# General > AquaTalk >  Bad Experience at C328

## gummynut

:Boo: 
Had a terrible experience at a LFS today. This LFS in Clementi is a hot favourite for most of the forumers here, including myself, till today. Totally surprised and felt very sore about this whole incident.

On Monday, I found out that my CO2 cylinder was empty, so I went to this LFS (where I bought the CO2 set 6 months ago) after work to have it refilled. This cylinder came as a set, together with other accessories in a box which the lady boss recommended as suitable 'for beginners for a CO2 injected planted tank'. So, myself being kiasu, I taped up the cylinder opening, just to prevent any particles from getting into the cylinder during transportation. Handed the cylinder to the lady boss for refilling after I wrote down my name on the cylinder itself. Was told to collect it 2 days later, i.e. on Wednesday night.

Came Wednesday, I went to the LFS after work to collect my CO2 cylinder and promptly paid $18 for the refill. At home, after hooking up everything, turned on the main valve and the regulator, there was no bubbles seen in the bubble counter and the gauge registered 0 PSI.  :Shocked:  Checked all connections again and still no CO2 coming out of the tank. Realised that the cylinder was actually empty.  :Mad:  All that trouble and got back an empty cylinder. 

Went down again on Thursday with the empty cylinder and approached the lady boss. After clarification, I found out that a cylinder with the opening taped means that the cylinder have been refilled!! Why didn't they check my cylinder when I deposited it?? How could they pocket my $$18 and returned my empty cylinder? She said that she was too busy to check on the cylinder when receiving it. She apologised and refunded $18. "OK", I replied and told them to fill it up AGAIN. This time, she remove the tape and asked me to come back 2 days later, i.e. Saturday (TODAY).

Today, went down again after work, paid $18 and went home with the cylinder. Hooked it up and upon turning on the main valve, CO2 was leaking badly.  :Shocked:  Puzzled. Everything was fine before I send it for refilling. Turned off the valve, picked up the CO2 set with the regulator attached and went to the LFS again. This time, I asked the male boss to do a check on my cylinder and the CO2 was still leaking badly when the main valve was turned on. He told me that leak could be due to a worn O-ring and my equipment need to be sent for repairs which could take another couple of days.  :Shocked:  WHAT!!! Come back again in another couple of days?? 

My CO2 cylinder worked perfectly before it was sent for refilling. Just 6 months old and most of the time it just sit in one corner and nobody ever touches it except for the time during initial setup. Flow control in only via the regulator and obviously in good working condition. It's almost brand new as can bee seen from the picture (mine is the 2.0L green tank). I also have 2 check valves to prevent water backflow. So, nothing should be wrong with my cylinder and also this is the first time I send it in for refill, the same shop where I bought it.

The boss listened to the history and then told me the BEST news. He said that O-ring / seal problem is common for this type of CO2 tanks and quite a few of his customers' tanks (same type) had leakage also. These tanks supposed to be imported from neighbouring country.  :Exasperated:  SO!! He has knowledge of these problematic tanks. WHY didn't he just check on them before returning them to the customer, rather than having the customer bring back a leaking tank for repairs? Better still, why is the LFS still selling these problematic tanks? Why didn't he confront the supplier on these issues and also perform checks when refilling for customers? I demanded an explanation and he just lamely replied "Mei Ban Fa" (roughly means 'Couldn't help it' in Mandarin). I expected a better excuse rather than just "Mei Ban Fa", "Mei Ban Fa", "Mei Ban Fa". He told me that I have 2 options: 

1. leave the CO2 tank for further repairs or
2. get my $18 refund and get it done somewhere else.

WHAT!?!!! Selling problematic tanks IS bad. Have poor service IS equally bad. Neglecting customer's interest IS worst. I argued that why I wasn't warned about the quality issues when I was getting it in the first place? The boss makes profit from tank sales, profit again from tank refills and AGAIN for tank repairs? How will I know now if the tank has got other problems? No confidence already. Again he replied "Mei Ban Fa". A customer here looking for the satisfaction, which he rightfully deserve, for the goods bought only to be told "Mei Ban Fa". WHERE IS THE SELLER'S RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS CUSTOMERS' INTEREST?

"OK." I said, "I'll leave it for repairs and refilled. Send it to my doorstep when it is completed, instead of having me to come all the way down again." BUT...."SORRY", he replied. "Mei Ban Fa" since we don't do delivery services.
 :Exasperated:  I AM THE VICTIM HERE. FELT CHEATED. Will you compensate me for my petrol, car park coupon, the negative effect to my tank and also the time and effort spent if I have to come down again to collect the repaired cylinder?

"MEI BAN FA", "MEI BAN FA" he replied.

I grabbed the $18, my LEAKING CO2 cylinder and stormed out of the shop. :Flame:  

I don't know if mine is an isolated case, just my bad luck or other owners of this CO2 tank experience the same problem. I am considering lodging a complain against this LFS and the supplier too if really the goods sold is found to be defective. Any bros here know how I can lodge a complain, the proper channel? Just feel the need to take action against these unscrupulous dealers out to make a quick buck out of innocent consumers. I believe that most of us here have spent alot of $$$ in this hobby and it is not worth to get crap equipment not up to expectation. What more, a defective item such as a pressure vessel like a CO2 tank can cause serious hazard and bodily harm too. I believe that a number of our forum members here had dealt with glass tank falling apart, leaking filters, equipment catching fire etc.

I might start a poll to find out if other members here having problem with this type of CO2 tank then can collectively lodge a complain to nail the culprits. When I was walking pass the shop later tonight, noticed that the equipment was still on sale. took a picture of the equipment with today's newspaper as background. the boxes still stacked nicely.

Right now, I don't have CO2 injection as I don't know what to do with that CO2 cylinder while considering other action. It's a piece of evidence. Worrying for my plants now. :Exasperated:  

Bros, please advise. Should I buy another CO2 tank?? Any recommendation/advice. People having this type tanks with problems, please feed back here. 

No words of pisdom please! I am already very PISSED OFF. :Flame:

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## ranmasatome

IF you want to get a Co2 tank, you can try NA or bioplast. Bioplast also does top up.. 15mins on the spot. I dont top up anywhere else cos they return your original tank. NA does tank exchange..otherwise its also 1 or 2 days. These sets have been on sale for a while now... i would say they are starter sets..and these problems always happen to "starter" sets for some odd reason. Maybe its because they want to make the starter set cheaper and so in turn lower the quality. not sure. take some time to cool off bro. Hope it works out for you.

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## hwchoy

how can you carry an empty tank around without noticing? it is so much lighter than a full one! personally I also only use Bioplast. In fact I went to refill today. For those who don't drive, the shop is right across the road from the MRT exit only!

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## benny

So much information and where do I begin...

I've amended the title of the thread as I believe it should be refering to C328. No need to beat around the bush. AQ is an open forum and there is no need to camouflage factual information. But do be aware to state only facts to circumvent potential defamatory threats.

It is a known fact that some budget CO2 sets does not have long shelf life. That is the reason why German made regulator/solenoid/cylinders are prefered, albeit at a premium price. However, Nature Aquarium's start up sets really good value for money have have proven to be reliable (at least for me). Refilling are "on the spot" one to one exchange for the cylinder.

Looking at the above, your CO2 cylinder may not be cause of leakage. If you had tightened the regulator to the cylinder too tightly, the O ring/rubber washer may have been compressed too much. This is a cheap replacement at most hardware shop. But this is only a speculation. Did you use plumber's tape on the screw gauge of the CO2 cylinder? Anyway, I usually keep at least 1 spare CO2 cylinder at home on standby so that I can take my time to refill the expired one.

For complaints, you can try CASE, of which you need to be a member first. However, you need to ensure that you have sufficient evidence to back your claims of a faulty product. CASE does not entertain complaints against bad service and I would certainly agree that C328 isn't the best place to get great service. They are more of a self service hypermart type of set up. But if you know your stuff, you can certainly save substantially.

On the subject of your plants, they can survive up to a week without the CO2, but there won't be much growth. If you are extremely worried, you can either add Seachem's Excel or supplement organic carbon into the water column directly. Sometimes, I let my tanks run for weeks without CO2 these days. No problem at all.

Anyway, don't be too upset over it. Give me a call on Monday and let's see what we can do to help you resolve the problem. I'm sure by the end of the week, your planted tank will be up and running again.

Cheers,

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## benny

> how can you carry an empty tank around without noticing? it is so much lighter than a full one!


This is because it's his first time refilling. I was just as "blur" when I first started.

Cheers,

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## gregorsamsa

Hey here.

I understand how you feel. On one hand, it is a case of bad after sales service. Or Maybe you caught them at a wrong time. Carrying a cylinder around to and fro is an ardous experience.

But for calling them without scruples, it is contentious. Base on my browsing of the forum rather than personal experience, the CO2 cylinder or rather the type in general seem to have a high rate of turning faulty. That is why most people recommend those sold at NA, or rather those black and silver types. Some even go for Bioplast tanks or catalina.

My take is that yes, you could try lodging a complaint. However, my point is that to pinpoint C328 for knowingly selling defective products seems to be far fetched to me. They might have expedited the situation by telling you that this product has poor QC and that you can try the more expensive products. But i believe they didn't tell you in your case.

In the same vein, could all LFS be "liable" for selling I quote, the "Matrix 1" PL light set, which based on many past reviews, has a high failure rate?

To end, I hope that you succeed in pressing your claims. I think a lesson for us all in general is that a bit of homework is needed also to ensure that we have a enduring, functionable aquarium. It will always be the case of caveat emptor.

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## hii

so many trip down to the LFS...if I will you I feel the same.

You can try benny solution or ask for help in the forum maybe some bro around you area can help you check.

I started also with this type of tank, after than change to NA type of CO2 tank ... was chatting with the boss and he told me the valve is make from german with life time warranty. 

I think 6 months enough for you to upgrade to next level and dont get yourself hot becos of this issue..treat it as lesson lor ...

Cheap product normally have short life spend...to me I also suffering for sudden die of JEBAO filter and couldn't do anything when questioning Y618 uncle cause they also never told me this product is lousy when I buy...only after I complain than they told me some spoilt in 1 month. Who I should blame? I think is the luck only...

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## hwchoy

> This is because it's his first time refilling. I was just as "blur" when I first started.
> 
> Cheers,




face it lah, you ARE blur  :Blah:

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## gummynut

Ok. i admit that i am kiasu and blur in the 1st place for not able to tell the difference in weight. but this does not warrant them for pocketing my $18 and return an empty tank. they are professionals handling lots of refilling daily. events like this should not have happened. if you go to places like Mc burgers and get a burger without the meat, you can demand a sound explanation from them and maybe you will also get a free burger as compensation too. This is what i call professionalism.

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## gummynut

definitely i'll go to shops like bioplast from now on for top-up while you wait services rather than getting these dodgy services. one bad experience last a lifetime. if can, i also want the equipment tested first before going home. :Cool:

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## hwchoy

as far as I can tell, the returning of the empty tank is an honest mistake. although I'd have to say they are just as blur for not noticing your very light empty tank.

on the other hand, you may be more warranted to feel displeased for being sold an el cheapo tank which is so unreliable. although to be fair we do not know how much subtle warning they may or may not have given you regarding the reliability trade-off for the low cost.

frankly I would be more concerned with the safety issue. you don't want the main valve to blowoff in the house as these cylinders operate at 1000 PSI.

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## Justikanz

Let me try to explain the POSSIBLE reason your CO2 is leaking... Did you carry the cylinder, before or after refilling by the main tap before? I realised that by carrying the cylinder that way, you can break the socalled o-ring. Happened to me before, same tank type. I dun carry my tank that way anymore after that. Nothing of the same problem after that.

About returning your empty tank, the shop does not turn the cylinders to the company for top up. If I din get it wrongly, the company will pick up the cylinders. As Aunty and her helpers in the shop are always busy, you will notice that their vendors always do their stuff in the shop themselves, ordering, carrying stuff etc. The sealed opening is a sign of the tank being filled and not collected. So, the vendor will not collect for re-fill. Aunty will not notice and will let you collect it back. So...  :Opps:  A misunderstaning here?

As for shops bringing in poor quality products for sale, I guess it is just normal. At least Aunty sells it cheap. But Aunty did 'issue warning' if I attempt to buy poorer quality equipment for the lower price. She ALWAYS recommend to me to buy the more expensive ones for the better quality. 

Err... I have absolutely NO RELATIONSHIP with C328. I am just trying to explain what MIGHT be happening. No point being affected by a misunderstanding and having to go another shop too far away, just to get away from it.  :Smile:

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## gummynut

> Let me try to explain the POSSIBLE reason your CO2 is leaking... Did you carry the cylinder, before or after refilling by the main tap before? I realised that by carrying the cylinder that way, you can break the socalled o-ring. Happened to me before, same tank type. I dun carry my tank that way anymore after that. Nothing of the same problem after that.


Nope. i'm absolutely certain that i didn't carry the tank the way you described. i carried it by holding to the body and tank bottom. I know that carrying it by the main tap is definitely not the way.
i am just totally displeased with their "Mei Ban Fa" treatment, just as if they are pushing away the responsibility solely to the customer. The shop owner personally told me that many customers had leakage problem with the same item, so this shows that the tanks are likely problematic. However, they did not make an effort to pass off any information about flaws linked to the tank although they possess knowledge of it. Instead, these items are still being sold off the shelves to many more insuspecting buyers. Besides, knowing that these tanks are prone to problems, they should at least help to run a check on them as a quality added service, This is to avoid the customer from bringing home an empty tank or a tank that's leaking, as what happened to me. Profit is important, so is their responsibility towards their customers, whom bring in the money in the first place.

I just want to create awareness among fellow hobbyist of this issue, lest many more may become victim like me. I don't mean to stir up trouble with anyone.
After my complain about this tank and complains of many more before me, did they curb selling the tank to more innocent hobbyist? Did they remove these items off their shelves before resolving this issue with the supplier? I DOUBT SO.

In fact, to make sure that my faulty tank is not an isolated case, as i have already mentioned, i might start off a poll.

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## gummynut

Off thread.

I'm desperate now. any info on reliable place to get the CO2 tank repaired, aside from THAT lfs? how much will it cost and how long will it take? also, the shop operating hours cause i am working in the day.

i might consider getting another 2.0L CO2 tank as spare while waiting for this leaking one to be repaired. how much will reasonably good one cost? will it fit my regulator?
if message is not appropriate to be posted here, pls PM.

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## benny

> Off thread.
> 
> I'm desperate now. any info on reliable place to get the CO2 tank repaired, aside from THAT lfs? how much will it cost and how long will it take? also, the shop operating hours cause i am working in the day.
> 
> i might consider getting another 2.0L CO2 tank as spare while waiting for this leaking one to be repaired. how much will reasonably good one cost? will it fit my regulator?
> if message is not appropriate to be posted here, pls PM.


Make a trip down to Nature Aquarium to pick up the CO2 cylinder. I believe it comes in a few sizes to fit your requirements. Call first to check before going down.

Cheers,

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## ranmasatome

This is the way some people operate. Money - customer satisfaction. and not customer satisfaction - money. When your shop is successful.. you tend to overlook these things becuase you already have soooooooo many customers and sooooooo many things to do. That is why i prefer smaller shops with more personal service. Usually when you go to big shops like these you have to know your stuff.. otherwise its just a case of a mis-informed buyer. is it their fault? not really...their job is just to sell a product. It is your job to be informed. Do they care?? not really. Why?? cos they already have so many other customers. Personally, when i dont like a shop i will still go and see see look look... no one is stopping you from making the decision not to buy from them. There will always be shops that can see what customer satisfaction equates to ($$$) and those that dont and just pursue after $$$. Doesn't mean you have to stop buying from them.. you just gotta be smart about it, and hit them where it hurts most (buy the things that they sell for the cheapest with the informed knowledge of the quality and how well it will last) and turn the situation to your advantage instead. :Smile:  Then you will start liking them again... :Smug:

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## loupgarou

I think by now you know that co2 (in most lfs, except bioplast) is done by agent at soxal, ie: they will pick it up in batch, identified by the lack or presence of the tape in the front of the tank, and then get it refilled, tape it up and send back.

its 100% probably that none of the c328 staff has even handled your tank, only the agent picks up all the non taped tanks and returns the taped tanks. so your tank probably never left the shop.

so no matter which fish shop you go to, its probably the same agent.


---

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## JT

I guess what's done is done and over. Look at the situation forward. I encounter similar problem with my CO2 B4(leak) Find out the leak area and self repair.(To find the leak, overturn the cylinder head into a pail of water. More often the O ring can be replaced in the "wu jing dian". Subsequently - gd practice as the plumbers - have the "white tape"(Tell the shop owner for pipes and taps type) wrap round the joints and connect. It works. 

Else, invest in another new set - more establish. I can recommend where to get - cheap and good or even some quite cheap and better.. :Wink:

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## gummynut

> Else, invest in another new set - more establish. I can recommend where to get - cheap and good or even some quite cheap and better..


Appreciate if you could share with me where to get cheap, good and RELIABLE ones. Right now, i am still stuck with this leaking one. i will not attempt to repair it myself as i have not done or seen it being done before. better to leave it to the professionals / experts to fix it. Any repair shop to recommend besides THAT lfs? how much will it cost and how long will it take? also, what's the shop operating hours?
or if it doesn't trouble you too much, can you help me out with the repair?

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## JT

sure(but timing got to be right)..I could take a look at it. but I'm not a plumber or mighty repairman..haha.

Based on yr current set type - think its $85 + $38..something like this. Is this cheaper? (can upgrade to larger capacity. ie more than 2l if u want. Its still at $85) - The shop is Aquastar at Yishun (quite a regular there, so know the pple there and the boss) - can talk,get info, but no discount  :Sad: ...haha)

If u want, I can help u get, then go yr place n take a look at the leaking one as well.

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## PeterGwee

$38 for a real regulator? I doubt thats possible....get him a real regulator and not some throttle valve.

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

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## JT

Think so..yes a manual regulator...as shown in his pic. Not the electric type. But I could be wrong(based on memory only), I can check and confirm the price...before everyone in this forum curse at me for the wrong quote...glurp...

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## PeterGwee

Thats a throttle valve...not a regulator. He will have issues controlling the flow rate of the CO2.

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

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## JT

ic. Thanks for the education. So regulator means electric type. Thanks

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## PeterGwee

No. Just that most regulators sold in singapore comes with a solenoid valve/coil bundled with it. You can read up on the web what a real regulator actually is. An example of a regulator without the solenoid valve is the Dennerle Profi 2000.

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

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## gummynut

> ic. Thanks for the education. So regulator means electric type. Thanks


Latest update.
after advise from Bro Benny, i've decided to head down to NA today and got myself upgraded to a 5.0L and a regulator solenoid. cost near to $200 :Crying:  but service is definitely better as they gave instructions how to hook up the thing. maybe at that time the shop is not crowded. they said that this set is more reliable and no complains from customers so far. Hope that they are trustworthy. only time will tell. Bro Soulfinder78 posted this about a $75 for a regulator solenoid.

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=16903

i got a $89 one instead, looks better and more reliable as was told.  :Knockout:  still feeling faint from the sudden lost of BLOOD.......... money.

Bro JT. if you are free, i'll bring the leaking tank over to your place for repairs. the tank is still filled. leaks only when i turn on the main tap. HISS loudly and pretty scarry. The upper portion of the tank turns cold instantaneuosly. wonder if the thermal shock is detrimental to the structure. don't have much confident in this thing liao. wonder what is the best way to empty it before repair work.

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## loupgarou

*WARNING*
*you cannot invert a filled co2 cylinder, its apt to vent immediately, and you'll suffer co2 burns in your hands if something goes wrong or an explosion (if you drop it )*
--------

to test for leaks, use soapy water and a sponge, if the leak is at the connecting point between the throttle valve or regulator and the co2, then its just that plastic O ring. basically, the seal is formed from the pressure on the O ring .

----

a proper co2 regulator comes with TWO pressure gauges and possibly a needle valve at the exit point. 

the so called "electric" kind includes a selenoid.

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## hwchoy

some "real" regulator, and expensive one at that, comes with only the external pressure gauge. Bioplast one is like that.

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## loupgarou

bioplast special one lah... anyway, how many people you know using bioplast co2 regulator + cut off valve? its probably out of consideration for most people

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## |squee|

gummynut, I'd release all that CO2 and find a way to dispose of the cylinder. I wouldn't bother to repair it... not worth your time, money and safety.

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## PeterGwee

Further more, I doubt SOXAL would accept repairing non-standard types of cylinders for repair or testing.

Regards
Peter Gwee  :Wink:

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## Justikanz

Hmm... I sent the cylinder for repair and it is ok now leh... Why not you just go for it one last time??

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## gummynut

got the help of forum bro. to mediate on this issue and went to C328 last night. hope that compromise can be achieved and have something done to the tank. wish me luck.

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## gummynut

ok.. sorry for the very late reply. the CO2 tank has been repaired, refilled and returned to me within 3-4 days after i dropped it back at C328. I was grateful that the lady boss got it repaired and more so when she refused any payment. so i consider the whole episode ended positively after all the ups & downs. Thanks again to forum bro. who helped to mediate the whole issue. Thanks to all for the advice and pointers given.
Of course, this time i have tested the thing before leaving the shop.  :Grin:  

Things that have been learnt here that i would like to share.
1. study all items carefully before purchasing. don't rely on the information of the shop owner solely. For newbies, do some homework and don't be shy to post questions, however, ask specifically and intelligently.
2. As usual, good things don't always come cheap. Prepare for some trade-offs. For my case, the cheap CO2 tank leaked after the first refill. Bad luck? Maybe.
3. Check your purchased item before leaving.

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## zhiz22

Actually I was quite impress with c328 service

I once overheard this guy going to the uncle and told him his co2 tank was faulty and needed help. the uncle asked him if he got the tank from him but the guy got it from some other shop

but still the uncle told the guy he could help him by contacting the supplier about the problematic tank.

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