# Other Aquarium Forums > Fish Care, Nutrition and Water Management >  [HELP] Weird tank parameters after ~2weeks into fishless cycling

## kotaaro

Hi bros, am new here btw.

Just some info, i'm currently using a 2 ft tank, 83litres or about 20 gallons with OHF and a dolphin pump, just a very normal n simple set-up i got from my in-law  :Smile: 

i started with some fishes initially to cycle my new tank, but after they died, i just left my tank as it is. I had also added this "general aid" solution which makes the whole tank turns pale green after adding, i addded this becos of very severe finrot of the fishes.

Have added in some BB almost daily (should i stop..?) and here's my readings after ~2 weeks:

Ammonia: 0.5
nitrite: 5
Nitrate: 10

What is wrong here...? Does the general aid solution have anything to do with my weird readings...? I did a WC change recently and the color of my water is not as green as before.

Have been testing the parameters and cant seem to bring down ammonia and nitrite...but funny thing is there is nitrate!

I have some normal substrate, a piece of driftwood and two plastic plants.

EDIT: JUST TO ADD, i have been adding ammonium bicarbonate since e day i went fishless (2-3 days already), and adding it till my ammonia level is around 4ppm, but the funny thing is it never went down to zero before...does this means that my BB are not matured yet...?

Pls do help  :Sad:  i really do wanna get my puffers in asap  :Sad:  

thanks!!

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## eviltrain

whats inside the OHF?

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## kotaaro

erm im fairly new to this so pardon me if im not using ther correct terms.

inside the OHF i have this blue fliter sponge, with these rough/coarse gravels with a hole in the middle, and 5 pieces of these "balls" with contours which is used to trap more BB i suppose?

Btw im using API Freshwater Master Test Kit to test my water parameters.

Thanks for the prompt reply bro. really appreciate it.

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## eviltrain

stop adding things into the tank and let it cycle on itself. 

good luck  :Very Happy:

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## kotaaro

really..? So im on the right track..?!  :Jump for joy:  So i just let e tank run for a few more days?  :Very Happy: 

btw how often should i perform a test in the water parameters? 1 week once? 3 days once?

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## wongce

Bro,did you add in anti chlorine?or any water conditioner? did you age the water prior adding into aquarium?

Chlorine in tap water alone will cause death.

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## kotaaro

hi wongce, yes i have alwaz added anto-chlorine to my water prior to WC. Yes i age my water as well.

Thing is, im using this $1 Ocean Free Anti-chlorine and i don't think it is doing it job properly...

Been reading up and realised that ppl have been recommending SeaChem Prime?

Is that expensive btw?

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## wongce

From my experience, OF is ok,Seachem prime works ok too, price about 10+ times of common OF anti chlorine with some perks like less amount used,stated converting ammonia to less toxic substance..

I got both, but as last time OF out of stock in my neighbourhood lfs.

There is no need to put in general aid if there is nothing wrong.

What is your substrate?? A picture will really help a lot for the seniors here to help you out...

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## kotaaro

thanks for the info  :Smile: 

my substrates are just normal stones/rocks/pebbles that i got from my in-law. 

a bunch of those, if worth mentioning, are actually "coloured" small white stones that have faded colorings, wonder if my puffers go bite on those would anything happen to them...?

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## wongce

Bro,did u wash the pebbles properly?maybe there is some poisonous residue??i think u better soak the pebbles/everything that is second hand in hot water. Then flush with cold water for few times but Do not put plastic or anything that will melt in hot water.. Some even resort to disinfect stuff with low amount of bleech just in case...

I used to have those coloured pebbles too,a bit of headache as their coloured skin tends to peel off after sometime...its better to use real sand or glass marbles/pebbles which are inert. Just my opinion though...

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## stormhawk

If the colored pebbles are coated in a lead-based paint, your puffers may die from poisoning. In puffer tanks you don't need a lot of gravel. The use of coral sand or something similar is more than enough. Remove the colored stuff and only keep the natural stuff in the tank. 

Do not use the General Aid any more. If it stains your water green it probably contains malachite green, which is capable of staining the silicone joints a pale green color. Since you have no fish in the tank, adding any sort of medication defeats the purpose. Like what Alan says, let it cycle on its own. It will reach the full cycle soon enough. You don't have to test the water every day. Once a week will do.

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## kotaaro

sorry for this late reply.

hmm ok i shall remove the coloured stones then.

The general aid was added while my fishes were still alive, but since they aren't now i just let it be. But i have made a 50% WC after they died to bring down the concentration of the general aid.

Right now my tank has this light hue of green, the general aid is also from Ocean Free, the bottle states 2 capful but i only did 1 because of the colour..would that affect my cycling..?

I juz did a check on my water paramaters ytd nite:

Ammonia: 1-2 ppm

Nitrite: 5ppm

Nitrate: 10-20ppm

Ammonia dropped back to 1-2ppm as i have added ammonium bicarb the previous night to about 4ppm.

I will be adding ammonium bicarb everyday i suppose until my nitrite level drops?

Thing is, my nitrite level has ALWAZ been this high...am i doing anything wrong...? Or should i just wait patiently...?  :Sad:

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## kotaaro

just to add, i have only a thin layer of substrate for my puffer, only about 1cm at most, all are stones, would it be better if they were sand instead? Or is this fine? I'm only laying a thin layer of the stones i have now to cover as much area as possible.

Thing is, if im considering sand in the future, how do i add them in....? During WC?

Do let me know whether my current substrate is fine, if it is i will juz leave it as it is. And also to my qns above this post.

Thanks alot!!  :Very Happy:

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## avex30

bro you still don't get it you can stop adding the bicarbonate already just let the tank contiune to cycle. Are you going to load your tank with 10-20 pc of puffer? if not just let the tank cycle with the current BB it will eventually reach the point of zero. By doing that adding of the bicarbonate you are not helping to build BB but merely restarting your cycling....... 

Like mod Stormhawk say better remove those stones or pebbles or whatever. Just lay some coral sands or gravel will do. Also do remove those plastic plants

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## kotaaro

ahhh thnx for the reply! no i'm only going for ard 2-3 puffers max. i tot i have to add bicarb every now n then...

Ok thanks, i will remove my plastic plants and the coloured stones. Do i also need to remove the DW i have in the tank right now?

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## VSGenesis

LOL! No need to add anything. Just wait. Good move in removing the stones.

Anyway, your reading of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings; except for nitrite looks okay I think. Trying to achieve 0? Reminds me of my 2nd week test. Ammonia was okay, nitrite spiked, nitrate below 10ppm Nitrate is good for your plants actually. My last test on my tank reading was 0.25 - 0.5 for ammonia and nitrite. 10-20 for nitrate. It's all good. 

PS: Becareful of the sms lingo. Some Moderators here bites or they let lose their Demon Hunters on you. LOL.

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## kotaaro

ahh ok i will take note of that lingo  :Very Happy:  thanks!

Yes im trying to achieve zero on both ammonia and nitrite (but i'm having a hard time doing that!!!  :Sad:  )

btw just to add, i removed most of the coloured stones and my plastic plants n DW ytd, so tank is now empty with only the natural stones in it.

Thing is, i notice my tank water is now a little brownish and greenish, but i don't see any algae or whatsoever.

Is my tank okay...? I have not tested the parameters yet, going to wait till this week. Can i still carry on the cycling with this water condition?

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## tetrakid

I agree with this. It is very common for beginners to be eager to buy a lot of chemicals at the beginnning of their hobby. I think that is the biggest mistake. Chemicals are only good when one is reasonably experienced or already advanced. If it is just starting off in the hobby, it is best to avoid any chemicals, though the tempation is high when one sees the glorious array of chemicals on the shelves.



> stop adding things into the tank and let it cycle on itself. 
> 
> good luck

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## dc88

Do you have plant in the tank ?
Some surface floating plant or just dump in some cheap stem plants in the water and with the light on will help, and let nature take its course. 
And the plant is cheaper than the chemical : )

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## kotaaro

i do not have live plants in it. Only two plastic plants which i took them out ytd, hoping for a more successful cycling process.

Btw, if i were to get life plants (they seriously look much nicer than the plastic ones), which one should i go for?

Juz to add, i will be converting my FW to low end BW for my puffers.

Do le advise. thanks!  :Smile: 

Wow tis forum is great! i'm actually getting lotsa response compared to others!!  :Very Happy:

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## avex30

You don't have to without Driftwood can leave it inside but do remove those plastic and stones. You might want to consider those commercial liquid BB to help you now since you have dose bi-carbonate again. It should quicken the cycling effect alittle maybe there is still some powder left behind which might explain why there is still ammonia present. So just be patience and see and wait on also with that much of ammonia i suggest you to have some floating plants like frogbit or hornworts to suck up the end product nitrate if not later you end up with another issue high nitrate (which can also be reduce thru wc)

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## kotaaro

ahh i forgot to add that i have also added this Super Battle Bacteria 8000, 2mL (as per box) when i added bicarb the other time.

Thanks i would look into those floating plants you mentioned.

I do hope they are cheap!  :Smile:

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## avex30

> ahh i forgot to add that i have also added this Super Battle Bacteria 8000, 2mL (as per box) when i added bicarb the other time.
> 
> Thanks i would look into those floating plants you mentioned.
> 
> I do hope they are cheap!


They are frogbit abit hard to find in Lfs you might want to drop by green chapter and ask uncle whether he can spare you some hahaha or you can camp market some bros sell some give away.

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## VSGenesis

Well, you've done more or less what is needed. Now leave the tank alone and let it be.

Check your parameters at the end of the month.

Good luck!

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## kotaaro

ok noted!  :Smile:

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## kotaaro

just to add, since i was bored juz now, i actually went ahead n did a water test.

Ammonia - 0.5

Nitrite - >5 or 5 (dark purple)

Nitrate - 40ppm.

Are my parameters ok..?

Qn: How long does Nitrite spike lasts..?

And do i have to take note of algae growth with this high level of nitrate?

Thanks.

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## kotaaro

hi all, another thing to add.

i noticed that there's alot of these White "bed-buds/ants-like" thingy on my substrates, tank walls n some floating around.

They are very small in size, almost like bubbles or dust if u did not looked closely...

May i know what are these..? Most importantly, are they harmful to my tank and my future fishes as my tank is still cycling now...

Thanks!

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## avex30

> just to add, since i was bored juz now, i actually went ahead n did a water test.
> 
> Ammonia - 0.5
> 
> Nitrite - >5 or 5 (dark purple)
> 
> Nitrate - 40ppm.
> 
> Are my parameters ok..?
> ...


Probably your BB generation is still building up it will take sometimes can't really say how long the spike will stay only way to tell is once you see a drop that mean your nitrite converting BB is starting to culture. 

Than it will probably be another 2 weeks or less.

After which you will see a spike in nitrate 2 way to go about resolve nitrate as mention before floating plants and hornworts or do a large water change.




> hi all, another thing to add.
> 
> i noticed that there's alot of these White "bed-buds/ants-like" thingy on my substrates, tank walls n some floating around.
> 
> They are very small in size, almost like bubbles or dust if u did not looked closely...
> 
> May i know what are these..? Most importantly, are they harmful to my tank and my future fishes as my tank is still cycling now...
> 
> Thanks!


Harmless either seed shrimp or copepods cyclops most probably

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## kotaaro

thnx. Problem is can i do a water change during tank cycling? i wud prefer not to touch it though..

And can i top up any water loss during cycling? The water level seems to be a little lesser due to evaporation.

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## wongce

> thnx. Problem is can i do a water change during tank cycling? i wud prefer not to touch it though..
> 
> And can i top up any water loss during cycling? The water level seems to be a little lesser due to evaporation.


Yes, you can do WC during cycling...to lower the initial no2/no3 spike.

Yes, top ups are no an issue here. 

Note: top up/wc with aged water/ anti chlorine treated water... for keeping shrimps, distilled water is prefered to maintain the low GH/TDS

your tanks seems going to be ready soon, test once a week should be sufficient... to keep your finger cross for another 2 weeks.... btw, you can add some plants into the tank during cycling stage... to help to absorb all the excess nutrients...

Do you have any biomedia in your filter/substrate? biomedia will help to provide a space for BB to grow...

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## kotaaro

yes i have biomedia in my OHF, those coarse ceramic rings, and some bio balls.

ok i will be going out to get some plants for my tank now though, any suggestions which to get? as in those easier to be found in our LFS. thnx!

i prefer floating ones!  :Smile:

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## wongce

For shrimp tanks,i would suggest hornwarts, moss like fissiden,java moss... Floating would be frogbits...

Shrimps loves to graze around moss...

I seldom see lfs selling frogbits,if you want i can give you a handful to start up.PM me to arrange...

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## kotaaro

Hi bro, mine is a puffer tank btw  :Smile:  

Thnx i will arrange wif u.

Btw do frogbits multiply n grow fast?

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## kotaaro

erm wongce bro, sorry but i cant PM you here..i don't have enough posts counts yet  :Sad:

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## wongce

LOL, btw are you going to keep the tank as a planted tank with puffer or just plastic plants with puffer?

all plants requires lighting and fertilizer to stay alive... if you do not have sufficient lights (min 6-8 hours of lights daily), they will die... 

Keeping planted tank can be quite challenging, i am contactable via whatsapp/sms 9one84988six

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## kotaaro

im tinking of keeping plastic plants in the tank and some live floating ones if it really helps with the nitrate level.

my tank only has 1, 2ft florescent bulb. Is that sufficient..? 

my tank is also about 2metres away from my balcony window, should have enough sunlight/light i guess?

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## kotaaro

hi all!

have some really good news to share! (at least for me), i just tested my water parameters:

Ammonia: 0.5

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate 80

I think im really in the right direction!  :Smile: 

But the ammonia still puzzles me though..till now i haven tested 0ppm for my ammonia, is there anything that im not doing correctly? Why don't my ammonia dropped to zero...?

Just to add, i added ammonium bicarb as my ammonia source for fishless cycle.

And i would only be able to buy my puffers during this weekend so are there any pointers that i have to take note of so that i can maintain the water parameters until then?

Thanks!!

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## RonWill

> I seldom see lfs selling frogbits...


 Depending on where you go, one might find _Pistia stratiotes_ (water lettuce), _Salvinia natans_ & _Limnobium laevigatum_ (Amazon frogbit). These are very understated plants but fulfill their role as biological filters most efficiently. My most oft used and favorite plants.




> ...you might want to drop by green chapter and ask uncle whether he can spare you some


 Kotaaro, introduce yourself to the uncle and say that AQ sent you for starter floaters. Don't go down on Wednesdays though... you'd be totally ignored! (Avex, sssshhhh...  :Laughing: )




> Why don't my ammonia dropped to zero...?


 How so, when you keep adding ammonium bicarb??? It's almost like... adding ice to your kopi and asking how come the kopi not hot??  :Laughing:

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## kotaaro

Lol! Thing is i stopped adding ammonia bicarb a long time ago.

And it always occur to me that ammonia has to go zero first before nitrite.

Guess i'll just do water change then  :Smile:

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## kotaaro

by the way, how do i find my way to Green Chapter from Clementi mrt? 

I know it's like a 10mins walk?

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## kotaaro

i juz did a 30% WC, but my ammonia level is still at 0.5ppm..

nitrite 0, nitrate 10.

My ammonia hav been at this level for quite some time during my cycling, any idea why..?

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## VSGenesis

Faints.

LOL @ Ronwill. (Can add that as my signature or not?)

How long has this cycling go on for?

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## wongce

> i juz did a 30% WC, but my ammonia level is still at 0.5ppm..
> 
> nitrite 0, nitrate 10.
> 
> My ammonia hav been at this level for quite some time during my cycling, any idea why..?


bro, chill... give it some time, most probably due to your constant adding of ammonium bicarbonate. Since you stop adding it, the next step is wait.... did the nitrate go down??

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## kotaaro

> Faints.
> 
> LOL @ Ronwill. (Can add that as my signature or not?)
> 
> How long has this cycling go on for?


3 weeks already

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## kotaaro

> bro, chill... give it some time, most probably due to your constant adding of ammonium bicarbonate. Since you stop adding it, the next step is wait.... did the nitrate go down??


yes bro. nitrate went down to 10 after i did WC. was at 80 the previous time  :Smile:

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## RonWill

> LOL @ Ronwill. (Can add that as my signature or not?)


 erm... meaning??

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## VSGenesis

> erm... meaning??


@ Ron: Err...never mind

@ kotaaro: Patience. Do the weekly WC. Don't add or do anything. And I mean it. Don't go adding anything else. Sit, have a cup of joe and just relax. On 1st June, go check again.

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## felix_fx2

> 3 weeks already


It is only 3 weeks. Typical cycling 4 weeks onwards. (for brand new setup normally even longer).

If no patience. Cycle with a few foc feeders. Since more then a week. Fish can survive. 

Anyway. What shrimps you keeping? Some shrimps more hardy. Some shrimps very sensitive. 

Btw, your sms lingos. Please note their not allowed.

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## wongce

he wanted to keep puffer.... haha earlier i also thought he wanted to keep shrimp

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## kotaaro

> @ Ron: Err...never mind
> 
> @ kotaaro: Patience. Do the weekly WC. Don't add or do anything. And I mean it. Don't go adding anything else. Sit, have a cup of joe and just relax. On 1st June, go check again.


do i do a weekly WC or 3 days once is fine as well?

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## wongce

Since your nitrate dropped so fast,weekly should be okay for you...

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## kotaaro

> It is only 3 weeks. Typical cycling 4 weeks onwards. (for brand new setup normally even longer).
> 
> If no patience. Cycle with a few foc feeders. Since more then a week. Fish can survive. 
> 
> Anyway. What shrimps you keeping? Some shrimps more hardy. Some shrimps very sensitive. 
> 
> Btw, your sms lingos. Please note their not allowed.


ok noted on the lingo  :Smile:

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## kotaaro

> Since your nitrate dropped so fast,weekly should be okay for you...


ok thanks!  :Smile:

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## kotaaro

checked parameters again, ammonia is now 0.5 - 1 ppm..

seems like its not decreasing at all...?

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## avex30

1) dead corner
2) Something else is giving or leeching ammonia. 

I think if possible you post a FTS.

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## kotaaro

what is FTS by the way...?

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## kotaaro

if you meant by full tank set-up, i can give you a rough one now as im still in at work:

2ft tank, OHF with dolphin pump, cant remember whether it's 24w/240w or was it 48w/480w.

OHF has got fliter sponge, ceramic fliter and some bio balls. tank only has a piece of driftwoor, 2 moss balls and some stones.

it will be 4 months of cycling coming this mid-week, parameters are all good except for ammonia levels..

There are however some residues, i think its from my driftwood, at the bottom of my tank. 

Will be doing a WC one of these days, question is, do i do a huge one this time round to make sure my ammonia level drop? like >50%?

Just to add i have not been adding ammonium bicarb since my initial cycling phase, ammonia has dropped from 3-4ppm to current level, 0.5 -1 ppm at the moment..but its still not good at all for me, i need zero for my puffers...

Dead spots i don't think there are any i guess? the outlet from my OFH is actually quite strong that the jet and stream of bubbles actually almost touch the bottom of my tank.

Please advise. Thanks..

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## kotaaro

Just to edit: it's 4 WEEKS of cycling instead of 4 MONTHS.

Tank volume is about 82 litres just to add.

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## wongce

Probably your DW is releasing the ammonia you dosed previously....

As i told you before, the last 0.5-1 level of ammonia seems very SLOOOOOW.... haha be patient... :Smile: 

Any growth from the frogbits i gave you? Frogbits will grow very fast if they there is ammonia in water...

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## kotaaro

hi bro, hmm i thought so too, was thinking whether or not its my DW that's the main problem..

Regarding your frogbits, yes got some growth, but also got some dead  :Sad: 

i think my light source not adequate....

maybe need to on lights for more hours during the night?

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## kotaaro

by the way, i just did an almost 50% WC, checked my ammonia levels, still at around 1ppm...

Have added in a little BB with my WC though.

Why is my ammonia level still hovering at that level? Is it because of my driftwood? or are there dead corners in my water?

I tried a few tests on different parts of the tank, gave me the same results for ammonia levels though.

What should i do to prevent dead corners? and how would i know my tank has it?

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## eviltrain

i think you should do what i recommended 

1. stop adding things, anything
2. do not touch the tank for 4 weeks
3. measure the parameter at the end of the 4th week and tell us the result.

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## kotaaro

erm another 4 more weeks...? that would be a total of 8 weeks of cycling  :Sad: 

i thought i can get my puffers this weekend...

What about WC? I don't do WC for that period as well..?

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## eviltrain

the only thing you should add is Dihydrogen Monoxide due to evaporation.

just let the BB colony grow first. 

DO NOT ADD ANYMORE THINGS UNTIL your parameter is stable.

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## kotaaro

so i assume that includes no WC as well?

realised something as well, mosquitos! there have been an increased in the number of mozzy in my hse recently, and when i did the WC this morning, was shocked to find two on my frogbits!

Any method to connect something to my outlet of my OHF to make the surface and the frogbits go round and round? i just don't want my frogbits/water surface to be stagnant enough for mozzys to thrive..

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## eviltrain

just create an elbow at the outlet will do.

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## kotaaro

thanks bro for the replies.

guess it's another waiting game for me all over again  :Sad: 

ever heard of people do a fishless cycling for so long..?  :Very Happy:

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## kotaaro

hi all, i tested my tap water yesterday and found out that the ammonia level is 0.5ppm.

Would this be the main reason why my ammonia level won't drop despite the usual WC?

Or it could also mean that my BB is not mature enough to convert NH3 to Nitrite fast enough?

My dechlorinator does not mention the ability to remove chloramine, would a change to seachem prime or any others that is able to remove chloramine be better?

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## felix_fx2

> thanks bro for the replies.
> 
> guess it's another waiting game for me all over again 
> 
> ever heard of people do a fishless cycling for so long..?


Very normal 4-8 weeks. Some even longer. Some do the normal cycling with some mulm obtained from other hobbyist and add fish few days later.

There Is many examples in the fourm actually. Just do a search, most 1st week run out of patience and try to add commercial products and then start asking why.

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## ChromiumX

after about 2 weeks my water is still a little cloudy, is that normal??

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## kotaaro

ok im getting kinda impatient lately due to my ammonia level..

did a test this morning, ammonia level is still at 1ppm..

Any bros here willing to lend me some of their filter media, CR or anything that helps?

Thanks..

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## felix_fx2

Where you live. Get from someone who live close by.

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## kotaaro

living in yishun.

any bros here live near me? i can collect some of you on weekdays night, i do have some brand new CR if you need, i can replaced these with the ones you gave me. thanks.

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## kotaaro

did another check yesterday:

ammonia: 1-2ppm

nitrite: 0ppm

nitrate: 20ppm

question is, would i suddenly see ammonia = 0 the following day? Or would it decrease gradually (which it is not apparantly)?

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## felix_fx2

Do you add anything after water change? Like seachem nitrogen and such.

Seen some bros who dose after taking advice of 1 person and measure after water change from advice of another.

I won't bother to change much water when I started. Just did 10% max.

Btw, I do not do fishless cycling. I still use fish after water is cleared of chorine.

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## kotaaro

i only add some nutrafin cycle and super bacteria 8000 after doing water change, but that was before i was told by you guys to stop doing water change.

i just added a long airstone yesterday and hope that the extra aeration will help in my cycling, previously, my outlet flow from my OHF is already creating much agitation on the tank's surface.

But why is it that the bacteria that is able to convert nitrite to nitrate growing well, but the one that is converting ammonia to nitrite not doing well?

Shouldn't it be sort of connected to one another? as in if the first bacteria did not grow well, it will actually affect the subsequent ones? 

Or is my case just adnormal?

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## kotaaro

i might not be able to reply on time as i can only surf AQ during work..

somehow, starhub is still blocking access in my home broadband...

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## kotaaro

another question, is it advisable for me to add in my gravel first? basically now my tank only has a few pieces of corys and a driftwood.

was thinking it might just give the BB even more surface to thrive on. wise thing to do now?

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## felix_fx2

> another question, is it advisable for me to add in my gravel first? basically now my tank only has a few pieces of corys and a driftwood.
> 
> was thinking it might just give the BB even more surface to thrive on. wise thing to do now?


Gravel? Huh........

You have totally lose me. 
Please provide a picture.

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## kotaaro

erm as in diamond quartz gravel? my tank is bare bottom as of now.

and my gravel/substrate is lying in a corner now.

should i?

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## felix_fx2

Can ask why you didn't add when You started to cycle the tank?

Doubt it will affect parameters much, but although inert don't make starting a tank in this manner a habit.

Look at other folks setting up their tank. And you will find that you are odd one out.

If it was other substrate, Then you'll be in for a "cloud of ammonia".

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## VSGenesis

You win already bro. From feeling sleepy in office, you woke me up.

You are supposed to add substrate, dw, rocks, plants then flood tank. Then cycle tank. 

You fry chicken. Tou turn on stove.You add chicken. Wait till hot then you add oil. You forgot the base. The oil or rather the substrate. That's what you are doing. Bro, take a step back. Relax. Deep breath and find out what goes into the tank before you flood it. I know it can be exciting but adding substrate after flooding, you gonna mess up your tank.

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## kotaaro

there were rocks during initial cycling, heeded you guys's advice and took those out for fear of the paint that was peeling-off from the rocks. tank is bare bottom since.

gotten these black diamond quartz from a forumer, was thinking to add them after i finished cycling.

till now, it has alwaz been ammonia that is still showing showing, surprisingly, nitrite and nitrate are okay.

So what do i do now? do i add in the substrate or not?

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## kotaaro

and why would substrate be of an important factor during cycling of tank? 

from what i read, it seems that BB grows more in the filter and biomedia compared other places like decorations and gravel? 

and these gravel which i have now states that it will not affect water parameters. 

and how would adding the substrates now affect my tank?

thanks.

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## VSGenesis

Hi bro, 

My bad. Perhaps i misunderstood you so Let's start over.

Here are a few questions, i would like to ask and once answered, we will be able to assist you step by step okay.

1. What is the theme of this tank? Planted or a non planted tank?
2. What material are you using? Example driftwood.
3. What fauna will you be adding to the tank?
4. What filtration, co2 system if any and lighting are you using?

Each question asked above will lead to further questions which will help you decide what you need to do.

Is that okay with you? Let me lnow what you think and we work it out from there.

Cheers

----------


## kotaaro

No problem  :Smile:  I could really use your help here too  :Smile: 

1) It's a non-planted tank. 

2) What do you mean by material used? If you are asking for what i have already placed in my tank, it would be a piece of driftwood, very few small stones(non-painted ones) which i left it there as i had a tough time removing them all the previous time, and a stick of airstone. Items still pending to be placed in tank are substrate and two plastic plants (medium sized).

3) Puffer fish. Figure of 8. Will be converting to low-end brackish after tank is cycled and fishes are introduced.

4) Using a simple OFH for my 2ft tank, with 1 layer of ceramic rings at the bottom, top with filter sponge/wool. Have a 2ft light as well, but don't think it is enough for live plants.

Awaiting your reply  :Very Happy:

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## felix_fx2

> and why would substrate be of an important factor during cycling of tank? 
> 
> from what i read, it seems that BB grows more in the filter and biomedia compared other places like decorations and gravel? 
> 
> and these gravel which i have now states that it will not affect water parameters. 
> 
> and how would adding the substrates now affect my tank?
> 
> thanks.


1. BB grows everywhere.
2. You know they also grow from your reply. Now ask yourself do you want more BB or less BB?
3. Quartz after washed should not affect as it is inert, provided you washed clean the residue. Since you mention USED.
4. I mentioned OTHER substrate. The compressed grains aka Aquasoil. Example Gex/ADA amazonia2.
5. Provide full specs & picture. 1 picture of tank 1 picture of filter can already tell the folks alot. 

I see everyone has and will be putting wild gueses as part of the advice, kindly let him provide a better understand to us rather then guessing and feeding information.

FYI: Your fishless cycling thread has become a normal cycling thread.

----------


## VSGenesis

BB (Beneficial Bacteria) grows everywhere. It even grows on the roots of your plants.
Bacteria is everywhere.

Substrate
Add it into the empty tank. Before doing that, wash it. its not aquasoil like ADA Amazonia or GEX, its quartz so wash it.
Height of the substrate in the foreground depends on you. But make it slope up to back Height of the back, double the front. This gives a sense of depth. 

Next.

Material
Add your rocks and driftwood. You did not complain about the dw floating, so i assume its waterlogged. Adjust accordingly till you are satisfied.

Fake Plants
Make sure to wash it first. Plant it in. Have patient, adjust accordingly till you are satisfied. Just to note, eventhough this is a non planted tank, you can tie moss to your dw.

Equipment
is it cannister, hof, ohf or internal filter? For internal, put it in after substrate, so that you can later on use the plants or the material to hide it from view. This part just my opinion. If its a new filter, make sure to wash the pads, media and what not.

Flood
Add water slowly into the tank. Otherwise it'll disturb your substrate. Use the same water you have now. WC 10-20% weekly. The guys are doing 20-50% because theirs is planted.

Cycle. Please do not add any bacterlife or anything like that into the water. Do not add ammonia or what not. Absolutely nothing. Can i ask why so much concern that ammonia is at 1? You're not keeping crs. Some people dont bother with testing the water. They use eye power. They wait 1 to 1.5 months. They add fauna.

Good luck

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## kotaaro

thanks for the reply. i have added the substrate and fake plants into the tank already as of yesterday night. would adjust the height of the substrate tonight.

Im keeping puffers, and from what i know and read about in other forums as well, puffers are scaleless fish, and would require 0 ammonia level so that it will not burn their skin and in return make it stressed out. that's why im trying my best to make ammonia levels to as close to zero as possible, but its at 1-2ppm from my last reading...hopefully after all the extra surface area i have added, the BB can grow faster.

And shouldn't the main purpose of cycling a tank is to reach the ideal ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate <20? 

regarding ammonia levels, is it due to me not using a dechlorinator that can reduce chloramine? I threw my initial one away and bought Seachem prime. Should i do a partial water change using that say, tonight or tomorrow? would it help with the ammonia level? or would only doing partial water changes helps with ammonia levels?

my filter is OHF, theres ceramic rings and blue sponge in it.

----------


## VSGenesis

Okay one more time. And please read slowly what we're gonna suggest to you okay.

With the added substrate, you'll allow bb to colonise there.
1) when doing water change, do 20% water change on every Sunday
2) add prime into bucket, add tap water to bucket. Scoop water using pail and pour back into bucket. Do a few times. If you worry, wait awhile. Pour into tank slowly. (not for everyone especially shrimp keeper okay)
3) as you got no plants, can i suggest a bubble curtain? Its where you have this long tube place at the back. Attached to air. Pump. Bubbles will rise like a curtain. This will increase gas exchange. Meaning more oxygen gets into your tank. The driftwood will hide the equipment at the back and it looks nice. Remember aeration is important. You got no plants to produce the o2. Must increase your aeration. If you do not have surface agitation, then no gas exchange
4) very very very important. I'm pretty sure, your water ammonia level now is not zero. Do not add anything inside. I mean it. Dont add any bacter. I dont understand what chloromine have to do with ammonia. So i'm not sure what you are talking about here. Are you talking about prime?
5) you do know what produces ammonia right? The left over food will rot and the waste from the fish produces ammonia. So there will be a slight increase of ammonia before the bb converts it to nitrite.
6) can tell me what is your water parameter now? Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. 

Water cycling is not rocket science. If you read through the entire forum on cycling, its all the same.
Before flooding the tank, you must have a plan. Step by step what goes into the tank. We were not aware that you do not have a substrate. Members ask you to remove the painted rocks and that is a good good advise. Avoid all this coloured stones. Even marbles.
Cycling a tank is easy but must have patience. Adding things into it and not knowing the consequences is bad.
Add substrate
Add material
Add fake plants
Add filtration
Add bubble curtain (usual air stone works fine)
Add water
Add a pinch of fish food daily for a week or two (it'll rot and provide the ammonia to start cyling)
Monitor weekly water parameter
Weekly water change at 20-30%
Ammonia will spike in the beginning
When nitrite spike and ammonia drops. it indicates you are half way through.
Ammonia will go down further and nitrite will follow suit. Nirtrate spikes.
Ammonia and nitrite goes zero and nitrate at 10-20ppm.
You are ready to add fauna.

Did you read? I did not say anything about adding ammonia or bacter. These items are not for starters. Its best to learn the basic first. If you dont mind, then use 1-2 platys in the beginning. Yes they might die. This is a very old method of cycling. I dont use it cause the cycling fish will die. Mulm from another matured tank will help too. Again to do cycling, do it simple. Dont over complicate it. Fish needs oxygen. You're using ohf right? Add air stone or bubble curtain i mentioned. Still water is not right. Water agitation also helps avoid your tank breeding mosquitoes.

What are you going to feed your puffer? Fish food?

----------


## VSGenesis

Please read okay. Don't selective read the advice given. Most of those who advice you are very experience. More experience than me. Its five pages now. We don't want your fish to die and get discouraged. Cause if you ask again about cycling, i won't reply cos i'll be repeating the same thing.

And i hope once things are right, you do know what food to give your puffer. Get snails for them. Seaview sell them cheap to feed the puffer. You can also breed this snails but ifyou dont know how, then just buy them off the shelf. Puffer dont eat commercial fish food. Frozen blood worm also good. Its true that certain fauna are sensitive but there is a tolerance level.

----------


## felix_fx2

His cory didn't die.
But his tap water he tested... has FOC ammonia.. does anyone have same thing?

P.S: i do not have No2/No3 tester, i add direct from tap. Add anti chlorine/chloramine 10-15 drops (the brand Genesis, very cheap $2.50. till date only used half of the bottle. dosage 1 drop per gallon.) I don't have puffers as didn't have interest.

----------


## kotaaro

First of all, i did bought a few puffers initially, sadly i did not read up and all of them died, 6 till date to be exact.

That's why i'm doing the cycling now.

I know the basic of cycling, just that not all webbys specifically spell out what to add and what to do, yes my bad on certain areas but i'm trying. Most of the time, i'm just asking about my ammonia levels, i know my tank is cycling, as there's nitrite spike in the beginning (now zero) and nitrates now. Have been asking this since...i don't know when....i shall ask again, if my tank is partially cycled, why is my ammonia level still at 1-2ppm? it is not dropping whatsoever after so long. By right ammonia should spike, and then goes to zero as it is converted to nitrite, my question is, how is it possible that the bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite has not matured yet, but the one that converts nitrite to nitrate is there?? Answer me this someone, please...?

As of today, my water parameters are:

Ammonia: 1-2ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20ppm

And trust me, i have read ALOT about puffers, i have a small tank now full of snails which is multiplying like crazy but nothing to feast on them yet..yes i still have lots of frozen brine shrimps and red worms waiting for my puffers as well. I know thread has been dragged on to five pages, but it's like that. My question has not been answered, that's why.

If i'm not serious about this, i would have left this thread hanging and just dump off my tank elsewhere. You won't know how much more i want this tank to cycle completely so that i can finally get some puffers in there..

And of course, thanks once again for your response. Looking forward to more from you guys.

----------


## VSGenesis

I will not ask why the cory is already in there but if its surviing it means parameters are fine and tolerable.

Now regards to ammonia in tap water, that is serious. Even in low amount. Serious allegation there. Cause if that is true, it should be brought to the authorities attention. Hence, I can only assume...
1) test kit problem or expired
2) sewage piping leak and broke into water piping. Gulp. LOL!! Talk about NewWater. Haha
3) test tube not washed properly

I go home test ah. Hehe. Actually, secretly tested tap water parameters before and no "lah" where got ammonia. If have, in newspaper already. The only thing I know, PH in tap is high, got chlorine and chloromine. Other metals I am not sure. Oh ya fluoride. My fish teeth very shiny. 

As for anti chlorine, I use prime. And something that no one should follow is I mix prime with nutrafin plus. 1st bucket prime. 2nd bucket nutrafin plus. Fish going "what the hell is wrong with you?!"

----------


## kotaaro

And yes i do have some corys now in my tank, it was used to counter the mozzys that suddenly breed like crazy one day.

Yes it went from fishless cycling to normal cycling now.

And yes there's ammonia in my tapwater, or rather chloramine, tested it and it gave a reading of 0.5ppm. 

Chloramine = chlorine + ammonia/ammonium. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Would adding seachem Prime allows the ammonia in chloramine in my water changes to be "easier" to break down by bacteria? That's how ammonia gets break down and converts to nitrite right?

Don't know if this is worth mentioning, after my nitrite spiked and went down to zero, it has always remained zero since. Does this means that the ammonia is not being converted yet? Or just that nitrites are being converted faster to nitrates than ammonia can be converted to nitrite? quite a mouthful here but..you guys will understand i'm sure.

Thanks.

----------


## felix_fx2

Ammonia will always be required for the nitrogen cycle to start and go on.
If both 3 are zero. Your bb colony will die off slowly from starvation. 
http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm

This will help.

Cory are bottom feeders. Not sure who told you they counter Mosquitos. The mouth face down. 
Mosquito larvae is on water surface.

----------


## wongce

Ammonia is present in tap water.. From PUB Website:- Ammonia is added in the treated water containing free chlorine to form a stable chlorine residual

PUB website:- http://www.pub.gov.sg/general/pages/watertreatment.aspx

it states the water contents, so it is normal...different part of Singapore may get different water parameters...even NO3 is present in the tap water.. :Smile: 

Kotaaro, it will be helpful if you can post a picture of your tank, it will be easier for us to see the potential problem.

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## kotaaro

sorry sorry its not cory, its platys..

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## kotaaro

> Ammonia will always be required for the nitrogen cycle to start and go on.
> If both 3 are zero. Your bb colony will die off slowly from starvation. 
> http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm
> 
> This will help.
> 
> Cory are bottom feeders. Not sure who told you they counter Mosquitos. The mouth face down. 
> Mosquito larvae is on water surface.


yes this i know. what puzzles me is that ammonia should reduce gradually and eventually reaches zero right? and from then now its the fish wastes and fish food that supplies the ammonia source.

But mine has been like "stuck" at 1-2ppm for like, 2 weeks now? Why?

----------


## kotaaro

> Ammonia will always be required for the nitrogen cycle to start and go on.
> If both 3 are zero. Your bb colony will die off slowly from starvation. 
> http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm
> 
> This will help.
> 
> Cory are bottom feeders. Not sure who told you they counter Mosquitos. The mouth face down. 
> Mosquito larvae is on water surface.


yes this i know. what puzzles me is that ammonia should reduce gradually and eventually reaches zero right? and from then now its the fish wastes and fish food that supplies the ammonia source.

But mine has been like "stuck" at 1-2ppm for like, 2 weeks now? Why?

----------


## kotaaro

Tank shot. I have placed this stick of airstone in my gravel behind the tank. hopefully you can spot the rows of bubbles.



sorry for this blurred pic of my OHF. Beneath the blue sponge are a layer of ceramic rings. Same case on the smaller compartment to the right where the outlet is.



Pic of my DW and hopefully a clearer shot of whats in my tank. Have not yet scape my gravel, will do it this weekend.

Please let me know what i need to improve on. thanks.

----------


## VSGenesis

Hmm...I know chlorine and ammonia makes choloromine but what i didn't know is that ammonia is still present in the tap water. But if there are trace of ammonia, there would be nitrite and nitrate present right. I'll check water later. Interesting.

Prime will convert ammonia to ammonium. I have this feeling that the reagent from the test kit somehow release the complex ammonia and is giving that false reading. Get another test kit. Different brand and retest.

From personal experience, my ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is constant at 0,0,10-20 The present of nitrate tells me the bb are there. I increased food supply and increase fauna by 10 to see if my filter can take it. The ammonia went up for the first day and it went down to 0 again.

Bro you have a body of water there that is stagnant "lah" Add air stone. It's stagnant that's why got mozzies

Scaless or scale, all fish have a tolerance level. 

Take picture for us bro please. Picture speaks a thousand words. And easier to identify certain mistakes that we can help you improve on.

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## kotaaro

> From personal experience, my ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is constant at 0,0,10-20 The present of nitrate tells me the bb are there. I increased food supply and increase fauna by 10 to see if my filter can take it. The ammonia went up for the first day and it went down to 0 again.
> .


yes bro i'm trying to achieve this as well. i can't help it if the ammonia doesn't want to give me an easier life now..ok i will try another brand then. Which are the better options? Im currently using API freshwater master test kit.

anyway pics are up. do give me your comments pls thanks.

----------


## VSGenesis

Sorry I post late. You already put up pictures.

Ah got surface agitation = no mozzies.

Err...sorry I'm not sure about OHF, but is the CR underneath the foam pad? Why is there 3 CR in the tank's foreground? Hehe. No need put there bro.

----------


## VSGenesis

> yes bro i'm trying to achieve this as well. i can't help it if the ammonia doesn't want to give me an easier life now..ok i will try another brand then. Which are the better options? Im currently using API freshwater master test kit.
> 
> anyway pics are up. do give me your comments pls thanks.


Relax. It's just ammonia. It's at a low level. Heehee. If using reagent, maybe ask friends to let you use it for a week or so and then return. Or if you want, go get Seachem Ammonia Alert. It's that circle thing that looks like the wheel of fortune.

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## wongce

My opinion and guesses

1) dw still leaking ammonia from previously added ammonia.(i suggest you remove it for 1 week and retest?)
2) test kit problem, api test kit can be quite hard to read,did you read wrongly? 
3) some you added without knowing it will contribute to ammonia level? Did you add anything into the tank during these period??
4) insufficient space for bb to grow,your ohf's cr is not enough?
5) do not do any WC or add anything into the tank for a week and retest.
6) inform your family members/housemates not to add anything into the tank...who knows someone might be adding stuff for you when you are not around(help you feed fish etc)...haha

Seachem prime will mask your ammonia and nitrate levels for few days. Therefore,reading might not be accurate. Have to test few days after adding prime.

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## wongce

I am staying nearby your area,my tap water's ammonia is 0.i test using cheapo test kit...prodac brand(i doubt you even heard about it..lol)

----------


## kotaaro

> My opinion and guesses
> 
> 1) dw still leaking ammonia from previously added ammonia.(i suggest you remove it for 1 week and retest?)
> 2) test kit problem, api test kit can be quite hard to read,did you read wrongly? 
> 3) some you added without knowing it will contribute to ammonia level? Did you add anything into the tank during these period??
> 4) insufficient space for bb to grow,your ohf's cr is not enough?
> 5) do not do any WC or add anything into the tank for a week and retest.
> 6) inform your family members/housemates not to add anything into the tank...who knows someone might be adding stuff for you when you are not around(help you feed fish etc)...haha
> 
> Seachem prime will mask your ammonia and nitrate levels for few days. Therefore,reading might not be accurate. Have to test few days after adding prime.


1) previously i did try removing it, but ammonia level still there.
2)yes have read the instructions properly. but nonetheless, i will get another brand just to be sure.
3) have not added anything that "could" be ammonia-inducing. im quite sure of this. other than the initial cycling phase, but that's all about it.
4)really? i don't think there is any more space to squeeze in another later of rings in there though..but i will try tonight once i'm home.
5) so do i do a 20% WC this sunday or no?  :Smile:  you guys making me confused  :Very Happy: 
6) sure thing, im always there during feeding. and currently, i feel quite bad for my current fishes as i hav been feeding them minimal food..

----------


## kotaaro

hmmm 0 ammonia on your tap...? remember i told you mine was 0.5 some time back..? grrr...will go test again tonight..

wow seems like i have lots to do tonight  :Smile:

----------


## kotaaro

> Sorry I post late. You already put up pictures.
> 
> Ah got surface agitation = no mozzies.
> 
> Err...sorry I'm not sure about OHF, but is the CR underneath the foam pad? Why is there 3 CR in the tank's foreground? Hehe. No need put there bro.


Yes the CR are underneath the foam pad, a layer of them, area is the same as the foam pad.

the 3 CR dropped through my outlet flow  :Smile:  and it kinda looks nice on the substrate so i just left those there  :Smug: 




> Relax. It's just ammonia. It's at a low level. Heehee. If using reagent, maybe ask friends to let you use it for a week or so and then return. Or if you want, go get Seachem Ammonia Alert. It's that circle thing that looks like the wheel of fortune.


low level ammonia is not good enough, i need 0 ammonia  :Crying: 

What's reagent by the way?

do ammonia alert work? very mixed reviews about those though..and it costs like $1x  :Sad:

----------


## VSGenesis

Oh, liquid test kit. The liquid=reagent.

Well, take it as a thermometer. Your liquid test kit is the digital thermometer (that in my opinion could be the cause of the false reading) and the ammonia alert the hang on thermometer. It reads differently. The hang on shows 1D less than the digital. Well, you want to be sure that you're reading is correct and not false so ya, you got to spend.

Pardon me okay, just a silly question. Do you at any point of time switch off the OHF?

PS: follow wongce, he has better take than me. =) I'm giving you comments base on what I will do.

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## kotaaro

icic. a couple of times where i switched off the mains to my OHF is when i need to plug in new plugs for my new equpiments, all doone in less than a minute and pump and everything is up and running with less than 1 minute of stoppage time. i don't think this will cause much of an issue for the BB?

regarding water change, do i still continue to do or do i stop doing? wongce suggests not to, you suggest to do 1 this sunday, or should i do partial water change, 20%, every 3 days to bring my ammonia levels down? using prime of course.

----------


## VSGenesis

Follow wongce. wongce is trying to diagnose where this reading is coming from; considering that all cycling was done properly. So follow him.

Ask you when do you test the water parameters? After using prime say within the next 24hours?

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## kotaaro

i have tested for ammonia after using prime for 24hrs, and a few days later.

both gave me the same ammonia readings of 1-2ppm...thats why i was wondering, which is not working? seachem prime or my test kit...? 

damn it im starting to think my ammonia test kits are expired or something...have been getting such consistent ammonia readings for almost 2 weeks now.

or it could be that my tank is not cycled fully....but there's zero nitrite and 20ppm nitrate!  :Sad:  all will be revealed when i get another ammonia test kit tonight..which brand is good? Sera?

----------


## kotaaro

Just did another test for ammonian using a different brand of test kit.

Results the same..2ppm..

----------


## felix_fx2

> Just did another test for ammonian using a different brand of test kit.
> 
> Results the same..2ppm..


Why so headache.

Nitrogen cycle is something on going. A well developed colony of bb will keep to levels very very low.

If your ammonia levels is see-saw at the lower few, and with some live stock. Should be due to capacity of bb with ohf.

Very likely you will remember the last few test results and intervals. Can post?

But one personal thing. I moved from sponge filter-&gt;ohf-&gt;hof-&gt;canister. You may consider adding a cheap hof and get some aged mulm to it.

----------


## wongce

If there is no issues with test kits,the potential bugger might be insufficient Space for BB to strive and grow. Most of scapers or shrimp keepers have at least 1-2 kg of biomedia in filter for cultivative bb(some even more and higher quality). I myself have used a lot of biomedia if you read my journal. 

Next stop,pls take a pic of the Amount of CR you put into your OHF. Take some macro pictures of the CR you used.

----------


## kotaaro

> Why so headache.
> 
> Nitrogen cycle is something on going. A well developed colony of bb will keep to levels very very low.
> 
> If your ammonia levels is see-saw at the lower few, and with some live stock. Should be due to capacity of bb with ohf.
> 
> Very likely you will remember the last few test results and intervals. Can post?
> 
> But one personal thing. I moved from sponge filter-&gt;ohf-&gt;hof-&gt;canister. You may consider adding a cheap hof and get some aged mulm to it.


went fishless cycling initially, dosed ammonia bicarb till 3-4ppm, at one point it was hovering at 0.5ppm for first few weeks

But then it continue to rise and remained at 1-2ppm ever since.

Should i add more CR to my OHF immediately?

----------


## kotaaro

> If there is no issues with test kits,the potential bugger might be insufficient Space for BB to strive and grow. Most of scapers or shrimp keepers have at least 1-2 kg of biomedia in filter for cultivative bb(some even more and higher quality). I myself have used a lot of biomedia if you read my journal. 
> 
> Next stop,pls take a pic of the Amount of CR you put into your OHF. Take some macro pictures of the CR you used.


should i juz half the thickness of my existing sponge and add more CR underneath it? because as you can see from my OHF picture, there is this plastic holder above the sponge, i think that's use to distribute water even into the biomedia, is that important? can i remove that so i can have more room for more CR.

Reason why i want to half thickness of sponge is that it is kind of thick for a single piece. and i think my total amount of ceramic rings did not even exceed 1 kg? might me 50-60 pieces?

----------


## VSGenesis

That is a trickle chamber. Google the purpose for that.

You have added substrate that would give a place for the bb to colonise. Please take picture of ohf without the pad. 

How long has this cycling gone on for? To be honest, all i have to say after all that, if really the cr are not enough, please add more as recommended by wongce and one last thing is patience. Wait another week to two. 

Dont recall cycling having so much work. -_-"

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## kotaaro

ok noted.

sure, will take a picture when im home tonight.

cycling has been going on for around 6 weeks or so...? yes i don't think cycling is that tough as well...

what to do? learn and improve.

----------


## wongce

> That is a trickle chamber. Google the purpose for that.
> 
> You have added substrate that would give a place for the bb to colonise. Please take picture of ohf without the pad. 
> 
> How long has this cycling gone on for? To be honest, all i have to say after all that, if really the cr are not enough, please add more as recommended by wongce and one last thing is patience. Wait another week to two. 
> 
> Dont recall cycling having so much work. -_-"


Vsg,i think the first problem is added too much ammonia during inital cycling, then tap water is replenishing the ammonia in the tank.No substrate to act as biomedia, Not enough aeration and biomedia...all lumped together. Haha worse case scenario...

Kotaaro, common OHF is quite shallow and might not have enough space for BB to grow. Even if you remove half of the sponge,it might still not good enough. A short cut is to bury a bunch of biomedia like in my tank( my tank is using OHf) but the buried biomedia has total of 8kg not inclusive of aquasoil...lol,but it served me well... You can see the biomedia i buried in the below link 

http://theplantedtankblog.blogspot.s...rious.html?m=1

Since you have lack of space,the alternatives i can think off are as follows
1) as per what felix mentioned, add a HOF with bio media only. 
2) use your external satelite breeding box as biofilter...add cr/biomedia into it and pump air...note: might be a bit unsighly to have something hangging at the front of the tank,maybe can shift it to somewhere less prominent
3) get more efficient CR or biomedia. A lot of brand of biomedia has good and large space for BB to grow. Some is even as large as floor area of hdb floor area with 300gm worth of biomedia,of course they are more expensive. You can opt for cheaper version as long you are satisfied with the total area written in the packaging.
4) use a air powered sponge filter in your tank...its not the best but at least better than nothing

Above is what i can think off, any bros can help out??

I need a picture of your CR layer and macro shots of CR as i suspect the CR you used is less porous or its for filtration and not efficient for biomedia.

----------


## kotaaro

thanks for the reply.

wil ltake the shots tonight. but you if notice from my pic in the prevous page, there are some which are on my substrate. 

how you know which are for filtration and which are used as biomedia?

----------


## wongce

Eh,that is a tough question,i'll try my best to answer you;for cheap canister filters, they normally comes with those solid kind of cr which is normally as first layer,those are less porous and mainly for capturing dirt prior going though filter wool etc

For those which are for biomedia, they are mostly porous or a lot of small holes namely biohome,bacteria house, eihem,mr aqua etc. Normally they will state their effective area for BB to grow etc...

Generally,porous ones are for biomedia and is a waste of money to be used to trap dirt,but no one is stopping you if you have the cash to splurge.

Solid ones are for filteration, still can be used as biomedia but less effective as the core of it is more compact and less area for BB to grow.

I hope you get what i mean and i did not confuse you..lol. Good topic for my next blog update..haha

----------


## kotaaro

thanks for the reply.

so for my case, do you see the need for me to change mine?

i still got a packet of those CR unused, and if i could fit them all or most of them into my OFH and my external breeder box i will do that. would this help to a certain extent?

----------


## Cyberkinetic

Hi Kotaaro,

how's your tank coming along?  :Smile:

----------


## RonWill

Still cycling !!!  :Laughing:

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## kotaaro

hi, thanks for asking.

Juz did a check on my ammonia level. still at around 1-2ppm.

Have added in a bag of porous CR directly into the tank last thursday as i did not realised that the ones in my OHF are the smooth ones...no wonder BB cant grow efficiently? Thanks for wongce bro regarding this.

Hopefully the wait won't be long now...

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## Cyberkinetic

I see.. good luck and plenty patience yeah!  :Smile:

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## Cyberkinetic

Hi bro, how's your cycling coming along? Been a couple of weeks since.  :Smile:

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## kotaaro

thanks for the corcern  :Very Happy: 

my tank is doing good after swapping out the smooth CR with a more porous CR.

Ammonia is now somewhere in the middle of 0 and 0.25...its so hard to distinguish most of the time...but i'm not taking any chances, since i will be away for a holiday until mid-week of next week, i'm just going to let the tank cycle for another week or so. Should give me 0 ammonia reading by next week and puffers introduced into tank by next weekend  :Smile: 

Nitrite 0, nitrate 20. did a WC a few days back due to high nitrate, was afraid ammonia level would spike, but it did not.

Seems like this time round my tank is finally ready. FINALLY!  :Very Happy:

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## RonWill

Good gawd.... FINALLY!! I don't think we've had anyone in here having so much issues with tank cycling but yep, glad to hear it's all good. It would be best if you stop fiddling with the tank, media, etc and refrain from dosing additives and stuffs that might lead to parameters swaying off again. (in other words, keep those itchy fingers in your pocket!!  :Grin: )

Have a good holiday and enjoy yourself! Much deserved rest after the ordeal you've been through  :Laughing:

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## Cyberkinetic

Haha... congrats! I think you've acquired the skill of "patience" as well.  :Well done:

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## wongce

Uncle kotaaro,dont forget my coffee...

Do share cute puffer pictures when they are ready...

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## felix_fx2

> Haha... congrats! I think you've acquired the skill of "patience" as well.


He should have acquired the test kit expert badge. Hehe.
Must have been testing everyday.

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## kotaaro

alrite tank's parameters hav nv been better for me. 

ammonia 0

nitrite 0

nitrate 10.

Bought 3 figure of 8 puffers, comm-ing them with my current 3 platys. hopefully the puffers will not be aggresive towards them, i still need them to clean up whatever my puffers cant finish at times  :Very Happy: 

Just one thing, can i go stir my substrate during WC or cleaning?

I tried doing that yesterday, but only a portion of my substrate, and i actually saw this very thin worm! around 1 cm or so. What are those? Will they be harmful to my fishes in the long run??

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## RonWill

> Just one thing, can i go stir my substrate during WC or cleaning? I tried doing that yesterday, but only a portion of my substrate...


 No hard & fast rules but if you really REALLY have to do it, use a proper gravel cleaner (siphon type). That way, you remove detritus, gunk and remove water for water change as well.

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## markus92

haha wow u really test super often.. if u want to add live plants i suggest putting them in a quarantine tank first and diping them in anti bacteria solutions first if u want to keep ur mind at east  :Smile:

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## markus92

Good luck  :Smile:

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## kotaaro

> No hard & fast rules but if you really REALLY have to do it, use a proper gravel cleaner (siphon type). That way, you remove detritus, gunk and remove water for water change as well.


thanks but what do you mean by siphon type? where my gravel WON'T get siphon out of the tank when i do vacuuming? like there's a holding area at the vacuum where the pores are not big enough for the gravel to go through but only the wastes? 

if yes how much do these costs? 




> haha wow u really test super often.. if u want to add live plants i suggest putting them in a quarantine tank first and diping them in anti bacteria solutions first if u want to keep ur mind at east


i already bought the test kits, so why not test often during cycling? haha. going to monitor for a few more weeks. once everything stabilizes, can test less often  :Smile: 


Anyway, does anyone know about the worm-like thingy in my substrate? not alot of them, just saw one or two. harmful?

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## felix_fx2

Is it the string like white color worm?
Not harmful actually, guppies and platies have them as snacks.

Those Ron mention not costly, think the dymax ones are even less then $10.

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## kotaaro

yes it is, string/line-like white color worms, very thin.

cool, good to know that it's not harmful.

Thanks, will go search for gravel siphon.

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## Cyberkinetic

Actually i had a lot of "living things" in my tank before i introduce fish in. After the fish went in, I can't find any of these "living things" anymore. Probably ended up in the fish stomach or they are REALLY that good in hiding...  :Smile: 

Happy that your tank finally cycled properly. Congrats.  :Smile:

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## kotaaro

haha thanks cyberkinetic bro  :Smile: 

you were also one of the more patient ones towards my thread. good to know that your tank is doing well too! and yes, Seaview is also one of my favourite shops as of now  :Smile: 

wongce bro also of course  :Smile: 

Anyway, will post some pics soon! 

My 2ft tank now has 3 Figure of 8 puffers, 3 platys and 1 neon tetra (i think). Even though they are great cleaners of what my puffers cant finish, it seems a little too crowded and messy at some time...wanted to remove all of them once my puffers are here initially, but i realised that during cycling phase, i fed them everyday and they even grew bigger!

But if any bros here don't mind to take over my platys and ?neon tetra? (1 inch fish with a thick black line across the length of the body), i'm more than willing to part with them.

if not i would need to throw*glup* at some point of time. Can i return these fishes to the LFS where i bought them from?

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## felix_fx2

> Actually i had a lot of "living things" in my tank before i introduce fish in. After the fish went in, I can't find any of these "living things" anymore. Probably ended up in the fish stomach or they are REALLY that good in hiding... 
> 
> Happy that your tank finally cycled properly. Congrats.


Congrats. You can join my club.
Planted "boon" tank.  :Smile: 

It was swarming with boon until I added 2 juvenile platy.

Kotaro, you able to post in buy sell already? Else you can whatsapp your friends or wait for people looking for certain fish.

Do your puffers whack MTS ?

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## kotaaro

yes i'm able to post in buy/sell. will do so soon  :Smile: 

i don't have MTS for them, i only self-breed normal water/pond snails for them. 

They whack till nothing left, sometimes not even shells  :Very Happy:

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## kotaaro

another thing, i currently have 1 otto in my tank. read online that they prefer groups of 3-4? is that a must?

My tank has got some brown algea forming here and there, and after reading up, i found out that otos and SAE are the better ones?

Should i get more otos for now? Or can i comm oto and SAE? Because oto is kinda....ugly to look at  :Razz:

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## Rexxer

Sorry to hijack your thread. My tank is been flooded for 2 weeks but got hair algae boom. So I remove all water n black out for 2 days. I have now reflooded my tank for 4 days and tested water today. Ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0 and nitrate 0. 
Does it mean that cycling have not started?
Thanks

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## Cyberkinetic

I've 2 otos and they are always busy running around the tank. I kind of like them for the excellent work cleaning up the algae on the tank walls.however recently I find that they are not as productive..not sure if it's to do with me feeding them with the sinking pellets meant for the corys. enough to eat so not doing the algae job now. 

I was reading that the SAE are good jumpers, should have some cover to prevent them out of the water. Not sure how true though.




> another thing, i currently have 1 otto in my tank. read online that they prefer groups of 3-4? is that a must?
> 
> My tank has got some brown algea forming here and there, and after reading up, i found out that otos and SAE are the better ones?
> 
> Should i get more otos for now? Or can i comm oto and SAE? Because oto is kinda....ugly to look at

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## Cyberkinetic

New tank setup? Size? Nature of setup? I think tank usually takes longer time to cycle completely. 
I think you should give more info so it'll be easier for the folks to advise you accordingly.




> Sorry to hijack your thread. My tank is been flooded for 2 weeks but got hair algae boom. So I remove all water n black out for 2 days. I have now reflooded my tank for 4 days and tested water today. Ammonia 0.25, nitrite 0 and nitrate 0. 
> Does it mean that cycling have not started?
> Thanks

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## Rexxer

Yes it's a new 2ft iwagumi setup. Using 2213 canister filter. Currently got some mature mini fissiden on mesh and one on lava rock from my old tank. Oh also some frogbits, they grow quite fast. I did add some BW bacter crystal bb to speed up the process. I am using seachem prime for chlorine removal. Did 20% water change for the 1st 2days, today is 4th day.
Should I add some fish food for ammonia?

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## Cyberkinetic

I'm no expert, but I suppose you are trying fishless cycling? 

It will take weeks before the tank will be cycled I think. Fish food for source of ammonia yes, but maybe you may want to try putting the fish food in a mesh bag or something, else it will be rotting all over in your tank. Not a pretty sight. 

Again... Patience... Patience... and more of it..  :Smile:  Good luck.

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## Rexxer

Yes, I am trying fishless cycle

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