# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Killifish >  Killie companions - Breeding the Pseudomugil gertrudae

## RonWill

Hi folks,

I've had _Pseudomugil gertrudae_ self-propagating in a permanent setup at my old home but after the house move, I had a tough time acquiring these again. Some LFS didn't stock them simply because they won't sell... hobbyists tend to bypass these understated jewels.

Jian Yang got wind of my search and pointed out to a LFS source in *Pseudomugil/popondetta? gertrudae* thread and even he managed to get a spawn in *Non killie- Spotted Blue-eye fry*.

Working with the _gertrudae_ isn't difficult. Condition them well and they'll group-spawn readily in floating mops.

Here's one of my breeder males


One can either water incubate the whole mop in round takeaway containers or pick out the eggs, which will show rapid embryol development and hatching out within 7~10 days.

Look at my recent 'harvest'...
 

Upon hatching, the fry are free-swimming quickly and hugs the water surface. This makes them easy to scoop out with a plastic chinese soup spoon and are transferred to a grow-out tray.

The fry do well in infusoria soup or with moderate feeding directly from a paramecium culture and will take newly hatched BBS by the 3rd day.

Beside _gertrudae_ fry, I've ANNs and Cherry shrimplets growing together [just make sure that the ANNs are smaller as they'll predate on smaller tankmates]

Grow-out tray with moss, najas and floaters


Treat the gertrudae right and they'll reward you with prolific spawns. In addition to the 2 trays of fry, there's another that's incubating, plus about 150 eggs being shipped to the USA in breathers.

Bill will be receiving his packed such;

Keeping weight down, I resized the breather bag with a hot-sealer unit meant for vacuum-packing in the kitchen :wink: 


The filter floss wrapping each 'sachet' ensures unrestricted gaseous exchange and acts as a 'shock absorber'.


An old audio cassette case... what better way to protect the content and to recycle my junk?

I'm sure some of you are wondering why _gertrudae_ is being discussed in the Killie section. Simple. Gertrudaes are excellent killifish companions at any given size and have taken to having them with all the killies I raise.

They make the timid less so, the picky-eaters to pigs and add life and contrast to the tanks. The only down side I can think of would be finding their eggs in killie mops  :Rolling Eyes:

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## whuntley

Ron,

There is a well-accepted term in the hobby for what you are doing with the Blue-Eyes. It is called "dither fish."

One of my favorite dithers is the so-called "Mosquito Fish," _Heterandria formosa_. It is called that because of its size and the barring on their tiny sides that looks a bit like the markings on some species of mosquito. [It isn't very good at eating mosquito larvae, as it is too small.] It is also called "Least Killifish" but that is a misnomer for they are livebearers.

They are not at all like that other "Mosquito Fish" the erroneously introduced Damnbusia, who are vicious baby and egg predators, and who hardly ever eat mossie larvae.

Good dither fish don't much eat killy eggs or babies, but help create a feeding frenzy that will get the most recalcitrant species to eat dry foods.

_H. formosa_ are really nice in that they don't eat their young and that makes them a great fish for a child's first tank. They are too tiny to have batches of babies, like guppies or mollys. Instead, momma drops one a day for about 20-30 days. As the babies grow, they are easily distinguished by size and a tank with one fertilized female will have a perfect staircase of sizes after a little while.  :Very Happy: 

Our fellow forum member, B. G. Granier is sending me some from Louisiana (where they are native), for the daughter of the local CA Fish and Game biologist. She is an avid aquarist at age nine. 

Some strains (like BG's) have a strong black eyespot in the dorsal, with a brilliant red-orange off-center surround. Once thought to be the world's smallest vertebrates, there are about 6 species of goby that now have beaten them for that title. They are still the smallest fresh-water fish you are likely to encounter. The pic in Baensch 1 is of a strain that lacks the pretty red splash in the dorsal. They are an interesting little fish, with or without the red. A big female will get to be a bit over 1.5" long. Males are usually about 3/4".

Like _gertrudae_, they may be almost too small for dithers with many grown killies as they might be eaten by anything as big as GAR. Great for getting young fish to feed, though, and for getting shy fish out front where you can see them.

I'd like to try them with _Aphyo. celiae celiae_ to see if they can bring that very beautiful but ultra-shy fish out of hiding.

Another pretty good dither fish is that smaller, but near-guppy, the Endler's Livebearer. [It does, however, eat eggs and babies, I suspect.]

Wright

PS. I love _gertrudae_. They are a truly beautiful little fish.

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## TyroneGenade

I got some _Ps. gertrudae_ Jones Road N Queensland from a nameless friend in Australia a while back. They were lovely little fish!!! and very proliffic. They were mainly white with yellow chest. I wouldn't mind having them again. These really are under rated little fish. In fact all the _Pseudomugils_ are just super little fish.

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## RonWill

Wright, although somewhat demeaning for a pretty little fish, the term 'dither' is correct. 'Companion' sounds much kinder.

IIRC, _Heterandria formosa_ were never seen in LFS here. I may be wrong tho and could have walked past their tank, thinking them to be feeder guppies. Judging from your description, if it leave eggs and fry alone, these 'Least Killifish' are neat to have in grow out tanks too.

When you can get a sizeable number of BG's strain going, let's practice packing these 'swimming eggs' in breathers. I'd like to see if they can establish themselves in my tanks too.




> Another pretty good dither fish is that smaller, but near-guppy, the Endler's Livebearer. [It does, however, eat eggs and babies, I suspect.]


The pair of Endler from Nonn>KL>Jian Yang was gravid for a long time without throwing a single fry. It's now with a guppy friend to see if he has better luck with them [last I heard, they're still a childless couple]

Wright, if you like the _gertrudae_ as much as I do, email me your addy (Tyrone too) and I'll zap some your way... might as well, since these Blue-eyes are the only thing that's prolific at the moment.

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## ruyle

Ronnie, that's a nice pic of P. gertrudae! The fry look quite small, so green
water injections for the first few days upon hatching? The Aquabidder you
mentioned sells rainbow eggs by simply bagging up the mop and shipping
to the auction winner. Wow, large hatches indeed!

Are you still interested in P. tennellus? I'll check on it after the rather large
SAA order gets accomplished. :wink:

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## TyroneGenade

The _gertrudae_ fry if I recall correctly are quite big. They can take small bbs from hatching and if that fails they do perfectly well on powder flake food.

RonWill, I am very much inclined to take you up on your offer... but right now don't have anywhere to put them:-( Maybe later (unless I can get some F1 stuff from Australia). My contact is threatening to send me stuff...

tt4n

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## RonWill

Bill, green water works for most fry, so it won't hurt but paramecium would be better. Lacking which, micro organisms from an infusoria culture will speed up fry size to BBS.

As for that 'Aquabidder' (or was it seller?), I don't recall him shipping mops but hell yes, if he does, I'm all game. IMHO, the _tenellus_ looks prettier and it'll give me something to do while the SAA incubates.

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## RonWill

Tyrone, the _gertrudae_ fry aren't small or as tiny, compared to Scarlet badis or _Spectrolebias semioccelatus_. Any experienced breeder should breeze through them. I couldn't get a grip on the 3 SMO fry and lost them.

Let me know when you're ready for 'em Blue-eyes (provided they still spawn as wildly) and do update us when you open the goodie box from down-under.

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## stormhawk

Correction Ron, I've never owned the gertrudaes before. turaco aka Gan did and he was the one who had a spawning from them.  :Laughing:  

Just to add, there's still several female gertrudaes at Choong Sua, if your males are looking for extra mates. :wink:

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## RonWill

Jian Yang, I need new glasses  :Opps:  and going through the linked threads, yes, it was Gan... but where're the fry updates?

I've no need for more gertrudaes... whatever I have now are in an orgasmic frenzy  :Twisted Evil:

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## RonWill

Wright & Bill,
The gertrudae eggs were sent around Sept 8th via regular Air and wondered if you guys have received anything. Thinking back, I shouldn't have sent anything to the USA nearing 9/11.

Anyway, this feedback arrived from Colorado... _"The eggs arrived, they had hatched 100% on route. There were 6 fry altogether still alive, 1 in each of the 9/2/04 bags and 4 in the 9/6 bag. They are now in their little container with some Microworms, they are swimming strongly so I think they will survive"_.

My response to that...



> > The Pseudomugil species have a much shorter incubation time than most
> > non-annual killies, which makes them perfect to test survival rate in
> > breather bags via _regular_ Air mail.
> > 
> > Three things may resolve the high casualty rate that Lorraine
> > experienced. I believe they are;
> > First, I would suspect that the eggs will do better when freshly
> > collected instead of those that have started, or are in advanced 
> > embryol development. Second, being a larger volume of water
> ...


If you both experienced high fry-casualty, I'll revamp the packing and try again. Suggestions?

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## whuntley

> Wright & Bill,
> The gertrudae eggs were sent around Sept 8th via regular Air and wondered if you guys have received anything. Thinking back, I shouldn't have sent anything to the USA nearing 9/11.
> 
> Anyway, this feedback arrived from Colorado... _"The eggs arrived, they had hatched 100% on route. There were 6 fry altogether still alive, 1 in each of the 9/2/04 bags and 4 in the 9/6 bag. They are now in their little container with some Microworms, they are swimming strongly so I think they will survive"_.
> 
> My response to that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mine obviously arrived yesterday, and I didn't think to check the mail box. We had our first freeze, last night, so any survivors probably were killed by that. I dunked and will check again in case any more hatch, but it doesn't look good. Both 9/6 and 9/10 bags had both dead hatched babies and unhatched eggs, most with fungus.

They are warming up now and I'll give a squirt of green water, shortly. Maybe microworms later.

I have our mail-delivery lady conditioned to leave anything marked "perishable" at the post office and call me for pick up. [She didn't notice the small fish-egg listing on the green sheet. I forgot to check yesterday's mail.  :Crying:  ]

There were quite a few fungused eggs, so those must have died earlier.

I would suggest less eggs per pack, bigger water packets, a teeny bit of "Amquel" o/e (eggs produce ammonium, too) and a "PERISHABLE" stamp on the envelope.

I would have checked the mailbox for sure if I had known when the eggs were shipped. It is about 1/4 mile down the road so usually only gets checked as I drive in or out.

The plants look great, BTW. Did you have a name for this floater? It is new to me. Looks ideal for breeding fish like ANN (lots and lots of thick roots).

Wright

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## RonWill

Wright,
How's the weather forecast for next week? Winter's coming kinda early isn't it?

Let me check on the gertrudaes tomorrow and see if they're still at it. A polystyrene box might fair better this time with a bigger reserve of water. Still, 12 days via Air is a tad slow.




> I would suggest less eggs per pack, bigger water packets, a teeny bit of "Amquel" o/e (eggs produce ammonium, too) and a "PERISHABLE" stamp on the envelope


 It escapes me but what's 'o/e' again? Any suggestion what would be a favorable egg count per bag?




> The plants look great, BTW. Did you have a name for this floater? It is new to me. Looks ideal for breeding fish like ANN (lots and lots of thick roots).


 Yes and no. It's a Salvina sp. but can't say which one. This floater gets my vote for most plant-spawners.

BTW, just saw Ivan's trail of damage passing through Alabama, on the night news. Hope Bill's holding ok there.

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## whuntley

> Wright,
> How's the weather forecast for next week? Winter's coming kinda early isn't it?
> 
> Let me check on the gertrudaes tomorrow and see if they're still at it. A polystyrene box might fair better this time with a bigger reserve of water. Still, 12 days via Air is a tad slow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We just had a sudden cold snap. Our weather is usually mild and warm until about the end of Oct. or early Nov. when the storms start dropping in from the gulf of Alaska. There are some excellent Pacific Satellite sites that can show our incoming weather very well. It should be warmer today and getting up to a bit hot by next week. LMK and I'll point out a site to watch.

Actually I think it was 11 days, but that's still slow. Could have arrived here on Sat., which would have been more like 8-9 days. Still slow. I had no idea when they were to arrive.

o/e is shorthand for "or equivalent." Sorry.

For the tiny bags you used, 6-10 might work better. Bigger bags could hold more, but the first one to die starts to foul the water so more water is safer but more expensive. From the good condition of the bodies, I think I really froze these, though the water never actually got down to ice temps. The mailboxes are sheltered, but I saw ice along the nearby alfalfa field sprinklers when I came back from our hike this morning (about 10AM).

I have to make a trip to Tijuana MX to get drugs and to see my mother and step-father, maybe next week, so please coordinate with me on expected arrival dates if you are going to try again. I might not be here. We will also have our fall DSAC trip to Ash Meadows to work on pupfish habitat on Oct. 7-9, so will be gone then, too. After that might be better.

Thanks Ron and apologies for messing up and not checking my box, yesterday.

Wright

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## ruyle

Hi Ron,
Home early from work, not feeling well, and no eggs in the mail yet. Will
let you know when they arrive.

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## nonamethefish

In my experience, Heterandria don't deliver one baby each day. They come in batches apparently, but far less uniform and smaller than those of, say, a guppy. It would be interesting to seperate a single female and observe and see what happens. The strain I keept(From Florida) laos has the red spot on the dorsal. I noticed a goo way to sex these fish when small is that at some point in time, the female will develop a black spot mirroring the dorsal spot(but without the red) on her anal fin. The young males, who's anal fins will soon become gonopodiums, lack the spots.

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## stormhawk

Ron, here's my views on getting higher survival rates when shipping eggs in breather bags:

1) Like Wright has mentioned, a little squirt of a water conditioner like Amquel would help to reduce ammonia problems. There's something called Bag Buddies? or something like that. Supposed to reduce ammonia during shipping.

2) Reduction in number of eggs per bag. The ones you sent in those bag sizes would be adequate for having about a dozen eggs per bag. More would result in the hatching fry competing for the available O2. Whether the bags are permeable enough to allow enough O2 to pass through is another question. Death rates would certainly be increased should a single fry or egg die in the packet during transit, especially in overcrowded situations. (Remember you sent fishes as one-per-bag in the shipment to Tom?)

3) Insulation with a Heatpack or some other insulation materials may help to reduce effects of differing temperatures, especially when sending to colder regions. Placing the sachets/packets in a modified styrofoam box like the one you made for Tom would be a better bet since styro insulates and cushions impact at the same time.

4) Time is of essence when sending mature eggs therefore a faster service like SpeedPost or FedEx would ensure that the fry that hatch enroute do not die during the long holding time in mail centres. (You know it all too well with regards to killie eggs)

I don't have any experience in sending live eggs via post in breathers but garnered the information from your previous attempt at sending live fishes via post to Tom aka blinkytom in the UK. If I recall correctly they were sent by the fastest local mail service - SpeedPost - and the fishes survived the journey quite well. Was it 4 days from SG to UK? 

And talking about Tom, did he send anything back in return?  :Rolling Eyes:  If he did then that would have determined the shipping "window" for a successful live delivery back and forth, in this case from Asia to Europe and back again. 

Normal air mail to the States and Europe takes about 10-12 days as I've found out previously. Registered mail may take even longer. Worst part is when we send out the mail close to the weekends. The package will sit in the holding centres for the weekends until the next available flight comes up and the mail is sent out. Thats why some people mail the eggs on a Monday to ensure that it doesn't sit in holding centres for too long, especially over weekends.

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## ruyle

As expensive as Fedex is, I don't expect Ronnie to send them that way. I
may have to wait till Thailand for these. If Wright got his eggs Monday, I
may not get these till Thursday, the 23rd. We've been experiencing temps
down to 48 degrees in the morning (what it is right now) but rises to the 
low 80s every day. I don't hold much hope for the eggs  :Sad:  But want to
thank Ronnie for trying!

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## TyroneGenade

A little trick I learnt from Mach Fukada but forgot about... shipping the eggs in 1/2 strength sea water will delay development in most _Pseaudomugil_. Mach also sends the eggs attached to the threads they were laid on in breathing bags. 

tt4n

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## RonWill

Wright & Bill, I learn by trying hence no need for thanks. As far as I'm concerned, goodwill is reciprocal.

Bill's package was in the mail with one to Colorado and the other to Pennsylvania.

Wright's package was sent a day or two later. I don't know how USPS route their mail but it first arrived at Colorado and then, Bishop CA. Bill and the chap at PA have yet to receive theirs  :Confused:  

Since winter isn't 'due', I wasn't prepared for such temperature fluctuations (48~80ºF = 8.9~26ºC  :Exclamation:  ) and insulation took a back seat (I should have used the polyfoam Hikari box).

For those who are in the dark, Bill's eggs were packed and protected with a audio cassette case, similar to the package that went to Colorado.
 

Wright's eggs were in film canisters with part of the lid snipped off for the eggs/fry to breathe.
 More pics *here*.

Tyrone, what is the SG for 1/2 strength seawater? I'll try that in a 2nd shipment and thanks for sharing the tip.

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## whuntley

> In my experience, Heterandria don't deliver one baby each day. They come in batches apparently, but far less uniform and smaller than those of, say, a guppy. It would be interesting to seperate a single female and observe and see what happens.


I have done that, more than once, and she does drop about 1 per day, so you have a definite staircase of sizes as they grow out. I agree it would be very hard to tell if several females were at work in the same tank.

Wright

Now, back to your regularly-scheduled gertrudae thread.  :Smile:

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## whuntley

> snip...
> Since winter isn't 'due', I wasn't prepared for such temperature fluctuations (48~80ºF = 8.9~26ºC  ) and insulation took a back seat (I should have used the polyfoam Hikari box).
> 
> snipagain...
> 
> Wright's eggs were in film canisters with part of the lid snipped off for the eggs/fry to breathe.
> 
> 
> Tyrone, what is the SG for 1/2 strength seawater? I'll try that in a 2nd shipment and thanks for sharing the tip.


Not Tyrone, but I use 1.010 to 1.015, as I recall, for "50%" sea water SG if full strength is 1.024.

Our temperature here, varies from blistering in summer to cold enough to turn little boys into little girls in winter.  :Very Happy:  This time of year, afternoons will be between 90 and 100F while at night it will go down to 45-55 or so. Our recent cold snap held daytimes to about 69F and nights were down to 32F (0C). It's slowly going back up, and our "official" temperature right now is 81F as we approach the cocktail hour. Maximum summer temperature might be 115F. I remember a very cold snap one winter, when I used to live here, that stayed below freezing for over a week and went below 0F every night (-10F max.).

The breather bag in filter medium in a film cannister was really clever packaging. Care to share how you seal the bags with water up tight against the sealing seam? Must be a trick to it. If you have ever tried to solder a copper-pipe joint with any water in it, you know what I mean.

Wright

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## felixe

Beautiful fish.  :Very Happy:  
Actually, I've been searched for the _P. cyanodorsalis_  for my brackish tank, but... 
Well... perhaps, I'm going to change my mind soon or later.  :Rolling Eyes:  :wink: 

_H. heterandra_... 
My single female(from Czech ?) bore 6 fry in a day, on the last of this May,
and finally her baby bore their fry again a few days ago. 
This time was only one fry, because of their half size comparing with the late mammy.  :Smile:

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## whuntley

> Beautiful fish.  
> Actually, I've been searched for the _P. cyanodorsalis_  for my brackish tank, but... 
> Well... perhaps, I'm going to change my mind soon or later.  :wink:


Mach Fukada of Hawaii used to have a lovely strain that he kept going for a very long time. I gave mine away when I shut down my fishroom in Fremont, as I recall. Maintaining brackish species is a PITA, unless you have several. Guess I should look for _cyanodorsalis_ and _Pantanodon stuhlmanni_ (my favorite Lampeye), since I already have the special needs of _Kryptolebias marmoratus_ to plague me. ::smt021:  




> _H. heterandra_... 
> My single female(from Czech ?) bore 6 fry in a day, on the last of this May,
> and finally her baby bore their fry again a few days ago. 
> This time was only one fry, because of their half size comparing with the late mammy.


I think mature females can hold back "birth" a bit until they are too full or otherwise ready to drop. My experience is that the one-a-day births are the more normal ones. YMMV.

Contact me off line if you need to reach Mach. With today's SPAM bots, I do not post anyone's addy to a public forum, like this, even semi-encrypted.

Wright

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## RonWill

> Care to share how you seal the bags with water up tight against the sealing seam? Must be a trick to it


No trick, Wright, just practice. I was using the hot sealer meant for vacuum-packing perishable grocery. Took more than a few trys tho, to get it the way I wanted it. Only worry was crimping eggs within the 'sachets'.

Forgot to ask... with eggs, where do the ammonium come from?

 

My *first trial with breather bags* was a shipment to Tom in the UK. The album link is *here*.

[Tom, did you attend the BKA auction? Won any goodies?]

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## RonWill

> Actually, I've been searched for the _P. cyanodorsalis_  for my brackish tank, but... 
> Well... perhaps, I'm going to change my mind soon or later


Kim, I'm glad you're still with us :wink: 

If you missed the "*WTB: Pseudomugil species*" thread, the Blue-backed blue-eyes [_Pseudomugil cyanodorsalis_] is one of the species I'm looking forward to observe, enjoy and breed. The other _Pseudomugil_ that interest me are;

Honey Blue-eye [_Pseudomugil mellis_] 
Popondetta Blue-eye [_Pseudomugil connieae_] 
Pacific Blue-eye [_Pseudomugil signifer_] 
Delicate Blue-eye [_Pseudomugil tenellus_] 

Maintaining a brackish tank just for _cyanodorsalis_ may sound troublesome but it's helluva good excuse to get me some _Lamprichthys tanganicanus_ ! :wink: 

Wright, if Mach still has the _cyanodorsalis_ going, I'd love to get in touch with him. Drop me an email if you're wary of spam trolls.

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## whuntley

> ...Forgot to ask... with eggs, where do the ammonium come from?...


Metabolizing the yolk to grow into a larva. Eggs are alive and undergoing constant metabolic change, much like what happens after they hatch. Ammonium is the main nitrogenous waste. Most probably from the yolk.

My nose is too old to be that sensitive, but Tyrone claims he can smell it on eggs that have shipped in a closed container. If it is that strong and pH is much above about 6.5, it's probably harmful.

Wright

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## felixe

> I think mature females can hold back "birth" a bit until they are too full or otherwise ready to drop.


I gree with you.  :Smile:  




> Kim, I'm glad you're still with us :wink:


I'm still with you. Thanks. :wink: 
(It is not a pice of cake for me to write a comment in English, though. :sad: )




> Maintaining a brackish tank just for _cyanodorsalis_ may sound troublesome but it's helluva good excuse to get me some _Lamprichthys tanganicanus_ ! :wink: 
> ...
> Wright, if Mach still has the _cyanodorsalis_ going, I'd love to get in touch with him. Drop me an email if you're wary of spam trolls.


I have started to change my plant tank to native-reef tank. 
Brackish tank is planed for my little mangroves and other small creatures.

Comparing with other tanganikans, _Lamprichthys tanganicanus_ were somewhat rare and too expensive in this country.
Thanks for the internet, a member of our club started them about a week ago, with eggs.  :Smile:  

I'd love to get in touch with him too, soon.  :Very Happy:

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## stormhawk

Ron, just so you know, on occasions some of our local (SG) importers of African Rift Lake cichlids will have a shipment of adult wild-caught _Lamprichthys tanganicanus_ along with an assorted range of wild-caught Malawis and Tanganyikan cichlids. Sometimes they'll even have some rare oddballs for sale.

I've seen such ads before (on other local forums) and I believe I saw these _Lamprichthys_ for sale once. Usually large adults and on occasions some juveniles will be offered for sale. Most of the time, they do come with location codes like most of the other cichlids. :wink:

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## whuntley

Rift lake fishes are in mineralized water, but the salinity is way too low to consider it brackish, IMHO.

The biggy is magnesium salts must be way high, but they seem to need a lot of alkalinity, too.

This, of course, is from one who flunked with _tanganicus_ by missing exactly one water change. Heavy-feeding active fish in water at a pH of 9 tend to suffer quickly from ammonia.

Wright

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## stormhawk

Apart from that, they're schooling species that may require quite a pretty large tank and loads of swimming space. Pretty boisterous species as far as I know but they're easily available here in Singapore. 

Wright, I believe if we keep this species just like how we keep the Rift Lake "chicklets" it shouldn't be too difficult right? I have some expert "chicklet" keeper friends and they've always emphasised on the need for clean water because these fellas are shit machines.  :Laughing:

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## ruyle

> I have some expert "chicklet" keeper friends and they've always emphasised on the need for clean water because these fellas are shit machines.


Jian Yang, I believe the "euphemization button" on your keyboard is
broken  :Laughing:   :Laughing:

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## whuntley

> Apart from that, they're schooling species that may require quite a pretty large tank and loads of swimming space. Pretty boisterous species as far as I know but they're easily available here in Singapore. 
> 
> Wright, I believe if we keep this species just like how we keep the Rift Lake "chicklets" it shouldn't be too difficult right? I have some expert "chicklet" keeper friends and they've always emphasised on the need for clean water because these fellas are shit machines.


Correct.

They need lots of free swimming room because they are hyperactive. That also means they are heavy eaters so they are fecal generators, big time.

Two big considerations:

The first of the two is that the bulk of their output is ammonium and not (as they say in Russia) tshidt.

The second is that ammonium ions are quite harmless, in large amounts, at pH of 6.5. 

As the pH goes up, the fraction of that harmless ammonium (NH4+) that becomes toxic ammonia (NH3) increases to about 50X as much at a pH of 9 as at 7.

The highly buffered Rift Lake water is fine in an enormous lake with just a few fishes around the edge. It can be a quick disaster in a tiny amount, like a little 100G tank. The fishkeeper must be very sensitive to that and monitor water conditions very carefully.

I believe you moss-oriented guys can cause a revolution in keeping Rift Lake fishes, by introducing plants like Java moss that can actually live in that slop, and thereby take care of the ammonia problems that keep a lot of those fish expensive. Just a freely-offered hypothesis, worth every penny, of course.

Wright

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## stormhawk

Wright, would tough plants like java ferns and vallisneria be fine in such conditions? I understand that for brackish tanks, java ferns would be a good choice.

I know some people grow odd plants like the octopus plant, aka Crinum sp. (don't know the name cos' I'm not a plant person). Apparently it can survive in such conditions as well.

I suppose other tough plants like Anubias will do just fine. The only moss that I can think of that can adapt to such conditions would be Java Moss. Perhaps it can take care of that ammonia problem. Some of the cichlid enthusiasts I know actually encourage the growth of certain algae on the rock surfaces in such tanks. Perhaps they might be the answer to the toxic ammonium problem?

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## ruyle

Ronnie, got the eggs and plants today. Thanks much for the plants! As for
the eggs, I have one fry that is miraculously trying to survive its ordeal!

The rest of the eggs look a goner but I emptied the bags in a readied
container anyway (my eyes may have deceived me :wink: )

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## RonWill

Bill, for eggs to take 16 days via Air to reach you is one day too long. I was expecting 10. The incubation for gertrudae is just too short at about 6 days, unless I tweak the packing water to half-sea strength to delay hatching.

Will check on the mops tomorrow and if there's sufficient eggs, I'll send them off to you & Wright. My Colorado friend will wait till the next batch.

You guys need more 'bearded' floaters? [must remember to pack in the plastic soup spoons... keep forgetting  :Opps:  ]

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## whuntley

Hi Ron,

I'll be in Mexico early next week, which should be no problem, but the following week will be out of town from the 8th until the 10th for the Fall work party at Ash Meadows, where we work on pupfish habitat and get to see the endangered Dace and Pupfish (including _Cyprinodon diabolis_ the Devil's Hole Pupfish). http://www.pupfish.net/dsac/

If you mark the package prominently with "PERISHABLE" my postal delivery lady will call me and leave it in the Post Office so it does not ride around in a hot truck all morning. It may freeze at night, but still gets up to 35C or more in the afternoon. OK? From the feel, boxes in her truck get hotter than that!

I just got word I should be getting about 8 of the colorful German strain of ANN Monrovia. Early production will be promised to the AKA New and Rare Species Committee (join to get on their list  :Very Happy: ), but eventually I hope to produce plenty for all. These are the ones with the red pectorals, ventrals and anal fins, with blue in the dorsal. Bright yellow and chocolate brown to black vertical stripes. There is a fair pic of this strain on p 19 of Radda and Purzl. They are considerably more spectacular than some of the strains with clear pects and less-colorful fins, IMHO.

Monrovia is a bad location name, for that is just the point of export. They are collected from all over. To distinguish these, the last time we had them here in CA, I called them Monrovia Red.

Wright

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## RonWill

Wright,
I'm dropping off a box of gertrudae eggs later. These were handpicked by Gan (Turaco) when he visited me [it was dusk and I couldn't see].

A pinch of salt, plus a touch of 'Japanese yellow powder', was added to their incubation water and hopefully, that will delay hatching.

Increased water volume but Gan & I didn't count the eggs. The pack with brown yarn was collected Sep 24th, green on 26th.

 
It's foam-lined, lest Bishop experience another 'cold snap'.

Now, about that Monrovia Red. Dammit, you're really teasing me aren't cha? However, if and when the Reds are in hand, then I'm praying hard to be in the queue. [IMHO, we're missing the big picture if people join the AKA just to be in NRSC and get hold of new fishes]

Do update how you get on with the 2nd package and the incoming Reds.

Bill, I'll be waiting for Wright's feedback before sending 2nd pack to you, together with one to Colorado.

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## TyroneGenade

> I just got word I should be getting about 8 of the colorful German strain of ANN Monrovia. Early production will be promised to the AKA New and Rare Species Committee (join to get on their list Very Happy), but eventually I hope to produce plenty for all.


Good news! I will be getting my 2 prs this weekend at the BKA shipped specially for my by a Dutch friend.:-) I of course have no alliegence to the AKA N&RS committee* so I will soon have eggs available for all (who are willing to meet my daft Aquabid prices).  :Twisted Evil:  

*There is no surer way to kill any movement than death by committee. 

tt4n I'm off to the UK (this Wednesday)!

P.S. don't send emails asking for eggs or fish, I'm yet to have the lovelies in my tanks let alone spawn them!

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## ruyle

> Bill, I'll be waiting for Wright's feedback before sending 2nd pack to you, together with one to Colorado.


Ronnie and Wright, I'll keep my fingers crossed! :wink: 

Also Ronnie, the floaters are growing great!  :Very Happy:

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## RonWill

Bill,
Using the last tested 12-day shipping time, I think Wright will receive the new 'salted-eggs' around Oct 12th. I'll be darned if they're still incubating.

If there's room for more floaters, let me know.

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## ruyle

Always got room for floaters, Ronnie. If you could, send me one of those
plants that look like miniature water lettuce. I'd like to see how different
it is to the ones I 've got. :wink: I sent a couple of samples of the salvinia
gigantea (till we know its name) to a killie show on the west coast along
with some trios of A. splendopleure Ombe River 99. Great plant for the
baby tanks :wink:

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## RonWill

> If you could, send me one of those plants that look like miniature water lettuce


Consider it done.

Bill, those un-ID'ed floater morphed to another form but this occurs only in one particular tank. You'll be surprised (maybe not) to see the size and shape of new leaf-form.




> ...with some trios of A. splendopleure Ombe River 99


Way to go! The sub-genus _Chromaphysemion_ is somewhat of an acquired taste. Colors are subtle when not flaring or spawning. IME, these are somewhat shy killies, like my BIV 'Funge'. Do I adore 'em? ya bet!

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## TyroneGenade

::smt022:  

I got 2 lovely prs of _Ps. annulatus_ Monrovia Red at the BKA and they both died on the way back to Pisa!!! Why them? Why not the _amieti_ instead?...

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## RonWill

Tyrone, sorry to hear about the ANN Reds. Was looking forward to you sending us some images. Hopefully, someone near you have them also.

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## TyroneGenade

Only Jan Hoetmar and the silly Dutch authorities won't allow fish to be sent by post and don't think Jan will be picking eggs. Oh well... I'll pick some up next year.

tt4n

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## stormhawk

Tyrone, I don't see how silly a government of another nation can appear to someone who's not even a citizen of that nation. You can always get them fish at a later date, no need for going through with the blame game just because you can't get some now. 

By the way, this thread was meant for _Pseudomugil_ so let's go too far off-topic.  :Smile:

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## TyroneGenade

I wasn't blaming anyone... just pointing out that Jan Hoermar is the only person in Europe I know has the fish and he can't send fish here because of state restrictions and the getting eggs was unlikely. And that given this I would have to wait till next year before I can track some down from Jan or someone esle...

As far as off topic goes, sorry.  :Opps:

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## whuntley

Hi,

I was off to the desert on one of my periodic work trips to do exotic removal, pupfish and dace habitat maintenance, etc. When I arrived home Sat. about 8PM, there was a message on my answering machine that I had fish from SG at the post office on Friday morning! Arghhhh!!! as Snoopy says.

Ronnie had sent me another batch of _gertrudae_ eggs at the worst possible time, for I had left for Ash Meadows and Devil's Hole on Thursday morning.

The PO is closed on Sun., so I showed up bright and early on Monday to discover it was the "Columbus Day" holiday and the PO was still closed.  :Crying: 

I was about ready to post a wail to the Chill-Out forum, but decided to wait until this morning and see what I actually have. At least they spent the last 4 days in the relatively benign atmosphere of the post office, and not on a loading dock in Anchorage.

Just about all the eggs had hatched in the breather bags, and the earlier collection were 90% dead. The ones collected a couple of days later (Sept. 26th) were mostly lively and well. I have a few (3 or 4) of the first batch struggling, but a lot of the later bunch (16+?) are looking pretty hale and hearty.

I diluted their salty water about 50% with my soft tap water, which brought tds to just under 1000 ppm. To each batch, I added a couple of drops of "Amquel" to quickly wipe out any ammonium buildup. I'll do another 50% dilution this afternoon.

I'm about to go out and get a baby medicine dropper full of my thick green water (_Euglena_ species), and give them their first feeding. I'll try a couple of bbs later today, but suspect they may still be too small to handle them. I'll also add some Java Moss (from a Hydra-free tank  :Very Happy: ) and a drop of Liquifry No 1 to build up infusoria for them.

Gotta go, lots of babies to tend, y'know.

Wright

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## ruyle

That's wonderful news, Wright! And yes, I'm damn envious  :Laughing:

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## Piscesgirl

Congrats Wright -- I'm glad some made it! I think I'd probably be on the evening news caught trying to break into the post office :P

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## whuntley

Don't think I didn't pound like crazy on the back door, when I saw lights on inside on Mon.!  :Very Happy: 

Wright

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## Piscesgirl

You'd think someone in there would have a heart  :Sad:

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## whuntley

To be fair, I only saw lights, not people.

When you live in country this gorgeous, you don't waste holidays going to work, IME.

Teena and I went for a 4 mile hike along the canals south of town this morning, and the crisp fall air was a delightful relief from the hot weather we have had all summer. To be more exact, I hiked about 3.6 miles while she ran 15 and swam at least 2 miles. [Soaking wet britches are a unique experience in crisp fall air.  :Very Happy: ]

THEN I went to the PO and picked up Ronnie's package.  :Very Happy: 

There are so many babies, I think I'll move them to a shoebox this evening. I worry about feeding in a container too large, but green water doesn't cause much fouling problem, and they seem really active. They like the surface a lot, so I'm hesitant to try microworms on them. If I had vinegar eels I'd feed then in an instant. I need to look for some small ramshorn snails to add to their container. Any remaining unhatched eggs (if there are any) can resist those better than Malaysian trumpet snails.

Wright

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## RonWill

> The PO is closed on Sun., so I showed up bright and early on Monday to discover it was the "Columbus Day" holiday and the PO was still closed.


Murphy's 101 Law applies but I'm glad that some managed to say alive. From the Sept. 26th collection, were there many casualties as well?

_Pseudomugil_'s incubation is really too short but I can't help wondering if a dryer shipping environment would have been better. Let's play 'what if'.

Say I collect the mop after 2 days in the breeding tank. Give it a quick dip into a salt/acriflavin bath. Drip dry, pack and send it out... how would you rate our chances? So Bill, envy not... you get both wet and dry, as will my friend in Colorado... I'm determined to get it done right  :Confused:  




> I diluted their salty water about 50% with my soft tap water, which brought tds to just under 1000 ppm. To each batch, I added a couple of drops of "Amquel" to quickly wipe out any ammonium buildup. I'll do another 50% dilution this afternoon.


 What was the TDS reading straight out of the bag? I'm expecting live-fishes and this TDS issue is something I'll hold close to heart, for now anyway, but we'll dicuss this further in the other thread.

I don't understand how will Amquel help now, since the bag is opened and local water added. Was dilution via slow drip or... ?

For the _gertrudae_'s first food, infusoria and stuff found in green water is more appropriately sized but how would you know that the "thick green water" is _Euglena_ species?

Good luck Wright, I'll be looking forward to more good news.

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## ruyle

> I diluted their salty water about 50% with my soft tap water, which brought tds to just under 1000 ppm. To each batch, I added a couple of drops of "Amquel" to quickly wipe out any ammonium buildup. I'll do another 50% dilution this afternoon.


Ronnie, if he had used distilled water it would be an initial TDS of just under 2000ppm :wink: Since he has low TDS soft tapwater: maybe 1700-1800ppm TDS?? Only Wright knows for sure  :Smile:  


I want to thank you for all the trouble you are taking to get us these
beautiful fish!  :Very Happy:

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## ruyle

Wright, what will be your target TDS for these little darlings: 150-200ppm?
Higher? Lower? Inquiring minds want to know....  :Smile:  

Ronnie, did you ever get a TDS meter? I still have to get one that goes to
9999ppm. The one I have won't measure saltwater  :Sad:

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## whuntley

> I don't understand how will Amquel help now, since the bag is opened and local water added. Was dilution via slow drip or... ?


Dilution was by adding slightly warmed tap water all at once to approximately double the volume. I used a "finger thermometer" to match temperatures, and tried to have the new water slightly warmer as they were a bit cold as received.

All shipping water will have high ammonium. If pH is very low, no problem. Adding tap water, like mine, is sure to raise pH some, and more ammonium can convert to deadly ammonia. The "Amquel" just assures that it is all tied up and connot burn the babies.

As a general rule, all new fish bags should get a squirt of Amquel (Prime is way too concentrated until you dilute it way down).

Again, as a general guideline, tds change of more than 2X should be avoided. Unless one starts with nearly distilled water (in the shipping bag), a 50% dilution will usually stay within that range. tds is a VERY rough thing, so detailed amounts are of no great concern. I got a reading of about 950 ppm after doubling the volume of shipping water. My tap water is only 85 ppm (essentially distilled compared to your shipping water) so your original tds may have been in the neigborhood of 1800-2000 ppm. My meter only reads to 999 ppm, so I could not measure your water before diluting it. [I really need to find my hygrometer or get a new one!]




> For the _gertrudae_'s first food, infusoria and stuff found in green water is more appropriately sized but how would you know that the "thick green water" is _Euglena_ species?


Several ways. A prime one is that it never settles out, so is some kind of swimming green flagellate, and _Euglena_ is the more likely one. A microscope is needed to be sure, and mine are all packed away.

mas tardes

Wright

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## whuntley

> Wright, what will be your target TDS for these little darlings: 150-200ppm?
> Higher? Lower? Inquiring minds want to know....  
> 
> Ronnie, did you ever get a TDS meter? I still have to get one that goes to
> 9999ppm. The one I have won't measure saltwater


I'll raise nearly all my fish in my tap water. As long as it isn't too low in essential electrolytes (it isn't), as that is the only way to go. Simplifies water changes no end!

9999 still will not read sea water, will it? When I get above 999, I go to specific gravity, and shoot for 1.024 for sea water and 1.010 to 1.015 for 50% sea water (brackish). That's what I have used for _Pantanodons_ and _Ps. cyanodorsalis._

Wright

PS. missed the answer to one of Ron's questions. The Sept. 26 group had essentially no dead that I spotted. All were surviving this AM. Now it is up to me to not kill them, I guess. Count approached 20 this afternoon.

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## ruyle

> 9999 still will not read sea water, will it?


Ummm, doh, I thought it would  :Opps:  Guess I will have to get a hydrometer from the local-yokel winemaking suppliers :wink: 





> PS. missed the answer to one of Ron's questions. The Sept. 26 group had essentially no dead that I spotted. All were surviving this AM. Now it is up to me to not kill them, I guess. Count approached 20 this afternoon.


That's certainly enough to get you started!  :Surprised:  Good luck, Wright, and keep us posted!

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## whuntley

That didn't count the three or four (sort of weak) survivors in the other bunch.  :Very Happy: 

Wright

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## RonWill

> ...and shoot for 1.024 for sea water and 1.010 to 1.015 for 50% sea water (brackish). That's what I have used for _Pantanodons_ and _Ps. cyanodorsalis._


 oh.... droool _Ps. cyanodorsalis._  :Cool:  That's in my want list!

I borrowed a hydrometer from my neighbour...
 
Wright, I can see where 1.010 is but what is "PPI"  :Question:  [or is that "PPT"]




> The Sept. 26 group had essentially no dead that I spotted. All were surviving this AM. Now it is up to me to not kill them, I guess. Count approached 20 this afternoon.


 That's heartening news! Bill, your mop is going into the honeymoon suite.




> Ronnie, did you ever get a TDS meter?


 Bill, I'll followup with *this* later.

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## TyroneGenade

Crushed flake is fine for _Ps. gertrudae_. Don't fuss with green water... micro and vinegar eels are fine two. Some can even take bbs.

My first batch of _gertrudae_ eggs fromAustralia only yeilded 2 fry that became a pr. They were not molly-coddled with infusoria and today the Jones Road Population is thriving in SA.

If you want _cyanodorsalis_ contact Mach Fukada. Maybe he can be tempted here to tell us all his _Pseudomugil_ secrets... I guess it should of been 2 thirds or full sea water...

tt4n

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## ruyle

> Wright, I can see where 1.010 is but what is "PPI"  [or is that "PPT"]


Ronnie, Wright must not have seen the question, but it's parts per thousand. :wink:

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## whuntley

Ronnie and Bill,

I saw it but got distracted and forgot to go back and answer.

Memory obviously is still my second-shortest thing.

Note that my old TDS-1 meter can only read to one part per thousand (actually 0.999) before it gives spooky wrong numbers. Glad you guys got the ones that read to a higher value, for we often keep Nothos and Lampeyes in water of tds greater than 999 ppm.

Accuracy and resolution aren't a big deal, for what dehydrates cells or bursts them are sudden changes of 5X or 10X. I have found most fish tolerate pretty well a sudden reduction of tds of 2X. That is, if you have water at 200 ppm tds and dilute it with RO or distilled water to double the volume, the tds will read 100 ppm and the fish show no bad effects. Going from salty or harder water to soft, low tds water is the worst direction, in my experience.

Ron had warned me that the eggs (actually babies) I recently received were in salty water. I couldn't measure it, but felt OK about adding my 85 ppm tap water to double the volume. When that brought a tds reading of 950 ppm or so, I was pretty sure he had started at around 1800 ppm. We ignore the last couple of digits. It is the big numbers that are important.

A sudden salt bath seems to do little harm to guppies or mollies. I don't do that to rainforest fishes as they may not be quite so tough in that department. It certainly isn't sudden death like a dunking in rainwater from a hard water tank can be.

Wright

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## ruyle

I just won at auction six _P. tenellus_:



photo by Gunther Schmida

Ronnie, hope to send some fry to you this spring!  :Smile:

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## RonWill

Yep, I was watching :wink: . When it arrives, do get the digicam ready. I'd like to see how Tanner packs his live-fishes.

Bill, if the _tenellus_ are indeed sexually matured, condition them well in a dedicated tank with light aeration and you'll find eggs pretty soon, ie. if they're as fuss-free as _gertrudae_ (strange as it may sound, my breeding group is taking a hiatus from the orgasmic frenzy).

Looking forward to your good news!

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## ruyle

Ronnie, will post the pics I took later, but Tanner sent 8 fish of which 7 are
well-fed and healthy. The 8th one has a bent spine and is swimming in
irregular, fitful patterns. Yes, he knows a thing or two about shipping during
the colder months :wink:

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## Shrimplicity

Hi! Sorry to dig this up but Any lfs still selling *P. gertrudae?*

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## Zep

Hi, remember seeing some at fishy business and simply cichlids at bukit merah couple of weeks ago. You may want to check it out.

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## Zep

Was at aquatic avenue today and they have p gertrudae available too.

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## Shrimplicity

Thank you!

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