# Planted Tanks > Beginners' Corner >  Help me with my new 4ft tank!!

## Ryan Peh

Hey so this is my first post and i just got into this fish keeping hobby a few weeks ago and i was fortunate enough to be able to upgrade from a 1 gallon nano tank to a 4ft 120 gallon tank.
My 1 gallon only has 4 neon tetras and a plant that i dont even know the name of. 
So anyway, my friend is giving me a 4ft tank with overflow filter system and i've been unable to decide what i want to put in it.

Is it easier for a beginner to go with:

A) 1 small silver arowana, 1 or 2 small spotted gar and maybe some plecos or clown loaches or a catfish or whatever else i can put as a bottom feeder (help recommend please!!!) and doing some hardscaping with rocks and driftwood with some plants and moss. 

or 

B) Aquascaping with lots of plants with: 12 neon tetras, 12 some other tetra, 6 oto, and maybe some rasboras 10 red cherry shrimps and 10 amano shrimps

PLEASE HELPPPPPP. i need to know which is easier to maintain and the pros and cons of each!! 
As for (B), i have done a lot of research on how to keep those fishes, but i don't really know much about keeping predator fishes in (A)....

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## fireblade

hi,

Not advisable to have planted tank with overflow filter system if you intend to inject CO2.. but some people managed to have good growth.
depends on the thickness of your 4 ft tank, if too thin, not advisable to keep big fish as they might break the glass..
it really depends on what you want... 
maybe keep small fish, then tired already keep predator fish and the small fish can be the initial food for the predator fish.

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## Griffith DreamWalker

If you don't know how to care for predator fishes, don't get them. Plecos, arowana, gar and some catfishes will grow to a large size, which a 120G tank cannot support. Keep some basic fishes before getting into the monster fish hobby. B is the best choice(or a community tank)

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## fireblade

for option A - be prepared to feed live food or market prawn or crickets . prepare to do more often water changes too... once neglected, think disasters will happen.. also must plan properly what media to use for the filter. Big fish die compared to small fish is very different. also must think of how to dispose.

Option B might need more water change during initial setup and if combating algae... it also depends how deep you want to dive into it... else get some rocks, wood and soil minimum planting and you will be good to go  :Smile:

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## Ryan Peh

If i don't put too much plants and only put like sand, soil, rocks, driftwood and some moss, would i still need CO2 injected in the tank? how thick should the glass be if i'm gonna keep silver arowana, spotted gar and red tail catfish which are all below 7inches?

Also, i know the 4 ft tank might be a little too small once the fishes in A grows. But i was intending to buy them when they are really small and once they get bigger either i give them away or sell them off! 

Redtail catfish, arowana and spotted gar can leave together right? 

Will the catfish be counted as a cleaning crew?

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## fireblade

if they grow big and you can sell off or give away then shouldn't be any problem..
as for CO2, it all depends... I think you won't need CO2 for these plants...

if you can keeping redtail catfish, I will suggest you keep something that is bigger than its mouth .. if not it might become fish food for redtail catfish.

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## Ryan Peh

What other catfish or plecos are appropriate for a tank with silver arowana and spotted gars?

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## Urban Aquaria

For option A, if you are keeping fishes that will eventually outgrow the tank, then its not so optimal... maybe can consider medium sized fishes instead which can live in that tank size permanently.

Option B is perfect for small fishes and shrimps as they will have alot of space and water volume to swim and graze about, so its like a paradise for them. You can stock alot more small fishes and shrimps in a tank that large... easily hundreds of small fishes and shrimps. A large group of rummy nose tetras schooling across a 4ft tank can look very impressive.

If you use mainly low demand plants like moss, anubias, java ferns etc, then no need to inject Co2 (minimal or no ferts and only use low-medium light), it can be a simple low-maintenance planted setup.

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## Ryan Peh

One of my main worry for option B is that it will be very tough for a beginner like me to aquascape the entire 4ft tank and make it look nice... also i'm not intending on injecting co2 and i was wondering if that will make the plants less nice because they are not supplied fully with their nutrients?

I'm also kinda leaning towards option A because it's easier to hardscape such a big tank and having monster fishes has more action in the tank during live feeding HAHA. What can i put in a tank with silver arowana and spotted gar?

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## Ryan Peh

Okay after much considerations, I've decided to go with option B.
I intend to use ADA soil with a layer of plant fertiliser below it and there will be one small corner of the tank filled with sand instead which I intend to use that area as a shrimp paradise by putting cholla cactus wood and feed the shrimp pallets there so that all the shrimps will gather at that spot! 

I'm gonna put Danios as my cycling fish and my tank will be mainly filled with tetras, Oto and red cherry shrimps after that. 
Anyone has any suggestion on what else can go with this community of fishes? 

Also my tank would be planted with mainly Java moss on the rocks, maybe hair grass as my carpet plant and a few taller sword plants at the back. Would I need CO2 for this?? 
I was thinking of starting without co2 then only buying it if I see the plants are not growing well. 

Lemme know what else I can include in my tank!! 


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## AQMS

For option B,how much do you willing to spend?
You need good lighting,good pump for circulation,i definitely recommend co2 tank, it is a 1 time purchase and you can get second hand at the market place.

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## Ryan Peh

I'm getting a second hand 4x2x2 tank with built in overflow filter system with cabinet from a friend. 

I'm expecting like $50 for the soil, $20(?) for a layer of fertiliser and a small amount of sand(for the shrimps), $30-$40 for rocks and driftwood. 
And I'm keeping aside around $200 in case I need the co2 tank and the other equipments like co2 drop checker. 

But the biggest problem I have on deciding whether I'm getting co2 is the fact that I don't know which one to get and I have no idea how to install it. Even after watching many tutorial videos I'm still confused about how to run it since there's so many types of CO2 diffusers. I'd probably go with inline diffuser but again, I don't know how to install it 



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## ren_hao

> I'm expecting like $50 for the soil, $20(?) for a layer of fertiliser and a small amount of sand(for the shrimps), $30-$40 for rocks and driftwood. 
> And I'm keeping aside around $200 in case I need the co2 tank and the other equipments like co2 drop checker. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you are underestimating the cost. $50 is unlikely to be enough for soil to let plants take root.........

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## AQMS

I suggest that go around the LFSs and have a look around first before you start,check out the price and think it over.
For 4 feet, $50 will buy you sand not soil to cover the tank.

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## Urban Aquaria

Java moss and most sword plants can grow in low tech tank environments too, so Co2 injection is optional for them. Hairgrass can also grow in low-tech environment but their growth will tend to be much slower without Co2 injection. You could consider other types of carpet plants like MC or glosso which fare better in non-Co2 injected tanks. I guess you just have to adjust your plant growth expectations and setup according to what equipment configuration you plan to use.

That being said, even with low demand slower growing plants, they will still benefit from Co2 injection (overall growth will be abit faster and abit better), so its still a good idea to get a Co2 system if you have the budget. If you buy a full Co2 system package from a good LFS, their staff will help you set it up and show you how to use it properly.

As for soil quantity, you have to calculate the amount you need based on the tank base area and soil height. For example, 120cm x 60cm base area x average 5cm soil height (sloping higher to the back) = 36,000 / 1,000 = 36 liters of soil.

Based on that volume calculation, if you are going for ADA Amazonia aquasoil (the default soil most aquascapers use), that will be 4 x 9liter bags... at $35-$40 per bag, it'll be $140-$160 just on soil alone (some LFS may have discounts so can save abit from there). Sand is much cheaper so just calculate how much you need to fill the front areas and get a large bag of the sand color tone you prefer (look at the ADA gallery tank aquascapes to get an idea of how to create layouts with sand banks/valley paths in front with soil behind). 

No choice... larger tank = more materials required = more cost.

If your layout uses more sand and less soil, then you can reduce the overall cost. In such setups there will be more plants tied to rocks and wood instead and put on the sand, rather than planted in the soil. So its all in your planning process.

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## Ryan Peh

Wow you guys are super helpful!! Thank you so much! The things yall wrote are so much clearer than what I've been searching all over google!! 

I think I'm gonna go with more soil and only a little sand for the shrimp area! So I guess I have to increase my soil budget and I'll let the plants grow in a low tech tank first. If I see the need then I'll get co2. 

One more question, if I get co2, chances are i would need to start dosing fertilisers too right? That's what I read from the other threads in this forum where the people are dosing daily and weekly! 

Oh ya and what are MC?? 


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## Urban Aquaria

> One more question, if I get co2, chances are i would need to start dosing fertilisers too right? That's what I read from the other threads in this forum where the people are dosing daily and weekly!


Well, its not necessary to have to blast lots of light and add lots of ferts just because you inject Co2, it all depends on the plant types and growth speed you want to achieve.... you can also choose to run a low maintenance high-tech planted setup whereby the Co2 is injected at a moderate rate to support healthy plant growth and ensure they are not carbon deficient (for most plant tanks, light and nutrients are already more than sufficient, but its the Co2 that is deficient and plant growth is limited by it). 

In low maintenance high-tech tank setups, you can use less light, have moderate Co2 injection, dose less (or no) fertilizers. Plant growth will progress at a moderate pace and everything will be much easier to keep in balance.

The benefit with having a Co2 system is if you decide to grow more demanding types of plants, you will then have the option to increase light, nutrients and Co2 supply to match their growth requirements. It gives you the opportunity to keep a much wider variety of plants.




> Oh ya and what are MC??


MC = Micranthemum 'Monte Carlo'

Here is an info link from the Tropica website: http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantde...8025TC%29/4442

It looks like a larger leaved version of HC, but less demanding and easier to grow.

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## Ryan Peh

I just saw photos of MC and they look pretty good as well! i think i'll use the money i set aside for CO2 system for the soil and decorations first. If need, then i will consider getting the CO2 in future. 
Urban Aquaria i wish you would come with me on my shopping trips when i buy my soil and other stuffs HAHAHA that would be so much easier for me...

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## AQMS

For beginner,starting with 4ft is a huge task,why not start with 1.5 or 2 ft first.
Tank maintenance is a chore for big tanks, especially planted tank.

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## Ryan Peh

I was about to buy a 3ft tank at first... but my friend's father had a spare 4ft tank with cabinet... i told her isn't it too big for a starter like me, but she told me if i get a 3ft tank, i'm going to regret after awhile and say i should have gotten the 4ft HAHA 
Thus, i agreed to take the 4ft from her LOL

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## AQMS

> I was about to buy a 3ft tank at first... but my friend's father had a spare 4ft tank with cabinet... i told her isn't it too big for a starter like me, but she told me if i get a 3ft tank, i'm going to regret after awhile and say i should have gotten the 4ft HAHA 
> Thus, i agreed to take the 4ft from her LOL


It is true actually, if you get 3ft you want 4ft and if will go on.... we call it addiction... :Grin:

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## AQMS

i found the post recently just pop up again
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...-ADA-soil-10KG

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## Ryan Peh

Thanks! i'll go check it out! Hopefully i can get some cheaper soil from people!

OH RIGHT!!!
Another question thats always been on my mind is how to make the water softer and slightly acidic?? Does adding driftwood help? Also, whats the ph of Singapore's water??

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## fireblade

you can forget about base fertilizer if you use ADA Amazonia ..
remember not to wash the soil... just dump in and add water slowly will do.

As for CO2, you can temporary put it behind your mind.. just go for lower maintainese plants first should be fine.. moss and ferns can do without CO2 for a while.
Also remember not to dose of liquid fertilizer initially. 

Do you have lights already? you will need to factor in another $100 to $200 for lights.

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## Ryan Peh

Oooh no need fertiliser? That'd would save me quite a sump too. 
How much watts do I need for a 4ft tank?

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## fireblade

for Lights, if you use T5 will be cheaper than LED.

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## Ryan Peh

What's a T5? And how much watts do I need?

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## Jimmy

> What's a T5? And how much watts do I need?


T5 light tubes

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## Ryan Peh

T5 are fluorescent lights?

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## Ryan Peh

Can someone recommend me a good canister filter for my 4x2x2ft tank? 
I was recommended to use eheim canister filters but i read from the eheim website that most of their canister filter only goes up to 1700litres/hr. But with a 120gallon(450litre) tank, i'd need like 800gallon/hr (3000litre/hr) of flow rate???

One eheim canister that can pump up to 1500litres/hr already costs $200+
anyone got any recommendations? 
Also, since mine is a sump tank, i was recommended not to use the overflow system since the co2 in my tank would easily escape if i do that.

UPDATE: 
i just did some research and realise i actually need 3000lph of circulation, not necessarily filtering. But how much of a filter flow rate would i need for my 120 gallon tank?

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## Urban Aquaria

The high flow rate rule that is recommended for planted tanks is mainly to generate ample circulation around the tank, in order to bring Co2 and nutrients to all the plants. 

In larger tank volumes, you could go with less flow rate and instead look at other ways to improve circulation if necessary, like installing wave makers or submersible pumps at areas with dead spots.

Another alternative is to use 2 canister filters, in this way their outflows can be positioned to cover different areas of the tank. This also increases the total amount of filtration capacity too. If your budget is limited, you could look at other brands like Atman, Jebao, Up Aqua etc, which are usually cheaper for the equivalent flow rate (though they may not be as energy efficient and hardware support/parts availability may not be as extensive as compared to Eheim equipment).

Btw, you can still use a sump tank filtration system with overflow for a planted tank setup, any percentage of Co2 that offgas due to the extra surface agitation from the overflow and sump tank water movement can be easily compensated by simply injecting more Co2.  :Very Happy:

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## AQMS

Just like i said 4 feet is too big to start with,if your filtration system is not good it will result
in a lot of problem and algae is one of them.

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## WingCher

I would say option A with no aquasoil. Just get some plants that will be tied to driftwood or rocks since the overflow sump system not that suitable for high tech planted tanks. You have to decide whether you are a fish person or plant person. It's hard to clean up the waste for big fishes if you have aquasoil on the bottom. Big fishes are messy-eaters too.

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## Ryan Peh

I went to aquarist chamber and green chapter yesterday and I am in love with planted tanks HAHA.
Anyway I've found about 2 canister filters secondhand and that's what I'm getting I guess! 

My sump tank is at least 2ft drop from the mouth of the overflow system.. The previous owner of the tank told me that the co2 will escape really easily if I use the sump tank..

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## fireblade

what filter are you buying?

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## Ryan Peh

I found a eheim 2224 and a fluval 403! Should I use those? Or should I just use the sump tank and save me more than half the money...?

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## fireblade

2224 is toooooooo weak for your 4 feet... 
I used it for my 2 feet tank find it just nice..

for 4 feet I think you should look for 2 pieces of ehiem 2028 or 2228 or 2217

I will advice you get one 2028 or 2228 or 2217 to try first, if not good, then you get another one.

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## Ryan Peh

Even 2224 with the fluval 403 together is not enough??

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## Ryan Peh

What about Eheim 2228 with fluval 403? 

Or can I just add a wave maker or some sort HAHA

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## fireblade

just found this on the website, not sure you still want to consider getting that..
I am not very sure about the flowrate of the fluval but 2224 is definitely not enough...

http://www.partsandmedia.com/fluval403parts.html

The Fluval 03 Series Has Been Discontinued For More Than A Decade - Not All Parts Are Still Available.

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## Ryan Peh

I think I'm just gonna go with what urban aquaria said... More co2 with the sump tank HAHAHA

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## WingCher

Since you have already saved on the cabinet, why not get a 4ft glass tank instead? Better to do it right the 1st time to save you the trouble in future

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## Ryan Peh

But the tank comes with the cabinet! I'm not sure if it's sort of built together but the cabinet would probably have a hole for the water to flow to the sump tank kept below the tank. Cuz I haven't actually receive the tank yet so I can't confirm!

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## fireblade

your friend's father giving you the sump and tank and cabinet... is he going to give you the pump for the sump also? if not that is another $100- $200 plus I think..  :Smile:

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## Ryan Peh

Nope! But the pump I can get them at around $60!

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## fireblade

think 2228 with wave maker or 403 should be fine...




> What about Eheim 2228 with fluval 403? 
> 
> Or can I just add a wave maker or some sort HAHA

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## fireblade

oh then it is ok... 
remember the pipings..  :Smile: 




> Nope! But the pump I can get them at around $60!

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## Ryan Peh

The pipings should come with the sump no...?

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## fireblade

maybe old and need to change?  :Smile:  just some thoughts that go through my mind...

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## Ryan Peh

HAHA I see, thanks!! 
Anyway I think I'm gonna go with the sump tank with a pump, co2 system, t5 lighting around 2-3 tubes and probably no chiller for now. 

Just gonna get hair grass, Java fern and some Christmas moss or Java moss.

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## fireblade

I think you will at least need 4 tubes of T5.... so you should go for 2 tubes T5 then if not enough get another 2 T5...  :Smile:  to counter itchy hand syndrome.. and upgrade syndrome...

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## Ryan Peh

HAHAHA alright. Is that all I would need?? 
For those plants I mentioned, should be fine with my current set up right?

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## fireblade

should be alright..

are you going to get rocks or wood? 
that will be another consideration before you fill up the tank  :Smile:

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## AQMS

Im with fireblade,2224 is best for 2 feet.

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## Ryan Peh

Yup getting both wood and rocks! Thanks guys I think I'll just go with the sump tank until I earn more money from my part time job to support a better system

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## Ryan Peh

What's a good filter pump for a 4ft tank using overflow filter system??

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## fireblade

want less headache, get a ehiem...  :Smile:

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## Ryan Peh

Which one should I get? Their universal pumps?

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## fireblade

for your sump?
depends on what flowrate you need .. maybe can get slightly more powerful then what you need. if too stron you can divert or control the flow, else if too weak you will need to change pump https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/technology/pumps

should be universal pumps..

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## DeadEnd

Be prepared to standby more money to spend as it is very addictive in the beginning. You will start to visit every aquarium shop to buy buy buy and upgrade upgrade upgrade. You may not want a chiller or CO2 now but you will changed your mind after noticing your plants is growing so painfully slow and some plants will just melt away due to the high temp.

You will also need basic necessity like pincer, scissor and fertiiser other than your standard tank equipment. And not to forget it is always good to get a bottle of AlgExit for planted tank beginner as your tank will be most likely to be swamped by algae due uncontrollable urge to increase the lighting to speed up the growth. 

Also be ready that you will spend more time looking after the tank and manually clean those stubborn algae. A beautiful tank is built by blood and sweat by the owner  :Smile:

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## Ryan Peh

HAHAHA I know what you mean!! I just started this hobby for like a month or less and I've visited fish farms twice, went to Clementi fish shops like 10 times and my house is at Bedok. I went LFS hopping with a friend LOL. Went to 6 fish shops in a day. Spent 2hrs talking to a guy at aquarist chambers and spent half an hour staring at planted tanks at green chapter 

I don't think I'm gonna get chiller and co2 already cuz I'm not going for the heavily planted tank scape. I'm going for mainly driftwood and rocks hard scape with a few moss tied on it and some Java fern. My tank is a sump tank so it's better for fishes than for plants. 

I was thinking maybe starting with a high tech tank won't be such a great idea. So maybe I'd just stick to putting bigger fishes since it's a 4ft sump tank and less focus on plants. 

If one day I ever save enough money, I'm gonna get an ADA cabinet tank and chiller and proper canister filters for a perfect planted tank masterpiece HAHA

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## Urban Aquaria

You could also consider a hardscape-based aquascape tank... its focus more on the hardscape design (ie. wood and rocks) and a community of fishes, along with maybe a few hardy plants (if you like). Such setups can look nice, and are also easier to manage without having to constantly look after the planted aspect.

Here are examples of some beautiful yet simple hardscape-based aquascapes for inspiration from ADG website:









Source: http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/i...1&p=0&a=0&at=0

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## Ryan Peh

Yup that's what I'm planning to do!! 
I really like angelfish, tetras and puffers... But idk if I can put puffers with my angel and tetras SIGH

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## Binks

Your CO2 costs will be higher because of your filtration system. Do keep that in mind.

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## AQMS

Kena already....kena poison... :Grin:

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## AQMS

Since you stay at bedok,visit superstar aquarium at Tampines they have good fishes...or Kohaku aquarium at Bedok their prices are reasonable.

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## Ryan Peh

I've went to both!! They don't seem to have a lot of varieties.. Just the typical lfs fishes you can find. 
I'm probably getting some baby angelfishes from a guy that posted an ad on the marketplace, some neon dwarf rainbowfish from Pasir Ris fish farm cuz that's the only place that I saw selling and tetras can be found anywhere and I want some albino corydoras and also SAEs!

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## WingCher

Bro, when you got the tank, check for any leakage. Old tanks are risky especially big tanks. You do not want to flood your living room.

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## Ryan Peh

HAHA right. I'll keep that in mind! I'm probably getting in this Friday evening! Yayyyyy so excited!!

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## AlienFish

Hi Ryan, great to see such excitement. I use to visit different LFS too regularly too.. Pasir Ris fish is good option to go if u buy large quantity of tetras. Is cheaper!! Try not to mix puffer with tetra, not safe for yr tetra.. Bro, welcome to the club!!


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## Ryan Peh

I really like dwarf puffers cuz of their chubby body and tiny fins HAHA and I saw a few tanks at green chapter that had dwarf puffers with tetras! I guess with a big school of tetras and many hiding spots, it should be fine for them right..? 
And well a few tail nipping here and there makes it seem more like a real part of nature HAHA

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## AlienFish

Well, with yr 4ft guess is ok.. But personally I don't fancy having some tetra having torn fins.. No worries.... 


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## Ryan Peh

Hmmm but I'm gonna put angel too so my angels are prolly gonna have some torn fins too HAHA

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## AlienFish

According to my previous experience & some read out, it happen, & even kill some other fish.. Suggest u add puffer last after settled down yr tank.. May b add one at a time first.... Ha.... Hav fun!!


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## Ryan Peh

HAHA angels are so pretty and puffers are so cute.. Really tempted to get both! But I read somewhere that dwarf puffers may end up being food for angels.. Hopefully the baby Angels I'm buying gets bigger than the dwarf puffer quickly and the dwarf puffer will avoid the Angels!

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## DeadEnd

You seem to like your daily dose of poison and I shall provide some for you  :Smile: 

Do make a visit to those aquarium megamart like Seaview or Qianhu, they have all the aquatic equipment and exotic fauna under one roof at reasonable price. There is also a planted tank aquarist behind Seaview selling highend stuffs like ADA and acrylic LED light set.

They may be located far from you but you will like a kid in a candy store when you reached there which made the journey worthwhile  :Smile: 

There are also many aquarist in Singapore which you can go round hunting. Do refer to the list of aquarist link below.
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...al-Fish-Shops)

Happy travelling  :Smile:

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## Urban Aquaria

> I really like dwarf puffers cuz of their chubby body and tiny fins HAHA and I saw a few tanks at green chapter that had dwarf puffers with tetras! I guess with a big school of tetras and many hiding spots, it should be fine for them right..? 
> And well a few tail nipping here and there makes it seem more like a real part of nature HAHA


From my experience keeping dwarf puffers, i find that they actually have different individual personalities... i've kept them in community tanks before and while some will constantly chase and bite all the other fishes, some are peaceful and just potter along avoiding confrontations. It just depends on luck i guess.

So if you want to mix dwarf puffers in with other fishes, just have to try and see. But be prepared to quickly shift them out to another tank if they go ballistic and start to cause trouble.

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## Ryan Peh

Thanks for all the help guys!! I'm gonna start buying stuffs for my low tech hard scape 4ft masterpiece this Saturday!! 

Can't wait to cycle the tank and get everything ready for the fishes!!!

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## Ryan Peh

Anyone knows where sells cheap river rocks?? I'm looking for really huge pieces and I know c328 sells them at around $4/kg

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## AQMS

Here it is
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ighlight=rocks

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## lohsh

If u are in the east, I have a few large pieces for u to view. Definitely lower than wholesaler  :Smile: 


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## Ryan Peh

Thanks ADMS!! 70cents per kg is super cheap!! 

Lohsh, do you have pictures!

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## Ryan Peh

I have a new problem guys HAHA 
How do I connect the pipes from the main tank to the sump tank?? 
Where do I get aquarium safe silicon??

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## lohsh

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444314852.297310.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444314896.630373.jpg


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## AQMS

Rock scape from our very own skill aquascaper....
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...pes?highlight=

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## Ryan Peh

Just got my tank delivered to me and I have no idea where the pipes are suppose to connect for the sump tank.....

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## Ryan Peh

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444400629.513755.jpg

This is the tank with the sump at the bottom....

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## AlienFish

Bro, so hav u set up yr tank? Pls send us a pic after setting up.. Enjoy yr setting up.. 


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## Ryan Peh

Nooooo I still dunno how to set it up

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## AlienFish

Guess u should ask the person who gave u the tank. Looking from yr pic, seems to hav a lot of things missing.. Pipe, hoses, filter???


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## Ryan Peh

I think they don't really know too.. They haven't used the tank for a really long time.. But oh well, guess I'll just have to buy my own pipes and hoses! Start from scratch  :Smile:

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## AlienFish

Ok.. Enjoy yr wk end setting up.. 


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## Urban Aquaria

> I think they don't really know too.. They haven't used the tank for a really long time.. But oh well, guess I'll just have to buy my own pipes and hoses! Start from scratch


The part about "They haven't used the tank for a really long time..." is abit worrying...  :Grin: 

If the tank has not been used for a while, best to fill it with water first, let it sit for a few days and test for leakage. Older used tanks may develop weakened joints and the silicone could also deteriorate in storage over time and when subsequently moved, so have to check and test thoroughly before actual usage.

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## Ryan Peh

I just finished setting up the pipes last night!! Haven't put water tho.. Probably gonna put water after adding some filter media to trap the dusts. 

The sump doesn't leak! I washed that already!

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## Ryan Peh

I found out from the previous owner of the tank that his tank was only unused for 10months or so, although it was in use for at least 6 years. 

But anyway!!! I ran some water through the tank today and the pipes were working fine!! 
And as you can see, I only used one chamber of the sump tank cuz I didn't buy enough media... 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444583248.770511.jpg

Can someone recommend what other media should I add?? I have the sponges and ceramic rings!! 

Gonna wait till Wednesday night to start aquascaping the tank!!! Anything I should take note when first setting up the aquascape?

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## fireblade

Nice tank and cabinet!

Did you fill the tank up to the brim to test for leakage? better do so in case there is a leakage after you scape nicely .... waste a bit of water better then waste lots of effort!

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## Ryan Peh

My tank is 120gallon and the sump is like 55 gallons... My water bills are gonna skyrocket this coming month

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## fireblade

only fill up the main tank? you do not have a valve to shut off the main tank water to flow to sump?
better do it just in case...
after that use the water to wash toilet or wash the corridor lor...

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## Ryan Peh

Nope! No valve... But when I was cleaning the main tank I didn't notice any leaks.. So it should be fine right? HAHA

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## fireblade

that is up to you then  :Smile:  
think of this..
after adding 4 packets of soil, put in the rocks and pebbles, do all the planting (if any) happily fill up with water.... 
then start to see water dripping out... what will you do and intend to do?

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## Ryan Peh

HAHA apply silicon I guess? Don't scare me lehhhhhh

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## xKimi

If leak it's still ok, imagine if it's a gush... I'm pretty sure you will not want to have ponding in your living room. Best is to check the tank properly in the beginning before starting any serious scaping or adding livestock. It will be a big hassle if something happens later on. 

Btw, is there a tank mat or something underneath your tank?


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## fireblade

> HAHA apply silicon I guess? Don't scare me lehhhhhh


not scare you lar... just paint the worst scene for you ...




> If leak it's still ok, imagine if it's a gush... I'm pretty sure you will not want to have ponding in your living room. Best is to check the tank properly in the beginning before starting any serious scaping or adding livestock. It will be a big hassle if something happens later on. 
> 
> Btw, is there a tank mat or something underneath your tank?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


hahaha... looks like the more we talk the more money he got to spend.. :P

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## Ryan Peh

There's styrofoam between the tank and the cabinet! 

And definitely no gushing anywhere HAHA I checked!!

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## xKimi

> not scare you lar... just paint the worst scene for you ...
> 
> 
> 
> hahaha... looks like the more we talk the more money he got to spend.. :P


I think, he still has many many things that he hasn't bought yet but is not aware that he doesn't have... Hehe


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## fireblade

little water compared to a tank full of water... you decide on your own bah...

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## Ryan Peh

Errrrrr I thought through already leh.. I only left with plants to buy and some big driftwood!!

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## Urban Aquaria

Yeah... best to fill up the tank full of water to the brim and do a test run of all the filtration system for a few days first (the weight of a full tank of water is very different from when washing it). Any cracks, leaks or plumbing issues will usually pop up within a day or two. 

Once everything looks stable and secure, then can start scaping it.

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## Ryan Peh

But the tank has only been out of use for a period of 10month or so...? 

Alright then I guess I'll fill it up tonight or tomorrow!

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## xKimi

But you must put into consideration that the tank was moved. Also, I'm assuming from your previous posts that you have partially fixed new piping? These 2 major points can make or break your tank, literally. 
And, please start cycling your tank only after you fill up more media in your sump. Your current amount of media is insufficient and if you add the rest of the media later on, you might run into issues like cloudy water because it will be like a new cycle again. Besides, I don't think you want to miss the initial release of ammonia from the soil for cycling all your media. Unless of course you are using inert substrate or not using soil at all.

Just my two cents, because I really hope you will succeed. 


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## Ryan Peh

I'm not using soil! I'm using gravel  :Smile:  and yeap I get where you're coming from!! 

Any idea what other filter I should add?? I was thinking of using the bio balls but they don't look very efficient HAHA

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## Urban Aquaria

> But the tank has only been out of use for a period of 10month or so...? 
> 
> Alright then I guess I'll fill it up tonight or tomorrow!


Yeah, its not about how long that its been used or not used... its just a recommended checking procedure for all tanks before actual usage.

I do full water tests for all my brand new tanks too, just to double-check the build quality and make sure there are no leaks.  :Smile:

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## fireblade

heard that marine pure is good.. but expensive too...

MarinePureFamily.jpg

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## Ryan Peh

What other types of filter should I get?
Bio balls, lava rocks and what else are there? O.o

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## xKimi

> What other types of filter should I get?
> Bio balls, lava rocks and what else are there? O.o


There are many types of media available on the market. Like biohome plus, marine pure, Mr Aqua creamic rings or even Seachem Matrix. 

It all depends on your budget and how much are u willing to spend on it.

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## AQMS

> Errrrrr I thought through already leh.. I only left with plants to buy and some big driftwood!!


Big driftwood areee expensive,just to let you know...what your budget on that?




> I'm not using soil! I'm using gravel  and yeap I get where you're coming from!! 
> any idea what other filter I should add?? I was thinking of using the bio balls but they don't look very efficient HAHA


Just fill up the tank and let it run 1st. If anything comes up it is easier to deal with.




> What other types of filter should I get?
> Bio balls, lava rocks and what else are there? O.o


dont forget seachem purigen too..

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## Ryan Peh

Yup I know! I've seen the prices! I'm estimating around a piece for $40-50? 

And the filter media, I bought 2 bags of brandless ceramic rings from my lfs! They sell a lot of other brandless medias too but idk why I should get..

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## AQMS

Alamak your profile cannot send Pm..
I can help you on the Drift wood. Pm me.

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## Ryan Peh

I using the app Leh idk how to pm HAHA

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## Ryan Peh

Hey do I still need an air pump if I'm running the tank using an overflow sump tank filtration system?

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## WingCher

> Hey do I still need an air pump if I'm running the tank using an overflow sump tank filtration system?


That will depend on whether your fishes are gasping for air or not.

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## Ryan Peh

I will take that as a no HAHA

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## Urban Aquaria

Usually there should be sufficient surface agitation and gas exchange from all the water flowing and dripping in the sump filtration system, so the tank should be quite well oxygenated... but it can still be beneficial to run an air stone to further improve oxygenation, especially if you are running a low-tech tank with higher bio-loads.

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## markus92

Yup I know! I've seen the prices! I'm estimating around a piece for $40-50? 
-- some may cost more :/ if from LFS its way more expansive but u can try to source from 2nd hand- even it it is USED please treat it with hot water before adding into tank to prevent hitch hikers, try to soak the DW, (almost impossible for big DWs) as they leech ur water and can cause ph fluctuations.

And the filter media, I bought 2 bags of brandless ceramic rings from my lfs! They sell a lot of other brandless medias too but idk why I should get..
-- anyone got any reviews on brandless CR? so far havent heard any be it good or bad

Hey do I still need an air pump if I'm running the tank using an overflow sump tank filtration system?
--when i was running my 5 ft planted i used CO2 tank which matched my lighting period only and had a normal 7 dollar seaview air pump running 24/7 into my sump tank to keep my oxygen levels constant. i din't put it up on top as i self it broke the "zen" of the calm topwater.

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## AQMS

So Ryan,how is the tank?

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## Ryan Peh

ITS DONEEEEE!!!!!! 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444842462.666122.jpg

I'm cycling with 6 albino corydoras and around 10 ghost shrimps! 
Gonna test my ammonia in a few days!

IM SO EXCITEDDDDDDD

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## markus92

Whats that white sand?? Its so glaring under your lighting lol. 

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## Ryan Peh

HAHA it's just white gravel! 

Oh ya and my shrimps are swimming into my sump tank through the overflow slits... 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444842681.172568.jpg

Can I just leave it there..?

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## markus92

Please dont. Sooner or later they will get sucked up and minced into the pump. Identify ur shrimps path. For my i have a overflow chamber which draws water from the bottom (silicon this part up) and the top (metal mesh) but this grealty reduces water movement if things are trapped in the mesh

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## Ryan Peh

Ohhhh I see! I found the path already! It's the right bottom corner. If you see the photo of my tank, you'll notice a stone there and 2 pieces of cardboard! Which blocks the other shrimps from entering. I don't have enough gravel to cover it so I'm getting more tomorrow morning.

As for the shrimp already in my sump... I can't catch it cuz there's too much filter media for it to hide in.. Especially those long ceramic tubes....

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## markus92

Can't really see from the photo. But as long as u know the issue n work on it things will fall into place.

Looks like he found a new home hahas poor chap instead of the large nice environment u built him he has downgraded himself into a ceramic tube

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## fireblade

looks like your rocks look perfect for 2 ft tank!
abit small on 4 ft...

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## Ryan Peh

I know right!! When I bought the rocks they look so big and heavy... Until I put them into the tank and they just shrunk

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## fireblade

hahaha...
thats the problem with big tanks!

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## Ryan Peh

I'm gonna add more gravel today cuz apparently 25kg of gravel wasn't even enough to cover the surface of the tank... Gonna get more gravel to make the black part go higher

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## Ryan Peh

Omg guys why did all my ghost shrimp die!?!?!? 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444874865.785972.jpg

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## xKimi

It's... Your... Water...


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## Ryan Peh

Huhhhh but aren't ghost shrimps supposed to be pretty hardy...?

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## xKimi

I think in general, shrimps are still rather delicate and sensitive to environmental conditions. Did you test your water parameters?


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## Ryan Peh

I was planning to test it after 2/3 days to let the water sort of settle down first...

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## markus92

Xkimi is right. Dont worry just let the water settle for another day or 2 then test the water and see which parameter needs adjusting. Ghost shrimp where just the first indicator that something is wrong with your water parameters.

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## Ryan Peh

Oh nooooooooo what could be the problem... I added anti chlorine and bacteria starter.. 

Btw here's a survivor shrimp!!! 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444877432.327444.jpg

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## markus92

If you need test kits theres a guy selling them http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...d.php?t=122867

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## WingCher

> Oh nooooooooo what could be the problem... I added anti chlorine and bacteria starter.. 
> 
> Btw here's a survivor shrimp!!! 
> ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444877432.327444.jpg


I suggest you leave the dead to rot in the tank for cycling. Hope you can let your tank to cycle for 3-4 weeks before adding anymore fishes or shrimps.

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## Ryan Peh

I scooped everything out except the survivor shrimp... Probably let that live for as long as it can!

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## WingCher

Well, i doubt the survivors will live. Sorry to drown your hopes but your tank isnt cycled yet. Every parameters are so unstable at the moment.

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## Ryan Peh

Yup I know HAHA so I'm just gonna leave its body to rot?

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## xKimi

Since you are not using any soil and only gravel, you can actually just throw in one or two pieces of market prawns and let it rot, instead of putting in fish. Idea is the same. The rotting will release ammonia and feed the multiplying bacteria. 


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## Ryan Peh

But that seems disgusting.. How long will it take the market prawn to decompose completely?

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## xKimi

Haha but if you think about it, it's more humane.

You do not have to leave the prawn in there for too long. It take quite some time for the prawn to decompose actually (a few weeks...). But I guess for now, you will not have to do the fish less cycling. You still have some corys in there right? They should be sufficient. 


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## Ryan Peh

Yup! My 6 corys seem fine! 
Are they enough to cycle a 175 gallon tank?? (Including the sump)

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## xKimi

Test water parameters first and see if there is any ammonia spike. 


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## markus92

His corys bioload is too low. He would require alot of corys for amount of bioload to cycle a 4 ft tank. 

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## Ryan Peh

Hmmm then what other middle or top level fishes can I add apart from danios and Molly? 

I don't really intend to keep danios and Molly so I don't want to have to remove them after I cycled my tank!

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## Urban Aquaria

For a 175 gallon tank, that amount of water volume will indeed take alot of ammonia to even register as tracable amounts due to the large water volume. Imagine the difference between a standard 2ft tank with only 15 gallons vs your 175 gallon tank.

So with just a small group of small fishes and shrimps, that bio-load is low enough that you are probably not going to see much movements in the ammonia levels at this stage (especially since you are also only using inert gravel too).

The large water volume should easily dilute the comparatively smaller ratio of ammonia currently produced. As the saying goes, larger water volumes encounter much less fluctuations and can maintain much more stable parameters.

Since you are already practicing the traditional "fish-in" cycling method, then you could simply start adding in fishes you actually want to keep, but in small controlled numbers at a time (every week just 5-10 small fishes). That will give the beneficial bacteria in the tank sufficient time to slowly grow their population and handle the increasing bio-load.

The key is not to suddenly add alot of fishes at one go, like bulk buying 300 tetras and dumping them in the tank (which many large tank keepers are always tempted to do), that will almost always overload the tank cycle and result in a crash.  :Opps:

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## Ryan Peh

Hmmm so you're saying.. Technically I can just add whatever fishes I wanna keep as long as I add them a little at a time?

Even fragile fishes like baby angelfish or Cardinal tetras?

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## Ingen

Check the PH of your water. Since you are using inert substrate and rocks, chances are your PH should be 7 and above which may not be suitable for angelfish. If it's high Ph and hardwater and with your tank size, you can probably consider some african cichlids.

And if your PH is indeed on the high side, it also mean that the ammonia in the water is more potent as compared to lower PH of say 5-6. Got to monitor the ammonia level closely.

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## Ryan Peh

Hmmmm but I added quite a lot of driftwood hoping to lower the ph as well...

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## Ingen

> Hmmmm but I added quite a lot of driftwood hoping to lower the ph as well...


I'm just making assumption, best do a PH test before choosing the fishes for your tank, it may not be a major concern for some species but its still the best to provide as close to their natural parameter as possible.

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## Ryan Peh

Alright! Thank you very much!!  :Smile:

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## Urban Aquaria

> Hmmm so you're saying.. Technically I can just add whatever fishes I wanna keep as long as I add them a little at a time?
> 
> Even fragile fishes like baby angelfish or Cardinal tetras?


Ideally you should add in the fishes in stages based on their hardiness... the hardier fish species first and the sensitive fishes last. As the beneficial bacteria population establish and build up larger and stronger, their growth speed becomes faster too, so after a few weeks you can test the water parameters to make sure its stable before adding the more sensitive fishes.

Beneficial bacteria only grow to match the current bio-load anyways (they will not grow more than what the tank's bio-load can sustain their population), so even if a tank is "cycled" with hardy fishes, anytime you add more fishes in the bacteria still need time to grow further to handle the increase in bio-load (unless you remove the fishes used for cycling to replace the fishes you want, then have to re-house those older fishes).

Btw, other than having a stable cycle and strong bemeficial bacteria population, you still need to make sure the tank environment is suitable for those new fishes... if they are softwater lower pH fishes, your tank should also maintain those conditions.

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## Ryan Peh

My fish choices mainly requires soft acidic water. But cuz of my scape using a lot of rocks, I'm afraid that my Kh will increase which is also why I put 3 huge pieces of driftwood hoping it'd be enough to lower the ph and Kh faster than the rocks release minerals into the water!

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## Urban Aquaria

> My fish choices mainly requires soft acidic water. But cuz of my scape using a lot of rocks, I'm afraid that my Kh will increase which is also why I put 3 huge pieces of driftwood hoping it'd be enough to lower the ph and Kh faster than the rocks release minerals into the water!


I guess you'll have to either try to adjust your water parameters to suit the intended fish species (which will require more work and additional monitoring), or choose fishes which suit your current water conditions (which is much less work and easier to manage).

Usually for most people who plan to keep the more sensitive softwater fishes, they would setup the tank with active soil substrate, no rocks and only wood or leaf litter. In the case of your tank with its combination of inert gravel substrate, calciferous rocks and higher pH water from the tap, it will take more effort to maintain a stable lower pH softwater environment. Driftwood can help to lower pH, but its effects will depend on the quantity of wood and the concentration of tannins they produce (vs the buffing capacity of the other items in your tank), so you may need to add alot more driftwood to achieve a noticeable pH lowering effect. 

Only thing with relying on driftwood to lower pH is you have to be okay to have your tank water stained a yellowish/tea color... which i guess is okay if you are aiming for a blackwater biotope style tank anyways.  :Smile: 

That being said, while adjusting your tank environment to suit softwater fishes would be the most ideal path to take... most softwater fishes can still adapt to neutral to slightly higher pH conditions with moderate hardness, especially those which are tank bred. The important thing is to make sure to acclimate those fishes properly before introduction into the tank and make sure the water parameters are super stable. 

Personally i keep cardinal tetras in a sand based tank containing rocks and wood, pH of 7.2-7.4 GH 4 KH 2 TDS 150-180 without issues, all of the tetras i bought 2+ years ago are still healthy and active with bright colors.

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## Ryan Peh

That's good to hear!! Thank you so much for your constant inputs!! You're really very knowledgable and I'm always learning stuff from your posts! 

Anyways if my ph is too high, I'm considering getting peat moss and using blue led light to reduce the yellowish stain in my tank HAHA.

Also, I just bought 6 neon dwarf rainbow fishes to add to the bio-load for cycling!

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## Ryan Peh

Just sharing my new addition of fishes! 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444929190.479159.jpg

Here's a photo of the neon dwarf rainbow swimming at the top of the tank 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444929228.010373.jpg

And just to show another! 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1444929249.120970.jpg

Also, my corydoras are swimming pretty actively all over my tank! I guess everything's good after all!

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## happydanio123

Option A will require more water changes while Option B may require more hassle since you need to get good quality soil and plants for an optimal planted aquarium. The choice is up to you but I'd prefer Option B.

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## Ryan Peh

HAHAHA you're a bit too late... As you can see I've already aquascaped my tank and added fishes

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## markus92

Any updates Ryan? May i know where you bought the white gravel? Thanks 

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## Ryan Peh

Errrr currently I isolated 1 neon dwarf rainbow cuz it was tilted and kept swimming at the surface of the tank. After I changed 25% of the water (0.5ppm ammonia at that time) the fish was swimming around the middle or lower but it was still swimming tilted. 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1445060901.188441.jpg

Then another neon dwarf rainbowfish died in front of me... Like it was struggling to stay balanced and it just slowly sank to the bottom of the tank.. 

The other 4 schooled together and swims around really beautifully!

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## markus92

Seems like it is relatively stable now. Enjoy it  

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## Ryan Peh

Waiting for the cycle to finish then I'm gonna go ahead and start a nano shrimp tank 

Thanks for all the help guys!! I'll update this again when my tank is cycled and ready to max out with fishes HAHAHA

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## markus92

Hahas okay bro nano shrimp tank is hard in the sense that due to a small volume of water your water parameters can fluctuate very fast. If you want you should quickly get a tank add the substrate and run a filter now. By the time you are ready it will be cycled  :Smile: 

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## Ryan Peh

Yup that's my current plan! But I just realise Singapore water quite alkaline... Idk if my shrimps will survive. And I was at aquarist chamber just now and a lady told me most hobbyist who keep shrimps have chillers for the shrimps. They don't use chillers at their shop because they have air condition turned on 24/7! 
So I'm only worried Singapore temperature and the water ph won't allow me to keep shrimps..

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## markus92

Depends on that kind of shrimps u want to keep. For me i use to keep a shrimp tank 2 ft of fire red. 2 years down the road now i still have that tank. I have only fed and changed water every 5 months(very low bioload) for temp wise i only have a fan running 24 7 to keep it cooler. The shrimp population is somewhat constant as they are able to replenish their numbers. Water wise i just add anti chlorine and make sure i dont change more than 20 percent water 

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## Ryan Peh

I'm thinking of fire red, CRS and the blue coloured shrimps!

What do the shrimps eat for the 5 months before you feed them??
And the water you use is just dechlorinated tap water??

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## markus92

For crs you definitely need a chiller if you want to breed them. Without a chiller there is a slow success chance . For blue bolts i dont have any experience but i think it also does. Baby Shrimp eat algae/bio film. Yes of course de chlorine water They are very fragile creatures it is a must! 

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## Ryan Peh

Ohhh what's your temperature with just the fan? 
And the water you didn't use distilled water or anything? Did you put any shrimp mineral substrates or other stuff?

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## fireblade

the left fish looks sick...




> Errrr currently I isolated 1 neon dwarf rainbow cuz it was tilted and kept swimming at the surface of the tank. After I changed 25% of the water (0.5ppm ammonia at that time) the fish was swimming around the middle or lower but it was still swimming tilted. 
> ImageUploadedByTapatalk1445060901.188441.jpg
> 
> Then another neon dwarf rainbowfish died in front of me... Like it was struggling to stay balanced and it just slowly sank to the bottom of the tank.. 
> 
> The other 4 schooled together and swims around really beautifully!

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## Ryan Peh

It's dead already

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## markus92

> Ohhh what's your temperature with just the fan? 
> And the water you didn't use distilled water or anything? Did you put any shrimp mineral substrates or other stuff?


Fan can only help cool down your tank temp by 1~2 deg of your room temp. So it depends heavily on your room temp. Do note by using fan your evaporation rate will be very significant for a nano tank! i did not use distilled water nor any sheimp minerals for my fire reds. I used ADA soil and have moss inside. But i did have to cycle the tank for a whole 4 months before it was stable. Therefore if you want a quick start you will need to buy those kickstarter packs

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## Ryan Peh

Hmmmm now I'm contemplating whether I should even start shrimp keeping...

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## fireblade

start slowly....
else burn pocket and destroy hobby...
you can eventually add some shrimps in your 4 feet.. so I think .. do well in one tank first..

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## Ryan Peh

HAHAHA alright.. I think I'm just too excited over this new hobby!!

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## markus92

Yeah why dont you just buy the bulk bag of cherry shrimp and add into your tank?

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## Ryan Peh

Cuz I'm afraid the fishes in my bigger tank will kill the cherry shrimps... Anyway where to buy bulk bags of cherry shrimps?? And how much do they cost?

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## markus92

You can try y618 they have a bag of 50 for $15 if im not wrong. Can any of the bros here correct me? Too long since i last bought  . If you do keep cherrys with those fish just ensure you keep the fish well fed and have hiding places for the shrimp. 

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## Ryan Peh

Omg that's damn cheap!! Are the shrimps even healthy..? 
Hmm I guess I'll start with putting more low maintenance plants and putting the fishes I want to keep first!

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## Urban Aquaria

You can refer to this thread discussing about buying low-grade cherry shrimps or malayan shrimps in bulk bags:

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...lk-bags-at-LFS

Just note that if you are planning to keep and breed higher grade cherry shrimps (ie. fire reds), then its better to just invest in fire reds from the start. Try not to mix low-grade with higher grade ones.

Btw, neocaridinia shrimps (ie. cherry shrimps and their various colors) can live and breed in non-chiller tanks at normal room temperature without issues.

Some caridinia shrimps (ie. crystal red shrimps and their variants) require cooler water temperatures to live and breed properly, especially the higher grade ones... they may still tolerate warmer water conditions but their survival rate may be lower and colors might not be as nice and may not breed as much.

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## Ryan Peh

Always excited when UA replies. Damn you're on every thread in this website HAHAHA 

Alright maybe I'll put cheaper neocaridinia shrimps in my 4ft tank so if they get eaten it won't hurt so bad

Then maybe buy higher grade neocaridinia in my room nano tank hehe.

But apart from water temperature, shrimps have to be in lower ph and softer water right! If I only put driftwood, dechlorinated tap water, ADA soil, and moss balls, is it acceptable?

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## Urban Aquaria

> But apart from water temperature, shrimps have to be in lower ph and softer water right! If I only put driftwood, dechlorinated tap water, ADA soil, and moss balls, is it acceptable?


It all depends on the type of shrimps... neocaridina/RCS shrimps are generally adaptable to a wide range of pH and water hardness, many people also keep them in alkaline pH (>7.0) and harder water conditions and they still thrive and breed. CRS require a much more narrow specific range of parameters to thrive and breed, so need to maintain lower acidic pH and softwater conditions for them.

Your current tank environment looks okay for cherry shrimps, though you do have to expect some losses when introducing them into your tank since its still a new setup that is still cycling with fluctuations in parameters (the main enemy of shrimps is changes in parameters, due to the fact that they have to molt to adapt to changes and need extra time to go through that process). 

Shrimps are alot more sensitive than fishes so they do tend to die more easily in general. Higher attrition rate is one reason why people buy bulk bags of shrimps to use as algae eating crew, ie. if you buy 50 and half of them gradually die off, at least still got 25 that may survive and adapt in time.

As for your fishes eating the shrimps, just have to try and see... most small fishes will usually not bother adult shrimps but may snack on any juvenile and newborn shrimplets they manage to find (consider them as free nutritious live food for your fishes), so its still possible to have a thriving community tank with shrimps if they can breed enough to sustain the population, along with enough hiding places amongst the plants for the shrimplets to hide in until they can grow larger.

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## Ryan Peh

I won't put them in yet! Maybe in a month or so when my ammonia reaches a consistent 0 and when all the rest of my fishes are inside then I'll put the cherry shrimps! 
As for my nano tank, I think I'll keep higher grade cherry and maybe some blue bolts or something!

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## Ryan Peh

Anyway here's an update of my new driftwood and 30kg more gravel LOL

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1445262425.043745.jpg

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## markus92

Can u let me know where you got the white gravel and how much does it retail for  :Smile:  thanks

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## Ryan Peh

I got it from the rock distributor and it was only $0.60 per kg I think! 
The rock distributor is near qianhu!

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## markus92

Hahas can say the postal code or smthing? Else very hard to find hahas thanks! Or maybe google map drop pin!

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## Urban Aquaria

> Hahas can say the postal code or smthing? Else very hard to find hahas thanks! Or maybe google map drop pin!


You can refer to this thread for info on the rock distributor: http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...40-Jalan-Lekar

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## markus92

Thank you UA! 

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## Ryan Peh

Hi guys!! I'm facing another issue... There's some yellow stuff on my rock and when I rub it using my finger, it comes off like powder... Is it algae??? 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1445615432.870825.jpg

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## WingCher

It could be due to the calcium carbonate in the rock has reacted with your acidic water. Did you do a vinegar test on all your rocks?

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## Ryan Peh

I did the vinegar test with all my rocks. And before putting them in my aquarium, I soaked them for a week to make sure nothing was coming out of the rocks.
During the week, the rocks didn't release anything and there was no change in the colour of the rocks.

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## Urban Aquaria

Agree with WingCher, looks like the minerals in the rocks are reacting with the acids in the water and forming those powder residue. I guess you just have to manually clean off the powder. Once algae start growing on the rocks they will cover it anyways.  :Grin: 

The vinegar test mainly reacts in direct contact with limestone, calcite or chalk... so even if you don't see it fizzle on a rock, its still possible the rock has mineral content (just maybe not as high as limestone, calcite or chalk), so its GH and PH increasing effects is slower.

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## Ryan Peh

So should I wash it off or do I leave it like that?

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## Urban Aquaria

If you don't mind the powdery look can just leave it alone... otherwise just brush it off or take out the rock and wash.

Since you are not using active soil substrate, there'll be nothing to counter the gradual increase in pH and GH, so do expect those parameters to stay on the higher side. Just factor that in when choosing livestock.

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## Ryan Peh

I tried stuffing my tank with driftwood to try to lower the effects of the rock since driftwood lowers ph and softens the water. But idk if it's enough or which one (driftwood or rock) actually makes a greater impact

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## Ryan Peh

Oh and is it possible to put in soil on top of my gravel? Or should that have been the other way round?

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## Urban Aquaria

> I tried stuffing my tank with driftwood to try to lower the effects of the rock since driftwood lowers ph and softens the water. But idk if it's enough or which one (driftwood or rock) actually makes a greater impact


Well, it depends on how much KH there is in the water as that parameter prevents pH from dropping and keeps it stable... so if KH is high, it could counter the pH reducing abilities of wood, even if alot of it is used and the water is yellow with tannins. So its mainly a matter of the ratio between amount of pH lowering wood vs the pH raising KH and hardness of the water.

Its one of the reasons why active soil substrates like ADA Amazonia aquasoil pull KH to zero, thats how it can easily buffer and maintain lower pH conditions for long periods of time.





> Oh and is it possible to put in soil on top of my gravel? Or should that have been the other way round?


Yes, you can put active aquasoil on top of the gravel, can also be under it... though if you want to grow plants in the soil, its better to have the soil on top so that the plant roots can reach all the soil nutrients.

Since your tank is still newly setup, and you prefer to maintain lower pH conditions, you might as well just re-do the entire substrate. Its better to do it correctly now, rather then only do half measure and later it will be even more hassle to change the setup once you add even more livestock.

Here are the steps:

1) Transfer the fishes to a temporary tank (there are only a few livestock at the moment so a medium size 20-30 liter plastic or glass tank with sponge filter can suffice as short term accommodation for them)

2) Drain the tank, remove all the gravel, replace with ADA Amazonia aquasoil (for your 4x2x2 tank, just go for a moderate 5cm soil height will do, which is around 36 liters of soil), create a slope so that the front is lower and back is higher (better depth perspective).

3) Refill your tank, then let the filter run for the next few weeks and the tank will cycle on its own. Add lots of fast growing and floating plants to soak up the ammonia and rich nutrients. This is a great period of time to practice your aquascaping skills.  :Well done: 

4) Once the tank is cycled, then slowly re-introduce the fishes back into the tank.

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## Ryan Peh

Omg that's insaneeeeee... Taking out all the gravel is just insane and I already spent $50-60 on the gravel and I don't intend to spend more on that. I think it'd be better if I just got rid of the huge rock and replace it with something else?

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## Urban Aquaria

> Omg that's insaneeeeee... Taking out all the gravel is just insane and I already spent $50-60 on the gravel and I don't intend to spend more on that. I think it'd be better if I just got rid of the huge rock and replace it with something else?


Yeah, it does require extra work to re-scape the tank, but if you want a stable tank environment with specific parameters, then sometimes just have to bite the bullet and do it. 

You could also go the easier method and just remove the rocks too, maybe replace with more drift wood to lower the pH, this method will rely on tannins released by the wood though, so you have to be okay with the yellowish water. 

An amazonian biotope style setup which focus on lots of twisty driftwood can look very nice too.

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## Ryan Peh

I feel so screwed now LOL... Okay I've read that fishes can survive even 1 point above their preferred ph level... So at most I'll remove the rock and replace it with inert decorations or more driftwood and plants!

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## Urban Aquaria

> I feel so screwed now LOL... Okay I've read that fishes can survive even 1 point above their preferred ph level... So at most I'll remove the rock and replace it with inert decorations or more driftwood and plants!


Yeah, its not really necessary to adjust your water pH unless it way out at extremes or you are keeping some really sensitive fishes/shrimps which require low pH in order to stay live. 

Most softwater fishes can indeed adapt and live in slightly higher pH conditions if acclimated properly to those environments. Especially those fishes that were tank or farm bred (which applies to most fishes found at LFS), they are much more used to a wider range of aquarium water conditions.

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## Ryan Peh

Yup! That's what I read on many articles too! I'll get a ph test kit and check my ph first before I make further adjustments or add anymore fishes!

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## AQMS

Dont kancong...check you ph 1st and what do you plan to have in your tank? these are all minor problems that can easily be dealt with.
I see that the gravel in your tank is not thick so that a huge problem if you want to reset. Update us on your ph.

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## Ryan Peh

I'm planning to have:
30-50 tetras
6-8 angelfishes
6-8 dwarf neon rainbowfish
1 rainbow shark
3 SAEs
6-8 Hatchet fish
And maybe some cherry shrimps and ghost shrimps at the bottom

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## AQMS

> Dont kancong...check you ph 1st and what do you plan to have in your tank? these are all minor problems that can easily be dealt with.
> I see that the gravel in your tank is not thick so that a huge problem if you want to reset. Update us on your ph.


i mean not a huge problem..

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## Ryan Peh

Actually it's quite thick... There's 45kg worth of gravel LOL

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## Ryan Peh

OMG I added 8 baby angel fishes and 3 SAEs yesterday...
Today all 3 SAE died (1 stuck at the air strip)... 
The Angels are all doing fine and my neon dwarf rainbow is wandering around alone but doing fine too..
Anyone knows how the 2 SAEs died??

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## Ryan Peh

My ammonia is around 0.25ppm btw and I haven't gotten other test kits! 
I added aquarium salt today just to see if that helps anything.

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## Urban Aquaria

If the other fishes are still okay, then just continue doing water changes to help minimize the ammonia levels in the tank. Give the tank time to cycle and stabilize its parameters.

Try not to add anymore fishes into the tank until ammonia is at zero, if you keep adding more and more livestock while ammonia is still being measured, it will just keep overloading the cycle.

Those SAE that died might not have been able to adapt properly to the shock of transport or introduction into new tank environment, so they couldn't make it.

Btw, how do you acclimate the fishes to your tank? Using drip acclimation?

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## Ryan Peh

I acclimated them by adding tank water to the water that they came in every 15mins. But the problem is the LFS gave me such a small bag to hold the fish that when I pour it into a small pail, it barely filled 1cm depth so I had to add around 100% of the water from my tank to allow the fishes to even have enough water in the pail... I was thinking if that killed them :/ 
Anyway I took around an hour+ to acclimate them cuz I went for dinner in between but I did the same for the angelfishes and they're surviving fine.

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## Urban Aquaria

> I acclimated them by adding tank water to the water that they came in every 15mins. But the problem is the LFS gave me such a small bag to hold the fish that when I pour it into a small pail, it barely filled 1cm depth so I had to add around 100% of the water from my tank to allow the fishes to even have enough water in the pail... I was thinking if that killed them :/ 
> Anyway I took around an hour+ to acclimate them cuz I went for dinner in between but I did the same for the angelfishes and they're surviving fine.


Maybe look at getting a length of silicon air line tubing and a plastic flow control valve (both can get for $1-$2 from all LFS), then can do a slow drip acclimation process on any new livestock you get. 

Its a much easier process as you can set the drip rate and just check on it from time to time. The addition of water into the container will be slow and steady, so it helps to greatly reduce the stress of transition. Some fishes are more sensitive than others in terms of adapting to new tank conditions.

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## Ryan Peh

How does it actually work? Won't I need a pump to let the water flow through?

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## Urban Aquaria

> How does it actually work? Won't I need a pump to let the water flow through?


No pump required... it works by siphon and gravity. 

Just position the acclimation container with fishes at any place below the tank, put the free end of the air line hose into the main tank, start a sipon on the other end (which has the flow control valve), then tune the flow to around 2-3 drips per second and let it slowly drip into the acclimation container for 1-2 hours (actual duration you can adjust depending on the sensitivity of the livestock).

Looks something like this:



Photo from Google Images.

Once acclimation is done, carefully net the fishes into the main tank, then toss away the container water.

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## Ryan Peh

Hey guys I needed a ph test kit that had a wide range and I only found one for pond... It's called Pondcare wide range ph test kit. 
It works for aquarium as well right..?

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## Ryan Peh

Anyway!!! My water is at ph 6.0-6.5 (nearer to 6.5) which is good for shrimps and tetras!! Yayyyyyyyy I'm so happy HAHA which means I don't need to remove my rock either!

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## Urban Aquaria

> Anyway!!! My water is at ph 6.0-6.5 (nearer to 6.5) which is good for shrimps and tetras!! Yayyyyyyyy I'm so happy HAHA which means I don't need to remove my rock either!


Do note that it could be a temporary pH drop due to the high bacterial activity from the cycling process. So it will be best to continue monitoring the pH regularly over time as it could swing back to alkaline as the bacterial activity reduces or after the cycle is completed. What you are looking for is the consistent and stable pH level.

Just curious, what is the pH of your tap water? Maybe can also test it to find out for quick comparison and confirmation.

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## Ryan Peh

Oooooh how often should I test my ph? 
Once a week? Or more often?
Tap water must leave them for 24hrs before I can test right?

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## Urban Aquaria

> Oooooh how often should I test my ph? 
> Once a week? Or more often?
> Tap water must leave them for 24hrs before I can test right?


Its up to you, but once a week is a good practice until your tank is cycled and you can see that the pH is consistent and stable.

Yeah, its usually a good idea to test pH of tap water after it sits for a few hours, so that any residual Co2 or chemicals in the water can diffuse out during that period of time.

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## Ryan Peh

The water don't have to be in a filtered tank right? I can just take a random cup of water and put it for 24hrs?

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## Urban Aquaria

> The water don't have to be in a filtered tank right? I can just take a random cup of water and put it for 24hrs?


Yeah, the tap water should just sit in a cup of water, not filtered... better if can be a bucket of water so that it mimics the same conditions when you do water changes.

The reason why you would want to test your tap water is so that you can find out how it could affect the tank conditions when you do water changes (ie. increase or decrease the pH). In addition, it is also a good idea to test the tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates too.

Some buildings tap water can actually contain surprisingly high levels of ammonia and/or nitrates (especially in older buildings or older estates), so its worth testing it to find out. I've seen cases where people keep doing water changes to reduce ammonia or nitrates in their tanks, but those levels never seem to go down, then later they discover its actually the high ammonia and nitrates content in their tap water that was causing all those issues.

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## Ingen

> Yeah, the tap water should just sit in a cup of water, not filtered... better if can be a bucket of water so that it mimics the same conditions when you do water changes.
> 
> The reason why you would want to test your tap water is so that you can find out how it could affect the tank conditions when you do water changes (ie. increase or decrease the pH). In addition, it is also a good idea to test the tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates too.
> 
> Some buildings tap water can actually contain surprisingly high levels of ammonia and/or nitrates (especially in older buildings or older estates), so its worth testing it to find out. I've seen cases where people keep doing water changes to reduce ammonia or nitrates in their tanks, but those levels never seem to go down, then later they discover its actually the high ammonia and nitrates content in their tap water that was causing all those issues.


As what UA mentioned, water need to age but these days you need to use water conditional as our tap water is treated with Chloramine in some areas. Did some reading lately, and its actually combination of Chlorine and Ammonia to form the more stable Chloramine which does not gas out as quickly as chlorine. There were some that associated the ammonia in our tap water to being chloramine.

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## Ryan Peh

So I should dechlorinate the water before leaving it for 24hrs to test?

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## Ingen

> So I should dechlorinate the water before leaving it for 24hrs to test?


If you are using Seachem Prime as the water conditioner, it should have immediate effect. I did a Chlorine test before and after adding prime and it removed chlorine almost immediately. I can't confirm for Chloramine as there's no test kit readily available in LFS for it, but Prime is supposedly applicable for Chlorine, Chloramine, ammonia and some heavy metal.

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## Urban Aquaria

> So I should dechlorinate the water before leaving it for 24hrs to test?


Can test for with and without dechlorinator and see if there is any difference... but since you will be using dechlorinator for water changes, then might as well just test with it in use.

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## Ryan Peh

I'm using Ocean Free anti chlorine. But I just bought a bottle of bio stress Guard

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## happydanio123

I'm not so sure if Seachem Prime really works..... I use it to decholorinate water for emergencies like emergency hospital however my neon tetra, after having been put in the water treated with Prime, tend to "float" and are unable to sink or control their movements in the water. Perhaps it could be because the Chemical is expired? Have been using it for some time? But I feel that no chemical beats the classical method of leaving the water overnight to evaporate the chlorine. Anyone has different opinions? This is just mine.:-)

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## tetrakid

I never use Prime or any product as there's no way for me to test whether the choloramine is removed. Thus I always prefer to use deactivated carbon to do the job. I usually buy a lot of it.

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## azman_haron

> I feel so screwed now LOL...


Lol...I can so identify with this feeling. I went through it many times in the very early days when I got into this hobby. And I wasn't aware of such forums like AQ that could have made things so much easier, and less frustrating, and less painful on my wallet.

But having made a mistake, it is best to do things right even if it means spending a little bit more, in terms of money and time. In the long run, it is cheaper....and it's probably a small price to pay for reducing heart aches, frustration and the joy of a beautifully set up tank.The cheapest way is to do it right the first time.

I have personally tried plastic inert decorations in tanks....while it may look nice on its own, when it is place next to natural plants, it becomes so obvious it just spoilt it for me. So you have to ask yourself if you can live with it. Knowing the answer now, as well as knowing what it is exactly you want in a tank, is the best way to save yourself some money, time and a lot of grief!!

Here's wishing you all the best!!

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## markus92

> I never use Prime or any product as there's no way for me to test whether the choloramine is removed. Thus I always prefer to use deactivated carbon to do the job. I usually buy a lot of it.


Activated carbon  :Smile:  not deactivated carbon

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## Ryan Peh

> Lol...I can so identify with this feeling. I went through it many times in the very early days when I got into this hobby. And I wasn't aware of such forums like AQ that could have made things so much easier, and less frustrating, and less painful on my wallet.
> 
> But having made a mistake, it is best to do things right even if it means spending a little bit more, in terms of money and time. In the long run, it is cheaper....and it's probably a small price to pay for reducing heart aches, frustration and the joy of a beautifully set up tank.The cheapest way is to do it right the first time.
> 
> I have personally tried plastic inert decorations in tanks....while it may look nice on its own, when it is place next to natural plants, it becomes so obvious it just spoilt it for me. So you have to ask yourself if you can live with it. Knowing the answer now, as well as knowing what it is exactly you want in a tank, is the best way to save yourself some money, time and a lot of grief!!
> 
> Here's wishing you all the best!!


Thanks Azman!! I saw your thread about the 10 tanks in your room!! Hope you started doing something with the huge empty tank HAHA was it a 4footer? 
Anyway, I think I'm gonna leave my tank as it is now. My fish finally looks fine and I think my tank has settled down a little. I think the only thing I need to work on is figuring how to use the drip acclimation technique. 
Currently I have:
8 Angelfishes
5 Neon Dwarf Rainbowfish 
3 Corydoras 

Things that have died during the start up includes:
3 Corydoras
6 Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish 
10+ Ghost shrimps
3 SAEs (Didn't acclimate properly) 

I hope nothing else dies from here and I can introduce a bag of 50 neon tetras in a week or so!

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## tetrakid

> Activated carbon  not deactivated carbon
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E330S using Tapatalk


Lol... my bad...  :Smile: 

Do you know where I can buy it in bulk, say in a sack or large packet?

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## markus92

I buy the ans brand. 1 kg is aproxx $6 from c328. Some say its too cheap to be good but i buy alot for my 5 ft monster fish tanks so its the cheaper option.

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## tetrakid

> I buy the ans brand. 1 kg is aproxx $6 from c328. Some say its too cheap to be good but i buy alot for my 5 ft monster fish tanks so its the cheaper option.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E330S using Tapatalk


It would be good to get it from a cheaper bulk source if possible. My idea is to do a weekly change.

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## Urban Aquaria

> I'm not so sure if Seachem Prime really works..... I use it to decholorinate water for emergencies like emergency hospital however my neon tetra, after having been put in the water treated with Prime, tend to "float" and are unable to sink or control their movements in the water. Perhaps it could be because the Chemical is expired? Have been using it for some time? But I feel that no chemical beats the classical method of leaving the water overnight to evaporate the chlorine. Anyone has different opinions? This is just mine.:-)


Seachem Prime definitely does work as i have done tests to measure the chlorine levels before and after its used... though there could be a possibility that expired solutions might not work as effectively, so have to check the expiry date.

Aging water does naturally allow chlorine to dissipate from the water, though the chloramine content is more stable and tends to say in it for a much longer time.

As for what you experienced when transferring fishes from your main tank into an emergency hospital tank with tap water newly treated with Seachem Prime, did you drip acclimate those fishes to the new tank environment? If not, the fishes reaction is most likely due to the drastic change in water conditions from your main tank to the new tank, this is especially so if the entire water volume of the hospital tank was filled directly with de-chlorinate tap water, the initial oxygen levels may be too low so that puts alot of extra stress on the fishes.

When setting up emergency hospital tanks and transferring fishes in quickly, its always best to use back the old tank water so that the water conditions are not drastically changed, then do a series of water changes to allow for slow acclimation. If you intend to fill the tank with only new dechlorinated tap water, then it should ideally be aerated with an air stone or just let it sit for a few hours so that it restores its oxygen content before usage.

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## Ryan Peh

Hi guys!! I have a question regarding water changes... 
I connect a hose to my tap and extend it all the way to my tank! 
So I only add water conditioner into my tank while the water is flowing into the tank. 
Does everyone do that? 
Or do they actually pour water into a bucket, mix with anti chlorine first, then pour into the tank?

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## xKimi

I used to do the bucket way but it got too tiring and messy after a while so I bought an anti-chlorine filtration system. 

You can still use your current method, just remember the amount of water conditioner you have to add is to the whole tank volume.


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## Ryan Peh

Whole tank volume??? It's not just the amount of tap water I added in??? Holy shit is that why the beneficial bacterias aren't growing enough LOL

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## xKimi

Yikes.. Just remember to add more from now.


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## Ryan Peh

Alright thank you so much!! I'm doing another water change tomorrow! 
I'm also adding frogbits into my tank to help remove nitrates so I can do water changes just biweekly

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