# General > Member's Lounge > Photography >  Need recomendation on DSLR camera

## Shadow

Hi All,

I'm thinking to buy DSLR camera on the coming sitex (end of the month).

After some windows shopping at Sim Lim and funan, I decided to give my self budget of around S$1200, which is enough for Canon EOS400D with kit lens.

Other model with similar price are (but not sure if it is with kit lens):
Nikon D40X
Olympus E-510
Samsung GX-10
Sony DSLR-A100

Did some searcing on camera review at "DPreview" and except Olympus and Samsung which no indepth review, the other 3 brand are highly recomended. Since I'm a newbie, I do not know what else should I look for. 

Any recomendation?

Thanks in advance

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## benny

Robert,

I think most of your choices are excellent cameras. The Canon and Nikon options are well supported with accessories and service.

Personally, most of us here use Canon as there is an informal group using the same system and it's actually very easy to get advice specific to aquatic photography. However, you can definitely achieve the same results with the other brands as well. Perhaps a trip to the shop will help you make a better decision after you get a feel of the cameras.

Cheers,

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## uklau

I'm a die hard fan of Nikon. Reliable & durable. So, I'm not in the position to advise you  :Grin: .

For camera, always go for Canon or Nikon & you'll never go wrong. How I wish I can also put up the same post as you  :Sad: .

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## wasabi8888

Nikon Nikon Nikon!!!!

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## valice

No NIKON vs CANON debates in AQ!!!!  :Laughing: 
But of course Canon will always win lar.  :Laughing:  :Blah: 

Jokes aside, go down to the shops and try out the cameras. Most of the time, comfort and ease of use wins over all reviews or recommendations. I chose Canon because I don't like the controls and feel of the Nikons. But, Nikon does have better line of lenses compared with Canon.

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## wasabi8888

Oh ya..Vincent hit the nail on the head... you must hold the camera. The EOS400D was too small for my hands.. my pinkie finger was left dangling...

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## benny

Jeffrey,

Perhaps you can start a Nikon user group with luenny and balance up the equation. We do have a few Nikon users around, but not too active. Maybe with a usergroup, that will change.

By the way, I used to be a Nikon user too. It was in the old film days when Nikon's FM2 would get a nod of respect from fellow users. Then I went on to AF and was playing with the F401 and F601. I've always felt that Nikon seems to have more flash option. 

Currently, Nikon items on my watch list are D3, the 105 VR macro, the wireless twin macro flash. But.... pocket to weak to sustain such an interest.

Cheers,

p.s. would you like me to lend you a Canon 40D plus lenses?

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## valice

> p.s. would you like me to lend you a Canon 40D plus lenses?


That's POISON!  :Laughing: 

I would agree on the setting up of a Nikon user group. Stan is a Nikon user too. I believe Thio from Biotope is a Nikon user too.
It would help to have a group to exchange of items and advice. Sometimes, it is difficult to suggest certain settings to a Nikon user by a Canon user.

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## ranmasatome

Well.. first you have to decide what you want to shoot.. or what you would use the camera for and in what situations you would shoot most... then go for the brand that supports this the best.. Both Nikon and Canon are excellent choices and the differences are relatively minor....so it all boils down to what is the use for the camera.

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## Simon

I will recommend going with the main stream of the users, Canon and Nikon. Not only do you can support and help from similar brand users, getting lens to test drive before you dive into one is usually a major plus. All said and done, you have to remember and believe that what makes a photographer good lies mainly on the photographer, their equipments are just tools to help them achieve what is their intent

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## Shadow

Thanks for all the reply,

To answer ranmasatome question, I would like to take photo of my tank and fishes. I also like to take a scenery photo, old building, bridge, don't really like taking people photo  :Razz: . I'm not a heavy build so thinking to get something light.

From the above reply, seem like it is boiled down to Canon and Nikon. Hard to chose. I will go down to Best Denki, they have couples of model on show; will try it out the handling.

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## Simon

May I suggest heading to TKfoto at shaw leisure in beach road. They are very competitive in pricing. Are you looking for a interest-free purchase? most shops like tkfoto, mscolor, cathay photo have them as well.

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## wasabi8888

I echo Simon's suggestion... Tk photo is pretty good.. go early though, they close at 6pm or 7pm.

As for starting a user group, no problems about that except that I am still a novice in photography...

Benny, do not tempt me...

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## luenny

Wah, I didn't know there are so many other Nikon users here.




> Jeffrey,
> 
> Perhaps you can start a Nikon user group with luenny and balance up the equation. We do have a few Nikon users around, but not too active. Maybe with a usergroup, that will change.
> 
> Currently, Nikon items on my watch list are D3, the 105 VR macro, the wireless twin macro flash. But.... pocket to weak to sustain such an interest.


User group for Nikon and Canon? I don't even know such things exists? A usergroup would be nice but I wouldn't want to join if it's all talk about how great Nikon is and stuff like that. To me, I use Nikon because I like the way it feels and I like certain things about it like the reliability etc. I'm not going to preach what other people should use. Let's respect other people for their choices ok. If the usergroup is about exchanging shooting information, then count me in. But then, why should we limit to the brand if the aim is to make ourselves better photographers?

And Benny, don't tempt me. I already have 105 VR macro. Still saving up for the twin flash. Hahaha!! As for D3, I'll get it when I'm worthy for it. My current skill set only barely allow me to use my D200. Hahaha!!  :Grin:

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## luenny

> Hi All,
> 
> After some windows shopping at Sim Lim and funan, I decided to give my self budget of around S$1200, which is enough for Canon EOS400D with kit lens.
> 
> Other model with similar price are (but not sure if it is with kit lens):
> Nikon D40X
> Olympus E-510
> Samsung GX-10
> Sony DSLR-A100


I don't know about the Olympus, Samsung or Sony. Never did read up on their specs. I think if your choice is between Nikon D40X and EOS400D, I would advise you to go for the 400D. It's a better pick.

But to be sure, you need to go down to the shop (or Sitex) and hold the camera and know what it feels like to be in your hand. I've tried holding D40x before when I was testing out my 55-200mm VR lens. The camera feels like a toy. I think if you put a heavier lens like the 105mm macro VR, it'll be lop sided. Lens is too heavy for camera. And there are a lot of lens with that kind of weight that does not come with a tripod mount on the lens. To me, it's just not stable enough. Go try out all the models you have in the list before making the choice.

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## zenscape

Wait for Canon 450D which is rumored to reach our shore in Jan 08  :Grin: . 

Not suggesting you to chase after new models as it is a no-end exercise, but in view the date is drawing near and the fact that the world is raving on how good the new 40D as compared with 30D, and ironically, the prices almost the same  :Smile:  

Definitely, 450D will have some enhanced features same as 40D, and the price will not be far from 400D.

Alternatively, go to snapclub and try your luck in getting a 2nd hand 400D because most of them will be upgrading to 450D.

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## Shadow

At this moment, I'm bending toward Canon EOS400D. I like the "Integrated Cleaning System" though not sure whether it is really work. Furthermore Nikon D40X has higher noise at high ISO and less lens compatibility (something to do with lack of a focus motor in the body?).

Interestingly, DPreview compare EOS400D with D80, probably because D40X not available at that time.

The more I read the more I confuse

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## Shadow

> Wait for Canon 450D which is rumored to reach our shore in Jan 08 .


Hmm.. that new consideration, hopefully it will cause 400D cost drop  :Grin: 




> Alternatively, go to snapclub and try your luck in getting a 2nd hand 400D because most of them will be upgrading to 450D.


I was told by my colleague who are part time photographer to not to get 2nd hand camera, you never know what it has been trough.

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## Quixotic

Can I ask a few questions for the Nikon users?

Auto focus only works on D40x when using AF-S and AF-I lenses, right? For macro photography, I remember there there is only one AF-S close up lens from Nikon.

So manual focussing would be needed for other close up lenses. Do you guys actually use manual/auto focussing when using close up lenses for macro photography?

Can someone also provide pointers on why someone should be getting D40x instead of D40?

As far as I understand, D40x is of higher resolution (10 megapixels) compared to D40 (6 megapixels). However, if I do not print beyond 4x6, then the extra megapixels won't matter. 6 megapixels will suffice, right?

I also heard that D40x would fetch a higher resale price should someone wants to sell and upgrade in the future. Any other convincing points?

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## Shadow

bro are you planning to get D40X?

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## Quixotic

Me? Hehehe... yeah, looking around, finding out the options.

But Robert, at $1200, isn't that the cost of the 400D body itself? Unless you are talking about 2nd hand ones...

Edit: Oh didn't realise the price has come down, at $1200 you can get 400D kit with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II

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## wasabi8888

Personally i use both manual and auto focusing (80&#37; manual and 20% auto) when using the 105VR on my D80. It's much easier on manual than auto.

On the twin flash, can someone enlighten me on that?

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## Shadow

> Me? Hehehe... yeah, looking around, finding out the options.
> 
> But Robert, at $1200, isn't that the cost of the 400D body itself? Unless you are talking about 2nd hand ones...
> 
> Edit: Oh didn't realise the price has come down, at $1200 you can get 400D kit with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II


S$1200 is brand new with a kit lens (forgot the exact kit lense model), found it at Funan shop just beside Ajisen ramen. Other shop is also about the same price $1249 with more goodies (2x2gb CF). so more or less the same price.

Maybe price drop to anticipate 450D  :Razz: 




> Personally i use both manual and auto focusing (80&#37; manual and 20% auto) when using the 105VR on my D80. It's much easier on manual than auto.
> 
> On the twin flash, can someone enlighten me on that?


Yes please, Thinking to get flash as well, but that after decided which camera to buy

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## luenny

I use auto focusing on the 105 macro VR and manual if necessary. The good thing is that it has a M/A mode that you can switch from auto to manual by just grabbing the focusing ring and turning it. Gives a great deal of flexibility. However, as in all macro lens, AF on this lens usually means some searching before the lens is able to focus properly.

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## Shadow

Just wondering will you be able to Auto focus to some object inside the tank? I can't do this with compact camera, one of the reason I want to buy DSLR, manual focus.

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## luenny

Yeah, auto focus is ok on macro lens. They can focus on things that are both inside and outside the tank. The problem is sometimes it's a bit slower because of the frequent searching that's all.

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## benny

> User group for Nikon and Canon? I don't even know such things exists? A usergroup would be nice but *I wouldn't want to join if it's all talk about how great Nikon is and stuff like that*. To me, I use Nikon because I like the way it feels and I like certain things about it like the reliability etc. *I'm not going to preach what other people should use*. Let's respect other people for their choices ok. If the usergroup is about exchanging shooting information, then count me in. But then, why should we limit to the brand if the aim is to make ourselves better photographers?


luenny,

For us, the users group should serve to exchange tips on equipment selection (NOT brand choices), settings and setups. For brand wars and folks seeking self justification for their brand choices, we refer them to clubsnap.

Over here, we are self funded and do not have the luxury of advertising revenue, so bandwidth is precious. We won't waste it on mindless dicussions that do not value add to the community.  :Wink: 

Anyway, these groups are just informal members getting together for chit chat. We hope to open up a group where members can opt in or out themselves. Still working on it.

Cheers,

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## ccs

> On the twin flash, can someone enlighten me on that?


Maybe this?

http://www.nikon.com.sg/productitem....829-1f18c11626

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## wasabi8888

> Maybe this?
> 
> http://www.nikon.com.sg/productitem....829-1f18c11626


oohhh.. the R1... ya... i am thinking about it.. first, i am waiting for the 24-70 to come out.. really need that lens

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## luenny

> luenny,
> 
> For us, the users group should serve to exchange tips on equipment selection (NOT brand choices), settings and setups. For brand wars and folks seeking self justification for their brand choices, we refer them to clubsnap.
> 
> Over here, we are self funded and do not have the luxury of advertising revenue, so bandwidth is precious. *We won't waste it on mindless dicussions that do not value add to the community.* 
> 
> Anyway, these groups are just informal members getting together for chit chat. We hope to open up a group where members can opt in or out themselves. Still working on it.
> 
> Cheers,


Hi Benny,
That's the thing that I'm trying to avoid. I think it's mindless too.  :Smile: 

Ok then it'll be good to have a user group as long as it's not about branding. But I still don't see why we should separate it to Nikon users and Canon users etc. If it's not about brand wars, can't we just have 1 larger user group? That way, people who doesn't use either Canon or Nikon can also join.

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## Shadow

Maybe there are some tips that apply only to canon or nikon? Tweaking that only apply to one specific brand. If that the case then it would be good to seperate, or maybe add another general user group  :Grin:

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## Simon

I believe one of the reason could be the support that particular group can provide. But I supposed if that is the case, if there is just one usergroup, it will come up as the same thing. Having brand usergroup and improve bonding and cohension among the users? it is also less confusing for different user base to help the user. Imagine having to sieve through all the questions if both users are combined together

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## benny

> Hi Benny,
> That's the thing that I'm trying to avoid. I think it's mindless too. 
> 
> Ok then it'll be good to have a user group as long as it's not about branding. But I still don't see why we should separate it to Nikon users and Canon users etc. If it's not about brand wars, can't we just have 1 larger user group? That way, people who doesn't use either Canon or Nikon can also join.


I'm glad we think along the same lines.  :Smile: 

The user group is to allow us to go straight to the settings and give specific help. The different group will still share the same techniques, but settings will differ. For example, in a Canon group, in the event that some one saw a spawning behaviour and need to grab some shots within the next few hours, that's when the benefit of the brand specific user group will come it. I have given step by step instructions over the phone before and it works. That's only possible because I'm familar with the Canon interface. 

To be honest, *this user group will benefit new users a lot more as they struggle with the menus to get the correct settings.* But once they learn the ropes, the group will cease to serve it's purpose. Then the wider group discussing techniques and critique of pictures will be more relevant.

Perhaps we should just lump all into a Aquatic Photography Group and have a few Canon/Nikon leaders with a few senior users.

Cheers,

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## illumnae

wish i could be an aquatic photographer too...but my hands shake too much =(

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## benny

> wish i could be an aquatic photographer too...but my hands shake too much =(


It doesn't matter. With the right setup, you'll still get sharp pictures everytime.

Cheers,

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## luenny

Cool! I'm up for the idea of having an Aquatic Photography Group with a few seniors for each brand (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc). Best part about this is we can organize trips to go take photos. Hahaha!!  :Grin: 

So, who's using which camera? I'm using Nikon D200. (Any D300 or D3 users here yet??  :Grin: )

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## Goondoo

> Cool! I'm up for the idea of having an Aquatic Photography Group with a few seniors for each brand (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc). Best part about this is we can organize trips to go take photos. Hahaha!! 
> 
> So, who's using which camera? I'm using Nikon D200. (Any D300 or D3 users here yet?? )


D70s  :Opps:

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## illumnae

> It doesn't matter. With the right setup, you'll still get sharp pictures everytime.
> 
> Cheers,


wow really? so far every picture i take is blurred to some extent or other, and i don't really want to have to lug a tripod around for every shoot  :Laughing:  guess it's time to start saving up!

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## Shadow

Do you use compact camera? if so, it maybe because your camera unable to focus inside the tank. Those happen with my compact camera (Fuji F11). It is always auto focus to the front glass instead of what inside the tank.

If your hand shaking then you might want to take photo with higher ISO.

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## trident

luenny,
can I join?am using fuji s6500fd. prosumer camera.
no budget for dslr. 
richard

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## valice

> if so, it maybe because your camera unable to focus inside the tank. Those happen with my compact camera (Fuji F11). 
> 
> If your hand shaking then you might want to take photo with higher ISO.


Not exactly true on this part. Number enemy of aquatic photography is lighting.
With compacts that do not give you manual setting, you will have a problem of the camera automatically giving you slow shutter speeds to compensate for the low lights. Therefore, shaky hands or moving objects will give you the blurred pictures.

Increasing ISO will definitely help to compensate for the low lights. However, best method is still improving light source and also knowing your subjects and the capability of the equipment.

Taking the example of Benny's camera-phone, the subjects were slow moving and the positions they were at has alot of lights. Therefore, it came out brilliant.

And when he meant by correct setup, it is with much more lights than what the conventional tank lighting can provide.

Great to see the Aquatic Photography Group coming back up!  :Jump for joy: 




> luenny,
> can I join?am using fuji s6500fd. prosumer camera.
> no budget for dslr. 
> richard


All are welcome Richard!  :Grin:  Don't need to have a DSLR. Prosumer, compacts are all welcome! We can all learn together.

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## illumnae

great tips vincent...thanks =) looks like i'll have to invest in alot more lights for my tank just for photography purposes

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## ranmasatome

Well... they aren't awesome but its just to prove a point... here are some pictures of mine...all take with a compact camera...and some additional lighting... :Grin: 

Gourami


Shrimp


Tetra - by the way.. i would love to reshoot these fellas but i've only ever seen them once in singapore....guess what it is?? haha.. :Grin: 


Local Goby that i found..


Plecos..


And even plants..


no excuses guys..

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## eeeeemo

hello im not good at photography though id love to pick it up soon. no point having such beautiful pets but no one to share with =)

heres a pic of my fish. also taken with a lousy digi cam. *Don't know* prosumer or not.

olympus C730 3.2megapix only!!!

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## luenny

> luenny,
> can I join?am using fuji s6500fd. prosumer camera.
> no budget for dslr. 
> richard


Sure Richard. The more the merrier. Got so many experts around here you can ask questions. Best part is you can go influence your brother to upgrade his camera and pass his current one to you. :Grin: 

Hey guys, let's start poisoning Richard to get a DSLR ... hehehe!! :Laughing:

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## luenny

Ok, since people are showing the shots taken on compact cameras. Here's mine. No PP done here except to resize to the forum's allowable size. I didn't bother about PP when I was using compact. Picture 2, 3 and 4 were taken without flash. Only existing aquarium lights. Pic 1 is with flash (that's what the EXIF info says).

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## illumnae

looks like i'm the only one who sucks with phototaking =(

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## wasabi8888

Include me in the cirlce of 'phototaking suckers'....

Luenny, what is the pleco in your 2nd pic? I like it..

I think we super OT

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## luenny

That's a leopard frog pleco. I think it is L134.

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## trident

Luenny, 
I guess more is better and we can focus on shooting fishes, which is what I shoot most of the time. Here's a shot of what the Fuji S6500fd can do.

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## eeeeemo

besides playing with ISO settings how to improve shots for fast moving fishes?

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## trident

Luenny, 
no need to poison me, I already wanted to get a DSLR for a long time, just no budget. 

eeeeemo, I find it quite difficult to shoot small fast swimming fishes especially with compact or prosumer. The focusing is slower than a DSLR. Only way to improve is have very bright light, open aperture to the biggest, focus at a place where you think they will go, lock focus and when they are there, shoot. I do that, I hope that helps.

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## Shadow

What I usually do is focus the camera to some object about the same distant with the object you want to photo. You can do this by pressing the button half way (not sure all compact camera have this function). The drawback is your finger might get cramp because pressing half way for long time while waiting for the fish to be in the right posse  :Razz:

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## ranmasatome

to get the fastest focus.. dont use auto focus.. either it is compact or dslr... you never shoot fishes with autofocus.. all focus is manual and done moving the camera most of the time. so it doesn't really matter whether its dslr or compact...whatever autofocus you use will loose out to the human body...you also dont want the biggest aperture.. because that decreases your DOF..
Generally what you want is small aperture, lots of lights.

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## luenny

> besides playing with ISO settings how to improve shots for fast moving fishes?


Playing with ISO settings is not really a good way to shoot faster objects. Only use it as a last resort (or if you have a D3 that can allow you to shoot decent pictures with ISO6400).  :Grin:  Otherwise, high ISO may give you noise (depending on which camera you use).

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## Simon

use remote flash with high sync. more lights will make your life easier

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## luenny

> use remote flash with high sync. more lights will make your life easier


Talking about remove flash. Does anybody know where to get a flash clamp?

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## Simon

clamp for flash? for what purpose? and how about do you want to mount the flash?

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## luenny

I was thinking to clamp it to the top of the tank and shoot down at an angle. (Open top tank)

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## Simon

just handhold the flash  :Smile:

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## illumnae

what i see some of the pros here do is to get a piece of clear perspex, put it over the tank and place your flash facing down on it

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## luenny

Yeah I thought of that too but I thought a flash clamp would allow you to change angle a bit. Well of course, I don't know anything about flash clamp. Never see the actual product before. Alternatively is to get a bracket cause the camera and the lens is a bit too heavy to hold with one hand.

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## ranmasatome

are you using a camera grip? or one of those holster looking like things? Those help a lot!! Also..if you want nice lighting.. try not to get clear perspex... depending on the shot and subject.. it can vary from a tupperware to a white piece of perspex

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## luenny

I think to safe myself the trouble I'll just get a bracket and mount the flash there. That way I can bring it out for other macro shots as well. 

By the way, sitex is on next week. Anybody going down to grab a new cam??

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## Simon

honestly, the prices at such exhibition isn't very attractive, probably can get better prices else where

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## Shadow

I'm going down there to check some Camera price as well as grab some SD card.

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## valice

No point checking out camera prices at exhibitions. Like Simon say, those at the shops will be cheaper. And usually, the promotions at the exhibitions are island-wide.

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## luenny

Robert, when are you going? I feel itchy, want to go see see.

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## mordrake

anyone using canon 40D?
was looking at the 400D but alot of pple have issues with underexposure as well as slower focus in low light conditions

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## Shadow

o.. is it  :Sad:

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## luenny

Underexposure for 400D too? I heard the same thing about D200 too. But I still need to manually lower the exposure sometimes.  :Laughing:

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## valice

I'm using 40D.
So far not much issue on the exposure.
As for 400D, I have friends who complaint about the need to increase 1/3 stop to compensate for that problem.

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## mordrake

> I'm using 40D.
> So far not much issue on the exposure.
> As for 400D, I have friends who complaint about the need to increase 1/3 stop to compensate for that problem.


really keen on the 40D pending approval from CO  :Opps: 
you reckon kit1 lens (18-55mm) good enough or should i get the kit 2 lens (17-85mm)?

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## hwchoy

its so stupid to get the kit lens with a body like the 40D. its like buying a benz fitted with Kumho tyres.

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## mordrake

> its so stupid to get the kit lens with a body like the 40D. its like buying a benz fitted with Kumho tyres.


it's part of the packages avail, so trying to get some feedback.
i can also choose to get just the body and get a separate lens. any recommendations that's ard $600?

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## valice

The kit 1 is the new 18-55 IS version or the Mk II version. If it is the Mk II version, then it will be better to go straight from the 17-85mm which will give you slightly more mileage.

Is this your first DSLR? Just to let you know, getting one is not the end of a problem, but it is the start of a HUGE problem.  :Laughing:

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## ranmasatome

don't say.. i dont even own one and i already have a huge problem

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## wasabi8888

> I'm using 40D.
> So far not much issue on the exposure.
> As for 400D, I have friends who complaint about the need to increase 1/3 stop to compensate for that problem.


Waaa... vincent... upgraded already... :Smile:

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## wasabi8888

Anyone knows whether D3 is out huh? And the new lenses as well

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## StanChung

Wah! so late to this discussion!!! But a very gooood one.  :Very Happy: . 

Luenny, there's some sucker clamp for those car windshield mounted card readers that can be modded to hold a flash. Only RM10 or so. Pretty tough too.

If it's small fishes then it's quite easy to just hold it or use a clear glass. But multiple flashes for whole tank shots are a bit complicated. I saw the PFK one by George Farmer and it was pretty cool how they set it up to shoot a small tank.

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## luenny

Hi Stan,
I've decided to get a flash bracket. That way I can take it out for macro shots too - since I don't have the $$$ for twin flash yet. 

Hi Jeffrey,
D3 is out already. Wanna get one??

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## Shadow

> its so stupid to get the kit lens with a body like the 40D. its like buying a benz fitted with Kumho tyres.


Is it stupid to get 400D with kit lens (18-55mm)? The different is only $100

Another question is what to look for if I want to buy the external flash?

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## hwchoy

I would rather spend that $100 on an EF 50mm ƒ/1.8.

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## wasabi8888

> Hi Stan,
> I've decided to get a flash bracket. That way I can take it out for macro shots too - since I don't have the $$$ for twin flash yet. 
> 
> Hi Jeffrey,
> D3 is out already. Wanna get one??


Luenny

Holding out on D3 first. Want to see local reviews. But i want to get the 24-70..

Are you getting the D3 and/or the new lenses?

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## luenny

Jeffrey,
Nope, I wish I can get the D3 but can't even afford D300. That's why I bought a second hand D200. *Sigh!*. Don't think I'll be getting any more lenses yet. I may want to save up for a 70 - 200 f2.8 (not new) but then still KIV.

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## wasabi8888

> Jeffrey,
> Nope, I wish I can get the D3 but can't even afford D300. That's why I bought a second hand D200. *Sigh!*. Don't think I'll be getting any more lenses yet. I may want to save up for a 70 - 200 f2.8 (not new) but then still KIV.


hmmm... i never liked the 70-200. It's too huge for me (not that I am small). But I cannot imagine bringing that monster overseas. I do not even dare to take it lest everyone stares at me...

I stick to 18-200 when I need that focal range. Recently, my friend travelled to Spain with 17-35, 50mm, 70-200 and a tripod. He almost died carrying the equipment. And he's big and tall by the way.

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## luenny

Yeah, it's big. You're right about that. But I've seen what it can do and it's very tempting. Especially with a fix f2.8 at 200mm. Hmm .... tempting. Hahaha!!

By the way, you know why I only posted so few pictures of my zoo trip? I almost died carrying the equipments too. Most of the time I'm seating on the floor resting ... hahaha!!

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## StanChung

Awww, it's not that bad. I walked large part of London carrying an 80-200 f2.8, 35-70 f2.8 and a 20mm f2.8 + cheapo tripod. It was heavy but having a good pair of walking sneakers is a good idea. Forget about those flat soled fancy sneakers. I threw mine away after one day there because i got cramps walking. I'm not a big sized guy. Used to be lanky.[now paunchy] :Grin: 

Nice to have fancy cameras and lenses. Makes it cool to bring it out to snap pictures but the pressure is also on to perform and bring out the best the equipment can offer.  :Smile:

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## Shadow

> I would rather spend that $100 on an EF 50mm /1.8.


are you talking about "Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II"? Read the review at photozone, seems to be good fix focal lense. However after more reading, I confuse even more. Mainly because I saw "Canon EF 50mm f/2.5 macro", what the different between macro and non macro lense?  :Confused:

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## luenny

Stan,
You're in better shape than I am. Maybe someday I'll pick up the stamina again. I used to lug 3 SLR around in the film days. Now, sigh! Getting old.

Robert,
Basically macro lens allow you to go nearer to the subject and still able to focus on them. Non-macro, you can't go too near. So macro lens is good for taking small things. But not only that, it can also perform like normal lens and take bigger things too. Besides that, the other difference is the price.  :Grin:

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## Shadow

so what make macro lense allow you to go nearer? I though it is because of the focal length, that what confuse me because both of them is 50mm only the other one have "macro" on it. I guess my understanding on the whole idea is wrong.

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## hwchoy

the ability to focus closely has nothing to do with the focal length, but rather the internal construction of the lens element groups. it is more complex to design a lens that can focus closely without distortion, hence the price differential amongst the lenses.

here is an excellent place to read about the lenses http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/index.html

canon has four 50mm lenses: EF 50mm ƒ/1.2L, EF 50mm ƒ/1.4, EF 50mm ƒ/1.8, and EF 50mm ƒ/2.5 macro.

the focal length of a lens (whether zoom or prime) governs the field of view, and also the magnification AT A GIVEN FOCUSING DISTANCE. this is an optical property of the lens.

the reason a macro lens can present very small object is its ability to focus at a very short distance, which is a design property.

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## valice

> Is it stupid to get 400D with kit lens (18-55mm)? The different is only $100
> 
> Another question is what to look for if I want to buy the external flash?


Whether a purchase is stupid or smart depends on your usage of the equipment and what you want to shoot.

Just like buying plants for the tank, lenses can sometimes be hit by collectivitis. So they just buy and buy and upgrade and upgrade. But in the end those lenses just stayed in the dry-box after a couple of uses. Kind of waste of money imo.

So sit down, think about it, and if need be, borrow from fellow photographers to try out the equipment before plunging in for the buy. Quite a number of Canon and Nikon users here, so should have no problem trying out things from both camps. Money difficult to earn... So think and try before buy.

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## wasabi8888

I second Vincent on that... I know exactly what he means...no, not me.. thank goodness all my purchases of lenses are wise choices...for now at least

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## Shadow

That is the problem, I never even hold DSLR before (except at the shop  :Razz: ). I'm totaly lost just by looking at the list of lens available  :Knockout:  One think certail is the 18-55mm is bad according to the review.

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## luenny

I think $100 for a 18-55mm lens is pretty reasonable. You can use it as a start. If you later find that it is not good, you can sell it away. Or if budget is not a concern, then jump straight to those high quality expensive lens.  :Grin:

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## Shadow

As Vincent said "Money difficult to earn..." so I want to get the right think from the start  :Laughing:  Which doesn't seem to be possible due the fact that I'm new to this whole DSLR thing.

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## StanChung

Then recommend you get non-marque lenses-cheaper if price is a problem. Consider a Tamron 17-50 f2.8 http://www.tamron.com/lenses/prod/1750_diII_a016.asp
That would get you a all purpose work camera. It's an apsc lens so it's compatible with most Digital cameras now incl. the Canon 40D.

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## luenny

One thing I learn is there is no such thing as "The right lens". One lens can be good for something but bad for something else. It all depends on what you want to take. The 18-55mm lens is good because it fits most normal usage with some degree of flexibility and it is cheap but downside is quality and it may not be able to take certain photos that you want like macro. And that is the main reason I got a DSLR (because of the ability to change lens). So, yeah, I'll say that lens is pretty reasonable if you're just starting off. If you already have in mind what you want to take, go buy the lens(es) you need but then they are most likely to be more expensive than this one.  :Grin:  Alternatively, you can get the one that Stan recommends. I have one of those. Pretty good for conventional shooting and quality is better too (and you get f2. :Cool:  but the price is about 6 times the price of the $100.

Oh, one more reason to start off with cheaper lens first is that in case you loose interest, it is less of a waste. :Laughing:

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## budak

on hindsight (after 2 years of making do), i would have ditched the kit lens and gotten this pair: 17-40mm f4.0 L USM (which is now my walk-about lens as it is superb for landscape and street photography even at low light) + 24-105mm f4.0 L IS USM, which would cover virtually every purpose except for macro and long range telephoto (birds etc). Or the alternate duo of 24-70mm f2.8L USM + the 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM....

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## Simon

Marc

do consider this range 17-40, 24-105, 100-400 & 180 macro  :Smile:  add the 10-22 if you have more to burn

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## StanChung

Standards change for the better IMHO. Even our own!

Some points to take note.
Cameras improve a lot year by year so this item is probably not a good idea to chase if you have a limited budget.
Lens quality improve only very little year by year so it's ok to buy a really good one that you like.

Some rambling here about 50mm's
Having just a 50mm for me is very limiting. You may want to pick up an additional lens like a good 17-50 or 28-70 just for variety. Then why buy the 50 in the 1st place? lol. 

50mm i lowlight is not particularly impressive because of the low dof and normal perspective. [better somewhat with apsc crop though]
It's great for manual focussing and AF because scene looks very bright through the viewfinder. You can also make it into a macro by reversing it or adding an extension tube.

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## hwchoy

budak got it spot on. myself spent a bundle on the EF-S 17-85, it performed horribly at the wide-end, which is the whole point (to get wide angle shots) of getting a 17mm zoom to begin with.

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