# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Livebearers >  Endler

## Calamari

Hi,

I just noticed a few fries ( about 4 ) hanging around under my Tonina's, and I believe them to be baby endlers. Since they were the only 2 fishes in my tank till i introduced 10 boraras in for company. Any experienced endler keepers here can enlighten me on the usual brood size of them and how big is the fry? The fry I have seems pretty big actually... big enough for the mother to just swim side by side with it. probably slightly smaller than 1 cm i guess...

Another BIG problem is that....... I have HYDRAS...........
 :Rolling Eyes:  well..... I really do not want to touch or do netting unless necessary...... and i guess hydras cant kill 0.7mm fries... Or can they?..
Or they have actually killed all and those 4 are the sole survivors... haha...

Cheers
(Ps: I hate hydras)
Cal Goh

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## timebomb

I have some Endlers' Livebearers in one of my tanks too. I've noticed that the fry are quite big, about the same size as normal Guppy fry.

As for the Hydra in your tanks, it's highly unlikely they can eat Endlers' fry. Hydra isn't a big problem but to eradicate them is difficult. The only effective medication is Flubenzadole (not sure of spelling). You can't buy this over a counter; it's a controlled drug. Some of the guys here might have some to spare though.

Loh K L

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## whuntley

We can get flubendazole, here, from some veterinarians, and it is a sure cure for Hydra.

If you cannot get it, dosing with Formalin (37% formaldehyde) every other day for three doses usually kills them off, without harming the plants or fish.

I vaguely recall it was about 3 drops per 5G, but I'm not sure since it has been a long time since I had the problem. Repeat dosing is mandatory as the formaldehyde is absorbed by organic mulm within a day or two. I find it takes at least three treatments to be effective. Don't do any water changes until it is finished. The first treatment makes them retract into a lump. They come back out the second day, so hit them again. By the third treatment they should be dead. If not, repeat, using a stronger dose.

Since Formalin is carcinogenic and produces harmful fumes, you can get almost the same effect by using one of the better dechloraminators, like Amquel or Prime, at somewhat above the normal doses. [Note that dechlorinators will not have any effect. They are the ones that advertise that they "break the chlorine ammonia bond." Use the kind that binds the ammonium.]

Do remove all snails, shrimp, and other inverts before treating for Hydra, as the things that kill Hydra can do a lot of damage to them. Also, you will kill all infusoria, so the water will be unsuitable for raising babies. Don't feed bbs or other small live foods during treatment. They will die quickly and foul the water.

Copper sulfate also kills Hydra, but does a number on plants and fish, too. I don't like it, and never use it, any more.

I like natural cures, so adding Trichogaster-type Gouramis is a good way to get rid of them (they love to eat Hydra), as is withdrawing all live foods for a week or so. Hydra can only survive with a constant supply of living foods.

They are a lot easier to treat than really harmful pests, like flatworms that devour eggs.

Wright

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## Calamari

Wright,

Do you dose flubendazole with the plants inside? I noticed that they usually hang onto the plants and like to hangout near the current flow area. Maybe its easier for them to net microscopic prey. 

I gotta admit i kinda erred in the cycling process. I had just 2 otos in the tank for 1 week and that was all it took to experience an explosion in the growth of snails and the microscopic little creatures( i saw Scuds, cyclops, planaria, microworms....... and finally the hydras revived.) Actually i know another fish that eats hydras that not has been reported online, that fish is the legendary moss killer SAE. Which wiped the white hydras out in week 1.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions anyway, I think i shall excercise some patience and restrain. Nature usually will solve the problems themselves.

Cheers,
Cal Goh

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## whuntley

> Wright,
> 
> Do you dose flubendazole with the plants inside? I noticed that they usually hang onto the plants and like to hangout near the current flow area. Maybe its easier for them to net microscopic prey.


snip...

Just got my supply of it from Dr. Charles Harrison, but, yes, I would plan to treat the plants as failure to do so would be failure for sure. Probably over 90% of the introduction of Hydra is via new plants. They may be there for a long time until you start to feed bbs or something causes an infusoria bloom. [Wish I had a nickle for every time someone thought they came from Artemia cysts!]

I have a small tank of Spikey Moss that came in from SG with a caution about Glugea, and I plan to treat it with flubendazole before letting any fish be exposed to that water. I believe it is pretty harmless to plants. I never again want to see Glugea in my fishroom. It is *really* nasty.

Wright

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## timebomb

> Actually i know another fish that eats hydras that not has been reported online, that fish is the legendary moss killer SAE. Which wiped the white hydras out in week 1.


You're sure about this, Cal? If you're right, it would be a good way to eradicate Hydra. 

As Wright has pointed out, you have to treat the plants as well. In other words, dose the whole tank. Not only that, dose all your tanks. If you have Hydra in one tank, chances are they are in all in your tanks. Hydra can cling to anything, even snails. Here's a picture I took a while back:



Loh K L

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## Calamari

Hahaha, Yes ! I saw that picture in real life in my tank and I did something cruel to that snail. Regarding the SAE part, i cannot be 100% sure, but i remember seeing little whitish umbrellas in my tank in week 1, when i introduced some plants into my tank. That thing populated rather rapidly inside an empty tank and there was quite a huge patch on the glass, i previously thought those were algae, then i introduced the SAE's in. (I didnt feed them for the whole week). It was just in 2 days when the whole patch was reduced to only a few little umbrellas. So, IF Little white umbrella = the Current Green and Pink Umbrellas( the baby hydras) then I think its true, otherwise if there are white umbrellaish algae types, then I think I am wrong. Anyways, hope I'm right.

Damn hydra may be pretty small but it sure has really long tentacles. I just crushed a few that had super long tentacles. By the way, if the treatment is executed, the more fragile affected plants get (executed) too?


Regards,
Cal

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## timebomb

Cal,

Unless you actually saw the SAE eating the Hydra, your experience cannot be counted as conclusive evidence. The thing we know about Hydra, many or all of them will disappear if you don't feed any food into the tank. But they are there even if you don't see them. 

As far as I know, your plants won't come to any harm. I've used Flubendazole on many occasions in my planted tanks and no plant died from the medication.

Loh K L

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## Calamari

> Cal,
> 
> Unless you actually saw the SAE eating the Hydra, your experience cannot be counted as conclusive evidence. The thing we know about Hydra, many or all of them will disappear if you don't feed any food into the tank. But they are there even if you don't see them. 
> 
> As far as I know, your plants won't come to any harm. I've used Flubendazole on many occasions in my planted tanks and no plant died from the medication.
> 
> Loh K L


Yea Mr Loh,

You're right, i got carried away. Anyway its great to hear that the treatment wouldn't affect he plants.  :Laughing:  In that case, can relax already. 

 :Wink:  
Cal

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## Calamari

Update:

After rescaping and throwing away all the duckweeds(which have loads of hydras clinging onto the roots), hydras have all disappeared. I ran through maybe 10+ LFS, but none of them have flubendazole or fenbandazole, therefore i proceeded to tear down my tank first to search for the root of the problem.

Problems
No.1 Duckweeds : They seem to die of automatically and rotting occurs which feeds the microorganisms.
No.2 Driftwoods : This is a problem I didn't expect to occur. I removed all mosses and ferns from their woods and noticed that many of the woods have started to decay very rapidly(meaning I was able to scrape parts of the wood directly off the piece of wood). Lastly I noticed a lot of soil under the rhizomes of the fern between the wood and the roots. The soil was probably the prime cause for the microorganism explosion.
No.3 Filtration : I installed an OHF. I guess filtration should be abl to clear the stuff that the microorganism feed on.

Low Microorganisms -- > Lower hydra poulations.

Hopefully it will help those who faced the same problems  :Cool:  . Endler mom gave brith to 8 new fries again.

By the way, is my endler strain "Orange". Anyone can help identify?

Cal

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## stoker

Hi all

the site for FLUBENOL is http://www.flubenol.co.uk

This is the UK site but it may help

Best Mike  :Very Happy:

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## whuntley

We cannot get flubendazole here from any normal retail source. Some can get it, or its cousin fenbendazole, from their veterinarian. I think the former is better for aquaria because it is more water soluble.

Here we all get it from Dr. Charles Harrison, a chemist from St Louis. He gets it in bulk from the chemical supply house, then sells small packets to those killinuts who need it.

Wright

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## stoker

Yea I know that Wright , but the product that Charles Harrison sells is that the one that is used as a pig wormer? this product is the aquatic version of that , and appears not to require a perscription, but can be bought over the counter, If you WANT any more INFO pm me and we can sort out something.


Mike  :Very Happy:

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## whuntley

No, the animal wormer is fenbendazole, a similar compound but much less soluble than what I get from Charles. Either works but flubendazole is way more soluble so more reliable for dosing control.

Wright

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## stoker

Ok Wright

I always get them mixed up, so that has helped clear this up; many thanks

Mike

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