# Other Aquarium Forums > Freshwater Fauna > Cichlids >  ID: Need Help to ID Fish - Balloon Ram

## fisherw

Can some helpful and more experienced forumer help in IDing this pair of fish?



Also, can the pair be "sexed" from the photo?

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## Wackytpt

What are you trying to ask here? For someone to ID the fishes or to ID if it is a pair?

Kindly be specific in your question.

If you are asking what fishes are these, they are Balloon Rams

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## ranmasatome

I think he is asking for both.

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## fisherw

Sorry. Thought I was quite clear. Two questions.

Firstly, ID the fish. Balloon Rams, thank you.

Then, whether they can be sexed. I assume they are males but can one tell?

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## fisherw

> I think he is asking for both.


Yes, quite right. Thank you.

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## Wackytpt

Think a clearer picture might help to sex if they are a pair.  :Smile:

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## fisherw

I have googled based on the name you provided. Thanks. Looks like I have a pair of males unless they are still juveniles and sexual differences are not clear yet. Will wait and watch.

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## EvolutionZ

they are german rams.. ballon or holland ram are less colour... i believe both are male too.. they are quite agreesive fishes.. i have them before.. eat my shrimps adult also.. but living with other fishes are fine

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## fisherw

Thanks, EvolutionZ. Some sites, particularly this:

http://www.aquariumlife.net/profiles...ram/100051.asp

treat the 2, i.e. balloon rams and german rams, as names for the same specie (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, Apistogramma ramirezi, Microgeophagus ramirezi, Papilochromis ramirezi).

Mine, however, are more round, much like a discus. The various photos I have seen show a longish (like many of the apistos) shape. One forum I came across (can't locate it now, may post it if I can find it again), suggests (one forumer's opinion) that the shape is caused by hormones and make the fish more delicate (i.e. die easily unless conditions such as water, are very good). Have you seen the rounder ones? Have you come across the hormone "reason" mentioned above?

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## fisherw

> they are german rams.. ballon or holland ram are less colour... i believe both are male too.. they are quite agreesive fishes.. i have them b4.. eat my shrimps adult also.. but living with other fishes are fine


I believe both of mine are males too. Question. Did yours spawn when you had them? Wondering if they need a cave like the apistos mentioned in a number of threads here? Mine is a community tank and unless they guard the eggs in a cave, the eggs won't stand a chance. Might look for a female if there is at least a chance.

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## Quixotic

German, Holland or balloon rams are most probably the same species, _M. ramirezi_. See post 11.

http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=27292

In the wild and naturally occuring, they look like this.

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## valice

> they are german rams.. ballon or holland ram are less colour... i believe both are male too.. they are quite agreesive fishes.. i have them b4.. eat my shrimps adult also.. but living with other fishes are fine


They are not german rams. They are balloon rams. Anything that is round, are classified as balloons. Balloons are abit like abinos, where they are random gene mutations. But Asian farms decide that they are cute, and mass breed these traits and we get them mass marketed all over the world.

Btw, from the pictures, they do look like two males. The one of the right is clearly a male from the black lateral spot. As for the one on the left, I need a clearer picture on the lateral spot and also the dorsal fins.

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## fisherw

Okay. Very much like balloon mollies. Know what you mean.

Regrettably, both look very alike dorsal fin wise. The spines in front are very pronounced and the trailing end are very sharp. Two males, I would say.

Searched the forums. Came across one (http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ead.php?t=9168)

seems they spawn in an open depression. But protective parents like some (most?) cichlids.

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## Wackytpt

> they are german rams.. ballon or holland ram are less colour... i believe both are male too.. they are quite agreesive fishes.. i have them before.. eat my shrimps adult also.. but living with other fishes are fine


German Rams? 

Hi Evolution, kindly do a search on the net to see how a German ram looks like. There is a great difference bewteen a German Ram And a Balloon Ram.

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## mictok

They are Holland Balloon Rams and looks like two male to me.If you are keen to get the female,go to seletar farmway,Sea view aquarium,they have a batch of female available.

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## fisherw

Thanks, mictok.

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## Quixotic

I still don't get why someone would refer to them as Holland or German rams.

Holland or German rams, as I understand it, are only called so because there are bred specifically in Holland or German and coveted because of the quality.

Balloon rams on the other hand are variants that are bred in Asian farms as mentioned by valice, and therefore, rather inappropriate to be referred as Holland or German balloon rams... unless someone can positively know that these are balloon rams that are bred in Holland or German.

However, all of them are of the species _M. ramirezi_. So it is suffice to just call these balloon rams, or simply, rams.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...article_id=205

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## mictok

Well,we just follow what the aquarium shop say,dont know the specific country it comes from,only God will know.

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## Quixotic

Don't get me wrong, this is not to point fingers or blame anyone. The intention is to highlight why it is called what it is, and point out that it is a misnomer.

Unfortunately, LFS are not in the business of scientifically identifying fishes, which is why you came here to find out what they are.  :Wink: 

And I can tell you for sure, these balloons definitely come from Asian farms.

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## valice

You know, the interesting thing is sometimes when you go to an LFS, the shop guy will tell you not to believe whatever you read on the forums. So who's correct?

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## DazzleDiscus

depends  :Wink:

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## EvolutionZ

so sorry that i called it german ram.. there was once i went to a LFS and i saw a similar ram like urs and that LFS boss told me that its german ram instead of ballon ram.. so i thought that it was a german ram.. so sorry..

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## fisherw

EvolutionZ. Not a problem as far as I am concerned. I do not expect everyone to be correct just that all information is given in good faith (i.e. you must believe it is true as you do in this case). Anyway, all information, even those not entirely correct, provides clues to search over the internet. I take this as a learning experience as hopefully, you do to.

The big problem I find is that certain lfs do not provide names or if they do, incorrect ones or non-standard ones (especially with plants). Also, as valice points out, they would like you to believe they are right. Often this is just to make a sale.

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## EvolutionZ

ya.. a lot LFS dun don't give proper name to those fishes..

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## mictok

Well, at the end of the day we cant change the brand name of japanese car that manufacture in Thailand.

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## Quixotic

But German or Holland rams are NOT scientific names, they are merely common names for farm bred fishes from there. If there is a common name that is applicable for all, then it should just be... rams.  :Wink: 

This is why we encourage the use of scientifc names.

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## budak

Read here for more information on why scientific names are used to ID fish compared to arbitrary common names:
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...article_id=108
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...ton_Names.html
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...ksby_Name.html
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/..._Taxonomy.html
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/fi.../fishnames.htm

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## Ah_ZhaN

> Read here for more information on why scientific names are used to ID fish compared to arbitrary common names:
> http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...article_id=108
> http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...ton_Names.html
> http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...ksby_Name.html
> http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/..._Taxonomy.html
> http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/fi.../fishnames.htm


Those are great articles and readups. Perhaps we should put them up as sticky to encourage the use of scientific names for this wonderful hobby.  :Well done:

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## Shadow

So which one is the scientific name for RAMs? I did some search and come up with 3 names: Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, Apistogramma ramirezi, Papilochromis ramirezi. Assuming that Balloon rams, German rams and holland rams are all the same species, shouldn't it be only one scientific name then?

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## Quixotic

> However, all of them are of the species _M. ramirezi_.


_Apistogramma ramirezi_ or _Papilochromis ramirezi_ were old names used for the fish before they were scientifically examined. Upon examination, it was decided that they should really belong to the genus _Mikrogeophagus_.

_A. ramirezi_ and _P. ramirezi_ are now considered as synonyms for _M. ramirezi_.

Take note that there is another species of Ram in the genus _Mikrogeophagus_, which is the Bolivian Ram, _M. altispinosus_.

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## Shadow

OK thanks for the info and sorry for digging up old thread

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