi bro out there, I have a question so is it ok that we keep PRL, PBL or king kong (black shadow) in the same tank? Why I ask this question is because I have see some LFS that keep PRL & PBL or PRL & KK together. And from the info I get from the Internet, they will not house even PRL with different lineange together. That is making me very blur!!!

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## avex30

> Bro...."USER UNDER MODERATION".....Reputation -26
> hee hee....what you think???
> http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419769&highlight=


 
Hahaha thanks bro no wonder.

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## newlife

> Hi bro out there, I have a question so is it ok that we keep PRL, PBL or king kong (black shadow) in the same tank? Why I ask this question is because I have see some LFS that keep PRL & PBL or PRL & KK together. And from the info I get from the Internet, they will not house even PRL with different lineange together. That is making me very blur!!!


Where and which LFS you saw?

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## veggie

> Where and which LFS you saw?


I don't really want to name it out. I just want to know what you guys do. Cause for me I just started out with PRL only so I don't really know much.

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## binniez

Much.. House as in release them to roam freely in the same tank or like what c328 is doing keeping them in different bags but in the same tank?

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## newlife

Ya...same tank or different compartment?
If you refer to GC...they kept in compartment....
Bkk + BB + WR....in 1 comparment...

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## veggie

Just kk and PRL in the same compartment

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## cbrian37

> Just kk and PRL in the same compartment


if mix with others,then the PRL is no longer "Pure'

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## veggie

> if mix with others,then the PRL is no longer "Pure'


Ok thanks bro cbrian37

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## Wackytpt

Guys,

Please refrain from posting unrelevant post or chit chat in this thread. 

Keep it clean and stick to the point.

If members have that motive to stir up this thread, bring it to other forums and not here.

Any members posting with hidden agenda will be dealt with accordingly.

Flaming is not tolerate in here.

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## veggie

Hi wackytpt, 

are you saying me?

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## Wackytpt

Veggie,
It is not target at you but to anyone who post in this thread. 
Don't be sensitive that I was targeting at you. 
Just keep this thread clean and relevant to topic. I might not be a shrimps fanatic but there are interesting informations being share. 
Thanks

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## Ecalyte

I was wondering.. KK is a mutation of the CRS gene right? So is it possible for PRL to have the same mutation?

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## eviltrain

> I was wondering.. KK is a mutation of the CRS gene right? So is it possible for PRL to have the same mutation?


its mr yeh from taiwan who found out the bkk mutation in a tank of CRS, BDS and golden. some western country also have news about having black mutation. there's a bro in AQ whose tank suddenly have wine red mutation from his BDS, CRS and golden tank. 

from what i know, if you wants mutation, you will still need golden gene. 

hope this can help those in doubt.

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## Ecalyte

But from the actual examples the tank also has BDS right? I mean all 3 variants of the CRS gene were found in the tanks with black mutation... so there isn't really anyone that can verify mutation from the golden gene right?

I think this is an interesting topic to pursue.. maybe start a new thread haha. This thread has gone off-topic so many times!

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## Htun

Do you have any idea if I want to keep shrimp, not so expensive one? I'm just starter on shrimp.

Thanks

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## Yulbrainer

1st u can read up more in aq forums.
2nd search on google
3rd decide what shrimp u want to keep
4rd prepare the budget
5th start your project

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## eviltrain

> But from the actual examples the tank also has BDS right? I mean all 3 variants of the CRS gene were found in the tanks with black mutation... so there isn't really anyone that can verify mutation from the golden gene right?
> 
> I think this is an interesting topic to pursue.. maybe start a new thread haha. This thread has gone off-topic so many times!


haha, bro, how about you create a new thread and we continue our questions and findings
there? we need to maintain the "pure-ness" of this thread

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## RonWill

> I think this is an interesting topic to pursue.. maybe start a new thread haha


 Yes, genetics is something to look into for most advanced hobbyists and those who are keen to followup on this issue can kick off a new thread but keep it civil, please. Derogatory remarks will not be tolerated.

Any and all further irrelevant posts from here on will only deviate from topic header.

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## Ecalyte

Going back to the topic of this thread..

How can we actually differentiate the top grades of all the lines? I mean.. I'm sure we can find shrimps from every line that is very similar to each other! Looking at some of the top grade benibachis that the TS (Thread Starter) have posted.. what can be improved from their shrimps? I'm looking at it.. and if we're talking about hinos, I can't see how they can be improved haha!

When they have these shrimps competitions.. how do they judge? Like the purity of the red legs? As in, the entire leg is red with no whiteness.. then combined with the clarity of the white of the shell and the shade of red?

I'm trying to find competition pictures but seem to have little luck. Are there anyone here who are in the know in regards to competition caliber shrimps and the actual competition procedures?

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## binniez

Bro, this is a competition in Hong Kong. Maybe u would like to take a look at this for reference?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kJx6wxQCFw

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## ZackZhou

Quote from Taiwan website about value of golden shrimps in Japan:

目前台灣,大家對於金蝦(白蝦)的價值,有不同的意見.
小弟好奇去問了一位目前在我的日本蝦友中蝦子等級最高的一位(此人是蝦天的好友)看看他對金蝦(白蝦)的看法.
他的回答原文如下
**************************************************************************************************
日本では人気が高いみたいですね。なんと言っても直ぐに表現が派手なのがでますので…。
実際、掛け合わせて行くと面白いとおもいますが、色の弱い固体が多いみたいです。白エビだけで繁殖させても面白いと思いますよ。 
**************************************************************************************************
小弟的翻譯:
金蝦(白蝦)在日本的人氣似乎也很高.因為金蝦(白蝦)可以很快的得到表現很花俏的蝦子.
在配種繁殖上可以的得到不少樂趣.但是實際上,得到色薄的個體似乎往往比較多.
如果只繁殖金蝦(白蝦)我認為也是很有趣的.

小弟的看法是金蝦(白蝦)也要是色厚才有其價值.因為色濃的蝦感覺上還是比較討喜滴...

Hope this help in address this thread  :Smile:

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## eviltrain

English translation for above post #203
Taiwan, we for the gold shrimp (white shrimp) value, there are different views.
Curious to ask of a brother now in my Japanese friends in shrimp shrimp, a highest level (this person is shrimp day friends) to see his golden shrimp (white shrimp) view.
His answer reads as follows
****************************************************************************************It is like in Japan is popular. The expression will appear as soon as flashy to say the least ....
In fact, I think going by multiplying interesting is that so many weak solid colors. I think it will be interesting to breed only white shrimp.
**********************************************************

Golden shrimp (white shrimp) in Japan seems to be very popular, because gold shrimp (white shrimp) can quickly get very fancy shrimp performance.
Can reproduce in the breeding get a lot of fun, but in fact, seems to be the individual color thin more often.
If only breeding golden shrimp (white shrimp) I think it is very interesting.

Brother's view is golden shrimp (white shrimp) will have to be thick, only the value of color because the color of strong feelings on the shrimp is quite lovable drop ...

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## wei

Interesting comments from the writer. I have translated it into English based on my own understanding of the Chinese wordings. Hope it helps. :Smile: 


目前台灣,大家對於金蝦(白蝦)的價值,有不同的意見.
*At the moment, in taiwan, everyone has differing opinions on Goldens(white shrimp)
*小弟好奇去問了一位目前在我的日本蝦友中蝦子等級最高的一位(此人是蝦天的好友)看看他對金蝦(白蝦)的看法.
他的回答原文如下
*Myself, being curious, has seek out amongst our Japanese Shrimp circle, a person having the highest level of shrimp status(this person is a good friend of 蝦天); to hear his views on goldens(white shrimp).
***************************************************************************************************
日本では人気が高いみたいですね。なんと言っても直ぐに表現が派手なのがでますので…。
実際、掛け合わせて行くと面白いとおもいますが、色の弱い固体が多いみたいです。白エビだけで繁殖させても面白いと思いますよ。 
**************************************************************************************************
小弟的翻譯:
金蝦(白蝦)在日本的人氣似乎也很高.因為金蝦(白蝦)可以很快的得到表現很花俏的蝦子.
在配種繁殖上可以的得到不少樂趣.但是實際上,得到色薄的個體似乎往往比較多.
如果只繁殖金蝦(白蝦)我認為也是很有趣的.
*My translation on his views:*
*Goldens(white shrimp) in Japan seems to enjoy a high popularity. Because Goldens(white shrimp) can quickly achieve fanciful presentation shrimps.*
*A lot of joy can be derive from breeding them. However, in reality, there are high chances of resulting in thin coloured individuals.*
*If breeding is solely for Goldens(white shrimps), that ought to be interesting.
*小弟的看法是金蝦(白蝦)也要是色厚才有其價值.因為色濃的蝦感覺上還是比較討喜滴...
*My personal view is that only Golden(white shrimp) with thick colours are of value. Because shrimps with thick colours still gives that likeable feel to a person.
*

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## ZackZhou

thanks alan and wei for translating this  :Smile:

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## newlife

Translated in broken English....
Hee hee....

Anyway...that's a great effort for Alan & wei...

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## YiRiYu

> Quote from Taiwan website about value of golden shrimps in Japan:
> 
> 目前台灣,大家對於金蝦(白蝦)的價值,有不同的意見.
> 小弟好奇去問了一位目前在我的日本蝦友中蝦子等級最高的一位(此人是蝦天的好友)看看他對金蝦(白蝦)的看法.
> 他的回答原文如下
> **************************************************************************************************
> 日本では人気が高いみたいですね。なんと言っても直ぐに表現が派手なのがでますので。
> 実際、掛け合わせて行くと面白いとおもいますが、色の弱い固体が多いみたいです。白エビだけで繁殖させても面白いと思いますよ。 
> **************************************************************************************************
> ...


Hi Bro Zackzhou,

When was the date of the article as it does not sound current? Thanks.

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## eviltrain

i use google translate mah. kekekke.

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## wei

> i use google translate mah. kekekke.


long time no see your updates  :Grin:

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## vynax

> Quote from Taiwan website about value of golden shrimps in Japan:
> 
> 目前台灣,大家對於金蝦(白蝦)的價值,有不同的意見.
> 小弟好奇去問了一位目前在我的日本蝦友中蝦子等級最高的一位(此人是蝦天的好友)看看他對金蝦(白蝦)的看法.
> 他的回答原文如下
> **************************************************************************************************
> 日本では人気が高いみたいですね。なんと言っても直ぐに表現が派手なのがでますので。
> 実際、掛け合わせて行くと面白いとおもいますが、色の弱い固体が多いみたいです。白エビだけで繁殖させても面白いと思いますよ。 
> **************************************************************************************************
> ...


LOL, I just found out that the piece of information posted by bro zackzhou was dated in Dec 2006.

2006 was a time when patterned CRS ruled in Japan. And Ebiten was famous for his lightning pattern flowerhead. 

Trend changes every two to three years. Now no famous breeder will openly and admittedly say they currently use golden to cross. Such outdated information without quoting a date and the source can mislead resellers and buyers.

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## eviltrain

i can confrim that bro vynax finding is true

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!wafvEP...xt=5&l=f&fid=5

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## ZackZhou

Yes, I also admitted that I am misleading. Did not see the date until I go back to verify. 
Thus, what I can say is this thrend is already not popular in Japan since 2006, then now in 2011 why does benibachi said that it's still in large demand in japan?

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## ZackZhou

Haha, apologize for not putting up date as I did not notice it myself, cheers.  :Smile:

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